Log for #openttd on 2nd October 2014:
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01:33:41  <MTsPony> mhh this is odd, im saving a scenario as a heightmap, then i reload it into openttd and it deviates slightly
01:33:57  <MTsPony> i used the same size
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01:37:43  <MTsPony> actually nvm, i know whats going on
01:41:57  <SHOTbyGUN> what are the options to reduce amount of passengers generated ? Googling only reveals stuff about "patching", so no simple mod for adjusting it ?
01:43:17  <MTsPony> use townsets with small buildings? :D
01:44:38  <SHOTbyGUN> there is lot of simple, half this quadruple that, but not for passengers :(
01:46:44  <MTsPony> why would you want that? you can always use the grf to reduce passenger payment
01:46:55  <MTsPony> if you think that its too profitable
01:47:56  <SHOTbyGUN> yeah I already have half profit from passengers, but still needing 40 busses for city feels dumb
01:48:20  <MTsPony> why? seems realistic?
01:48:40  <SHOTbyGUN> it does not feel realistic to me :F
01:48:58  <MTsPony> use a grf set with busses that have highest capacity?
01:51:26  <SHOTbyGUN> MTsPony
01:52:10  <SHOTbyGUN> even if I had bigger busses, I would need 6+ passenger ships to make outside connection
01:54:24  <MTsPony> i know the right solution for ya, run a build with daylength patch
01:54:41  <MTsPony> slow down time/passenger production, and same vehicle speed.
01:54:51  <SHOTbyGUN> oh, nice :o
01:55:05  <MTsPony> reddit has a build for that you can use :) or play on our servers instead :p
01:55:12  <MTsPony> afk
01:55:19  <SHOTbyGUN> I am just testing out Server #2
01:55:57  <SHOTbyGUN> no BigGUI in reddit client :(
01:56:13  <MTsPony> is that a grf?
01:57:52  <SHOTbyGUN> ya
01:58:04  <MTsPony> openttd can use static grfs too, read up on how to use it. not all grfs work as static though.
01:58:40  <SHOTbyGUN> oh :o
01:59:28  <MTsPony> so you could potentially load your own grfs even when connecting to multiplayer server, but again its usually limited to grwphic replacement grfs, so youd have to try it out
02:00:17  <SHOTbyGUN> k, thx, nowhere is said what reddit client is... is it basically just collection of patches and grf:s ?
02:01:41  <MTsPony> its a patched game (openttd.exe)
02:01:52  <MTsPony> grfs are not related to it though
02:11:23  <Supercheese> Is there some further information on what sort of patches have been applied to the Reddit client, other than the raw .diff included in the bundle?
02:15:47  <SHOTbyGUN> I tried to find out, but I think they dont want us to know :O
02:16:00  <MTsPony>
02:16:09  <MTsPony> currently its only stated there xD
02:16:25  <Supercheese> Aah, patches active, there it is
02:16:46  <SHOTbyGUN> damn, I was true fool when I tried to look under the reddit client section "duh!"
02:16:53  <MTsPony> yeah :/
02:17:24  <MTsPony> that stuff actually belongs on the page where the client can be downloaded. ill plan a fix when im not too busy :p
02:17:34  <SHOTbyGUN> that'd be great
02:19:15  <MTsPony> done
02:19:21  <MTsPony> on the bottom
02:20:32  <Supercheese> Neat, Server 2 uses one of my grfs :)
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02:26:32  <SHOTbyGUN> why Grocer's store shop doesnt want my alcohol :( ?
02:30:50  <Supercheese> perhaps you spelled Whisky/Whiskey with or without an e to their disliking
02:30:56  <Supercheese> ;)
02:36:44  <SHOTbyGUN> oh it was bug in station, remade it and now it accepts it :)
02:36:56  <SHOTbyGUN> first time I saw a bug :)
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04:28:07  <SHOTbyGUN> is Enonomy: inflation just visual aspect, does it really affect gameplay?
04:29:44  <Supercheese> it definitely does
04:29:54  <Supercheese> Inflation will make it harder and harder to be profitable as the years tick by
04:31:05  <SHOTbyGUN> if inflation increases all prices and also income, is it just +-0 ?
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04:56:09  <SHOTbyGUN> by default airport costs 50 000 but maitenance is 400 000 ... ?
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04:56:56  <SHOTbyGUN> I suppose I have to increase airport building cost to 1 000 000 somehow, dunno how
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05:07:41  <SHOTbyGUN> or rather I'd like large airport to to be 400 000 initially and 400 000 annually
05:08:10  <Supercheese> Inflation makes it such that costs rise faster than profits
05:08:14  <Supercheese> it says so in the helptext
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05:18:30  <SHOTbyGUN> oh thx
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05:41:03  <SHOTbyGUN> <MTsPony> thx this day time reduction works wonders :) ... finally it is reasonable to get passengers from another cities, when there is not enough passengers in the vincinity of the airport :P
05:46:16  <Supercheese> Daylength is one of those highly desirable, easily implemented but with a few problems, very tough to implement without any problems
05:46:25  <Supercheese> desirable features*
05:48:42  <SHOTbyGUN> Daylength decreases income too right :o ?
05:49:06  <Supercheese> That depends, there are different implementations of daylength
05:49:18  <SHOTbyGUN> oh :F
05:49:27  <SHOTbyGUN> I am using the reddit client
05:49:31  <Supercheese> generally, I think it will increase income, because now your vehicles can make more trips in the same date-interval
05:49:38  <Supercheese> since the dates progress more slowly
05:49:52  <Supercheese> but it gets rather complicated
05:49:59  <SHOTbyGUN> yeah, making vehicle maitenance (less costly)
05:50:17  <SHOTbyGUN> seems like they never need to go to depot haha
05:50:28  <Supercheese> does Reddit play with breakdowns on? :\
05:50:36  * Supercheese cannot stand breakdowns
05:50:57  <SHOTbyGUN> oh, well if it is not on, that'd explain why no depot :F
05:51:25  <Supercheese> Indeed
05:51:43  <SHOTbyGUN> oh finally a breakdown on aircraft
05:52:14  <SHOTbyGUN> servicing interval 100 days ... times 5 Day length XD
05:53:09  <SHOTbyGUN> I am trying to make good configuration to make challenging game :P and I think I am getting there
05:53:34  <SHOTbyGUN> reddit servers didint have cargo distribution on so I dont want to play there :(
05:55:10  * Supercheese doesn't use cargodist
05:55:25  <Supercheese> might try out Reddit then
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06:01:17  <Supercheese> Anyone know what the ISO langcode for Latin is?   Maybe la_LA?
06:02:26  <SHOTbyGUN> dunno, other than ISO-8859-1
06:03:18  <SHOTbyGUN> but I think internet agrees that its UTF-8 or die
06:03:46  <Supercheese> err
06:03:49  <Supercheese> I meant Latin language
06:03:52  <Supercheese> Lingua Latina
06:04:04  <Supercheese> like en_US for US English
06:04:37  <SHOTbyGUN> oh D
06:04:48  <SHOTbyGUN> no idea
06:05:11  <Supercheese> oh hmm
06:06:40  <Supercheese> I guess it needn't have a second -part
06:06:42  <SHOTbyGUN> im sure you can just google em
06:06:43  <Supercheese> so just la
06:08:15  <Supercheese> although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion
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06:35:47  <NGC3982> Morning.
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06:41:41  <SHOTbyGUN> Day Length Factor worked well to reduce passenger spawning, but it also slowed my economy down :( looks like there is no production factor :(
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07:06:37  <SHOTbyGUN> reducing passenger spawning is impossible :'(
07:07:22  <SHOTbyGUN> someone plz fix
07:07:45  <planetmaker> use a NewGRF with less passengers / inhabitants per house
07:07:48  <Supercheese> There's a NewGRF for That™
07:07:51  <Supercheese> dangit ninjaed
07:07:53  <planetmaker> thus: your problem is already fixed
07:07:59  <planetmaker> :) Moin Supercheese
07:08:01  <SHOTbyGUN> I have googled 3 days now
07:08:04  <SHOTbyGUN> link please?
07:08:11  <Supercheese> planetmaker: you ninja, you :P
07:08:21  <planetmaker> breakfast-ninja ;)
07:09:58  <planetmaker> maybe early houses. ttrs is rather the anti-thesis of that
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07:12:13  <SHOTbyGUN> that mod only reduces passenger generation if year is less than 1929
07:12:32  <Supercheese> there are others, or at least should be
07:13:16  <Supercheese> TaI by Pikka should have much lower pax
07:13:21  <Supercheese>
07:13:35  <planetmaker> it has an ugly influence on town growth ;)
07:13:40  <Supercheese> well, yes
07:14:29  <Supercheese> I find the enormous amounts of pax merely a challenge to be embraced rather than avoided
07:14:47  <Supercheese> in TTRS, I mean
07:22:04  <SHOTbyGUN> Supercheese what is TTRS ?
07:22:14  <Supercheese> Total Town Replacement Set
07:22:21  <Supercheese> popular Town newgrf
07:23:30  <SHOTbyGUN> oh, gotta test that out
07:23:45  <SHOTbyGUN> if it helps out with my problem =)
07:23:53  <Supercheese> hahaha no
07:23:59  <Supercheese> it will overload you with more passengers
07:24:05  <V453000> XD
07:24:32  <SHOTbyGUN> oh :F
07:25:08  <SHOTbyGUN> so if I have 1000 population city with 1200 passengers on the stations, and 40+ busses trying to keep the stations not glogging
07:25:18  <SHOTbyGUN> all roads are filled with busses
07:25:30  <Supercheese> solution: find a more efficient transport method
07:25:32  <SHOTbyGUN> you telling me this is the way to get more passengers :O ?
07:25:33  <Supercheese> trams, trains
07:25:39  <Supercheese> better buses
07:25:43  <V453000> just provide better service :)
07:25:47  <Supercheese> ^ that
07:25:48  <andythenorth> really?
07:25:58  <andythenorth> afaict over-supply of pax isn’t solvable
07:25:58  <V453000>
07:26:18  <andythenorth> so many people assume this is some kind of designed in gameplay challenge :)
07:26:23  <andythenorth> when it’s totally accidental
07:26:24  <Supercheese> Buses, much like in real life oddly enough, are not suitable for enormous amounts of passengers
07:26:41  <andythenorth> bulldoze canals into town
07:26:42  <andythenorth> use ships
07:26:43  <Supercheese> andythenorth:  though it may be an accident it is nonetheless a nice challenge
07:26:55  <andythenorth> ships have infinite capacity, subject to your CPU
07:26:56  <Supercheese> Yep ships are the ultimate solution, infinite capacity
07:27:13  <andythenorth> Venice Everywhere
07:27:25  <SHOTbyGUN> yeah, but I was thinking about fixing the game, not exploiting it
07:27:37  <SHOTbyGUN> lower pax generation 4x or 8x and I am very happy
07:27:42  <Supercheese> Eh, potato/potato
07:28:04  <SHOTbyGUN> currently you just make city -> train -> city = 1 million a year
07:28:08  <SHOTbyGUN> game win
07:28:17  <andythenorth> try TaI
07:28:28  <Supercheese> was suggested
07:28:36  <SHOTbyGUN> yeah I am going to do that now
07:28:45  <andythenorth> all the other house grfs build huge buildings as the city grows
07:28:51  <andythenorth> with high pax generation
07:28:56  <V453000> which is why money doesnt matter at all SHOTbyGUN
07:29:00  <V453000> it is just a number
07:29:34  <andythenorth> there is a group of players who aim for city growth, rather than pax transport
07:29:48  <V453000> the game complexity is in creating interesting train networks, you can get a lot of money in your first game if you fast forward, win
07:29:52  <andythenorth> and some of the grfs head in the direction of huge populations, rather than 100% clearance
07:30:17  <V453000> people who grow towns without servicing them properly are just dumb
07:30:29  <V453000> but having high amount of pax doesnt mean growing is a bad thing
07:30:44  <V453000> you just need better trains / more intense network to keep the town serviced
07:30:51  <V453000> key idea stays
07:31:12  <planetmaker> andythenorth, pax supply directly correlates with inhabitants in area covered by station. Make a low population house set and you somewhat 'solve' that. If population count and passenger supply is considered a problem, that is
07:31:15  <V453000> train newGRFs have so different pax capacities that it is basically impossible to "fix"
07:31:34  <andythenorth> station walking :P
07:31:35  <andythenorth> win
07:31:39  <V453000> .. :)
07:32:25  <V453000> for example, latest YETI ideas are that you get more workers per delivered pax/mail to the worker yard -> more industry production
07:32:28  <andythenorth> IH metro gives you 400pax in a 1 tile train btw
07:32:40  <V453000> meaning that growing a town is completely sensible, but you have to care for it and take the products from it somewhere
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07:32:41  <planetmaker> that's HUGE
07:32:50  <V453000> 400 per tile is just retarded
07:33:00  <V453000> even the highest capacity of slowest trains in NUTS is 240 per tile
07:33:13  <fonsinchen> Supercheese: la_RM (latin/roman empire) ;)
07:33:31  <V453000> DB set transrapid had 240 too I believe
07:33:46  <Supercheese> I just have it la_LA at the moment
07:33:46  <V453000> except it went 500 kmh with instant acceleration XD not broken.
07:33:54  <Supercheese> la_VA for Vatican?
07:34:06  * Supercheese does not know
07:34:21  <V453000> I think NUTS is kind of okay vs. normal town sets like japanese buildings, but e.g. UKRS SUFFERS due to low capacities
07:34:29  <andythenorth> V453000: 400 is for a reason :P
07:34:37  <fonsinchen> maybe. The _LA part doesn't make any sense as there is no such country as 'LA' (or maybe it's Los Angeles).
07:34:42  <Supercheese> yeah....
07:34:43  <V453000> andythenorth: which is? :D
07:34:51  <Supercheese> la_US?
07:34:51  <fonsinchen> Anyway, there are ISO codes without second part
07:34:56  * Supercheese is American after all
07:35:12  <andythenorth> V453000: so you can fit 400 pax in a tile train of course
07:35:14  <Supercheese> I would just as soon keep it at la
07:35:24  <fonsinchen> The second part is only needed for languages that are slightly different in different regions where they're spoken
07:35:25  <Supercheese> but every other language in OTTD has both parts, so I was uncertain
07:35:43  <fonsinchen> Then we probably don't use ISO codes
07:35:45  <Supercheese> and there are different pronunciations around, but not so much spellings
07:35:57  <__ln__> fonsinchen: we don't?
07:36:17  <fonsinchen> Otherwise we shouldn't have a second part for things like, say, romanian
07:36:18  <V453000> XD
07:36:20  <Supercheese> the field in the .lang file is "##isocode en_US"
07:36:21  <V453000> just wtf andy
07:36:28  <V453000> but okay :D
07:36:34  <V453000> how fast are the trains pulling such wagons andythenorth ?
07:36:42  <andythenorth> 65mph, metro
07:36:53  <__ln__> the country part of the locale identifier usually (though not maybe in OTTD) affects things such as date formatting, which are more related to country than the language.
07:37:13  <V453000> well at least that
07:37:23  <V453000> but still, 400 ...  :)
07:37:30  <fonsinchen> Yes, but if the language is only spoken in one country then that determines it already
07:37:38  <andythenorth> why are the canadian grfs on bananas?
07:37:44  <andythenorth> I thought they were being removed?
07:38:51  <V453000> I guess they just dont show in openttd due to max version?
07:39:07  <fonsinchen> I just remember the language stuff because at some point I tried to understand this:
07:39:26  <Supercheese> Technically I think only the Vatican still has Latin as an official language
07:39:39  <V453000> I do not believe anybody supports this cunt and is willing to remove things from bananas and break those newGRFs for players (again)
07:40:07  <Supercheese> despite numerous national mottos/text on currencies being in Latin
07:40:12  <fonsinchen> Mind that this is not complete, there are also codes with an "@<characterSet>" after them, for example for Japanese where they have the same language in different writings
07:40:47  <andythenorth> he should just upload blank grfs
07:40:55  <V453000> andythenorth: somebody probably didnt realize it is possible to download things manually :P
07:40:58  <andythenorth> currently all can stuff is still available to download
07:40:59  <V453000> haha
07:41:01  <V453000> would be cute
07:41:04  <Supercheese> Yeah the Canadian grfs have been subject to excessive amounts of drama
07:41:12  <andythenorth> would be sensible for him to blank them
07:41:55  <Supercheese> "sensible"
07:41:57  <V453000> he will come back with his full mouth of bullshit sooner or later anyway
07:43:04  <__ln__> even though i'm the one who introduced the isocode thing in to OTTD translations, i don't quite remember whether the country information is mandatory or not.
07:44:07  <Supercheese> Well, judging purely by precedent, it seems mandatory
07:44:30  <Supercheese> of course, "precedent be damned" is an option as well
07:45:17  <fonsinchen> I have to leave now, but I can try to dig out the standard document tonight. I think I've read it at some point.
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07:51:32  <Eddi|zuHause> <Supercheese> although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion <-- the second part denotes country-specific localisation
07:52:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so you could have a difference between de_DE and de_CH
07:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause> even though it's technically the same language
07:52:44  <Supercheese> aye... so what then for Latin?
07:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which country has a significant amount of latin speakers? :p
07:53:29  <Supercheese> well, as I said, only the Vatican it would seem
07:53:42  <Supercheese> but only because their dearth of citizens
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07:53:54  <Supercheese> so per capita the fluency is high ;)
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07:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause> "the region subtag MAY be omitted, as when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag."
08:00:16  <Supercheese> Well then.
08:01:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so i guess "la" will do
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08:19:29  <fjb> Moin.
08:21:43  <planetmaker> officially Vatican and Malta have latin as language
08:23:06  <planetmaker> or I read it wrongly and "Sovereign Military Order of Malta" is not identical to Malta itself
08:23:09  <planetmaker>
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08:23:55  <planetmaker> seems I did
08:24:06  <planetmaker> so Vatican is bigger. It probably has more than 3 citizens :D
08:24:13  <V453000> :d
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08:47:37  <argoneus> I am still not exactly sure
08:47:50  <argoneus> does this game have anything from the original TTD? like reverse engineered code etc
08:47:56  <argoneus> or is it all brand new, just using similar graphics and same gameplay
08:49:02  <V453000>  /same graphics and similar gameplay? :D
08:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the code was reverse engineered and then slowly replaced/improved over time
08:51:14  <argoneus> almost identical graphics and almost identical gameplay ;p
08:51:41  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: so basically the original devs looked how chris made the game, and then kinda rewrote that?
08:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat. the original was written in assembler, and this project got started as a complete reimplementation in c
08:52:28  <argoneus> and now it's C++ :D
08:52:31  <argoneus> or wait, it's not
08:52:36  <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally
08:52:47  <argoneus> it still blows my mind
08:52:50  <argoneus> how he just sat down
08:52:55  <argoneus> and made two groundbreaking games in asm
08:53:01  <argoneus> and just carried on with his life
08:53:13  <argoneus> (unless I missed something other than ttd and rct)
08:53:43  <argoneus> I was happy to write a super simple calculator in asm, and it was 800 something lines
08:53:47  <argoneus> and he makes a whole damn game
08:54:02  <argoneus> and in an age when C was widely used already, too
08:54:09  <argoneus> it's just really mind boggling
08:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> what is a "boggle" anyway?
08:57:05  <argoneus> dunno, I just use it as a phrase
08:57:24  <andythenorth> can’t conceptualise a boggle
08:57:42  <V453000> subsitute it with fuck
08:58:16  <argoneus> english is a flexible language
08:58:22  <argoneus> you can express most things with a variation of fuck
08:59:08  <__ln__> argoneus: yes, this game is a result of reverse engineering TTD.
08:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> like replace every instance of "smurf" with  "fuck"?
08:59:18  <argoneus> that's impressive in its own way
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09:06:57  <peter1138> 20 years ago writing games in assembly was fairly common.
09:07:18  <andythenorth> also spreadsheets
09:07:24  <andythenorth> and screensavers
09:07:31  <peter1138> Declining by the 90s, though.
09:10:12  <argoneus> I wonder why so little people play this game
09:10:17  <argoneus> I feel there's more modders and developers than players
09:10:46  <peter1138> Because it isn't an AAA FPS shooter on XBONE.
09:11:09  <argoneus> I mean
09:11:13  <argoneus> I understand games like dwarf fortress
09:11:15  <andythenorth> because it doesn’t have dragons
09:11:17  <argoneus> the graphics are no graphics
09:11:25  <argoneus> and it's like the most complex game ever
09:11:31  <argoneus> but this game isn't hard to get into
09:11:34  <argoneus> nor does it look bad
09:12:17  <V453000> it doesnt tell people what to do
09:12:20  <V453000> simple reason
09:12:39  <argoneus> is there a wiki page like "your first game"?
09:12:40  <V453000> with that, majority does not discover the complexity of the game because they have no goal
09:12:46  <planetmaker> oh, many people can't handle a "no directions" game ;)
09:12:58  <argoneus> *cough* minecrap *cough*
09:13:08  <planetmaker> argoneus, not that I know, but you could create such page
09:13:10  * __ln__ just installed a preview of Windows NT 6.2
09:13:26  <argoneus> planetmaker: I could I guess
09:13:41  <argoneus> I'm playing with a friend right now who is super new to the game, and he's struggling with a lot of things
09:13:44  <argoneus> might focus on those things
09:13:56  <liq3> It's a really a game that's quite hard without spending a while reading the wiki.
09:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: isn't it already at 6.3?
09:14:10  <liq3> Especially signals. Those things are mysterious.
09:14:40  <argoneus> I might try making an introduction for totally new players wiki page kinda thing
09:14:42  <peter1138> Adding 4x zoom didn't help. New players complain that the graphics are blocky and crap.
09:14:46  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: apparently not
09:14:47  <argoneus> but I'm surprised no one did so yet
09:15:07  <argoneus> like
09:15:13  <argoneus> explaining signals in two paragraphs, and linking to the lengthy page
09:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: probably loads of people did
09:15:26  <andythenorth> add dragons
09:15:28  <andythenorth> problem solved
09:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> there are video tutorials and stuff
09:15:46  <andythenorth> also we don’t have any ‘now do this’ buttons
09:15:49  <argoneus> I for one hate video tutorials
09:15:53  <argoneus> they're always like
09:15:57  <andythenorth> some of the most popular tablet games aren’t games
09:16:01  <argoneus> "so umm welcome to my.. umm.. openttd game"
09:16:06  <planetmaker> peter1138, the default graphics are 8bpp. Maybe we should switch default base set to zBase. But then it would need serious polishing before I'd advise so
09:16:06  <andythenorth> they’re just walk-throughs with rendered iso sprites
09:16:09  <argoneus> "if you like this video, please, ummm.. like and subscribe"
09:16:09  <peter1138> A lot of people can only play Minecraft because they watched LP videos.
09:16:23  <peter1138> And they just copy what was done in the video;.
09:16:23  <argoneus> I also noticed there are no streams anywhere
09:16:26  <argoneus> I could stream this game
09:16:37  <peter1138> planetmaker, no because zBase is fecking ugly.
09:16:38  <__ln__> this WinNT 6.2 has a command prompt window that is resizeable, supports copy&paste, selecting easily with the mouse.
09:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: there is also a tutorial game script, which nobody who is new will actually find
09:16:46  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: tutorial game script?
09:16:51  <argoneus> what is that
09:17:04  <peter1138> (But lots of people think it's better just because it's higher resolution)
09:17:11  <argoneus> zbase makes this look like lego
09:17:23  <liq3> Sounds like we need a big "Tutorial" button on the main menu.
09:17:37  * andythenorth looks around for a fuck to give :)
09:17:39  <andythenorth> doesn’t find any :)
09:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause> just add this game script as default...
09:17:52  <planetmaker> liq3, yes, that might make sense indeed.
09:17:59  <andythenorth> ottd it’s mostly a meta-game
09:18:00  <argoneus> just pay pewdiepie to play this game
09:18:05  <argoneus> instant kid population appears
09:18:09  <andythenorth> mostly the game is developing the game
09:18:14  <andythenorth> not playing the game
09:18:51  <andythenorth> :)
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09:19:21  <V453000> what the fuck did I just read
09:19:41  <argoneus> and then there's people like V453000
09:19:45  <andythenorth> yes
09:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> a random andythenorth splurt?
09:19:48  <planetmaker> V453000, we know what you read. 50% chance 'beer'. 50% chance 'fuck' :P
09:19:49  <andythenorth> there’s always V453000
09:20:03  <V453000> .
09:20:21  <V453000> well the problem is that nobody is able to make a tutoria
09:20:22  <argoneus> I wish there was something like zbase
09:20:22  <V453000> l
09:20:25  <argoneus> but not looking like super shit
09:20:30  <V453000> since like 1% people actually knows how the game works
09:20:40  <V453000> there will be, it will just take time argoneus  :)
09:20:55  <V453000> the amount of people making EZ/32bpp is increasing
09:21:00  <argoneus> zbase feels more like a proof of concept right now
09:21:07  <V453000> which it is yes
09:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> from 1 to 2?
09:21:17  <planetmaker> it took 1...2 years before 32bpp actually was taken up by the community since it became available in grf format
09:21:38  <argoneus> how did people make graphics before?
09:21:47  <argoneus> did they make a 32bit train and then reduce the color amount?
09:21:49  <argoneus> and resolution
09:21:56  <planetmaker> it will take another 1...2 years surely before it is established enough that one can see a general improvement in the way these sprites look
09:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that may have happened, but not a lot
09:22:09  <V453000> argoneus: paletted pixel art
09:22:25  <argoneus> oh, right, pixel art
09:22:27  * argoneus shivers
09:22:34  <planetmaker> it's easy and nice to do
09:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "pointilism" became a thing like 150 years ago
09:22:45  <planetmaker> you should try actually both ways
09:22:46  <V453000> it isnt easy and many people miss that point :P
09:22:57  <V453000> but you can fuck up less than with rendering
09:22:59  <argoneus> I can't even draw a stickman
09:23:02  <V453000> example, opengfx x zbase
09:23:29  <planetmaker> rendering just needs more preparation and work to get the same result, I think
09:23:31  <argoneus> just port the game to cryengine ;)
09:23:55  <Xaroth|Work> cryengine is overrated
09:23:58  <V453000> it saves time on repetitive tasks pm, it is just different :) work amount is comparable
09:24:17  <peter1138> zBase vehicles are too big, and their offsets are wrong very often.
09:24:19  <V453000> e.g. the landscape x roads x rails x everything thing
09:24:21  <planetmaker> argoneus, how many people do you think were born with a talent and ability to programme or create pixel art or rendered art? You won't know until you really tried.
09:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> rendering needs more setup time before you can actually see what you did
09:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and a totally different set of skills
09:24:43  <planetmaker> yeah
09:24:53  <V453000> mostly true yes
09:24:53  <Xaroth|Work> but, i must add
09:24:56  <Xaroth|Work> rotatable maps!
09:25:02  <planetmaker> that's probably the difference. with pixels you get immediate feedback. you don't with rendering
09:25:04  * peter1138 ponders making a 4x zoom version of the TTD baseset...
09:25:13  <peter1138> Manually editing each and every sprite. Sounds like fun.
09:25:17  <V453000> lol
09:25:24  <planetmaker> haha :)
09:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll expect your results in 2 years
09:25:50  <argoneus> planetmaker: I tried 3dsmax, wings 3d, blender, paper + pencil and watercolor, and never produced anything even remotely nonshit
09:25:57  <peter1138> At least your normal zoom would look nice :-)
09:26:11  <argoneus> I have no talent for art, I would have to practice 8 hours every day for years to produce something noncrap
09:26:20  <andythenorth> so did I
09:26:24  <andythenorth> still trying
09:26:32  <V453000> m2
09:26:34  <argoneus> I know talent is overrated, but most people that are good at art were not terrible as children at drawing
09:26:35  <peter1138> argoneus, what do you think artists do?
09:26:48  <V453000> I am terrible at drawing.
09:26:54  <argoneus> my paintings in class were always the worst, that includes others that never even tried drawing
09:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i've produced a handful of decent drawings
09:27:12  <Eddi|zuHause> out of hundreds :)
09:27:40  <argoneus> I think of talent more as a headstart than something inherent no one can overcome
09:27:42  <planetmaker> argoneus, so thought I about myself. I still believe I made the best river sprites this game has ;)
09:28:20  <planetmaker> and sea shore
09:28:25  <argoneus> I dunno
09:28:36  <argoneus> when people are good at drawing, they can see the shapes they want to draw in their head, no?
09:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed that i am really terrible at reproducing things out of my head, but painting something i see in front of me is alright, within limits...
09:29:20  <argoneus> I just don't think
09:29:31  <argoneus> that someone who is literally terrible at drawing anything would be able to do pixel art or even 3d art properly
09:29:40  <liq3> I'm good at drawing things I can see, horrible at everything else. I barely draw too.
09:29:42  <argoneus> I know V453000 said he is bad at drawing, but he's probably not super terrible
09:29:51  <peter1138> Practice practice practice.
09:29:56  <V453000> I am super terrible
09:30:00  <V453000> because I never practiced it
09:30:01  <argoneus> and I don't even have time to practice anymore :<
09:30:15  <argoneus> unless I feel like drawing from 7pm to 11pm every day and then going to bed
09:30:16  <andythenorth> pixel art is just on a grid
09:30:18  <andythenorth> easy
09:30:27  <andythenorth> painting requires your hand to go where your eye wants
09:30:28  <V453000> and I am able to do both pixels and 3D models to some extent
09:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> there are probably loads of pixel artists that are terrible at hand-drawing
09:30:33  <andythenorth> physical skill, limiting
09:30:41  <planetmaker> but then, there's only very few people who ever drew rivers and sea shores for this game and actually spend much time on it. Not much competition. mb's rivers are nice, but they could be more versatile as available NewGRF technique advanced
09:30:44  <V453000> pixel art is not drawing, pixel art is filling pixels in a table
09:30:49  <V453000> Especially with the palette
09:30:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have some river corners? o_O
09:31:02  <andythenorth> river grf :P
09:31:17  <argoneus> I'm amazed every time I see those videos
09:31:26  <peter1138> zBase rivers sucky, incidently. As so road junctions...
09:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: pixel art is a lot about placing "wrong" pixels in places that makes it look really nice when zoomed out
09:31:33  <argoneus> where people open photoshop, draw things, use all the photoshop tools to smoothen, curve, shadow, etc, and it works out perfectly
09:31:56  <argoneus> I wish I could do that, but I don't have the motivation to practice, since there's no guarantee I will actually get any nonshit
09:32:05  <planetmaker> I know, andythenorth :) But one can do more fancy corners. Something which actually currently is only found in ogfx+landscape :)
09:32:17  <V453000> that is true but that is beside the point Eddi :)
09:32:18  <planetmaker> I still want to port that to OpenGFX itself before 1.5
09:32:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes exactly - fancier...
09:32:39  <planetmaker> peter1138, zbase rivers and especially sea shores are the most ugly thing there, yes
09:32:58  <V453000> competition on the most ugly in zbase is big though
09:33:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth, does fancy have a negative connotation?
09:33:16  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but that is usually why rendered stuff looks somewhat bad at this pixelated zoom level
09:33:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no :)
09:33:29  <andythenorth> not at all
09:33:36  <argoneus> by the way
09:33:39  <V453000> it isnt Eddi :) 32bpp allows sub-pixel transitions
09:33:42  <planetmaker> pew :)
09:33:47  <argoneus> why does yeti make my game lag a little when zoomed out? isn't it just a sprite like any other?
09:33:56  <V453000> it is
09:33:57  <argoneus> and I don't even think it's my computer
09:34:02  <V453000> but 128 times that amount XD
09:34:08  <V453000> try increasing sprite cache
09:34:14  <V453000> I have 256
09:34:32  <argoneus> where do you increase that?
09:34:37  <V453000> openttd.cfg
09:34:41  <argoneus> ah ok
09:34:43  <argoneus> I'll try
09:35:07  <planetmaker> andythenorth, for all I know there's ttd rivers, your rivers, mb's, zeph's and some by leppka
09:35:11  <V453000> I think default is 64 or something
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09:35:22  <argoneus> it's probably that, then
09:35:29  <argoneus> my computer should have no reason to struggle with the game
09:35:40  <planetmaker> and all rivers are basically like canals except it's grass border instead of stone
09:35:41  <V453000> I heard from many people that it helps a ton to increase the sprite cache
09:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: just because the game is 20 years old doesn't mean it can't push modern computers to the limits
09:36:16  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the square corners

09:36:34  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: well, I have an overclocked 4670k and a GTX 770
09:36:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth, exactly. And with a bit of programming trickery and more sprites one can do with less square corners
09:36:39  <argoneus> if the game pushed that to the limit
09:36:42  <argoneus> I would be surprised
09:36:51  <planetmaker> like in ogfx+landscape I have truely vertical and horizontal rivers, and that works
09:36:53  <V453000> 1 core matters
09:36:56  <argoneus> I have yet to see something push it to the limit
09:37:00  <argoneus> well
09:37:02  <V453000> go load pzg2013 and say again :)
09:37:05  <argoneus> 4.2 ghz :<
09:37:18  <planetmaker> and in pota-ghat with the 4x zoom one can make a bit more wiggle-waggle river borders, too, so that it looks more natural
09:37:20  <argoneus> and the latest i5 architecture
09:37:24  <planetmaker> similar for sea shores
09:37:32  <argoneus> V453000: what is pzg?
09:37:35  <V453000> pro zone game
09:37:40  <V453000> 5000 trains
09:37:41  <liq3> V453000: That game lags when I zoom out. o.o
09:37:42  <V453000> wrecks shit
09:37:44  <argoneus> is pro zone meant for people like you
09:37:45  <argoneus> ?
09:37:56  <planetmaker> it's managed by people like him ;)
09:37:58  <V453000> well that game is kind of my personal game but it is meant for everybody
09:38:15  <V453000> who knows some basics and wants to build
09:38:15  <argoneus> so unless I can make junctions with 8 lines from each side, I am not good enough
09:38:17  <planetmaker> it's a server for the die-hard crazy builders
09:38:33  <argoneus> :D
09:39:00  <V453000> with 0 games in 2014 ._.
09:39:07  <planetmaker> none of that stuff is built from scratch really. It all evolved in hours of play time
09:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> they all died hard
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09:39:57  <argoneus> so let's say I am tempted to make some sort of tutorial
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09:40:00  <liq3> There a way to show FPS ingame?
09:40:01  <argoneus> what kind of is needed?
09:40:15  <argoneus> I mean
09:40:21  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause said there were all sorts of things
09:40:25  <argoneus> tutorials, video tutorials, game scripts
09:40:32  <argoneus> I'm not sure where one could contribute in that sense
09:41:44  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a) filtering out things that actually give bad advice (like explaining block signals first, and then path signals), and b) putting it in places where newbies will actually come across them
09:42:05  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: why is a) bad?
09:42:11  <argoneus> block signals are much more easy to understand
09:42:16  <argoneus> because there's no black magic
09:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> a) they are not, b) path signals are both easier and more powerful, if you teach them the proper way of thinking
09:42:54  <peter1138> No they're not.
09:42:59  <SpComb> as long as you don't explain presignals
09:43:08  <SpComb> apart from "avoid using these for anything"
09:43:30  <argoneus> mmh
09:43:33  <peter1138> We only kept block signals for compatibility.
09:43:37  <argoneus> I'll try writing a short writeup on signals
09:43:37  <Eddi|zuHause> if you teach them thinking in block signals first, the path signals indeed seem like "black magic"
09:43:41  <argoneus> and consult with you here
09:43:49  <argoneus> is that okay?
09:43:54  <peter1138> First versions were path-signals only :D
09:43:54  <Eddi|zuHause> because they are a huge paradigm shift
09:44:05  <argoneus> but i dunno
09:44:08  <argoneus> block signals are like
09:44:16  <argoneus> here's a railroad, here's a signal, this signal works until next signal, it does this, okay
09:44:17  <SpComb> it's far preferrable to use path-signals only, as opposed to using block signals and then mixing in other things as well
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09:44:20  <argoneus> here's a path signal
09:44:30  <argoneus> it does SOMETHING and RESERVES the BEST path based on SOME penalties
09:44:52  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: see, that is the wrong way of thinking about signals.
09:44:54  <V453000> argoneus: see, even the developers do not understand waht is good for the game, everybody propagates path signals because they are noobs
09:45:04  <SpComb> block signals alone are simpler, but... block signals alone are fairly useless/limiting, you have to use some more complicated signals as well
09:45:20  <SpComb> and at that point block signals become more complicated than just pure path signals
09:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a path signal is "the train may wait here without blocking any other train"
09:45:43  <argoneus> maybe I am biased
09:45:44  <V453000> there is po point in creating proper tutorial if devs tell you otherwise
09:45:47  <argoneus> but yesterday I joined a server
09:45:56  <argoneus> and someone used these so called amazing easy to use path signals
09:46:01  <argoneus>
09:46:11  <argoneus> just why
09:46:23  <V453000> 2way PBS is especially worst
09:46:25  <V453000> == is default
09:46:26  <V453000> perfect.
09:46:28  <peter1138> People do that with block signals too.
09:46:34  <V453000> least intuitive signal
09:46:36  <V453000> looks like 1way
09:46:37  <V453000> is 2way
09:46:46  <V453000> default for new players
09:46:48  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: there is nothing "wrong" with that setup
09:46:59  <peter1138> V453000 obviously hasn't got over the paradigm shift.
09:47:01  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: there isn't nothing wrong in the way it works
09:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause> except that most of the signals are useless
09:47:11  <argoneus> but it's wrong conceptually
09:47:26  <argoneus> there could be block signals everywhere except the one at the entrance to the station
09:47:31  <argoneus> and it would work the same
09:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: so?
09:47:47  <argoneus> arguably even there could be a block signal
09:48:04  <argoneus> I dunno
09:48:10  <argoneus> maybe I think too much programming wise
09:48:11  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a path signal is never worse than a block signal
09:48:16  <argoneus> doesn't the game calculate the best path every time you go past one
09:48:21  <argoneus> (path signal)
09:48:21  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: so there is nothing wrong with path signals everywhere
09:48:37  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no, it only calculates paths when there is an actual choice
09:48:48  <argoneus> so when there isn't, it behaves like a block signal?
09:49:03  <SpComb> I suppose the main point to path signas re a tutorial is that they're the only thing you'll ever need if you know how to use them properly. The main point of a tutorial..
09:50:14  <argoneus> I just think
09:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the main point of a tutorial should be to give the least amount of information necessary to create useful stuff. and in that respect, path signals are faaaaaar superior
09:50:26  <argoneus> that block signals always work much more obviously
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09:50:44  <argoneus> path signals do black magic when you put them before a junction
09:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: i disagree
09:50:53  <argoneus> they work, and they work great
09:51:02  <argoneus> but a new player will not see what happened there
09:51:09  <argoneus> and will just use path signals as an all powerful magic wand
09:51:10  <peter1138> There is no black magic.
09:51:13  <argoneus> to get his trains where he needs
09:51:17  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: if you teach them block signals, the immediate followup is "how do i get them to wait for a free platform?"
09:51:31  <argoneus> p-presignals
09:51:36  <SpComb> argoneus: block signals work great if they're the only kind of signal you would ever need. But they're not. Teaching block signals is short-sighted
09:51:48  <argoneus> I would teach all of them
09:51:51  <argoneus> explain pros and cons of all
09:51:52  <peter1138> Path signals are the only kind of signal you need.
09:51:53  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: if you teach them path signals, the answer to that is: "just remove the signals where it shouldn't be waiting"
09:51:58  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: actually, I had a situation where path signals were worse than block signals.
09:52:09  <liq3> The trains were stopping at the path signal for no reason. Block signals fixed it.
09:52:11  <argoneus> I didn't mean to preach that block signals > path signals
09:52:12  <argoneus> I meant to say
09:52:15  <argoneus> okay you have these two types
09:52:22  <argoneus> you use this for X, this for Y, sometimes these are better
09:52:27  <argoneus> usually you want to use these
09:52:29  <SpComb> argoneus: exactly, and once you explain pre-signals you've screwed up imo. Nobody should be using presignals
09:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: but "teach all of them" is what all the signal tutorials out there already do, and that just produces people saying "this is all waaaaay to complex and complicated for me."
09:52:54  <argoneus> well
09:52:57  <argoneus> from what I've read
09:53:02  <argoneus> most tutorials explain all the signals
09:53:06  <argoneus> and show use cases for all of them
09:53:08  <liq3> SpBot: Presignals are important in a lot of ways.
09:53:11  <argoneus> but don't tell you why you should ne using which
09:53:15  <peter1138> Most start with block signals, which is crap.
09:53:16  <argoneus> be*
09:53:35  <argoneus> there are use cases for pre signals
09:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: while all that is useful information for pro-gamers, this should NOT be in a tutorial
09:54:05  <argoneus> then how about
09:54:15  <argoneus> first I would explain path signals, what they do, how they are used properly
09:54:17  <argoneus> and then
09:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and then nothing
09:54:24  <argoneus> "the game also features an older type of signals, blabla"
09:54:26  <liq3> Actually, I kind of have to agree. For newbies, path signals are fine.
09:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> teach them other stuff
09:54:32  <liq3> Newbies don't need block signals.
09:54:37  <argoneus> I mean like
09:54:40  <argoneus> let them know
09:54:42  <argoneus> you are fine with these
09:54:45  <argoneus> but if you would like to know more
09:54:46  <argoneus> read this
09:54:47  <peter1138> Seasoned players don't need block signals either.
09:54:52  <liq3> peter1138: yes we do?
09:54:54  <peter1138> Some players think they do.
09:55:06  <argoneus> peter1138: how do you make priority lines with just path signals?
09:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause> only crazy people like V think they need block signals
09:55:10  <peter1138> Becauase they like to do weird crap with crazyassed priority systems and the like.
09:55:21  <argoneus> it's not crazy assed
09:55:26  <peter1138> argoneus, I have never in my life needed to make a "priority line".
09:55:30  <argoneus> you don't want a huge full train stop for a small poop train leaving a station
09:55:37  <argoneus> esp. if it has low acceleration
09:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> make a timetable
09:55:55  <liq3> peter1138: you ever had a factory on a 256x256 map producing 10,000 goods a month?
09:55:59  <argoneus> so I should explain timetables to newbies instead of block signas?
09:56:01  <argoneus> signals*
09:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> no
09:56:17  <liq3> and all the trains from it sharing the same mainline as everything else....
09:56:27  *** Celestar [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
09:56:27  <peter1138> One or another train needs to stop to let another train go. I couldn't care less which train actually goes first.
09:56:30  <argoneus> it's not difficult
09:56:34  <argoneus> the tutorial could have 2 parts
09:56:40  <argoneus> "getting started" and "advanced concepts"
09:57:00  <argoneus> first part would be all you need to make money and not have your trains crash
09:57:01  <peter1138> "Stupid concepts" < fixed that for you
09:57:14  <liq3> I should go remove all the priorities on my network to see how much it jams...
09:57:17  <argoneus> second part would be a showcase of more robust things you can do with the game
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09:57:24  <peter1138> If you have so many trains that they are stopping all the time to let others in... make more lines.
09:57:25  <argoneus> if you don't want to read it, don't
09:57:44  <liq3> peter1138: I already have LLL_RRR mainline. 4 would get even more excessive.
09:58:00  <argoneus> I'll just try writing something up later
09:58:03  <argoneus> and then ask you for opinions
09:58:09  <argoneus> it's actually good people here have different opinions
09:58:12  <argoneus> variety is always good
09:58:16  <argoneus> gives more insight
09:58:31  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: maybe you should have made different choices before you even got to the point of a "LLL_RRR" setup?
09:59:01  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: It was LL_RR before. I had to expand it to 3 to deal with cargo production.
09:59:14  <liq3> Admittedly, I set myself the limition of a signal mainline, so.
09:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever had the need for a LL_RR setup either
09:59:32  <liq3> single*
10:00:31  <peter1138> I always wondered why people chose L and R as directions...
10:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> my maps end up looking like this:,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
10:00:35  <peter1138> Lost? Return?
10:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i thought "left track" and "right track"
10:00:52  <liq3> peter1138: it's just left/rigth.
10:01:16  <peter1138> left and right don't indicate the direction at all though. They indicate position. And you already know the position.
10:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, but "all left tracks go into the same direction" is all the relevant information at that point
10:02:56  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, see, that is a beautiful game. I am only missing the connectors to hook up another segment on the left-bottom edge :-)
10:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and it has not a single block signal on it :p
10:04:54  <argoneus> do all signals cost the same maintenance money?
10:04:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an urban myth that path signals need more CPU power, but no evidence was ever brought up to support that claim
10:06:38  <argoneus> I wonder
10:06:48  <argoneus> can I put my tutorial anywhere I want on the wiki?
10:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wiki
10:07:00  * argoneus has never added content to someone else's wiki
10:07:07  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, probably based on this misconception that path signals do path finding...
10:07:11  <argoneus> well
10:07:14  <argoneus> on the normal wiki
10:07:17  <argoneus> the power users always slapped m yshit
10:07:22  <argoneus> whenever I added anything
10:07:24  <argoneus> called me a vandal etc
10:07:41  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you are
10:07:46  <argoneus> :O
10:07:58  <argoneus> peter1138: they don't?
10:08:03  <dih> hello :-)
10:08:12  <argoneus> I mean, don't they reserve a path?
10:08:16  <argoneus> and don't they have to find a path first
10:08:20  <peter1138> No, trains themselves do that.
10:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no. trains reserve a path, not signals
10:08:39  <peter1138> And trains pathfind whenever they encounter a choice.
10:08:42  <argoneus> well
10:08:48  <peter1138> Path signals by themselves are not a choice.
10:09:08  <peter1138> Assuming you take the same route, there is an equal amount of pathfinding regardless of signal type.
10:09:59  <peter1138> It's possible that block signals actually do more work, because they explicitly have to check the status of every other signal in each block.
10:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> there may be even _less_ pathfinding involved, because in a "block" a train may pathfind on every junction tile, but in a "path", all junction tiles until the next signal is processed at the same time
10:10:16  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, :-)
10:10:48  <blathijs> iii/win 20
10:10:50  <blathijs> w00ps
10:11:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i want to win 20 as well :/
10:12:23  <peter1138> Would be interesting to see the evidence for this "slower" claim though.
10:12:31  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: This is my Factory stations
10:12:58  <peter1138> There was the whole 'massive' overhead in marking the path itself...
10:13:59  <peter1138> Ok gotta close Eddi|zuHause's artwork, it's crapping my browser out :S
10:14:40  <peter1138> And liq3's picture is just ugly.
10:14:54  <peter1138> Ah well, I guess I play for aesthetics :p
10:15:15  <peter1138> Not giant multiplatform-but-only-3-tiles-long stations.
10:16:38  <liq3> peter1138: I have trees not drawing for clarity. :p
10:17:22  <liq3> Yeh. That's the difference peter1138. You play for aesthetics, some of us play for crazy throughput. :P
10:17:33  <liq3> Can't do high throughput without pre-signals.
10:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe you just haven't tried properly?
10:18:34  <liq3> I just disabled my priorities on my sideline hubs. The network is grinding to a halt, due to all the delays from joining trains on the mainline. :D
10:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a timetabled conflict-free network, then you don't need presignals
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10:19:09  <liq3> I'm not timetabling 250 trains. o.o
10:20:24  <argoneus> you don't need presignals if you code your own priority system!
10:20:32  <liq3> haha
10:20:34  <argoneus> thus presignals are useless
10:20:47  <peter1138> Feel free.
10:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i would have ripped out presignals years ago...
10:22:10  <argoneus> but sometimes you really need them
10:22:23  <argoneus> if you have a huge station and one path signal
10:22:29  <argoneus> it might send the train into unoptimal paths
10:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> then remove these paths
10:22:41  <argoneus> since it only calculates so far ahead
10:23:16  <peter1138> No...
10:23:17  <planetmaker> block signals do even less look-ahead
10:23:33  <liq3> I did find a situation where path signals stopped the trains for no reason.
10:23:37  <argoneus> but you can place more presignals
10:23:39  <peter1138> Trains always plan the whole route.
10:23:39  <argoneus> you can place combo signals
10:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: "no reason" != "i didn't understand the reason"
10:24:05  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: Block signals fixed it.
10:24:25  <liq3> So it's a path signal specific issue. :p
10:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: i'm sure avoiding black cats also fixed issues
10:24:56  <argoneus> didnt V453000 point out some scenarios where path signals did more bad than good a while ago?
10:25:00  <argoneus> or maybe it was someone else
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10:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: what you mean is not a "fix", but a "workaround"
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10:26:29  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause; well yes.
10:26:38  <Jinassi> good afternoon, Planetmaker, any news about the desync logs from last week?
10:26:41  <peter1138> My car didn't start, so I didn't bother finding out what, I just replaced it.
10:26:51  <peter1138> (Turns out it was out of fuel, crazy black magic huh?)
10:27:27  <argoneus> I just don't see why peter1138 is so set on this
10:27:38  <argoneus> is it bad to admit that pre signals have their use?
10:27:50  <argoneus> and that path signals aren't fine for EVERYTHING but only like 90% of use cases?
10:27:53  <peter1138> 11:21 < Eddi|zuHause> i would have ripped out presignals years ago...
10:27:55  <argoneus> or less
10:27:58  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, hell yes, and block signals :D
10:28:08  <peter1138> Like the original path signals patch. That was awesome.
10:28:24  <argoneus> isn't there a reason they were re-added? :<
10:28:51  <peter1138> They weren't readded. They were just not removed, so that old games would be compatible still.
10:28:53  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: yes, 0.1% of people crying "... but my extremely specialized setup..."
10:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: so it's not 90% but more like 99.9%, and those 0.1% are actually shortcomings in some other features
10:29:43  <liq3> I think I see what the issue is.
10:29:48  <liq3> Just checked my save.
10:30:03  <liq3> Something to do with trains leaving a station with a bypass.
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10:30:25  <liq3> They'll wait for the train to leave the platform instead of using the bypass (which leads to more platforms for the same station).
10:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: then your "occupied platform" penalty isn't large enough for the bypass
10:30:58  <Jinassi> do you have non-stop orders?
10:31:01  <liq3> Yes.
10:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: that's an almost trivial fix
10:31:28  <liq3> If the station is full and no trains are leaving, they use the bypass no problem.
10:31:36  <peter1138> Do you have tons of signals on the bypass?
10:31:41  <liq3> well, first 5 platforms are full.
10:31:47  <liq3> peter1138: yes.
10:31:53  <argoneus> screenshot
10:31:56  <peter1138> Well there you go.
10:32:07  <peter1138> That increases the penalty of the bypass
10:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: so you mean the platform is actually free, just no signal behind it?
10:32:35  <liq3> ...I'll post the screenshot.
10:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: that's actually a shortcoming of the pathfinder, it won't add any penalties for things happening behind the platform
10:33:38  <liq3>
10:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you don't have a signal directly behind the platform, things appear to "break"
10:33:59  <liq3> Problem signal is the bottom right path signal.
10:34:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the "problem" is the time between leaving the platform, and leaving the tile behind the platform which has no signal on it
10:35:05  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: yes.
10:35:15  <Eddi|zuHause> just put signals there, and everything will be fine
10:35:19  <liq3> The train that reaches the path signal waits for the train to leave, instead of using the bypass.
10:35:24  <liq3> where?
10:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> immediately behind the platform
10:35:42  <liq3> they're 1 tile behind it...
10:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they must be 0 tiles behind it
10:36:07  <liq3> let's find out. ;p
10:36:22  <peter1138> Weird seeing green signals everywhere...
10:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember trying to fix this shortcoming, but i didn't get anywhere
10:37:12  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: nope still happens.
10:37:15  <liq3> Less frequently though.
10:38:02  <liq3> Pre-signals don't have the problem. :p
10:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: yes, because there is a signal _before_ the platform which adds the pathfinder penalty, not _behind_
10:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause> which is, again, a workaround. not a fix
10:39:01  <liq3> actually
10:39:17  <liq3> it's because the combo/exit signals are red, so they immediately choose the only green signal, I'm pretty sure
10:39:31  <liq3> though admittedly that's probably implemented with penalties.
10:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> "lastred" penalty
10:40:17  <liq3> does OpenTTD have a way to show FPS?
10:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no
10:40:35  <liq3> ...really?
10:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a hugely relevant figure for... anything
10:41:08  <peter1138> It's fixed at 33 fps.
10:41:08  <argoneus> just make a fps counter with path signals
10:41:34  <liq3> peter1138: It drops below that in same games. Want to know what it's dropping to.
10:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like you die from low fps
10:41:40  <peter1138> Seconds are extended if necessary.
10:41:48  <liq3> I'm also guessing that this game doesn't use GPU acceleration?
10:42:04  <argoneus> I think SDL does
10:42:10  <liq3> SDL blitting doesn't.
10:42:11  <Eddi|zuHause> 2D acceleration
10:42:16  <liq3> iirc.
10:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the blitting doesn't, but pushing the framebuffer onto the screen does
10:42:43  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't mean it's using the GPU. :p
10:43:07  <liq3> I noticed because when I zoom out on PZG2013, it lags, but GPU is still only 25%.
10:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: ever tried to use the game on a machine that _actually_ doesn't have 2D acceleration and draws the screen pixel by pixel?
10:43:16  <liq3> doesn't lag when zoomed in.
10:43:29  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: I've made programs that do that. I can imagine the fractional FPS.
10:43:40  <peter1138> It slowed down because there is FUCK LOADS of stuff to draw.
10:43:52  <liq3> peter1138: Odd it only used 25% of my GPU to draw all that.
10:44:02  <peter1138> It used your CPU to draw it.
10:44:09  <liq3> And there's the problem. :P
10:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: the framebuffer stays the same size, so GPU usage does not depend on zoom level
10:44:22  <peter1138> Nope, it's a 2D game.
10:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause> only on window size
10:44:56  <liq3> I'm pretty sure 2d games benefit from GPU acceleration too. :/
10:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:45:06  <peter1138> There have been attempts at using 3D accelerated blitter, however it works out slower due to the sheer amount of stuff to be drawn.
10:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have only 2^n sized sprites
10:45:26  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, pretty sure that limitation is long gone :)
10:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: people tried making opengl blitters before, they usually turned out slower than what we already have
10:46:13  <liq3> "blitters" >.>
10:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it's what it's called... i didn't invent the word
10:47:08  <liq3> ...I just looked up the word Blitter on wiki... ugh
10:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: basically you throw a large number of sprites on it, and it tries to figure out what's drawn in front of what
10:49:07  <liq3> what version of SDL does OpenTTD use?
10:49:16  <peter1138> 1.2
10:49:18  <liq3> right.
10:49:45  <liq3> Ah well, I imagine proper GPU usage would fix the slow downs, but I doubt it's worth anyone's time to code it.
10:49:52  <__ln__> liq3: do you intend to say something about SDL and OS X?
10:49:52  <peter1138> It wouldn't.
10:50:13  <peter1138> Anyway, you run into the issue of colour mapping.
10:50:15  <liq3> Nah, just found a reddit article that says SDL 2.0 uses the GPU.
10:51:29  <peter1138> And we do some palette animation too.
10:51:46  <liq3> hrm
10:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> palette animation is a lost concept, i'm afraid :p
10:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> like modern GPUs dropping 8bpp acceleration and stuff
10:52:46  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, paletted texture support is fading out, iirc.
10:53:20  <peter1138> Support for the EXT_paletted_texture extension has been dropped by the major GL vendors. If you really need paletted textures on new hardware, you may use shaders to achieve that effect.
10:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: so in all likelyhood, if you port blitting to the GPU, you have to drop a lot of features
10:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> or it will stop working in the near future
10:53:53  <peter1138> I think if you did it's an all-or-nothing change.
10:54:02  <liq3> heh.
10:54:21  <liq3> It only really affects people that make 1000+ train maps anyway.
10:54:29  <peter1138> liq3, not really
10:54:41  <liq3> ...Right, I forget I have a good GPU
10:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> on 1000+ train maps you have different issues than GPU acceleration
10:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the 1000+ sprites that trains add make virtually no difference
10:55:26  <Eddi|zuHause> compared to the 1 million trees
10:55:54  <liq3> lol.
10:57:13  <Jinassi> animations make a huge impact
10:57:18  <peter1138> If it really lags though, you can try dropping your max zoom in level. If that improves it, edit the sprite cache size. Or something.
10:57:23  <peter1138> Palette animation does, yeah.
10:58:08  <Jinassi> we tested running server with grf that have the option to turn off the palette animations an it worked wonders on load
10:58:26  <peter1138> ...
10:58:34  <peter1138> Palette animation is a game option, not a GRF option.
10:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a setting for that, you know
10:59:00  <liq3> doubling the sprite cache seemed to have helped. Hard to tell without a FPS counter tho.
10:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the (dedicated) server throws all that stuff out
10:59:52  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should invest in dynamic sprite cache allocation
11:00:47  <peter1138> On a sane OS, if you allocate tons of sprite cache memory, it won't actually be allocated unless it's used.
11:00:54  <peter1138> Not sure about Windows.
11:02:17  <Jinassi> It reserves memory and if you do not have enough memory to be allocated for more clients it reminds you it cannot allocated given size and lowers it.
11:02:25  <liq3> ...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/
11:02:33  <liq3> (millions?)
11:03:04  <liq3> CPUs just aren't good at rendering graphics. :/
11:03:27  <peter1138> triangles are not sprites.
11:03:34  <liq3> Yes they are. How do you think the GPU textures them?
11:03:43  <liq3> They're actually more complicated....
11:03:44  <peter1138> ...
11:03:49  <peter1138> triangles are triangles.
11:04:11  <peter1138> Textures are mapped to a complete mesh.
11:04:15  <liq3> You're really claiming 2d sprites would demand more GPU power than a 10,000+ triangle textured 3d model?
11:06:16  <peter1138> 1) There's several thousand sprites loaded. Most 3D games get away with reusing a smaller number of textures
11:06:46  <peter1138> 2) There's still CPU time involved in telling the GPU what to do
11:07:09  <liq3> You load all the sprites into the VRAM, and then the CPU is just telling the GPU where to put them. :/
11:07:10  <peter1138> That's mostly because the game architecture isn't designed for the way 3D stuff works
11:07:45  <liq3> I think. I haven't done gfx programming recently.
11:08:02  <liq3> Yeh. i get that.
11:08:10  <liq3> I don't even think it's worth changing it over.
11:08:23  <peter1138> In OTTD, not everything is drawn every frame
11:08:52  <peter1138> With 3D acceleration, you either need to do that or faff about with some magic.
11:09:04  <liq3> I'm pretty sure you can just not draw certain things.
11:10:06  <peter1138> You could probably use a PBO or whatever the current least-deprecated method is.
11:10:24  <liq3> Shaders is the current method.
11:10:35  <liq3> I'm pretty sure even PBOs are out dated.
11:10:55  <peter1138> Shaders don't replace PBOs
11:10:58  <liq3> hrm.
11:11:04  <peter1138> Shaders replace a particular use of PBOs though.
11:11:05  <liq3> Yeh i dunno. I haven't done it in ages.
11:11:14  <liq3> Ah. Might be PBOs + shaders then.
11:11:17  <peter1138> You're thinking of things like bloom.
11:11:28  <liq3> Nah I'm thinking of drawing methods in opengl.
11:11:36  <liq3> Direct got removed ages ago.
11:11:50  <liq3> There was another one, and then another. I think PBO was the fastest? Don't remember.
11:12:10  <planetmaker> liq3, if you know your stuff around, it surely is a nice challenge to improve on the previous incarnation of the OpenGL blitter? :)
11:12:26  <planetmaker> we can be convinced, if things are backed up by actual profiling data
11:12:32  <liq3> I don't. I've done like a single tutorial on opengl. xD
11:12:50  <liq3> I'd have to learn it all again. :D
11:12:55  <peter1138> Ah, and expert then.
11:13:12  <liq3> Hey, I've made 2d programs in opengl. ;<
11:13:26  <peter1138> 12:02 < liq3> ...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern  games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/
11:13:45  <peter1138> I'm glad you are able to substantiate that based on your extensive ability in opengl.
11:15:49  <peter1138> Every time a tile is drawn, there is a function called that determines what should be drawn, and adds to a list of sprites. This itself can take quite some CPU time.
11:16:11  <planetmaker> and couldn't be done by gpu :)
11:16:15  <peter1138> Of course, because not every tile is drawn all the time, that's alleviated.
11:16:50  <peter1138> It's not something you can even speed up with VBOs.
11:17:39  <peter1138> You'd need to keep state on exactly what was drawn last time to know if you need to update the VBO.
11:18:08  <liq3> peter1138: about polygon counts...
11:18:18  <peter1138> liq3, sprites are not polygons.
11:18:26  <liq3> yes they are
11:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they are also textures
11:19:07  <peter1138> No, sprites are not polygons.
11:19:24  <peter1138> Sprites are textures.
11:20:20  <argoneus> aren't all the sprites drawn to a buffer
11:20:23  <argoneus> which is then drawn all at once
11:20:27  <argoneus> instead of drawing sprites one by one
11:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and liq3 wants to change that
11:20:52  <peter1138> Yes, that's doing the drawing with the CPU.
11:21:12  <argoneus> polygons don't exist in 2d
11:21:15  <argoneus> sprites don't exist in 3d
11:21:15  <argoneus> :<
11:21:45  <peter1138> textures exist in 3d, they're pretty much the same thing.
11:21:54  <argoneus> can textures be animated?
11:22:26  <peter1138> Generally you just use multiple textures for that.
11:22:36  <argoneus> but with sprites
11:22:39  <argoneus> you can have sprite sheets
11:22:40  <argoneus> no?
11:22:43  <argoneus> with animations
11:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the game uses two types of animation
11:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> palette animation that exchanges all pixels of one colour with another colour
11:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and sprite animation which just changes which sprite is drawn
11:23:35  <peter1138> Oh, yeah, you can use a larger texture and just map the bit you want onto the object, though I imagine that's not used much these days.
11:24:10  <argoneus> oh :<
11:24:15  <peter1138> Ok, so we can use shaders to implement palette animation. That does mean we have to redraw the whole scene every frame.
11:24:42  <peter1138> I would suggest changing to an event-based model.
11:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: may as well just make the whole game 3D then :p
11:26:06  <peter1138> Split the scenery up into chunks, each chunk is a display list (or whatever the latest least deprecated feature is now)
11:26:31  <peter1138> When a tileloop is processed and a tile changes, update that chunk.
11:26:40  <peter1138> Then you can just render the chunks
11:26:44  <peter1138> Then...
11:26:49  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, exactly.
11:27:32  <liq3> sorry, playing a game, talk later.
11:27:43  <argoneus> dat cop out
11:27:45  <peter1138> Ok, expert.
11:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause> what would we ever do without expert
11:28:07  <Eddi|zuHause> s
11:28:14  <argoneus> anyway
11:28:23  <argoneus> if I write up some sort of tutorial, can I get some constructive feedback from you guys?
11:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> like every newspaper that employs "terror experts" these days
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11:29:35  <argoneus> hm, there is a tutorial
11:29:38  <argoneus> but it's rather lengthy
11:31:21  <peter1138> Hmm, did the signal UI default to only path signals yet?
11:31:50  <argoneus> when?
11:31:57  <peter1138> That was a question.
11:32:11  <argoneus> I know
11:32:16  <argoneus> but you said "did it do X yet"
11:32:21  <argoneus> and I
11:32:25  <argoneus> m wondering how long ago you mean
11:32:29  <argoneus> by yet
11:32:30  <peter1138> Ever.
11:32:45  <argoneus> doesn't it default now?
11:33:11  <peter1138> Hmm, I think it can only show all signals.
11:33:46  <argoneus> ohh, like that
11:33:51  <argoneus> that no other signal is available?
11:34:48  <planetmaker> peter1138, it shows all signals. But there's a setting to cycle through path signals or all signals when ctrl+clicking
11:35:50  <peter1138> Hmm, default bus doesn't have enough power to reach top speed.
11:35:58  <peter1138> (Foster MKII Superbus)
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11:36:12  <V453000> realistic acceleration for RVs doesnt make sense in general
11:36:13  <peter1138> Wonder where those default power values came from...
11:36:28  <planetmaker> peter1138, I believe they were made up from thin air
11:37:02  <peter1138> V453000, how so?
11:37:27  <V453000> RVs are no trains, they need to slow down on hills, they need to slow down in curves etc
11:37:43  <V453000> if they dont do that, there is nothing interesting about them, they dont have any problem to solve
11:37:43  <peter1138> Huh?
11:37:59  <V453000> their slowing in curves with realistic acceleation is almost none
11:38:06  <V453000> uphill is similar
11:38:10  <V453000> even with 10%
11:38:30  <V453000> vs. the slow acceleration
11:38:45  <V453000> RVs have no means to solve the bad acceleration, the player cant do anything about it or invent a method to improve that
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11:40:25  <argoneus> so
11:40:33  <argoneus> do PBS let trains reserve paths until the next signal or until the destination?
11:41:06  <peter1138> Signal, in general.
11:41:09  <planetmaker> trains decide on a new path when they reach any junction
11:41:19  <planetmaker> and reserve paths at signals
11:42:39  <peter1138> I don't think anything should be using the term "PBS" though.
11:43:18  <peter1138> I'm so glad we removed the old PBS before release :D
11:43:24  <planetmaker> :)
11:44:21  <peter1138> planetmaker, was that before your time?
11:44:32  <planetmaker> yup
11:44:48  <planetmaker> I started between 0.4.5 and 0.5.3
11:45:34  <planetmaker> but really only got into things when 0.5.3 was around
11:46:23  <peter1138> It was "funny" because we'd waited so long (well, it seemed like it at the time) to have PBS in, and it was there for a while... then we decided to remove it fairly soon before release. Just like that, heh.
11:46:50  <peter1138> It was pretty broken though, and never fixed the two-way station problem.
11:47:19  <planetmaker> I heard similar a few times. But I actually never  tested that first incarnation
11:47:35  <peter1138> It was beautiful when it worked...
11:47:45  <peter1138> No where near as elegant as path signals are though.
11:48:25  <peter1138> It broke the promise that trains would never crash if you didn't mess with layout.
11:48:59  <planetmaker> :)
11:49:15  <planetmaker> that's basically what killed it, I guess
11:49:49  <peter1138> That would be what V453000 calls a BAD FEATURE
11:50:03  <planetmaker> :P
12:00:27  <liq3> peter1138: Games frequently have character models with 50,000+ polys. :/
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12:18:18  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: but maybe like 100 textures
12:18:40  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: the entire thing is textured. The GPU has to map the texture to the 50k+ polygons in '3d' space.
12:18:51  <liq3> There is no way drawing a few thousand 2d sprites is harder. :P
12:19:03  <argoneus> it depends on your engine
12:19:12  <liq3> Yes. I'm talking about properly coded GPU usage.
12:19:44  <V453000> why are you guys discussing this when openttd will never get 3D engine anyway :D
12:20:01  <liq3> peter1138 and Eddi|zuHause were insisting OpenGL wouldn't fix the lag problems. :<
12:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: but there are still only 100 different textures
12:20:13  <argoneus> what lag problems
12:20:14  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of 10000
12:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> or 100000
12:20:28  <liq3> argoneus: load up PGZ2013 and zoom all the way out. :p
12:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that is 3 orders of magnitude
12:20:47  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: it's really irrelevant to a GPU :/
12:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> no it's not
12:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a bottleneck getting all this data to the GPU and stuff
12:21:34  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: You can probably just load every single sprite into VRAM when you load a save.
12:21:49  <argoneus> can you really
12:22:05  <argoneus> you do realize
12:22:08  <liq3> Even YETI is only 110mb, and that's 32bpp.
12:22:10  <argoneus> when you have any sort of animation in 3d
12:22:17  <argoneus> it's not the textures that are changing
12:22:20  <argoneus> but with sprites
12:22:23  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: but that is 110 COMPRESSED mb
12:22:25  <argoneus> you have a different sprite for every animation
12:22:36  <liq3> argoneus: Yes. There's ways to implement sprite animation with 3d hardware.
12:22:36  <argoneus> so for every possible sprite, and every possible animation it has
12:22:43  <argoneus> you'd need to store that on your video memory
12:23:15  <peter1138> I've got enough video memory.
12:23:24  <peter1138> But I'd have to stop playing it on my laptop.
12:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: again, there HAVE been opengl implementations, they ALL turned out SLOWER than what we have now.
12:24:30  <liq3> argoneus: You'd probably have sprite sheets (a single texture you only draw some of), or individual textuser for each sprite frame.
12:24:44  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: how were they implemented?
12:25:01  <Eddi|zuHause> because the CPU is busier shoving all this data onto the GPU than it would be just handling it by itself
12:25:14  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: look it up?
12:25:32  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: it's all buried in the forum somewhere, or the chat logs
12:26:13  <argoneus> I can't believe people are complaining about the performance of a game that runs on a pentium II
12:26:25  <peter1138> coo, 2008 :)
12:26:34  <liq3> I don't really care, it's just a minor annoyance.
12:27:06  <argoneus> I mean
12:27:09  <argoneus> this game runs on a fucking phone
12:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> phones nowadays have way more processing power than a pentium II
12:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> although when i first got TT, my 386-SX 25 had problems with more than like 10 trains...
12:29:31  <Eddi|zuHause> when i got to 80 trains (maximum), it was like 0.5 fps
12:31:05  <peter1138> Bet you wish it had GPU acceleration.
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12:31:11  <peter1138> *wished
12:31:42  <Pikkaphone> if wishes were fishes we'd all get wet
12:31:55  <peter1138> Possibly the 32bpp remapping algorithm could be done with shaders now.
12:32:09  <peter1138> That's a lot of new code though.
12:32:32  <peter1138> Someone will want particle effects...
12:32:37  <liq3> lol.
12:32:47  <liq3> Make the smoke particle effects. particle effects for the brakes. :D
12:33:28  <peter1138> Then someone will complain that it's OpenGL instead of DirectX11...
12:34:08  <peter1138> There's a game I play where they have JUST updated the engine to use DirectX9 and Shader Model 2 shaders.
12:34:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: one of the monkey island games had a "fishing well"
12:34:32  <peter1138> Previously it was DirectX 8 and presumably whatever shaders that supports.
12:34:32  <Pikkaphone> surely making openttd full 3d would be really easy to do?
12:34:37  <liq3> OpenGL is better just for being cross platform.
12:34:51  <Pikkaphone> just map the pixels to a 3d engine
12:34:51  <liq3> Pikkaphone: not likely. I'm going to check the source code soon just to find out tho.
12:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: yes, just install train fever.
12:34:55  <peter1138> And so... there are now complaints from people whose computers can no longer run it.
12:35:06  <peter1138> Because they're using 2004 graphics cards that worked fine before.
12:35:08  <liq3> Pikkaphone: also, if you mean 3d models, that would be huge amounts of work.
12:35:24  <peter1138> Pikkaphone, we got a live one :D
12:35:41  <Pikkaphone> yikes :)
12:35:58  <argoneus> make openttd support 3d glasses
12:36:07  <argoneus> I want to see trains in my room
12:36:17  <planetmaker> asking for oculus rift support is an old feature request ;)
12:36:21  <peter1138> 3D glasses for a game with orthogonal projection...
12:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, about a week old :p
12:36:38  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, nah, surely several months
12:36:40  <argoneus> planetmaker: was that a "hehe xD" request
12:36:42  <argoneus> or was it serious
12:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: didn't see that
12:37:15  <Pikkaphone> if it was andythenorth making it, hard to tell
12:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> [Freitag, 23. August 2013] [23:43:16] <__ln__>  will there be support for oculus rift?
12:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so over a year even
12:38:50  <Pikkaphone> 3ds port?
12:39:15  <peter1138> Bin it.
12:39:27  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, 16 months:
12:40:29  <argoneus> lol
12:41:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if i paid more than 10 seconds of attention to that thread back then :p
12:41:26  <planetmaker> I did as long as I typed the answer. Maybe 15 seconds?
12:43:18  <V453000> just shows what kind of idiots visits tt-f :D
12:44:01  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that certainly wasn't in my mind anymore when i learned what an oculus rift actually is
12:44:41  <planetmaker> I recon oculus rift was a thing already then. dunno anymore, though
12:44:58  <argoneus> when oculus rift started being a thing
12:45:01  <argoneus> it was all porn and horror
12:45:06  <argoneus> is openttd either of those?
12:45:12  <V453000> yes both
12:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> certainly
12:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i always get scared when PBI plays this explosion sound
12:46:12  <planetmaker> sure
12:46:31  <Pikkaphone> boom
12:46:44  <planetmaker> the horror of glitching sprites, wrong stats and the porn of long vehicles uncensored version
12:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that is clearly one of the worst BAD FEATURES of all times :p
12:47:19  <V453000> trains going in and out of tunnels
12:47:25  <planetmaker> omg!
12:47:27  <V453000> quite explicit
12:47:39  <V453000> even worse, some of them are slugs
12:48:52  <peter1138> if your trains glitch going into tunnels, your offsets are probably wrong
12:49:02  <peter1138> or you're using zbase, although that's just the same reason really.
12:49:22  <argoneus> zbase is art
12:49:22  <Eddi|zuHause> or these czech tunnels
12:49:26  <argoneus> oi
12:49:39  <peter1138> zbase is crap sorry
12:49:40  <Pikkaphone>
12:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> "art" does not automatically mean "good"
12:49:59  <Pikkaphone> can anyone be bothered giving the real answer?
12:50:19  <peter1138> Pikkaphone, no
12:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: planes are special cased to ignore mail
12:50:34  <Pikkaphone> I know that, eddi
12:50:49  <Pikkaphone> fair enough, peeter
12:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the real answer?
12:50:58  <Pikkaphone> yes
12:51:14  <peter1138> Allocating 2.00GiB of spritecache failed...
12:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, then i'm certainly not bothered :)
12:51:20  <peter1138> Hmm, but it's only set to 512 :S
12:51:38  <Pikkaphone> zbase is what it is
12:51:44  <planetmaker> peter1138, I think the limit for it in OpenTTD is that, 512M?
12:52:01  <planetmaker> hm... but why 2G then?
12:52:01  <Pikkaphone> as a starting point for 32bpp, it's fine
12:52:01  <peter1138> planetmaker, I didn't ask it to allocate 2GB.
12:52:02  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's multiplied by 4 for 32bpp?
12:52:10  <peter1138> planetmaker, does it x4?
12:52:19  <planetmaker> peter1138, what? zbase? yes.
12:52:26  <planetmaker> it has 1x, 2x and 4x sprites
12:52:31  <peter1138> That's not what I aksed.
12:52:34  <peter1138> Or asked.
12:52:36  <argoneus> do openttd sprites make heavy use of the alpha channel?
12:52:42  <argoneus> for transparency
12:52:44  <peter1138> spritecache * 4
12:52:48  <peter1138> not 4x zoom :S
12:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: too little data.
12:52:56  <liq3> planetmaker: does the blitter draw the entire scene and then just pass it to the framebuffer?
12:53:08  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: too little data?
12:53:12  <peter1138> argoneus, every single ground tile has alpha.
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12:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: most sprites have transparent pieces
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12:53:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's either 0% or 100%, rarely anything in between
12:53:48  <argoneus> how is transparency done in ttd? alpha channel or some solid color?
12:53:53  <peter1138> Nearly all vehicle sprites have alpha.
12:53:54  <argoneus> that is then filtered out
12:54:01  <Pikkaphone> alpha in 32bpp
12:54:09  <Pikkaphone> the other in 8bpp
12:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> in 8bpp mode -> solid colour
12:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> in 32bpp mode -> alpha
12:54:26  <argoneus> I bet you use magenta
12:54:33  <argoneus> because everyone uses magenta for some reason
12:54:48  <peter1138> no, blue, but the palette is arbitrary.
12:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's usually represented as blue, but essentially it's colour index 0
12:54:59  <peter1138> zbase recolours look shit too :(
12:55:14  <argoneus> so 0 0 255 is transparent always?
12:55:18  <V453000> I have no idae how to make recolours in 32bpp
12:55:24  <peter1138> no, only index 0
12:55:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no
12:55:29  <Pikkaphone> I have an idea
12:55:34  <planetmaker> !
12:55:35  <argoneus> oh
12:55:36  <Pikkaphone> but I don't do it
12:55:36  <argoneus> pallete
12:55:36  <argoneus> right
12:55:43  <argoneus> palette*
12:55:45  <V453000> myeah
12:56:01  <V453000> I would like to have at least some details CC-able
12:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you need some overlay mask
12:56:27  <peter1138> V453000, basically you make a sprite containing just the recolour parts
12:56:41  <planetmaker> V453000, look at the water in pota-ghat :)
12:56:42  <Pikkaphone> is fairly well documented, innit?
12:56:45  <peter1138> then you make it 8bpp and use the recolour indices
12:57:11  <peter1138> then you adjust brightness on the 32bpp sprite underneath the mask to adjust brightness of the recolour part
12:57:15  <peter1138> simple ;)
12:57:27  <V453000> ._.
12:57:28  <V453000> k
12:57:33  <Pikkaphone> the alternative is making separate sprites for each cc, which is a silly idea
12:57:40  <V453000> XD
12:57:45  <V453000> grfsize x16 ftw
12:57:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, NUTS!
12:57:46  <Pikkaphone> snowballs the size of the grf
12:57:49  <peter1138> Pikkaphone, very silly
12:58:00  <peter1138> Pikkaphone, and the hue is wrong!
12:58:05  <peter1138> Pikkaphone, and it doesn't support RGB recolours!
12:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: well, there are grfs out there that are 50% recolour masks :p
12:58:17  <V453000> fuck RGB recolours where did they go
12:58:22  <peter1138> i have them here
12:58:26  <peter1138> did you want them?
12:58:26  <V453000> want
12:58:35  <V453000> amazing feature
12:58:45  <planetmaker> Pikkaphone, can one actually query the CC instead of the companyID?
12:59:10  <Pikkaphone> yes planetmaker
12:59:34  <Pikkaphone> it's how the liveries in pineapple work
12:59:47  <planetmaker> oh
12:59:53  <Pikkaphone> also, eg, the boxcars in nars
13:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: did you change the colour names to livery names? :)
13:00:22  <Pikkaphone> nope
13:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anyone ever used that feature, since it was introduced...
13:00:41  <peter1138> damn zbase vehicles being too big :S
13:01:31  <peter1138> ?
13:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the one company colour GRF out there was never updated to touch the colour names
13:02:36  <Pikkaphone> also the hue is *different*, not wrong. :p
13:05:54  <Pikkaphone> I certainly wouldn't describe zbase's colour mapping as 'right'
13:06:04  <peter1138> No, it's not.
13:06:30  <peter1138> I suspect it falls foul of just using one of the remap colours.
13:07:28  <peter1138> And just like good CC with 8bpp, you need to use all of them to make good 32bpp CC.
13:07:48  <peter1138> This is probably quite tricky to do in a sane way with a 3D renderer though.
13:08:20  <peter1138> It doesn't help that the CC elements in zBase are really really chunky.
13:09:59  <Flygon> Is there any TBRS set that's actually compatible with UKRS?
13:10:42  <Pikkaphone> what's a tbrs?
13:10:53  <Flygon> Total Bridge Renewal Set
13:11:09  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of "compatible" do you mean?
13:11:13  <peter1138> What makes a bridge set compatible with a train set?
13:11:32  <Flygon> Oh, UK Road Se
13:11:36  <Flygon> Sorry, I forgot ambiguity x.x
13:11:44  <Flygon> Eddi: Asthetically
13:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there are TBRS versions for a handful of road sets buried in the forum somewhere
13:12:36  <Flygon> Yeah, I've been trying to find x.x
13:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but quite honestly, bridge sets caused me to stick with the default roads.
13:13:24  <Flygon> Ach x.x
13:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> they're not terrible, and consistency is more important to me.
13:13:28  <Flygon> I never liked the default roads
13:13:43  <Flygon> Long story short... FINALLY want to do a game with the Dutch road furnature
13:14:18  <Flygon> If I can't get that working tho, may's well use the US Road Set
13:17:05  <Flygon> Closest I can find is a modified PCX... but I don't know how to recompile the GRFs for OTTD
13:17:16  <Flygon> And I doubt the Ragnarok Online recompilers I have are very useful
13:17:58  <Flygon> Eh, screwit
13:18:01  <Flygon> America time
13:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec -d and grfcodec -e
13:18:32  <Eddi|zuHause> if the offsets are the same, it shouldn't be hard
13:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure you change the GRFID
13:19:13  <argoneus> you guys are making me to actually want to try make a newgrf
13:19:24  <argoneus> but I can't into drawing or modelling
13:19:27  <argoneus> :<
13:19:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't either. hasn't stopped me.
13:20:06  <Flygon> Aw man
13:20:14  <Flygon> Now I feel guilty for never finishing the Comeng
13:20:41  <Flygon> Been meaning to redo this in voxel form
13:20:44  <Flygon> Because like...
13:20:47  <Flygon> Melbourne has EMUs too :U
13:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> use pixeltool
13:21:50  <Flygon>
13:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> if that is what the adress is...
13:22:22  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: what kind of newgrfs did you make?
13:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the kind where trains have overlength and many turning angles
13:22:48  <argoneus> also is pixeltool some actual software or do you just mean make pixels
13:23:01  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: oh you make NARS?
13:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: find it in the forum
13:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no
13:23:31  <argoneus> is it not in bananas?
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13:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause>
13:24:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not released
13:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> due to... missing graphics :p
13:24:48  <Flygon> Arf, I need to work on being able to visualize 3D in my head x.x
13:24:52  <Flygon> I need to get myself some lego bricks
13:25:17  <argoneus> Game running cost (AS): =WENN(ODER((traction_type="Electric");(traction_type="Electric/Narrow");(AC9="3rd Rail");(AC9="Dual Power")); (($AM4*pow(($N9/$AO4);$AP4))*pow(($O9/$AO5);$AP5));
13:25:21  <argoneus> lol
13:25:28  <argoneus> is this some excel formula
13:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but where did you find that?
13:25:57  <argoneus> in the thing you linked?
13:26:08  <argoneus> I was looking for screenshots :<
13:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause> is that shown ingame?
13:26:17  <argoneus> no
13:26:19  <argoneus> I'm at work
13:26:24  <argoneus> I can't play ttd
13:26:59  <argoneus> hm
13:27:09  <argoneus> seems like pixel art is more about calculating than drawing
13:27:58  <V453000> no just being a fucking liar and pretending there are shapes that the eyes see, but the shapes dont exist in the image
13:28:06  <V453000> all it takes really :)
13:28:27  <argoneus> so I don't need to be able to draw realistic faces to make a pixel art car?
13:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
13:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it may even be counter productive
13:29:42  <V453000> yeah
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13:29:45  <V453000> you totally dont need to do that
13:29:48  <V453000> I cant do that for shit
13:30:13  <argoneus> so for one train
13:30:15  <argoneus> you need
13:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus:
13:30:21  <argoneus> 4 sprites?
13:30:25  <V453000> 8
13:30:30  <argoneus> up, down, diagonal, symmetry?
13:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> or 24 :)
13:30:41  <V453000> well usually 5 then
13:30:43  <argoneus> 5 then
13:30:54  <juzza1> 10.5
13:31:02  <V453000> up, down, side, diagonal, other diagonal
13:31:06  <V453000> for non-symmetric trains
13:31:06  <argoneus> looks nice Eddi|zuHause
13:31:16  <argoneus> can you draw a human bod
13:31:18  <argoneus> body*
13:31:19  <argoneus> ?
13:31:55  <V453000>
13:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i did not draw those vehicles, oberhÃŒmer did. but he didn't finish all vehicles. the unfinished one are just coloured boxes
13:32:35  <V453000> oberhumer draws terribly
13:32:49  <V453000> nutracks are something so ugly that it doesnt have equal
13:33:27  <argoneus> that slug
13:33:28  <argoneus> has nice shading
13:33:41  <argoneus> wait
13:33:44  <argoneus> so when you guys do pixel art
13:33:49  <argoneus> you don't make a large picture which you then resize
13:33:53  <argoneus> you make a small picture and zoom in?
13:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that image crashes the browser
13:34:12  <V453000> obviously, yes, you draw with 1600% zoom
13:34:19  <V453000> or around that
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13:34:45  <V453000> it is quite small Eddi
13:34:45  <V453000> got a lot bigger ones
13:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not about the size
13:35:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i can view it, but when i try to zoom, it crashes
13:35:21  <V453000> doesnt crash my browser
13:35:26  <V453000> ah
13:35:29  <V453000> well I didnt try that
13:37:17  <argoneus> try this picture
13:37:22  <argoneus>
13:37:39  <V453000> gay
13:37:55  <V453000>
13:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that's supposed to be
13:38:21  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: I dont understand what it is supposed to be -> it is gay
13:38:27  <argoneus> are you using linux
13:38:46  <V453000> NO
13:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that just looks terrible, does not crash :p
13:38:51  <V453000> :)
13:38:54  <argoneus> oh
13:38:57  <argoneus> on linux
13:39:00  <argoneus> it starts eating your memory
13:39:04  <argoneus> then you get thrashing
13:39:06  <argoneus> and then X crashes
13:39:17  <argoneus> at least it did a while ago, maybe they fixed it
13:39:20  <Eddi|zuHause> only if you do it wrong
13:39:23  <peter1138> argoneus, if you resized a large image down, it would not be pixel art.
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13:40:25  <argoneus> but that slug thing
13:40:26  <argoneus> it has nice shading
13:40:29  <argoneus> I don't understand shading
13:40:30  <argoneus> :(
13:40:44  <argoneus> is there a consensus where the light comes from in openttd?
13:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the consensus is that different people have different consensuses
13:41:09  <peter1138> Yes, it comes from the sky.
13:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and the consensus of the other people is always wrong
13:41:16  <argoneus> b-b-but
13:41:30  <argoneus> so people shade their things from different directions?
13:41:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but mostly it comes either from the right, or from the lower right
13:41:54  <planetmaker> 4:30h to 5:00 is the usual light direction. But it differs somewhat, depending on where you look
13:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> except when it doesn't
13:42:03  <peter1138> Let's make everything out of voxels.
13:42:11  <peter1138> Then apply real-time lighting.
13:42:16  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it's changed purely for artistic reasons
13:42:17  <planetmaker> but that direction usually gives best look
13:42:50  <liq3> ew voxel.s
13:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there was something recently about one of MB's train sheds being "wrong"
13:42:59  <peter1138> cubicals?
13:42:59  <argoneus> okay
13:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> cubicles!
13:43:28  <Eddi|zuHause> cubicles disturb me very
13:43:46  <planetmaker> it reminds me of the missing undo-knob
13:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> undo-knob would be fun... makes you single-step through all tree changes of the past second :p
13:45:46  <peter1138> Yeah, add ^Z, ^X, ^C and ^V support...
13:46:04  <peter1138> copy & paste, for people who don't like playing the game.
13:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause> in all the years i played with patchpacks that had C&P in them, i have never ever once found a use for it...
13:46:34  <liq3> Because making the same terminal station setup over and over is "playing the game".
13:47:10  <peter1138> exactly!
13:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ... or maybe a DIFFERENT terminal station setup?
13:48:19  <Flygon> Ach. What was the option to show how far station's capture population again?
13:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> new challenge: play a game without using the terraforming tool
13:48:26  <Flygon> Ever since I reformatted the desktop, OTTD has been a mess
13:48:38  <Flygon> Forgot the configuration is not stored in where OTTD is stored because... OTTD
13:49:05  <peter1138> Because operating systems are multiuser these days.
13:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: all modern games store data in the personal directory
13:49:23  <Flygon> This shows how often I play modern games, then
13:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't back that up, it's your own problem...
13:49:38  <Flygon> OTTD is the only game that has ever exhibited this behaviour that I've used O_o
13:50:02  <Flygon> And I've often deliberately avoided using those directories since I was a kid anyway x.x
13:50:08  <Flygon> I'm... weird x.x
13:50:27  <Flygon> But, yeah
13:50:32  <Flygon> Forgot how to show the capture graphics
13:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> those directories didn't exist when i was a kid...
13:50:33  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: why would I make a DIFFERENT one? :o
13:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: because the one you had doesn't fit the map?
13:50:52  <Flygon> Either way, I've always found them confusing
13:51:04  <Flygon> To me, all game stuff goes in game directory, not in some unrelated directory :P
13:51:09  <argoneus> where are the times
13:51:19  <argoneus> when you could build a road over someone else's railroad, then delete the road, and railroad was gone too
13:51:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: modern OSes prevent you from changing anything in "the game directory", because viruses and stuff would do that...
13:51:48  <Flygon> ...
13:52:02  <Flygon> And how the heck are they suppose to run practically everything written before 2007?
13:52:13  <argoneus> Flygon: everything modern has config somewhere
13:52:25  <argoneus> appdata, documents, ~/.config ~/.programname
13:52:36  <argoneus> some programs have data in the windows registry!
13:52:37  <peter1138> Flygon, that's why so many shit games need you to run as administrator...
13:52:47  <Flygon> peter1138: Good point
13:52:50  <Flygon> Ach, it just...
13:52:52  <Flygon> It just ruins me
13:53:02  <Flygon> I was never taught this way, never raised this way
13:53:10  <Flygon> And to me, it makes utterly no sense
13:53:10  <argoneus> the reddit client saves data in its own directory
13:53:13  <argoneus> you can see how they did it
13:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: that's a compile option
13:53:38  <argoneus> o-oh
13:53:48  <argoneus> of course it is
13:53:49  <argoneus> fug
13:54:02  <peter1138> There's a reddit client? I just use my webbrowser.
13:54:02  <Eddi|zuHause> or alternatively, where your openttd.cfg is
13:54:22  <argoneus> peter1138: you play ttd in firefox?
13:54:32  <Flygon> And I still can't find the station capture display option x.x
13:54:40  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i assumed he meant the reddit-community's openttd patchpack
13:54:44  <argoneus> Flygon: what is station capture?
13:55:06  <Flygon> Where it shows the blue tiles where the station is being built
13:55:14  <Flygon> And the white tiles where it captures the houses/apartments
13:55:16  <Flygon> Or industry
13:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there's a button in the build station window
13:55:33  <Flygon> ...
13:55:34  <Flygon> ...
13:55:36  <Flygon> Okay, well
13:55:37  <Flygon> I feel dumb.
13:55:44  <argoneus> are you new to the game?
13:55:53  <Flygon> I was trawling everywhere in the advanced settings x.x
13:55:56  <Flygon> New to the game?
13:56:04  <argoneus> yes
13:56:08  <Flygon>
13:56:21  <Flygon> No x3
13:56:23  <Flygon> Just arrogant
13:56:48  <argoneus> that ship what the fuck
13:56:53  <argoneus> is this europa universalis
13:56:58  <argoneus> no.. is this anno?
13:57:11  <Flygon> Nope
13:57:18  <Flygon> I've just got poor taste in asthetics
13:57:32  <argoneus> oh
13:57:33  <argoneus> no
13:57:34  <argoneus> it's ok
13:57:45  * argoneus afk hour
13:59:17  <Flygon> Still find of sad I lost the .sav because I assumed the .savs were in the OpenTTD folder instead of the My Documents folder, hahaha
13:59:20  <Flygon> Over 47 games lost :D
14:00:34  <Eddi|zuHause> just restore it from your extensive backups
14:02:28  <Flygon> I'm an idiot that stores everything on his desktop that would be considered backup worthy then saves the entire desktop :P
14:03:11  <Flygon> I assumed too much over games using the /save/ folder in their root, due to the other games I play usually being AoEII, CivII, or, whatever :B
14:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that would be different if you played AoE III, Civ IV, or, whatever...
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14:04:03  <Flygon> Hated them both
14:04:10  <Flygon> Well, actually, never played IV
14:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and Civ II is not 2007, more like 1997
14:05:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i couldn't get Civ II to run in wine...
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14:05:33  <Flygon> Uhn...
14:05:39  <Flygon> Wait, which Civ II?
14:05:43  <Flygon> There's the MPG and Classic
14:05:46  <Flygon> Linux user?
14:06:05  <Eddi|zuHause> what's MPG?
14:06:11  <Flygon> 32-bit Civ II
14:06:12  <Flygon> Basically
14:06:15  <Flygon> Multiplayer Gold
14:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not that
14:07:59  <Eddi|zuHause> last time i tried, it started up, but quickly sound got corrupted and then it crashed
14:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i probably would get fed up with the ancient game rules within 10 minutes and stop
14:08:52  <Flygon> Eh
14:08:53  <Flygon> I do
14:09:02  <Flygon> That's why I do Alpha Centauri :B
14:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> like when i tried to play freeciv
14:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> let's see whether this new alpha centauri will be good...
14:09:47  <Flygon> I already gave up
14:09:52  <Flygon> On 'Beyond Earth'
14:09:55  <Flygon> Which is annoying
14:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> sounded like it's based on civ5
14:09:57  <Pikka> peter1138, people who don't like playing the game should go and write AIs to play it for them
14:10:05  <Pikka> that's my plan
14:10:08  <Flygon> Because both my Ex and my Father are constantly yabbering on about how it's going to be awesome
14:10:23  <Flygon> But the asthetic direction already has me convinced it'll be multiple explicatives
14:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever... civ5 looked weird like that at first as well
14:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> but i still found it enjoyable
14:11:47  <Flygon> Lack V on my Steam
14:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't play alpha centauri nearly as much as civ2
14:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> which is mainly because my monitor was too dark, and the colour correction disabled itself when switching to 16bit colours
14:13:50  <Flygon> Hmm
14:14:04  <Flygon> It should've been possible to modify the base palette
14:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> running "windowed" mode would have sufficed
14:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but that didn't seem to have been an option back then
14:14:52  <Flygon> I forgot if they've figured out how to modify the game to do that yet
14:15:04  <Flygon> I still gotta figure out IF palette modification is possible
14:15:38  <Flygon> The default palette is awful for modding
14:16:29  <peter1138> I've got V on Steam, but... Civ and Civ 2 were the best.
14:16:49  <peter1138> Maybe I should install Win95 in a VM for Civ 2? :D
14:17:12  <Flygon> Shame I and II'll never get Steamed or GOG'd
14:17:14  <Eddi|zuHause> my civ1 got corrupted at some point because someone tried to patch the german .exe with an english patch
14:17:25  <Flygon> Steam'll never happen because... they lost the source code and borf
14:17:33  <Flygon> And GoG because... GoG
14:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with GoG now?
14:17:46  <peter1138> Hmm...
14:17:51  <peter1138> There's always freeciv? ;(
14:18:52  <Flygon> Eddi: Nothing's wrong with it
14:18:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i played a civ4 mod called "planetfall", which was based on alpha centauri
14:18:59  <Flygon> It's just that I doubt they'll ever release it on GoG
14:19:50  <peter1138> Hmm, I don't appear to have Civ any more :S
14:20:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't, either...
14:21:51  <peter1138> Hmm, I've got civwin!
14:22:10  <peter1138> Which segfaults wine.
14:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i have win 3.11 in dosbox
14:24:15  <peter1138> 8 bit 11 kHz sound effects :D
14:24:42  <Flygon> Man
14:24:46  <Flygon> I hear those figures
14:24:58  <Flygon> And I think of those experiments with the Mega Drive...
14:25:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the... what?
14:25:24  <Flygon> Genesis
14:25:33  <Flygon> 1988 hardware?
14:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> we didn't have any hardware before 1989
14:26:10  <Flygon> Made Sonic the Hedgehog famous?
14:26:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never played that
14:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i've never owned a console
14:26:51  <Flygon> I'll ultra-simplify this
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14:27:17  <Flygon> It was an Amiga that took cartridges and had an FM based sound system (and a DAC) instead of a sample based one
14:27:29  <Flygon> Also it has a Z80 inside it
14:27:43  <Flygon> Alongside the 68k, because... like, it has the letter Z in it
14:27:49  <Flygon> And that's an extremely cool letter
14:28:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never got into amiga either
14:29:56  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, what's the point of this historic excourse?
14:30:04  <Xaroth|Work> <3 Megadrive
14:30:41  <Flygon> Eddi: Long story short, got bored enough to make tracks able to be stuffed through a 1988 computer's DAC :U
14:30:59  <Xaroth|Work> lol
14:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not clicking on that...
14:31:33  <Flygon> You dislike orchistra hits? D:
14:31:39  <Xaroth|Work> Flygon: ever played Rock'n'Roll Racing?
14:31:52  <Flygon> Does it have orchistra hits?
14:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you mean like this "demo scene" that takes stuff rendered on modern computers and shoves it through ancient things like atari 2600?
14:32:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is WAAAAY before my time)
14:32:50  <Xaroth|Work> @Flygon
14:32:53  <Flygon> That implies the demoscene doesn't know about thems procedural generationializationings
14:33:15  <Flygon> Nah, you'd never get stuff like that .wav happening in, say, a Mega Drive demo
14:33:37  <Flygon> Unless it was a wild contest entry anyway, and you don't mind paying for a good bank switcher...
14:33:51  <Flygon> Then again
14:34:04  <Flygon> The machine CAN address 10mbytes of flat ROM without the CD drive or the 32x...
14:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence makes no sense whatsoever
14:34:19  <Jinassi> run this:
14:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> may as well be describing a voodoo ceremony
14:34:45  <Flygon> Xaroth: Sorry for the delay. On a more serious note, yep, I am familiar x3
14:35:02  <Flygon> Also apperantly the show's Finnish dub is brilliantly 90s
14:37:40  <Flygon> Xaroth: I also put this through because I thought it'd be funny
14:39:29  <Flygon> Never had Biker Mice as a kid, either way
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14:58:51  <Flygon> Arf
14:58:55  <Flygon> Sorry for being so... well
14:59:00  <Flygon> Dumb, earlier
14:59:07  <Flygon> Just been one of those evenings x.x
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15:09:05  <argoneus> hello
15:10:35  <Alberth> o/
15:10:57  <planetmaker> \o
15:12:46  <LordAro> /o
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15:16:00  <Alberth> so we lost partially grass stages, apparently, I never noticed :)
15:21:09  <argoneus> o\
15:23:23  <planetmaker> did openttd loose that or just ogfx+landscape?
15:24:02  <planetmaker> actually, only the latter
15:29:48  <Alberth> :O  any idea how that happened?
15:30:09  <Rubidium> obviously my patch to NML
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15:33:17  <Alberth> ah, not in opengfx+landscape itself thus, what I was thinking (and finding quite weird)
15:33:51  <Rubidium> Alberth: well... I'd be amazed if my patch did it ;)
15:34:31  <Alberth> :D
15:34:36  <Rubidium> especially since my patch was after the last nightly
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15:44:18  <Alberth> quak
15:45:04  <frosch123> hai
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15:53:15  <planetmaker> Alberth, probably simply some c&p error in the sprite export scripts or so
15:54:10  <planetmaker> maybe I renamed a layer which I better had not renamed or so
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15:54:24  <planetmaker> (or rename in further places, too)
15:54:24  <peter1138> Doesn't affect TTD graphics ;)
15:55:00  <planetmaker> pöh! :P
15:55:10  <planetmaker> nor actually zbase
15:55:48  <peter1138> might as well
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16:22:47  <Pokka> what did you do?
16:23:17  <peter1138> Ate it.
16:23:27  <Pokka> nom nom nom
16:23:52  <planetmaker> *burp*
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16:25:02  <Pokka>
16:25:13  <Pokka> BAD FEATURES
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16:26:32  *** Pokka is now known as Pikka
16:28:10  <Pikka> "On 12 Nov 1922, 59mph was achieved pulling 65 tons, but the boiler pressure could not be got above 170psi (instead of the designed 200psi) and coal was burnt at the frightening rate of 40lb/mile. A conventional L&YR 4-6-0 could pull 400 tons at the same burn rate. Further runs took place on 13 May 1923, but the results were worse than even a standard 2-4-2 tank engine, and the machine was returned to Armstrong-Whitworth and wri
16:28:10  <Pikka> tten off. "
16:28:21  <Alberth> looks awesome though :)
16:28:46  <Pikka> someone (tm) should make a newgrf containing nothing but hilariously awful experimental vehicles
16:29:36  <V453000> someone already made a newgrf with hilariously awful vehicles, is that enough? :P
16:30:09  <Pikka> I don't know who you mean
16:30:53  <Pinkbeast> Pikka: Mind you, there's no denying the honking great cowling on the back looks cool
16:31:38  <V453000> no nuts
16:32:05  <Pinkbeast> Also would surely qualify
16:32:55  <Pikka> eh, well
16:33:05  <Pikka> at least in TTD terms the Leader is alright
16:33:32  <Pikka> but the ramsey turbine would be slow, heavy, underpowered and very expensive. :D
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16:34:02  <Rubidium> ... and it would be cursing a lot?
16:34:09  <Pikka> yes
16:34:11  <Pinkbeast> There's that mad 6-2-0 Crampton built in an attempt to match the big engines on the broad gauge, too. "Liverpool" ?
16:35:39  <Pikka> 19th century, which is in itself a bad feature :)
16:35:50  <Jinassi> Would ER22 fit into that category?
16:36:21  <Pinkbeast> I had fun with your 19th century stuff even if it's a bad feature. :-P
16:37:27  <Pinkbeast> And that completely impractical Colani design for the USSR
16:38:05  <Pikka> yep
16:38:19  <Pikka> now we just need 'someone' to make the grf
16:38:27  <Pikka> which nobody will want to use anyway :)
16:42:43  <Alberth> ha :p
16:43:42  <V453000> downloaded my first palette file 12.7.2011 at 0:57 :D
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16:47:13  <Alberth> deleted all palettes last August? :)
16:47:39  <V453000> it is 2013 Alberth :D
16:47:43  <V453000> 2011 I started drawing NUTS
16:48:01  <V453000> I mean 2014, not 2012 :P
16:48:05  <V453000> anyway
16:48:11  <Alberth> :D
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16:53:56  <peter1138> DERP
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17:10:02  <Pinkbeast> Oh, Brunel's pneumatic railway! You could have NuImpracticalTracks to go with impractical trains.
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17:32:52  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26945 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:32:45 UTC)
17:32:53  <DorpsGek> -Fix-ish: better scaling of the "cells" in which variety distribution happens for non-square maps (attempt to make reasonably square areas)
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17:37:54  <Alberth> hi hi
17:38:19  <Wolf01> gwkki
17:38:24  <Wolf01> *hello
17:40:10  <Alberth> :D
17:40:23  <Alberth> a case of a moved keyboard :)
17:40:32  <Wolf01> happens :P
17:40:52  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26946 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:40:45 UTC)
17:40:53  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26945): MSVC doesn't seem to have round yet
17:40:58  <Alberth> better than a weird keyboard remapping :)
17:41:21  <Wolf01> such dworak
17:41:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26947 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-02 17:41:36 UTC)
17:41:44  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6122, FS#6125]: textual improvements of the base "translation"
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26948 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-10-02 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> catalan - 2 changes by juanjo
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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17:45:41  <Wolf01> once upon a time, in a office far far away, I inverted the comma and dot keys of a keyboard of a coworker, he didn't notice until one day had to write a difficult password and looked at the keyboard, "I can't explain why the password doesn't work, I'm pressing all the right keys", his face was the most comic thing I've ever seen
17:45:53  <andythenorth> once upon a time
17:46:04  <andythenorth> someone in our office aliased ‘sudo’ to ‘shutdown -h now’
17:46:18  <planetmaker> :D
17:46:20  <Wolf01> that's always the right thing to do
17:46:44  <Wolf01> if you aren't root, you must not do that thing
17:46:56  <planetmaker> hopefully sudo -> sudo shutdown -h now
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17:47:41  <Alberth> ubuntus tend to have user commands for such events :p
17:48:12  <planetmaker> I'm sure it was a bsd like system andy talked about :P
17:49:15  <andythenorth> OS X
17:49:23  <planetmaker> yeah. bsd-like :P
17:49:26  <andythenorth> it was in retaliation for some keyboard key swapping iirc
17:49:30  <andythenorth> these things happen
17:49:48  <planetmaker> honestly, I probably wouldn't notice keyboard key swapping for a long time
17:50:17  <planetmaker> except if you moved f and / or j. Those are the keys with the small bump to find your way without looking
17:50:38  <Alberth> or until you make lots of typos :p
17:50:54  <planetmaker> well :)
17:51:01  <andythenorth> or if I remapped your keys in software
17:51:08  <planetmaker> that's more evil :)
17:51:31  <Wolf01> remapping a key to "ctrl + z"
17:51:57  <andythenorth> also
17:51:59  <andythenorth> what hap?
17:52:04  <andythenorth> in the world of ottd?
17:52:08  <andythenorth> Pikka bob is here?
17:52:18  <Pikka> only sometimes
17:52:24  <andythenorth> NARS 3 done?
17:52:26  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I immediately notice when they change the Y and Z on the keyboard that I use
17:52:41  <Pikka> just finished diseasles
17:52:47  <planetmaker> Rubidium, the key or the mapping? :)
17:52:48  <andythenorth> cabbages?
17:52:57  <Rubidium> planetmaker: *everything*
17:53:01  <Pikka> no wagons of any description yet
17:53:16  <Rubidium> fracking German computers ;)
17:53:25  * andythenorth wonders how much NARS 3 gets pillaged for Iron Horse
17:53:30  <planetmaker> :)
17:53:54  <glx> Rubidium: azerty is worse, you can't write proper french with it :)
17:54:01  <Pikka> Dan was telling me of his plans for forty seven different American Horse rosters
17:54:06  <andythenorth> 58
17:54:13  <andythenorth> 63 even
17:54:14  <planetmaker> the dutch keyboard layout actually is not that bad, but ... well :) azerty is much much worse ;)
17:54:16  <andythenorth> many horse
17:54:20  <Pikka> such horse
17:54:25  <andythenorth> fortunately we are limited by IDs <16k
17:54:28  <andythenorth> how handy
17:54:35  <andythenorth> unless I reused them :P
17:54:35  <planetmaker> took me like 10 minutes to type in my password on a machine with that frigging keyboard layout
17:54:39  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S
17:54:41  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the Dutch keyboard layout, or the layout that is used most often in the Netherlands (BIG difference)
17:54:41  <Pikka> si
17:55:03  <planetmaker> Rubidium, I meant Dutch. Not necessarily 'most used' (dunno which, I guess US)
17:55:11  <Pikka> I will get on with the elecketricks
17:55:13  * andythenorth writes some tests before writing code
17:55:16  <andythenorth> fancy
17:55:18  <andythenorth> TDD
17:55:19  <Pikka> and send it out for comments when locos are done
17:55:20  <andythenorth> not TTD
17:55:58  <Rubidium> planetmaker: ?
17:56:30  <V453000> nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette. got this with photoshop-ttd-dos-noact.act - Photoshop palette DOS, no action colours (768 Bytes) Delete planetmaker, 2011-08-16 17:20
17:56:36  <V453000> is that possible?
17:56:41  <Rubidium> planetmaker: vs
17:57:20  <frosch123> i hate the enter key on us keyboards :)
17:57:24  <frosch123> i always type \
17:57:34  <V453000> me uses that :D
17:57:40  <V453000> 104 key (with low enter)
17:57:59  <V453000> -> I have a cat picture on the \ key
17:58:02  <V453000> it is perfect
17:58:21  <Pikka> V453000, there's a grfcodec switch to tell it you don't care what it thinks of your palette. can that not be used through nmlc?
17:58:30  <planetmaker> yeah, frosch123, same here :)
17:58:37  <peter1138> My "Windows" key has a stylised duck on it...
17:58:39  <V453000> idk Pikka, devzone does it :D
17:58:57  <planetmaker> Pikka, no, that can't
17:59:33  <planetmaker> Pikka, "used through nml" also does not quite cut it. nml does not need grfcodec :)
17:59:39  <peter1138> You have to be careful with palettes. Some programs will "helpfully" remove colours that aren't in the image.
17:59:40  <frosch123> V453000: usally look for something like "disable palette opimisation" or similar
17:59:42  <Pikka> right
17:59:55  <Pikka> sorry :)
18:00:06  <planetmaker> nah, np :)
18:00:08  <V453000> frosch123: but where :D
18:00:14  <planetmaker> in photoshop?
18:00:25  <Pikka> did nmlc inherit grfcodec's list of allowable palettes, or does it only accept the proper ones?
18:00:26  <planetmaker> you're the photoshop user
18:00:27  <V453000> O_O
18:00:40  <andythenorth> V453000: how are you applying the palette?
18:00:43  <planetmaker> Pikka, it has its own definition of palettes. Imported from openttd's code iirc
18:00:45  <frosch123> V453000: i can tell you where to find it in gimp :)
18:01:02  <andythenorth> are you converting to indexed and then just saving png?
18:01:06  <andythenorth> or using save for web?
18:01:11  <V453000> andythenorth: image - mode - indexed image -> load the palette, save
18:01:23  <andythenorth> use save for web, load the palette there, see what the preview is
18:01:24  <V453000> hm didnt think of saving for web
18:01:25  <planetmaker> imported as in copy&paste
18:01:28  <andythenorth> your method should work
18:01:38  <andythenorth> but sfw gives you a better preview in case of fuckups
18:01:45  <andythenorth> sounds like a bad palette
18:01:47  <Pikka> "no action colours" isn't going to be the right palette, though
18:01:54  <andythenorth> my thought too
18:01:56  <Pikka> load the no action colours one, then load the "proper" one
18:02:08  <planetmaker> good spot, Pikka :)
18:02:33  <V453000> but what is the noact palette for then?
18:02:42  <planetmaker> V453000, for removing them from a sprite
18:02:46  <V453000> just to convert colours without act, but save in normal colours with everything?
18:02:48  <V453000> aha
18:02:50  <planetmaker> yup
18:02:56  <V453000> nice, did that already :D
18:03:05  <planetmaker> the final saved file must always be with the full palette
18:03:10  <V453000> aha
18:03:11  <V453000> didnt know
18:03:12  <V453000> thanks :)
18:03:28  <andythenorth> sounds like a useful palette :)
18:03:53  <peter1138> one-way road markers should've been on tile edges :p
18:04:14  <Pikka> <- av8 conversion palette :P
18:04:25  <frosch123> peter1138: signals should have been on tile edges? :p
18:04:30  <peter1138> That toO!
18:05:07  <V453000> 18:03:32 nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette.
18:05:08  <V453000> still :D
18:05:09  <V453000> :(
18:05:28  <Pikka> you broke it
18:05:32  <frosch123> open it with ttdviewer, and check how it looks
18:06:26  <V453000> animates
18:06:41  <V453000> well some things I got rid of
18:06:51  <V453000> fire/lighthouse is there
18:07:18  <V453000> and fizzy drink colour :D
18:08:31  <frosch123> well, if the image is correct, and no colours are swapped or something, you can resave with it
18:08:38  <frosch123> it will then always have a proper palette
18:09:07  <frosch123> ttdviewer does not check for an exact palette, it only uses a heuristic to decide which one is more likely, and then forces it :p
18:09:44  <V453000> I think it works now
18:09:57  <V453000> I opened my other sprites which work, and copypasted the thing in that image
18:10:13  <V453000> one of the fire cycle colours somehow remained, but got rid of that one manually
18:11:55  <V453000> trying again (:
18:12:02  <Sylf> making again
18:12:11  <planetmaker> palettes are a bitch ;)
18:12:34  <V453000> .
18:13:21  <Sylf> XD  bunch of pure white pixel warnings
18:13:32  <V453000> oh fuck off :D forgot about white
18:13:42  <Sylf> but at least it built
18:14:17  <V453000> fixed whites locally
18:28:19  <V453000> I might try to draw at least URAN, VEHI and YETI icons
18:28:28  <V453000> will do now
18:28:34  <V453000> 5-X will still take a bit of time
18:28:41  <V453000> almost done though :)
18:29:10  <V453000> I think the icons are 10x10
18:29:38  <Sylf> lemme check
18:29:51  <V453000> I kind of checked already but please do :) cant hurt
18:31:25  <Sylf> yup, looks like that's it
18:33:04  <V453000> kayz, drawing nawo
18:33:07  <V453000> naow
18:42:46  <andythenorth> oopsie
18:42:50  * andythenorth broke the tests
18:45:43  <Alberth> quickly, throw them away so nobody sees it!
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19:12:11  <frosch123> how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones"
19:16:12  <andythenorth> humour
19:16:14  <andythenorth> in a game
19:16:18  <andythenorth> shameful
19:16:29  * andythenorth deletes things
19:16:31  <andythenorth> tests still pass
19:16:36  <andythenorth> clearly wasn’t needed
19:16:50  <Jinassi> noob-choochoo-trainmaster
19:17:01  <frosch123> i was actually being serious :p
19:17:42  <andythenorth> I am agreeing
19:17:45  <andythenorth> in a very english way
19:17:50  <andythenorth> you should do it
19:17:52  <frosch123> hmm it makes referencing the settings harder though
19:18:09  <frosch123> maybe it should only be a descriptive hint in parentheses
19:18:51  <frosch123> "basic (only important settings), "advanced (most settings)", "expert/all (all including weird settings)"
19:19:37  <Jinassi> you peeps have a very specific humour
19:19:43  <Jinassi> comic sans then? :p
19:20:16  <Jinassi> i go back to my corner
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19:20:30  <frosch123> dom casual is more classic :p
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19:21:19  <Pikka> btw, andythenorth
19:21:42  <Pikka> "Or the British Trains grf, surely?"
19:21:46  <Pikka> totally can't tell. :)
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19:27:37  <peter1138> Totally.
19:30:28  <andythenorth> what did I do now?
19:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S <- ?
19:35:48  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, no idea
19:36:00  <peter1138> tab-complete fail, i think.
19:37:42  <Pikka> you were inscrutable, andythenorth
19:37:49  <Pikka> can't tell if you're serious or not :)
19:38:13  <andythenorth> I’d like to see it succeed
19:38:20  <andythenorth> I don’t enjoy watching people fail
19:38:39  <Pikka> well, sure
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19:39:05  <Pikka> and fair enough
19:39:43  <Pikka> how goes dark horse, btw? since Dan is already talking about moving on to americanish...
19:42:14  <frosch123> dark horse? you mean an american set needs equal amounts of dark/bright, male/female, hetero/homo/bi/a/para trains?
19:45:48  <Pikka> nope
19:46:08  <Pikka> dark horse isn't americanish, it's what comes before americanish :)
19:46:18  <V453000> I want to see a train with tits
19:46:33  <V453000> andythenorth: show me immediatele
19:46:35  <V453000> y
19:47:02  <andythenorth> no horsing
19:47:04  <andythenorth> right now
19:47:08  <andythenorth> je suis working
19:47:15  <andythenorth> horsing is parked
19:47:26  <andythenorth> also I have been busy cancelling christmas
19:47:46  <planetmaker> cancelling christmas, hm. Call it Easter instead?
19:48:53  <planetmaker> <frosch123> how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones" <-- sounds indeed less confusing than current names
19:49:15  <planetmaker> or the parentheses version even
19:55:03  <frosch123> <- "weird" or "strange"?
19:56:34  <Taede> 'weird and wonderful'
20:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> weird and crazy
20:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> "V would use these settings"
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20:05:17  <planetmaker> weird
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20:14:13  <Sylf> twoway_eol is still not in the gui anyway...
20:15:22  <planetmaker> Sylf, no path finder settings are in the GUI
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20:15:34  <Sylf> true
20:15:55  <Sylf> so they're the beyond the expert settings?
20:16:17  <Sylf> mess with them at your own risk
20:16:19  <planetmaker> somewhat the reasoning is: PF settings are crucial and wrong settings can basically 'destroy' the PF from proper working. If you change them, you really should know what you do. And then you can also use the console
20:16:25  <planetmaker> basically yes
20:17:03  <frosch123> there are 3 pathfinder settings in the gui :p
20:17:13  <planetmaker> hm :) 90° turns
20:17:15  <frosch123> 6 in total under "routing"
20:17:29  <planetmaker> dang. you win :)
20:17:39  <frosch123> if you manage to write a proper description i would not mind adding more pathfinder settings of type bool
20:17:48  <frosch123> just do not offer the integer settings :p
20:17:59  <peter1138> Penalty settings!
20:18:12  <peter1138> Allow "expert" users to mess up their games!
20:18:24  <Sylf> :D
20:18:40  <planetmaker> settings level: basic, advanced, expert, mental asylum
20:19:14  *** Celestar [] has quit []
20:19:15  <andythenorth> settings, xml editor
20:19:20  <andythenorth> do it the OS X way
20:19:27  <frosch123> which setting is it actually?
20:19:39  <frosch123> pf.reverse_at_signals?
20:19:57  <frosch123> pf.reserve_paths <- why is that even a setting?
20:20:34  <planetmaker> pf.twoway_red_eol or something
20:20:37  <planetmaker> or what you mean?
20:21:03  <Sylf> yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol
20:21:12  <Sylf> it's sad when I can type that loooking it up >_<
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20:21:17  <Sylf> without*
20:21:30  <peter1138> As a solely path-signal user... har har!
20:21:54  <frosch123> hmm, so it is yapf only
20:22:01  <frosch123> what does npf do?
20:22:27  <andythenorth> also har har at 90’ turns being banned
20:22:44  <peter1138> Also har har at andythenorth's feeble attempt at a ° symbol
20:22:49  <andythenorth> oh that again
20:22:52  <andythenorth> I should learn
20:23:02  * andythenorth is on the road again
20:23:12  <peter1138> Nah, your (sometimes incorrect) smart-quotes everywhere make up for it.
20:23:12  <andythenorth> going to a home out on the range
20:23:17  <andythenorth> thanks
20:23:18  <andythenorth> I do try
20:23:23  <andythenorth> or my client does
20:23:34  <peter1138> Yers, it looks distinctly automatic :-)
20:23:37  <frosch123> Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p
20:23:44  <andythenorth> hmm, can’t write code to ZZ top :P
20:23:45  <Sylf> XD
20:24:03  <andythenorth> 90º turns very bad for ships
20:24:07  <andythenorth> if banned
20:24:13  <andythenorth> "just saying”
20:24:15  <V453000> just call it "make overflows work"
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20:24:23  <V453000> that is what 80% of the people know it as :D
20:24:41  <Sylf> coop style overflow, that is
20:24:43  <frosch123> wut? i use overflow depots all the time, and they work fine
20:24:53  <V453000> probably bad ones :P
20:25:21  <Sylf> see, most people use PBS+forced depot overflows
20:25:29  <V453000> I noticed :)
20:25:38  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
20:25:43  <peter1138> I don't use PBS, as I don't play TTDPatch.
20:25:49  <frosch123> i need servicing anyway, when playing with breakdowns
20:25:57  <V453000> ....................
20:26:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth, only for trains
20:26:50  <frosch123> we could separate 90 degree turns for trains and ships :)
20:26:58  <planetmaker> aren't they?
20:27:00  <frosch123> more settings .)
20:27:09  <frosch123> planetmaker: funnily, no :p
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20:27:16  <V453000> or just make it always allowed for ships?
20:27:21  <V453000> what are the downsides there?
20:27:21  <frosch123> it's another of those: original/realistic settings :p
20:27:51  <frosch123> somewhen i want to add a setting with values "realistic" and "useful"
20:27:52  <V453000> I can imagine that some extremist might want to keep 90deg for trains
20:27:58  <peter1138> We should implement vehicle reversing instead.
20:28:36  <peter1138> Ship stuck? Reverse it out...
20:29:41  <frosch123> i have a patch for trains, it's in hgtrunk5
20:29:41  <planetmaker> frosch123, for ships we simply should ignore that setting. Every ship nearly can turn on the place it's located
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20:30:10  <frosch123> planetmaker: but not instantanious
20:30:35  <planetmaker> doing so is a requirement for a license
20:31:00  <peter1138> Only if there's enough room :-)
20:31:06  <planetmaker> frosch123, not instantanious. But... good enough really. Like with a car turning on a road. But easier
20:31:22  <planetmaker> peter1138, it doesn't need much more than a circle with a diameter of the length of the boat
20:31:45  <peter1138> planetmaker, you obviously play with smaller ships than I see in ottd :)
20:32:05  <planetmaker> :) but even the big ocean liners *can* do so
20:32:19  <planetmaker> and they actually do so in harbours
20:32:42  <V453000> with or without sinking? :D
20:33:01  <planetmaker> without. it's easy
20:33:12  <frosch123> planetmaker: isn't that what towboats are for?
20:33:20  <frosch123> when ships cannot turn on their own?
20:33:58  <planetmaker> those are usually used to tow barges which have no motor at all
20:36:11  <FLHerne> Or to turn big ships in small spaces before all these vectored-thrust pod things came in?
20:36:51  <planetmaker> even without they could. In principle. But only *very* slowly
20:37:44  <planetmaker> so yes, big vessels without auxilary motors are a pain to turn :)
20:40:38  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:51:47  <andythenorth> with 90º turns off, ships take stupid routes
20:51:49  <andythenorth> or get stuck
20:52:08  <andythenorth> in rivers and canals
20:52:26  <andythenorth> it’s a bug afaict
20:52:30  <andythenorth> unless it’s a feature
20:53:22  <frosch123> i don't think ships can get stuck
20:53:42  <frosch123> they will turn 180° and then drive back
20:54:12  <andythenorth> I think I’ve seen it
20:54:21  <andythenorth> they fail to make a turn, continue up a different route
20:54:28  <andythenorth> and then lose the route to the next destination
20:54:32  <frosch123> the onlly annoyance is that they briefly report "ship lost"
20:54:45  <andythenorth> I’m fairly certain they got too far from a bouy
20:54:54  <andythenorth> but I don’t have a save to prove it :)
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21:04:36  <fjb> If nobody has a save of it it didn't happen.
21:06:05  <FLHerne> You can trap them with carefully-timed landcaping
21:07:00  <FLHerne> Because they can only reverse direction when hitting land, so if they're on a diagonal you can trap them in a corner where it looks like they ought to be able to get out
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21:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p <-- that reminds me of "ttdpatch-style non-stop handling" or somesuch
21:42:23  <NGC3982> Coop is a Swedish grocery store chain.
21:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't Koopa like a villain in mario?
21:47:21  <frosch123> night
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22:32:45  <andythenorth> bed
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22:37:06  <argoneus> table
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23:03:07  <argoneus> the inconsistency with planes loading is annoying
23:03:17  <argoneus> full load any cargo should mean full load any cargo
23:03:24  *** Flygon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:03:25  <argoneus> it shouldn't have "intuitive" special functions
23:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> or: full load should be able to specify which cargo
23:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you're really interested in the mail, just refit to mail only
23:05:25  <argoneus> yeah I read that on the forums too
23:05:30  <argoneus> of course I don't want to prioritize mail
23:05:51  <argoneus> but having an undeterministic function that looks the same, is called the same, but works differently for another vehicle
23:05:57  <argoneus> just feels like bad design
23:06:31  <argoneus> wouldn't it be possible to change just the string to "full load passengers"?
23:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're using the word "undeterministic" wrong
23:06:39  <argoneus> since there apparently is code "if vehicle is airplane"
23:06:54  <argoneus> well
23:07:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it does seem inconsistent
23:07:03  <argoneus> it can feel undeterministic for a player that doesn't know it's a special case
23:07:08  <argoneus> makes trains, works one way
23:07:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and no, the string cannot be changed
23:07:11  <argoneus> makes airplane, works another way
23:07:17  <argoneus> player is confused, why the same thing works differently
23:07:26  <argoneus> that's the definition of undeterministic, no?
23:07:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:07:50  <argoneus> it's like throwing a red ball, it flies
23:07:57  <argoneus> then having a blue ball with all the same parameters, just being blue
23:07:59  <argoneus> and it doesn't fly
23:08:05  <argoneus> and you wonder why
23:08:23  <planetmaker> sounds 100% deterministic
23:08:41  <argoneus> okay, I'll replace it with "inconsistent"
23:08:46  <argoneus> you're right
23:08:53  <argoneus> the same blue ball will always do the same
23:08:56  <argoneus> it won't suddenly fly
23:09:14  <argoneus> arguing about semantics will not fix this issue, though :<
23:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the probability that a bowling ball spontaneously jumps of the ground is non-zero :p
23:09:38  <Eddi|zuHause> *off
23:09:47  <argoneus> the probability my body suddenly re-materializes next to yours is non-zero too
23:10:32  <argoneus> zero and infinity are funny numbers :D
23:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't see any amount of arguing causing any change to that feature
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23:10:58  <argoneus> so just changing the string is impossible?
23:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> a) infinity is not a number, b) there's more than one infinity
23:11:49  <argoneus> it is not a real number
23:12:08  <argoneus> and I never talked about b)
23:12:08  <argoneus> :<
23:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> there are algebraic constructs that treat infinity like something you can do operations on
23:13:46  <argoneus> yes
23:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but calling those things "numbers" may be a bit of a stretch
23:13:58  <argoneus> you can extend real numbers with infinity and minus infinity
23:14:00  <argoneus> which is useful
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23:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also extend the real or complex numbers with one type of infinity
23:15:10  <argoneus> trick question
23:15:12  <argoneus> what is 1/inf
23:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> which is used in some forms of projective geometry
23:16:06  <Eddi|zuHause> or in elliptic curves
23:16:17  <argoneus> I wish I found math interesting :(
23:16:30  <argoneus> er
23:16:32  <argoneus> let me revise that
23:16:38  <argoneus> I wish I had the right mindset to understanding math
23:17:06  <argoneus> in high school it was mostly about drilling exercises
23:17:12  <argoneus> now it's about using my brain :(
23:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> elliptic curves are a fun thing
23:18:24  <argoneus> so far I only had linear algebra
23:18:30  <argoneus> so I have no idea what you are talking about
23:18:45  <argoneus> lines, planes, etc, sure
23:18:48  <argoneus> elliptic curves, nope
23:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> an elliptic curve is a function like "y^2=x^3-x-1"
23:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> or more general: "y^2=x^3+ax+b"
23:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> which, if you plot it, is some wiggly thing that is symmetric to the x axis
23:21:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and what you can do with this is define an operation on two points on that curve: "A+B" is defined as the point that intersects with the elliptic curve if you draw a straight line between A and B, and then mirror that point on the x axis
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23:22:29  <argoneus> what point?
23:22:31  <argoneus> when you have a line
23:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> every line you draw like this has 3 intersections with the curve, unless it is vertical, or A=B
23:23:42  <argoneus> ohh, like that
23:23:43  <argoneus> I get it now
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23:24:04  <Eddi|zuHause> in the latter case the tangent is used
23:24:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and in the former case, an element called "O" is used, which represents "the poin in infinity"
23:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> this "O" happens to be the neutral element of this operation
23:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so "A+O=A"
23:25:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and if "A+B=O" then you can think of B=-A
23:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> which incidentally means that A and B are mirrored on the x axis
23:26:32  <argoneus> uhh
23:26:41  <argoneus> why do I feel like everyone here is a math/cs/physics major
23:27:14  <Eddi|zuHause> because we're a protective group and drive out people who are not :p
23:27:30  <argoneus> protective in what sense?
23:27:35  <argoneus> you all seem like a bunch of nice people to me :<
23:27:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure why we still tolerate andy :p
23:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you clearly haven't met TB yet :p
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23:34:27  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: totalbiscuit? :O
23:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:35:17  <argoneus> truebrein?
23:35:29  * argoneus wonders who this mysterious TB is and why I should meet him
23:36:39  <argoneus> aanyway nn my friends
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