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Log for #openttd on 22nd August 2014:
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09:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hm weird. i set up a raid in bios, but it won't show up in linux
09:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the bios seems to have a 2TB bug
09:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i tried to flash the bios, but it says "bios id error", indicating i downloaded the wrong model... but i triple checked...
09:19:12  <peter1138> so it's just a software raid then
09:19:43  <peter1138> use md raid
09:19:50  <V453000> why woyuld you setup a raid boss
09:20:30  <planetmaker> for the drops, obviously
09:20:34  <TinoDidriksen> Hardware RAID is dangerous. Unless you have several of the exact same card laying around for when it fries, just use software RAID.
09:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> internet says it's better when you want to access it from windows
09:21:04  <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: it's not an actual hardware raid
09:21:23  <peter1138> then you just answered your own question :p
09:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that was not the question...
09:21:49  <peter1138> well it wasn't even a question
09:22:15  <peter1138> linux mostly does not bother supporting fakeraid
09:22:18  <V453000> probably some high lvl pwnzor raid
09:22:31  <__ln__> http://yle.fi/uutiset/supermarket_website_crashes_as_finns_clamour_for_putins_butter/7426761
09:22:56  <peter1138> TinoDidriksen, raid1 should, in theory, be relatively safe. but you never know.
09:23:04  <Eddi|zuHause> well i found https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FakeRaidHowto but that is incomprehensive...
09:23:44  <TinoDidriksen> peter1138, it's not, because the metadata is in the card version's own special format. Been there, tried that, cursed a lot, went software.
09:25:30  <peter1138> if the card is sensible it will place the metadata at the end of the disk, but that's probably too much to ask
09:25:48  <peter1138> but still the data should be intact even if you can't directly boot it or whatever
09:25:59  <peter1138> which is sometimes easier than restoring from backup
09:26:23  * peter1138 has some hw raid6 cards lying around...
09:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> what does raid6 do anyway?
09:27:59  <peter1138> makes it all more complex
09:28:23  <peter1138> and in theory gives you more redundancy than raid5
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09:30:53  <__ln__> why only in theory?
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09:35:10  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: tried ZFS?
09:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: for what?
09:35:35  <Xaroth|Work> instead of hardware raid
09:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
09:35:51  <Xaroth|Work> because it's.. somewhat better than hardware raid
09:36:15  <Xaroth|Work> and doesn't have some of the pitfalls that hardware raid has
09:36:47  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
09:37:19  <Xaroth|Work> (like having to use dodgy raid cards with their own dodgy format of storing metadata that isn't compatible with other brand dodgy cards)
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09:54:17  <Eddi|zuHause>  so now things are different kind of weird... i made a software raid, and it's now saying "activating md even if degraded" or something
10:00:14  <peter1138> Xaroth|Work, zfs supports different raid levels by itself?
10:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "You can safely ignore the message"
10:02:22  <Xaroth|Work> peter1138: in what way do you mean exactly?
10:02:33  <peter1138> err...
10:02:36  <peter1138> built in to zfs
10:02:42  <peter1138> rather than say, using mdraid like normal people do
10:02:52  <Xaroth|Work> it does 1, 0, 5(z), 6(z2)
10:02:59  <peter1138> sounds terrible
10:03:24  <peter1138> also oracle
10:03:28  <Xaroth|Work> it's not just a raid-like system, it's also a volume manager
10:03:43  <peter1138> ...
10:04:02  <peter1138> i prefer my file systems to be file systems, my volume managers to be volume managers, and my software raid to be software raid.
10:04:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which brings us back to the question... why?
10:04:20  <peter1138> why what?
10:04:32  <Xaroth|Work> peter1138: if you have 3 split systems, one is not fully aware of the other
10:04:37  <Eddi|zuHause> use zfs
10:05:14  <peter1138> i don't think i've ever needed them to be
10:05:42  <Xaroth|Work> so when your raid array has silent corruption, and figures it out
10:05:52  <Xaroth|Work> how does the rest know what has suffered bitrot?
10:06:12  <peter1138> if zfs is handling volumes and raid, then where do you put swap? on a file? heh
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10:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i finally need to install grub on my ssd... that never worked...
10:09:28  <peter1138> never had any problem with that, though i'm on a bios system
10:09:32  <Xaroth|Work> peter1138: https://wiki.freebsd.org/RootOnZFS#ZFS_Swap_Volume
10:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: whenever i tried to put grub on a new disk, it made things ever worse...
10:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> like using the wrong drive order
10:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> or getting into an endless restart loop
10:10:26  <peter1138> zfs sounds horrible, i'm glad i don't use it
10:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and let's not speak of grub2 :/
10:10:49  <Xaroth|Work> so you see 2 things on something, and you call it horrible? that's a well educated oppinion right there
10:12:45  <Xaroth|Work> I'd advise to go read the features of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
10:13:05  <peter1138> i see the bit about it not being in linux
10:13:13  <Xaroth|Work> ...
10:13:19  <Xaroth|Work> http://zfsonlinux.org/
10:13:28  <peter1138> if it's not in debian i don't give a shit :)
10:13:32  <Xaroth|Work> ...
10:13:33  <Xaroth|Work> http://zfsonlinux.org/
10:13:40  <Xaroth|Work> seriously, do you even google?
10:13:46  <^Spike^> ieuw.... zfs.....
10:13:47  <peter1138> packages FOR debian is not IN debian
10:14:11  <^Spike^> sorry bad experiences... :)
10:14:16  <peter1138> plus oracle
10:14:20  <^Spike^> better say way too much bad experiences :)
10:14:22  <^Spike^> said*
10:14:24  <peter1138> will not touch with a giant bargepole
10:15:02  <Xaroth|Work> ^Spike^: what kind of issues?
10:15:12  <Xaroth|Work> i've been fiddling around with it for a while and everything's been running just fine
10:15:14  <^Spike^> stuff with large disk sets
10:15:19  <^Spike^> stuff with raid controllers
10:15:28  <Xaroth|Work> raid controllers for a software raid system?
10:15:32  <^Spike^> stuff with it being f***** slow on freebsd with lots of snapshots
10:15:46  <^Spike^> stuff with it killing a production server bi-weekly atm
10:16:42  <Xaroth|Work> lots of snapshots being how many?
10:16:47  <^Spike^> in the end... zfs is A file system and not THE filesystem
10:17:00  <^Spike^> 400+ subvolumes with each i think 8-10 snapshots
10:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so, why does the software raid consume like 20% cpu and constant disk accesses, even though nothing is actually accessing the disk?
10:17:32  <^Spike^> because software raid.....
10:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but... what is it doing?
10:18:00  <^Spike^> if i knew... ottdc server would be optimized already :)
10:18:37  <^Spike^> lots of disk actions from sw raid
10:18:42  <^Spike^> reason: unknown
10:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> also, why does google open in a noscript-y browser consume so much cpu?
10:18:52  <^Spike^> cause we don't constantly try to fill disk/clean disk... :)
10:19:02  <^Spike^> because... google!?
10:19:44  <Xaroth|Work> ^Spike^: so you cram it full of crap (400+ subvols), and then you claim it's full of crap? yeh, I see how that's ZFS' issue :P
10:20:06  <^Spike^> it's said it could handle it... :)
10:20:20  <^Spike^> it's called user separation when you offer a service... ;)
10:20:23  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, probably synchronizing, maybe.
10:20:24  <^Spike^> and quota management :)
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10:20:48  <^Spike^> we are switching over to get rid of the crappy sub volume stuff.... cause software understands quotas in ldap now...
10:20:55  <Xaroth|Work> ^Spike^: ever seen what happens if you create 200+ ext4 volumes to a system? I'm somewhat amazed that it actually has some performance with 400 :P
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10:21:24  <^Spike^> ehm... considering the storage backend @ work.... + proper lvm....
10:21:31  <^Spike^> i think it would come quite far :)
10:24:20  <^Spike^> although lvm overhead could be killing it in one way... but with a proper hw raid controller it should work quite well
10:24:31  <Xaroth|Work> ^Spike^: side question; how much ram and what features were enabled?
10:25:07  <^Spike^> almost no features as far as i remember and about 16G ram
10:25:20  <^Spike^> and about 100T storage space
10:25:29  <Xaroth|Work> 16g on 100t? that's a bit low tbh
10:26:00  <Xaroth|Work> should work, but if your arc isn't tuned then it might cause issues
10:26:03  <^Spike^> i already noticed zfs does too much in ram when we were calculating deduplication vs ram needed
10:26:34  <Xaroth|Work> yeh, but that's just how (and why) ZFS works
10:26:38  <Xaroth|Work> RAM ALL the things :P
10:26:57  <^Spike^> it was better to buy a new EMC with more features... then buy an enterprise server for that price....
10:27:30  <Xaroth|Work> that somewhat depends on what kind of hardware you're running it on
10:27:58  <Xaroth|Work> i mean, 100T on big disks, add a few SSDs for L2arc and a ZIL and you'll still be at half the cost of an enterprise storage device
10:28:13  <Xaroth|Work> because they all want the 'enterprise' 15k sas drives
10:29:18  <^Spike^> hmmm will keep that in mind... :)
10:29:32  <^Spike^> doesn't mean we might still change things... but we are working with the current platform... and still don't like zfs :)
10:29:45  <Xaroth|Work> and I don't like paying 600 euro for 1TB of space, if I can get 12TB of space AND a SSD for L2arc/zil at the same price :P
10:31:50  <^Spike^> as said it's a filesystem and not the filesystem :)
10:32:32  <Xaroth|Work> that is true
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10:45:05  <SpComb> ZFS has a lot to offer in terms of management for large disk systems
10:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, there see,s to be a process called "ext4lazyinit" running that consumes i/o
10:45:38  <SpComb> like I'm not really sure I'd want to mdraid/lvm/ext4/rsync some box with two dsik shelves and 127 disks
10:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> s/,/m/
10:46:10  <SpComb> whereas with ZFS it's not really any more difficult than a box with 2 disks
10:46:56  <SpComb> it's not like LVM is perfect either..
10:47:17  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: are you going to be dual-booting between windows and linux and want the same raid on both?
10:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: when i now formatted it ext4, probably not...
10:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i really wished windows could just read all the linux file systems :/
10:49:38  <SpComb> I think I've mostly given up on dual-booting these days
10:49:46  <SpComb> laptop is just Ubuntu, with Windows in a VM inside
10:49:57  <SpComb> desktop is still dual-boot but I haven't booted it into Ubuntu for a while
10:50:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i've tried windows VM
10:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but kvm/qemu somehow uses 30% cpu when idle
10:50:39  <SpComb> kvm/qemu graphics imo kinda sucks, VirtualBox seems to just work better for desktop stuff
10:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> how long is this ext4lazyinit going to run?
10:50:59  <SpComb> but yeah, the Windows 8.1 inside likes to peg the cpu once in a while
10:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i only have XP to play with
10:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause> most stuff i do in wine, but some things just don't work
10:51:34  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: never encountered ext4lazyinit before
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11:02:54  <peter1138> Hmm, I don't think it should be sticking around, unless it's waiting for something else to finish, maybe.
11:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: apparently it's some process that zeros stuff that was left out from formatting
11:03:16  <^Spike^> Xaroth|Work: what helps in the end (special in the environment i work in) with EMC for example if it breaks they come by to fix it... if shit hits the fan really hard... they come to help out :)
11:03:56  <^Spike^> with zfs if it breaks... you're on your own basicly (and a community perhaps) as far as i've seen
11:04:12  <^Spike^> and telling that to customer when you got 2k VMs offline... doesn't go to well i can tell you :)
11:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> man, mount.ntfs is some inefficient shit...
11:06:24  <SpComb> ^Spike^: that's normal... if you have the money, you should concentrate on the actual product and not the infrastructure around it... outsource that part
11:06:36  <^Spike^> true :)
11:07:05  <^Spike^> it also depends on what you use it for in the end
11:07:15  <^Spike^> in this case running clusters of VMs
11:07:45  <^Spike^> for something easier/simpler it might be enough to kick 3 boxes into a DC put for example gluster on it and hf
11:08:11  <Xaroth_> ^Spike^: there's always Nexenta
11:08:21  <Xaroth_> they are some of the core contributors for the BSD branches
11:08:27  <Xaroth_> and they procide extra crap like replication
11:08:34  <Xaroth_> which isn't in 'normal' zfs
11:08:35  <^Spike^> trying to think.. cause i recognize the name.... but i think we kicked that out aswell
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11:10:07  <^Spike^> yup deleted device...
11:22:49  <SpComb> oh, so someone does actually do zfs live replication?
11:23:26  <SpComb> my stack is ganeti, so something like lvm/ext4/drbd/rsync... it would be nice if ZFS really did all of that... and then someone implemented support for it in ganeti :)
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11:53:35  <Xaroth|Work> SpComb: Nexenta apparently does it
11:53:45  <Xaroth|Work> but that's their enterprise edition
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12:18:38  <kostiak> hey
12:19:49  <kostiak> anyone around here?
12:22:01  * planetmaker doesn't see anyone
12:22:16  <kostiak> I'm having a bit of a problem
12:22:41  <kostiak> I'm reading that trains are supposed to be availble as early as 1925 in temperate
12:23:03  <kostiak> yet in 1940 the railway constuction option is still greyed out
12:23:42  <planetmaker> that depends on climate. And if you play with NewGRFs
12:24:01  <kostiak> temperate, no newgrfs
12:24:29  <kostiak> kirby engine is supposed to be available since 1925
12:24:46  <kostiak> yet in 1940 no railway constuction option
12:25:00  <planetmaker> got a savegame for me?
12:25:08  <kostiak> sure, sec
12:25:13  <kostiak> where should i upload it?
12:25:23  <planetmaker> wherever. Dropbox maybe?
12:26:55  <kostiak> there you go: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5a4IlyyK-bVd1pQQVdpdExlMVU/edit?usp=sharing
12:27:59  <planetmaker> that's arctic climate
12:28:11  <kostiak> wth
12:28:32  <planetmaker> earliest train: 1945
12:28:48  <kostiak> well I'm stupid (as always)
12:28:56  <kostiak> i was 100% sure i picked temperate
12:29:03  <kostiak> thanks anyways mate
12:29:08  <planetmaker> you're welcome
12:30:32  <planetmaker> btw, you see the climate even before you load the save. The saveload dialogue tells you the climate, date and some other stuff about the save
12:30:55  <planetmaker> and you see it from the colour of the grass when you loaded it. But that, of course, needs some knowledge how stuff looks like :)
12:31:19  <kostiak> tbh, haven't played in like a year
12:31:24  <kostiak> and forgot all this stuff :)
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13:31:03  <__ln__> http://asunnot.oikotie.fi/myytavat-asunnot/6496195
13:32:29  <planetmaker> why do you sell it, __ln__ ? :D
13:33:52  <SpComb> __ln__: you just need to pay a 50000€ deposit into an unnamed nigerian bank account to clear legal issues before your payment can be processed?
13:45:10  <^Spike^> they usually also offer to send pictures of their wife for some reason with those mails...
13:45:34  <^Spike^> and tell how you could really help her out
13:45:56  <V453000> what I want pictures of their wife
13:45:58  <V453000> now
13:47:56  <^Spike^> .... i shall forward one of the mails when i have stand-by next time and need to keep an eye on the abuse mailbox :)
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14:20:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ext4lazyinit still running :/
14:27:40  <^Spike^> kill it all.......... ;)
14:27:44  <^Spike^> it's just a friday afternoon.. ;)
14:27:47  <^Spike^> nobody will notice :D
14:28:52  <^Spike^> hmmm lazy init should be gradual without impact... technically...
14:29:00  <^Spike^> lazy zeroing should do that normally atleast
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14:48:10  <DanMacK> Hey All
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15:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.2
15:23:56  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.12
15:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.8
15:24:01  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.48
15:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.8*.75
15:24:18  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.36
15:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.8*.7
15:24:22  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.336
15:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.8*.69
15:24:27  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.3312
15:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.8*.68
15:24:32  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.3264
15:24:47  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.76*.75
15:24:47  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.342
15:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.76*.70
15:24:52  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.3192
15:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.76*.73
15:24:55  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.33288
15:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc .6*.76*.72
15:24:59  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.32832
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15:33:31  <keoz> toying out Eddi|zuHause ? :)
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16:04:03  <SpComb> such spam
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17:12:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26753 /trunk/src (saveload/station_sl.cpp station_base.h) (2014-08-22 17:11:59 UTC)
17:12:07  <DorpsGek> -Fix: desync due to not always properly restoring game state from the savegame
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17:36:37  <frosch123> LSky`: your desync log files were useful :)
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17:39:02  <Wolf01> hi hi
17:45:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26754 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2014-08-22 17:45:28 UTC)
17:45:36  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37  <DorpsGek> catalan - 9 changes by juanjo
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17:47:19  <Wolf01> o/
17:47:26  <Alberth> moin
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18:32:47  <Alberth> evenink
18:32:57  <andythenorth> o/
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18:37:39  <andythenorth> Alberth: any ideas how to run a python 3 nml in a python 2 compile?
18:38:18  <andythenorth> I’ve been relying on the coincidental fact that my scripts and nml both work with 2.6/2.7
18:38:21  <Alberth> if you run it as a separate process, how is it a problem?
18:38:37  <andythenorth> how will I teach nml to use python 3?
18:39:15  <andythenorth> I don’t want to modify the shebangs, that’s not good
18:39:15  <Alberth> #! /usr/bin/env python3    <-- by the first line in nmlc
18:39:33  <Alberth> python3 nmlc .....
18:40:12  <andythenorth> hmm
18:40:14  <Alberth> but current nml2 has the above #!
18:40:17  <andythenorth> that’s interesting
18:40:21  <Alberth> *nml
18:40:27  * andythenorth tries something again
18:41:12  * Alberth bets it give the same result
18:41:16  <andythenorth> ah
18:41:19  <Alberth> *gives
18:41:38  <andythenorth> so either I change the shebang or alias python 3
18:41:42  <andythenorth> I’d misunderstood an error
18:42:41  <Alberth> I lost you, but that's probably fine :)
18:43:37  <Alberth> I tried to update the fish translation yesterday, and got stuck on the roster thingie iirc
18:43:51  <andythenorth> my python isn’t in /usr/bin/env so I need to alias from there
18:44:54  <Alberth> /usr/bin/env is a program
18:45:34  <andythenorth> so it is :o
18:45:34  <Alberth> as parameter you give it the program you look for, and it returns the path to it, iirc
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18:46:01  <andythenorth> I see
18:46:10  <andythenorth> so it knows about python3.3 but not python 3
18:46:23  <Alberth> silly mac?  :)
18:46:23  <andythenorth> so I was going to symlink (alias) python3.3 to python 3
18:48:15  <Alberth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedule_%28workplace%29   <-- this is what you mean with "roster" in fish?
18:48:33  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't the package installer do that automatically?
18:48:59  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you expect sane package installers at a mac box?
18:49:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
18:49:19  <andythenorth> we don’t use the package installers for python
18:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> hope dies last.
18:49:23  <andythenorth> they’re all fucked for OS X
18:49:32  <andythenorth> we use python buildout, it’s reliable
18:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> > dir $(which python3)
18:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9  6. Aug 23:39 /usr/bin/python3 -> python3.3
18:50:57  <Alberth> I'd do that in ~/bin
18:51:20  <andythenorth> make test should pass with nml tip and python3.3?
18:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if you do things manually, do them either in
18:51:28  <Eddi|zuHause> ~/bin or /usr/local/bin
18:52:02  <andythenorth> I have r2200
18:52:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood the name "usr" anyway... certainly doesn't have anything to do with "user"
18:53:06  <Alberth> (20:51:20) andythenorth: make test should pass with nml tip and python3.3?  <-- I just checked, it does
18:53:35  <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3651/
18:53:53  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  / is single user mode, /usr is mounted in multi-user mode, ie normal operation
18:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that makes absolutely no sense
18:55:40  <Alberth> they are run states of the OS, probably hysteric rasins made /usr and it stuck around, as these things do
18:56:06  <andythenorth> hmm
18:56:14  <andythenorth> 0.3.1 also fails
18:56:19  <andythenorth> but looks like missing PIL
18:56:20  <Alberth> andythenorth: no nml/tokens.py?  (it's 9333 bytes here)
18:57:30  <andythenorth> 9333 bytes here too
18:57:51  <Alberth> python3  ;  from ply import lex
18:58:16  <andythenorth> no ply
18:58:19  <andythenorth> and no PIL
18:58:24  <andythenorth> I’ll sort the deps out first
18:58:30  * andythenorth has to read how to make a virtualenv
18:58:35  <andythenorth> again
18:59:00  <Alberth> pillow, actually, I don't think there is a real PIL for python3
18:59:08  <andythenorth> yeah I’ll get pillow
18:59:09  <Alberth> make a few notes today :p
18:59:58  <andythenorth> first I have to get virtualenv for python3
19:00:35  <andythenorth> which means I need pip for python3
19:00:42  <andythenorth> which means I need distribute for python3
19:01:36  <andythenorth> or setuptools
19:01:38  <andythenorth> or something
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19:02:53  <andythenorth> https://pip.pypa.io/en/latest/installing.html
19:03:02  <andythenorth> I’m posting here in case it’s some kind of use in future :P
19:03:36  <Alberth> the Internet is of course the ideal place to store such personal notes :p
19:04:18  <andythenorth> hth do I get pip to run under python3
19:04:29  <andythenorth> I don’t want to change my system python just for this
19:04:34  * andythenorth *hates* python packaging
19:04:38  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, just name your backup "Lost.all.seasons" and put it in a torrent. free distributed backup :p
19:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is a pip3 of course
19:07:36  <andythenorth> yay
19:07:38  <andythenorth> got it
19:08:19  *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:11:00  <andythenorth> and that is how we do it
19:11:18  * andythenorth should probably document that for other poor OS X users
19:12:00  <andythenorth> or I coud draw a boat :(
19:12:35  <Alberth> instead of getting an OS that can do these things, you manage your packages manually
19:12:53  <Alberth> and you pay big bucks to get to do it as well
19:13:24  <andythenorth> no comment :P
19:13:37  <Alberth> wise decision :p
19:14:03  <andythenorth> I work with linux devs who think it’s normal to recompile the kernel to try and fix a crashing wifi driver
19:14:17  <andythenorth> or who only have VGA support on their DVI-out laptop :P
19:14:30  <Alberth> right :p
19:14:37  <andythenorth> we all have our curses to bear
19:14:50  <Alberth> I did such things when I was young :)
19:15:30  <andythenorth> there’s nothing stopping one of us (OS X users) writing a decent package manager
19:15:37  <andythenorth> we just prefer to whine about it seems
19:16:27  <andythenorth> 32 nml tests passed
19:16:30  <Alberth> much easier borrow one from linuces
19:16:39  <Rubidium> andythenorth: isn't the OS X package manager called iTunes?
19:16:48  <andythenorth> App Store now :P
19:17:04  <andythenorth> Alberth: I think they started out by copying BSD Ports Tree, might have been a bad place
19:17:13  <Alberth> ieks!
19:17:30  <andythenorth> updating a simple package can lead to a recursive port update that takes hours and leaves gcc tying up the cpu
19:17:38  <andythenorth> I guess that’s how a depgraph works though :P
19:17:55  <Alberth> obviously compiling all programs yourself is very useful :p
19:18:20  <andythenorth> anyway, what was I actually doing?
19:18:21  <andythenorth> smoke?
19:18:40  <Alberth> trying to run nml with pythno3 in something python2
19:18:55  <andythenorth> oh that yes
19:19:01  <andythenorth> let’s see if I broke my compiles
19:19:06  <Alberth> as well as trying to answer my roster question, if you have seen it
19:19:37  <andythenorth> FISH compile works, and the deprecation messages about PIL tostring() stuff have gone
19:19:44  <andythenorth> win
19:19:49  <Alberth> \o/
19:19:49  <andythenorth> what’s the roster question?
19:20:10  <Alberth> (20:48:15) Alberth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedule_%28workplace%29   <-- this is what you mean with "roster" in fish?
19:20:20  <Alberth> I don't understand what "roster" is
19:20:40  <Alberth> for translating to dutch
19:21:11  <Taede> roster: selection of vehicles available (for instance, dutch ships, british ships)
19:21:24  <Taede> not unlike industry set selection in firs?
19:21:28  <andythenorth> more like http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/modelListRR.aspx?id=CSX
19:21:38  <andythenorth> yes similar to FIRS economy
19:21:55  <andythenorth> same concept in Iron Horse and Road Hog
19:21:58  <Alberth> This Sceptered Isle  /  The Blue Danube    refer to something?
19:22:07  <andythenorth> This Sceptered Isle <- Brit
19:22:14  <andythenorth> think it’s a Shakespeare line
19:22:17  * andythenorth checks
19:22:42  <andythenorth> http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/25255.html
19:22:49  <andythenorth> This precious stone set in the silver sea,
19:22:50  <andythenorth> Which serves it in the office of a wall
19:22:51  <andythenorth> Or as a moat defensive to a house,
19:23:06  <andythenorth> The Blue Danube is generic european river boats
19:23:23  <andythenorth> france/germany/switzerland/austria/hungary etc
19:23:35  <andythenorth> rhine / rhone / elbe / danube
19:25:32  <Alberth> nice reference :)   thanks
19:28:27  <andythenorth> let’s try frosch’s patch...
19:31:19  <andythenorth> frosch123 so I should use the effect_spawn_model prop, not visual_effect?
19:31:23  <andythenorth> seems the obvious conclusion
19:32:59  <frosch123> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3639/ <- yup, remove all "visual_effect", and add effect_spawn_model and create_effect
19:34:29  <andythenorth> ta
19:43:30  <andythenorth> oops
19:43:44  <andythenorth> so can’t use python3 nml and python2 build
19:43:57  * andythenorth overlooked that nmlc is installed into the virtualenv
19:46:46  <andythenorth> I guess I could have the makefile switch virtualenv
19:49:15  <andythenorth> hmm
19:49:24  <andythenorth> nml is borked
19:49:48  <andythenorth> make install fails I think
19:51:36  <andythenorth> L145 onwards http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3652/
19:53:24  <frosch123> that is not in my nml
19:55:07  <frosch123> your quote uses python2 syntax
19:55:13  <frosch123> so, what nml are you running?
19:57:49  <frosch123> night
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19:59:34  <andythenorth> this is nml 0.4.0
19:59:42  <andythenorth> nml==0.4.0.r5307M-0be320b4fa1a
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20:03:12  <andythenorth> well the smoke works
20:03:19  <andythenorth> frosch left too early :P
20:06:44  <andythenorth> steam hovercraft ftw
20:06:45  <andythenorth> looks nice
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20:22:00  <andythenorth> maybe I should convert my compiles to python 3
20:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that help anybody?
20:27:42  <andythenorth> I don’t see how a python3 project will run in a python2 environment
20:27:50  <andythenorth> fundamentally, how is that supposed to work?
20:28:31  <andythenorth> surely it’s just a fool’s errand?
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20:29:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the point is that you can easily have python2 and python3 simultaneously
20:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as one script doesn't call the other script, there's no overlap
20:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you'd use the makefile for calling scripts like normal people...
20:31:30  <andythenorth> this is the makefil
20:31:35  <andythenorth> makefile *
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20:32:04  <andythenorth> if I call python3 nml with a python2 virtualenv active, it bails
20:32:09  <andythenorth> as you’d expect :P
20:32:17  <andythenorth> how is this not the expected result?
20:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> in the makefile you have a line "PYTHON=blah", just replace that with two lines "PYTHON2=blah" and "PYTHON3=blub". then replace every $(PYTHON) with either $(PYTHON2) or $(PYTHON3)
20:33:43  <keoz> Changing the Makefile.in did the trick for me
20:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause> of course your "virtualenv" needs to have both python2 and python3 installed
20:34:11  <andythenorth> this seems like a lot of string
20:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, also every literal "python" needs to be changed into either of these
20:38:37  <andythenorth> I don’t understand how to install 2 pythons into a virtualenv
20:38:43  <andythenorth> that seems to be anti-virtualenv
20:39:09  <andythenorth> I think if I go into #python or whatever and ask how to switch pythons in a virtualenv, I’ll get kbanned
20:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> your virtualenvs seem to be a terrible concept
20:39:13  <andythenorth> they’re not mine :O
20:39:21  <andythenorth> they’re the standard solution
20:39:35  <andythenorth> I have no other fricking idea how you do work
20:39:39  <Eddi|zuHause> is that like a chroot?
20:39:56  <andythenorth> honestly how do you get anything done without virtualenv?
20:40:15  <andythenorth> in any given day I am working on python 2.4, python 2.6, python 2.7 and now, python 3
20:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> who says i get anything done?
20:40:24  <andythenorth> plus Apple have their own ideas about python
20:40:44  <Alberth> it has its own ideas about everything :)
20:41:18  <keoz> :p
20:41:32  <andythenorth> it used to have one idea
20:41:35  <andythenorth> now it has many
20:41:41  <andythenorth> one man, one idea
20:41:42  <andythenorth> :P
20:41:44  <keoz> Switch to linux.
20:42:00  <andythenorth> does that magically run multiple pythons together?
20:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:42:13  <andythenorth> do your scripts just ‘know’ which one to use?
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20:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:42:19  <keoz> well at least here, I have python 2 and 3. Without problems.
20:42:23  <andythenorth> how do they know?
20:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> they say that in the first line
20:42:33  <Eddi|zuHause> #!/bin/python
20:42:36  <Eddi|zuHause> #!/bin/python3
20:43:40  <andythenorth> ha :)
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20:44:18  <Alberth> #!/usr/bin/env python3
20:44:23  <Eddi|zuHause> this first line gets evaluated by your shell, when you type "./script.py"
20:44:44  <andythenorth> yes
20:44:57  <andythenorth> changing the shebangs is definitely seen as good practice
20:45:09  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: sure it's the shell, I think it deeper, in the kernel somewhere
20:45:25  <andythenorth> changing the shebangs on every file definitely wouldn’t get your commits reverted instantly
20:45:44  <andythenorth> anyway, I can’t see how to make progress
20:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and then you get the weird distributions who think /bin/python should be mapped to /bin/python3
20:46:04  <Eddi|zuHause> where every legacy python program will break
20:46:14  <andythenorth> or they just get a virtualenv...
20:46:22  <andythenorth> anyway the virtualenv is misleading
20:46:56  <andythenorth> even with virtualenv deactivated, nml is still borked
20:47:12  <andythenorth> it only works if I run it in a python3 virtualenv
20:47:30  <andythenorth> hmm
20:47:33  <andythenorth> maybe it’s just missing deps
20:47:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it probably is
20:47:53  <andythenorth> so I have to install deps systemwide to get this to work?
20:48:02  <andythenorth> that is just not the right solution
20:48:08  <andythenorth> installing deps systemwide is always a problem
20:48:17  <andythenorth> always / often /s
20:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily install the deps into the nml directory
20:49:16  <andythenorth> that sounds good
20:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "install"
20:49:31  <andythenorth> add it to the path?
20:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the pythonpath variable?
20:50:01  <andythenorth> yes
20:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that should work
20:50:34  <andythenorth> I suspect that might be all a virtualenv really does :P I didn’t check
20:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a Makefile.local where you can cram that stuff into
20:50:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe Makefile.config
20:51:05  <andythenorth> there is
20:53:59  <andythenorth> I think if I just migrated my scripts to python 3 this would go away as a problem
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20:55:33  <Eddi|zuHause> problems that are made to "go away" have a tendency to reappear
20:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> like you solve it for FISH, now, next week you have to do it for FIRS as well
20:56:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and then for iron horse, and then...
20:57:10  <andythenorth> yair
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21:01:28  * andythenorth could just give in and add the deps systemwide
21:01:35  <andythenorth> I’ll get yelled at for it
later
21:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the key element to check for adding things systemwide is that you don't break stuff that is already working by doing so
21:11:30  <andythenorth> I’ve got a magic get out for most cases now
21:11:37  <andythenorth> which is that policy is to use virtualenv
21:11:48  <andythenorth> that only leaves non-work stuff to go wrong
21:11:49  <andythenorth> :P
21:12:01  <andythenorth> ply fails to install
21:12:03  <andythenorth> pillow installed ok
21:12:07  <andythenorth> but python3 can’t find it
21:12:34  <andythenorth> it’s in the site-packages dir that python3 is running from
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21:14:31  <andythenorth> solved
21:14:39  * andythenorth rtfm on PYTHONPATH
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21:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhen i'm gonna add a manual called "m.rtf"
21:25:48  <andythenorth> tfm doesn’t explain why my python 2.7 is now importing from the python 3.3 site-packages
21:25:52  <andythenorth> so PIL is broken
21:25:59  <andythenorth> amongst other fun things
21:28:15  <andythenorth> ok, bed time
21:28:21  <andythenorth> I broke everything, time to stop
21:28:44  <andythenorth> I now have broken nml, broken Iron Horse, broken FISH, broken bash_profile, and broken system-wide python
21:28:47  <andythenorth> doing pretty well
21:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> just a normal day at the office
21:30:10  <andythenorth> a good day’s work
21:30:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why whenever someone asks what i'm doing, i'm answering "i'm breaking everything"
21:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> with the bonus that if it's actually broken afterwards i can say "i told you so"
21:33:04  <andythenorth> bonus
21:33:22  <andythenorth> I will come back to this tomorrow, or another day entirely :P
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21:34:26  <Alberth> gn
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21:36:01  <andythenorth> it’s not helpful that the version of nmlc created by make install appears to be borked
21:39:21  * andythenorth tests other tags
21:39:44  <andythenorth> 0.3.1 is borked
21:40:25  <andythenorth> 0.3.0 tests pass
21:43:59  <andythenorth> the effects patch works on nml 0.3.0 too
21:44:10  <andythenorth> although that solves not a lot :)
21:47:16  <Zuu> Or just stick to python 2.x?
21:47:30  <Zuu> That seems to be what most people do.
21:48:19  <andythenorth> not an option
21:48:25  <andythenorth> nml has moved to python3
21:48:40  <andythenorth> the version that will be shipped to bundle server will be python3
21:48:42  <andythenorth> I assume
22:00:10  <andythenorth> don’t even ask
22:00:10  <andythenorth>  PYTHONPATH=../../lib/python2.6/site-packages && python2.7 src/build_fish.py
22:00:17  <andythenorth> in a python3 virtualenv
22:00:19  <andythenorth> possibly works
22:00:32  <andythenorth> and yes, 2.6 and 2.7 are not a typo :(
22:01:00  <andythenorth> definitely bedtime
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22:20:29  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:26:22  <berndj-blackout> i've always wondered about openttd's splash screen - is it just an animation or is it running a simulation in the background?
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22:32:05  <Zuu> berndj-blackout: It is a savegame running in the background
22:32:17  <Zuu> opentile.dat
22:32:34  <Zuu> Copy it to opentile.sav and you can open it in the game.
22:33:36  <berndj-blackout> heh, cool, i'm totally going to do that right now
22:42:23  <berndj-blackout> *opntitle.dat btw; money everywhere!
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22:44:48  <planetmaker> probably cheated money, berndj-blackout
22:44:58  <planetmaker> check the cheat dialogue (ctrl+alt+c)
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22:46:27  <berndj-blackout> it doesn't show any operating cheats for me...
22:47:16  <planetmaker> then it's indeed well-earned money
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22:51:00  <berndj-blackout> i'm not referring to the total amount, just to income popping up everywhere
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22:54:12  <planetmaker> ah yeah. Pretty busy savegame for the 1.4 series :)
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23:06:57  <berndj-blackout> in general, if i want to "up my game", what's a good idea to do?
23:08:32  *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:11:45  <planetmaker> what do you understand under "up your game"?
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23:12:19  <planetmaker> The best way is to just play. Maybe join a multiplayer server where you can play with other people and get direct feedback
23:12:27  <planetmaker> e.g. the #openttdcoop or reddit servers
23:13:22  <berndj-blackout> for one, i want my networks to end up looking less like this: http://www.bpj-code.co.za/images/screenshots/spaghetti-junction-sonderfurt.jpeg
23:13:56  <berndj-blackout> yeah i tried reddit's servers but apparently i need their custom client. i don't have the courage to compile openttd right now
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23:14:29  <planetmaker> you only need that on some of their servers. Or join the #openttdcoop Welcome server
23:16:11  <Sylf> awww, that spaghetti juction is half way beautiful
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23:43:16  <berndj-blackout> Sylf, care to elaborate? do you mean in an aesthetic sense or technically? i built it organically. originally just one line running between lake and city
23:44:01  <Sylf> It's fun to look at
23:44:47  <Sylf> There's nothing wrong with rails going everywhere in my play style, as long as they are all built with intention
23:48:19  <berndj-blackout> i find a lot of my rail chaos results from trying to gradually convert between rail types. i end up with duplicated paths

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