Log for #openttd on 5th May 2014:
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00:28:34  <Supercheese> Oh good lord in heaven, why do some software designers decide to change everything they possibly can when releasing a new version?
00:28:56  <Supercheese> "Let's take the existing user interface and move every single item around, just because we can"
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06:13:22  <V453000> =D
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06:22:20  <DanMacK> Hey all
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06:39:15  <andythenorth> ho ho
06:39:29  <V453000> hoho
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06:40:49  <andythenorth> the funny thing about Andrex is the sense of desperation against
06:40:51  <andythenorth> time
06:41:01  <andythenorth> “urgent” “immediately” etc
06:41:42  <andythenorth> also that he seems to think none of the devs are prepared to admit that most of the game is basically crap :)
06:42:43  <V453000> ?
06:43:17  * andythenorth has been in the forums
06:45:48  <V453000> never a good idea
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07:27:03  <planetmaker> ho ho
07:27:18  <Flygon_> Ho-oh
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07:27:42  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I wouldn't say 'most of the game is mostly crap'. But we definitely can agree on "there's always much room for improvement - on most if not all aspects" :)
07:28:13  <planetmaker>  I mean, we're here. We're here because we must have thought at least at one point in time that the game is great :)
07:29:45  <andythenorth> yes, but now we’re wiser :)
07:29:55  <planetmaker> yeah :)
07:30:13  <planetmaker> but we know that there's a path back to ye ol' days - if we work for it :P
07:30:35  <planetmaker> (though to be honest, we just don't admit, that the path is infinitely long and we only enjoy playing the meta game)
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07:57:56  <Alberth> o/
07:59:43  <andythenorth> o/
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08:34:38  <supermop> still playing on this polish server
08:35:41  <supermop> how do i do separation in trunk?
08:35:46  <supermop> ctrl click something?
08:40:10  <andythenorth> timetables?
08:40:21  <planetmaker> checkout the time table and read the tooltips. It tells you what to click how
08:40:32  <planetmaker> (and no, I don't recall, so that's the only advise I can give)
08:40:40  <andythenorth> I tried to make separation work
08:40:42  <andythenorth> completely failed
08:40:47  <andythenorth> despite precise instructions
08:40:56  <andythenorth> probably Eandythenorth
08:41:19  <andythenorth> I wanted it for ships
08:42:05  <andythenorth> I still don’t really understand timetables :)
08:42:20  <andythenorth> are they intended for the model train people, rather than gameplay? o_O
08:42:55  <planetmaker> it's difficult to get going
08:43:11  <planetmaker> And I believe that's definitely one of the points with 'more room for improvement'
08:43:18  <andythenorth> seems to be for those people who “want to create a realistic map of the UK rail network"
08:43:26  <planetmaker> I also always have difficulty to setup a time table and separate vehicles there
08:43:43  <andythenorth> I just want to have 5 ships in a shared order group and have them auto-separate, using station departures
08:45:14  <andythenorth> instead of wait, rather ‘leave station 20 days after previous vehicle in order group'
08:45:49  <planetmaker> yeah, sounds like one of the typical use cases I employ as well
08:47:14  <andythenorth> I want a cadence of deliveries
08:47:20  <andythenorth> I really don’t care about simulating reality
08:47:35  <andythenorth> in fact, I am anti-caring about simulating reality, it makes my head hurt
08:48:01  <V453000> nice
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08:49:09  <andythenorth> I have enough reality already
08:49:14  * andythenorth considers ebaying some surplus reality
08:49:21  <planetmaker> rabÀÀÀÀ!
08:49:52  <Alberth> pick a ship, open time table, press autofill, wait for the table to fill, and add some extra time for ctachup. When done, pick the first ship that arrives at the first order, and ctrl-click "start date", a window opens with the date of "now". press "set date". Wait for everything to settle
08:49:52  <andythenorth> lost in translation :)
08:50:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, it’s really intuitive.  I don’t know how I failed at it.
08:50:16  <V453000> pick a ship, open time table, pres autofill, let ship get lost, buy trains
08:50:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: it's trivial! :p
08:52:07  <Alberth> oh, and of course you have to do it all again when you add or remove a ship
08:52:20  <Alberth> have to keep you busy :p
08:52:46  <V453000> :
08:52:47  <V453000> D
08:52:56  <andythenorth> oh, so adding ships breaks it?
08:53:03  <Alberth> afaik it does
08:53:04  <andythenorth> assuming it works at all
08:53:12  <andythenorth> and upgrading models breaks it?
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08:53:43  <Alberth> not sure, with faster models, you'll have more time at the stations I guess
08:53:44  <andythenorth> you know how in parachuting, you just count 10s from previous jumper, then jump?
08:53:47  <andythenorth> that
08:54:31  <Alberth> just buy 20 extra ships instead :p
08:55:16  <V453000> or ignore timetabling as a whole, win win
08:56:20  <Alberth> another valid strategy :)
08:57:07  <planetmaker> hm, I guess I didn't know either that adding vehicles breaks it :)
09:03:28  <andythenorth> with cdist and station-refit, I am using full load a lot less
09:03:33  <andythenorth> and trying to make timetables work more
09:03:57  <andythenorth> ships seem to inevitably cluster, usually to the point where they overlap entirely
09:04:27  <andythenorth> which is ugly
09:04:50  <andythenorth> and screws up the network, because thousands of tonnes of cargo arrive at once, then nothing for months (bad for station ratings)
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09:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> timetabling solved the clustering for me pretty well
09:11:33  <andythenorth> dunno why it didn’t work for me
09:11:37  <andythenorth> I tried a couple of times
09:11:40  <andythenorth> got bored waiting
09:11:52  <andythenorth> auto-fill on a 500 tile ship route is like watching paint dry
09:11:55  <andythenorth> and ffwd doesn’t work any more
09:12:14  <planetmaker> lol
09:12:31  <andythenorth> still, it’s definitely nice that we build things with fun in mind eh?
09:12:33  <planetmaker> heavy maps are heavy?
09:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, waiting is a problem
09:12:45  <andythenorth> nah, ffwd is just borked with mavericks
09:12:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: got mavericks?
09:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted an "estimate" button
09:13:01  <planetmaker> no, sorry, I don't
09:13:18  <andythenorth> nvm.  Anyway ottd is pretty borked on mehvericks
09:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and/or automatically recording and just taking the previous roundtrip as timetable if i chose to use one
09:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> anybody used telepathy for ICQ? i don't see a function to fetch my contact list
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10:18:10  <Samu> when using .png files for heightmaps, i have to prepare the pngs, rotating +45 or -45 degrees, but I think it still deforms the generated map
10:18:25  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: if ottd had tiles/tick or something as an option for speed units you could roughly estimate it yourself
10:18:54  <Samu> how do I maintain the 1 to 1 aspect?
10:19:24  <Samu> it looks shrinked somehow
10:19:38  <Samu> or am I seeing things where they don't exist?
10:21:21  <Samu> how many pixels do the minimap in-game affect height and width of a generated heightmap?
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10:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: well, 4096kmh-ish means 1 tile per tick
10:21:58  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but you don't have an easy measure for distance either
10:22:09  <V453000> Samu: ust make an image of size 512x512 and make a 512x512 map from that?
10:22:12  <V453000> just*
10:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> only for straight lines
10:23:10  <Samu> i need to create a mosaic .png, not just 512x512
10:23:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: minimap tiles are 1x4 pixels
10:23:41  <V453000> the fuck is mosaic png
10:23:59  <Samu> the shape of the original picture
10:24:05  <Samu> just just a square
10:24:21  <V453000> why dont you rather getseed of the map and generate the same one again?
10:25:27  <Samu> im using a girl to generate, and she becomes a bit shrinked in height or fat in width, guess it's what zuHause said, 1x4
10:26:44  <planetmaker> V453000, getseed only will give the same map with the same version of openttd, the same settings and the same newgrfs
10:26:59  <planetmaker> if you change any, the same result cannot be guaranteed
10:29:59  <V453000> well yeah but it isnt generally that hard to get it about right
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10:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: what exactly are you trying to achieve?
10:40:57  <Samu> a girl heightmap with the right proportions
10:41:06  <Samu> nerdy stuff
10:41:46  <Samu> only needs to look good on the minimap
10:44:14  <Samu> it looks to be 3x4
10:44:15  <Samu> not 1x4
10:45:41  <Samu> vertical size must be increased from 100% to 133.33% I think
10:45:48  <Samu> then rotate -45 degrees
10:46:01  <Samu> and have the game to generate clockwise
10:47:22  <Samu> dang, it's not 133.33%
10:47:28  <Samu> it's moar
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10:49:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: well technically the tile is 1x4 visible pixels and a row of invisible pixels
10:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so 2x4 is an approximation you could use
10:49:48  <Samu> 2x4?, then 200%
10:49:50  <Samu> brb
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10:57:52  <Samu> Eddi|zuHause: u got that right! looks perfect
10:58:03  <Samu> thanks
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11:06:40  <Samu> original picture size: 1835x2500, adjusted picture size: 4834x4834
11:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you might get better results if you scale that to a power of 2
11:09:09  <Samu> the image editor im using doesn't seem to let me make higher images than that
11:09:19  <Samu> gonna try a smaller image
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11:12:18  <planetmaker> image sizes larger than 4096^2 don't make sense anyway
11:12:27  <planetmaker> when you plan to use it as height map
11:16:16  <Samu> i picked a 400x600 image
11:16:29  <Samu> applied 200% vertical, became 400x1200
11:16:51  <Samu> then rotated 45 to the left, became 1132x1132
11:17:16  <Samu> i just suck at math, but does it seems correct?
11:18:47  <Alberth> without computing it, it doesn't look like a weird number
11:19:29  <Alberth> clip to 1024^1024
11:19:42  <Alberth> s/\^/x/
11:21:18  <Samu> i'd post a screenshot but it's not safe for work lol
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11:27:05  <Samu> i found a good image that's safe for work
11:27:12  <Samu>
11:27:19  <Samu> brb
11:34:45  <Samu> done:
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11:36:37  <Samu> any thoughts?
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11:38:55  <Alberth> no relevant ones, I think
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11:41:53  <Samu> this is how I had to prepare the image before creating a heightmap out of it:
11:41:54  <Samu> lol
11:43:04  <Samu> very interesting stuff you got there with the heightmap generator
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11:44:25  <Alberth> the problem of course is that a colour in a random image does not represent height
11:44:49  <Alberth> you'd need a 3d map of the subject
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11:50:42  <Samu> 3d images?
11:50:55  <Samu> wow
11:51:15  <Samu> im only using simple editing tools
11:51:34  <Samu> paint + office picture manager
11:52:30  <Alberth> that will work too, but making a realistic heightmap then is a LOT of work
11:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: you need to make sure that higher sections have brighter colours
11:53:42  <Samu> i know, black bakcground with bright colors works wonders
11:54:15  <Samu> darker colors = low height or water
11:54:53  <Alberth> if your gf wears a white t-shirt with some print on it, the print will be lower, while in reality, it equally high as the t-shirt
11:56:45  <Samu> I see, i can try to be selective on the images that works best, I know that either a very bright background can also be problem
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11:57:08  <Samu> or do a bit of editing if it really bothers me too much
11:57:18  <Samu> or invert colors
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12:17:37  <supermop> for some reason i can't join the polish server anymore
12:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> now your shoes will never be shiny again!
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12:25:27  <Flygon> supermop: Did you upset that Polish Food Joint in Albion?
12:27:18  <V453000> did they ban you from the server for building too many trains?
12:27:20  <V453000> happened to me once
12:28:02  <Flygon> You can get banned for building too many trains??
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12:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000 has a way to stand opposite of everybody else's view :p
12:39:01  <supermop> nah keep getting a network error right as it finishes downloading the map
12:40:42  <V453000> well admittedly they had a hard time connecting :P
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12:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause> downloading took too long? computer too slow?
12:46:41  <V453000> computer too slow. :)
12:46:59  <V453000> 2000+ trains isnt fun for pc
12:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant supermop
12:47:02  <V453000> aha
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12:47:43  <supermop> computer doesn't usually seem slow, was having no trouble running that game and map earlier today
12:48:14  <Samu> download speed perhaps
12:48:19  <supermop> i mean i am very far away from poland right now, but last night and today I had no reall connection issue
12:48:32  <V453000> get closer then :D
12:48:35  <V453000> like a sea closer
12:48:41  <V453000>  /ocean
12:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> "distance" works differently on the internet
12:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes the shortest way from berlin to berlin goes through the USA
12:53:18  <tzaeru> this too can very simply be simulated by openttd..! just don't connect your roads in a city, instead have them loop around through a town on the other side of the whole map -.O
12:53:42  <tzaeru> that's worthy of a scenario..
12:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> just you won't get any money from that
13:00:07  <supermop> bed time
13:00:54  <supermop> if any of you want to take over my company on the  PL server, password is mop
13:04:38  <supermop> it has some nicely timetabled trams!
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13:17:06  <George> Hi
13:17:15  <George> I've got a problem
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13:17:57  <George> When I check current speed to calculate running cost factor, I check for 0 value first.
13:18:35  <George> When a train sttands at red signal, the speed is periodically not 0, while vehicle window shows 0
13:18:43  <George> how can it happen?
13:19:26  <George> Vehicle details window shows running cost, there I can see jumps;
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13:20:49  <George> non zero value seems to be 1
13:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> George: train waiting at block signal will constantly try to accelerate
13:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause> George: pikka had the same problem, not sure how he solved it
13:21:37  <George> andy why it gets non zero speed?
13:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> George: because of the vehicle substeps. there are 256 substeps, and hitting a red signal will reset the progress to 10 (i believe), so it will accelerate these substeps again
13:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and again, and again, and again
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13:56:50  <George> Eddi|zuHause: And what's required to move the patch to trunck?
13:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> George: someone who commits it
13:57:30  <George> Who should do it?
13:58:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know...
14:02:09  *** ABCRic [] has joined #openttd
14:11:26  <Samu> ((30*13)/25)*(177/88)=
14:13:19  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:13:21  <andythenorth> what is infrastructure sharing all about?
14:13:24  <andythenorth> is it a thing?
14:13:51  <Samu> you play with a friend in the same company
14:14:03  <Alberth> it's a suggestion in the development section
14:14:30  <andythenorth> Samu: sounds like coop, why do we need a patch?
14:14:54  <Alberth> never happy with what we have?
14:15:06  <Samu> me? I didn't ask anything
14:15:21  <andythenorth> I don’t understand IS.
14:15:31  <andythenorth> why not just build new tracks?
14:15:39  <andythenorth> is it some realism thing?  For modelling trains?
14:16:02  <andythenorth> it’s probably because in the UK we have one company owns tracks, other companies run the trains
14:16:07  <andythenorth> the train nerds want it?
14:16:31  <Alberth> mostly, I think
14:16:47  <Alberth> we share tracks, but some tracks are still mine, and others are yours
14:16:59  <Alberth> no idea why that's useful
14:17:00  <andythenorth> why bother?
14:17:26  <andythenorth> just merge the companies
14:17:43  <andythenorth> Yet Another Complicated Thing
14:18:10  <Alberth> and miss out all the "fun" you can do when you're playing competitively?
14:18:35  <andythenorth> griefing and such?
14:18:42  <andythenorth> it’s kind of odd
14:19:04  <andythenorth> the only goal of infrastructure seems to be griefing, and yet all the concern seems to be about anti-griefing measures
14:19:18  <andythenorth> the gameplay benefit is I can steal your tracks and cargo, no?
14:19:31  <Samu> limit player #1 in company #1 of doing A and player #2 of company #1 of doing B?
14:19:49  <andythenorth> the point is to enable me to just be a parasite
14:20:14  <andythenorth> Samu: don’t take me too seriously
14:20:19  <Alberth> the point is that tracks may be expensive, so it's cheaper to use mine
14:20:32  <andythenorth> what’s actually happening here is nothing to do with ottd
14:20:46  <Alberth> opinions differ :p
14:20:47  * andythenorth is avoiding reading the Bootstrap docs to avoid having to work out how to refactor something
14:21:21  <Alberth> just overwrite the old with the new :)
14:21:25  <andythenorth> if I am exchanging Valued Opinions here, that’s a valid excuse for not reading the docs
14:21:31  <andythenorth> Alberth: I have to actually have a design :P
14:21:44  <andythenorth> contrary to the impression, I do actually think about code before ploughing in :P
14:22:25  <Alberth> yeah, annoying eh, that you cannot simply start coding, and think while doing :)
14:22:41  <andythenorth> I think it’s probably actually better than thinking first tbh
14:22:56  <andythenorth> at least with pure css stuff I can just start firebugging
14:23:40  <Alberth> it often is better, at least when you can see where you'll end up
14:30:31  <andythenorth> the refactoring I have to do is more like unifying common functions
14:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well at least _I_ want infrastructure sharing to keep local traffic and long-distance traffic in different companies, but still share one cargodist network
14:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it could be simulated with groups, but that's not implemented either
14:31:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you also use a parent company with shareholding? o_O
14:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
14:32:48  <andythenorth> out of interest, why separate companies?
14:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> because...
14:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> one local transport company in each city
14:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> different liveries, different accounting
14:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> different infrastructure maintenance :)
14:37:01  <andythenorth> do you share tracks?
14:37:08  <andythenorth> or just co-joined stations?
14:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i could live with just stations
14:37:46  <andythenorth> joining stations across companies seems interesting with lower complexity
14:38:16  <andythenorth> basically allows cargo transfers, so possible for a company to just do one or two legs of a journey
14:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> still have the main problem: cargo payment sharing
14:38:33  <andythenorth> yeah, I am not smart enough to discuss that :)
14:38:57  <andythenorth> if we could make it a stupider problem, I become capable of opinion
14:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is simple: do we want to remember every hop the cargo has taken for the whole route?
14:40:38  <andythenorth> doesn’t that grow memory use horribly?
14:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it's potentially very memory heavy
14:40:46  <andythenorth> and worse on large maps?
14:41:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's the only solution
14:41:11  <andythenorth> unless...
14:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you do leg payment directly
14:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> which allows cheating
14:41:24  <andythenorth> 
we completely change the cargo payment model
14:41:51  <andythenorth> the cheating is that you get paid as soon as leg is complete?
14:43:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, like transfer across the map
14:43:38  <Eddi|zuHause> or never actually reach destination
14:44:04  <andythenorth> put the money in escrow
14:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> drop cargo in the middle of nowhere
14:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> still get paid
14:44:23  <andythenorth> each company has an accounts receivable table: amount, cargo packet
14:44:29  <andythenorth> when packet arrives all amounts are paid out
14:44:47  <andythenorth> meanwhile we just track one amount per company per packet, instead of per leg
14:44:52  <andythenorth> or something
14:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not reduce the amount of memory consumed
14:44:56  <andythenorth> I dunno, I can’t program
14:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't store the money received because you don't know the money before it arrives
14:45:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to store distance travelled (in the correct direction) and time taken
14:46:02  <andythenorth> oh I had made an assumption, the shipper pays a fixed price for shipping, forget all this cargo rate nonsense
14:46:21  <andythenorth> it would also ‘fix’ this problem people have with what they see as perverse incentive with distance
14:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause> good luck convincing anybody of that :p
14:46:50  * andythenorth does some hand-waving
14:47:09  <andythenorth> hand-waving didn’t work
14:47:18  <andythenorth> trying to think of a way to divide fixed payment across legs
14:47:21  <andythenorth> not good
14:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> see, it doesn't even solve your problem
14:48:01  <andythenorth> now I have to go back to IE 7 bugs
14:48:05  <andythenorth> :(
14:49:10  <Flygon> At least it's not IE 6
14:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody cares about ie6 anymore
14:51:55  <Eddi|zuHause> not if he intends to stay sane
14:52:02  <Rubidium> didn't MS release a IE 6 bugfix this week?
14:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i heard something about an XP bugfix
14:53:06  <Eddi|zuHause> a propos XP, anybody knows where i put the SP3 update pack the last time i used it?
14:53:41  <andythenorth> I was able to stop caring about IE 6 last year
14:54:37  <Flygon> Careful, the Chinese still love IE6 D;
15:04:35  <Samu> i can't turn around a road vehicle when it's on a bridge. Intended?
15:06:01  *** SpComb^ [] has joined #openttd
15:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> can't overtake on bridges either
15:06:36  <Samu> ok t.t