Config
Log for #openttd on 5th August 2014:
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11:00:05  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
11:00:05  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 13 hours, 52 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Pikka> also goodnight, then
11:00:10  <andythenorth> still no pikkas
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11:58:37  <andythenorth> ship progression is ~pointless
11:59:00  <andythenorth> the only valid progression is slow ships -> fast ships
11:59:20  <andythenorth> i.e. standard hull -> hydrofoil / hovercraft
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12:13:40  <V453000> andythenorth: congratulations on the research progress :P
12:13:58  <andythenorth> fanks
12:14:11  <andythenorth> did you reach the same conclusion?
12:14:15  <andythenorth> can we publish a paper?
12:14:22  * andythenorth hates ships
12:14:27  <andythenorth> trains are much easier, much more fun
12:14:56  <peter1138> Don't buy stupid, pipelines are where it's at.
12:15:01  <peter1138> s/buy/be/
12:16:10  <andythenorth> pipelines are awesome
12:16:13  <andythenorth> but not for cows
12:16:22  <andythenorth> or steel coil
12:16:26  <andythenorth> hmm
12:16:29  <andythenorth> actually
12:16:36  <andythenorth> V453000: ^ want to make a set?
12:16:39  <andythenorth> transparent tubes
12:16:49  <andythenorth> roll coils, slide cows etc
12:17:56  <V453000> I already said I might draw something like that
12:17:59  <V453000> when is not sure :)
12:18:17  <V453000> also for cows
12:20:07  <andythenorth> wtf shall I do about ships?
12:20:16  <andythenorth> they all suck
12:23:18  <Rubidium> too bad ships don't block eachother, otherwise you could sink ships and then those "sunk" ships could become reefs over time without the ships passing along
12:23:48  <peter1138> Too bad...
12:23:56  <peter1138> I don't even have a patch for that.
12:24:18  <Rubidium> that it... the end of the universe as we knew it
12:24:53  <Rubidium> +'s
12:25:51  <peter1138> # It's the end of the univerve as we know it, and I'm alriiiiiight.
12:26:11  <andythenorth> inwisible ships?
12:26:17  <andythenorth> everything moves by submarine?
12:26:53  <peter1138> Teleportation.
12:26:59  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_submarine
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13:12:43  <andythenorth> teleportation
13:12:47  <andythenorth> but only along fixed paths
13:12:52  <andythenorth> V453000: ^ ?
13:15:02  <V453000> wat
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13:15:26  <andythenorth> you build ‘lines’
13:15:28  <V453000> PS high speeds are retarded, see vactrains
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13:15:30  <andythenorth> for ‘teleporters'
13:15:46  <V453000> I think some pipey thingz would be nice
13:15:50  <V453000> might try to render somez
13:16:06  <V453000> would not be brutal amount of work either
13:16:31  <andythenorth> should be transparent
13:16:38  <andythenorth> with trains marked with little circles for cargo
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13:16:39  <V453000> yeah, half-transparent
13:16:40  <andythenorth> or something
13:16:48  <andythenorth> I am rethinking
13:16:49  <V453000> no, just fluid
13:17:03  <V453000> you just have a pipe and see some liquid travel through it as a train
13:17:06  <andythenorth> I am bored of not-quite-good-enough realistic graphics
13:17:08  <V453000> relatively easy and would look nice
13:17:16  <andythenorth> +1
13:17:24  <V453000> alternatively it could be an U pipe
13:17:32  <V453000> so you could see into it from the top without transparency
13:18:17  <V453000> could do :P
13:18:31  <andythenorth> :)
13:18:35  <andythenorth> also log flumes
13:18:42  <V453000> exactly what I thought about
13:18:45  <V453000> [wetrail]
13:18:54  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_flume
13:19:05  <V453000> might try something tonight, I actually have everything I need to make rails, except slopes
13:19:14  <andythenorth> bored of realism, but I am not imaginative enough to come up with alternatives
13:19:36  <V453000> your teddy bear will tell you alternatives
13:19:48  <andythenorth> actually, my current favourite thing is things that were real, but never made it past prototype stage
13:19:59  <andythenorth> alternate histories
13:20:17  <V453000> mhm
13:20:27  <V453000> sooo
13:20:45  <V453000> what use should the pipeline have? :P
13:21:17  <andythenorth> oil and crap
13:21:25  <andythenorth> also James Bond
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13:23:05  <V453000> why just oil :P
13:23:09  <V453000> everything can be liquified
13:23:26  <V453000> livestock can just be red
13:23:27  <V453000> eazy
13:23:44  <andythenorth> milk
13:24:12  <andythenorth> maglev pipeline
13:24:14  <andythenorth> for steel coils
13:24:21  <andythenorth> would probably work pretty well
13:25:18  <V453000> I wouldnt discriminate any cargo type :)
13:25:20  <V453000> if one, then all
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13:25:37  <andythenorth> I was thinking in RL
13:25:40  <andythenorth> I might patent it
13:26:00  <V453000> LOL
13:26:34  <V453000> ok you know what
13:26:41  <V453000> I will try to remake PURR into 32bpp tonight
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13:26:56  <V453000> creating some pipeline is just re-rendering with different model
13:27:03  <V453000> the trains would probably be eazy
13:27:19  <V453000> go think of a creative grf name :P
13:28:04  <andythenorth> MUSH
13:28:55  <V453000> wtf
13:30:20  <V453000> wat does it stand for?
13:31:36  <andythenorth> nothing
13:32:35  <peter1138> multi-user shared hallucination
13:32:44  <andythenorth> also you shout it at dogs
13:32:51  <andythenorth> or you mush things in a blender
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13:33:42  <V453000> hmmm
13:34:50  <V453000> FLOOD Liquid O.O. Displacement ? .d
13:35:16  <andythenorth> FLOOD is GOOD
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13:37:48  <V453000> FLOOD THE DUTCH
13:38:26  <V453000> can you imagine how awesome would it be if the station sprites would turn into pipe ends and pools? XD
13:38:44  <andythenorth> try it?
13:38:45  <V453000> well more like sewers
13:38:54  <V453000> well yeah but how would the train look :P
13:39:00  <andythenorth> 'meh'
13:39:01  <V453000> also how should empty tranez look
13:39:07  <andythenorth> trans
13:39:13  <andythenorth> have you tried PIPE?
13:39:13  <V453000> + need signolz
13:39:17  <V453000> yeah was shit
13:39:21  <andythenorth> signals in PIPE are a PITA
13:39:22  <V453000> couldnt see things
13:39:28  <andythenorth> signals should just be markers on the ground
13:39:28  <V453000> have you seen wetrail signals?
13:39:40  <V453000> bad azz
13:39:46  * andythenorth looks
13:39:49  <V453000> not very beautiful but very readable
13:40:38  <andythenorth> diagonal rivers
13:40:43  <andythenorth> oh the humanity :|
13:42:19  <V453000> :)
13:42:57  <andythenorth> pipes should be over-buildable by roads and stuff
13:43:01  <andythenorth> i.e. level crossings
13:43:09  <V453000> hmf
13:43:10  <andythenorth> they are underground
13:43:14  <andythenorth> PIPE forbids it :)
13:43:32  <V453000> forbidding level crossings is one of the top retarded features
13:43:53  * andythenorth forbids V453000
13:43:59  <V453000> :>
13:44:20  <andythenorth> yeah anyway, just signals on the ground?
13:44:22  <V453000> btw AsphaltRails could be amazing
13:44:27  <andythenorth> :(
13:44:29  <V453000> yeah, just short signals
13:44:37  <andythenorth> TarRail
13:44:58  <V453000> single trucks, choice of trailers, creating your own consists, ... :P
13:45:25  <V453000> xcept towns dont grow over that but meh
13:45:36  <V453000> is realistic; civil X cargo roads :P
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14:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> forbidding level crossings is one of the top retarded features <-- well, if you think train "crashing" with a blob of oil a better feature...
14:08:27  <andythenorth> oil is underground
14:08:28  <andythenorth> :D
14:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or a truck being overrun by oil
14:08:53  <Eddi|zuHause> not all pipelines are underground
14:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's underground it's not a "level" crossing
14:09:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: did you try to dm me, or is your client being odd?
14:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i clicked some wrong button somewhen
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14:11:09  <V453000> oh yeah crashes with oil blobs will be the best
14:11:16  <V453000> wait for when oil crashes with alcohol
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16:21:53  <LordAro> http://map.ipviking.com/
16:24:07  <Alberth> hmm, don't they know china -> us should go the other way around ?  :)
16:25:48  <LordAro> wouldn't look as good graphically, i suspect
16:25:57  <LordAro> alternatively, it was more difficult to implement :p
16:26:17  <Alberth> probably :)
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16:55:43  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is that?
16:56:50  <Alberth> a nice looking graphics display
16:59:30  <frosch123> something russia does not participate in
17:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get it
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17:11:56  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it's basically SCHUFA, but for the internet
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17:45:49  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26721 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2014-08-05 17:45:43 UTC)
17:45:50  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:51  <DorpsGek> korean - 3 changes by telk5093
17:45:52  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by
17:48:41  <blathijs> 1/quit brb
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18:07:52  <andythenorth> ok
18:08:18  <andythenorth> so if there is a 400 pax 70mph hovercraft, what is the point of a 1000 pax 25mph ferry?
18:09:19  <andythenorth> the hovercraft will transport more pax per hour
18:09:25  <andythenorth> game over ferry
18:09:37  <andythenorth> power is moot
18:09:42  <andythenorth> infrastructure impact is moot
18:09:47  <andythenorth> running costs are irrelevant
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18:11:26  <Supercheese> Ferry has better cargo_age_period ?
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18:12:04  <Supercheese> hovercraft be noisy and obnoxious
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18:14:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: in case of aircraft the bigger capacity would be way better
18:14:58  <frosch123> ships have the issue that station capacity is unlimited
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18:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why that is the main thing i woul change about ships
18:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> not collision in open water or ocean speed
18:28:21  <Eddi|zuHause> aircraft need holding pattern control (priorities, timetables, interleaving take of and landing)
18:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> *off
18:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and trains need routes...
18:31:29  <andythenorth> it does make ship set design surprisingly hard
18:31:46  <andythenorth> no infrastructure issues
18:31:53  <andythenorth> no concern about power on hills
18:32:16  <andythenorth> I could use cargo-aging to make hovercraft unpleasant, but that kind of balancing rarely works
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18:32:30  <andythenorth> just cripples one vehicle, or makes two equal, therefore pointless
18:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i would just make 3 generations: sail, steam and diesel. a bunch of capacities for each generation that make good multiples.
18:34:13  * Pinkbeast murmurs something about prevailing wind
18:34:32  <andythenorth> I’m down to 5 pax ships for 1870-2000
18:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and multiply all cargo age periods by 4
18:34:49  <andythenorth> I’ve removed 5
18:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> main use case for capacities is to match the capacity of the train for transfer services
18:35:55  <andythenorth> I’ve only got 100 pax, or [large]
18:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> transfers would work better if there was a "wait for non-zero load" option
18:36:00  <andythenorth> yes
18:36:06  <andythenorth> would be good for cdist
18:36:26  <andythenorth> I’m sure you can create one with conditional orders
18:36:29  <andythenorth> have fun with that :P
18:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the ships would toot every few seconds
18:36:58  <andythenorth> what is the objection to % loaded?
18:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and potentially go round in circles
18:37:09  <Eddi|zuHause> too overloaded gui
18:37:38  <andythenorth> valid concern
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18:46:58  <Alberth> hi andy
18:47:19  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
18:48:14  <Alberth> I really like your double and quadruple production in firs, it causes major havoc in my networks :p
18:49:41  <andythenorth> it’s good for goal games
18:49:51  <andythenorth> otherwise it should be 1.5x and 2x
18:49:54  <andythenorth> or 1.5x and 3x
18:50:14  <Eddi|zuHause> or add more steps?
18:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> 1.33, 1.5, 2, 3, 4?
18:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually played with this version of FIRS
18:52:11  <Alberth>  http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Wronfingford_Transport_1958-08-17.png    and I started making these weird coop-like constructs (at the left :p )
18:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> make it so that 4 needs so many supplies that you can't possibly fulfill it for all industries
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18:57:54  <andythenorth> you can always fulfill
18:57:58  <andythenorth> just build more sources
18:58:22  <andythenorth> Alberth: is that to get supplies out or in?
18:59:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if you increase the number of primary industries, you need to deliver more supplies to them
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19:00:39  <Eddi|zuHause> if you need the same number of supplies to go from 1 to 3 as you need from 3 to 4, you might consider building another industry and getting it to 3 instead of increasing the one you have
19:00:45  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on space
19:01:52  <Alberth> clay in, chemicals + supplies out (supplies at the higher station)
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19:02:30  * andythenorth mostly plays basic economies
19:02:40  <andythenorth> basic economies have short cuts for supplies
19:02:42  <andythenorth> build more ports
19:02:53  <andythenorth> it’s more fun imo
19:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly
19:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but if you need to double the number of ports to get from 3 to 4...
19:04:00  <andythenorth> maybe :D
19:04:02  <andythenorth> dunno
19:04:13  <andythenorth> anyway, ships

19:04:24  <Alberth> I haven't played firs enough to know the industries, there are just too many in full firs
19:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe even use 4 as base: 1.33: 4, 1.5: 16, 2: 64, 3: 256, 4: 1024
19:08:37  <andythenorth> hmm
19:08:39  <andythenorth> rosters
19:08:53  * andythenorth is pleased when copy-paste works for maintaining a set
19:08:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i only know roosters
19:09:02  <andythenorth> better than building some big external framework
19:20:07  <andythenorth> so basically paddle steamers -> hovercraft
19:20:10  <andythenorth> seems reasonable to me
19:23:36  <Prof_Frink> Paddle steamers -> hovercraft -> hover steamers.
19:24:45  <andythenorth> nice
19:24:53  <andythenorth> hover paddles
19:25:29  <Taede> sounds like something you can use to play tabletennis from the couch
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19:31:39  <andythenorth> V453000: is train curve speed a thing?
19:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but it's hardcoded and hacked
19:35:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would possibly remove hovercraft completely, and have hydrofoils as the futuristic ship generation
19:35:50  <peter1138> hovercraft aren't futuristic at all
19:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: no, but they are niche
19:36:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and ship mechanics have no space for niches
19:36:31  <andythenorth> you get to choose rosters
19:36:36  <andythenorth> this roster has hovercraft
19:36:42  <andythenorth> some other rosters will have hydrofoils
19:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have sails: 1500-1850, steam: 1850-1950, diesel: 1950-2030, and hydrofoil 2030-...
19:37:07  <Prof_Frink> Ekranoplans in others?
19:37:08  * andythenorth stops trying to make *the* definitive vehicle set
19:37:09  <peter1138> Include all the things
19:37:33  <andythenorth> action 14 params that offer a select, but subscribing to a list
19:37:51  <andythenorth> when a selection is made by one param, the item is popped from the list
19:37:56  <andythenorth> can we do that?
19:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what you mean
19:38:25  <andythenorth> you don’t speak GUI :P
19:39:00  * andythenorth use case
19:39:28  <andythenorth> action 14 params: roster 1 [options], roster 2 [options], roster 3 [options]
19:39:34  <andythenorth> (3 rosters is enough)
19:39:50  <andythenorth> if the options are ‘Brit’, ‘Euro’, ‘USA’ etc
19:40:09  <andythenorth> and I select ‘Brit’ for roster 1, it should no longer be a valid option for roster 2 or 3
19:40:21  <andythenorth> some UI systems handle this by subscribing to a data provider
19:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that cannot be done
19:40:36  <andythenorth> ok
19:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> all action14 info is static
19:41:03  <andythenorth> so either I do something different
19:41:12  <andythenorth> or I let player choose the same roster multiple times
19:41:33  <andythenorth> hang on
19:41:40  <andythenorth> static for newgrf
19:41:46  <andythenorth> static for openttd also?
19:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> both
19:42:02  <andythenorth> ok
19:42:19  <andythenorth> that’s why action 14 changes aren’t picked up until I quit and restart openttd?
19:42:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:42:32  <andythenorth> ok
19:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the info is constructed on game start
19:42:52  <andythenorth> it’s always nice to avoid writing more code
19:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> when scannig for newgrf, action 14 and action8 are read
19:43:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and the md5 is calculated
19:44:28  <andythenorth> thanks
19:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly "rescan_newgrfs" does this as well, but i'm not sure
19:48:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it's possible that people pass parameters that are not selectable by action14
19:52:07  <peter1138> https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8274035200/h4321CE0F/
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19:54:11  <Eddi|zuHause> very unfortunate cut :p
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19:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_-emj1qR4
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19:59:11  <keoz> You guys where definetely right advising to use Mercurial for patching ... I love that.
19:59:19  <andythenorth> ooh
19:59:22  <andythenorth> steam hovercraft
19:59:25  <andythenorth> how quaint
19:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> sail hovercraft!
20:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should make a steampunk ship set
20:00:34  <andythenorth> maybe
20:00:39  <andythenorth> don’t really like steampunk enough
20:00:50  <andythenorth> I went looking for *punk that I liked
20:00:52  <andythenorth> didn’t find any
20:01:26  <andythenorth> this set gets closer and closer to NewShips every time I work on it :P
20:01:35  <andythenorth> likely MB got it right years ago
20:05:04  <frosch123> maybe try to make stuff not right
20:05:16  <frosch123> may make it more interesting
20:06:07  <andythenorth> I leave that to V :)
20:09:46  <NGC3982> peter1138: The tragic thing is that i have managed that accident like five times.
20:09:55  <NGC3982> I despice packaging like that.
20:10:25  <peter1138> yeah it's a pain in the arse
20:10:33  <peter1138> especially if you ever have to take the product back...
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20:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> life was so much easier before 1989. no plastic stuff that was glued to impossibly open
20:19:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "Scheiß Westverpackungen" was a phrase my mother used very very often
20:29:33  <andythenorth> so
20:29:38  <andythenorth> a roster has 20-30 ships
20:29:49  <andythenorth> maybe a fixed amount of 24, but rules get broken
20:29:58  <andythenorth> how many rosters active at once
20:29:59  <andythenorth> 3?
20:30:02  <andythenorth> max
20:30:11  <andythenorth> I’d only use 1
20:30:13  <andythenorth> but I’m special
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20:56:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is a "roster" and why do you need several at the same time?
20:58:06  <andythenorth> I don’t
20:58:10  <andythenorth> I need 1
20:58:22  <andythenorth> players who insist on spamming their buy menu might want more
20:58:33  <andythenorth> roster = sub-set of vehicles
21:12:09  <andythenorth> bye
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21:19:15  <frosch123> night
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