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Log for #openttd on 13th June 2014:
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01:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: do you have any idea how often a t-shirt travelled around the world when you buy it in the shop?
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05:32:37  <V453000> wtf original train acceleration model is still default?
05:32:42  <V453000> I thought we dont live in stone age anymore
05:34:17  <V453000> I like the new settings organization though
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05:57:20  <Flygon> Oh man
05:57:22  <Flygon> I dun guud
05:57:33  <Flygon> I gotta quadriplate a busy mainline with lots of junctions
05:57:34  <Flygon> Go me :B
06:12:17  <V453000> nice
06:12:30  <Flygon> Sooo yeah
06:12:32  <Flygon> Moral of the story
06:12:38  <Flygon> lern2futureproof
06:12:53  <V453000> more like learn2expand
06:13:33  <V453000> any network can break under x amount of trains, which can come sooner or later ... and building Huuuuge at the start is just boring, expensive, ugly, and not nearly as good for learning
06:16:02  <Flygon> True
06:16:16  <Flygon> And those networks that're 'prebuilt' end up not working well for the task anwyay
06:24:47  <V453000> usually.
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06:30:21  <V453000> my main point is that when something breaks, the player can see the mistake and learn from it. You cannot build anything big from scratch without that
06:31:54  <Flygon> I've been building for over 24 months dangit :P
06:33:04  <V453000> not enuf :)
06:38:46  <Flygon> Whelp
06:38:51  <Flygon> That's as good as it's gonna get...
06:38:57  <Flygon> The quadriplating wasn't the problem
06:39:14  <Flygon> Building a 100% new junction to handle 6-8 seperate lines going through it was
06:49:06  <V453000> I would like to see that
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07:15:08  <Flygon> V453000: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdquadriplationwip.png I stretched the definition of lines, of course
07:15:15  <Flygon> And not all of them are 100% active (eg. frequent pax.) yet
07:16:51  <V453000> oh you call quadruple 2+2 :D
07:17:01  <V453000> btw that isnt very frequent indeed, lets see later
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07:21:26  <Xaroth|Work> Flygon: that line between Topeka Westfarm and Salina mines looks a bit off
07:23:42  <Flygon> V453000: Yeah. Pax normally ramps up the frequency
07:23:58  <peter1139> oh fuck
07:24:06  <peter1139> dog keeps farting :(
07:24:08  <Flygon> Xaroth: Probably because it's unfinished
07:24:11  <Flygon> Hence the WIP
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07:24:36  <Flygon> I'm going to have to completely remove the mine stations, and probably convert them to a RoRo design to faciliate cooperating with quadding
07:25:19  <peter1139> Quadriplating? Is that like goldplating?
07:25:29  <Flygon> Yes
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08:32:13  <talebowl> I've been looking on the wiki and the forums for conventions for measuring patch performance, and found mostly snippets, so I was hoping some of you might be able to fill in some blanks. What I know so far is that I can use the TIC and TOC macro's for built-in performance measuring. Furthermore, I should use openttdcoop savegames for somewhat realistic results (I also read something about configuring with --disable-ai?). I guess that
08:32:13  <talebowl>  what I'm looking for is how I should do the actual test (which, of course, depends on the test subject. Performancetesting a patched backend algorithm would be quite different from testing a gui-related patch, I'd assume). In this case, I have a patch that acts on the main viewport (to be more detailed: it highlights the biggest possible combined surface when funding a new industry, taking into account the different layouts possible
08:32:13  <talebowl> ). What I'm looking for is: how do I invoke the necessary interface actions programmatorically, or do I have to do that manually (which wouldn't really be ideal, having to do that, say, 2*50 times, aside from being less reliable)?
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08:48:59  <peter1139> Does that need benchmarking?
08:54:03  <talebowl> The way it currently is, probably not, but I'm considering trying to do some of the checks that happen after the location has been chosen (location, proximity to others etc) before selecting a location, which, I think, would certainly need benchmarking. Also, I thought it would be useful to measure it anyway, in the current state, to have some idea of the effects (there doesn't seem to be too much of an impact, as far as I can tell w
08:54:03  <talebowl> ithout measuring)
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09:08:32  <toobored`> Flygon: how did you do it to make your network look so nice/organized?
09:08:55  <Flygon> 22 years of OCD
09:09:39  <toobored`> hehehehe
09:10:05  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdtracklayoutmassive.png My older stuff looked stupid
09:10:19  <toobored`> i just started playing again after many years and i'm still struggling with signals/pre-signals and multi-in/multi-out stations
09:10:50  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/newfinnrail1992networkmap.png I'm sad I never completed this
09:10:54  <peter1139> Don't bother with presignals.
09:10:55  <toobored`> let me show you mine... although I did plan for capacity.... I made the mistake of having the wrong orientation
09:11:52  <Flygon> I only use block signals, one way signals, and the one way signals you can pass behind
09:11:56  <Flygon> All others are not too useful
09:12:27  <peter1139> Rubbish, only path signals are needed.
09:12:38  <toobored`> peter1139: that's what i'm understanding now
09:12:39  <peter1139> Presignals if you want to do silly stuff with 'priorities'
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09:13:27  <peter1139> V453000 obviously isn't here :D
09:13:36  <V453000> teach people horseshit I dont care
09:14:20  <V453000> using block signals helped every single person I met so far, but stay ignorant
09:14:23  <toobored`> Flygon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mgzprx6bwpkp7go/Screenshot%20from%202014-06-13%2012%3A12%3A05.png
09:14:53  <toobored`> V453000: imho the GUI/docs are broken about pre-signals
09:15:17  <V453000> in what way?
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09:15:28  <toobored`> wiki says that I have to press Ctrl-Click
09:15:46  <toobored`> however doing that ,at least in 1.4.1, gives me an old-style signal
09:15:46  <peter1139> Holy-90°-bend
09:16:02  <V453000> yes, you have to press ctrl key and click after the signal is built
09:16:05  <V453000> build it first
09:16:09  <V453000> then cycle through signals by ctrl clicking
09:16:10  <Flygon> toobored`: You go for more function than me
09:16:14  <Flygon> Also
09:16:16  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/bridgemaster2.png
09:16:18  <Flygon> I was bored
09:16:22  <toobored`> I know, I plan to remove them at some point
09:16:54  <toobored`> (the 90 deg. bends)
09:17:44  <V453000> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:Psg193_BRIDGES.png bridgez?
09:17:55  <toobored`> V453000: about that. I do not remember the color/shape of the signals by heart. so ctrl-clicking and cycling through them is hard
09:18:49  <V453000> yet. :)
09:19:03  <toobored`> i don't want to man :P have already enough in my head
09:19:25  <toobored`> i jsut want a gui, exit pre-signal click it click at the grid, ready
09:19:34  <V453000> there is a gui?
09:20:03  <toobored`> there is a gui for the simple signal. for a pre-signal I have to build and then ctrl-click and cycle
09:20:13  <V453000> what :0
09:20:22  <V453000> there isnt gui for presignals? always was
09:20:40  <V453000> will check after lunch, cya for now
09:20:40  <peter1139> There is a GUI.
09:20:46  <Flygon> V453000: Needs more psudo-bridgeunderbridge
09:21:16  <toobored`> peter1139: then I haven't understood anything..
09:21:16  <peter1139> In advanced settings, filter on signal. Interface -> Construction -> Enable the signal GUI
09:21:26  <peter1139> Or Ctrl-click on the signal button in the toolbar.
09:21:46  <toobored`> ok. i have that.
09:21:54  <peter1139> By default most people don't need it because everyone can just use path signals.
09:22:24  <V453000> people who cany play very well typically do that, yes.
09:22:31  <V453000> cany/cant
09:23:01  <toobored`> ok I have that. the problem is what V453000 said. that I have to build first and then to make it a pre-, ctrl-click it again
09:23:13  <toobored`> or that's what I understood
09:23:15  <toobored`> baffled.
09:23:44  <peter1139> If you have the signal GUI open, you can just select the presignal you want.
09:24:34  <toobored`> ok.
09:24:42  <peter1139> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signal_GUI
09:25:47  <toobored`> a thanks that clears things up
09:26:38  <toobored`> btw cargo dist is extremely funny
09:27:21  <toobored`> I was thinking the other day, if one can control the 'weight' of a specific 'graph'
09:28:09  <toobored`> for example if you connect two independent networks with an airport, I would assign a weight to it in order not to flood the new pipe
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09:33:32  <Flygon> toobored`: I'll get a full screenie of the completed quadriplation soon
09:33:39  <Flygon> So you can see how disorganized it really is
09:33:53  <Flygon> Had to grade seperate a few junctions
09:33:56  <Flygon> And it looks uuuuuugly
09:34:14  <peter1139> quadrification
09:34:57  <Flygon> iunno
09:35:01  <Flygon> Where I am, we say plate
09:35:28  <peter1139> Quadruplication, maybe.
09:35:42  <Flygon> Ah, yes
09:35:44  <Flygon> That's what I meant
09:36:40  <peter1139> I'd probably go with quad-track tbh :)
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09:49:41  <Flygon> toobored`: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdquadcomplete.png Full quadding. It's messy. Big file alert.
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09:52:48  <peter1139> Hmm, need to implement ship collisions...
09:52:54  <Flygon> Good idea
09:53:01  <Flygon> A lot of these ships are from pre-rail era
09:53:02  <toobored`> Flygon: no probs with big files anymore. they just upgraded me to 50/10 vdsl
09:53:03  <toobored`> :D
09:53:06  <Flygon> The game started in 1705
09:53:26  <toobored`> jesus.
09:53:30  <Flygon> toobored`: I'm only on 24/1 (17-19/0.9 realistically) ADSL =/
09:54:27  <Flygon> ADSL2+ specifically
09:54:32  <Flygon> I can't bloody wait for Fibre
09:54:36  <Flygon> 100/40 POOOOOWAAAAAG
09:55:19  <Flygon> 250/100 if I can afford it
09:55:20  <Flygon> :3
09:55:24  <Flygon> But chances are
09:55:29  <Flygon> My new house will be on a RIM =/
09:56:06  <toobored`> Flygon: adsl2+ is what I had as well. 50/10 now syncs to 45/10.
09:56:09  <toobored`> what's RIM?
09:56:10  <Flygon> peter1139: I gotta remove all those boats some point
09:56:23  <Flygon> They require really big bridges to not look stupid, but clip anyway
09:56:33  <Flygon> And this's not getting into the river width thing you mentioned
09:56:44  <Flygon> toobored`: UUuh.... minature telephone exchange
09:56:46  <peter1139> Mine was 18/1, but it dropped to 12/1 :(
09:57:08  <Flygon> http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/rim_remote_integrated_multiplexer
09:57:15  <toobored`> damn peter1139
09:57:30  <toobored`> although i'm pretty sure with popcorn time can stream 1080p
09:57:55  <peter1139> Streaming video never interested me.
09:58:16  <Flygon> RIM is a genericifieed term here
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09:59:07  <toobored`> Flygon: so no ADSL over a pair implemented with RIM
09:59:20  <Flygon> RIMs have less phone ports than ADSL ports
09:59:33  <Flygon> And it's Telstra ADSL, regardless of the ISP you use
09:59:36  <Flygon> So you can't get Annex M
09:59:43  <Flygon> I REQUIRE faster uploads
09:59:45  <Flygon> But, nope
09:59:52  <Flygon> Telstra hate you
10:00:22  <toobored`> on the last file you uploaded, what's the point of starting a game from 1700?
10:01:10  <peter1139> Because you can :)
10:01:16  <Flygon> I wanted to see how I'd handle having awful boats and road vehicles
10:01:18  <Flygon> As it turns out
10:01:28  <Flygon> I totally abused the hell out of OTTD's water mechanics
10:01:53  <peter1139> You probably want less time-penalties in those early years.
10:02:27  <toobored`> peter1139: i think that even on a large map, your towns will grow VERY large.
10:02:37  <Flygon> I used default penalties
10:02:46  <Flygon> toobored`: That's why I turned off towns building roads
10:02:48  <Flygon> To prevent that
10:03:06  <Flygon> I know it's very... hackish
10:03:10  <Flygon> But it's the best solution I got
10:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> talebowl: the easiest (and least accurate) method of performance check is "make run-prof"
10:07:12  <talebowl> I'll take a look, thanks :)
10:08:50  <Flygon> toobored`: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottddenvercomplex.png Pretty, or nightmare? :D
10:09:55  <peter1139> Heh, you still have old vehicle warnings enabled...
10:10:24  <toobored`> Flygon: it's pretty. although I'd like a screenshot of multiple trains entering/leaving the station :P
10:10:42  <Flygon> toobored`: Still haven't ramped up running vehicles, sorry x3
10:10:48  <Flygon> I had a suburban system running in Denver
10:10:49  <Xaroth|Work> RAMP IT UP
10:10:52  <Flygon> But it was too unprofitable
10:11:09  <Flygon> I needed to triple head to get the desired acceleration
10:11:43  <toobored`> oooh. it's still the 1880s
10:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> talebowl: might neeed "./configure --enable-debug=! --enable-profiling"
10:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "=1"
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10:13:34  <Flygon> Also, excuse the weird terminus o the 'Denver Pax' platforms
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10:13:49  <Flygon> It's a temporary terminus. As you can tell by the line sticking out the rear
10:13:55  <toobored`> does "Road layout for new towns" affect only *new* towns in the save game?
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10:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause> toobored`: correct
10:17:44  <Flygon> I love how the Consolidation locos look when at speed, but not struggling to take off
10:17:51  <Flygon> The smoke looks quite... hard worky
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10:21:19  <Flygon> Just a shame they still struggle to haul freight at fast enough acceleration to be hugely useful at RoRo stations x.x
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17:33:14  <__ln__> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/freight/single-view/view/colas-rail-and-tnt-tests-express-rail-logistics.html
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18:08:00  <Wolf01> hello o/
18:12:09  <Alberth> moin
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18:28:11  <Alberth> quak
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18:44:30  <frosch123> hai
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19:01:28  <Rubidium> good evening
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20:50:38  <toobored`> alo
20:54:23  <Taede> evening
20:54:36  <toobored`> have another question with regards to cargodist. let's say I connect to my rail network a distant airport. due to the distance effect, that destination stole a lot of cargo for that airport.
20:55:17  <toobored`> if i remove the destination from routing, what happens to the cargo waiting for that destination?
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20:58:37  <fonsinchen> If you completely kill the link the cargo will be rerouted
20:58:49  <Diablo_D3> whats cargodist?
20:58:59  <fonsinchen> If there is no new destination for the cargo it will go "via any station".
20:59:28  <fonsinchen> http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist
20:59:57  <fonsinchen> But the distant airport should get only a small part of the cargo, except if you set the distance effect very low.
21:00:04  <Diablo_D3> huh thats an interesting thing
21:00:14  <Diablo_D3> no server runs with it?
21:00:18  <toobored`> fonsinchen: thanks. the wiki page didn't clarify what you said.
21:00:19  *** Diablo_D3 is now known as Diablo-D3
21:00:35  <fonsinchen> The wiki page is for Diablo-D3
21:01:44  * Diablo-D3 sighs and launches openttd
21:02:12  <Diablo-D3> maybe someday the opengl blitter patch will be put into trunk
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21:11:47  <peter1139> Hahah
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21:16:15  <frosch123> maybe we can find something else than can be abbreviated as opengl
21:22:13  <Xaroth|Work> open game list?
21:24:05  <frosch123> maybe andy and v can assemble a library of generic vehicle/building/cargo graphics, which people can use for rapid grf development: "open graphics library" or so
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21:32:46  <Rubidium> what's the point of using a *very* suboptimal technology for something?
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21:43:19  <frosch123> night
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22:30:01  <Wolf01> 'NIGHT ALL
22:30:09  <Wolf01> *lowercase
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