Log for #openttd on 21st July 2014:
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07:10:40  <V453000> bundling 1/789 files
07:10:41  <V453000> fun
07:10:51  <V453000> tortoisehg getting some serious job :D
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07:15:11  <planetmaker> hm :)
07:17:17  <V453000> iz it ok that I had to --force after merging with the translation allowing commit?
07:17:30  <V453000> when pushing
07:18:26  <planetmaker> what? Force push?
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07:18:44  <V453000> tortoise told me I should either merge or --force, and I did merge
07:19:01  <planetmaker> but if you had to force the push after the merge, you didn't merge everything
07:19:09  <V453000> hm :|
07:19:30  <planetmaker> or didn't commit the merge?
07:20:57  <V453000>
07:21:01  <V453000> I think I did
07:21:32  <planetmaker> ah, you merged correctly. But did not pull the latest translation changes, I think
07:21:42  <planetmaker> there's 3 translation commits and your log shows none
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07:22:03  <planetmaker> thus, when push is done, pull again and merge again. No harm done
07:22:11  <planetmaker> (and push again)
07:22:35  <planetmaker> but releaste 0.0.6 possibly which includes translations :P
07:22:53  <peter1138> derpaherp
07:22:59  <V453000> alright
07:23:33  <V453000> well it will probably keep pushing for a few hours now :P
07:23:40  <planetmaker> :D
07:26:13  <V453000> but I made major progress in defining sprites
07:26:31  <V453000> next step I will try to create only moving objects and move them over the base tiles
07:26:48  <planetmaker> oh :)
07:27:00  <planetmaker> so separating ground and animation? Or how can I understand that?
07:27:14  <V453000> yeah
07:27:19  <planetmaker> sweet
07:27:21  <V453000> so the animation is as small as possible
07:27:42  <V453000> I managed to at least cut sprites correctly now, NML doesnt need to do it anymore
07:27:53  <planetmaker> not sure it's worth it, though. Except you definitely want some ground sprite definitions for your industries
07:27:59  <V453000>
07:28:04  <V453000> eh
07:28:07  <V453000>
07:28:15  <V453000> it definitely is worth it
07:28:29  <planetmaker> If you're happy with it, fine
07:28:29  <V453000> every small decrease in size of the animation means a lot of decrease in the total file size
07:28:41  <planetmaker> yeah, true
07:28:52  <planetmaker> and it helps with that a lot?
07:28:54  <V453000> and I think masking out the animated objects could be 50% or more of saving
07:29:09  <V453000> well the animation sprites will become mostly transparent
07:29:26  <V453000> ofc depends on how much is animated, some industries will save more, some less
07:29:37  <planetmaker> yeah
07:29:44  <planetmaker> not sure about the factory :P
07:29:54  <V453000> it still is a lot I think
07:30:10  <V453000> one has to be careful about reflections/shadows, but still there are quite a few spaces on the buildings
07:30:24  <V453000> but yeah, that one is definitely the least efficient in this
07:30:35  <andythenorth> V453000: I started out drawing ‘big’ multi-tile industries
07:30:39  <planetmaker> well, the overlay sprites can have alpha. So shadow could be simulated by their means, too
07:30:43  <andythenorth> now I try and make each building fit to 1 tile
07:31:06  <andythenorth> easier to slice, easier to animate, easier to rearrange
07:31:19  <V453000> planetmaker: yes but making reflections and affections by light are way too tedious / almost impossible to render
07:31:28  <V453000> so it is more convenient to simply mask every tile by hand
07:31:36  <V453000> I get that andythenorth :)
07:32:05  <V453000> my stuff is simply not re-arrangeable, by design kind of
07:33:58  <planetmaker> I understand :)
07:37:05  <V453000> lets see how good size it can get me
07:37:26  <V453000> the bad cutting method i used before already used up like twice as much space as I use now
07:37:50  <V453000> 100MB per industry is what I originally expected
07:37:53  <V453000> but could be better :>
07:41:43  <andythenorth> the spritesheets are in the repo?
07:41:51  <V453000> pushing them now
07:42:08  <V453000> here I wrote an example how I do it now
07:42:28  <V453000> so the final base spritesheet is this now
07:44:42  <andythenorth> V453000: and there’s one of those for every frame?
07:44:51  <V453000> exactly
07:45:24  <andythenorth> some of the sprites are unchanged per frame?
07:45:30  <andythenorth> you could maybe drop some
07:45:53  <V453000> rather some sprite areas
07:46:01  <V453000> but it is easier to mask them in after effects than remove them in the code
07:46:11  <andythenorth>
07:46:25  <V453000> so supplying (almost) fully transparent sprite looks like a more convenient and mainly universal solution
07:46:39  <andythenorth> +1
07:46:47  <V453000> :)
07:47:05  <V453000> in total it is probably more work, but should save a lot more grfsize
07:47:21  <V453000> e.g. tiles where half animates and half doesnt
07:47:27  <V453000> which is like vast majority of them
07:47:40  <andythenorth> are you also doing snow?
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07:48:56  <V453000> MightLater(tm)
07:48:58  <V453000> idk really
07:49:10  <andythenorth> snow will add a lot of file size :P
07:49:13  <V453000> if it should cause the grfsize to double, I am not so sure it is a good idea
07:49:36  <andythenorth> but Yetis like snow so much :)
07:50:10  <V453000> which is true :D
07:50:26  <V453000> I dont know really :) that is one of the things I have not quite considered
07:51:57  <V453000> well perhaps
07:52:05  <V453000> if I just overlay some static parts with snow bits
07:52:13  <V453000> it would look good already, without increasing the size oh so much
07:52:17  <V453000> by not animating
07:52:40  <V453000> so yeah, could happen :D
07:52:43  <V453000> :P
07:54:10  <planetmaker> snow certainly would add a lot to the flair :)
07:54:51  <planetmaker> or maybe simply a ground-tile aware overlay: temperate, arctic and tropical grass, snow and desert
07:54:56  <planetmaker> could change small things
07:55:06  <V453000> yeah, something like that
07:55:18  <planetmaker> like a small patch of grass or green growing in a hidden place. A small patch of sandy dirt or snow
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08:00:24  <retakk> *download your program*
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08:08:18  <retakk> it works :)
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08:26:03  <V453000> hm, YETI does not overwrite the original cargoes, so it often happens that there is Food 2 times, original Paper, Goods etc
08:26:29  <V453000> should I just disable_item(FEAT_CARGOES); or something?
08:26:40  <V453000> but I guess disabling pax/mail isnt the best idea
08:27:11  <V453000> -> better idea to remove all, and make yeti define pax/mail ont itself?
08:28:28  <planetmaker> just remove all but mail and pax
08:28:43  <V453000> how do I do that?
08:28:58  <planetmaker> by specifying the range of cargo IDs to disable :)
08:29:08  <planetmaker> disable_item(feature[, first_id[, last_id]]);
08:29:21  <planetmaker> pax and mail are the first two, thus 0 and 1
08:30:20  <planetmaker> I *think*. Let's look
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08:34:31  <planetmaker> actually FIRS does it like 'disable all' and 're-enable those we need'
08:34:43  <planetmaker> <-- search for 'disable_item'
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08:53:27  <planetmaker> pulling nuts takes some time :P
08:53:38  <V453000> mhm :)
08:53:48  <V453000> some of the psd files might be a big biggy
08:54:47  <planetmaker> happens
08:55:23  <planetmaker> and then I realise I wanted to pull yeti :P
08:56:11  <V453000> :>
08:56:24  <planetmaker> omg, is your push still not complete?
08:56:49  <V453000> no :D
08:56:54  <V453000> I would have said
08:57:06  <V453000> 496/789
08:59:20  <V453000> taking kind of long :P
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09:50:19  <__ln__> in countries like .de and .nl where carrying an id with you is mandatory, is it mandatory to own an id?
09:50:48  <Xaroth|Work> well you can't carry one if you don't own it :P
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09:50:58  <Xaroth|Work> but in most cases a driver's license suffices as an ID
09:51:07  <Yotson> and in NL you actually never 'own' the id... :)
09:51:26  <Yotson> you sort of borrow it from the gov.
09:51:45  <Yotson> well, rent actually. as you have to pay for it. lol
09:52:03  <__ln__> yes, the cost would have been my second question.
09:52:50  <Xaroth|Work> there has been some debate on that the past years
09:53:15  <Xaroth|Work> about the gov not being allowed for something you -have- to have
09:53:50  <Xaroth|Work> so the cost of an ID could then only be the cost to produce, not the administrative cost they added to it
09:53:50  <__ln__> in .fi it's not mandatory to carry an id, and neither is it mandatory to own/possess any kind of id. for elections one can get a short-term temporary id for free, if one doesn't have any other.
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10:06:43  <V453000> planetmaker:  [command completed successfully Mon Jul 21 11:59:28 2014] :P
10:06:53  <V453000> pushi pushi dun
10:08:00  <planetmaker> holy pigcow :D
10:08:18  <V453000> trying to pull and merge the new translation things
10:08:59  <V453000> looks like success
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10:15:28  <planetmaker> looks like
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10:56:58  <retakk> narf. why cant i buy a new train. i habe enough money. but there are no available trains :(
10:58:25  <__ln__> what year is it?
10:58:30  <retakk> 2025
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10:59:24  <__ln__> are you using some bizarre newgrf that doesn't have trains in 2025?
10:59:57  <retakk> i don't think so
11:01:27  <planetmaker> you're trying to buy them for the wrong rail type. Monorail or maglev might work
11:01:36  <planetmaker> normal rail expires somewhen
11:02:06  <retakk> okay
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11:05:59  <V453000> which is also quite fucking broken :P
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11:07:28  <planetmaker> Depends on view
11:07:47  <V453000> well since there is no convenient way to replace from rail to other railtypes, it is very broken
11:08:48  <planetmaker> mass-convert all rail tiles?
11:08:55  <V453000> and trains?
11:09:08  <planetmaker> buy new :)
11:09:23  <V453000> ...
11:09:41  <V453000> doing that with 300+ trains is so tedious that everybody would rather start a new game
11:09:43  <V453000> for no real reason
11:10:00  <V453000> letting e.g. SH40 and AsiaStar not expire would make a lot of sense
11:11:12  <planetmaker> of course, it would
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11:13:08  <planetmaker> which leads us back to: what could solve it, is a default choice of NewGRFs which are active unless you change it. They could fix all these problems
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11:29:40  <V453000> quite
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12:21:01  <__ln__> also, it is not realistic for normal rail to expire
12:21:36  <V453000> !!
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12:35:18  <V453000> where is defined Industry creation types ?
12:35:35  <V453000> I found this value IND_CREATION_PROSPECT 	Industry is prospected by the player
12:35:39  <V453000> but I dont know where to set it :d
12:37:13  <planetmaker> it's a property
12:37:33  <V453000> I must be blind :D
12:37:34  <planetmaker> well, value for a property
12:37:47  <planetmaker> perfectly possible :P
12:37:51  <V453000> well yeah I get that it is avalue but I cant find the property name :D
12:39:00  <planetmaker>  life_type basically covers that
12:39:19  <planetmaker> if you want it more detailed, you need to go for the construction callback and check various variables
12:39:41  <V453000> oh
12:39:46  <V453000> so setting life
12:39:47  <planetmaker> like founder_type
12:40:02  <V453000> life_type for everything to like blackhole would do the thing?
12:40:15  <V453000> I want everything to be prospected
12:40:16  <planetmaker> yeah. processing is usually allowed to be funded while the primary can be prospected (as ressources must be found)
12:40:27  <planetmaker> V453000, it#s a setting you can't control
12:40:46  <planetmaker> don't try to override the openttd setting by being a dick
12:40:58  <V453000> wat :D
12:41:01  <planetmaker> :)
12:41:03  <V453000> I just want my industries to prospect
12:41:05  <V453000> thats all
12:41:14  <V453000> funding everything looks weird
12:41:32  <planetmaker> it's an advanced setting. Start openttd and look there
12:41:49  <planetmaker> it's not a newgrf thing. at least by less than 50%
12:42:26  <planetmaker> the life_type defines what is primary and secondary. The rest is not your influence and player choice
12:42:29  <V453000> there I obviously have it to prospect, I am assuming the problem is that I have all of my industries coded as life_type: IND_LIFE_TYPE_PROCESSING
12:42:32  <V453000> right
12:42:34  <V453000> that is what I needed :D
12:43:05  <planetmaker> players can always choose 'fund all'. Or 'fund processing, prospect primary'.
12:43:20  <V453000> yes
12:43:32  <planetmaker> so just set the type correctly :)
12:43:47  <planetmaker> prospecting for a factory is not a good thing either imho
12:43:54  <V453000> ye, will make factories funded
12:44:02  <V453000> question is what technically is a factory in yeti :P
12:44:07  <planetmaker> :)
12:44:08  <V453000> everything that doesnt get workers :)
12:44:15  <planetmaker> anything not 1*
12:44:33  <planetmaker> 1* is primary, thus ressource extraction, iirc?
12:44:47  <V453000> no :P
12:45:11  <planetmaker> any up to date scheme?
12:45:19  <V453000> 4X is worker yard -> 1A 1B 1C are mines -> 1X is the one which accepts things fromo 1A 1B 1C
12:45:23  <V453000> so 1X is secondary :P
12:45:33  <V453000> yeah but schemes dont have the numbering atm XD
12:45:36  <V453000> can fix
12:45:58  <planetmaker> those which produce stone, wood, clay, animals, grain, fruit, uranium, ore and oil reasonably are primary
12:46:19  <planetmaker> all others are of type processing
12:46:49  <planetmaker> (not many left :P )
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12:47:46  <V453000> yeah
12:47:53  <V453000> well I also have worker yard as primary
12:49:00  <planetmaker> for that I'd argue differently to allow building yeti towns instead of scattering them too much. But well, dunno :)
12:49:55  <V453000> there is a lot of them for the player to choose already I think
12:50:17  <V453000> but your point makes sense too
12:50:22  <V453000> I will leave it on prospecting for now
12:51:08  <planetmaker> gives the impression that yetis emerge from earth and must be found :P instead of allowing settlement programmes
12:51:36  <planetmaker> yeti mine :D
12:52:09  <V453000> kayz
12:52:14  <V453000> lets make it funded
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13:36:23  <V453000> planetmaker:  scheme. :P
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16:52:54  <MTsPony> Does anyone know how to change nick/rejoin channel/or reconnect irc with autopilot?
16:53:04  <MTsPony> on a running server
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17:20:52  <planetmaker> you can't
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17:29:21  <Wolf01> hello o/
17:31:22  <Wolf01> mmmh, any svn guru to help me with a dilemma?
17:34:00  <Wolf01> with externals in sub-sub folders (like "/foo/bar/externals"), is better to create the folders for the main project or let the externals do all the stuff as 'myexternal' => '/foo/bar/externals/myexternal'
17:35:20  <Wolf01> that's because I get inconsistent update logs with different svn clients, but all works as expectly
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17:46:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26698 trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt (2014-07-21 17:46:01 UTC)
17:46:10  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:11  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by
17:46:12  <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 30 changes by odisseus
17:52:50  <V453000> 32bpp bullshit moved to graphics development XD
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18:03:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26699 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2014-07-21 18:03:05 UTC)
18:03:11  <DorpsGek> -Fix-ish: do not crash when trying to show an error about vehicle in a NewGRF and the NewGRF was not loaded at all
18:03:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26700 /trunk/src/saveload (order_sl.cpp saveload.cpp) (2014-07-21 18:03:32 UTC)
18:03:40  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6066]: incorrect saving of order backups
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18:15:29  <andythenorth> o/
18:22:15  <FLHerne_> "do not crash when trying to show an error about vehicle in a NewGRF and the NewGRF was not loaded at all" Huh?
18:24:14  <frosch123> don't worry, won't happen to normal users
18:24:28  <frosch123> only if you do nothing nasty
18:26:09  * FLHerne_ was wondering how the game can know about the error at all if the GRF isn't loaded
18:27:48  <Rubidium> it's the "changing capacity" check in this case; due to the capacity being done with a callback, the capacity can (in theory) change at any moment. However, it may only change in depots (or at refits?)
18:28:51  <Rubidium> during loading a game you can check the capacity as stored in the vehicle against the one you'd get using the normal capacity resolution methods (in case of no NewGRF -> fallback to default), and in this case the default is not equal to the actual capacity as stored in the savegame for the vehicle
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18:28:53  <frosch123> it will also happen for short vehicles
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18:30:15  <Rubidium> since the default vehicles do not have anything w.r.t. changing capacities, the assumption is made that the NewGRF is returning a "wrong" result
18:34:24  <FLHerne_> And you can get that error before the grf providing the vehicle is loaded? I think I see
18:35:50  <Rubidium> well... it's normally after the NewGRF is loaded. But in this case it is simply not loaded and will never be loaded because it is missing, and the (UI) NewGRF check is simply ignored (command line)
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18:45:24  <andythenorth> @seen alberth
18:45:24  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 22 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <Alberth> gn
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20:48:41  <planetmaker> g'night
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21:01:56  <andythenorth> bye
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21:11:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you didn’t suggest lambda? o_O
21:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: close :)
21:12:45  <andythenorth> I have never written a lambda
21:12:50  <andythenorth> but also bed time :P
21:12:51  <andythenorth> bye
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21:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ... lambda is for when you're too lazy to write a named function
21:25:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so there were only 3 active topics in the 32bpp forum?
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21:37:46  <Brumi> strings bugreport: STR_CONFIG_SETTING_TERRAIN_TYPE_HELPTEXT shouldn't be '(TerraGenesis only)'
21:41:47  <frosch123> hmm, true, i remember it being a difficulty setting
21:41:58  <frosch123> though the mapgen gui is just as buggy, as it disabled the dropdown
21:45:41  <frosch123> same for water amount
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21:46:50  <Brumi> when using the original landscape generator? It doesn't disable those dropdowns for me
21:48:13  <frosch123> hmm, it's more complicated
21:48:17  <frosch123> it depends on climate
21:48:31  <Brumi> yeah now I see
21:49:01  <Brumi> but I wouldn't consider that a bug
21:49:06  <frosch123> how insane
21:49:27  <Brumi> sub-arctic and sub-tropical has almost fixed maps when using original generator
21:49:36  <frosch123> well, the tooltip shall say, when the settings have no effect :p
21:49:58  <Brumi> yeah
21:50:23  <Brumi> so instead of 'TerraGenesis only' we should add an extra sentence describing this
21:52:02  <frosch123> night
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21:52:29  <Brumi> gn
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22:11:20  <Wolf01> 'night
22:11:34  <__ln__> 'night Wolf01
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23:02:23  <MTsPony> hello all. Ive noticed a new cfg option since recent revisions, "support8bpp = no"
23:02:38  <MTsPony> can anyone elaborate on this?
23:05:58  <peter1138> Modern OSes don't cater for 8bpp video modes very well.
23:06:52  <MTsPony> does this option only apply to full screen mode?
23:08:42  <peter1138> I dunno what it actually does :p
23:08:51  <MTsPony> ok lol
23:14:05  <glx> I think it's related to fullscreen
23:14:27  <glx> usually window mode uses whatever the desktop does
23:14:38  <glx> but I can be wrong
23:15:11  <glx> (and I don't want to start looking in the code)
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23:34:15  <MTsPony> no you already did that last time, which i thank you for, cuz its working now :)
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