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Log for #openttd on 18th January 2015:
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00:59:47  <Samu> there is a display corruption when turning off then on Full Animation in Fullscreen mode
01:00:45  <Samu> I see black sprites which should be textures instead
01:01:25  <Samu> if I move the mouse around the black sprites, it redraws the missing textures
01:02:17  <Samu> wait, i'm posting a screenshot, brb
01:05:50  <Samu> https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pKuC1AYWAXl4ZeXV4nSccIrs1-IpWkQAomPocLM1tl13HE6kOcp-wHkqEWcsRJo_HOhg-8EeN20aW8bx--4fUr7EUEVMwyDMGgH0DruQAYYq5l0u_TPukpzRenuXhxLGNjkPID0GP2OJRfXpCBS1lfw/Company%201%2C%201984-08-09.png?psid=1
01:10:25  <Wolf01> uh, I had that problem too
01:10:38  <Wolf01> the 8bpp blitter iirc
01:13:45  <Wolf01> set blitter to "32bpp-optimized" or "32bpp-anim" in the cfg
01:15:58  <Samu> i found another problem related
01:18:52  <Samu> ok, taking a screenshot of this one was harder
01:19:30  <Samu> the in-game screenshot was coming out fine, but I was actually seeing this: https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pUkCrM3pR7f2-yyqEb-RVVX2fs6QfFcevBO6sNTfsTyy1iLYA_t9Bkhnp-qmapgRhWZTzw2oirT0lxFgBMT6i7dFkM-ldMdCfIlF56do8oBnuLhYkQB0TddG-3xzL26ZePKlAt9_d9du66c0ef8B0kg/Full%20Animation%20off%2C%20Switching%20to%20fullscreen.png?psid=1
01:21:17  <Wolf01> the blur?
01:21:30  <Samu> no, the desktop
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01:22:19  <Samu> at the bottom right part
01:22:51  <Wolf01> the game resolution is the same of your desktop?
01:22:52  <Samu> I see the clock, and background stuff that was part of my other programs
01:22:56  <Samu> nope
01:23:46  <Samu> moving the mouse pointer around that area would redraw the missing OpenTTD part over it
01:24:12  <Wolf01> it could be the difference of resolution
01:24:20  <Wolf01> try setting the same
01:25:38  <Samu> hmm this is a bit confusing to explain
01:26:13  <Samu> the first screenshot is an issue that happens during fullscreen mode already, by switching Full animation off to on or on to off
01:26:51  <Samu> the second screenshot is an issue that happens when full animation is off, and switching from non-fullscreen to fullscreen mode
01:27:58  <Wolf01> the first one should be the blitter, try to force using the 32bpp blitter and it should not happen anymore
01:28:53  <Samu> but the second issue only happens with full animation off, that's the thing
01:29:04  <Wolf01> ogfx has problems with the 8bpp blitter, frosch explained it to me once
01:29:06  <Samu> if it's on, then it displays everything fine
01:30:02  <Samu> blitter, let me find
01:30:41  <Samu> 'blitter = '
01:30:43  <Samu> it's empty
01:30:54  <Wolf01> set it to 32bpp-anim and retry
01:31:04  <Samu> how do i do that?
01:31:14  <Samu> ah, i see
01:31:20  <Wolf01> close the game, open edit che openttd.cfg
01:31:27  <Wolf01> save, start the game
01:31:58  <Samu> 'blitter = 32bpp-optimized' - like this?
01:32:02  <Wolf01> yes
01:32:09  <Samu> ok brb
01:32:24  <glx> 8bpp doesn't work very well on modern hardware because manufacturers almost dropped it
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01:34:50  <Samu> great, it solved all issues apparently
01:36:58  <Samu> confirming, both full animation on and off is solved, going from non fullscreen to fullscreen also solved. :) nice
01:38:28  <Samu> cyas, gotta go
01:39:05  <Wolf01> I'll go too, 'night all
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07:17:21  <andythenorth> o/
07:18:48  <Supercheese> 29 strings left...
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07:26:34  <andythenorth> k
07:26:41  <andythenorth> I won’t release yet then :)
07:31:12  <Supercheese> Is the Supermarket even used in any economy?
07:31:16  <Supercheese> I cannot recall seeing it
07:31:42  <Supercheese> only Grocery Stores
07:32:46  <Supercheese> seemingly a pointless string, then?
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07:33:40  <ST2> replace cargo names to "Heroin", "Cocain", "Weed", etc
07:33:49  <ST2> and will work better ^^
07:34:27  <ST2> won't hurt, it's a game anyway :P
07:34:55  <andythenorth> Supercheese: no, not used
07:35:09  <Alberth> hi andy
07:35:14  <Supercheese> Roger, I won't bother with STR_IND_SUPERMARKET then
07:35:14  <andythenorth> removing that string
07:35:16  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
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08:01:18  * andythenorth cracks knuckles, starts changelog
08:01:47  <andythenorth> does hg view on devzone have dubious handling of branches?
08:02:00  <andythenorth> in bitbucket I can view commits for specific branches
08:02:05  <andythenorth> can’t see how to do that on devzone
08:07:03  <Alberth> /me uses thg  for viewing repository
08:13:16  <andythenorth> I could get a local client I guess
08:13:57  <andythenorth> I’ve always resisted getting a GUI client for VCS, I think they hide away too much
08:14:04  <andythenorth> click button, magic happens
08:14:33  <Alberth> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GraphlogExtension
08:16:00  <andythenorth> ah that one :)
08:16:57  <andythenorth> that works
08:17:33  <andythenorth> I could probably filter on default branch if I bothered to read the manual :D
08:18:06  <Alberth> you could :)
08:19:30  <Alberth> I use thg only for browsing and annotations, I tried a few other things, but the cmd line was just as simple
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08:49:59  <andythenorth> Supercheese: how’s the translation going? o_O
08:50:15  <Supercheese> 18 strings remain
08:50:57  * andythenorth has done changelog etc
08:51:04  <andythenorth> ping me when you’re done
08:51:33  <Supercheese> 17, roger
08:51:40  * andythenorth wonders what the players will think of this release
08:52:31  <andythenorth> changes Full FIRS a bit
08:53:46  <andythenorth> hmm
08:53:54  <andythenorth> repeatable asserts on the industry chain view
08:54:00  <andythenorth> just not sure how I’m repeating them
08:54:15  <andythenorth> also changed newgrfs in the savegame, so might be spurious
08:55:03  <andythenorth> seems to be if I use the cargo drop-down, then use the industry drop-down
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09:14:07  <andythenorth> hrm
09:14:11  * andythenorth ponders
09:35:24  <Supercheese> just 5 more now
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09:43:30  <andythenorth> Tropic Basic economy is probably wrong
09:43:42  <andythenorth> but not convinced yet
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09:57:46  <andythenorth> hrm, should just rework it
09:58:42  <Supercheese> and the last one, "bulk terminal" hmmm
09:58:53  <andythenorth> yeah tricky one that
09:58:57  <Supercheese> remove it then I won't have to translate it :P
09:59:06  <andythenorth> you can use variants on harbour
09:59:08  <andythenorth> or whatever
09:59:25  <andythenorth> I gave it a clunky name to distinguish it clearly from the more generic Port
10:01:02  <andythenorth> Supercheese: you could interpret: Big Ships Harbour or something
10:01:07  <Supercheese> indeed
10:01:16  <andythenorth> or just Big Harbour
10:01:23  <andythenorth> these industries change cargos in every economy
10:01:31  <andythenorth> all that matters is that player can tell them apart
10:01:39  <andythenorth> meaning in every case is ‘some kind of harbour’
10:11:29  <Supercheese> Ok, all are now translated
10:13:15  <Supercheese> and I can't see any obvious errors - though chances are I'll discover some silly mistakes I made later :P
10:14:50  <Supercheese> oh guess I should ping like you said andythenorth
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10:17:43  <andythenorth> k ta
10:17:56  * andythenorth not in the mood to rework a whole economy
10:17:59  <andythenorth> so going to release
10:18:07  <andythenorth> hmm
10:18:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you know a way to force eints to commit changes to a project repo?
10:18:46  <andythenorth> otherwise tag will be missing today’s updates
10:18:50  <Alberth> nope
10:19:10  <Alberth> could download the languages manually
10:19:20  <andythenorth> or tag tonight
10:19:32  <andythenorth> it’s not that pressing, it’s > 12 months since last tag
10:20:00  <Alberth> or ask nicely to an admin :)
10:20:25  <Alberth> but haven't seen those yet :)
10:25:03  <Supercheese> I think Attenborough once did a special on the rare species of S. admin ;)
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10:26:37  <Wolf01> moin
10:36:48  <andythenorth> meh, FIRS Tropic Basic should be called “Tropic boring economy where you connect all the farms up to FMSP”
10:37:00  <NGC3982> FMSP?
10:37:28  <andythenorth> farm supplies
10:37:32  <NGC3982> Ah
11:02:12  <Alberth> moin
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11:19:46  <supermop> yo
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11:43:37  <supermop> rode a track bike for 40km on a gravel trail because i am an idiot today
11:47:25  <NGC3982> :D
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12:06:36  <supermop> ok im beat, good night
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12:58:26  <andythenorth> quak
12:58:41  <frosch123> moin
12:58:46  <V453000> hy
12:59:19  <andythenorth> lo V453000 also
12:59:36  <V453000> hihi :)ú
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13:01:07  <V453000> roads/tracks time :)
13:17:45  * andythenorth remaking Tropic economy time
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13:24:14  <V453000> :D
13:24:21  <V453000> werent you remaking something else just a while back?
13:29:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you're just now realizing that andy has one of the most unstable minds on this planet? :p
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13:32:55  <planetmaker> moin
13:33:03  <planetmaker> frosch123: got the link to the credits script or me again?
13:33:12  <NGC3982> Three marks for muster mark.
13:33:32  <frosch123> planetmaker: i am just improving it :)
13:33:37  <planetmaker> ah... nvm. my memory worked
13:35:19  <planetmaker> frosch123: you can commit that to http://hg.openttdcoop.org/misc in the 'compiler' folder?
13:36:41  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: no but I didnt want to be cruel and pretend otherwise :P
13:36:43  <planetmaker> in principle you can then also modify jenkins_build.sh, call that script in the appropriate place and modify jenkins_postbuild.sh to copy the credits.txt and you're done adding it to all newgrf projects
13:37:18  <planetmaker> if you don't I shall have a look either late today or tomorrow; I'm not home right now and I'm expected for tea and dinner soon
13:38:10  <andythenorth> V453000: what did I remake?  I don’t remember remaking anything ever
13:38:17  <V453000> XD
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13:43:08  <Flygon> How long does a coal mine typically last if it doesn't supply anything?
13:45:25  <andythenorth> there is no typically
13:45:40  <andythenorth> it’s probabilistic, depends also on number on map, economy settings etc
13:46:05  <andythenorth> it might have a statistical pattern if someone ran enough games and logged closures
13:46:08  <andythenorth> :)
13:47:17  <Flygon> Oh
13:47:18  <Flygon> Damn.
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13:57:11  <andythenorth> meh
13:57:27  <andythenorth> I’ve tried two configurations of port industries in Full FIRS economy
13:57:35  <andythenorth> one is illogical but fun to play
13:57:41  <andythenorth> the other is highly logical, but tedious
14:00:25  * andythenorth puzzled
14:01:39  <Alberth> 2 full economies?
14:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there's a grace period of about 5 years, then it could close any month
14:02:39  <andythenorth> Alberth: nah :)
14:02:51  * Flygon nod
14:02:52  <Flygon> Thanks, man
14:03:00  <andythenorth> the only reason I’m doing this is because Full FIRS is the result of one rational decision after another
14:03:04  <andythenorth> and it’s boring
14:03:05  <andythenorth> :P
14:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: split it into "Fun FIRS" and "Logical FIRS" economies
14:03:13  <andythenorth> it needs some kind of shortcuts
14:03:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the name "full" is problematic anyway, get rid of it sooner rather than later
14:05:40  <andythenorth> good point
14:05:44  <andythenorth> now would be a good time
14:05:54  <andythenorth> call it what?
14:06:01  <andythenorth> complex?  intense?
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14:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "complex" seems fine, and in line with "basic"
14:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> make "basic (climate dependent)" the default, then allow "basic (specific climate)" and the other economies as parameter options
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14:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you could also have "complex (specific climate)" later...
14:11:34  <andythenorth> +1
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14:22:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/credits.txt :)
14:23:15  <andythenorth> hurrah
14:23:53  <andythenorth> I went through the translations in changelog this morning, some contributors are missing, but probably pre-dating eints, so probably not in the commit messages
14:24:21  <andythenorth> frosch123: that file is 100% auto-generated?
14:25:39  * andythenorth ponders processing it with FIRS compiler to add the known-missing contributors
14:26:33  <frosch123> yes, it's now generated for almost all projects on devzone
14:26:56  <andythenorth> is the output destination adjustable?
14:27:21  <frosch123> no, not exactly
14:27:35  <andythenorth> nvm
14:27:36  <frosch123> if you want to use it yourself, rather add a copy to firs, and call it there
14:28:11  <andythenorth> ok ta
14:32:08  <frosch123> hmm, oh, right.. there are no jenkins build for gamescripts... so, also no automatic credit files for them
14:33:18  <andythenorth> a project? o_O
14:33:25  <andythenorth> we are having more gamescripts now
14:33:51  <andythenorth> I have at least two ideas beyond Busy Bee, one probably sucks but eh
14:33:53  <frosch123> it also fails for projects using subrepositories, like opengfx-mars; but i guess i don't care about them
14:34:01  <andythenorth> edge cases
14:34:12  <andythenorth> subrepos are always odd
14:50:45  <andythenorth> eh controversial idea
14:50:52  <andythenorth> a FIRS economy without fishing
14:59:00  <Eddi|zuHause> why is that controversial?
14:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "landlocked FIRS"
14:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> no oil rigs, no fishing stuff
14:59:40  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: andy is an english man, no water is unrealistic for him
14:59:59  <andythenorth> this is a very good point
15:00:04  <andythenorth> can’t imagine being stuck in a continent
15:00:13  <andythenorth> being in the middle of Canada for three months freaked me out
15:00:20  <andythenorth> don’t like boats much mind
15:00:29  <andythenorth> also
15:00:39  <andythenorth> I am revamping FIRS Tropic Basic
15:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> never played that
15:01:00  <andythenorth> in Brazil & Argentina, the sugar refineries produce ethanol
15:01:16  <andythenorth> which is handy because there’s one in the game, and I’m consolidating some things
15:01:30  <andythenorth> but is ethanol Chemicals or Petrol, for gameplay purposes?
15:01:41  <andythenorth> probably petrol
15:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause> fuel
15:01:59  <andythenorth> yeah, petrol is a coverall term for fuel
15:02:13  <andythenorth> I originally had fuel oil, but people found it weird
15:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know the nuances of these terms
15:03:12  <andythenorth> don’t think it matters much
15:03:23  <andythenorth> just using irc to think out loud
15:03:33  <andythenorth> there is a small child here pushing around a box on wheels
15:03:41  <andythenorth> he is not much use at game design
15:03:52  <andythenorth> actually, that’s untrue, he’s inventing his own game as I watch
15:03:55  <andythenorth> but it’s not good
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15:17:03  <andythenorth> hrm, loads of possibilities for this economy
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16:11:48  <andythenorth> hmm can’t log in to newgrf wiki
16:11:53  <andythenorth> says I need a TTD account
16:11:58  <andythenorth> but I’m using my TTD auth creds
16:12:04  <andythenorth> TTF / TTD /S
16:13:32  <frosch123> works for me
16:16:54  <V453000> BANNED
16:18:52  <andythenorth> I reset my forums password last year
16:19:01  <andythenorth> dunno if I’ve logged into the wiki since then
16:19:44  <andythenorth> was going to add BEAN to the cargo labels
16:20:02  <andythenorth> or BNZZ
16:28:45  <andythenorth> Supercheese: sorry, making more translations :D
16:28:52  <andythenorth> going to delay a FIRS release
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17:33:44  <FUZxxl_> Hello!
17:33:57  <FUZxxl_> How many rating points do I need to demolish a church?
17:38:46  <andythenorth> ha ha the FIRS compile is such a lot of gaffer tape and string
17:45:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27121 /trunk/src/lang (irish.txt latin.txt) (2015-01-18 17:45:32 UTC)
17:45:38  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:39  <DorpsGek> irish - 2 changes by tem
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> latin - 1 changes by Supercheese
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17:56:49  <FUZxxl_> :-(
17:56:54  <FUZxxl_> So I will suffer
17:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> church needs very high rating.
17:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's a wiki page for that.
18:02:40  <FUZxxl_> which?
18:02:43  <FUZxxl_> I haven't found one.
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18:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> probably the game mechanics one
18:20:01  <FUZxxl> well, that page does not list the minimal rating for each building. It just says “Destroy a building / Rating Required: 40 to 300”
18:20:11  <FUZxxl> It doesn't say what buildings require what rating.
18:26:50  <frosch123> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/DefaultHouseProps <- FUZxxl: second to last column
18:28:20  <frosch123> the positive score is devided in steps of 200 from 0 to 1000 with mediocre (0-200), good, very good, execellent, outstanding (800-1000)
18:28:43  <frosch123> so, for most houses you need mediocre, for some you need good
18:29:47  <frosch123> though you need to be upper-mediocre, or upper-good :p
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18:36:22  <FUZxxl> thank you
18:46:36  <andythenorth> hrm
18:46:43  <andythenorth> these farm clusters just ain’t fun
18:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause> "horrible ressource management"?
18:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they are
18:47:34  <andythenorth> deliving tedious supplies?
18:47:37  <andythenorth> delivering *
18:47:53  <andythenorth> also the initial production is sized for trucks, but with supplies it’s big enough for a train
18:48:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
18:48:45  <andythenorth> boring to rebuild
18:48:59  <andythenorth> and supplies are very fragile, so easy to have a lot of stuck trains
18:49:08  <andythenorth> how to make supplies less fragile? o_O
18:49:22  * NGC3982 buys his first game in ten years.
18:49:46  <Eddi|zuHause> stockpiling for supplies
18:50:19  <andythenorth> looking increasingly plausible
18:50:25  <andythenorth> with acceptance refusal?
18:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> supplies are consumed every month, but you can deliver every three months
18:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> stockpiles above three months are discarded unused (but still paid for)
18:51:53  <andythenorth> this looks really tedious to play http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7023/farm_cluster.png
18:52:14  <andythenorth> have to provide delivery at every station, observing industry north tile rules where overlap can’t be avoided
18:52:19  <andythenorth> also two kinds of pickup
18:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> looks fine to me
18:52:40  <andythenorth> and it’s on slopes, so routing is harder
18:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe increase the minimum distance between farms
18:53:01  <andythenorth> well
18:53:04  <andythenorth> then I can’t station walk :P
18:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the slopiness you cannot change from the newgrf
18:53:10  <andythenorth> ah I see a problem
18:53:23  <andythenorth> I want all the cluster within station walking distance for pickup
18:53:33  <andythenorth> but far enough apart for delivering supplies to each
18:53:38  <andythenorth> this is a bad design goal
18:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds silly
18:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> use a feeder system, not station walking
18:53:47  <andythenorth> flawed
18:53:54  <andythenorth> feeders are not very fun
18:54:18  <Alberth> not in 1883, where trains can't climb a 1 tile hill :p
18:54:20  <andythenorth> lots of clicking
18:54:30  <andythenorth> yak-shaving
18:54:40  <andythenorth> how about
18:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i love feeders
18:54:47  <Alberth> why do you have clusters then?
18:54:50  <andythenorth> fewer farms per cluster, higher production, slightly more spaced out?
18:54:57  <andythenorth> Alberth: because often I am wrong
18:54:57  <Alberth> (I do like clusters though)
18:55:02  <andythenorth> I have ideas
18:55:10  <andythenorth> then we find why they’re flawed
18:55:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make it a setting?
18:55:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: maybe
18:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole point of clusters was feeder systems...
18:56:17  <andythenorth> yes, but I’ve neglected scaling them properly
18:56:34  <andythenorth> in Full FIRS (complex, whatever we call it), there are many more industries
18:56:41  <andythenorth> so each cluster is much smaller
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18:56:53  <Alberth> oh, you're using the original baseset of course, the screen shot looked different :)
18:57:01  <andythenorth> there’s another option? :P
18:57:30  <andythenorth> in the basic economies, many fewer industries (~18 vs 51)
18:57:33  <Alberth> /me ponders answering zBase
18:57:36  <andythenorth> I should handle the scaling
18:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> scaling by map size, number of industry types, etc.
18:58:14  <Alberth> sounds nice to scale
18:58:33  <Alberth> makes the basic economies also more different to play
18:59:47  <andythenorth> scales by map size, but not num industry types
19:00:59  <V453000> zbase ._.
19:01:08  <V453000> actually I will start using zbase soon :D
19:01:12  <V453000> once I finish RAWR :)
19:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: num types that take part in the cluster
19:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so for farm cluster, count all farm types
19:02:23  * andythenorth is looking for the map size scaling code
19:02:27  <andythenorth> this is a bit of FIRS I didn’t write
19:02:30  <andythenorth> it’s all CPP
19:02:40  <andythenorth> it doesn’t have any concept of economies and such
19:02:56  <Alberth> V: No need to make a new baseset before you're allowed to use a different one :)
19:02:59  <andythenorth> it looks worth coming back to this in future though
19:04:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if I convert the cluster code generation to python in future
I am wondering if an algorithm can be devised to reliably cluster for any industry type in any economy for any map size....
19:04:42  <andythenorth> seems like it should be possible
19:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> needs more specification of what goes in and what comes out
19:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> out: number of clusters, average cluster size
19:05:54  <andythenorth> I’d need to understand current code first :)
19:06:05  <andythenorth> I think you wrote the original spec
19:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause> in: number of industries, size of industry, map size, ...
19:06:21  <andythenorth> number of clusters is a define somewhere, scaled by map size, I think
19:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i might have made some suggestions, but i certainly didn't write anything...
19:07:18  <andythenorth> someone wrote a map scaling routing, not me :)
19:07:38  <andythenorth> what’s the optimum number of industries in a cluster?  About 5?
19:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there are afair two kinds of clusters. mine clusters and agriculture clusters
19:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> mine clusters have fewer but larger industries
19:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> where agriculture clusters have more smaller industries
19:08:53  <andythenorth> yes, that’s handled somewhere
19:08:56  <V453000> Alberth: no but it is just utter shit, my eyes are dying when looking at the emptiness of zbase
19:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to make cluster generation more flexible, you should unify those
19:09:22  <Alberth> V453000: yep, I fully agree :)
19:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so this algorithm can output numbers for any kind of cluster
19:09:53  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L69
19:10:01  <andythenorth> dunno what that’s doing
19:10:10  <andythenorth> mindistance and maxdistance are obvious
19:10:29  <andythenorth> tweaking those gives better results, at least for the map size I just tested, in multiple economies
19:10:37  <frosch123> V453000: do you know about static newgrf?
19:10:47  <andythenorth> where is industry_clusters coming from, /me wonders
19:10:51  <V453000> frosch123: which newgrf to use? :P
19:10:56  <andythenorth> ah industry_clusters = (relative_map_size / 2) + 1;
19:11:05  <V453000> yes I know about it ... never used it though
19:11:11  <andythenorth> dunno what mult and div do
19:11:28  <frosch123> V453000: well, it's the thing you should do as long as rawr is no complete baseset
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19:11:40  <V453000> yeah I will :)
19:13:13  <V453000> most of the time I will just add RAWR to the game though :P
19:13:15  <V453000> simple nuff
19:13:51  <andythenorth> hrm
19:13:58  <andythenorth> mult and div are set higher for mines
19:14:00  <andythenorth> and some farms
19:14:04  <andythenorth> dunno what that means
19:14:43  <andythenorth> hmm some secondaries use CHECK_NEARBY_CLUSTER
19:15:17  <andythenorth> it’s fun having a codebase where I don’t understand 30% of it
19:15:49  <Alberth> multi and div     is just a factor    ( x * mult / div )
19:16:05  <Alberth> but split into 2 numbers for more precision
19:17:23  <andythenorth> so somehow that code is controlling the number of clusters to build?
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19:21:57  <V453000> hm do diagonal tracks need to be wider than normal full-tile tracks? :d
19:22:08  <V453000> I guess they do, same reason as with trains being 141% longer
19:22:44  <NGC3982> I just realized what alt+Enter did to OpenTTD.
19:23:41  <frosch123> it's a standard hotkey, though recently it is getting replaced by F11 i think
19:31:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sound like a reasonable solution to this repeatedly-complained-about problem? :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7410
19:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you can fuzz it a tiny bit, but if you make the scaling too exact, the changes between diagonal and straight will be off...
19:33:51  <V453000> yeah that is what I figure
19:34:08  <V453000> I will try the precise thing for now
19:34:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Alt+Enter was already a standard hotkey in Win 3.1
19:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it grew out of fashion with the reduction of DOS applications
19:35:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the F11 thing seems to come from browsers
19:38:19  <frosch123> hotkeys change over time, the worst example that comes to mind is the acrobat reader
19:38:59  <frosch123> "goto page" has always been ctrl+g or ctrl+l, in acrobat it was changed to ctrl+shift+n or something silly
19:39:25  <Eddi|zuHause> in the DOS version of WordPerfect, "help" was F3.
19:44:43  <Eddi|zuHause> WordPerfect was fun, it came with a bar that you could place above F1..F12 keys that showed the functions they would do, with Alt,Shift and Ctrl modifiers. so 4 functions per key
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19:48:53  <Wolf01> heh, do you remember the hotkeys for saving in notepad, wordpad and office (word, excel..)?
19:50:04  <frosch123> it's F2 in turbo pascal
19:51:18  <frosch123> help - save - open - step until line - maximize - switch window - step - next - run - menu
19:51:23  <frosch123> all correct?
19:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember using ctrl+F9 regularly
19:51:48  <frosch123> not sure about maximize/switch window, maybe they were the other way around :p
19:52:04  <frosch123> i belive F9 is comile, ctrl+f9 is compile and run or so
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19:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause> F5 for maximize sounds right
19:54:11  <frosch123> http://www.freepascal.org/docs-html/user/userse32.html <- yup, all correct
19:54:26  <frosch123> can't remember using F11 or F12
19:54:47  <frosch123> also i would have difficulties with the ctrl+Fx ones
19:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i know some of the starwriter commands (Ctrl+K,<whatever>)
19:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember the Ctrl+Q ones
19:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i never used freepascal. i had borland pascal 7 (dos&windows), delphi 2 and later delphi 6
19:59:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's at least 10 years ago since i used that
19:59:39  <frosch123> the freepascal hotkeys are identical to turbo pascal
20:00:13  <frosch123> i also never used the freepascal ide
20:01:16  <shempi> hmm, is there a way to have vehicles automatically replaced when they get old?
20:01:49  <shempi> particularly buses
20:01:56  <frosch123> yes, look on the wiki for "autorenew"
20:02:11  <Eddi|zuHause> there are two methods to replace vehicles. a) when they are old, they get replaced with the same type, or b) any time they go to the depot they will be replaced by another type
20:05:43  <Wolf01> "Windows +CTRL+SHIFT+[number]: run as administrator the [number] app on the app bar" nice one, I missed that
20:07:02  <shempi> frosch123: Eddi|zuHause: cool, thanks
20:07:32  <Wolf01> and now I need a shortcut to resize a window to a quadrant, instead of half screen, on ubuntu 9 (last time I used it, lol) I had that one
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20:15:12  <V453000> hm tunnels look awful low :D
20:15:14  <V453000> hax
20:18:55  <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel portals are already visually enlarged
20:19:55  <V453000> yeah I just noticed :D
20:20:08  <V453000> looking at the sloped tile shows that quite well :D
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20:55:13  <planetmaker> g'evening
20:56:16  <V453000> hi :)
20:56:43  <Taede> ello
21:01:11  <XeryusTC> yo
21:03:35  <frosch123> planetmaker: to summarize, gen_credits works for most newgrf :) it fails for obvious reasons with projects using subrepos, and for game scripts since none of them are build on jenkins
21:03:50  <andythenorth> ugh, /me made an outsized diff
21:04:02  <andythenorth> had to fix bugs mid-way through revising an economy :(
21:04:21  <planetmaker> Well, that's expected for sub-repos. Could be checked for by checking the project type in .devzone/build/type. But... meh :)
21:04:46  <frosch123> well, it's no error
21:04:50  <planetmaker> and for GS: they can easily be added to Jenkins. Just no-one requested that yet. I'm not against that, not at all. Actually I like that :)
21:05:04  <frosch123> well, gs are all different :p
21:05:10  <planetmaker> they are :)
21:05:25  <frosch123> busy-bee requires to run make bundle, while most others just need a source bundle
21:05:36  <planetmaker> yep. But easy to add busy-bee
21:05:50  <planetmaker> It's not like GS need much...
21:05:59  <frosch123> well, problem is the version number
21:06:09  <Alberth> /me ponders adding some graphics
21:06:17  <frosch123> if ottd shall display them reliably it needs an increasing version number
21:06:27  <frosch123> so, actually busy-bee is the only one working :p
21:06:33  <Alberth> \o/  :D
21:06:33  <andythenorth> running make on bundles is a nice basic regression test
21:06:47  <andythenorth> for common case of, e.g. “I forgot to add file”
21:07:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: doesn't work for gs
21:07:22  <andythenorth> currently, or ever?
21:07:30  <V453000> hm, putting everything in one file is not the most fortunate for compiling either :)
21:07:37  <V453000> one change = no cache :D
21:07:54  <V453000> buuuut meh :)
21:08:32  <frosch123> well, we have no squirrel compiler that checks whether all files dynamically imported files are present
21:08:42  <planetmaker> V453000, for graphics, for sure. No good idea. Some intermediate approach is usually fine. Like one tileset for landscape per file. If you change one, you change the others likely, too, anyway
21:08:53  <planetmaker> could be added, such compiler, though
21:08:58  <Alberth> andythenorth: planetmaker: I have no objections if you want to experiment with busy bee building
21:09:06  <V453000> idk how to mass-convert 32bpp files to 8bpp though
21:09:08  <planetmaker> aye :)
21:09:15  <V453000> so since I do it manually, less files == more convenient
21:09:29  <andythenorth> after un-breaking FIRS, I might have a look at Busy Bee
21:09:30  <planetmaker> you're not using a script?
21:09:35  <V453000> not going to remake stuff :)
21:09:39  <V453000> no? :)
21:09:46  <andythenorth> part of me wants to finish converting FIRS to python
21:09:49  <V453000> everything I do is manual
21:09:57  <andythenorth> but probably TMWFTLB, and will add bugs :P
21:10:01  <V453000> well, except the automated stuff through graphics programs
21:10:18  <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1140964#p1140964 <-- frosch123 do you have a nice reply there? And to discourage use of GEAR cargo?
21:10:25  <Alberth> there goes you banner "all pixels are hand made" V  :)
21:10:30  <V453000> XD
21:11:24  <Alberth> make an industry set for it, with real cargo :p
21:12:07  <andythenorth> I replied
21:12:58  <frosch123> planetmaker: there is no way to check for free cargo id slots. i am not aware of anyone ever using grm for cargos, since it was weirdly incomplete or so. if he wants to use gear, the obvious approach is to use the same cargo id as other sets using gear, since it is most likely that that id is free then. other than that, i do not care, there is no good reply for subtype related stuff :)
21:13:27  <planetmaker> :)
21:13:54  <planetmaker> Just write that :P
21:14:21  * andythenorth unbreaks FIRS :|
21:14:28  <andythenorth> frigging slow compile to test the unbreaking
21:14:53  <andythenorth> my computer has compiled FIRS for about 2 hours today
21:15:01  <andythenorth> I have found a lot of things to do meanwhile :P
21:16:09  <Alberth> multitasking bees
21:17:07  * andythenorth wonders if building one FIRS grf per economy would be faster on average
21:17:11  <andythenorth> more grfs in the wild though
21:17:46  <andythenorth> just realised I have only one industry slot left
21:17:54  <andythenorth> that game-overs some of the planned economies
21:18:11  <andythenorth> can’t overlap industry IDs even in different economies, because one nml compile
21:18:39  <frosch123> untrue
21:18:43  <andythenorth> will lead to spurious results on location checks (which use IDs)
21:19:00  <frosch123> you just need some "if"
21:19:19  <andythenorth> I have a lot of ‘if’ already
21:19:24  <andythenorth> getting a bit scared of the if :(
21:20:21  * andythenorth wonders what the cost is of declaring industry properties multiple times for same industry
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21:21:21  <andythenorth> ho
21:21:33  <andythenorth> if I convert the CPP location checks to python, I can put the ‘if’ in
21:21:43  <andythenorth> AND I can support compiling a subset of the industries
21:21:49  <andythenorth> which is much faster for testing when developing
21:22:13  <andythenorth> currently I can compile a single industry, but I have to comment out location check code in actual src
21:22:19  <andythenorth> which is easily forgotten :P
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21:23:57  <andythenorth> a single industry compile is ~20s, versus > 3 mins for full grf
21:25:47  <planetmaker> andythenorth, but you really don't make use of the graphics cache? Or is that being usedß
21:25:52  <planetmaker> s/ß/?/g
21:26:11  <andythenorth> good q
21:26:13  <frosch123> encoding time is irrelevant for 8bpp 1x grfs :)
21:26:43  <andythenorth> I can’t see nml cache file though for FIRS
21:27:11  <andythenorth> other grfs have it
21:27:34  <andythenorth> hmm, I just ran clean though, and I’m waiting for compile
21:27:42  <frosch123> just add 32bpp 4x sprites to firs, then you won't complain about 3 minutes anymore :p
21:27:52  <andythenorth> ho, I have to run make clean every time
21:28:04  <andythenorth> because I made the makefile ‘properly’
21:28:09  <andythenorth> that can’t be good
21:28:29  <andythenorth> I should revert that commit
21:30:46  <andythenorth> I think it was this one http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/105e49f096e8/diff/
21:31:13  <andythenorth> unless I run clean, make won’t build any changes after an initial build
21:31:29  <andythenorth> it ‘builds’, but doesn’t call the python compile
21:32:53  <glx> then you cleaned the dependancies
21:34:07  <andythenorth> I don’t really understand what the dependencies are :)
21:34:22  <andythenorth> I have tried to understand make before, but it’s just magic
21:34:25  <glx>     $(_V) mv generated/pnml/firs.pnml firs.pnml
21:34:32  <glx> this line is needed
21:35:41  <andythenorth> that just moves a file somewhere it shouldn’t be?
21:37:29  <glx> but no lines in this section seems to create the file except mv
21:38:26  <andythenorth> file isn’t needed
21:38:35  <andythenorth> firs.pnml is dead
21:39:45  <glx> but generated/pnml/firs.pnml is used by the rule
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21:40:40  <andythenorth> yes :)
21:41:06  <andythenorth> that is created by preprocess.py
21:41:20  <andythenorth> but make doesn’t seem to understand that, for the way I this configured
21:41:27  <andythenorth> so it doesn’t call preprocess.py
21:41:35  <andythenorth> * have
21:42:03  <glx> it runs it if preprocess.py has been modified
21:42:16  <glx> that's what the rule says
21:42:17  <andythenorth> ah
21:42:27  <andythenorth> so if I edit my compiler, it will be run by make
21:42:35  <andythenorth> but I don’t usually edit my compiler :)
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21:45:42  <andythenorth> this was done previously with a PHONY target
21:45:44  <andythenorth> which worked fine
21:45:57  <andythenorth> but then I learnt that PHONY targets shouldn’t be used
21:46:10  <andythenorth> so I did it ‘properly’
21:46:27  <andythenorth> hmm
21:46:35  <glx> well you need add the "sources" in dependancies
21:46:47  <andythenorth> maybe I don’t have to run ‘make clean’, maybe I can just manually remove the generated folder every time I want to compile
21:46:48  <glx> else it won't detect it needs to rebuild
21:47:11  <__ln___> *dependencies
21:47:38  <andythenorth> yeah, I recall being told I needed to list deps before
21:47:41  <glx> __ln___: I'm french, it's a "a" here ;)
21:47:47  <andythenorth> but manually maintaining deps, I dunno
21:47:52  <andythenorth> writing out a long list of files?
21:47:55  <andythenorth> sounds really dull
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21:48:37  <andythenorth> maybe I can patch my makefile to remove the generated stuff every time
21:48:48  <andythenorth> clean removes the cache files too, which is sad
21:48:55  *** Haube2 [~Michi@83.149.126.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:49:17  <glx> that's why many projects (including openttd) use tools to generate deps ;)
21:49:43  <andythenorth> I dunno how to do that :)
21:49:54  <glx> but IIRC you can just add *.ext as dep
21:49:57  <andythenorth> I was already told not to write my own dep checks in python, because it will likely be wrong
21:50:54  <andythenorth> I could just do *.* I guess
21:50:56  <andythenorth> or just *
21:56:31  <andythenorth> ho ho, ‘beans’, the tropic cargo everyone was waiting for
21:56:32  <andythenorth> not
21:56:36  * andythenorth adds it anyway
21:56:46  <frosch123> i like beans
21:58:45  <andythenorth> do you like putting them in trains? o_O
21:59:00  * andythenorth has been making work for FIRS translators
21:59:02  <andythenorth> :P
21:59:27  <frosch123> well, there are multiple colours for beans
21:59:39  <frosch123> so, make a complete bean economy
22:00:25  <frosch123> call it bohnanza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohnanza
22:00:50  <andythenorth> ha
22:03:05  <Supercheese> surprised they didn't change it to Beananza for English
22:03:11  <Supercheese> maybe was a copyright conflict
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22:12:53  <andythenorth> do the cargo IDs (slot numbers) have any significance at all?
22:13:17  <frosch123> only for industry sets
22:13:21  <andythenorth> or rather, can I set them to arbitrary (but stable) values per economy?
22:13:38  <andythenorth> does it matter if COAL is 8 in one economy and 32 in another?
22:13:57  <frosch123> pax/mail are fixed, the rest does not matter
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22:14:06  <andythenorth> worth knowing thanks :)
22:14:14  <frosch123> need to be constant for savegame reasons ofc
22:14:17  <andythenorth> yup
22:14:28  <andythenorth> I’m breaking savegames this release, so might be a nice time to clean them up
22:14:50  <andythenorth> already they overlap, now I’m chasing my tale designing economies because of conflicts
22:15:00  <andythenorth> “no you can’t have coffee, same ID as wool” :P
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22:16:07  <andythenorth> shame I can’t do it based on position in a python list :P
22:16:10  <andythenorth> but not stable
22:16:34  <frosch123> night
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22:16:42  <andythenorth> also
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23:15:16  <Wolf01> 'night all
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23:21:23  *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po1-84-90-249-192.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
23:22:19  <Samu> hi, i found a bug, and I think I know how to do it
23:22:43  <Samu> it requires 2 players on the same company but with different company settings
23:23:31  <planetmaker> Samu, then please create an issue in our bug tracker and describe the procedure how to encounter / reproduce
23:23:53  <Samu> ok, it's about autoreplace
23:23:57  <Samu> will do
23:27:53  <Samu> now that I think about it, maybe it's not a bug
23:28:23  <glx> lol an autoreplace bug, how surprising ;)
23:28:46  <Samu> he had his own autorenew as off
23:30:19  <planetmaker> autorenew != autoreplace
23:30:34  <Samu> it was about the money limit
23:31:00  <Samu> I had the game to replace a train engine with a newer one that came available
23:31:27  <Samu> the train "I" created, was replaced immediately at £0 which is what I have for me
23:31:59  <Samu> but the train already in the company when I joined it, created by the other player, was only replaced at £100,000
23:32:12  <Samu> intended or bug?
23:33:05  *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:41:34  <planetmaker> dunno really
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