Log for #openttd on 17th November 2014:
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06:28:18  <horazont> FUZxxl: yes, cargodist and passengers is an incredibly fun combination.
06:28:42  <horazont> I found myself going for passengers even though I planned to do a freight oriented game
06:28:51  <horazont> (running a city-oriented game script probably helped)
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08:25:52  <planetmaker> moin
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09:03:01  <Pikkaphone> boin planetmaker
09:06:19  <peter1138> Is it a bad feature?
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09:07:18  <Pikkaphone> is moin a bad feature?
09:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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09:12:58  <Pikkaphone> well
09:13:08  <Pikkaphone> there you go
09:16:09  <FUZxxl> horazont: In my last game, I managed to produce this railway network by 2050:
09:19:21  <__ln__> is that copied from somewhere or did you draw it?
09:20:40  <FUZxxl> __ln__: Have a look at the source. All hand-drawn.
09:20:45  <horazont> cool shit
09:20:47  <FUZxxl> With a text editor.
09:21:24  <__ln__> cool
09:21:24  <horazont> with working timetables?
09:21:39  <FUZxxl> horazont: What do you mean?
09:22:02  <FUZxxl> The trains aren't time-tabled but there are so many, a train will arrive about every third day.
09:22:12  <FUZxxl> The ferries and busses are though.
09:22:13  <horazont> mhm
09:22:26  <horazont> i was wondering whether timetabling makes sense for trains :)
09:23:14  <FUZxxl> Some bus-lines aren't marked in that diagram, only those lines are marked that connect at least two stations that are also serviced by train
09:23:41  <FUZxxl> the top left MÃŒhlstadt--MichelsbrÃŒck line is a ferry, the other one is a bus.
09:24:57  <FUZxxl> horazont: I don't think you can set up time-tables for trains.
09:25:07  <FUZxxl> The time-table button doesn't even exist for them.
09:25:40  <FUZxxl> BTW, is there a setting that makes trains do maintenance without non-stop orders?
09:26:15  <FUZxxl> Right now, if a train wants maintenance, it looks like the train adds a non-stop order to the nearest depot to its orders.
09:26:28  <FUZxxl> This fucks up schedules because the train misses implicit stops.
09:26:56  <FUZxxl> Is there a setting so the train will still stop when it reaches a station on its way to the depot?
09:30:20  <horazont> huh, my trains have a Timetable option
09:30:43  <horazont> dunno about the non-stop thing though, I always explicitly add all stations (and all service orders, because some depots are hard to reach)
09:32:04  <peter1138> Hand-drawn? Seems a lot of effort :S
09:33:46  <FUZxxl> peter1138: It's okay. I drew the plan on engeneering paper (Karopapier) and transferred the coordinates into the SVG.
09:34:06  <FUZxxl> If you look at the source you can see that I use various transformations to make my life easier.
09:34:24  <FUZxxl> For instance, the whole thing is scaled to an appropriate size so the coordinates become manageable.
09:34:36  <FUZxxl> I think that one was about 6 hours of work.
09:36:39  <FUZxxl> 7/10 would recommend to do.
09:41:34  <horazont> FUZxxl: did you develop the lines station by station or did you accumulate a certain amount of money and then built everything in one go?
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09:45:43  <FUZxxl> horazont: In the beginning I build station per station but then the lines made enough money for me to stop worrying.
09:45:50  <FUZxxl> Actually I had problems spending all that money.
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09:46:16  <FUZxxl> I made some mistakes though which caused lots of traffic jams.
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09:47:53  <horazont> mhm
09:48:10  <horazont> did you first go for long distance (trains) or for short distance (busses etc)
09:49:08  <FUZxxl> horazont: long distance.
09:49:39  <FUZxxl> In the beginning I try to find two cities places about 30 fields apart, which is around the maximum you can afford with the start money.
09:49:56  <FUZxxl> And I invest in the best steam engines I can get.
09:50:12  <FUZxxl> Because the money output is somewhat proportional to the speed your trains do.
09:51:08  <planetmaker> horazont, initially it often is a good idea to get one nice money-maker going. That best is done by a train going as long a distance for a reasonable route as you can afford
09:51:27  <planetmaker> what you do then when you have enough money... that's just playing around and making nice things :P
09:53:28  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: I have found something that looks like a bug with path-signals.
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09:54:15  <FUZxxl> Consider the case that you have one track with a path signal. One train wait in front of the path signal, the other stays right behind it.
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09:54:46  <FUZxxl> When you flip the direction of the path signal, the train that was once before the path signal starts and crashes into the other train.
09:55:14  <FUZxxl> This behavior is annoying because you have to be really careful when changing the direction of path signals. This does not happen with any other signal type.
09:55:25  <FUZxxl> Including one-way path signals for obvious reason.s
09:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> do not change signals when trains are near
09:56:38  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: I know that this is a good idea. But sometimes live-surgery is required.
09:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> also, ctrl+click the train to immediately stop it
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09:56:52  <FUZxxl> For instance, when resolving interlocks or when signals are placed incorrectly.
09:56:57  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: I shall remember that.
09:57:27  <FUZxxl> Am I correct in the intuition that path signals act as no signal at all from behind?
09:57:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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09:57:59  <FUZxxl> ok.
09:58:16  <FUZxxl> This explains why stations with path signals work the way they do.
09:58:59  <horazont> meh. monorail sucks with hills
09:59:39  <FUZxxl> horazont: Everything sucks with hills and monorail sucks in general.
09:59:45  <FUZxxl> See it as a challenge.
10:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> enable "realistic" acceleration
10:00:29  <horazont> ah no
10:00:35  <horazont> Eddi|zuHause: that was it :)
10:00:48  <horazont> I’m on my notebook, without my year-long hand-crafted settings :(
10:00:58  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: Or as I prefer to say “nerfed acceleration”
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10:08:59  * FUZxxl loves semaphores.
10:09:38  <FUZxxl> I usually build all conventional and electrified railway networks with semaphores and only when I switch to maglev I start to place light-signals.
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10:19:13  <FUZxxl> horazont: I have found one big mistake in my previous games.
10:19:39  <FUZxxl> This station layout fails spectacularily under medium to high load:
10:21:22  <Pikkaphone> the original acceleration model is a bad feature, it should be removed. :)
10:21:55  <Pikkaphone> along with inflation and planespeeds < 1/1.
10:22:11  <planetmaker> FUZxxl, changing signals which are in use is never a safe operation and crashes caused by that are never a bug
10:23:35  <planetmaker> tehehe, Pikka :) But I agree, I think 'realistic' acceleration should be default. As should be 'forbid 90° turns for trains'
10:23:38  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: I can see that removing signals is dangerous, but I was under the impression that changing signal types / directions is always safe.
10:23:44  <FUZxxl> Aparently that is not true.
10:24:07  <Pikkaphone> and non-path signals, remove those too. :)
10:24:19  <planetmaker> not true indeed. Any alteration of signals which are in use is dangerous
10:24:19  <peter1138> +1
10:25:11  <planetmaker> Pikka, it could be changed such the default signal is the path signal and the default signals only cycles through path signals (it's an existing setting anyway)
10:25:19  <planetmaker> it just doesn't influence gui, iirc. Dunno
10:25:32  <Pikkaphone> fuzxxl: turning a two-way path signal around is "removing" the signal if a train is waiting at / approaching it, surely?
10:25:41  <Pikkaphone> that's right planetmaker
10:26:13  <FUZxxl> Pikkaphone: Could we get proper two-way path signals?
10:26:20  <Pikkaphone> but the olde presignals serve mostly to confuse new players
10:26:25  <FUZxxl> I.e. signals that behave like two-way block signals just more path-y?
10:26:42  <peter1138> no
10:26:48  <Pikkaphone> I don't see that those would be useful, fuz
10:27:04  <Pikkaphone> they'd be inherently jam-creating
10:27:24  <peter1138> Safe waiting point on either side? Useful?
10:27:29  <FUZxxl> Pikkaphone: Well, they would be useful to replace two-way block signals.
10:27:31  <peter1138> (No)
10:27:33  <FUZxxl> peter1138: yes.
10:27:39  <Pikkaphone> no
10:27:46  <planetmaker> FUZxxl, that's not a useful replacement
10:28:00  <planetmaker> two-way block signals are also usually inherently useless
10:28:08  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: k.
10:28:27  <peter1138> Even in TT :D
10:28:33  <Pikkaphone> yes
10:28:44  <Pikkaphone> where they were the only signal
10:29:19  <Pikkaphone> iirc?
10:29:22  <FUZxxl> Pikkaphone: hehe
10:29:23  <peter1138> zactly
10:29:37  <Pikkaphone> good old tto
10:29:41  <FUZxxl> how did people manage to build complex railways in TT?
10:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be a really simple patch to make the signal gui filter based on the signal cycle settings...
10:30:06  <Pikkaphone> yes, eddi. do it!
10:30:12  <planetmaker> it would, Eddi|zuHause
10:30:22  <Pikkaphone> and make the default path only. :)
10:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: i made a one-way track system by inserting helper stations at the end, so the trains would only go on the right track
10:30:43  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: how can I imagine that to work?
10:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: but it's vulnerable when a train turns around because of a jam
10:30:55  <FUZxxl> 'k
10:31:14  <peter1138> Basically, you don't make complex railways in TT.
10:31:20  <FUZxxl> Using stations for routing has a point.
10:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: like a waypoint
10:31:36  <Eddi|zuHause> only that there were no waypoints
10:31:39  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: That's what I wanted to say but you were faster.
10:32:06  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, isn't it "waypoints"?
10:32:15  <planetmaker> no waypoints in TT even?
10:32:46  <peter1138> No, no waypoints in TT or TTD.
10:32:49  <Pikkaphone> no waypoints in tto or ttd
10:32:52  <peter1138> :S
10:33:07  <Pikkaphone> kzacly
10:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the first attempt at waypoints was the "TTDPatch-style Non-Stop handling"
10:33:24  <Pikkaphone> mm ttdpatch
10:33:35  <Pikkaphone> well superior to openttd :)
10:33:45  <peter1138> The confusing wrong non-stop handing...
10:33:52  <peter1138> +l
10:34:23  <FUZxxl> peter1138: I'm still confused about the two styles of non-stop orders.
10:34:39  <Pikkaphone> the lack of custombridgeheads makes openttd basically unplayable
10:34:44  <FUZxxl> One was “no implicit stops” and the other was “just pass through, do not actually stop”
10:34:46  <peter1138> FUZxxl, one is stupid, one is right.
10:35:11  <peter1138> "don't actually stop" is the stupid case.
10:36:01  <FUZxxl> peter1138: can you implement a feature that unscheduled maintenance does not behave like a non-stop order?
10:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD is such a messy conglomeration of misfeatures... why would anyone ever play this game?
10:36:08  <FUZxxl> It messes up my lines.
10:36:19  <Pikkaphone> there is such a feature
10:36:26  <FUZxxl> Pikkaphone: What is it called?
10:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: just use "servce at depot" orders
10:36:38  <Pikkaphone> it's called scheduled maintenance ;)
10:36:45  <Pikkaphone> exactly eddi
10:37:15  <FUZxxl> hrmpf... I tried hard to avoid placing explicit service orders.
10:37:27  <FUZxxl> but if there is no other solution...
10:37:30  <Pikkaphone> also "implicit orders" in general suck
10:37:36  <FUZxxl> couldn't you just patch this in really quick?
10:37:48  <FUZxxl> Pikkaphone: I love 'em.
10:37:58  <Pikkaphone> how would it work, fuz?
10:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: you could reduce the maximum penalty for depot visits, then "early" visits will be unlikely
10:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> (but that probably makes many trains not find a depot at all)
10:38:26  <Pikkaphone> bearing in mind "implicit orders" don't really exist
10:38:28  <FUZxxl> Pikkaphone: Well, a game setting so that if a train decides it needs maintenance, it will still stop at stations it encounters inbetween.
10:38:47  <FUZxxl> Right now, if the train decides it needs maintenance, it passes through all stations until it reaches the depot.
10:38:49  <Pikkaphone> but are just a record of the incidental stations the train has hit
10:38:55  <FUZxxl> WHich is bad if you rely on implicit stops.
10:39:40  <Pikkaphone> make everything explicit is the best solution
10:40:02  <Pikkaphone> both stations and depots
10:40:04  <FUZxxl> Pikkaphone: hrmpf hrmpf
10:40:07  <FUZxxl> 'kay
10:40:22  <Pikkaphone> everything else is too "I want the game to read my mind"
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11:10:43  <argoneus> ayy
11:11:27  <peter1138> New orders are 'non-stop' by default
11:11:30  <peter1138> I suppose...
11:12:03  <peter1138> Implicit orders are for lazy people :D
11:12:28  <b_jonas> peter1138: I think that's a setting, but it's the practical one
11:12:30  <peter1138> And they generally break when you add those extra lines to relieve congestion.
11:16:21  <planetmaker> yeah. Implicit orders imho rather find their use in trying to understand where a train goes other than the intended destinations
11:22:16  <Pikkaphone> implicit orders and non-non-stop orders are a bad feature :)
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11:23:58  <planetmaker> Pikka, the implicit orders are no orders. They're really only a history of what happened :)
11:24:25  <planetmaker> basically an account of what mayhem the non-non-stop orders caused
11:24:48  <planetmaker> the implicit orders are used no-where except in the GUI
11:25:08  <planetmaker> as aid to understand what you did :)
11:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> they are used in cargodist
11:25:43  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is the entire point of why they were added)
11:26:39  <planetmaker> true, cargodist needs knowledge of the history of where the train went.
11:26:43  <peter1138> Eh, they were added long before cargodist, weren't they?
11:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:26:54  <planetmaker> but indeed they were added a long time before CDist
11:27:24  <planetmaker> yet the fact remains, implicit orders do not influence where a train goes, ever :)
11:27:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but i doubt they would have been considered for adding if cargodist wouldn't have been lingering
11:43:48  <Pikkaphone> I know
11:44:50  <Pikkaphone> they're confusing though, which is why they (and the non-non-stop orders which engender them) should be removed, planetmaker ;)
11:51:06  <planetmaker> Pikka, but but! They were added in order to reduce confusion :)
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11:51:36  <planetmaker> (and yet, I think I can agree with the conclusion that non-non stop might better be hidden by default)
11:51:50  <planetmaker> though implicit orders should not. They're a nice debug tool
11:51:57  <Pikkaphone> never mind hidden by default, just remove them. ;)
11:52:11  <planetmaker> that breaks all existing savegames :)
11:52:18  <Pikkaphone> what a shame
11:52:35  <Pikkaphone> okay, hidden by default then
11:52:41  <planetmaker> our removal thus often is just putting it in a well-closed and hidden box :P
11:52:50  <Pikkaphone> and non path signals too. :(
11:52:55  <Pikkaphone> *:)
11:53:18  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: what other things were removed by hiding them in a well-hidden box?
11:53:22  <planetmaker> well, they should still have a GUI setting to turn them on. I don't want to fight the outcry to remove them from GUI :P
11:53:28  <peter1138> Bah @ power cuts :S
11:53:48  <Pikkaphone> remove from gui!
11:54:15  <peter1138> Silly. Remove them, break savegames, who cares?
11:54:22  <planetmaker> FUZxxl, useless settings :P
11:54:27  <Pikkaphone> or make a new gui, "bad features"
11:54:38  <peter1138> Just pause the game, stop all trains, remove all signals :p
11:54:42  <planetmaker> :)
11:54:42  <peter1138> (non-path)
11:55:32  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: for example?
11:55:47  <planetmaker> allow build on slopes yes/no
11:55:58  <planetmaker> allow irregular stations yes/no
11:56:08  <FUZxxl> ok
11:56:10  <planetmaker> all this crap where there's no point to forbid
11:56:11  <Pikkaphone> non-nons, presigs, original acceleration, inflation, all in the bad feature box. :)
11:56:31  <FUZxxl> I wonder why original accel. is still the default setting in some installations.
11:56:38  <Pikkaphone> no point to forbid = remove from gui altogether
11:56:39  <planetmaker> no-one noticed that difficulty levels are gon :)
11:56:56  <planetmaker> original accel is the default for all installations
11:57:47  <peter1138> Which is annoying :S
11:58:28  <peter1138> I still think we should revert the status bar date change :p
12:00:28  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: difficulty levels?
12:00:33  <FUZxxl> What did they do=
12:01:46  <peter1138> Changed some settings that may have possibly been considered as affecting the difficulty of the game, at some point.
12:02:17  <FUZxxl> ok
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12:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> original accel is the default for all installations <-- that was part of my default settings review, but it was rejected for some reason
12:28:52  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes... I'm sure I voted in favour of that even the last time already :)
12:29:03  <planetmaker> but then, settings rather regularily need review as things change :)
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12:39:51  <Pikkaphone> who votes on these things? :)
12:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure either :p
12:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> we should demand government transparency!
12:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> arm the torches and pitf... i mean smartphones and hashtags!
12:44:42  <planetmaker> :)
12:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that IS what the angry mobs of today are using, right?
12:46:31  <planetmaker> IS is the angry mob of today?
12:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't file IS under "angry mob"
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12:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't even be surprised if they hired a US-based think tank for their propaganda work
12:56:05  <planetmaker> Pikka, de-facto I think we gathered the opinions and arguments on settings, dunno whether only here or also on forums and then reviewed them again, also in the light of how it works with old games and for newbie players. Of course our own opinion played absolutely no role in that process ;)
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13:00:20  <peter1138> How many old games are there which don't have settings saved in them?
13:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily treat default values for new installations and default values for old savegames differently...
13:03:17  <Eddi|zuHause> just put them in AfterLoadGame
13:03:36  <planetmaker> of course :)
13:03:56  <planetmaker> but you know people. If you change too much at once, they start to cry :)
13:04:06  <planetmaker> just feed them every day a little and they'll be happy :P
13:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> or extend the macros of settings.ini
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13:05:21  <peter1138> So after the power cut, my machine hung during the BIOS, just before GRUB boots. I thought the SSD has been killed for a moment, but it worked the second go. :S
13:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i had something like this, and it resolved after i shuffled around the SATA ports
13:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i have 6 ports on one controller, and 2 ports on another controller
13:08:31  <Pikka> it's filthy and corrupt authoritarianism, planetmaker
13:08:40  <Pikka> I shall take my newgrfs and go home. :)
13:09:44  <Eddi|zuHause> make a final release that removes all the useful features and upset your whole fanbase before you go
13:16:15  <Pikka> I already did that
13:16:22  <Pikka> weren't you paying attention to NARS 2.5? ;)
13:18:02  <Marshy> I'm still upset
13:18:06  <Marshy> ;)
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13:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause> of course i was... :p
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13:42:55  <argoneus> why did someone design combinatorics :(
13:43:02  <argoneus> so many confusing exercises with multiple outcomes
13:44:09  <blathijs> argoneus: I suspect because they had a problem to solve :-)
13:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> of course combinatorics, like all other maths, was designed by $deity
13:58:44  <peter1138>
13:58:47  <peter1138> Err... what?
13:59:55  <planetmaker> Strange humor. It translates to 'bad decision'.
14:02:25  <peter1138> Yeah, it's the "mothertongue of Hitler" bit... :p
14:02:44  <peter1138> (Although mother and tongue are hard to spell, I guess)
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14:04:00  <Eddi|zuHause> actually more like "unnice decision"
14:21:54  <FUZxxl> For high-speed trains, will there ever be a system similar to the Linienzugbeeinflussung?
14:23:10  <FUZxxl> Also, I'd love if there were actual pre-signals (signals that repeat the aspect of the corresponding main signal and the train will start slowing down if it sees a halting aspect on a pre-signal)=
14:23:35  <FUZxxl> I imagine the degree of realism could be improved with that kind of signals.
14:26:08  <peter1138> "Linienzugbeeinflussung" what the fuck kind of word is that?
14:26:26  <FUZxxl>
14:26:47  <Marshy> That's one impressive word
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14:27:07  <FUZxxl> “line shaped train influencing” as an alternative to the usual Punktzugbeeinflussing “point shaped train influencing” aka indusi
14:27:58  <FUZxxl> s/Punktzugb/punktförmige Zug B/
14:28:11  <FUZxxl> Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussing
14:28:15  <FUZxxl> Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussung
14:28:18  <FUZxxl> I can't spell
14:31:11  <planetmaker> peter1138, it's like external train control in order to allow higher speeds than visual signaling allows
14:31:18  <planetmaker> and denser track usage
14:31:40  <FUZxxl> This would only make sense of course if trains showed realistic braking behavior in front of signals
14:31:55  <FUZxxl> Right now, they are able to stop immediately when in front of a “halt” aspect
14:33:07  <peter1138> planetmaker, but that doesn't need to be a single word :S
14:33:31  <FUZxxl> peter1138: it's German; of course it does.
14:33:52  <FUZxxl> If you want to words, you can still say “Linienförmige Zugbeeinflussung”
14:34:07  <planetmaker> peter1138, it does. German is not English
14:35:15  <planetmaker> for better readability you could spell it Linienzug-Beeinflussung. But then, the word itself even without hyphen is quite readable
14:35:33  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: That would be misleading
14:35:41  <FUZxxl> better spell it Linien-Zugbeeinflussung
14:35:43  <planetmaker> true :)
14:36:37  <FUZxxl> Can we have catastrophies where the train disregards a signal?
14:36:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or spell it LZB?
14:36:53  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: What would be the fun with that variant?
14:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there is absolutely no point in the game for LZB...
14:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> with or without "realistic" slowing down, you can just make the signals arbitrarily dense
14:39:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have the speed limits or distance limits that real signals have
14:44:50  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: With realistic slow-downs, trains might have no chance to stop in front of a singal showing “halt”
14:45:04  <FUZxxl> if the signal is not far away enough.
14:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably not be implemented that way
14:46:41  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: I want this as an option for a more difficult game.
14:46:49  <FUZxxl> I see building railway networks as a challenge.
14:47:00  <planetmaker> that wouldn't make the game more difficult
14:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> more annoying for sure
14:47:58  <FUZxxl> you could also add a patch that makes trains slow down when they hit a switch
14:48:33  <FUZxxl> since in real life, trains have to slow down when going over a switch set to something that is not straight ahead
14:48:53  <planetmaker> they don't have to. You just have to have the right switches
14:49:10  <FUZxxl> I
14:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: there are two ways this would reasonably be implemented: a) the train automatically slows down when the reservation ahead is too short and cannot be extended, or b) the distance between two signals (= maximum stopping distance) limits the speed on the entire track
14:49:23  <FUZxxl> I'm pretty sure trains in real life cannot go over a switch with 500 km/h
14:49:38  <planetmaker> I'm pretty sure there are no 500 km/h regular trains
14:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: there are switches with 200km/h on the branching side
14:49:52  <FUZxxl> really?
14:49:57  <planetmaker> yes
14:50:22  <FUZxxl> oh yeah, I see now.
14:50:55  <FUZxxl> these look like that:
14:52:02  <Eddi|zuHause> these pictures usually use very distorting lenses
14:52:36  <planetmaker> actually wiki even lists 280 km/h as regular switches in use by DB
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14:53:23  <planetmaker> and I'm pretty sure the TGV I recently used went over switches at its designated max speed, 320 km/h
14:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, with the crude game mechanincs you'll have difficulty defining which is the branching side of the switch
14:54:01  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's the straight side, usually
14:54:35  <planetmaker> also, that's a detail, branching side or straight, which definitely does not need modeling - or I see how it would anything to the game fun I would experience
14:55:11  <planetmaker> add a "don't" where appropriate and modify grammar elsewhere until it makes sense ;)
14:55:29  <FUZxxl> As you see, everybody has different expectations from OpenTTD.
14:56:09  <__ln__>
14:58:11  <planetmaker> FUZxxl, yes, that sure. But this system would not add anything which a player could satisfyably manage
14:59:19  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: Well, if I see the junctions some people construct, I honestly doubt that.
14:59:23  <planetmaker> it wouldn't introduce even any new aspect to take into account. Other than forcing a greater train separation. Which you can already do by simply using bigger signal spacing
14:59:38  <FUZxxl> yeah.
14:59:41  <planetmaker> FUZxxl, they would still do that. Whatever signal systems you provide
15:00:11  <planetmaker> and no, we do not want to force them to play 'proper', neither by yours nor by my standards. Nor anyone's else
15:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> some people certainly seem to think that way :p
15:00:39  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: That's not what I tried to say.
15:00:59  <FUZxxl> I tried to say that I believe that some players would like such complexity.
15:01:45  <planetmaker> and I tried to say that it wouldn't even add a complexity which you can't have already ;)
15:02:31  <Pikka> <peter1138> Err... what? <- if that post deserved a reply, the reply would be "whatever". but it doesn't. :)
15:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you're entirely free to make junctions with a lower speed railtype
15:03:42  <Pikka> mm, tasty realism
15:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: just answer with a random string of german words. "Jawohl! Achtung! Verboten!" ...
15:04:00  <Pikka> geblungen mitteraus cor blimey
15:04:06  <Eddi|zuHause> "Gesundheit"
15:04:20  <Pikka> ich bin ein hamburger
15:04:41  <FUZxxl> It's funny that in all the games where I played with passenger transportation only, I have never felt the need to place a single junction
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15:05:21  <FUZxxl> except for that temporary one when I exchanged two line parts
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15:40:02  <horazont> hm, my buses sometimes abuse tram stations
15:40:04  <horazont> trams are not amused
15:40:09  <horazont> is this intended?
15:40:31  <peter1138> What's the difference between a tram and a bus stop?
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15:41:41  <andythenorth> ha ha Pikka’s thread just got godwined
15:41:43  <andythenorth> :)
15:41:48  <andythenorth> not seen that for a while
15:41:48  <Pikka> praps
15:42:05  <Pikka> so I think I'm finished my pineappletrains update
15:42:07  <andythenorth> hello pika
15:42:10  <Pikka> hallo
15:42:34  <planetmaker> hm, pineapples. Gonna cut and slice it and devour it in little chunks ;)
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15:43:11  * andythenorth untypes some trolling :)
15:43:26  <Alberth> o/
15:44:35  <Pikka> does he, though?
15:44:42  <andythenorth> apparently
15:45:18  <peter1138> I spent ages making sounds working, and you go and do this!
15:45:40  <peter1138> I should clearly have spent more time on my proof-reading instead.
15:47:32  <Pikka> did you though?
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15:53:55  <Pikka> andythenorth,
15:55:25  <andythenorth> ooh
15:55:27  <andythenorth> such realisms :)
15:55:34  <andythenorth> I like the red and white one
15:55:40  <andythenorth> and the white and red one
15:55:51  <andythenorth> and the yellow and blue one
15:56:07  <Pikka> what about the grey and grey one?
15:56:09  <andythenorth> and the orange and black one
15:56:14  <andythenorth> the grey and grey one is ok
15:56:17  <andythenorth> this could take a while
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16:12:41  <Alberth> the bottom part of the front looks a bit weird to me, I'd expect the streamline upper part to be continued down to the ground
16:12:58  <andythenorth> shark innit
16:13:13  <andythenorth>
16:13:22  <Alberth> now it looks a bit like a carriage with a cabin put on top of it
16:13:40  <andythenorth> see how much realisms Pikka has done?
16:14:04  <Pikka> something like that :)
16:14:13  <Alberth> fair enough :)
16:14:26  <Pikka>
16:14:46  <andythenorth> Alberth:
16:14:53  <Alberth> yeah, /me blames the original manufacturer
16:14:54  <andythenorth> ^ that’s more of a stuck on cabin imo :D
16:15:12  <Pikka> hah
16:15:23  <andythenorth> Krauss Maffei thing
16:15:37  <peter1138> I wouldn't like to climb that ladder.
16:16:11  <Alberth> you aren't supposed to do that while it's riding :p
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17:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ... or while it's below a catenary
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19:18:55  <Wolf01> oddink
19:19:42  <Taede> ello
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19:23:51  <Wolf01> have you seen my cat?
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19:29:43  <andythenorth> hrm
19:29:47  <andythenorth> no cat
19:29:50  <andythenorth> seen a Wolf01
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19:30:18  <andythenorth> also a Frosch
19:30:24  <andythenorth> so many animals
19:30:25  <andythenorth> but no cat
19:32:54  <frosch123> BAD FEATURE? no cat?
19:34:54  <Wolf01> mine is to the doctor :(
19:37:14  <Alberth> wouldn't that means it getting well again?
19:39:33  <Wolf01> I don't know, it fast-forward-aged the last week, now he is a bit broken and depressed
19:40:47  <Alberth> a little crack in the time-space continuum at your home perhaps, hopefully it gets well soon
19:42:44  <Wolf01> he is really old, I won't expect anything
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19:57:11  <andythenorth> hrm
19:57:16  <andythenorth> startup disk needs repaired
19:57:18  <andythenorth> well
19:57:24  <andythenorth> everything is probably in git anyway :P
19:57:28  <andythenorth> biab, I hope
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20:06:07  <planetmaker> salut
20:06:55  <frosch123> peng
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20:07:52  <V453000> yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
20:07:59  <V453000> yeti managed to compile pm :P
20:08:06  <V453000> thanks for fiddling, whatever you did :D
20:08:11  <frosch123> is "manpage" a language that is interesting to learn?
20:08:20  <frosch123> it looks like assembler
20:09:01  <planetmaker> V453000, I fixed the compile farm ;)
20:09:07  <V453000> (:
20:09:11  <Xaroth|Work> frosch123: it looks like brainfuck
20:09:28  <frosch123> i don't know that either, but it sounds like it is not worth learning :p
20:09:29  <Wolf01> don't do that V, I almost broke my neck
20:10:58  <V453000> Wolf01: ?
20:11:04  <Wolf01> the smile
20:11:08  <V453000> pft
20:11:10  <V453000> (:
20:11:17  <V453000> :)
20:11:18  <V453000> (.
20:11:18  <Wolf01> <<crack>>
20:11:20  <V453000> go exercise
20:11:22  <V453000> :D
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20:14:40  <frosch123> "An ancient variation from Bill Joy, still shipped by Sun Microsystems." <- yeah, that sounds like solaris
20:14:50  <frosch123> (from the "troff" wiki page)
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20:21:16  <Wolf01> memories of BASIC... TRON/TROFF.. so many times
20:21:44  <Wolf01> (I know it's a different argument)
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21:14:12  <MArshy> Hallo
21:14:31  <MArshy> Can anyone assist and tell me what roads are being used in these screens for the Swedish houses set?
21:14:33  <MArshy>
21:23:30  <planetmaker> probably some publicly not available ones
21:25:07  <MArshy> Sigh, yeah, most likely
21:38:32  <andythenorth> bye
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21:40:41  <Sylf> that first screen shot looks like north american roads, the dirt roads of the early years
21:43:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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