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Log for #openttd on 6th November 2014:
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05:43:45  <DanMacK> Hey all
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06:46:28  <andythenorth> herp
06:46:41  <andythenorth> morning pikka chops
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07:04:57  <supermop> yo andy
07:05:18  <supermop> do the 1990-ish coaches in IH load slower or is it in my head?
07:08:07  <planetmaker> moin
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07:08:49  <supermop> i guess i wont get the answer here then
07:12:38  <Supercheese> "load slower" compared to what?
07:13:39  <Pikka> so much for andys
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07:39:37  <supermop> the previously available car
07:40:26  <supermop> just noticed that suddenly all my trains are getting hopelessly behind their timetables
07:40:51  <supermop> and whereas a 6 day stop was sufficient before, now it needs more like 16
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07:51:27  <supermop> time to pay the piper
07:51:34  <supermop> piper being autodesk
07:52:54  <supermop> using a us credit card incurring fees on the .au store, where the software cost 50% more than on the US store...
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08:05:57  <andythenorth> supermop: dunno
08:06:36  <andythenorth> they all have loading speed 5
08:06:45  <andythenorth> so maybe the higher capacity ones take longer to load
08:06:53  <andythenorth> I never bother much about loading speeds
08:07:02  <andythenorth> could fix
08:07:56  <planetmaker> loading speed is in units per time. Thus at same speed a bigger wagon takes longer to load
08:09:02  <andythenorth> in that case the gen 3 coaches take nearly twice as long as gen 1
08:09:08  <andythenorth> how do people notice this stuff? :P
08:09:47  <supermop> messed up all my perfectly synchronized network!
08:10:30  <andythenorth> which GS needs a synchronized network? o_O
08:10:46  <planetmaker> the human GS ;)
08:16:40  <supermop> now to decide whether to downgrade to older coaches or pad timetables by 200%
08:17:04  <Supercheese> better solution, mod the grf
08:17:16  <Supercheese> load speeds too low? raise 'em
08:17:42  <andythenorth> how do you make timetables work?
08:17:54  * andythenorth has never experienced anything except dismay
08:18:48  <andythenorth> ‘travel for’ makes absolutely no sense to me
08:18:57  <andythenorth> does the timetable modify the vehicle speed?
08:19:25  <supermop> it certainly takes patience without the 24hr clock, but i find it easier to use timetables than not
08:19:38  <Pikka> timetabling is silly
08:19:47  <supermop> as infrastructure can be a lot sparer
08:19:55  <andythenorth> how do you make it work with contention?
08:19:55  <Pikka> if you need to space trains, make longer signal blocks. but you don't need to space trains.
08:20:01  <andythenorth> you only need to space ships
08:20:05  <andythenorth> and that doesn’t work anyway
08:20:19  <andythenorth> unless you use full load
08:20:21  <supermop> i just autofill then pad a bit
08:20:26  <andythenorth> but if you’re using full load, why timetable?
08:20:29  <Pikka> spaceships?
08:20:35  <andythenorth> missing feature
08:20:37  <supermop> i dont use full load
08:20:41  <andythenorth> like tunnels, but vertical
08:20:42  <supermop> not even for iron ore
08:21:05  <andythenorth> new type: hypersonic transport
08:21:19  <andythenorth> takes off vertically, disappears, lands vertically elsewhere on map
08:21:31  <andythenorth> could just fake it with distant-join stations :P
08:21:49  <supermop> just have two platforms at the mine, and loading train leaves 5 days after an empty one arrives
08:21:50  <andythenorth> also pikka
08:21:53  <andythenorth> hello
08:21:58  <Pikka> hello
08:22:12  <andythenorth> supermop: BUT THAT IS NOT 100% EFFICIENCY :O
08:22:14  <andythenorth> wtf
08:22:22  <supermop> andythenorth: one is always loading
08:22:26  <andythenorth> imagine the utilisation figures
08:22:39  <andythenorth> your cost per-ton must be awful
08:22:47  <supermop> and steel mill or whatever is guaranteed to get a train every month
08:22:58  <andythenorth> your tonnage per infrastructure tile must be awful
08:23:11  <andythenorth> your ratio of payload to tare weight must be awful
08:23:15  <andythenorth> THIS IS NOT GOOD
08:23:39  <supermop> haha i dont know, i wouldnt mind if the trains drove around empty
08:23:43  <andythenorth> so should the pax cars get dibbled on loading speeds then?
08:23:49  <andythenorth> and what to?
08:23:50  <supermop> just gotta have some trains moving around
08:24:07  <andythenorth> constant loading total time for all generations
08:24:13  <supermop> andythenorth: i dont know, they load faster than pkp set i think
08:24:13  <andythenorth> or faster for older / newer
08:24:59  <supermop> it makes sense to me - if its a new mk4'ish' whatever sure its long with only a small door
08:25:17  <supermop> can play well with it either way
08:25:33  <andythenorth> I’m dibbling it now
08:25:56  <supermop> generally though if i a train takes 16 days to unload then load 20-30% of the people on board maybe it makes things less fun
08:26:43  <andythenorth> you can’t have new version in your game though
08:26:46  <supermop> assuming you want a town to get a train at least once a month (maybe i dont know how important that is to most people)
08:26:51  <andythenorth> unless you don’t mind ottd whining a lot about mail cars
08:27:02  <supermop> no mail in this game
08:27:15  <supermop> unless GS makes me i dont bother with mail
08:28:01  <supermop> anyway if you want 1-2 trains per month stopping at a station, you are going to need at least 2 platforms for those types of turnarounds
08:28:04  <supermop> that said
08:28:56  <supermop> i like that there is an actual functional difference between the cars, maybe there is value on being able to choose 3rd gen for long distance and 2nd for short
08:29:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: shameful comment about UKRS :P
08:29:54  <Pikka> nonsense :P
08:30:06  <supermop> personally i'd be tempted to always play with super fast speeds because i cant be bothered often with that part of gameplay - just want trains coming and going from my towns in a pretty fashion
08:30:43  <andythenorth> supermop: Iron Horse doesn’t bother with that choosing crap
08:30:45  <andythenorth> well
08:30:46  <andythenorth> it does
08:30:56  <andythenorth> but if you want short distance, it’s in a town, so you buy a metro
08:31:12  <supermop> andythenorth: yeah, and i find that i bit refreshing
08:31:16  <andythenorth> and if it’s a small route between two small towns, you buy a railcar
08:31:27  <andythenorth> stop making choices based on the small print
08:31:32  <andythenorth> make them based on the big print :P
08:31:51  <supermop> i made a train of one gridiron pulling 7 slammers
08:31:57  <andythenorth> ha
08:32:06  <andythenorth> with animated rivets
08:32:11  <supermop> to get some better loading speeds
08:32:12  <Pikka> andy: I don't know where to begin addressing nekomaster's criticisms of the new NARS. You have a go. :P
08:32:30  <andythenorth> Pikka: I was baffled
08:32:33  <andythenorth> about how to
08:32:34  <supermop> its a new set people can use the old one right Pikka ?
08:32:40  <andythenorth> I do enjoy neko
08:32:47  <andythenorth> but I think he was drunk, high, or missing the point
08:32:52  <andythenorth> supermop: is horse: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
08:32:55  <supermop> also i am from US and i dont really get regearing
08:33:02  <andythenorth> also changes since 1.2.1 https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/revisions
08:33:08  <supermop> as in, why that is a thing in a newgrf
08:33:18  <Pikka> because BAD FEATURES
08:33:28  <V453000> !!!
08:33:30  <V453000> hello gentlemen
08:33:33  <V453000> and andythenorth
08:33:35  <supermop> i understand that a railroad's shops could put whatever gears they want in a diesel, but
08:33:46  <Pikka> remove every 'yeti'
08:33:49  <supermop> why in nars? idk i never played nars
08:33:58  <V453000> :(
08:34:18  <Pikka> ho ho
08:34:23  <supermop> north american railroads are boring
08:34:27  <Pikka> NARS is the best newgrf
08:34:30  * V453000 has been complaining about max production of original industries, just got even more in my current yeti xd
08:34:34  <Pikka> if you like samey diesels from 1967
08:34:59  <Pikka> neko's main criticism seems to be that I removed too many samey diesels from 1967, there are now only about 20 of them.
08:35:05  <supermop> growing up around those trains, waving at them as a kid in the early 80s,
08:35:14  <supermop> they all looked and still look the same to me
08:35:29  <V453000> -> slugs
08:35:40  <Pikka> mmm sluges
08:35:49  <Supercheese> they are the same
08:36:08  <Supercheese> regearing was cute, not essential, but cute
08:36:24  <Supercheese> fraught with problems too
08:36:25  <Pikka> and only slightly completely game-breaking
08:36:40  <andythenorth> Pikka: I dunno, is neko representative of standard human being?
08:36:59  <Supercheese> mas o menos
08:37:05  <supermop> now ive unfortunately got to the point where i can identify almost any car by sight, and BR diesel, etc etc, but still neither know nor care whether some big box is EMD or whoever
08:37:14  <Pikka> well he won the "I don't like it, put it back the way it was" prize, which I was expecting someone to do.
08:37:32  <Supercheese> I think at least some were expecting "old NARS but with autorefit"
08:37:44  <supermop> was old nars fun though?
08:37:46  <Supercheese> and possibly also "and with hidden trains exposed"
08:37:47  <peter1138> derpaherp
08:37:55  <supermop> no offense Pikka
08:38:02  <andythenorth> old NARS 2 was fun
08:38:04  <supermop> i dont know because i never tried it
08:38:10  <Supercheese> go try it then
08:38:12  <Supercheese> still there
08:38:25  <andythenorth> I played with it in ~every game for about 2 years
08:38:32  <andythenorth> that or CanSet
08:38:47  <andythenorth> but then those days are gone etc
08:38:54  <Pikka> it was not fun, it was stupid and I have no idea why everyone kept playing it despite all the game-breaking BAD FEATURES. The fact that people insisted on keeping using it is the only reason I made the update.
08:38:54  * Supercheese wonders how difficult it would be to add autorefit to old nars
08:39:17  <Supercheese> someone already coded an addon methinks
08:39:19  <andythenorth> Pikka: because I ignored regearing etc
08:39:22  <Supercheese>  override*
08:39:41  <supermop> so really though, why not a set of just one hood diesel each 15 years?
08:39:50  <andythenorth> well
08:40:03  <andythenorth> I stopped playing when I realised that GP38 all the things
08:40:21  <Pikka> absolutely. GP38 is the best.
08:40:29  <Pikka> that's why Pineapple only has a GP38 :P
08:40:50  <supermop> also that huge UP thing - just looks like any other up thing? blasphemous?
08:40:55  <Supercheese> ?
08:41:05  <supermop> really long diesel
08:41:18  <supermop> dont know if there is one in nars
08:41:32  <Pikka> there is a DD40AX in NARS, yes.
08:41:56  <Pikka> "EMD Centennial" iirc
08:42:11  <supermop> i like that australia is not all hood units, though it seems to have some
08:42:41  <Pikka> queensland is certainly all hood units, except the electrics
08:43:29  <andythenorth> Queensland Horse
08:43:36  <Supercheese> at least the HEP is gone
08:43:37  <supermop> like the two that drove through the paliament deep bore station i was in here and had me coughing for 20 minutes
08:43:37  <andythenorth> supermop: what year are you at in IH?
08:43:39  <Supercheese> that was always bleh
08:43:43  <supermop> 92
08:43:44  <andythenorth> HEP was a terrible feature
08:43:48  <supermop> stopped
08:43:56  <Supercheese> far too much realizmz
08:44:07  <andythenorth> supermop: any comments?
08:44:10  <Pikka> it was
08:44:19  <Pikka> it was pre wagonrunningcosts though
08:44:35  <supermop> andythenorth: yes but heading out door to dinner
08:44:37  <andythenorth> what larks
08:45:13  <supermop> load speed only issue
08:45:17  <supermop> it was a SV game
08:45:37  <supermop> but i got distracted with a passenger network and lost
08:46:03  <andythenorth> oopsie
08:46:45  <supermop> but i had shared running all lines freight and passenger
08:46:57  <supermop> so vulcan too fast
08:47:12  <supermop> except on container lines
08:47:40  <supermop> and electra slower than vulcan odd but fine
08:47:49  <supermop> i guess vulcan is deltic-ish
08:48:09  <andythenorth> vulcan is standard engine
08:48:15  <andythenorth> it’s best for most cases
08:48:22  <supermop> a 160kmhish electric before 1990 would be ok
08:48:31  <andythenorth> fair point
08:48:38  <andythenorth> electrics are a bit nobbled until 90s
08:48:44  <supermop> but i used electra for everything that wasnt a train of slammers
08:48:46  <supermop> brb
08:49:31  * andythenorth also bbling
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09:18:38  <argoneus> ayy
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09:43:38  <fjb> Moin
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09:56:36  <Pikka> boin
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10:08:05  <peter1138> sup
10:11:19  <lugo> nth
10:13:05  <lugo> besides wiping away some crocodile tears for bad features going missing in certain grfs :')
10:14:28  <andythenorth> my life is over
10:14:34  <andythenorth> my grf collection is now worthless
10:15:11  <andythenorth> http://www.lugnet.com/general/~1285/traumaticevents
10:16:55  <lugo> so grfs are even getting worse in the future?!
10:18:38  <andythenorth> grfs are dying
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10:19:55  <b_jonas> NOOOOOO!
10:19:58  <b_jonas> I like the grfs
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10:25:27  <peter1138> Crikey, they've been doing Star Wars lego since 1999? heh
10:25:44  <andythenorth> ruined someone’s life that
10:25:55  <peter1138> Probably not George Lucas'
10:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> and what to? <-- "capacity/5" or something.
10:46:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so whatever your capacity is, it'll always load in 5 steps
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10:49:33  <peter1138> How can I only have 20,503 audio tracks? :S
10:55:59  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s what I concluded too
10:56:02  <andythenorth> boring, but eh
10:56:04  <andythenorth> easy
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10:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: 20000 from your younger days when you grabbed everything you could get hold on, and then 500 that you actually knew you'd like before you got them :p
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11:00:05  <peter1138> Younger days :S
11:00:29  <peter1138> That must've been last month when I grabbed a load of (legal) torrents that were available.
11:01:59  <peter1138> I will get things that I've heard and liked 1 track from before, and things I haven't heard at all if I know the artist enough.
11:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't got new music in ages...
11:02:52  <peter1138> What about old music?
11:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> legal or otherwise
11:03:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "new" as in "i didn't have it before"
11:03:15  <peter1138> I guess these days it is all streaming.
11:03:22  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, just checking :)
11:03:30  <peter1138> "new music is music you haven't heard before" etc
11:03:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i also haven't listened to my old music as much
11:03:52  <peter1138> My newest music is... er...
11:03:59  <peter1138> Hmm, stuff that me & Belugas did the other night.
11:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so other than the radio in the car, and occasional youtube flyby...
11:04:59  <peter1138> Hmm, an Ian Dury compilation for £1 from a charity shop.
11:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea who that is
11:06:38  <andythenorth> :o
11:07:02  <supermop> i didnt bring any music down here
11:07:17  <supermop> neither LPs nor HDD full of tracks
11:07:52  <supermop> just listen to whatever fiancee is streaming on spotify
11:08:53  <peter1138> Yeah, all streaming as I said :)
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11:10:22  <peter1138> REASONS TO BE CHEERFUL, part 3
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11:13:48  <peter1138> hitttttttttttttttttttttt meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
11:14:00  <planetmaker> *bam*
11:14:04  <planetmaker> Feeling better now? :D
11:14:05  <peter1138> with your rhythm stick
11:14:18  <planetmaker> oh, you should have said before ;)
11:17:51  <peter1138> Heh, HW cursor...
11:18:02  <peter1138> Nice idea, bad implmentation :p
11:33:58  <supermop> Pikka: whats the best way to buy ram or an ssd while down here?
11:35:43  <supermop> does newegg ship here?
11:39:02  <supermop> seems it does
11:44:59  <supermop> hmm anyone have an opinion between sandisk/intel/samsung?
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11:56:51  <Xaroth|Work> samsung/intel/sandisk, in that order
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12:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a samsung SSD
12:05:50  <Eddi|zuHause> not noticed any problems
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12:17:21  <argoneus> I have a kingston SSD
12:17:23  <argoneus> rip
12:20:30  <andythenorth> loads of Crucial ones
12:20:38  <andythenorth> they seem to have a slowdown ~12 months
12:20:49  <andythenorth> which might be a defect, or lack of TRIM support on OS X
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12:29:14  <peter1138> OS X doesn't do TRIM? :S
12:29:25  <andythenorth> well
12:29:43  <peter1138> That reminds me
12:29:54  <supermop_> why do i have an underscore now and why did i just see myself quit?
12:30:01  <andythenorth> glitch in the matrix
12:30:02  <peter1138> $ sudo fstrim -v /
12:30:04  <peter1138> :)
12:30:25  <andythenorth> it does TRIM, but only if you have a stock apple drive, or you enable it with 3rd party utility
12:30:33  <peter1138> Ah, Apple...
12:30:34  <andythenorth> but then you have to read loads of agonised forum threads
12:30:38  <andythenorth> about how it broke your drive
12:30:40  <peter1138> /: 9910779904 bytes were trimmed
12:30:43  <andythenorth> or about how not using it broke your driev
12:30:50  <peter1138> Heh
12:31:09  <andythenorth> I just assumed my SSD was disposable and enabled it
12:31:12  <andythenorth> backups ftw
12:31:13  <peter1138> I suppose I could change my / to be mounted with discard.
12:31:27  <peter1138> Yeah, assume any disk is disposable really.
12:31:31  <andythenorth> really, £250 / year to keep ALL MY STUFF EVER
12:31:34  <andythenorth> is nothing
12:31:56  <peter1138> I have issues with older servers that take 80pin SCA SCSI drives :(
12:32:11  <peter1138> Because, you know, replacing stuff costs money... sigh.
12:32:19  <andythenorth> replace the server
12:32:22  <andythenorth> solved
12:32:34  <peter1138> Yes, you'd think.
12:33:56  <peter1138> Oh for god's sake, they're still accusing Saville of more shit.
12:35:59  <argoneus> can you put SSDs into RAID?
12:36:05  <argoneus> to mirror
12:36:10  <argoneus> I guess you can huh
12:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> why not?
12:36:36  <andythenorth> of course you can
12:36:48  <andythenorth> common cloud hosting set up
12:37:15  <peter1138> [    2.421812] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 8448300 512-byte logical blocks: (4.32 GB/4.02 GiB)
12:37:18  <peter1138> JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
12:37:25  <peter1138> Why is that still in service :S
12:37:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that is so ancient they produced disk sizes in GiB?
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12:38:44  <Eddi|zuHause> just copy that entire thing on a virtual server
12:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody will ever notice :p
12:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> like in star trek 9 :p
12:43:10  <Pikka> supermop_, some of us go to shops and stuff like it's the 19th century
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12:44:04  <Pikka> that got rid of him.
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12:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that got rid of him as well
12:56:55  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Star Trek ..9? :E
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13:00:24  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, remember this line: 12:31 <@peter1138> I have issues with older servers that take 80pin SCA SCSI drives :(
13:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:00:45  <peter1138> That means ALL those drives are only in GB capacities.
13:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause> what i meant was that's in 1024 based units, not in 1000
13:01:48  <peter1138> (mostly 36 and 72)
13:02:02  <peter1138> Pfft, that's Linux for you.
13:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> nowadays when you buy a 3TB drive, it's 3 000 000 000 000 bytes
13:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> which is like 10% off actual 3TiB
13:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> but yours is actual 4GiB
13:10:45  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: do you mean 80%?
13:10:48  <b_jonas> anyway, yes
13:11:42  <b_jonas> that's why my three hard disks in the home computer, with capacities 250GB, 1TB, 2TB resp, give a total capacity of 3.0TiB
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13:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: for each prefix you lose 2.4% (1.024-1), so K: 2.4%, M: 4.8%, G: 7.2%, T: 9.6%
13:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> these values differ slightly if you calculate with 1/1.024
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13:36:28  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you'll notice that 250GB is around 10% of 3TB
13:38:32  <andythenorth> computers
13:38:34  <andythenorth> are silly
13:38:43  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
13:40:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same kind of BAD FEATURE as rounding supermarket prices to .99
13:42:19  <NGC3982> "legend för godsflöden"
13:42:47  <NGC3982> Can't find the English translation. That Goods matrix in the map sub menue. How long has it been there? Haven't seen it before.
13:42:53  <NGC3982> And i can't figure out what it ..does.
13:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it shows you the cargodist network for that cargo
13:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and finding translations is easy, grep src/lang/<language>.txt for your text, look up the ID it's given there, and then grep for that ID in english.txt
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13:56:14  <argoneus> but rounding prices to .99 has a psychological effect
13:56:16  <argoneus> they don't do it for lulz
13:56:59  <argoneus> did you guys know
13:57:10  <argoneus> that insane amounts of research go even into things like how high to put things on a shelf in a store
13:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, so is rounding HD sizes 10% up
13:57:33  <Belugas> good day
13:57:45  <argoneus> or that in most supermarkets, the things people buy the most, e.g. bread, are in the furthest corner of the shop usually
13:57:52  <argoneus> so you have to walk through all the other things and you pick them up
13:57:56  <peter1138> Heh, if I buy something on Bandcamp I deliberately round up to the nearest £.
13:58:05  <peter1138> Because fuck 99ps
13:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i once returned something costing 15,99 to a shop and bought something for 19,99, and the cashier got horribly confused when the difference came out as 4€ instead of 5€
13:59:51  <peter1138> :-)
13:59:57  <SpComb> peter1138: a bit of parted and rsync and grub-install and she'll be good
14:00:17  <peter1138> parted what?
14:00:22  <SpComb> the virtual machine disk
14:00:37  <peter1138> What virtual machine disk?
14:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the one that you're copying the ancient server to
14:01:55  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Isn't the HD sizes thing a difference between kB and kiB?
14:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: yes
14:02:36  <blathijs> And isn't that more like 24/1024*100=2,3% up?
14:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you arguing about 3rd significant digits?
14:03:52  <andythenorth> 99p was to cause the till to be opened
14:03:55  <andythenorth> allegedly
14:04:05  <blathijs>  Eddi|zuHause │ sure, so is rounding HD sizes 10% up <-- No, I was responding to that. But I should have read further back before opening my mound
14:04:08  <blathijs> Carry on.
14:05:12  <peter1138> And virtual disks would be using either files or lvm, not fucking around with partitions on a physical volume.
14:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds like a stupid reason
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14:06:09  <SpComb> well, you have a partition table within the VM disk, to have it boot
14:06:12  <andythenorth> might be urban myth
14:06:28  <peter1138> SpComb, not sure... what you are talking about.
14:06:47  <peter1138> The disk is already partitioned...
14:07:19  <andythenorth> http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2359/the-origin-of-99-cents
14:07:54  <peter1138> andythenorth, nothing to do with option a till, that's ridiculous.
14:08:12  <andythenorth> comes up in most of the reference material though
14:08:29  <andythenorth> i.e. the 2 things I found on google :P
14:08:36  <andythenorth> one of which is probably based on the other
14:09:15  <peter1138> Hmm, Zalman went tits up.
14:10:19  <blathijs> peter1138: Pity, they made good stuff
14:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's the first time i ever heard that.
14:15:09  <andythenorth> sounds similar to the reason we have QWERTY
14:15:14  <Eddi|zuHause> while the psychological argument is perfectly logical
14:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the open till argument is just terrible
14:19:59  <blathijs> The psychological argument is probably unlikely for people that under-estimate their own influentuability (?)
14:21:58  <argoneus> well
14:22:00  <argoneus> in theory
14:22:05  <argoneus> you can sell 800 TB disks
14:22:11  <argoneus> and in fineprint just write
14:22:19  <argoneus> (we define 1 byte as 2 bits)
14:22:47  <argoneus> and it's not lying
14:24:02  <planetmaker> no, you cannot do that
14:24:22  <planetmaker> as it would be ruled as deception and illegal
14:24:38  <blathijs> In the end, it's about what the judge would think about it (and you can guess what they'll rule about something like that)
14:25:10  <argoneus> but well
14:25:14  <argoneus> a byte is not 8 bits
14:25:18  <argoneus> necessarily*
14:25:25  <argoneus> so if it wasn't fineprint
14:25:27  <planetmaker> maybe you would even be charged with fraud, thus not only civil law, but criminal law
14:25:46  <argoneus> it's valid :<
14:25:56  <argoneus> even if you called it
14:26:05  <planetmaker> you cannot simply re-define words in your language
14:26:32  <argoneus> it's not re-defining
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14:26:36  <argoneus> a byte is not defined as 8 bits
14:26:45  <argoneus> you can define a byte to be 30 bits if you want
14:26:56  <argoneus> there isn't a bit count definition
14:27:14  <argoneus> so if you said "1000 TB disk with 2-bit bytes!"
14:27:23  <argoneus> it's not even fraud, because you are not deceiving anyone
14:27:26  <argoneus> (imho)
14:28:13  <planetmaker> luckily it's not for you to decide that ;)
14:28:28  <argoneus> not "luckily"
14:28:34  <__ln__> argoneus: the french are prepared for that.
14:28:37  <argoneus> I have no intent of deceiving uninformed people
14:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: it's definitely fraud
14:28:49  <argoneus> it's just that I don't see how it wouldn't stand legally
14:29:00  <argoneus> or is there such a thing as "abusing people being uninformed / dumb"?
14:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause> or deceiving advertisment
14:29:20  <andythenorth> hrm
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14:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: at least the german law says "there may be nothing 'surprising' or unusual in the fine print"
14:29:46  <argoneus> it's no more fraud imho than selling an item for twice the price and having a 50% sale
14:30:05  <argoneus> it just feels unethical
14:30:16  <planetmaker> that's different. There you don't promise a property of the product you don't actually fulfill
14:30:17  <argoneus> but no one can tell you "a byte must be 8 bits", because it doesn't
14:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but it does.
14:30:31  <argoneus> it doesn't
14:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it does
14:30:36  <argoneus> there's a reason the term "octal" exists
14:30:55  <planetmaker> there's also a reason a difference between technical terms and every day language exists
14:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a technical definition on what a byte is
14:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> people expect that to be the same everywhere
14:31:07  <argoneus> yes
14:31:12  <argoneus> but it doesn't say anywhere a byte is 8 bits
14:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> everything deviating from that is misleading/surprising/unusual and thus not allowed
14:31:35  <planetmaker> that's the common definition of byte. You'll find it everywhere where you look up the meaning of byte, argoneus
14:31:58  <argoneus> The byte /ˈbaɪt/ is a unit of digital information in computing and telecommunications that most commonly consists of eight bits.
14:32:03  <argoneus> emphasis on "most commonly"
14:32:04  <planetmaker> and then you find there also "sometimes, it was used with other number of bits..." which are definitely edgy edge cases
14:32:13  <argoneus> it's not really edgy edge
14:32:15  <argoneus> ASCII is 7 bits
14:32:21  <argoneus> an ascii byte is 7 bits
14:32:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no
14:32:33  <planetmaker> no
14:32:53  * argoneus shrugs
14:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ASCII says there are 7 bits of data in your 8 bit byte
14:33:03  <planetmaker> even the 8088 had 8 bit bytes. with the lower 7 bits being ascii
14:33:33  <argoneus> ascii used to be 7 bit
14:33:39  <argoneus> before they made it standard 8
14:33:41  <argoneus> iirc
14:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> some protocols like SATA may transfer 10 bits for each 8 bit of data
14:34:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so 600 mbit/s are actually 60 MB/s
14:34:53  <argoneus> anyway
14:35:00  <argoneus> so laws / courts cover common sense?
14:35:11  <argoneus> as in, the guy claiming "I thought a byte was 8 bits" would stand in court?
14:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. mostly
14:35:18  <blathijs> argoneus: Even if a byte is not necessarily 8 bits (not sure about that) - it is _almost always_ 8 bits and can be expected to be 8 bits, which is what counts in advertising / commercial agreements
14:35:20  <planetmaker> I would bet on that, yes
14:35:26  <argoneus> I was never in court, so I don't know
14:35:33  <argoneus> (nor was I interested in it that much)
14:36:06  <argoneus> so the consensus is
14:36:24  <argoneus> for me or you a byte may not be 8 bits, but for my mother a byte is 8 bits, and if someone tried to trick my mother on that, they'd probably lose?
14:36:26  <planetmaker> if you deviate from the norm, you have to clearly and explicitly note that. Which cannot mean it's only in the fine print
14:36:49  <planetmaker> in Europe they would
14:37:29  <Eddi|zuHause> many european countries also have laws that you can't advertise stuff in imperial units but must use SI units
14:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> which most notably affected computer monitors, which for some reason were advertised in inches instead of cm, like TV monitors always were
14:43:47  <argoneus> I have no idea how large the equivalent of a 17 inch display is
14:43:52  <argoneus> in cm
14:44:00  <V453000> 666
14:44:07  <Xaroth|Work> 2.54cm * inches
14:44:26  <Xaroth|Work> give or take 43.2cm
14:49:40  <peter1138> Yeah, the conversion is obvious, but the visualization of it isn't.
14:53:25  <planetmaker> two hand spans
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15:02:45  <peter1138> Cubits!
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15:10:09  <planetmaker> qbits :)
15:10:36  <planetmaker> means you know it all. You just can't access that knowledge :P
15:14:00  <peter1138> :)
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17:45:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27057 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2014-11-06 17:45:32 UTC)
17:45:39  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> latin - 2 changes by Supercheese
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18:27:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure that's only a minor oversight :p https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1wD2RxIMAAnZTw.jpg:orig
18:30:06  <Alberth> ?
18:30:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that flag hanging from a building somewhat resembles... other flags... that were hanging from buildings :p
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18:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> especially in the center of berlin :p
18:31:40  <frosch123> it is only red and white, not black
18:31:52  <Alberth> hmm, ok
18:32:19  <andythenorth> is cat red and white?
18:32:25  <Alberth> apparently
18:32:35  <frosch123> after blending that's the most likely colour
18:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there probably are cats that are red and white
18:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> if you count orange as red
18:32:59  <Alberth> close enough :)
18:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> but only female cats may be red white and black
18:33:32  * andythenorth biab
18:33:42  <andythenorth> what useful info for you all :P
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18:52:45  <peter1138> Why is CAN's Monster Movie album labeled "THE CAN"? :S
18:53:44  <peter1138> (And I expect all German people, at least, to have heard of CAN)
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19:01:51  <andythenorth> right
19:01:53  <andythenorth> let’s make GS
19:01:56  <andythenorth> what do I do?
19:02:06  <andythenorth> do I need to understand programming?
19:02:27  <peter1138> Probably.
19:02:51  <Alberth> start from nocargoal or SV ?
19:03:14  <andythenorth> Zuu has a minimal GS
19:04:09  <Alberth> that likely does nothing
19:08:57  * andythenorth needs a collaborator
19:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so what is CAN?
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19:14:26  * andythenorth has yet another GS idea
19:14:31  <andythenorth> 5 Year Plan
19:14:42  <andythenorth> player is issued a number of challenges to be completed in 5 years
19:14:56  <andythenorth> with penalties if failed
19:15:10  <andythenorth> then next 5 year plan is issued
19:15:56  <Alberth> start with one challenge at a time?
19:16:28  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
19:16:39  <Wolf01> hi hi
19:17:40  <andythenorth> Alberth: probably a simple one initially
19:17:53  <andythenorth> I can’t see how to ensure the first challenge is completable
19:18:01  <andythenorth> unless it’s a boring pax transport goal
19:18:26  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: apparently a german band from the 70s, which got popular in uk
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19:18:53  <Alberth> andythenorth: put it in some range, distance between A and B, amount between C and D
19:18:55  <frosch123> can't say i know any of the titles
19:19:19  <andythenorth> GS design is really unappetising because it happens in abstract
19:19:34  <andythenorth> no idea of map, industries, cargos, locations, vehicles, dates etc
19:19:42  <Alberth> for bonus, you can check if there are huge mountains in between
19:20:08  <Alberth> but players are quite inventive if you give them room
19:20:33  <Wolf01> mh, steam is teasing me to play railroad tycoon 2
19:20:39  <andythenorth> don’t bother
19:20:41  <andythenorth> it’s boring imho
19:20:42  <Alberth> ie transport X tonnes of Y can be done anywhere at the map, players will find a good spot
19:21:00  <andythenorth> Alberth: true, it’s just lacking something
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19:21:17  <andythenorth> “El Presidente commands you to deliver 5,000 tonnes of steel to Jingleville”
19:21:22  <andythenorth> is more precise
19:21:30  <Alberth> a la SV
19:21:35  <andythenorth> yup
19:21:38  <Taytay> Hello !
19:21:43  <Alberth> hi hi
19:21:55  <Taytay> I'm trying to use 32bpp with openttd 1.4.4
19:22:16  <Taytay> I don't find any uptodate doc
19:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: oh, 70's... no, that's the *wrong* germany then :)
19:22:29  <Alberth> well, only specifying a detination leaves all sources free for choosing
19:22:56  <Alberth> Taytay: docs?  just download zbase or a newgrf with 32bpp sprites
19:23:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: usually i also know tracks from the 70s, but non of these
19:23:32  <andythenorth> hmm
19:23:39  <andythenorth> shall I call this 5 Year Plan?
19:23:43  <andythenorth> or something else?
19:23:46  * andythenorth needs a repo
19:24:01  <andythenorth> this is bad news for newgrfs btw :P
19:24:01  <Taytay> Alberth: thanks ! zbase have all standard sprites ?
19:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: sure, i know *some* songs from the 70s, but it's not really my area of interest
19:24:13  <Alberth> mkdir 5yp; cd 5yp; hg init  :p
19:24:31  <frosch123> i am sure leading digit will breaks stuff again
19:24:32  <Alberth> Taytay: it's a base set, I 'd hope so :)
19:24:42  <frosch123> hmm, though maybe 2cc already broke those
19:25:04  <Alberth> hmm, p5y  wouldbe safer I  guess :)
19:25:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: there was a bureaucracy ai
19:25:38  <Alberth> bureaucrazy :p
19:25:40  <frosch123> only built routes after being instructed via subsidy
19:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: every railroad tycoon without dispatcher operation (signals) is probably useless.
19:25:49  <andythenorth> how rare
19:25:56  <frosch123> so, bureaucracy gs?
19:26:06  <andythenorth> Wolf01: RT3 much better imo
19:26:15  <Taytay> Alberth: cool ! thanks ! (i played openttd old version like 0.4/0.5... I have a lot of things to rediscover :)
19:26:18  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, that's why I'm stuck with OTTD
19:26:21  <andythenorth> RT2 is a sub-par OpenTTD
19:26:32  <andythenorth> I spent all my time wondering where the other transport types were
19:26:32  <Taytay> andythenorth: ;)
19:26:35  <andythenorth> or watching it crash
19:26:48  <Alberth> Taytay: no worries, it's still about making train networks :)
19:26:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: what does it do? o_O
19:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i probably spent half an hour in RT2...
19:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and then i got fed up
19:27:10  <Eddi|zuHause> with all the economy and share crap
19:27:13  <andythenorth> yeah, but It Has Rotation
19:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and not enough train stuff
19:27:21  <Taytay> Alberth: :) I think  there was less train signals
19:27:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you’re thinking of RT3
19:27:34  <andythenorth> with economy
19:27:41  <Taytay> no path ones
19:27:41  <Wolf01> I have RT3 too, but I need to dl it
19:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never played RT3
19:27:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: instruct you to build specifiy routes, ideally screwing you over with the requirements
19:28:02  <frosch123> like picking industries with 30 height level difference
19:28:09  <Alberth> Taytay: yeah, the old block and pre-signals are now obsolete :)
19:28:17  <Wolf01> I have Sid Meier's Railroads! too
19:28:25  <Taytay> Alberth: oki ! thanks !
19:28:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: winner
19:28:35  <frosch123> andythenorth: how about picking routes by checking the linear connection between them for obstacles
19:28:54  <andythenorth> headache.gs
19:29:01  <frosch123> and then pick them with water, mountains and towns in the path
19:29:02  <Wolf01> the funny thing is that I only played (O)TTD, LoMo and a little Simutrans
19:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: or use a pathfinder lib to check the "best" route?
19:29:34  <Alberth> andythenorth: or giving the user a few alternatives, so he can ignore the impossible ones
19:29:37  <frosch123> yeah, check that there is no good route :p
19:29:41  <Taytay> Alberth: I don't know if I can play with 32bpp ... I'm too old :(
19:29:59  <andythenorth> offer 3, require 2 to be met to advance
19:30:06  <frosch123> Taytay: you picked the wrong guy to complain about age :p
19:30:07  <Alberth> Taytay: I don't like 32bpp
19:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: "EvilGS": next goal is always the one that is furthest away from your current network
19:30:27  <Taytay> Alberth: :)
19:30:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that wouldn’t last long :P
19:30:37  <andythenorth> you’d span links across the map really fast
19:30:41  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "far" is no good metric
19:30:46  <Taytay> There is any webinterface to manage server
19:30:51  <frosch123> it should be "near, but hard to reach"
19:31:00  <Taytay> which can who map (like google map)
19:31:08  <Taytay> which can show map (like google map)
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19:31:28  <Taytay> ?
19:31:31  <Wolf01> it would be nice
19:33:00  <Taytay> Wolf01: OH, okki. So, is there any python librairie to read saved games ?
19:33:43  <Alberth> unlikely, the save game format constantly changes
19:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Taytay: there may be patches in the forum that you can use to export the map from a running server
19:34:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Taytay: or there is "pngtile" which can process a giant screenshot
19:34:36  <Alberth> frosch123: do you have a FS number nearby for a UI redesign?
19:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> server may need special arguments to be able to output a screenshot
19:35:04  <frosch123> Taytay: there is http://pngtile.qmsk.net/terom/openttd/20121229/
19:35:43  <frosch123> Alberth: https://wiki.openttd.org/GUI_re-arrangement
19:35:59  <Alberth> oh, how convenient, thanks!
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19:40:10  <andythenorth> \o/
19:40:14  <andythenorth> UI :)
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19:41:07  <Taytay> frosch123: Thanks !
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19:44:25  * andythenorth fixes webforms
19:44:27  <andythenorth> no GS for andythenorth
19:44:41  <andythenorth> it is some spectacularly ugly python
19:51:09  * peter1138 puts his penis away
19:53:32  <Wolf01> yay, I just beated last year's record of lego sets purchased
19:56:14  <Alberth> and Christmas has still to come :)
19:57:02  <Wolf01> no, this weekend has still to come
19:57:17  <Wolf01> and the next one and so on
19:57:23  <Wolf01> until Christmas
19:58:50  <Wolf01> my advent calendar has 24 weeks
19:59:08  <andythenorth> peter1138: not a minute too late either
19:59:14  <andythenorth> Wolf01: you bought 0?
20:00:02  <Wolf01> nah, just 17
20:03:12  * andythenorth lost in music
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20:49:26  <peter1138> I should wipe all evidence of rgb company colours.
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20:55:19  <peter1138> Hmm, does NARS 2.5 make use of any railtypes?
21:03:02  <andythenorth> not afaik
21:03:04  <andythenorth> elrail :P
21:10:04  <NGC3982> "Nars" sounds like a high school insult.
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21:20:17  <peter1138> RailRoad Tycoon (TM) - Version 455.02
21:20:18  <peter1138> YEAH
21:28:57  *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:38:07  <peter1138> Heh, didn't know the Del shortcut came from TTD.
21:39:33  <frosch123> really? i thought that would belong to sticky windows
21:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i've come across that before OpenTTD
21:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but i never actually played pure TTD
21:41:46  <peter1138> Playing it now, in dosbox.
21:41:56  <peter1138> Time to fix some bugs ;)
21:44:34  * NGC3982 owns TTD in big box.
21:58:00  <__ln__> http://fi8.eu.apcdn.com/full/125757.jpg
22:07:14  <Rubidium> double ROT13 is way better
22:10:53  <frosch123> where is that from? :p
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22:14:52  * Rubidium wonders why such information needs to be shared with merchants in any case
22:15:17  <frosch123> oh my, googling for base64 encryption results in a lot of scary stuff
22:15:32  <frosch123> code samples, and peoply who are thankful for them
22:15:40  <Rubidium> (at least here the most common method of internet payment doesn't send any bank account information to the merchent besides the bank you want to pay with)
22:16:32  <frosch123> well, i guess credit cards are an about 80 year old technology
22:17:02  <Rubidium> yup... I only use creditcards in less developed countries ;)
22:17:36  <Rubidium> sorry Belugas for not being able to pay in many places here with your creditcard
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22:18:19  <frosch123> http://tech.chitgoks.com/2008/03/24/php-encrypt-decrypt-using-base64/ <- hmm, i don't think the comments are trolling
22:18:47  <frosch123> home-made encryption in php :)
22:20:09  <frosch123> i wonder whether the author came up with that on their own, or whether they got it from a medieval book
22:20:25  <andythenorth> "I forgot where I got this from but these 2 methods are pretty handy."
22:20:40  <peter1138> I've seen a version of that from ASP.
22:21:55  <Rubidium> well... that encryption is at least better than plain base64_encode or ROT13
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22:26:11  <peter1138> Yes, it's used by SagePay as a "if your language is too stupid to have libraries, you can protect values with this" system.
22:26:21  <peter1138> Hence, ASP :p
22:26:49  <peter1138> Where encryption would be done horribly in VB, or implemented as a COM object, so still done horribly.
22:29:25  <argoneus> ayy
22:30:30  * andythenorth for bed
22:30:31  <andythenorth> bye
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22:45:11  <Wolf01> 'night
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