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Log for #openttd on 8th August 2014:
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05:54:12  <Pikkaphone> then who was breakfast?
05:56:03  <V453000> andythenorth IS breakfast
05:57:35  <Pikkaphone> FISH on TOAST
05:58:38  <V453000> yay
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06:37:33  <Pikkaphone> there he goes now
06:39:53  <V453000> eaten quite quickly
06:39:55  <V453000> not worth it
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07:08:56  <Alberth> o/
07:10:42  <V453000> hy
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08:18:36  <TheBix> hey guys what happens if a train wants to reverse in a station but theres no signals?
08:18:56  <TheBix> I mean if they want to drive straight but theres no signals
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08:21:31  <V453000> try and see?
08:22:25  <Xaroth|Work> what can posisbly go wrong? :P
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08:27:00  <Alberth> how is no signals a problem?
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08:40:30  <TheBix> Alberth, if other trains enter the block via path signals, a train which goes straight from a station doesn't check for other trains
08:41:09  <Alberth> how can you have a second train without signals?
08:41:40  <Alberth> or how can a second train want to use the tracks of the first train?
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08:42:39  <Alberth> a train can turn around, and fail to reserve a new path to the exit. At that moment, it stops and continues trying to find a path
08:42:51  <Alberth> when it finds one, it moves again
08:43:11  <Alberth> assuming it is in a block entered with path signals
08:43:35  <Alberth> with block signals there is at most one train in a block, so it can just move
08:44:18  <V453000> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pota-ghat/repository/entry/src/gfx/alpine_nogrid_8bpp.png this is the correct order of landscape sprites when I replace them ?
08:44:35  <V453000> like I can just go 3981, 3982, ... 3999 for temperate?
08:44:48  <V453000> or does anybody know if opengfx uses it shuffled? :D
08:45:58  <Alberth> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/tileh.png     this is the orrder, I think
08:46:30  <Alberth> hmm, should be findable in the opengfx source I guess
08:48:59  <TheBix> Alberth, but what if I tries to go straight. I've heard that trains continuing straight after stopping at a station don't run the algo for path signals
08:49:16  <V453000> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pota-ghat/repository/entry/src/gfx/alpine_nogrid_8bpp.png :d
08:49:17  <V453000> eh
08:49:25  <V453000>  Trac detected an internal error:  MemoryError:
08:49:36  <V453000> got it now
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08:50:34  <V453000> thanks, that helps :)
08:51:52  <Alberth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3583/     doesn't look like it
08:52:02  <Alberth> although you use a different file
08:52:13  <V453000> btw does that order make any sense? :D
08:53:42  <Alberth> yes, if you think in bits :p
08:54:10  <Alberth> corner up/down is a bit
08:54:11  <V453000> -> does not :D
08:54:16  <V453000> right
08:54:33  <V453000> I see
08:54:58  <Alberth> at least for the first 15 or so tiles :p
08:54:59  <V453000> aha that explains the missing 15 XD
08:55:04  <V453000> ye
08:55:11  <Alberth> with steep tiles it gets messy :)
08:56:12  <V453000> so the order in 2981-3999 sprites is : 1-14, 23 27 29 30 ?
08:56:54  <Alberth> TheBix: the station is nothing special for path finding. The train is *always* at a reserved path in a path-signal block.
08:57:08  <Alberth> thus also when it stopped at a station
08:57:31  <Alberth> let me find the opengfx sprite file
08:57:42  <V453000> the thing i pasted is probably from opengfx
08:57:49  <V453000> or ogfx+ I doubt pm changes the template there
08:58:01  <peter1138> 0-14, no?
08:58:22  <V453000> yes sure :D
08:58:22  <TheBix> Alberth, so the end of a station is the same a signal?
08:58:30  <peter1138> TheBix, no.
08:58:32  <Alberth>  http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/grass-temperate.gimp.png
08:58:53  <TheBix> right, so then a station *must* be something special for path finding
08:58:57  <Alberth> TheBix: for the path finding, the station does not exist
08:59:01  <TheBix> since a train would only reserve a path too the station.
08:59:05  <TheBix> and not past it
08:59:07  <Alberth> False
08:59:24  <TheBix> so then a train reseves a path all the way through even when it stops?
08:59:25  <Alberth> it reserves a path to the end of the block
08:59:45  <TheBix> ah, that makes sense
08:59:48  <Alberth> blocks end at a signal, and nowhere else
09:00:43  <V453000> right
09:00:58  <V453000> 29 23 27 30 I think
09:01:04  <V453000> plus 2x 0 at the end? :d
09:01:09  <V453000> guess those arent loaded
09:01:31  <Alberth> TheBix:  so if you have a station in the middle of a block, it reserves a path through the station
09:04:35  <Alberth> V453000:  just copy the ground template :p
09:04:35  <TheBix> Alberth, if I set up a station that can be entered from both ends, the trains sometimes exit on the wrong side when there's traffic on the correct side, how do I fix this?
09:05:55  <V453000> Alberth: I needed to identify which sprites are which firs
09:05:57  <V453000> t
09:06:01  <Alberth> there is no connection back to the right side?  I would expect it to exist or the path finder won't go there
09:06:04  <V453000> with the horrible ogfx shading it wasnt so easy
09:06:16  <V453000> I think I have the order now
09:06:31  <Alberth> the bright alpine sprites help a lot there :)
09:07:07  <Alberth> worst case you have to swap some stuff in the template :)
09:07:49  <V453000> got it now :D
09:08:05  <Alberth> what are you making?
09:08:09  <Alberth> sloped industries?
09:08:47  <V453000> landscape :)
09:09:15  <V453000> sloped industries are wtf for map generation
09:10:27  <Alberth> andy adapted his industry layout for slopes I think
09:11:05  <Alberth> things could be done a lot nicer if openttd could retrieve information about slope requirements of the industry
09:11:44  <Alberth> "cannot build here" gives such little information :)
09:13:36  <V453000> well yeah
09:13:50  <V453000> I think I have enough sprites/file size already so I would keep only flat things :P
09:14:11  <V453000> my models dont quite fit to be separated by hills
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09:16:21  <Alberth> not in any trivial way no  :)
09:17:01  <peter1138> TheBix, if you want a two-way station, you ought to put signals either side of each platform.
09:17:30  <peter1138> Either use block pre-signals for the whole thing, or path signals for the whole thing.
09:18:22  <TheBix> peter1138, wait so I can't put one path signal at the start of the tree?
09:18:29  <Alberth> V453000:  hmm, snowy arctic landscape tiles in /base/base-4404-houses-town-snow.pnml    now why doesn't that strike me as the logical place for those sprites?  :)       It uses the same template though, so the order should be the same
09:18:47  <V453000> :D
09:19:00  <V453000> got it now, just need to re-order and code themz
09:19:02  <V453000> then lets see
09:19:42  <Alberth> TheBix: you can, but a train reserves a path to the signal, and no other train will cross a reserved path
09:20:14  <Alberth> so it's a good way to claim the entire station for one train
09:21:20  <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Basic_two-way_station  may be useful to you
09:34:06  <V453000> replace [<block_name>](<sprite-id>[, <image-file>]) { 	list of realsprites }
09:34:13  <V453000> list of realsprites?
09:34:26  <V453000> and can I put multiple sprite-ids there?
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09:37:15  <V453000> or should I just put one replace and alternative sprite per each sprite I am replacing?
09:37:18  <V453000> gets kind of repetitive :d
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09:50:27  <V453000> breaking news: offsets are hell
09:50:53  <Alberth> they always are :(
09:52:46  <V453000> I so far think I should be dealing only with Y offset
09:52:50  <V453000> hope it is true
09:53:27  * Alberth helps hoping
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11:23:44  <Pokka> TheBix_, if a train has an order to stop at a (drive-through) station, it will reserve an arbitrary path on other side of the station when it enters the block, and then follow that path when it leaves. for drive-through stations, you need to put a signal immediately past the platform (or at least before any junctions) to ensure the train paths correctly when leaving the station.
11:24:31  <Pokka> that's with reversing at end-of-line only, I don't know what happens with pathfinding if you allow reversing in stations.
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11:25:00  <Pikka> wot larks
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11:37:06  <peter1138> Morning.
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11:48:48  <Pikka> bordig
11:50:12  <Pikka> how many V453000s does it take to change a lightbulb?
11:50:58  <V453000> many
11:51:14  <Pikka> that many, eh?
11:51:16  <V453000> esp if the lighbulb is an extra zoom ground sprite
11:56:28  <Pikka> I enjoy those
11:56:51  <V453000> have you rendered any landscape yet pikka?
11:57:00  <Pikka> a little
11:57:16  <V453000> got some tile template already?
11:58:06  <Pikka> more or less... I've put it aside for now though
11:58:49  <Pikka> for newgrfs, I'm just going to pull the basic groundsprites from the base set.. that way it'll look "nice" with zbase, or yours, or whatever.
11:59:05  <V453000> hmm
11:59:18  <V453000> I kind of want to have 100% precise template
11:59:19  <V453000> anyway
11:59:20  <V453000> gtg
11:59:21  <V453000> laterz
11:59:29  <Pikka> bai
11:59:53  <Pikka> I don't think mine is at all 100% precise, btw :D
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12:02:23  <peter1138> Make it 102% precise.
12:02:50  <Pikka> at least
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12:23:24  <V453000> am back :D
12:23:36  <V453000> I tried to create some mask in photoshop
12:23:42  <V453000> but it is total pain to have it 100% precise
12:24:07  <peter1138> # I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
12:24:10  <V453000> but if I want to cut tracks/roads/base tiles/everything with it I guess I kind of need it
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12:42:15  <V453000> ha and I think I just found a mistake XD
12:42:17  <V453000> great
12:43:58  <Pikka> V453000, hit it with a hammer until it fits
12:44:02  <Pikka> bugger 100% precise
12:44:11  <V453000> idk
12:44:16  <V453000> semi-defeated now :D
12:45:29  <V453000> am considering something like starting from no-zoom slopes
12:45:42  <V453000> that would probably make a lot of sense
12:46:37  <peter1138> put 4x4 normal-zoom sprites together...
12:48:24  <V453000> that is not as easy as you may think
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12:50:17  <andythenorth> o/
12:53:14  <V453000> hi breakfast
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13:18:49  <V453000> aha opengfx doesnt fit together either XD
13:18:54  <V453000> xcellent
13:24:43  <ATS63> Heh... this Australia scenario I'm modifying is becoming pretty cool.
13:25:26  <ATS63> The british concept of roads, and having bends all over the place is stupid. And well, cause OpenTTD isn't even a good representation of reality, I made all the cities 3x3 grid roads
13:25:44  <ATS63> If only the australian government did that over 100 years ago
13:26:17  <andythenorth> OpenTTD’s representation of reality is truly shocking
13:26:19  <andythenorth> I am appalled
13:26:33  <ATS63> Time is the best one. kph? Should be kpd
13:27:26  <ATS63> I wonder what kind of "Passenger" will wait at a train station for several months in any year higher than 2000
13:27:42  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
13:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a "k" then?
13:27:58  <peter1138> kilopixels?
13:27:58  <ATS63> kilometres
13:28:05  <Xaroth|Work> kibipixels
13:28:20  <andythenorth> koalapixels
13:28:34  <ATS63> heh
13:28:38  <ATS63> koalapixels per hour
13:28:47  * andythenorth -> back to deleting stuff
13:28:48  <andythenorth> bye
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13:30:13  <ATS63> This australia scenario exposes some...
13:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> a vehicle running 128km/h-ish moves one step per tick, so sqrt(5) pixels per 33.33... ms.
13:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> lets assume 96dpi
13:30:48  <V453000> :d
13:30:55  <ATS63> So there are 2 oil refineries in au? Melb and newcastle or something. 1024x1024 map, hell even 512x512, oil wells in NT or WA are well outside reach
13:31:05  <ATS63> For an oil ship
13:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(5)/(33/1000/3600)/96/2.54/100
13:31:50  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 10.0038832207
13:32:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so a vehicle travelling 128-km/h-ish in-game actually travels 10km/h
13:33:21  <ATS63> per tick..
13:33:27  <ATS63> I'm assuming that isn't a second
13:33:38  <ATS63> but something far greater, like an hour
13:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> 33/1000/3600 is the tick->hour conversion
13:34:14  <ATS63> Ahh, k
13:34:42  <ATS63> Damn. That is slow. I can run that fast :/
13:35:04  <ATS63> Except for my dangerously obesity. That slows me down.
13:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> not over an hour :)
13:35:18  <Eddi|zuHause> except maybe if you like marathons
13:35:31  <ATS63> Yea umm...
13:35:41  <ATS63> I did north face 100... 120km run in a day.
13:37:04  <ATS63> Nice to know I'm faster than OpenTTD vehicles
13:37:25  <ATS63> At worst, on a bicycle
13:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> not if you lower the resolution :)
13:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> or zoom in :)
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14:37:41  <V453000> sooo
14:37:43  <V453000> jinks:
14:37:49  <V453000> eh
14:37:51  <V453000> wrong channel
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14:55:34  <Pikka> doesn't it
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16:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> WE ARE ALL CATTLE!
16:22:08  <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9NhhnnWoTQ
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16:30:57  <ATS65> Am I supposed to be mooooved?
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18:41:35  <Wolf01> hi hi
18:44:22  <andythenorth> o/
18:44:46  <Alberth> \o
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18:48:28  <Pikka> hm
18:49:40  <Wolf01> yes
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18:51:03  <Wolf01> my stupid usb zyxel wifi dongle doesn't want to be used as an access point
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18:52:04  <andythenorth> lo pikka bob
18:52:15  <Pikka> lo andybob
18:52:19  <Pikka> what's gnu?
18:53:23  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6386/squid_brit.png
18:53:28  <andythenorth> less
18:53:34  <andythenorth> that’s the Blighty roster
18:53:43  <andythenorth> I wish someone would fix the sprites :P
18:53:49  <andythenorth> but there is no santa claus
18:53:54  <Pikka> such blighty
18:54:06  <Pikka> but a boat is a boat, isn't it? how do you
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18:54:19  <andythenorth> well I just do
18:54:28  <Wolf01> what about adding the ss great eastern to that set?
18:54:31  <andythenorth> I don’t know, it comes naturally
18:54:50  <Pikka> isn't the oztralian or wherever roster going to be 90% the same?
18:55:05  <andythenorth> Pikka: well yes maybes
18:55:16  <andythenorth> do first, regret alter
18:55:17  <andythenorth> later *
18:55:30  <Pikka> also
18:55:38  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Great_Britain
18:55:38  <Pikka> blighty is "realism" or something
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18:55:56  <andythenorth> Pikka: only if all ships in UK are 70mph hovercraft after 1968 :D
18:56:04  <Wolf01> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Great_Eastern
18:57:56  <andythenorth> it’s a big old beast
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18:58:42  <andythenorth> Pikka: maybe an australia roster is not a thing :)
18:58:57  <andythenorth> it would probably have super-zippy austral cats
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18:59:02  <andythenorth> and some convict ships :P
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19:06:05  <andythenorth> http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/itemimages/156/995/156995_large.jpg
19:06:25  <andythenorth> funny looking QLD ferries? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/North_Stradbroke_Island_Vehicle_Barges.jpg
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19:30:36  <Pikka> are they funny looking?
19:31:15  <andythenorth> the blue one is
19:31:30  <andythenorth> this is a good site http://uglyships.wordpress.com
19:33:40  <Pikka> jakken is pretty good
19:33:43  <Pikka> you should do that one
19:34:46  <andythenorth> tempted
19:35:01  <andythenorth> apparently it fits under a 14.99m length
19:35:05  <andythenorth> so it is license exempt
19:35:06  <Pikka> yes
19:35:37  * Pikka would be tempted to make a ship that's just less than 14.99m wide
19:35:43  <Pikka> and then claim it moves sideways
19:36:43  <andythenorth> http://www.offshoreenergytoday.com/pgs-new-ship-takes-seismic-acquisition-to-a-new-level/
19:37:04  <Wolf01> I'm tempted to convert to steampunk the game I'm writing
19:37:50  <andythenorth> steampunk is a bit odd
19:37:54  <andythenorth> it never clicks for me
19:38:15  <andythenorth> kind of cool
19:38:20  <andythenorth> but not quite
19:40:24  <Wolf01> as now it's set at our days
19:40:56  <Wolf01> but I'm a bit limited by the environment
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20:03:17  <andythenorth> hmm
20:03:26  <andythenorth> I want a set, but with order (python)
20:03:30  <andythenorth> that is a tricky ask
20:07:33  <andythenorth> so
20:07:46  <andythenorth> ships, max sensible capacity (tankers, general cargo)?
20:08:06  <andythenorth> currently 1.2m litres or 1200t
20:08:15  * andythenorth thinks a bit bigger
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20:42:25  <iCookRice> yep
20:42:45  <iCookRice> hello everyone
20:44:19  <iCookRice> i am trying to load a height map on a dedicated server, have already tried using a newheightmapgame patch, which patched in and compiled, but does not successfully work
20:44:25  <iCookRice> i crash when trying to execute the command
20:47:13  <frosch123> just create a save with a gui client, and transfer it to the server
20:47:33  <frosch123> imo that is the easiest way for all cases
20:48:27  <iCookRice> which is what i thought of doing, but that would mean that my industries and towns are the same at every game creation?
20:49:34  <frosch123> yes, just like the heights :)
20:52:55  <iCookRice> okay, so if i do that, how can i make towns in my scenario spawn in the 2x2 grid setting
20:54:12  <iCookRice> also, what is the flattest i can get a map with opened.cfg? i do not see a flatness setting like on a gui new game creation
20:54:19  <iCookRice> am i just missing something obvious?
20:55:55  <frosch123> you can use the scenario editor or a height map
20:56:03  <frosch123> the terrain generator is meant to generate terrain
20:56:09  <frosch123> a flat map is no terrain
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20:56:47  <iCookRice> how does that relate to the .cfg though
20:57:06  <iCookRice> in .cfg, i have options for 0 (original) or 1 (TGP)
20:57:17  <frosch123> no idea, it kind of confuses me that you want to randomise towns and industries, but not terrain :)
20:58:23  <iCookRice> i just like having as flat as a map as possible
20:58:36  <iCookRice> but varying industries gives me something different each game
20:58:50  <iCookRice> is there a way to get a flatter map in the .cfg?
20:58:58  <frosch123> no
20:58:59  <iCookRice> patching and whatnot is just too much work
20:59:22  <frosch123> maybe you disabled realistic acceleration or so
20:59:23  <iCookRice> so how does the "flatness" option in the guy new game cross over to the command line?
20:59:33  <iCookRice> realistic acceleration is on
20:59:38  <frosch123> i wouldn't know why anyone would want to play on a flat map, except when using original acceleration
20:59:42  <iCookRice> it's more about building layout
20:59:55  <iCookRice> and not having to level everything manually when i want to build huge depots
21:00:15  <frosch123> anyway, create the cfg with a gui client, and transfer it
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21:26:16  <b_jonas> I like to level everything, but I like that to be a challenge so I don't play on very flat maps (I don't play on very hilly maps either though)
21:26:34  <b_jonas> and I can't just level everything because sometimes the stations are on a very different height
21:26:37  <b_jonas> um
21:26:39  <b_jonas> I mean the industries
21:27:06  <b_jonas> like, the forest is high up in the mountains and the sawmill on the plains six levels belo
21:27:23  <b_jonas> I can place the stations a bit closer in height, but there's still some difference in height the train has to climb
21:27:35  <b_jonas> luckily for wood it typically has to go downwards, not up
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22:08:03  <__ln__> how does one measure sunlight in inches?
22:08:38  <frosch123> like you measure rain
22:08:50  <frosch123> just take the height of the photon pile on the ground
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22:11:26  <__ln__> inch is a unit of how long it is until sunset. but how?
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22:12:06  <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:13:48  <frosch123> night
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22:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause>  <andythenorth> I want a set, but with order (python) <-- i'd probably start with typing "ordered set python" into google and see what comes out. there's bound to be an existing library for that somewhere
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23:02:26  <Jinassi> anyone have any idea if scenarios from ttd are still under copyright?
23:02:49  <Jinassi> or, if they even fall under that category
23:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:06:01  <Eddi|zuHause> they definitely do
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23:06:23  <Jinassi> oh dear, then it's the same as origigi graphics
23:06:29  <Jinassi> thank you
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