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Log for #openttd on 29th March 2014:
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04:24:24  <supermop> do i need to download anything to write an ai or can i just do it in notepad?
04:24:57  <Supercheese> Notepad should work fine from what I understand
04:36:14  <supermop> ok
04:36:27  <supermop> then i just save the files as .nut?
04:41:58  <Supercheese> pretty much
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04:42:34  <Supercheese> https://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Main_Page
04:42:38  <Supercheese> and https://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Introduction
04:54:03  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
04:54:05  <Flygon> Wait, so
04:54:09  <Flygon> Is Slough a suburb of London?
04:54:13  <Flygon> Or an independant town?
04:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause> how would we know?
04:56:37  <Flygon> Aren't some of you British?
04:58:26  <Supercheese> Well, let's see, it's 10 PM here, they're 8 hours ahead...
04:58:32  <Supercheese> that'd be about 6 am
04:59:03  <Supercheese> might wait a bit ;)
04:59:41  <Flygon> Ah, right, right
04:59:42  <Flygon> Sorry
04:59:45  <Flygon> 4PM here
05:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually 5AM in britain (because europe is not on DST yet)
05:06:06  <Supercheese> I figured it might be off, hence the "about"; stupid daylight savings
05:06:25  <Supercheese> we should just get rid of it
05:06:33  <Supercheese> the GameFAQs poll agreed with me IIRC
05:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "random poll on the internet agrees" is surely a strong argument
05:07:16  <Supercheese> huh, actually it didn't
05:07:18  <Supercheese> so nevermind
05:07:22  <Supercheese> was a 50-50 split
05:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody was ever stopped by facts :p
05:07:46  <Supercheese> true 'nuff
05:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> or do you think any of the "<incumbent> has created/destroyed X jobs" arguments in elections is based on facts?
05:10:05  <Supercheese> I think no political argument has been based in fact for a very long time, if ever
05:10:36  <Supercheese> the only reliable political candidate metric is voting record, really
05:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> or let's talk about powells UN speech
05:10:50  <Supercheese> and if they're a newcomer, they have no record
05:12:34  <Eddi|zuHause> or this alleged "fact" that there's something "illegal" happening on crimea (there probably is, but there's no reason to believe that it's more illegal than the rest of the stuff happening)
05:13:49  <Supercheese> I haven't the foggiest idea why our political leaders here think crimea is any of their business
05:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's about natural gas and economical influence.
05:14:52  <Supercheese> there's probably business interests somewhere that are lobbying like mad
05:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "we bought this country, so we want the WHOLE country"
05:15:05  <Supercheese> -_-
05:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, everything that happened since the fall of the iron curtain was the west trying to diminish the influence of russia. that ranges from including poland into NATO to the georgia war
05:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> now and culminated in taking (and probably funding) sides in the ukrainian maidan revolution
05:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> by "funding" i mean "CIA black budgets"
05:18:28  <Supercheese> I don't doubt it
05:18:49  <Supercheese> wouldn't surprise me really
05:19:23  <Flygon> Meanwhile in Australia, we're spending millions on lifeboats to deport asylum seekers to Indoneasia
05:19:29  <Flygon> Pretty much the whole world makes no sense
05:20:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: that is certainly better than what italian navy is doing to boats coming from africa
05:20:52  <Flygon> ...the Italians figured out a method of breaking human rights laws even further?
05:21:02  <Flygon> What?
05:22:35  <Supercheese> it seems the Italians have been tormenting Africans in one way or another for millennia
05:25:39  <Flygon> So the Italians are like a slightly less evil version of the British?
05:26:04  <Supercheese> Well, the Romans enslaved the British for a rather long time...
05:26:28  <Flygon> The British colonized Australia and ruined it D:
05:28:10  <Supercheese> The phrase "<European country> colonized <other location> and ruined it" is valid nearly everywhere outside of europe...
05:28:25  <Supercheese> at least from certain points of view
05:30:03  <Flygon> Show me any other nation that somehow managed to make the letter D silent despite it being a starting letter
05:30:31  <Flygon> eg. Djerriwarrh
05:30:41  <Flygon> ...in fact
05:30:47  <Supercheese> Djinn
05:30:49  <Supercheese> isn't that arabic?
05:30:56  <Flygon> That whole word is not pronounced as literally as it's typped
05:30:58  <Flygon> And, right
05:31:01  <Flygon> I forgot Djinn is a word
05:31:04  <Flygon> Touche
05:31:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the latest scandal was actually greek navy, but i can't find the article
05:31:19  <Supercheese> to be fair, they don't use the Latin alphabet
05:31:50  <Supercheese> so Djinn may indeed be the fault of English transliterators
05:32:03  <Flygon> Hm
05:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the D in Djinn is not silent :p
05:32:17  <Flygon> Perhaps they wanted to differentiate from the liquor?
05:32:26  <Supercheese> Djinn and tonic
05:32:28  <Supercheese> hah
05:32:42  <Supercheese> sounds like an episode title for a bad sitcom
05:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> "dj" is probably one letter in arabic anyway
05:33:33  <Flygon> That could've easily been the title of a Big Bang Theory episode
05:33:36  <Flygon> One of the early ones
05:33:37  <Flygon> :B
05:34:37  <supermop> where in australia are you Flygon?
05:34:44  <Flygon> Victoria
05:34:49  <Supercheese> I was thinking one of those bartending sitcoms, Cheers or such
05:34:55  <Flygon> Ah, you're Victorian too!
05:35:21  <Flygon> THE BRITISH RUINED OUR RAIL GAUGE D:
05:35:32  <supermop> huh?
05:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they ruined OUR rail gauge
05:35:53  <Flygon> You guys use 1600mm too?
05:35:54  <supermop> i am living in victoria but not victorian
05:36:10  <Flygon> supermop: So?
05:36:17  <Flygon> I'm half-New South Welsh
05:36:17  <Eddi|zuHause> germany copied the british rail gauge of 1435mm
05:36:34  <Flygon> Eddi: Australia was suppose to be universally 1600mm
05:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause> some parts of germany tried 1600mm and the dutch tried 2000mm
05:36:45  <Flygon> SA, NSW, and Vic signed an agreement in the 1850s or somesuch
05:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but it didn't stick
05:36:56  <Flygon> But the guy engineering lines in NSW died, and got replaced by a Scott
05:37:00  <Flygon> And... okay, so
05:37:05  <Flygon> The Scottish ruined Australian railways :U
05:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i think spain uses 1600-ish mm
05:37:46  <Flygon> They use a wider gauge
05:37:49  <Flygon> 1688mm or somesuch
05:37:54  <Flygon> Not compatible
05:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can blame the british for lots of things
05:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> like driving on left
05:41:12  <Flygon> Pssh
05:41:15  <Flygon> I'd rather the left than the right
05:41:48  <Supercheese> I'd actually like to drive on the left, but that's likely because I'm left-handed
05:42:01  <Supercheese> I'm sure all the right-handed folk prefer it as it is here
05:42:03  <Flygon> I'm left handed, but I drive an auto
05:42:26  <Supercheese> It'd be better if the handbrake were on my left, but eh
05:42:51  <Flygon> Point is
05:43:00  <Flygon> This 1600mm vs 1435mm gauge difference ruined Australia
05:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i've only driven an automatic car one single time in my life
05:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that was totally confusing
05:43:34  <Supercheese> I've only driven a manual transmission once in my life :(
05:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> *do not try to step on the clutch!!!*
05:43:54  <supermop> haha
05:44:00  <Supercheese> the last manual car our family owned was sold in 2005
05:44:08  <supermop> i dislike automatics
05:44:17  <supermop> but its all you can rent here
05:44:18  <Supercheese> so I've simply never had occasion to try
05:44:29  <supermop> and i sold my car in 2008
05:44:32  <Supercheese> likely manuals can get superior fuel economy
05:44:38  <Supercheese> what with the simpler transmission
05:44:54  <Supercheese> but they're not very popular here
05:45:05  <supermop> well you can more proactively keep it at a more efficient gear ratio
05:45:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i've driven rental cars, and they were all manual
05:45:34  <Flygon> What I really want
05:45:34  <supermop> i think an automatic with CVT might get better milage but ive never tried one
05:45:40  <Flygon> Is for x-electric cars to become popular
05:45:53  <Flygon> No more transmission, just fixed gear ratio, a generator, and a motor @_@
05:45:58  <Flygon> Less maintainence, too
05:46:11  <supermop> what is the x for?
05:46:37  <Flygon> Diesel, Petrol, Coal, Urainium...
05:46:39  <supermop> i want a car with a pantograph so i can drive it for free under tram wires
05:47:08  <Flygon> Trucks with pantographs do exist
05:47:16  <Flygon> But they're only used for mining, iirc
05:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: so in different cities you fry your equipment because they use different voltage?
05:47:37  <Flygon> All Tramways in Australia use 600-750v
05:47:50  <Supercheese> I wonder why ethanol and natural gas aren't used more in automobiles
05:47:54  <Flygon> Unless you somehow break some of Melbourne's level crossings, in which case, cue 1500v
05:48:10  <Supercheese> I figure most gasoline engines would run fine on ethanol, especially with computer-adjusted injection
05:48:24  <supermop> natural gas is harder to store at density
05:48:29  <Supercheese> and you could distill your own fuel if you felt the need
05:48:33  <supermop> but they do exist
05:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the most common in germany as well, but there do or did exist others, like 2,5kV AC
05:48:43  <Supercheese> well, natural gas is piped to everyone's house
05:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause> not to speak of railway catenary
05:48:47  <Supercheese> all you'd need is a compressor
05:48:52  <Supercheese> fuel up in your garage
05:49:06  <Supercheese> although I suppose a compressor wouldn't exactly be cheap
05:49:14  <supermop> i'd rather do that back home than here
05:49:22  <supermop> gas is expensive here
05:49:52  <Supercheese> well, both gasoline and natural gas, and electricity even, are cheap enough here nobody really cares
05:49:57  <supermop> granted so is gasoline
05:49:59  <Supercheese> :s
05:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: the problem with ethanol is that there's no useful way yet to produce it that doesn't cut down on agricultural areas for real food
05:51:03  <Supercheese> Well, couldn't you ferment inedible biomass? Like compost?
05:51:14  <Supercheese> microbes could still produce alcohols
05:51:22  <supermop> that gets you methane generally
05:51:32  <Supercheese> I'm not too well-versed on fermentation
05:51:40  <Supercheese> but the hydrocarbons are there at least
05:52:06  <supermop> Supercheese: i think people have tried making ethanol out of grasses and the waste parts of food crops
05:52:21  <supermop> i dont know if there is sufficient scale for that though
05:52:24  <Supercheese> I figure since everyone and their grandma has a lawn, maybe deriving alcohols from grass clippings
05:52:40  <Supercheese> since it's just thrown away anyway
05:52:43  <supermop> would be better to just ban lawns in the US
05:52:48  <Flygon> Bugger ethanol
05:52:52  <Supercheese> even a low-efficiency process would be reclaiming some energy
05:52:54  <Flygon> Just use oil
05:52:57  <Flygon> Diesel compatible oil
05:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, instead of growing crops for ethanol you could just put a solar panel on the field and get like 600 times the energy
05:53:11  <Flygon> Drive up to the local Fish and Chip shop for your tank of oil :U
05:53:11  <supermop> as all the water and energy that goes into keeping one is pretty wasteful
05:53:22  <Supercheese> Well, a lawn is for aesthetics
05:53:28  <Supercheese> solar panels would ruin that
05:53:50  <Flygon> Bugger asthetics. They're ruining our ability to operate as a civilization
05:53:51  <supermop> Flygon: diesel and biodiesel still produce a lot of smog
05:53:53  <Supercheese> also, lawns are dirt cheap (pun intended); solar panels are not
05:54:14  <Flygon> supermop: Then we need to look at methods of consuming that fuel without much omissions
05:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure in a few years you can buy solar panels that look like stone or brick to put into your frontyard
05:54:44  <supermop> powerplant burning fryer grease outside of town and everyone has and electric
05:55:19  <Flygon> I was thinking more
05:55:22  <Flygon> In the car itself
05:55:44  <Supercheese> My cousin's truck runs on waste vegetable oil
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05:56:03  <Supercheese> it's somewhat of a hassle to maintain, but runs well when properly taken care of
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05:56:17  <supermop> ultimately though you are still carrying around your fuel and means of generating heat, plus means of dissipating heat
05:56:26  <Supercheese> and fuel is given away free of charge
05:56:39  <Supercheese> just have to pick it up
05:56:51  <supermop> at least you can minimize the amount of that weight to move with you
05:57:02  <Eddi|zuHause> just use a Mr Fusion
05:57:03  <Supercheese> the fuel is generally contaminated as hell though :\
05:57:12  <Eddi|zuHause> they're supposed to be around by 2015
05:57:28  <supermop> i cant wait 9 months Eddi|zuHause
05:57:50  <Flygon> Supercheese: Can't it be filtered?
05:57:59  <Supercheese> it can, but that's part of the maintenance hassle
05:58:02  <supermop> my delorean is sitting out here running on fumes right now
05:58:13  <supermop> and i cant find a good plutonium source
05:58:36  <Flygon> The BttF Delorean actually ran on petrol
05:58:41  <Supercheese> just go raid some closed hospitals
05:58:44  <Flygon> Only the time machine was powered by plutonium
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05:58:48  <Supercheese> generally they have loads of radioactive stuff
05:58:57  <Supercheese> best to travel to 3rd-world locations
05:59:05  <Supercheese> they usually don't bother properly disposing of them
05:59:30  <supermop> i need a functioning delorean to get there Supercheese
05:59:37  <Supercheese> ah, there's the rub
06:00:09  <supermop> so far its just the bianchi for commuting here
06:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: if course i know that, but it would have destroyed the argument :p
06:01:02  <supermop> do you guys still play openttd?
06:01:13  <Supercheese> I did earlier today to test Pineapple trains
06:01:20  <Supercheese> Pikka grfs are always delicious
06:01:21  <supermop> i never get that far into it anymore
06:01:23  <supermop> me too
06:01:38  <supermop> but i have my map with each type here
06:01:55  <supermop> but i don't think any towns are fitting for a screenshot for the thread
06:02:05  <supermop> so kind of done with it
06:02:41  <supermop> interesting decision to not stretch the cars in _ or |
06:02:45  <supermop> big gaps
06:02:51  <Supercheese> indeed
06:03:16  <supermop> seems like the sort of thing ottd can never fix
06:03:48  <Flygon> I'm playing OpenTTD right now :U
06:04:01  <supermop> so i guess when using rendered sprites the only solution is to have a short and long model to render from
06:06:48  <supermop> how do you guys keep the game interesting for you?
06:07:35  <supermop> i feel like everytime a new feature fixes something that always bothered me i'm still left with something that's either frustrating or feels hollow
06:12:31  <Flygon> I try out new real world scenarios
06:12:40  <Flygon> But...
06:12:45  <Flygon> What I've really wanted to do
06:12:51  <Flygon> Is a giant Australia scenario
06:12:56  <Flygon> But I'd always be unhapy
06:12:59  <Flygon> unhappy*
06:13:16  <Flygon> Because even at 8096*8096, areas like urban Melbourne and Sydney would get ruined by scale
06:13:27  <Flygon> And Victoria as a whole ruined thanks to it's irl density
06:15:26  <supermop> i'd like playing a melbourne tram game
06:15:41  <supermop> if trams in openttd were a bit more complex
06:16:45  <Flygon> Well
06:17:03  <Flygon> Could always have Trams done as a railset
06:17:09  <Flygon> Have magic bulldozer
06:17:12  <Flygon> And stuff the tracks between roads
06:17:23  <Flygon> But that still has the problem with having no tracks INSIDE the road
06:17:39  <Flygon> What'd be really nice, is if roads could be laid like railway tracks...
06:17:54  <Flygon> But that means road vehicles being one tile wide, instead of 0.5
06:17:59  <Flygon> And basically changing the entire game
06:18:09  <Supercheese> When I get bored I mod the game :U
06:18:23  <Supercheese> and I end up spending more time writing patches and grfs than playing
06:19:37  <Flygon> I tried to draw sprites to get motivated on getting a Vicrail set booted up or something
06:19:45  <Flygon> But I became all sad because I can't master the style
06:19:47  <Supercheese> Oh, I never draw sprites
06:19:50  <Supercheese> it's too tough
06:19:58  <Supercheese> I either render from models or appropriate existing sprites
06:20:14  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/comengopenttd.png
06:21:23  <Flygon> The middle diagonal carriage looks particulary nasty
06:22:00  <Flygon> But, even then
06:22:10  <Flygon> Getting some sort of a Vicrail set rendered'll never happen...
06:22:13  <Flygon> Post-1950? Sure
06:22:25  <Flygon> But there's a crapload of pre-1950 history, and nothing ever looked quite samey...
06:22:31  <Flygon> Pain to draw up models for
06:22:38  <supermop> ok off to cbd to buy a blanket or something, back later
06:22:49  <Flygon> Be sure to take an umbrella
06:22:50  <Flygon> Have fun!
06:22:56  <supermop> on the 96 tram
06:23:00  <Flygon> Aw man
06:23:05  <Flygon> All I get is a Metro every 40 mins
06:23:11  <Flygon> Sunbury line :|
06:23:24  <supermop> newest trams in melbourne outside my door!
06:23:29  <supermop> big ass e-class
06:23:38  <supermop> sadly not a jag e-type
06:23:56  <Flygon> :P
06:23:56  <supermop> later
06:23:59  <Flygon> Have fun!
06:24:10  <Flygon> (a Melbourne Tramset would be MARVELOUS)
06:24:21  <Flygon> (Trams that can break 80km/h BEFORE 1930!)
06:30:51  <Flygon> Alright, enough building
06:30:56  <Flygon> Time to get to actual work x.x
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07:42:22  <andythenorth> o/
07:42:34  <Pikka> maybe
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07:48:33  <xmirakulix> Hello, good morning :)
07:49:55  <xmirakulix> Anybode here?
07:51:00  <xmirakulix> I'm having trouble accessing the openttd git repo, just wanted to check if it's just me
07:51:22  <xmirakulix> Seems to be that way for at least a week, I am getting HTTP 502
08:06:44  <xmirakulix> nvm, git://... works for me
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08:17:28  <andythenorth> QUAK
08:17:36  <andythenorth> what noise do pikkas make?
08:18:03  <Pikka> probably
08:19:26  <andythenorth> have you made EZ industry set yet?
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08:22:43  <planetmaker> moin moin
08:25:01  <xmirakulix> Hi
08:25:14  <xmirakulix> I asked an hour ago, maybe give it another try :)
08:25:33  <xmirakulix> The http://git... repo is unaccessible, returns HTTP 502
08:25:46  <xmirakulix> git:// works though
08:26:37  <xmirakulix> Is that known? If so, maybe there should be a note on the openttd site in the developement section
08:27:17  <planetmaker> xmirakulix, thx for the notice
08:27:47  <planetmaker> the web frontends of svn and git are known to sometimes oom in a fashion that it cannot be caught
08:28:51  <xmirakulix> I see, seems to be that way at least a week. Today I tried changing my git config to git:// and was able to pull, so has to be just the frontend as you say
08:29:59  <planetmaker> the most reliable web frontend seems to be hg.o.o. But if you use the vcs's native protocol, svn://, hg:// or git:// you're usually out-of-trouble
08:30:25  <planetmaker> they work regardless of those issues
08:30:49  <xmirakulix> Yes, thanks
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08:31:02  <xmirakulix> I am setting up a ottd build environment on my new mac, having trouble with libiconv (again...)
08:31:32  <xmirakulix> Seems I cant remember how I solved the issue last time, can't get it to work right now...
08:32:00  <planetmaker> uh... I can't recall that I did anything special. I got all my stuff by means of macports
08:32:26  <xmirakulix> Yes, I do too. But I get a whole lot of linker errors
08:32:27  <planetmaker> but I only have OSX 10.6
08:32:58  <planetmaker> and it's slow, old and crappy. That laptop is not too joyful anymore
08:33:05  <xmirakulix> Do I want to use a specific gcc version?
08:33:31  <planetmaker> not that I know of
08:33:39  <xmirakulix> Hmm, quite a lot ramblings about "Undefined symbols for architecture x86_64"
08:33:43  <planetmaker> the CF uses 4.0, I build it with 4.2
08:33:56  <planetmaker> but it should work also with anything newer
08:34:03  <planetmaker> and should also work with clang
08:34:10  <planetmaker> *should*
08:35:07  <xmirakulix> Hmm, that rang a bell
08:35:18  <xmirakulix> actually I didn't install gcc as of yet...
08:35:23  <planetmaker> :)
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08:36:30  <xmirakulix> so, maybe clang doesn't do the job...
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09:01:04  <planetmaker> what's the grace period for unreproducable bugs until we close them?
09:01:54  <__ln___> ten years
09:02:39  <planetmaker> hm :) That statement can be falsified
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09:15:37  <andythenorth> xmirakulix: which os x?
09:15:54  <xmirakulix> 10.9.2
09:16:03  <xmirakulix> Apple LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.38) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)
09:16:17  <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_Mac_OS_X
09:16:29  <andythenorth> works for me on 10.9.2
09:16:43  <andythenorth> iirc there might be an instruction in there that I disagree with
09:16:44  <xmirakulix> clang rambles quite a lot, a few warnings during compilation and the linker fails
09:16:45  * andythenorth reads
09:17:10  <andythenorth> hmm
09:17:23  <andythenorth> iirc, the instructions in the wiki are the ones I follow
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09:17:38  <andythenorth> I did have to piss around with a dependency, can’t remember which
09:17:56  <andythenorth> and you need XCode and such
09:18:08  <xmirakulix> Yes, I know
09:18:22  <xmirakulix> iirc, the wiki doesn't mention installing gcc
09:19:13  <andythenorth> I don’t have gcc
09:19:22  <andythenorth> gcc is mapped to clang by XCode
09:19:27  <xmirakulix> which clang version do you use?
09:19:45  <andythenorth> Apple LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.38) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)
09:19:45  <xmirakulix> Mine is Apple LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.38) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)
09:19:56  <xmirakulix> hmmm...
09:20:44  <andythenorth> there is also a FS ticket http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5797
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09:20:57  <andythenorth> which might provide different instructions
09:21:23  <andythenorth> the wiki works for me, and my experience of following multiple sets of instructions is that I end up with broken deps etc :P
09:21:43  <Pikka> andythenorth, perhaps I should do houses next
09:21:44  <planetmaker> you might still try michi's patch
09:21:47  <Pikka> default towns are silly
09:21:51  <planetmaker> hm :)
09:21:58  <planetmaker> 'lo bird
09:21:59  <andythenorth> Pikka: but who uses default towns?
09:22:02  <andythenorth> I only use TAI
09:22:08  <Pikka> but
09:22:10  * planetmaker uses default towns a lot
09:22:15  <Pikka> tai is not 32bpp/ez
09:22:17  <xmirakulix> Yes I know that one in FS, but that's not my current problem
09:22:27  <andythenorth> xmirakulix: fwiw, the wiki instructions work on my wife’s mac too, so it’s not a complete fluke.  Sorry that’s not much help :)
09:22:54  <andythenorth> Pikka: I am not going to subscribe to your EZ newsletter :)
09:23:00  <andythenorth> unless you render all my sprites for me
09:23:10  <Pikka> psh
09:23:21  <Pikka> well, you model and texture them, I'll render them ;)
09:23:37  <planetmaker> :D
09:24:04  <xmirakulix> Yes, they help quit a lot - but they are not "complete", as you already mentioned, there are a few things missing, like installing the xcode cmdline tools
09:24:27  <planetmaker> xmirakulix, it's a wiki. And can only be amended by those who have the possibility to try it :)
09:24:28  <andythenorth> Pikka: can’t we just get them off tubrosquid?
09:24:36  <Pikka> yes, we can't
09:25:47  <xmirakulix> I'll see if I can get it to work for me, maybe I can add some info. But as andythenorth already said that clang does the job on his machine, I'm not sure how comparable my setup here is then...
09:26:41  <andythenorth> Pikka: here we go, a good truck set only needs one vehicle: http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/mining-dump-truck-cat797-3d-model/796658
09:27:31  <Pikka> only 2 million polys? cheap at half the price.
09:27:52  <andythenorth> we’re bitmapping it anyway :P
09:28:02  <Pikka> yes
09:28:05  <andythenorth> also
09:28:18  <andythenorth> if you did a style like this (paper) I might play http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/mining-dump-truck-cat797-3d-model/796658
09:28:36  <Pikka> no it isn't
09:29:06  <andythenorth> would look fricking awesome
09:29:28  <andythenorth> the white might get a bit harsh on the eyes
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09:30:23  <andythenorth> we could do paper punk
09:30:30  <Pikka> yes but we can't, because it's the same link :)
09:30:32  <andythenorth> it’s a whole new subculture :P
09:30:38  <andythenorth> oh silly andythenorth
09:30:52  <andythenorth> http://previewcf.turbosquid.com/Preview/2014/02/04__00_02_09/modii3dcaterpillar_wire_03.jpgfd7d532a-3026-488e-be8c-2d771dd9b83aLarge.jpg
09:31:11  <planetmaker> oh, those models look quite interesting. Graphically and moneywise :P
09:31:36  <Pikka> quite wireframe. what's this "you" business?
09:32:20  <andythenorth> http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/451282/126042221/stock-photo--d-render-of-a-paper-style-a-lot-of-trees-and-people-in-the-bus-126042221.jpg
09:32:24  <andythenorth> http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/451282/128293499/stock-photo--d-render-of-a-paper-style-a-lot-of-trees-and-people-in-the-bus-evening-128293499.jpg
09:32:30  <andythenorth> http://www.yiningkarlli.com/projects/takuarender/images/deloreon.png
09:32:35  <andythenorth> http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=6683&filename=Bristol%201.png
09:33:55  <andythenorth> Pikka: this ‘you’ business means you do it, and I provide helpful comments
09:34:02  <andythenorth> like ‘is it done yet?'
09:37:41  <andythenorth> can I have a flag for cargos?
09:37:44  <andythenorth> ‘farm cargo'
09:37:48  <andythenorth> ‘mineral cargo’
09:37:49  <andythenorth> ?
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09:42:14  <Wolf01> hi hi
09:45:18  <__ln___> Wolf01: quantos grados habent?
09:45:44  <Wolf01> is that esperanto?
09:46:29  <__ln___> no, it's a mix of spanish, pseudo-latin and who knows what
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09:47:51  <Wolf01> I'm not sure, but it seem to be 17°C right now
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09:48:15  <__ln___> good, so it was understandable nevertheless :)
09:48:25  <Wolf01> :)
09:53:06  <andythenorth> forums have gone boring again :(
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09:54:57  <planetmaker> new thread: "bad pixels?"
09:55:07  <xmirakulix> just to let you know, seems that I had the FS problem from the start
09:55:37  <andythenorth> planetmaker: “BAD PLAYERS” ? o_O
09:55:39  <xmirakulix> clang does with ./configure LDFLAGS="-stdlib=libstdc++"
09:55:43  <planetmaker> can you please comment there that it fixes your issues?
09:56:05  <xmirakulix> I ym just checking, Michi's patch didn't seem to work for me
09:56:11  <xmirakulix> Ill post then
09:56:45  <planetmaker> uh... so not the patch, but you solved it differently?
09:57:01  <andythenorth> hmm
09:57:08  <xmirakulix> One of the comments in the thread
09:57:13  <andythenorth> now I have to do the boring crap, setting all the vehicle stats :P
09:57:23  <planetmaker> then even more important to comment it there :)
09:57:31  <xmirakulix> Yes ;)
09:57:36  <planetmaker> andythenorth, use dice :P
09:57:37  <andythenorth> I need someone to make suggestions so I can tell them why they are wrong
09:57:42  <andythenorth> this is how andythenorth works :P
09:57:48  <planetmaker> haha :)
09:58:16  <andythenorth> shame my marriage doesn’t work that why
09:58:22  <andythenorth> why / way /s
09:58:30  <andythenorth> it’s more the inverse
09:59:15  <planetmaker> hehe :)
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10:05:23  <xmirakulix> Is there a configure option to get a build.log?
10:05:32  <planetmaker> for now, enjoy the day :) Bye
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10:13:33  <andythenorth> hmm
10:13:35  <andythenorth> stupid bus
10:13:44  <andythenorth> it’s worse than the equivalent tram
10:13:47  <andythenorth> but Realism
10:29:09  <andythenorth> so the HEQS trams that refit to different capacity
10:29:12  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE?
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10:47:47  <xmirakulix> Posted my findings on FS
10:47:59  <xmirakulix> Maybe it helps
10:48:25  <xmirakulix> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5797
10:48:48  <andythenorth> thanks :)
10:55:30  * LordAro appears
11:03:44  <andythenorth> GRR
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12:48:52  <xmirakulix> andythenorth, are you there?
12:49:35  <andythenorth> yes
12:50:06  <xmirakulix> You said you had access to a macbook, are you able to verify that this is actually working as intended?
12:50:07  <xmirakulix> (svn r25666) -Feature [FS#4760]: [OSX] Pinch gesture support for zooming. (Based on patch by leecbaker)
12:50:24  <xmirakulix> In FS: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4760
12:50:56  <xmirakulix> As far as I understand, the idea was to support the pinching gesture on the macbook trackpad to zoom the map
12:51:38  <xmirakulix> but as far as I see, the commit to the trunk does not work, if the mousewheel is set to "map scrolling"
12:52:17  <xmirakulix> which of course is the best setting when playing on a trackpad, to zoom the map both ways just by swiping two fingers over the trackpad
12:52:27  <xmirakulix> *not zoom, scroll
12:55:39  <andythenorth> hrm
12:55:56  <andythenorth> the trackpad crap is disabled on my macbook :)
12:56:17  <andythenorth> I think it works on my wife’s though
12:56:28  <andythenorth> I see the kids accidentally zooming the map
12:59:39  <andythenorth> xmirakulix: yeah can’t make pinch-zoom work
13:00:13  <xmirakulix> There is a difference in the patch as it was posted in FS and the implementation that ended up in trunk
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13:01:03  <xmirakulix> the trunk-one simply "turns" the mousewheel when pinching, which is obviously incorrect when the mousewheel is set to be used to scroll the map
13:02:36  <xmirakulix> Soo, what is the correct way to report that bug? Do I comment in the already closed FS Thread?
13:07:02  <andythenorth> not sure :)
13:07:23  <xmirakulix> I'll just post it in the forum, someone will know :)
13:09:10  <peter1138> I don't think you can comment in a closed bug, so post a new one.
13:09:32  <xmirakulix> Ok, can do - so no forum thread then
13:16:54  <peter1138> Income £666 :S
13:19:58  <andythenorth> price of the Apple 1
13:22:43  <xmirakulix> Posted in FS: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5958
13:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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13:56:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am the project manager
13:57:51  <andythenorth> which is the more pleasing capacity: 72t, 77t, or 80t
13:58:01  <andythenorth> 77t is not a power of 2
13:58:22  <andythenorth> neither are 72 ot 8
13:58:25  <andythenorth> 80
13:58:46  * andythenorth considers a set where all stats are powers of 2
13:58:55  <rubidium> use primes
13:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> 72 has the most divisors
14:01:19  <andythenorth> I’ll use 72
14:01:30  <andythenorth> stupid numerology :)
14:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> what makes you think powers of two are the optimum here anyway?
14:02:26  <andythenorth> nothing
14:02:27  <andythenorth> it’s a whim
14:02:37  <andythenorth> why 7 red lines?
14:04:21  <andythenorth> is a 20mph tram actually useful?  for 1870-1905?
14:04:32  <andythenorth> equivalent era trains are *so* much faster
14:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> not my trains
14:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause> freight trains of that era are around 35km/h, and passengers 70km/h
14:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the advantage of trams is that you get decent capacity without destroying half the town
14:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> they don't need speed
14:06:53  * andythenorth looks how fast HEQS trams go
14:07:38  <andythenorth> 20 is plenty
14:07:45  <andythenorth> HEQS trams of same era are 15mph
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14:31:53  <fjb> Moin
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15:41:30  <andythenorth> 35mph or 36mph?
15:44:18  <maddy_> mph is hard for me, I play with km/h
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16:04:37  <peter1138> Hmm, ssh responsiveness is not bad for 50% packet loss.
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16:12:56  <SpComb> just send every packet twice
16:13:13  <SpComb> you'll be fine
16:14:02  <peter1138> hmm, zbase level crossings are a bit bare.
16:16:24  <SpComb> bond0 across two virtual loopback interfaces that you bridge together onto the physical interface
16:16:29  <SpComb> instant packet accelerator
16:17:55  <SpComb> I actually spent one weekend SSH'ing across a link that didn't just duplicate every packet, but four times
16:18:00  <SpComb> it worked fine
16:19:38  <SpComb> a linux box that was set up so that you could plug USB 3G thingies into it, and it would hotplug them up with a L2 VPN to a remote site
16:19:45  <SpComb> and then it would run LACP bonding across all of those L2 VPNs
16:19:58  <SpComb> optimized for latency by just duplicating every packet across all of the 3G links
16:20:13  <SpComb> so you'd get every packet four times in both directions, but hey :)
16:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> ... or you could just increase symbol size so less packages get lost?
16:25:25  <peter1138> packet != package
16:25:40  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever
16:37:13  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: that would just increase the latency
16:37:26  <SpComb> or do you mean radio symbol size?
16:38:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the layer 1 stuff
16:44:25  <SpComb> the idea was that you have multiple different 3G links on different operators
16:51:14  <SpComb> so if one of them has bursty losses or latency you go around it as fast as possible
16:51:45  <SpComb> given, doing that is probably horribly suboptimal if you have large queues on the individual 3G links
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17:03:44  <andythenorth> someone start an interesting forum thread?
17:05:41  <peter1138> What are GOOD FEATURES?
17:06:35  <andythenorth> shunting
17:06:38  <andythenorth> road types
17:06:42  <andythenorth> state machines
17:06:48  <andythenorth> programmable signals
17:06:54  <andythenorth> these are my favourite features
17:07:05  <andythenorth> articulated ships
17:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> these are not features, because nobody coded them
17:12:18  <andythenorth> maybe the only good feature is an uncoded feature
17:12:59  <Eddi|zuHause> making assertions about the members of the empty set is always fun
17:15:48  <andythenorth> sorting out vehicle progression is not fun :P
17:15:58  <andythenorth> pax trams and buses overlap, it’s kind of awkward
17:16:14  <andythenorth> give me some schema, because reality is as usual distracting :P
17:16:47  <andythenorth> buses need to appear by about 1920
17:16:54  <andythenorth> but trams need to be available after that date
17:17:11  <Eddi|zuHause> balance for trams: more costly infrastructure but higher capacity
17:17:32  <andythenorth> ok good, I was going for higher cap
17:17:38  <andythenorth> what about speed (and maybe HP)?
17:18:02  <Eddi|zuHause> speed is not important
17:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> some modern trams might go 80km/h
17:18:23  <andythenorth> not important because...?
17:18:33  <andythenorth> currently buses and trams have ~same speed for same era
17:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "realistic" inner city trams go maybe 20km/h
17:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but we need roadtypes to solve that
17:19:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so ignore it
17:19:25  <andythenorth> +1
17:19:38  <andythenorth> speed will just match the other vehicles for the era
17:19:47  <andythenorth> mostly I’m pegging road vehicles to pretty similar speeds at any era
17:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds alright
17:20:15  <andythenorth> I don’t think choosing faster or slower RVs within an era is particularly interesting choice
17:20:27  <andythenorth> I just want ‘bus’ or ‘truck’ and ‘bigger’ or ‘smaller'
17:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking maybe inner city bus (high capacity/low speed) vs. long distance bus (low capacity/high speed)
17:22:02  <andythenorth> yeah, I have a coach and a bus by 1970 or so
17:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> where trucks are in the middle with medium speed
17:22:10  <andythenorth> hmm
17:22:28  <andythenorth> maybe the reason speed isn’t important is that trains will always be the faster choice
17:22:38  <andythenorth> so if you’re choosing the faster RV, you should choose a train instead :P
17:23:17  <andythenorth> also I dislike the stop-start of faster vehicles stuck behind slower ones
17:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> not your problem to solve
17:25:16  <Eddi|zuHause> we need a better road traffic simulator for that
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17:41:11  <andythenorth> I somewhat solve it by having lots of similar speed vehicles :P
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18:03:58  <andythenorth> hurgh
18:04:07  <andythenorth> I should give the speeds variable names
18:04:18  <andythenorth> then they would be pegged the same across eras :P
18:04:24  <andythenorth> saves hassle
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18:45:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26436 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-03-29 18:45:20 UTC)
18:45:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:32  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 1 changes by Brumi
18:45:33  <DorpsGek> polish - 15 changes by Kilian
18:45:34  <DorpsGek> welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
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19:13:53  <ghur> I have a train that costs money at delivery instead of gaining profit. what are possibly causes for this? IÂŽm using cargo dist and thereÂŽs some transfering
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20:00:33  <andythenorth> so has anyone made a GS recently?
20:00:44  * andythenorth needs to play a game to test newgrfs
20:00:56  <andythenorth> I’ve played NCG and SV recently
20:01:27  <andythenorth> I’m not playing any city builder thing
20:03:38  <andythenorth> is Awards GS good?
20:05:20  <andythenorth> @seen zuu
20:05:20  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 23 hours, 14 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <Zuu> Though I have heard that the current ISP actually run an a radio link 2-3 km over a lake. :-)
20:05:31  <andythenorth> wonder if I can patch NCG to do more cargos?
20:18:43  <andythenorth> hmm
20:18:52  <andythenorth> shameful GS situtation
20:20:50  <andythenorth> hmm NCG is a teeny bit hard-coded to 3 cargos
20:42:42  * peter1138 hardcodes andythenorth
20:42:46  <peter1138> hmm
20:42:58  <peter1138> i have a puppy trying to hardcode my netbook
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21:04:51  *** Pikka [~Octomom@d110-32-11-122.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
21:07:25  <andythenorth> lo Pikka
21:07:37  <andythenorth> peter1138: go on, code a GS ;)
21:07:40  <andythenorth> we should all do one
21:11:43  <Pikka> lo bob
21:11:51  <Pikka> what are the haps in here?
21:13:04  <Pikka> "the only good feature is an uncoded feature". deep.
21:17:26  <andythenorth> it’s that kind of day
21:17:28  <andythenorth> profound
21:17:36  <andythenorth> the profundity knows no depths
21:19:11  <Pikka> www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=70265 look, here's someone who's going to do roadtypes for us!
21:21:45  <andythenorth> \o/
21:21:58  <andythenorth> is it wrong that I have 60t trucks?
21:22:03  <Pikka> yes
21:22:06  <andythenorth> oh well
21:22:21  <Pikka> 60t trucks are a sin
21:23:46  <andythenorth> the alternative is smaller capacity progression
21:23:50  <andythenorth> or useless trucks in early game
21:24:05  <andythenorth> 40 -> 50 -> 60
21:24:14  <andythenorth> could be 35 -> 40 -> 45
21:25:00  <Pikka> 60 is quite a capacity for a single vehicle
21:25:10  <Pikka> compared to typical ttd train car capacities
21:25:24  <Pikka> if they're mining trucks though, why not?
21:25:51  <planetmaker> evening
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21:26:12  <Pikka> hello planetmaker
21:26:14  <andythenorth> Pikka: they aren’t mining trucks :(
21:26:18  <andythenorth> I think they’re too big
21:26:33  <andythenorth> my train set has mostly 40t wagons
21:30:54  <andythenorth> smller it is thn
21:35:15  <Pikka> splndid
21:35:19  <andythenorth> indd
21:35:26  <andythenorth> is 45t ok?
21:35:31  * andythenorth thinks so
21:35:36  <Pikka> yes
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22:03:40  <andythenorth> bye
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23:18:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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