Config
Log for #openttd on 19th February 2014:
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08:02:51  <dihedral> good morning
08:14:21  <Xaroth|Work> o/
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11:46:51  <roboboy> hello
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11:47:00  <TheStevens> hello
11:48:23  * roboboy looks forward to having another crack at Python development once he gets help with his project
11:54:48  <planetmaker> roboboy, I used http://pywikipediabot.wikia.com/wiki/Pybot_Wiki to semi-automatically edit the newgrf wiki when its content was transitioned from ttdpatch wiki to its current place. It uses tt-f account
11:55:54  <planetmaker> at least I think it was that kind of bot
11:57:31  <roboboy> Ok. does it log in using the tt-f log in system or the wiki login system? I would think they are different but linked
11:57:46  <planetmaker> probably the wiki one, yes
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12:04:34  <peter1139> Debian 9.0 code name announced - Zurg!
12:07:47  <Xaroth|Work> heh
12:08:46  <peter1139> Really ought to do some upgrades...
12:09:51  <MNIM> peter1139: future debian offshoots will henceforth be called 'zurglings'
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12:14:18  <roboboy> will see what gets posted on the Python newsgroup regarding my code
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12:30:23  <roboboy> I wonder if I have to fill out the entire login form or can get away with just filling out the username and password fields
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12:34:08  <Xaroth|Work> wtf are you trying to do, roboboy ?
12:35:55  <planetmaker> writing a spam bot. But calling it a forum administration bot :P
12:36:05  <roboboy> :P
12:38:21  <roboboy> once I sort out how to log in, it will just give me a list of users to ban. If it successfully gives me a list for a week or so that has no genuine users in it then I will look to make it do the banning for me :)
12:40:14  <Xaroth|Work> tried mechanize?
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12:42:26  <roboboy> no. Will have a look at it later as I should go to bed soon plus I want to see what crops up on usenet. It looks like it may be easier to use. I was suggested requests by someone on here so thats what I started using
12:44:10  <Elyon> !!
12:44:54  <planetmaker> roboboy, but maybe you should search for spambots and mofiy one of those :D
12:45:28  <roboboy> I tried to but most of Google's results were for dealing with them :P
12:46:09  <roboboy> or they were about phpBB mods that implemented bot features which is no good for us
12:52:13  <roboboy> gnight peoples
12:55:19  <planetmaker> g'night
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14:11:58  <Taede> is it known that svn.openttd.org gives a 502 bad gateway atm?
14:13:23  <V453000> NOT KNOWN BY ME
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14:30:28  <planetmaker> Taede, use hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/
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15:33:52  <Taede> does that mean i need to use mercurial instead of svn?
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15:48:19  <peter1139> heh
15:48:55  <peter1139> svn+ssh still works ;)
16:02:01  <Taede> svn:// instead of http:// works too
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16:10:15  <Belugas> hello
16:16:50  <peter1139> :)
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17:16:03  <planetmaker> Taede, it's only the web interface which always oom crashes
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17:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause> just make a cronjob which tests memory usage, and kill the process before it goes oom?
17:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (and immediately restart it)
17:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> or skip the test and just restart the process anyway, every X days
17:54:03  <planetmaker> or simply discontinue the service to offer web interface to svn
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17:58:29  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that thing is called ulimit
17:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but that doesn't automatically restart
17:59:24  <frosch123> but it kills
17:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what i mean is a "watchdog"
17:59:33  <frosch123> first kill, then think or so
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18:30:07  <Rubidium> if only it were OOM crashing; then it would fix itself
18:30:26  <Rubidium> the problem is that it doesn't OOM crash, but just stops functioning properly
18:31:13  <Rubidium> ... but it doesn't crash
18:31:23  <Rubidium> so there is nothing telling it isn't functioning or it is functioning
18:31:49  <Rubidium> also, AFAIK, the amount of memory it uses just after starting compared to non-functional is somewhat equivalent
18:32:00  <Rubidium> (it likes to allocate as much memory as possible it seems)
18:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> then just go for the "always kill" variant
18:32:38  <Rubidium> but after how long?
18:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause> like every week at 4AM (CET).
18:32:55  <Rubidium> cause it has been getting into this state after a few minutes
18:33:20  <Rubidium> it mainly seems to depend on what info is accessed, but I'm not sure which it is exactly
18:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or make a proper watchdog actually testing the functionality
18:34:13  <Rubidium> alternatively we just trash tracd
18:34:40  <Rubidium> even though it seems to be the least ugly interface
18:35:37  * Eddi|zuHause just has an image in his head of a computer ejecting the CD drive to hit another computer's reset button
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18:41:13  <Wolf01> o/
18:42:58  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: do computers still have reset buttons? Why did they even have them in the first place, since it's nothing more than power off - power on
18:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> my computer has a reset button, but it's kinda sunken into the case, so it's difficult to hit
18:45:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26355 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt portuguese.txt) (2014-02-19 18:45:15 UTC)
18:45:24  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:25  <DorpsGek> czech - 4 changes by djst
18:45:26  <DorpsGek> portuguese - 1 changes by babribeiro
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19:16:32  <andythenorth> o/
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19:34:22  <andythenorth> shame that new airports never went anywhere
19:34:50  <planetmaker> well. They went somewhere. They went half-way
19:35:03  <planetmaker> they actually went 3/4 way
19:35:19  <planetmaker> there's a feature airport for newgrfs. You can define arbitrary airports
19:35:28  <planetmaker> the only thing you cannot define is a new statemachine
19:35:48  <planetmaker> thus it's one property which is missing newgrf specs
19:36:36  <andythenorth> indeed :)
19:36:43  <andythenorth> although on the plus side...
19:36:54  <andythenorth> we don't have newgrfs with a confusing number of pointless airports
19:37:03  <andythenorth> there's no debate about enforcing an airport-type spec
19:37:07  <andythenorth> there are no bug reports
19:37:15  <planetmaker> the first thing we would likely see is gigantolomaniac airports newgrf :)
19:37:21  <andythenorth> no copyright-infringement-of-graphics drama
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19:37:31  <planetmaker> lol. Graphics are all there :)
19:37:36  <andythenorth> missing features ftw :P
19:40:03  <andythenorth> this game is currently fun
19:40:07  <andythenorth> although it's laggy on my mac
19:40:19  <andythenorth> scrolling is like glue
19:40:50  <andythenorth> fuck me, it's way more fluid in full-screen :o
19:41:01  <planetmaker> ho?
19:41:04  <Alberth> some people tend to be reverting to an older idea, having in-game buildable airports
19:41:47  <Alberth> (it's not me, I haven't decided about that idea :) )
19:41:51  <planetmaker> yep, saw something like that some time ago
19:41:59  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm on Mavericks - windowed mode is noticeably slow to drag the map
19:42:00  <planetmaker> I don't know :)
19:42:05  <andythenorth> full-screen is silky smooth
19:42:13  <planetmaker> interesting :)
19:42:14  <andythenorth> and in-game buildable airports sucks
19:42:20  <planetmaker> why do they?
19:42:26  <planetmaker> ingame buildable stations don't suck either
19:42:30  <andythenorth> true
19:42:40  <andythenorth> file it under andythenorth is wrong
19:42:41  <Alberth> it's an openttd property :p
19:43:04  <andythenorth> why do I have so many FMSP piling up :(
19:43:07  <andythenorth> stupid game
19:43:15  <andythenorth> I should deliver fewer :P
19:43:23  <Alberth> nah :p
19:43:24  <planetmaker> your cows don't eat and don't shit enough, I guess
19:43:32  <planetmaker> probably they're not nuts enough :D
19:43:46  * planetmaker is silly
19:44:24  <Alberth> are there cows too there?
19:44:57  <Alberth> I believe cats and flying pigs, but cows?
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19:46:19  <planetmaker> I never know which animal is which :D
19:47:07  <Alberth> :)
19:47:33  <andythenorth> hrm
19:47:37  <andythenorth> HEQS won't build for me
19:47:45  <andythenorth> I haven't built it for a *very* long time
19:47:50  <andythenorth> [CPP] heqs.cnfo
19:47:51  <andythenorth> sed: RE error: illegal byte sequence
19:48:14  <andythenorth> probably change in my system is incompatible, or a missing thing
19:48:35  <planetmaker> let's see
19:48:39  <Alberth> BSD sed instead of Gnu sed?
19:49:51  <andythenorth> p'raps
19:49:53  <planetmaker> he... it doesn't build for me after make clean. but needs calling it twice... something fishy there
19:50:01  <andythenorth> hrm
19:50:11  <andythenorth> also it's not reftting clay, which was what I was going to fix
19:50:16  <andythenorth> but I'm sure it used to
19:51:10  <andythenorth> maybe Clay gained 'covered' class or something
19:51:15  <andythenorth> refitting is a pita
19:51:47  <Alberth> all these opengfx-mars build are just test for nml?  there do not seem to be updates to the project
19:52:02  <Alberth> *builds, *tests
19:54:02  <andythenorth> one thing I am not going to moan about is Iron Horse
19:54:06  <andythenorth> I kind of like it
19:54:18  <andythenorth> I think it's good enough to suggest other people try it
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19:55:06  <planetmaker> Albert, yes, likely. I haven't exactly found time yet...
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19:55:36  <planetmaker> I declared opengfx-mars a test project for nml
19:58:41  <andythenorth> hmm
19:58:48  <andythenorth> someone still needs to make a truck set
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20:02:37  <andythenorth> is there an practical objection to partial load orders?
20:02:43  <andythenorth> or minimum load?
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20:12:39  <Alberth> more complicated orders perhaps
20:12:49  <Alberth> no idea what cdist assumes here
20:13:24  <Alberth> it does have a hard time with the conditional order thingies
20:14:20  <andythenorth> aiui, cdist would be fine with a minimum load order
20:15:21  <Alberth> I have been wondering whether it tries to be too smart
20:15:29  <Alberth> but never really looked into it
20:15:45  <andythenorth> the minimum load order would allow network headroom
20:16:00  <andythenorth> it might be addressing a failing of FIRS though, dunno
20:16:08  <Alberth> yeah, after playing some cdist games, I can see the idea
20:16:14  <andythenorth> FIRS has horrible feedback cycles
20:16:39  <andythenorth> delivering supplies causes primary production to increase, which jams networks, which can cause supplies to fail
20:16:40  <Alberth> people will like them :p
20:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's even worse with ECS
20:17:08  <Alberth> obviously you have to build a separate network for supplies :p
20:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's way more fragile
20:17:26  <andythenorth> even with separate networks, ultimately stuff is connected
20:17:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I'd not call that bad feedback cycle. Increasing production is the *aim* of the supplies. And whoever feeds supplies to industries knows the consequences
20:17:33  <andythenorth> somewhere, there's always a connection
20:17:42  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yeah, and I wouldn't want to remove it
20:17:46  <andythenorth> but there's no way to win, at all
20:17:55  <planetmaker> win in what way?
20:18:05  <andythenorth> you either have vehicles backed up waiting, or massive cargo piles
20:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you're just doing it wrong :)
20:18:15  <Alberth> I have that idea with cdist and connect all industries at the map :p
20:18:21  <planetmaker> I don't see that happening too much
20:18:39  <planetmaker> the either too many vehicles or too big piles
20:18:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you mostly use trains, with escape depots and such?
20:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm certainly not the expert, as i end up transporting passengers mostly
20:18:59  <planetmaker> I use trains. But not necessarily escape depots
20:19:10  <Alberth> safe choice, Eddi :)
20:19:27  <planetmaker> Usually I just build two-tracked stations for starters and add 3 trains
20:19:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not by choice, they are just trumping averything
20:19:40  <planetmaker> and more when the station runs empty of a loading train
20:20:18  <planetmaker> so there are usually just enough trains so that one or two are constantly loading. Sometimes there may be one or two additional waiting
20:20:26  <planetmaker> But I have separate drop and pickup stations
20:20:36  <planetmaker> so pickup doesn't block drop
20:20:36  <andythenorth> my problem is worst with big farm clusters
20:20:39  <andythenorth> and reverse feeders
20:20:48  <andythenorth> they are very sensitive to under delivery
20:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> try schedules
20:20:56  <andythenorth> and over delivery is ugly
20:21:37  <planetmaker> slight over-delivery is a safe thing :)
20:21:40  <Alberth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx-mars-graphics/repository/entry/Buildings/Stockpiles/Stockpiles_MixedOres_8bpp.png  any idea why zephyris has this weird configuration of stock pile graphics?
20:22:09  <Eddi|zuHause> no clue
20:25:48  <frosch123> Alberth: amount and random?
20:26:48  <Alberth> sounds like a good option
20:27:30  <planetmaker> my bet is with frosch's suggestion
20:42:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26356 /trunk/bin/baseset (3 files) (2014-02-19 20:42:33 UTC)
20:42:49  <DorpsGek> -Update: Baseset translations.
20:45:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I may muck with heqs makefile and stuff?
20:45:42  <andythenorth> sure :)
20:46:04  <planetmaker> I'll adopt isr's solution. which is based on the much newer make-nml
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20:54:37  <planetmaker> wow. Long ago that something happend to heqs. But CF built it with the Makefile change
20:55:07  <planetmaker> so try to pull, andythenorth
20:55:26  <planetmaker> I'll commit another cleanup commit, but that will not interfere with anything you do, very most likely
20:56:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26357 trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp (2014-02-19 20:56:44 UTC)
20:56:51  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5845]: Some order options do not combine with others. (3298)
20:57:25  <planetmaker> that nick is always in for confusion :)
20:57:32  <planetmaker> not the person, just that nick
20:57:34  <frosch123> yup :)
20:58:02  <frosch123> most patchers i can credit without looking up their exact name again
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21:08:36  <andythenorth> planetmaker: wonder if it's due to OS X dev tools (clang) http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3116/
21:10:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what sed version do you have?
21:10:41  <planetmaker> it fails with sed and that causes the rest
21:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause> does that have an option to display which commands it actually tries to execute? like "-x" or so?
21:11:02  <planetmaker> make _V=
21:11:19  <V453000> NO
21:11:19  <planetmaker> but sed is sed. I need the version. The regex works here
21:11:27  <V453000> no _V=
21:11:41  <planetmaker> yes, _V=beer
21:11:42  <planetmaker> does, too
21:11:54  <andythenorth> how do I find sed version?
21:11:56  <V453000> OH
21:11:59  <V453000> that works
21:12:01  <andythenorth> google was not my friend
21:12:09  <planetmaker> sed --version
21:12:33  <andythenorth> illegal option
21:12:34  <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, try "-v"
21:12:48  <planetmaker> or -h
21:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> or "man sed"
21:13:07  <planetmaker> probably BSD sed then. hm
21:13:45  <andythenorth> it's BSD sed
21:14:00  <planetmaker> which version?
21:14:10  <Eddi|zuHause> bad planetmaker, using nonstandard regexp :p
21:14:20  <planetmaker> tsk :)
21:14:52  <planetmaker> perhaps I should call it GnuMakefile :P
21:17:07  <planetmaker> andythenorth, can you also paste the output of make _V=
21:17:10  <planetmaker> please?
21:19:33  <planetmaker> andythenorth, maybe try also to replace each occurance of sed by sed -E in Makefile
21:22:26  <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/sedE.diff
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21:32:49  <planetmaker> ping andythenorth ?
21:39:11  <andythenorth> sorry - working on something else :)
21:40:03  <andythenorth> planetmaker: fails, same errors afaict
21:40:54  <planetmaker> well. can't test that. My mac is at work
21:41:12  <planetmaker> and I don't know which sed fails due to missing output of make _V=
21:45:09  <frosch123> what does -E do?
21:45:31  <planetmaker> treat arguments as "modern" regular expressions
21:45:56  <frosch123> that's a grep option, no sed option
21:45:58  <planetmaker> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/sed.1.html
21:46:23  <planetmaker> sed as well
21:46:49  <planetmaker> at least on BSD one. And my sed didn't complain either
21:47:31  <frosch123> some of the sed have "-e", others don'T
21:47:43  <planetmaker> -e is not -E
21:47:58  <planetmaker> and -e is used in the Makefile
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21:49:02  <frosch123> well, "illegal byte sequence" actually sounds more like a BOM or so
21:50:14  <planetmaker> the sed replaces {{GRF_ID}}, {IRC Log Viewer} and {{REPO_VERSION}} by actual replacements. CPP stumbles over {{
21:53:25  <planetmaker> looking at my man pages of sed I wonder why it didn't complain about -E though
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21:59:58  <frosch123> night
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22:33:02  <fixidixi> hey
22:33:37  <fixidixi> could you please tell me how could i create a bit more complex orders for trains?
22:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause> click on the buttons?
22:34:57  <fixidixi> like i fill the train with raw materials on station 1 and empty it on station 2. then i pack up the goods ive just created
22:35:20  <fixidixi> but how do i tell the train that when it arrives at station 1 it should 'deliver' the cargo
22:35:27  <fixidixi> and shouldnt fill it
22:35:52  <fixidixi> so how do i specify how are different things handeled?
22:35:55  <planetmaker> goto A
22:35:57  <planetmaker> goto B
22:35:58  <Eddi|zuHause> did you refit the wagons?
22:36:10  <fixidixi> yea i did. my problem is
22:36:20  <planetmaker> that does the load and unload. Don't use transfer, if you didn't look up what it does
22:36:52  <planetmaker> no explicit load or unload orders are needed by default
22:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> use "unload and leave empty"
22:36:54  <fixidixi> that now it unloads the goods at station 1, but then packs up oil and packs up the goods also it just delivered
22:37:25  <fixidixi> ok im going to be specific to this case:
22:38:21  <fixidixi> i pack up oil in station 1. deliver & unload it @ station 2. then pack the goods the refinery created. then head back for more oil at station one
22:38:28  <fixidixi> but there is also a city nearby
22:38:49  <fixidixi> so i tought the train could 'transfer' the goods
22:39:04  <fixidixi> then another train/car could deliver the goods in the city
22:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> "transfer" means "do NOT deliver"
22:39:25  <fixidixi> sorry my english is bad
22:39:39  <fixidixi> so yea i want the goods to stay at the station
22:39:48  <fixidixi> so another line can take care of it
22:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well that doesn't work properly
22:40:02  <fixidixi> my problem is
22:40:23  <fixidixi> that i dont know how to tell the train this:
22:40:29  <planetmaker> two-way transfers don't work well
22:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you use 1.4.0-beta, you can enable cargo distribution, which will transfer stuff automatically
22:40:33  <fixidixi> transfer goods & load all oil
22:40:36  <planetmaker> unless you get ^
22:40:41  <andythenorth> I hate FIRS farm clusters
22:40:46  <andythenorth> they look very pretty
22:40:49  <planetmaker> I love them!
22:40:53  <andythenorth> but they are an absolute PITA to service
22:40:59  <planetmaker> really not
22:41:16  <fixidixi> Eddi|zuHause: now im playin beta 3
22:41:24  <planetmaker> one central supply station. Which gets supplies by trains. And small vehicles from there deliver to farms
22:41:31  <andythenorth> I have 15 farms in this cluster
22:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> fixidixi: yes. then you can enable cargo distribution in the settings
22:41:35  <fixidixi> sorry beta4
22:41:46  <planetmaker> by road. goto depot, goto farm1, goto depot, goto farm2, goto depot, goto farm3
22:41:58  <andythenorth> hmm, round robin
22:42:00  <andythenorth> interesting
22:42:01  <planetmaker> so 5 vehicles
22:42:12  <planetmaker> maybe 8. depends on distances
22:42:45  <andythenorth> how do you stop the stations blocking?
22:43:06  <andythenorth> you need 1 drop off and 2 pick stations at each farm
22:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause> guide the loading and unloading vehicles through different "waypoints"
22:43:18  <andythenorth> every farm ends up surrounded by roads
22:43:22  <planetmaker> that supply station is a supply station. Not a pickup
22:43:30  <planetmaker> or use waypoints and dedicated tracks
22:43:45  <andythenorth> what are you doing for pick up?
22:43:46  <planetmaker> every farm only needs two loading bays
22:43:50  <planetmaker> also one special drop
22:44:13  <fixidixi> thanks
22:44:19  <fixidixi> Eddi|zuHause: i cant find this option
22:44:19  <planetmaker> and stations are parallel, not sequential :)
22:44:23  <planetmaker> the road stations that is
22:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> fixidixi: might need to adjust the filter
22:44:33  <fixidixi> where is it located?(im playing a localized version :/)
22:44:45  <fixidixi> i mean which subsection is it
22:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> fixidixi: on the top there's a filter "basic settings", "advanced settings" etc.
22:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause> fixidixi: it's a category of its own
22:46:55  <fixidixi> is this the one im looking for?: (sorry im trying to translate it back): cargo handling: 3 options one of them is something like
22:47:11  <fixidixi> only unload cargo at station if its needed
22:48:53  <planetmaker> no
22:49:14  <fixidixi> oh think i got it
22:49:34  <fixidixi> dirstribution graph recalculation etc
22:50:34  <fixidixi> well these options are beyond me
22:50:56  <planetmaker> you don't want to touch those usually.
22:51:02  <planetmaker> just enable cargo distribution
22:52:55  <fixidixi> which is the one?
22:53:04  <fixidixi> i only see options for days
22:53:36  <fixidixi> and assimetric, simmetric or manual distrubitons
22:53:57  <fixidixi> for passangers, mail, armoured, etc
22:54:01  <planetmaker> distribution for ... : {symmetric, asymmetric, manual}
22:54:06  <planetmaker> manual is off.
22:54:11  <fixidixi> oh
22:54:30  <planetmaker> possibly badly named
22:54:51  * andythenorth station walks
22:54:54  <fixidixi> i see
22:55:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:56:25  <fixidixi> well it didnt help :%
22:56:33  <fixidixi> train still packs the goods back
22:56:38  <fixidixi> well have a nice day
22:56:47  <fixidixi> thanks for the effort
22:56:51  <fixidixi> see ya!
22:56:52  <fixidixi> by
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22:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist takes a little time to kick in
22:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it needs to figure out the routes you have connected first
23:03:14  <andythenorth> good night
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