Log for #openttd on 29th January 2015:
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02:17:23  <supermop> yo
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07:32:32  <Supercheese> anyone else getting 504 errors on devzone?
07:35:36  <V453000> yes
07:36:17  <Supercheese> :(
07:36:24  <Supercheese> It's dead, Jim
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07:45:30  <planetmaker> moin
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07:48:21  <V453000> hi pm, devzone is being evil again :)
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07:51:19  <Supercheese> Now it's 502...
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07:56:58  <andythenorth> bah
07:57:13  <planetmaker> yes, yes, I know
07:57:19  <andythenorth> nah
07:57:27  <andythenorth> not devzone keys
07:57:39  <andythenorth> I have unexpected problems in FIRS :D
07:57:47  <andythenorth> which are hard to fix properly
07:58:08  <andythenorth> although lack of hg gives me an excuse ;)
08:01:50  <Supercheese> ah, pages are loading now
08:10:33  <andythenorth> hg and devzone working for me
08:14:09  <^Spike^> they should
08:14:19  <^Spike^> should anything be missing/not working highlght me or pm about it
08:14:24  <andythenorth> will do
08:14:29  <^Spike^> sry for the downtime i caused :)
08:14:34  <andythenorth> eh np
08:14:38  <andythenorth> what is our SLA anyway?
08:14:38  <^Spike^> but hopefully improves performance
08:14:45  <^Spike^> Best Effort at all times ;)
08:14:54  <andythenorth> do I get a service credit? o_O
08:14:57  <^Spike^> :)
08:15:02  <andythenorth> 1% of fees per hour downtime?
08:15:34  <^Spike^> if you first pay my hourly rate we can consider something ;)
08:16:19  <andythenorth> I’ll get back to you
08:17:03  <andythenorth> so lesson from FIRS, you can’t easily have an industry set with more than 64 industries, using nml
08:17:10  <^Spike^> hehe :)
08:17:28  * andythenorth now trying to figure out if there’s a cheat
08:21:11  <Supercheese> Oh, eints is down though
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08:21:59  <^Spike^> still?
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08:22:08  <^Spike^> should be running
08:22:22  <andythenorth> 503
08:22:26  <planetmaker> I get e-mails about eints exceptions. probably db connection or so
08:22:26  <^Spike^> hmmm
08:22:43  <^Spike^> which is weird.... considering db was up before eints
08:24:04  <planetmaker> trying reboot there?
08:25:08  <planetmaker> hm, no
08:26:10  <planetmaker> there
08:26:39  <planetmaker> dunno if ^Spike^ did anything concurrently, too, though ;)
08:28:08  <^Spike^> nop
08:28:11  <^Spike^> fixing a mysql cluster atm :)
08:28:19  <^Spike^> i still also have to work my friend :D
08:28:31  <planetmaker> un-be-liev-able
08:29:07  <^Spike^> considering dev works makes me believe that pgsql works :)
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08:29:31  <planetmaker> eints now works
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08:29:47  <planetmaker> windows-y behaviour. restart fixed it :P
08:29:55  <^Spike^> lol
08:30:00  <^Spike^> blame frosch/alberth ;)
08:30:45  * andythenorth side steps FIRS problem, in similar fashion :P
08:35:46  <andythenorth> sticking plaster applied
08:35:55  <andythenorth> am *not* looking forward to the proper fix :|
08:36:47  * V453000 is considering redoing everything in RAWR except models and textures
08:36:55  <V453000> rendering / postproduction
08:37:03  <andythenorth> this happens
08:37:32  <andythenorth> the separate-grf-per-economy route is looking increasingly attractive for FIRS
08:37:55  <V453000> =D
08:37:59  <andythenorth> :(
08:38:07  <V453000> well why not really
08:38:19  <andythenorth> because also, what’s good about it?
08:38:35  <V453000> having to manage 4 different files because wtf? :D
08:38:57  <V453000> good about it is if you find it more feasible /attractive :D
08:38:57  <andythenorth> seems lame
08:39:07  <V453000> I considered separater RAWRs too
08:39:14  <V453000> it already works that way basically
08:39:31  <V453000> minus farms, those are (currently) the same for all climates
08:39:47  <andythenorth> Cold RAWR, Hot RAWR, Goldilocks RAWR
08:39:52  <V453000> each would have 100MB, not 300
08:40:51  <V453000> the only thing it would miss is the automatic climate detection feature, but every dumass monkey can select the climate they want simply by adding that grf to the list
08:41:35  <andythenorth> I would need a range of grfids
08:41:38  <andythenorth> for my own use
08:41:40  <andythenorth> reserved
08:42:59  <V453000> XD
08:45:40  <andythenorth> hmm
08:45:43  <andythenorth> this all sucks
08:45:49  <andythenorth> maybe I should go shopping or something
08:47:53  <V453000> I am king of in the middle of wtf and wtf place
08:47:59  <V453000> kind of*
08:48:13  <V453000> the renders I make are then cut sprites from, as always
08:48:31  <V453000> BUT to prevent alpha on the edges, the tile models have some extra bits around them, about 10% added
08:48:55  <V453000> -> they are not precise pixel-wise in the results to be cut from anymore
08:49:09  <V453000> so when tracks and everything aligns back, there are few-px differences
08:49:24  <V453000> few-px being 2-subpixel
08:49:30  <V453000> which is ass
08:49:42  <V453000> could be "easily" solved by rendering 1 tile in 1 frame
08:49:49  <V453000> but the amount of frames ._.
08:50:02  <V453000> even that is not end of the world, but the postproduction then gets basically manual insanity
08:50:07  <andythenorth> yeah no
08:50:14  <andythenorth> don’t do that
08:50:22  <V453000> well actually if I write a couple expressions :)
08:50:35  <V453000> javascript powa
08:50:49  <andythenorth> remind me, why do we do this?
08:54:15  <V453000> many reasons
08:54:33  <andythenorth> I think they’re bogus :|
08:54:45  <andythenorth> we could just make simple little sets without pushing any boundaries
08:54:57  <V453000> I enjoy creating it, I love the game, I learn a lot of interesting things, I do something that nobody else is doing, I get appreciation from some people, I spend my time productively,
08:56:02  <andythenorth> he
08:56:05  <V453000> with the aim to make it truly PROPER, I think it makes sense for me to go ultra insane on the postproduction ... though it will be more of slave labour than insane as in good idea
08:56:34  <V453000> separate grfs are another matter, that is just a detail
08:58:04  <andythenorth> first quote's_Apocalypse#Cultural_references
08:58:53  <V453000> :)
09:00:07  <andythenorth> does FIRS really need more than 64 industry types?
09:00:16  <andythenorth> 54 of them are stupid farms
09:00:25  <V453000> if used sensibly, it can utilize them
09:00:29  <V453000> does it need them to be good? no
09:01:14  <planetmaker> 54 farms?
09:01:19  * andythenorth exagerates
09:01:35  <planetmaker> the other 48 are mines :P
09:01:54  <andythenorth> 14 are farms
09:01:56  <andythenorth> 13 *
09:02:00  <planetmaker> nitrate, coal, iore, core, bauxite... :P
09:02:06  <andythenorth> 'mine'
09:02:10  <andythenorth> single industry :P
09:02:26  <planetmaker> stuff digger, stuff grower, stuff user
09:02:30  <andythenorth> trying to work out if I have to do this ‘properly’ (insane hard)
09:02:31  <planetmaker> 3 industries, done
09:02:39  <andythenorth> or if I can cheat for long enough to get away with it
09:03:32  <andythenorth> ‘proper’ means every cb chain has to have a switch checking which industry in which economy
09:03:52  <andythenorth> and then route appropriately
09:04:52  <V453000> I dont understand what are you aiming to do but I am afraid I do not want to? :D
09:04:56  <V453000> izitsafe?
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09:05:04  <andythenorth> I think it’s silly
09:05:20  <andythenorth> I am questioning how many more industries FIRS might grow to
09:06:04  <andythenorth> I was thinking quite a few more, maybe 15 or so
09:06:25  <andythenorth> tyre factory, rice farm, olive farm, cheesemaker
09:06:46  <andythenorth> maybe a ‘wtf’ economy of stupid things
09:06:51  <V453000> XD
09:07:05  <andythenorth> but eh, I’m fighting limits of game
09:07:09  <andythenorth> or rather limits of nml
09:07:13  <V453000> you can have SHITLOAD of industries really, and they can work well, just need some idea how to make them all useful
09:07:20  <andythenorth> this is one thing that would be trivial in nfo
09:07:22  <andythenorth> unusually
09:07:24  <V453000> :)
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09:07:53  <andythenorth> nfo I’d just put all the code for an economy into a single block
09:08:05  <andythenorth> the varact 2 chains would just work
09:08:19  <V453000> go code for SAC ::>
09:08:25  <andythenorth> nice sprites
09:08:32  <andythenorth> I’ve been watching them
09:08:37  <andythenorth> they’re in the place you’re banned from
09:08:37  <V453000> yes they look nice
09:08:42  <V453000> yes
09:08:45  <V453000> I see them for some reason though
09:08:50  <andythenorth> she has pretty much nailed drawing trains
09:09:08  <V453000> she draws nicely about everything, there is no doubt about that
09:09:18  <V453000> but "help me create my own test.grf I will not share" is kind of silly :)
09:09:41  <V453000> silly is politically correct expression of what I am thinking
09:10:25  <andythenorth> cheating looks more and more the better route
09:10:32  <andythenorth> unless we want to increase number of industries?
09:10:38  <andythenorth> 64 -> 255
09:10:44  <andythenorth> or so
09:10:56  <V453000> make a proper system to utilize all 64 first :)
09:11:09  <V453000> the 64 are ever loaded at the same time in the game?
09:11:12  <andythenorth> no
09:11:15  <andythenorth> that would be silly
09:11:16  <V453000> perhaps it would be nice to unify climates
09:11:21  <andythenorth> politically correct ‘silly'
09:11:36  <andythenorth> FIRS has 51 already
09:11:38  <V453000> I dont think it is necessary for a newgrf to work differently in various climates
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09:11:41  <andythenorth> and that is way the fuck too many
09:11:44  <V453000> climate is just a cosmetic thing
09:11:53  <andythenorth> climates are unified in FIRS
09:12:03  <V453000> ah economiez arent
09:12:08  <andythenorth> only change is Sugar Beet / Sugar Cane
09:12:15  <V453000> rightr
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09:12:43  <andythenorth> ugh, I thought I could unify all farms
09:12:50  <andythenorth> because I thought they had same cb chain
09:13:00  <andythenorth> but meh
09:13:05  <andythenorth> different location rules
09:14:08  <andythenorth> sometimes code is trying to tell you to stop doing what you’re doing
09:14:29  <V453000> that is not code that is voices from the inside :P
09:14:47  <andythenorth> voices
09:15:00  <V453000> you need to inform them about shutting the fuck up and do it anyway
09:16:44  * andythenorth wonders how much a Japanese economy is needed anyway
09:16:51  <andythenorth> same for mediterranean
09:30:59  * andythenorth wonders how much persistent storage is free
09:31:09  <andythenorth> inventing fragile hax
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09:38:56  <andythenorth> bad hax are bad
09:42:53  <supermop> yo
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09:50:13  <supermop> id rather have Japanese and Mediterranean than 4 more permutations of sort of central sort of western sort of northern europe
09:50:25  <supermop> really SE asian would be better though
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09:55:45  <andythenorth> ho
09:55:59  <andythenorth> well with hax I can probably get about another 10 industry types
09:56:08  <andythenorth> which isn’t enough to be worth it imho
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10:05:55  <V453000> what do you need them for even
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10:32:30  <andythenorth> variety between economies
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10:55:41  <supermop> called to get a quote on a hexagonal prism of victorian bluestone today
10:56:28  <supermop> cheaper to have a chunk of balsalt cut and shipped from china rather than from the quarry just outside the city unsurprisingly
10:57:00  <andythenorth> you must be in Australia
10:57:50  <supermop> everything is expensive here, so yes
10:58:19  <supermop> i don't recall much flood basalts in england to be honest
10:58:40  <supermop> although i do recall old volcanic plugs in yorkshire
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10:59:42  <supermop> looking at just buying an old stone lintel from a demolished building and try to cut it myself
11:01:04  <supermop> the odd projects i invent for myself to procrastinate are getting more exotic
11:02:04  <supermop> what about a quarry that produces cut stone (bldg materials) and gravel (stone)?
11:02:47  <andythenorth> valid, if there’s no cement plant
11:02:56  <andythenorth> otherwise stone -> bldg materials is weird
11:03:37  <supermop> only seems to make sense as an odd niche or a pre-modern thing
11:03:53  <V453000> bdmt! :P
11:04:25  <supermop> and even then only if you are using a GS that requires bldgmt and are before the advent of brickyards etc
11:05:59  <supermop> is the fine stone quarry or my desire to take a prism of basalt home with me as a souvenir more weird
11:07:37  <supermop> i think i am close to done with this busy bee game
11:08:22  <andythenorth> any good?
11:08:51  <supermop> yes, small map
11:09:01  <supermop> 1930-48
11:09:15  <supermop> firs, sbb set, pipe, road hog
11:09:49  <supermop> interesting cascading trains and ships down to different routes as network adjusts to new goals
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11:25:18  <andythenorth> hmm
11:25:22  <andythenorth> might have solved it all
11:25:23  <andythenorth> all of it
11:25:24  <andythenorth> ever
11:36:16  <supermop> sounds about right
11:37:17  * andythenorth wonders if 6 varact 2 chains will compile any faster than 66 varact 2 chains
11:37:41  <andythenorth> the 6 will be moderately more complex than the 66, but probably a lot fewer total LOC
11:37:56  <andythenorth> and much smaller total switch count
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12:01:18  <supermop>
12:05:41  <andythenorth> I’d like 10
12:05:47  <andythenorth> shipped to UK
12:05:48  <andythenorth> thanks
12:06:01  <supermop> no problem
12:06:21  <supermop> i only ship via personal courier, first class airfare
12:06:45  <andythenorth> :P
12:07:15  <supermop> ticket+baggage for those probably cheaper than shipping
12:07:50  <supermop> my flight to aus plus oversize fee for my bike in a box was cheaper than just shipping the bike on its own
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12:09:34  <andythenorth> you should have gone somewhere closer
12:09:45  <andythenorth> it makes no economic sense to pay more for travelling further
12:09:51  <andythenorth> according to forums, nearly daily
12:10:39  <supermop> nah, just need to make sure the plane goes slow enough that your airfare is cheap by the time you land
12:11:17  <supermop> as they come around handing out cash refunds if they are delayed but demanding premium payment if they land early
12:11:21  <andythenorth> what if your bike has aged though?
12:11:26  <andythenorth> tyres might be flat
12:11:31  <andythenorth> or it might just be uncool now
12:11:42  <supermop> the industry doesnt mind
12:12:07  <supermop> produces one unit smug satisfaction per unit bike delivered
12:12:52  <supermop> production jumps up if craft beer is delivered within month
12:15:50  * andythenorth trying to not start total rewrite of FIRS
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12:22:30  <dreck> hi
12:27:46  <argoneus> hi dreck
12:27:49  <argoneus> how are you doing today
12:27:51  <argoneus> my train friend
12:27:57  <argoneus> RAWR
12:28:28  <dreck> ?
12:28:42  <V453000> RAWR
12:30:00  <andythenorth> V453000 is my train enemy, not my train friend
12:30:15  <V453000> FOE
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12:30:23  <andythenorth> yeah that
12:30:41  * andythenorth will now rewite all of FIRS
12:30:46  <andythenorth> oh no, wait
12:30:53  * andythenorth will finish current release :|
12:32:29  <dreck> anyway meant to ask this here seeing theres some people from europe too...generally what was the largest tank steam locomotive in operation? (non-mallet that is)
12:32:56  <V453000> steam was run by slugs mainly
12:33:02  <andythenorth> eh, nobody here knows much about trains
12:33:07  <andythenorth> try wikipedia?
12:33:09  <V453000> especially since 1935 when hitler started mass-taming of giant slugs
12:33:38  <V453000> but since many people believed the slugs would be the doom of mankind, some evil countries fought against them and a world war became out of it
12:34:04  <V453000> after that, giant slug population was eliminated and we only know it in memories, books and newgrfs now
12:34:31  <V453000> the slug was a giant steam engine, it even had its own power unit - 1sp, slug power
12:34:38  <V453000> 1 slug power is about 3000hp
12:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> were there woolly slug remains found in sibiria?
12:35:13  <andythenorth> V453000 I think you’re just being silly
12:35:19  <andythenorth> wikipedia has nothing about this
12:35:23  <V453000> but then some slugs in further development in the 1940s had up to  2,16sp (65k hp)
12:35:36  <V453000> wikipedia has some missing parts yes
12:35:55  <V453000> XD yes Eddi, furry slugs were in the northern lands
12:36:46  <V453000> dreck was asking retarded question, I replied appropriately.
12:37:07  <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: i don't know about "largest", but the german BR 61 was a high speed tank steam engine (only two were ever built)
12:37:18  <andythenorth> it’s not a retarded question in rec.trains.foamers or something
12:37:53  <dreck> eddi oh, I keep almost forgetting about that one..thanks I'll recheck it again
12:38:17  <dreck> that was the one in purple/cream (purple/white? I forgot heh) to match its short distance express trainset right  :)
12:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, purple/cream(-ish) was the livery of express trains of that era
12:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> this particular one operated between Berlin and Dresden
12:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> most of the rest of the network was operated by diesel MUs
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12:42:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can you think of any theoretical reason why industries can’t share switch chains where the behaviour is common (and industry-specific results can be written out by code generator)?
12:43:28  <andythenorth> long q, sorry
12:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i can think of loads of things...
12:43:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but mostly of the type "things you could do wrong"
12:44:07  <dreck> ah dmu .. that reminds me also of that almost-all-purple triangularish-shaped-front unit ..SVT1-something .. but anyway thanks for the BR61 tho .. back to more crunching now here :)
12:44:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not "things that will utterly prevent this from existing"
12:44:36  <andythenorth> can’t read any industry properties directly
12:44:53  <andythenorth> everything that you want to read has to be stuffed into temp storage at start of chain afaict
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12:45:09  <andythenorth> not even sure that holds though
12:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you even need that? you already have the economy parameter to read
12:45:44  <andythenorth> I don’t, and it’s nonsense
12:45:57  <andythenorth> cb chain can be scoped to current industry anyway
12:46:15  <andythenorth> confusing myself with how nml presents things, and how nfo actually works
12:47:06  <andythenorth> nmlc is the wildcard here, doing this in nfo would be quite easy to work out
12:47:18  <andythenorth> I don’t know what magic nmlc does to resolve varact 2 chains and ids
12:47:48  <andythenorth> probably I just try it
12:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> try to keep industries that share varaction2 chains close together in the code, otherwise nmlc might run out of IDs
12:49:12  <andythenorth> that is my primary concern
12:49:18  <andythenorth> not enough varact 2 IDs
12:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's usually not a problem
12:49:32  <andythenorth> I already hit that in the spritelayout switches
12:50:52  <andythenorth> teach nmlc to handle it :P
12:51:38  <Eddi|zuHause> add to the grfv9 specs that action2-ids are 16bit :p
12:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> or 32bit :)
12:51:54  <andythenorth> or add an algorithm for reuse
12:52:00  <andythenorth> must just be some kind of graph solver?
12:52:08  * andythenorth can say words he doesn’t really understand
12:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's similar to "register pressure"
12:52:46  <andythenorth> nfo we just reused IDs
12:52:55  <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc does this as well
12:53:20  <andythenorth> what is limit, if you recall?
12:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but some IDs must stay valid because they are used later again
12:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> then you must reorder stuff
12:54:01  <andythenorth> I could probably have the code generator arrange code correctly
12:54:05  <andythenorth> would rather not, but eh
12:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> 256 IDs can be "alive" at any time
12:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a linear chain, the whole chain uses 1 ID over and over again
12:54:52  <andythenorth> that’s worth knowing
12:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> each branch adds an additional ID
12:55:06  <andythenorth> also wondering how nmlc handles split action 0 blocks
12:55:20  <Eddi|zuHause> action0 is irrelevant
12:55:33  <andythenorth> ah this would be action 3
12:55:37  * andythenorth translating nml -> nfo
12:55:43  <andythenorth> whether splitting cb and graphics handling helps with ID consumption
12:56:02  <andythenorth> it must consolidate them to a single action 3, surely?
12:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> action3 is the combination of all "graphics" block
12:56:14  <andythenorth> one and only one action 3 per industry aiui
12:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:56:36  <andythenorth> still easier to think in nfo
12:56:46  <andythenorth> horrible syntax, easy structure & concepts
12:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause> although in theory, you could action7 several action3
12:57:29  <andythenorth> for industry ID reuse, action 7-ed action 3s are inevitable
12:57:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think nmlc does this
12:58:50  <andythenorth> if I’ve counted correctly, I currently have ~66 sets of varact 2 chains
12:58:55  <andythenorth> which can be reduced to 6 sets
12:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause> but also i'm not really sure how nmlc generates action3
12:59:13  <andythenorth> because nearly all behaviour is common, only the specific results need to change for most cbs
12:59:43  <andythenorth> the results are either static and can be written at compile time
12:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds like you need "procedures", but afair, nmlc didn't implement those
13:00:07  <andythenorth> I’ll just shared switch chains
13:00:10  <andythenorth> share *
13:00:17  <andythenorth> hopefully nmlc permits that
13:00:19  <supermop> night
13:00:39  <andythenorth> think it’s done already in some places in FIRS
13:00:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, nmlc should allow that
13:00:55  <andythenorth> construction states use it currently I think
13:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CETS does something like this with the capacity callback
13:01:10  <andythenorth> if I do this, it’s a lot of boring work
13:01:15  <andythenorth> but conceptually quite simple
13:01:25  <andythenorth> FIRS code in repo gets a lot smaller
13:01:31  <andythenorth> FIRS nml gets a lot smaller
13:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "boring" work is the job for the code generator
13:01:53  <andythenorth> well $somebody has to remove all the current manual code per industry
13:01:57  <V453000> so Eddi when is CETS coming out? :P
13:02:10  <andythenorth> and copy the values to a place where generator can read them :)
13:02:14  <andythenorth> $someone = andythenorth
13:02:20  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: when... err... *hides*
13:02:44  <andythenorth> the CPP defines & macros approach to grfs was a nice party trick
13:02:52  <andythenorth> but ugh, scales horribly
13:05:46  <andythenorth> all of this
13:06:02  <andythenorth> gets moved to some python properties or just deleted
13:07:24  <andythenorth> and repeat for 65 other industries
13:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> use a tracking table that contains all data...
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13:09:44  <andythenorth> considered it
13:09:59  <andythenorth> a tracking table is 2 dimensional, so in some ways is the perfect format
13:10:10  <andythenorth> you can read per industry, or per economy
13:10:32  <andythenorth> but eh I dunno, I tried that route with FISH and removed it, something weird about it
13:11:13  <andythenorth> there’s always some case that needs ugly magic-character string handling
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13:13:29  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that's because you see complex structures differently than i do...
13:15:37  <andythenorth> think so
13:16:11  <andythenorth> seems probable that you trust the code you write
13:16:16  <andythenorth> whereas I don’t trust the code I write
13:16:30  <andythenorth> so anything like building a list from string splits
makes me itch
13:16:39  <andythenorth> although every csv and json parser must do the same
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13:28:19  <dreck> hmm got a silly wording question .. would "express" and "fast express" be able to possibly mean different thing or its just really dictionary-style word duplicating?
13:29:30  <andythenorth> tautology
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13:29:36  <andythenorth> express implies fast
13:30:45  <andythenorth> “very fast express” would be absolutely fine
13:30:59  <andythenorth> English ‘rules’ are
13:31:19  <dreck> heh, thanks..I'll have to rethink of some wording
13:35:21  <dreck> local/domestic express .. international express ... hmm nah that doesn't sound good .. heh
13:37:15  <andythenorth> what is it?
13:37:23  <andythenorth> what does it do?
13:39:03  <dreck> oh..sorry lacked a bit context .. just thinking if there was a simple word to differ the 120kph set from the 200kph set without having to bother with numbers .. but I'm thinking at a look now so ar that its probably not so simple to try do it that way
13:39:28  <dreck> ar=far*
13:39:53  <andythenorth> these are trains, or railtypes?
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13:40:54  <dreck> trains
13:41:33  <andythenorth> dunno, just give them names?
13:41:39  <andythenorth> player can read speed in the buy menu
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13:46:35  <dreck> yep going that way :)
13:47:39  <andythenorth> bbl
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14:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: speed designations heavily depend on the timeframe.
14:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: in 2000's DB speak, "regional express" is a sped up local train (about 160km/h, no on board service, usable with local train tickets etc.), and "inter city express" is a very fast long distance train (>200km/h, on board service, only usable with special long distance tickets)
14:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but these definitions are fuzzy at best
14:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> these are complemented by "regional train" (usually up to 120km/h, with some faster exceptions, stops at any station), and "inter city" (up to 200km/h)
14:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but all these are rather bad categories for the game.
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14:23:54  <dreck> yeah theres no 'real' passengers in openttd even if some grfs do try to make some cosmetic differences (such as a pullman coach with lower seat capacity than the standard coach in buy list)
14:33:41  <argoneus> I wish I understood how simcity worked
14:33:45  <argoneus> 4
14:34:35  <dreck> I think I might have figured it out..'generation I express' vs 'generation II express' ..  seem to work .. I'll see what the list looks like later
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14:38:43  <dreck> argoneus maybe try a simplier simcity version? not the best kind of answer I guess but heh
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14:38:57  <argoneus> heh
14:39:27  <dreck> tbh I still have my 2000 Collection cd+papers here :)
14:41:45  <dreck> mind you I know its silly to thinka bout it but all these years I've known that on the back of the jewel case it clearly says "powermacintosh" at least two times but the one single window screenshot they used is from dos instead
14:42:39  <dreck> anyway argoneus theres also always towns in openttd too..just not the kind you can manage as a mayor tho :P
14:42:46  * dreck hehs
14:43:35  <argoneus> I just don't understand
14:43:40  <argoneus> the point of density zones
14:44:02  <argoneus> but this isn't #opensimcity so yeah
14:44:12  <dreck> density? how many does sc4 have?
14:44:23  <argoneus> it has 3 types for each res, com, ind
14:44:33  <argoneus> and different density things require different density things
14:44:46  <argoneus> like low density residents require medium density commercial or some shit
14:44:46  <dreck> argoneus I'm guessing at least 3+ densities for each types?
14:47:25  <argoneus> yeah, 3 densities for each
14:47:46  <dreck> mm I guess they wanted to go overboard with the population micro-management idea :/
14:48:12  <dreck> does it nitpick you a lot on water supply?
14:48:39  <argoneus> not really
14:48:43  <argoneus> I didn't even get that far
14:48:47  <argoneus> they only want electricity
14:48:53  <dreck> argoneus mm mind if I ask what os you using?
14:48:59  <argoneus> win7
14:49:09  <dreck> ok
14:49:49  <dreck> well argoneus just if you wanted to know..I've never really tried 3000 (although I recall the artworks suggested that was when farm fields were introduced) ... but 2000 is pretty simple that its easy to get the hang of...
14:50:09  <argoneus> what about 4?
14:51:23  <dreck> you only got low/high density which means low density only has houses or low-squat buildings while high density has a mix of lowdensity and tower-alike buildings altogether .. and water can be put off for the first few hundred people but electricity is always wanted early on
14:53:25  <dreck> the only one small fault I do sometimes have with the design of things in 2000 was the slight lack of actual public street transport (you only get given a 2x2 bus station tile to build next to the road and thats it)
14:53:57  <dreck> at least with simutrans and ttdxp/openttd you can actually build a real public transit system :)
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15:22:42  <Belugas> good day
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15:29:57  <dreck> wb andy :)
15:30:16  <V453000> hy Belugas
15:30:38  <andythenorth> hmm FISH 2 seems to have high download count
15:30:46  <andythenorth> I guess there are only 2 good ship sets
15:30:50  <andythenorth> and that’s one of them
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15:32:21  <V453000> XD he came to deliver this message.
15:32:28  <V453000> I didnt even manage to respond quickly enough
15:32:42  <dreck> sometimes some people seem to be like that on irc :)
15:34:22  * dreck picks up phone, dial number, demands a burger, hangs up
15:34:25  <dreck> :p
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15:54:08  <andythenorth> food processor
15:54:10  <andythenorth>
15:54:19  <andythenorth> V453000: moar contrast, moar company colour?
15:57:06  <V453000> bit more dark on the pipes on the right I think
15:57:30  <V453000> and some very bright on the silos on the left
15:57:33  <V453000> other than that looks amazing
15:57:50  <andythenorth> Dan made it from bits we already had
15:58:06  <V453000> :)
15:58:09  <andythenorth> layout is exact copy of TTD food processor
15:58:12  <andythenorth> for reasons
15:58:35  <andythenorth> usually copy-paste from other industries requires unifying palette
15:58:41  <andythenorth> I think this is same
15:58:53  <V453000> XD
15:59:16  <V453000> anyway, I gtfo homew
15:59:18  <V453000> bai
15:59:22  <andythenorth> k thanks bai
15:59:25  <andythenorth> etc
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16:16:16  <andythenorth> oops
16:18:26  <andythenorth>
16:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the problem.
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16:19:24  <andythenorth> waves will put the fire out
16:19:33  <andythenorth> fortunately there are no waves in TTD
16:19:39  <andythenorth> although
.there is wind :o
16:19:49  <andythenorth> inconsistent physics :P
16:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> there are waves
16:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's what changes the colour of water
16:20:18  <andythenorth> not in my ottd
16:20:27  <andythenorth> I have to disable animation these days
16:21:03  <andythenorth> otherwise the game chugs
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16:24:31  <andythenorth> also the smoke is wrong? o_O
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16:28:17  <andythenorth> better?
16:28:24  * andythenorth feels like some props might be set wrong...
16:28:47  <andythenorth> also they’re mining nitrate from sea water directly, it seems
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16:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe there are so many people peeeing into the ocean
16:45:34  <andythenorth> fish
16:45:36  <andythenorth> piss in it
16:45:49  * andythenorth has to check the fish tank levels
16:45:54  <andythenorth> not even a fan of fish
16:46:08  <andythenorth> ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph
16:46:19  <andythenorth> nitrite spike = upside down floating fish
16:46:26  * andythenorth has learnt about chemistry
16:46:37  <andythenorth> my wife wanted fish
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16:52:30  <Samu> hi! could we build a bridge over a lock in a future version?
16:55:32  <Alberth> wait until the future arrives, and you'll know
16:56:31  <Alberth> o/ all
16:57:42  <Taede> ello
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16:59:41  <andythenorth> FIRS translations anyone?
16:59:50  <andythenorth> probably release at the weekend, unless bugs
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17:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there are always bugs.
17:02:23  <andythenorth> big bugs
17:02:31  <andythenorth> like wrong cb handling :P
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17:16:02  <Alberth> dutch translation done
17:16:19  <Alberth> he!  he left :(
17:16:37  <planetmaker>  he's very volatile today :)
17:17:54  <Alberth> ah well, he'll be back then :)
17:18:21  <Alberth> time to worry  about evenink food
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17:32:37  <Propliner> Howdy. Is this the right place to ask a question about pathfinding?
17:38:12  <Alberth> you can try :)
17:45:19  <Propliner> What's going on here, the pathfinder shouldn't penalize regular path signals that much, right?
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27128 trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt (2015-01-29 17:45:32 UTC)
17:45:41  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:42  <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 2 changes by kdzar
17:47:58  <Alberth> something coming from the other side?
17:48:35  <Alberth> you can enable display of path reservations, which makes it easier to see what tracks are reserved
17:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that would also be my guess, something from the other side already reserved the platform
17:50:26  <Propliner> There's another train on the other side, but it's past the signal and not heading for this platform
17:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, you use waypoints, that's a problem, because the train will not add penalties beyond the waypoint, so it cannot distinguish full or empty platforms
17:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i reported that years ago, but i don't think anyone ever adressed this
17:52:16  <Alberth> good spot eddi
17:52:16  <Propliner> Oh, I see. Thanks for the tip
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18:02:38  <Alberth> hi hi
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18:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Propliner: instead of sorting by waypoint you might want to try sorting by platform length
18:10:30  <Propliner> Hm. Is it guaranteed that the steamers wouldn't use the terminus platform, ever?
18:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> penalties for too short platform must be higher than for full platform
18:12:31  <Propliner> Could set up a quick test game for that, yeah
18:12:39  <Propliner> Don't wanna risk messing up my timetables
18:12:56  <Alberth> you can always reload an old save game :)
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18:17:20  <Alberth> dutch done andy
18:20:15  <andythenorth> yay
18:20:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: when you add the new open / closing stuff to opengfx+, you can add it to FIRS o_O :P
18:20:48  <andythenorth> he just really wants somebody to do it
18:20:49  <andythenorth> somewhere
18:20:53  <andythenorth> he doesn’t really care where
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18:25:43  <andythenorth>
18:25:46  <andythenorth> progress
18:26:26  <Propliner> Eddi|zuHause: The platform length alone isn't, strangely enough
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18:26:51  <Propliner> It does seem to work though if you also add the penalty of a regular path signal
18:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Propliner: you can tweak the penalties
18:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Propliner: there are absolute penalties (platform is too short or too long) and relative penalties (platform is X tiles too short or too long)
18:29:02  <Propliner> Ah, in OpenTTD.cfg?
18:30:38  <V453000> andythenorth: getting lost a bit in the ground at the moment :)
18:30:43  <V453000> needz moar
18:30:47  <V453000> but other than that, looks great
18:30:55  <andythenorth> brown CC, on brown ground, with brown non-CC
18:30:56  <andythenorth> :P
18:31:03  <andythenorth> too many empty tiles, eh?
18:31:35  <V453000> :)
18:31:37  <Supercheese> better hire some professional Greeble Yetis
18:31:41  <V453000> yeah kind of I think
18:31:49  <V453000> put there some Nitrate heaps :P
18:31:50  <Supercheese> they'll Greeble it what for
18:32:00  <andythenorth> bloody nitrate heaps
18:32:03  <andythenorth> I’m not drawing those
18:32:06  <Supercheese> sounds explosive
18:32:08  <V453000> ps prepare for your death as I will have to add you dumass caroges to NUTS :P
18:32:30  <V453000> pff
18:32:35  <V453000> if not drawing then enw cargoes are boring
18:32:41  <Supercheese> just put giant block-letter N-O_3 on flat wagons
18:32:44  <V453000> humanz want to see them
18:32:55  <Supercheese> Nitrates
18:33:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Propliner: openttd.cfg won't help your current game, you have to tweak them on the console for that
18:33:46  <andythenorth> what do the nitrates look like?
18:33:46  <andythenorth> :P
18:34:09  <Alberth> looks nice andy, open space makes clear the action is underground
18:34:34  <V453000> exactly, leaving it just as a word and transporting it in coal wagons is just boring
18:34:45  <V453000> it can look like anything, but make it look somehow
18:34:48  <andythenorth> searching for pictures, nitrates are mostly
18:34:52  <andythenorth> in an unwanted way
18:35:09  <Supercheese> unless you're a terrorist
18:35:19  <Supercheese> although even then they have accidents
18:35:33  <Alberth> also, you should add an crane builder industry :p
18:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> anything containing nitrogen is explosey
18:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> because molecular nitrogen is one of the most stable compounds on this earth
18:36:03  <andythenorth> clearly it’s white
18:36:11  <Supercheese> except Nitrogen gas
18:36:18  <Supercheese> pretty darn inert
18:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there is this huge gap between nitrogen compounds and molecular nitrogen that is great for explodey stuff
18:37:02  <andythenorth> V453000: covered or bagged
18:37:25  <V453000> covered is not visible :P
18:37:29  <V453000> bagged at least :)
18:37:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: black and white pictures are notoriously inaccurate for guessing colours of things :p
18:37:38  <Alberth> just big white blocks?
18:37:41  <V453000> nuts will have it on hoppers anyway :)
18:37:49  <Supercheese> well, when the B&W is pure white....
18:37:51  <V453000> it is a MINE -> it outputs HEAPS
18:38:49  <Supercheese> Cargo production: 14 Spoonfulls
18:39:14  <Propliner> Eddi|zuHause: Cheers, I'll tinker with the values when I've more time
18:39:17  <Supercheese> most appropriate for toyland sugar mine
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18:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> tablespoons or teaspoons?
18:40:03  <Supercheese> Yes.
18:43:58  <andythenorth> nitrate looks pure white
18:44:52  <andythenorth> I hate heaps
18:45:19  <andythenorth> they always look bad
18:45:19  <Eddi|zuHause> just reuse an existing heap, potentially recoloured
18:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> like from ISR
18:45:33  <andythenorth> I cheat, and get them from baseset currently
18:45:43  <andythenorth> I guess I have to use a CHIPS one
18:45:45  <andythenorth> they suck
18:45:55  <andythenorth> does baseset have sugar pile? o_O
18:46:48  <andythenorth> toyland broke map gen :o
18:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know...
18:46:57  <andythenorth> no town locations :)
18:47:24  <andythenorth> ach come on
18:47:54  <andythenorth> if I can’t have ‘normal’ towns then don’t provide the option :D
18:48:40  <andythenorth> this is ridiculous :)
18:49:17  <andythenorth> very flat, seal level medium, towns normal, industry high, height level 16, smoothness smooth
18:49:26  <andythenorth> seal level? o_O
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18:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> is that involved with klum level?
18:51:17  <andythenorth> plausible
18:51:41  <andythenorth> industries now minimal, seal level 0, variety distribution none
18:51:48  <andythenorth> still failing
18:51:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you have no town names?
18:52:29  <andythenorth> using ‘silly'
18:52:49  <andythenorth> typically gets to 113 out of 116 industries, then ties up my cpu for a bit
18:52:50  <andythenorth> then bails
18:53:05  <andythenorth> “map generation aborted
no suitable town locations"
18:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> but industries are after towns?
18:53:35  <andythenorth> gee it’s slow
18:53:46  <andythenorth> since when was it this slow
18:54:45  * andythenorth never normally uses toyland
18:55:15  <andythenorth> same settings in tropic are near-instant
18:55:55  <andythenorth> ditto sub-arctic, temperate
18:56:01  <andythenorth> yeah toyland is just borked for me
18:56:03  <andythenorth> no loss eh
18:59:40  <frosch123> no houses available?
18:59:46  <frosch123> or something like that
18:59:48  <andythenorth> ho
18:59:50  <andythenorth> maybe it’s TAI
18:59:59  <andythenorth> blame pikka
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19:00:29  <Wolf01> hello
19:01:40  <andythenorth> 4783
19:01:41  <andythenorth> sugar
19:08:43  <Wolf01> milk
19:09:38  <Alberth> tea
19:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but E-numbers are usually 3 digits :p
19:10:04  <Wolf01> in a cake?
19:10:26  <andythenorth> base set sprite numbers are climate specific, eh?
19:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there are sprites that are only used in certain climates
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19:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the original base set puts them in different files
19:11:23  <andythenorth> sugar mine sugar being one I think
19:11:24  <andythenorth> nvm
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19:31:19  <andythenorth>
19:32:29  * andythenorth adding more processors
19:32:35  <Wolf01> andythenorth, did you see the LEGO SHIELD helicarrier? I say it does have too much black, but it's really nice and well done
19:32:43  <andythenorth> it’s interesting
19:32:51  <andythenorth> I know nothing about these comics sets :)
19:32:54  <Wolf01> also, nice industry
19:37:11  <andythenorth> better
19:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never in my life really followed superhero comics. i knew of batman, spiderman and superman, and suddenly there are hundreds of them everywhere
19:40:38  <Wolf01> me too
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19:59:19  <andythenorth> hmm
19:59:29  <andythenorth> I want to locate nitrate mines in desert
19:59:32  <andythenorth> but not break other climates
19:59:41  <andythenorth> disallow rainforest?
20:00:09  <frosch123> there is also normal land in tropic
20:00:44  <frosch123> just check the climate as well :)
20:01:00  <frosch123> climate != TROPIC || tropic_zone == DESERT
20:01:13  <andythenorth> eh, I don’t know how the FIRS templates do that :)
20:01:20  <andythenorth> I didn’t write them, not inclined to touch them
20:01:52  <frosch123> i though you would know how to check for rainforest
20:02:13  <frosch123> isn't there some location check somewhere?
20:02:15  <andythenorth> I was just going to pass TILETYPE_RAIN_FOREST to the macro
20:02:19  <andythenorth> and see what happened
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20:03:04  <andythenorth> although
I’ve enforced flat land, mostly building in desert anyway
20:03:10  <andythenorth> maybe I leave it be
20:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "i randomly type letters until some combination shows an effect" sounds like a terrible approach
20:05:58  <andythenorth> I dunno
20:06:07  <andythenorth> apparently has results
20:06:12  <andythenorth> correlation != causation
20:30:05  <andythenorth> eh these mines don’t cluster
20:30:08  <andythenorth> which looks better
20:30:16  <andythenorth> maybe clustering is wrong
20:30:58  <andythenorth> going to set them to cluster anyway, for consistent internal API
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20:52:27  <andythenorth> oh
20:52:29  <andythenorth> there’s a vehicle factory
20:52:45  <andythenorth> they’re going to ask me if it can produce trains and provide them to depots :|
20:54:33  <Wolf01> purchase trains from industries! You first need to set up a route to provide the raw materials... wheelbarrows?
20:56:03  <andythenorth> “haters gonna hate"
20:56:08  <andythenorth> “idiots gonna id"
20:59:03  <Alberth> vehicle != train
21:00:03  <Alberth> you need a wheelbarrow factory first
21:00:14  <Alberth> not to mention a factory factory
21:01:58  <Wolf01> we could start with sticks and rocks
21:02:21  <Wolf01> then tame some horses
21:03:00  <andythenorth> lugs
21:03:03  <andythenorth> slugs even
21:03:11  <andythenorth> when compiling FIRS, my keyboard lags
21:03:25  <andythenorth> which is odd because it’s only single threaded
21:03:34  <andythenorth> and the other 3 thread units are doing bugger all
21:04:26  <Wolf01> pfff when I use PHPStorm I type so fast I fill the buffer, so I need to switch the usb port to be able to type again
21:04:57  <Alberth> storm isn't that big thus :p
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21:05:43  <Wolf01> tbh, I don't know why that does happen, it could be a problem with the keyboard, but it happen only when PHPStorm autocompletes stuff
21:06:03  <Wolf01> and it blocks the keyboard system wise
21:07:05  <Alberth> sounds like it's doing real low level access
21:08:52  <Wolf01> it could be the keyboard going stupid, it's a microsoft cordless one, works well while works
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21:18:55  <andythenorth> eh, I think it’s probably done
21:18:57  <andythenorth> more translations?
21:18:59  <andythenorth> testing?
21:19:04  <Alberth> sleep
21:19:16  <Wolf01> lego
21:19:51  <andythenorth> both
21:25:17  <Alberth> dreaming about lego
21:26:41  <andythenorth> :P
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21:48:06  <andythenorth> eh changelog done
21:50:09  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Any chance of this thing in SQUID?
21:50:14  <FLHerne> Very futuristic-looking
21:54:24  <andythenorth> it was planned as a fast coaster
21:54:32  <andythenorth> but I can’t draw it
21:54:34  <andythenorth> or cba
21:54:45  <andythenorth> also, irl, not fast, just efficient and good at seaholding
21:56:00  <FLHerne> Lower running costs?
21:56:11  <FLHerne> Except no-one cares about those for ships anyway
21:57:46  <FLHerne> Wasn't the Kwangtung tug one of those X-Bow thingies?
21:59:16  <FLHerne> No, my memory is broken
22:00:50  <andythenorth> if someone drew it, there would be X-Bow
22:00:53  <andythenorth> or renderised
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22:49:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:37:44  <peter1138> Hmm, forgot how hard Episode 3 of Doom is...
23:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't even know doom had "episodes"
23:45:21  <peter1138> Er, yeah... Episode 1 was the shareware part.

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