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Log for #openttd on 17th December 2014:
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10:25:09  <supermop> yo
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13:09:38  <supermop> quiet day
13:15:11  <planetmaker> quite day
13:16:48  <supermop> quite night here
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13:20:36  <planetmaker> not quite day here. Not sure I want to call it that. Rain, haze, not really bright at all
13:21:01  <planetmaker> but it's probably as much day as one can expect in this season ;)
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13:28:08  <supermop> flying back to northern hemisphere on saturday, as apparently i am an idiot and need to go back to miserable weather
13:28:16  <supermop> no snow in germany?
13:28:55  <planetmaker> depends on altitude. No snow in lowlands
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13:29:09  <planetmaker> there is snow probably at 500+ metres or so
13:29:27  <planetmaker> maybe 300+
13:29:50  <planetmaker> it's like 5°C outside and dropping slightly below 0°C during night
13:34:10  <supermop> were i am from we would occasionally get snow at similar temperatures that would just melt as it landed
13:34:46  <supermop> but we had different wind/precipitation patterns
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13:40:25  <supermop> of course the weather is beautiful down here just as i am about to leave it
13:43:09  <planetmaker> you're in down under, or where?
13:44:09  <supermop> living in melbourne for the past year
13:44:25  <supermop> as my fiance came here for a masters degree
13:45:12  <planetmaker> aye. supposedly a nice place, though I never made it there when I was visiting australia
13:45:37  <supermop> very nice in the spring and summer, the winter is quite rainy
13:46:07  <supermop> the flight from here tto my parents place will be quite the ordeal
13:46:30  <supermop> but involves a 787-9, so hopefully more comfortable
13:54:19  <argoneus> a380 best
13:54:52  <supermop> not for comfort
13:55:32  <argoneus> well if you are a pilot.....
13:55:39  <argoneus> the cockpit is huge
13:55:41  <supermop> ive taken korean air a380s between jfk and incheon, and it's not much better than being in a beat up 747
13:56:39  <supermop> im sure first and bussiness are nice, but being in economy with that many people across is no fun no matter the plane
13:57:41  <supermop> the 787-8 i took in april was noticeably more relaxing even though it was in a budget economy seat, the more natural air pressure and moisture helps a lot
14:00:53  <__ln__> how many seats (economy) per row in an a380?
14:08:10  <supermop> i recall 3-6-3 but i may have been 3-5-3
14:08:31  <supermop> this was lower level of a Korea Air one
14:08:42  <supermop> unsure if other carriers do the same
14:09:34  <planetmaker> commercial flights themselves in economy generally are not exacly my idea of a fun thing to do
14:10:02  <planetmaker> for long distance at least it's rather uncomfortable. Independent of the actual plane you have barely any space
14:11:12  <V453000> never flew long distance and had enough already
14:11:40  <planetmaker> not worth it really. Except some destinations, but sure not the flights themselves
14:12:21  <planetmaker> I mean, sometimes the view from the windows is quite nice, but... meh
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14:50:28  <andythenorth> o/
14:50:47  <planetmaker> \o
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15:05:39  <Jinassi> completely offtopic to the game, but does anyone have any firefox addon to capture entire webpage as a jpeg or something?
15:10:25  <andythenorth> it’s not what you asked but http://phantomjs.org/screen-capture.html
15:11:02  <andythenorth> or just search the firefox addons
15:11:03  <andythenorth> dunno
15:11:12  <andythenorth> that’s all I’m going to do to answer your question
15:11:17  <andythenorth> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/awesome-screenshot-capture-/
15:11:23  <andythenorth> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/nimbus-sc
15:11:30  <andythenorth> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/fireshot/
15:11:31  <Jinassi> trying a few out, wanted to see if anyone has any faveourites
15:11:43  <andythenorth> :)
15:14:12  <Jinassi> some fuckers decided to end game support after it succesfully launched of kickstarter and been on steam for half a year, grrr. With shitlots of bugs still present and promised updates and mod support
15:14:34  <argoneus> whoa
15:14:34  <andythenorth> kickstarter
15:14:37  <andythenorth> scamstarter
15:14:40  <Jinassi> mhm
15:14:50  <andythenorth> I am not anti-crowdfunding in any way
15:14:55  <andythenorth> but there is a coming backlash
15:15:00  <andythenorth> it favours snake oil
15:15:25  <andythenorth> the projects that win big are those that have the slickest pitch, from really nice sounding people
15:15:26  <Jinassi> well, funding is divided by FFF( friends, family, fools)
15:15:29  <andythenorth> with lots of benefits
15:15:49  <andythenorth> it’s an easy way for very plausible people to make easy money
15:16:15  <andythenorth> in most cases, you actually have to be quite a fucker to run a successful product company
15:16:19  <planetmaker> the two things I've funded turned out quite decent so far and not scammy. But yes... there is a risk
15:16:33  <andythenorth> it’s probably 80:20 legit: scam
15:16:46  <andythenorth> and the scams are scams of wishful thinking rather than malice I think
15:16:54  <planetmaker> 80:20 again ;)
15:16:58  <andythenorth> I dunno, I’ve been around the kind of people who get funded a lot
15:17:19  <andythenorth> plausibility and delivering are different kinds of people
15:17:44  <andythenorth> also most business plans are wrong
15:17:50  <planetmaker> anyhow, kickstarter is a gamble. You should not need to rely on it to work out. Any development is a bet on the future. You can't always win
15:17:52  <andythenorth> and most business models don’t survive the first 3 customers
15:18:01  * andythenorth is full of beans today
15:18:23  <planetmaker> baked beans? ;)
15:18:36  <andythenorth> also biab
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15:34:08  <planetmaker> so, seems the Spanish publishers discover the same truth as the German ones: it simply doesn't work to force someone to pay them in order to send users their way
15:39:49  <Jinassi> they need a good Pied Piper of Hamelin
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16:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> research into the truth of fairy tales suggested that the actual pied piper of hamelin was a venue to develop new lands in the east that recruited the youths that saw no perspective/job opportunities in their hometown
16:19:21  <peter1138> Jinassi, what game?
16:22:14  <Jinassi> Spintires
16:23:02  <Jinassi> original developer from Poland is still making updates and adding more dlc's. Publisher/developer Oove.co.uk tokk the ash and split
16:23:12  <Jinassi> took the cash
16:23:18  <Jinassi> i want to tear them a new asshole
16:23:58  <Jinassi> 1 guy making the game and a whole team to rub nipples and pocket the cash from sales
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17:14:38  <peter1138> That's what happens when you spell tyres incorrectly.
17:19:12  <Jinassi> tire is spelled in US and Canada, while tyre is being used elswere. A lot of words were changed, just so "new world" can feel empowered. All I see is a bit "dumbed down" English.
17:27:09  <__ln__> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/us-cuba-relations.html?_r=3
17:29:34  <peter1138> Hmm
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18:55:20  <andythenorth> o/
18:57:48  <andythenorth> ou est le chat?
19:15:04  <Alberth> hi hi
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19:45:39  <Wolf01> hi hi o/
19:47:47  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
19:49:57  <V453000> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pr3mzns7o
19:49:58  <V453000> :0
19:50:10  <V453000> why is this failing to compile at the first line of the template?
19:50:16  <V453000> is the template testing itself with 0 values
19:50:31  <V453000> or is nmlc just not giving me the correct line on which exact sprite it fails?
19:50:54  <V453000> it tells me that ypos out of valid range because it is -2048
19:51:03  <V453000> error on line 3 in this paste
19:51:17  <planetmaker> V453000, the paste does not show any error. please post the full error
19:51:22  <V453000> ok
19:51:45  <planetmaker> and the corresponding full code
19:52:56  <V453000> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/NUTS/errrorrrr.png
19:52:58  <Wolf01> did you copy it from stackoverflow? it seem it is the new trend of compile/parsing error :P
19:53:12  <V453000> I dont think there is some other full code pm, the only error it throws is this
19:53:12  <Alberth> x=0, y=1   gives  0-4096 = -4096
19:53:30  <V453000> yes Alberth but I do not have these values in the sprites
19:53:34  <V453000> am quite sure
19:53:56  <V453000> in other words I wanted to ask if this error means that some of my sprites is wrong
19:54:03  <V453000> OR if it means that I simply cant define template this way
19:54:17  <V453000> it would seem to me like some sprite is wrong, BUT nmlc isnt telling me which :(
19:54:18  <Alberth> can you give an instance of the template?
19:54:36  <planetmaker> whatever you also mean with 'hexa code'. x is just a number. The representation doesn't matter
19:54:40  <Alberth> ie there are no concrete x/y values defined anywhere
19:55:07  <V453000> alternative_sprites (spriteset_CHAMELEON4_middle16, ZOOM_LEVEL_IN_4X, BIT_DEPTH_32BPP) 	{template_32bpp_vehicle4_MASK			(0x7F,0,"gfx_32bpp/CHAMI_ENGINES_0000.png","gfx_32bpp/CHAMI_ENGINES_mask_8bpp.png")}
19:55:08  <V453000> example
19:55:22  <planetmaker> and nmlc error is quite clear imho. You *do* end up at negative y
19:55:23  <planetmaker> somewhere
19:55:37  <planetmaker> examples don't help you find the error
19:55:42  <V453000> well yeah but where could that be :d
19:55:52  <Alberth> small x, and big y ?
19:56:04  <V453000> am assuming 7F, because 32-7F gives 2048
19:56:17  <V453000> and -2048 is the error value
19:56:25  <planetmaker> bullshit. 32 - 0x7F = 32 - 128 = -96
19:56:47  <Alberth> @calc 2048 / 32
19:56:47  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 64
19:57:00  <Alberth> x=64 (0x40)  y = 1
19:57:05  <V453000> x 7F, y 0
19:57:21  <V453000> eh 1 :)
19:57:28  <V453000> that would give -2048
19:57:38  <V453000> cause 128*32 - 4096
19:57:40  <Alberth> @calc 0x7f*32-4096
19:57:40  <DorpsGek> Alberth: -32
19:57:57  <V453000> @calc 128*32
19:57:57  <DorpsGek> V453000: 4096
19:58:04  <Alberth> just about 1900 wrong :p
19:58:07  <V453000> ehh :D
19:58:13  <planetmaker> V453000, without the full nml there's not much to discuss
19:58:20  <Alberth> 0x40*32-4096
19:58:28  <planetmaker> other than check where you use the template. everywhere
19:58:30  <Alberth> @calc 0x40*32-4096
19:58:30  <DorpsGek> Alberth: -2048
19:59:44  <planetmaker> and actually my next request will be: show me the full code so that I can compile myself and reproduce that error ;)
20:00:07  <V453000> pm it requires 5GB sprites ...
20:00:28  <V453000> anyway, so I am not searching for 7F, but for half of it
20:00:37  <V453000> which would give 64 not 128
20:00:51  <V453000> @base 64 16
20:00:51  <DorpsGek> V453000: Error: '64' is not a valid base.
20:01:01  <V453000> @base 16 64
20:01:01  <DorpsGek> V453000: 100
20:01:11  <V453000> I dont think that is right XD
20:01:19  <planetmaker> @base 10 16 64
20:01:19  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 40
20:01:24  <V453000> XD ty
20:01:39  <V453000> hmm
20:02:22  <V453000> FUCK
20:02:26  <V453000> I am so retarded
20:02:28  <V453000> this is x1
20:02:32  <V453000> so smaller sprites
20:02:33  <V453000> XD
20:02:38  <V453000> took me a while
20:02:39  <V453000> sorry
20:02:48  <V453000> it should be 2048 ofc
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20:07:20  <Alberth> still, if you'd shown the template instances, we could have pointed out the problem, I think
20:08:29  <V453000> what do you mean by template instance? :/
20:08:35  <planetmaker> the actual code
20:08:41  <V453000> which? :D
20:08:46  <planetmaker> not just snippets of which you thought might work
20:08:50  <planetmaker> or not work
20:08:50  <V453000> I pasted the template, I pasted the spriteset which uses it
20:08:52  <planetmaker> context
20:08:56  <V453000> there is nothing more to it
20:09:12  <V453000> but which contxt :(
20:09:16  <V453000> e :)
20:10:55  <planetmaker> also I wonder why do you work with hex numbers at all?
20:11:09  <V453000> cause nuts uses 16x16 grid for models
20:11:31  <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki/Tech
20:11:36  <planetmaker> use 20x20 and avoid yourself getting confused
20:12:07  <V453000> XD
20:12:09  <planetmaker> there's really no reason to use hexa-alginment
20:12:09  <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6860/Grid.png
20:12:16  <V453000> hm
20:12:32  <planetmaker> other than trying to look smart. And failing sometimes, tripping yourself
20:12:36  <V453000> +-, no, it was just a good starting point
20:12:54  <V453000> since I had 4x4 yeti setup
20:13:18  <V453000> getting it to 16x16 seemed logical
20:13:36  <V453000> is still quite good
20:13:51  <V453000> the template is fine just as well
20:14:17  <planetmaker> except you obviously don't know where to look. without looking up in a table when you look at the sprite(s)
20:14:18  <V453000> just had one sprite with 40 for X and 1 for y by mistake
20:15:10  <planetmaker> but then, not my problem :)
20:15:27  <V453000> that it isnt in any case :D
20:15:31  <V453000> :P
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20:19:36  <Jinassi> Well, got official response, game goes on, dev gets a team to hasten progress any everyone is happy. Sounds like a fairytale.
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20:23:04  <Alberth> V: I meant *all* these:  template_32bpp_vehicle4_MASK   (0x7F,0,.....)
20:23:20  <Alberth> that is, all uses of the template
20:23:25  <V453000> cant grep on windoze :D
20:23:43  <V453000> so I didnt even consider that a possible task XD
20:24:25  <planetmaker> that's why the whole nml...
20:25:07  <V453000> OH XD
20:25:40  <andythenorth> get that man a better compile :P
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20:25:47  <andythenorth> me and V453000 should join forces
20:25:49  <AmongtheSavages> hello?
20:25:51  <V453000> well, the thing seems to compile now XD
20:25:53  <andythenorth> also with Eddi|zuHause
20:25:54  <V453000> hi andythenorth
20:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause> what should be the result of that?
20:26:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause can write a code generator
20:26:12  <andythenorth> V453000 can do graphics
20:26:14  <V453000> monsterNUTS
20:26:16  <andythenorth> I’ll monologue in irc
20:26:18  <V453000> XD
20:26:18  <andythenorth> all bases covered
20:26:19  <AmongtheSavages> hi, guys. this is my first time in this chat. I'm a long time TTD player and recently dl open ttd
20:26:21  <V453000> good
20:26:28  <V453000> also go troll tt-forums for me andythenorth
20:26:40  <planetmaker> so, hope you enjoy it, AmongtheSavages
20:26:41  <andythenorth> division of labour
20:27:00  <AmongtheSavages> i'm using zbase and i'm curious if its possible to include other grf packages or sprites to modify in game content but be compatible at the same time
20:27:01  <andythenorth> V453000: I *never* troll forums
20:27:25  <AmongtheSavages> when i download new grfs they are not compatible with zbase and the mods revert from 32bit to whatever
20:27:41  <V453000> yes because the grfs arent in 32bpp
20:27:47  <planetmaker> AmongtheSavages, they are compatible... just not visually.
20:27:53  <V453000> there is only handful of 32bpp newGRFs
20:27:55  <V453000> and what pm said
20:28:04  <V453000> try YETI industries for example, is fully in 32bpp
20:28:09  <AmongtheSavages> ah, do you guys use 32bit mods? and can you show me where they are?
20:28:17  <V453000> but not visually compatible either, the colours/contrast are way too different
20:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause>  <Jinassi> [...] All I see is a bit "dumbed down" English. <-- so what? english itself is just dumbed down french/german/norwegian/dutch/...
20:28:23  <planetmaker> whether a newgrf provides 32bpp or not is at the discretion of the respective authors. There's a wiki page which lists some (all?) of those which also support 32bpp
20:29:18  <AmongtheSavages> so then how about playing downloadable scenarios? if i'm using the zbase engine and install the grf material from scenarios? will i also have compatibility issues?
20:29:55  <planetmaker> if they use non-32bpp newgrfs, then you'll have non-32bpp sprites in that scenario, too. Of course
20:30:12  <Jinassi> I was talking about different pronounciations from US vs the rest of the world.
20:30:17  <planetmaker> depends really on the scenario whether they use any, and if so, which newgrfs
20:30:18  <Jinassi> tyre vs tire
20:30:58  <AmongtheSavages> ok i understand. do you guys use YETI?
20:31:06  <AmongtheSavages> along with zbase
20:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody in their right mind uses YETI
20:31:55  <Alberth> haven't played it in a long time :p
20:31:55  <planetmaker> don't listen to Eddi|zuHause
20:32:04  <planetmaker> ;)
20:32:09  <V453000> XD
20:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> not that anybody in here is in their right mind...
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20:32:47  <planetmaker> new people don't know our type of humor yet ;)
20:32:56  <AmongtheSavages> i like the looks of yeti industries on teh wiki page. so your suggesting not to use yeti with zbase?
20:33:14  <AmongtheSavages> https://wiki.openttd.org/Playing_with_32_bpp_graphics
20:33:16  <planetmaker> AmongtheSavages, use whatever combination *you* think is good
20:33:19  <V453000> I use YETI with original TTD base set
20:33:19  <V453000> .
20:33:42  <AmongtheSavages> i dont understand why guys still use original base when 32b is available. its so much cleaner
20:33:45  <planetmaker> The differences are just visual
20:34:02  <Alberth> AmongtheSavages: it's a bit toooo clean, imho
20:34:21  <Alberth> not to mention offset problems all over the place
20:34:28  <Eddi|zuHause> a lot of the 32bpp stuff is a bit bland, quick-and-dirty rendering instead of detailed works of art
20:34:32  <V453000> or WAY too clean for some :P, oversized vehicles, wtf , ...
20:34:52  <AmongtheSavages> i've noticed the oversized vehicles
20:35:53  <planetmaker> the more you try, the more you'll notice. There's no general concensus on what constitutes good graphics ;)
20:36:26  <planetmaker> Nor is there any control by anyone on what people upload to content download
20:36:51  <planetmaker> (if they play by the TOS)
20:36:51  <V453000> ps I love how people think "oh yeah 32bpp so now we play 32bpp only because there is no other way"
20:37:43  <AmongtheSavages> well, i just like 32b much more. it keeps me interested in in playing further
20:38:12  <planetmaker> then use it :)
20:38:41  <AmongtheSavages> i am, though i want to try 32b compatible grfs for new industries and realistic town evolution
20:38:43  <planetmaker> if you feel like it: start to draw or render more of those
20:38:49  <Alberth> AmongtheSavages: that's fine, but just remember different people make different choices, they do not think all like you
20:39:16  <AmongtheSavages> ^ ofcourse
20:39:17  <Alberth> a common mistake when discussing the game
20:39:43  <Alberth> ie I like X, so you must also like it, as you also play the game :)
20:40:02  <Alberth> not really the case, often :p
20:41:13  <planetmaker> there are few games which allow so many different ways to be played, imho
20:42:25  <AmongtheSavages> so do you guys typically play multiplayer?
20:45:48  <AmongtheSavages> well, thank you all for answering my questions
20:46:23  <Alberth> I play MP coop sometimes, but not that often
20:46:38  <Alberth> mostly for testing new nregrfs :)
20:46:53  <Alberth> *newgrfs
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20:53:00  <Wolf01> "Greetings (Account First Name),"
20:55:00  <Alberth> hello too
20:55:50  <AmongtheSavages> hello
20:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i never get such mails :/
20:59:03  <Wolf01> that one was from Blizzard
21:02:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not getting mails from blizzard either
21:09:34  <AmongtheSavages> so i tried using YETI with zbase and it doesn't show production values
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21:10:29  <AmongtheSavages> any industry i click on shows a quantity of zero
21:11:48  <Wolf01> I think you must first bring some workers to the industries
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21:20:41  <AmongtheSavages> yeah ur right
21:20:45  <AmongtheSavages> does anyone here play with yeti industries?
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21:21:05  <dreck> hi
21:22:19  <AmongtheSavages> hi
21:22:24  <AmongtheSavages> do you play with zeti industries?
21:22:31  <dreck> zeti?
21:22:34  <AmongtheSavages> yes
21:22:54  <AmongtheSavages> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti
21:23:04  <dreck> oh yeti
21:23:14  <dreck> well used to like it a bit before but not recently sorry? :->
21:24:10  <AmongtheSavages> ok
21:25:52  <dreck> why you ask anyway?
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21:36:39  <AmongtheSavages> i'm trying it out
21:36:43  <AmongtheSavages> just seeing if anyone uses it
21:36:53  <AmongtheSavages> so i could ask how they like it etc
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21:39:05  <dreck> ah
21:40:59  <dreck> well honestly I've liked firs with many trainsets and original industry with some trainsets for most part for the record
21:41:08  <frosch123> AmongtheSavages: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=71939
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21:45:30  <AmongtheSavages> are those 32b?
21:45:55  <AmongtheSavages> i'm only playing with standard zbase set. do you play with 32b?
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21:48:00  <AmongtheSavages> frosch grvts 32b doesn't exist anymore
21:48:28  <frosch123> did it ever?
21:48:48  <AmongtheSavages> well, for 32b it doesn't. anyway frosch thank you for linking that. i'm going to read through it
21:50:14  <frosch123> for trains you can try pineapple trains
21:50:24  <frosch123> not sure whether the truecolor/zoom nuts is already released
21:50:34  <AmongtheSavages> i know, but it only works in tropical climate
21:50:41  <frosch123> i am not aware of a truecolor/zoom road vehicle, ship or planeset
21:50:52  <frosch123> huh?
21:50:58  <AmongtheSavages> i just got back to playing this game after a long time. i have to refresh my skills and strategies
21:51:10  <AmongtheSavages> pineapple trains isn't for temperate climate i think
21:51:20  <frosch123> i am quite sure it works in any climate
21:51:24  <AmongtheSavages> for 32b. i'm only looking for 32b compatibility
21:51:30  <AmongtheSavages> so i can pay with zbase
21:51:40  <AmongtheSavages> ah k
21:55:49  <michi_cc> AmongtheSavages: zBase does not modify gameplay in any way, so you can use it with any NewGRF you want. Not every combination will be aesthetically pleasing though, but this is of course highly personal.
21:56:46  <andythenorth> bye
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21:57:02  <AmongtheSavages> i know, i only want 32b compatibility though. its so ugly to play zbase with 8b grfs lol
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22:24:07  <AmongtheSavages> im liking pineapple trains (32b)
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22:50:22  <Wolf01> 'night
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