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Log for #openttd on 30th January 2015:
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00:07:04  *** Biolunar [Biolunar@blfd-d9bf65c4.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #openttd
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00:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so basically it's "DLC" before there was "DL"?
00:31:38  <peter1138> Not really, you didn't pay for Episode 1...
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00:36:38  <dreck> hi
00:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so it was also "F2P"
00:47:08  <dreck> whats the topic atm?
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01:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it says the topic when you join
01:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> (also, there are logs)
01:33:22  <dreck> I don't see a f2p-something in the topic? and mm ... logs?
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02:07:43  * dreck almost want to whack the wagon list into a pile of rubbish :-s
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02:18:28  <dreck> oh well the loco list seem to be coming out nicely
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03:08:18  <berndj> how do i read the cargo dist map? i have lines but how do i know which direction is which? i want to reinforce overloaded routes with more buses
03:11:13  <Sylf> You set your distribution asymmetric?
03:14:22  <berndj> yes, looks like it
03:22:26  <Sylf> I really have no idea how to tell which line is which direction
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07:19:48  <supermop> yo
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08:30:00  <andythenorth> so bored of these FIRS string code warnings on compile
08:30:19  <supermop> whats a good place for design documents thats public but nott too public
08:30:24  <andythenorth> devzone
08:30:42  <supermop> so i can show some things but not quite ready for forum yet
08:30:53  <andythenorth> hmm
08:31:03  <andythenorth> if I fix strings locally, does eints merge that back?
08:31:05  * andythenorth wonders
08:31:10  <supermop> i just wrote this out on paper and photographed it
08:31:15  * andythenorth could read the eints source
08:32:44  <supermop> how do i put things on devzone?
08:32:50  <andythenorth> has to be in a project
08:32:57  <andythenorth> might not be the best suggestion actually :P
08:33:13  <andythenorth> unless you have a project
08:33:23  <andythenorth> oh eh I’m just deleting these strings
08:33:25  <supermop> so far the project is a few basic renderingss and this thing i just wrote out by hand
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08:33:59  <supermop> i'd better start cooking dinnner soon
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08:36:50  <Supercheese> quite the non sequitur
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08:38:38  <andythenorth> shall I tag and release?
08:38:46  <andythenorth> or is someone going to play test it a bit?
08:39:31  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
08:39:38  <andythenorth> eh, maybe release later
08:40:29  <Supercheese> fresh push build eh?
08:42:24  <andythenorth> bug fixes
08:42:43  <andythenorth> think it’s done though
08:45:55  <Supercheese> Are Game Script Parameter strings translateable? It seems that most if not all GS hard-code their strings in info.nut
08:46:40  <Supercheese> thus they are unavailable in the .lang files and eints
08:49:43  <andythenorth> they can be translateable
08:49:46  <andythenorth> Busy Bee does it
08:49:57  <andythenorth> has to be handled explicitly in the GS
08:50:14  <Supercheese> Busy Bee does not, from what I can see
08:50:29  <Supercheese> unless I am mistaken they are hardcoded
08:50:50  <Supercheese>                        description="Number of goals for a company",
08:50:57  <Supercheese> string directly embedded
08:52:20  <andythenorth> oh parameters :o
08:52:26  <andythenorth> ok
08:52:35  <andythenorth> I would be surprised if they’re not translateable
08:53:42  <Supercheese> If possible, could they be changed to, I presume, STR_* calls and exposed to eints for translation?
08:54:00  <Supercheese> the above and "Number of years to wait to fulfill a new goal"
08:54:02  <andythenorth> can’t see anything in docs about how to translate those
08:54:13  * Supercheese knows little about GS
08:55:13  <Supercheese> Hmm, also the "Make connection, transport cargo" bit is hardcoded, perhaps there is some restriction present on these portions
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08:55:57  <andythenorth> bbl
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09:36:19  <argoneus> hi train friends
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09:49:22  <andythenorth> moin planetmaker
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09:56:08  * andythenorth borks the FIRS release
09:56:30  <andythenorth> I should read the docs on hgtags instead of guessing
09:56:32  <andythenorth> wrong every time
09:58:51  <andythenorth> hmm
09:58:55  <andythenorth> bundles has built 1.4.0 fine
09:59:09  <andythenorth> but my local build won’t build the bundle correctly (wrong file name)
09:59:10  <andythenorth> nvm
10:00:34  <andythenorth> same for 1.4.1, so it’s not just fat fingers
10:04:36  <andythenorth> bundles fails for 1.4.1
10:04:38  <andythenorth> hey ho
10:04:47  <andythenorth> probably I’ve borked the repo :)
10:04:49  <andythenorth> bbl
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11:28:12  <andythenorth> planetmaker: which target should I use to build a release? o_O
11:29:29  <planetmaker> hg up TAG
11:29:37  <planetmaker> and then build normally
11:29:45  <planetmaker> make bundle; make bundle_zip
11:30:03  <planetmaker> didn't the CF build it properly?
11:31:17  <planetmaker> the filename is strange indeed.
11:32:14  <planetmaker> does it announce itself properly ingame at least?
11:39:56  <supermop> ok
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11:40:21  <dreck> hi
11:51:44  *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po1-84-90-249-192.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
11:51:47  <Samu> hi
11:52:38  <Samu> why do I get an error saying "your computer is too slow to keep up with the server"? My computer is definitely not slow
11:52:56  <Samu> I am lagging instead
11:53:08  <Samu> my internet
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11:55:13  <dreck> samu its a weird misleading wording at least half of the times...
11:55:36  <Samu> and it's a weird kind of lag
11:55:47  <dreck> it really is saying "your connection is not pinging back quick enough to stablize your entry onto the map" in a blunt wording of my own
11:56:04  <Samu> I see the game running fine, and suddenly, boom i get that error
11:56:21  <Samu> but i can't build or chat anything~
11:57:21  <ST2> can be an ISP <-> Server thing (that server is in a Canadian datacenter, wich don't helps :P)
11:57:37  <dreck> just asking samu..did you try a different map? sometimes its not exactly your own fault but the server or you-to-them isp routing fault
11:57:56  <planetmaker> how can that be the server's fault?
11:57:57  <dreck> if all games does the same thing then it IS your own side thats craped up :/
11:58:34  <Samu> packet loss?
11:58:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yeah FIRS displays correctly in game
11:58:53  <Samu> let me trace route the server
11:58:56  <andythenorth> just the bundle name is wrong I think
11:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: you do not necessarily notice the game slowing down at first
11:59:13  <andythenorth> I was mistaken earlier, CF is doing it wrong, not just my local build, but you noticed that already :)
11:59:32  <dreck> planetmaker I've seen the rare wonky server with rather low sync/ping/etc settings that more than often almost noone can really play at all except the actual server computer owner himself
11:59:41  <dreck> so thats why I mentioned it
11:59:52  <Samu> i thought it was on netherlands
12:02:45  * andythenorth tries to figure out if a mercurial tag can be deleted / pointed to a different revision
12:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> delete the repo and clone it from an earlier repo that doesn't yet have the tag
12:04:56  <andythenorth> nah it’s been pushed
12:05:04  <andythenorth> unlikely to be fixable
12:05:25  <andythenorth> you can only do this on git through social means (you have to find everyone with a checkout and get them all to delete the tag)
12:05:33  <andythenorth> hg is probably same
12:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you have no idea who cloned/pulled since then
12:05:56  <planetmaker> andythenorth, if just the filename is wrong... it's nothing to worry about much. If it bothers you I can manually rename those on the bundles server. And please bug me again Monday or so
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12:06:13  <andythenorth> released version number doesn’t match changelog either
12:06:19  <planetmaker> hu?
12:06:24  <andythenorth> because I made 1.4.1 to see what CF would do ;)
12:06:36  <andythenorth> should have made a test tag :P
12:06:39  <andythenorth> nvm
12:08:58  <supermop> ok soo
12:09:10  <supermop> fora post or devzone?
12:10:30  <supermop> hmm V not around
12:18:15  <Samu> http://pastebin.com/iYK3FASg
12:20:36  <supermop> ok: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1141740#p1141740
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12:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that doesn't look quite right
12:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ...
12:21:18  *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po1-84-90-249-192.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
12:21:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that doesn't look quite right
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12:21:55  <Samu> I'm not lagging at the momen
12:22:12  <Samu> but I still get those results
12:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that clearly shows canada...
12:25:36  <Samu> makes me think these trace route programs being useless
12:25:51  <Samu> it shows tons of packet loss, but I'm not lagging now
12:27:31  <Samu> even 10.27.0.1 gets packet loss, 1 out of 1280
12:27:35  <Samu> meh
12:27:40  <andythenorth> new FIRS is new
12:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> low packet loss you can ignore
12:28:01  <andythenorth> eh how do I maintain stable branch, whilst completely rewriting FIRS?
12:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> itS the double digit % i would worry about
12:28:05  <andythenorth> there will be bugs and translations
12:28:25  <supermop> good night all
12:28:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but not all of them matter, either
12:28:32  <Samu> 10.27.0.1 is my modem
12:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
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12:28:54  <Samu> why would it have packet loss
12:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause> solar wind...
12:29:06  <Samu> i'm connecting with a ethernet cable
12:29:12  <andythenorth> packets go missing
12:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> spontaneous radioactive decay
12:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> or a plain and simple collision
12:30:24  <andythenorth> cheap switch
12:30:26  <andythenorth> hot switch
12:30:31  <andythenorth> bad ethernet cable
12:30:36  <andythenorth> bad connection
12:30:41  <andythenorth> bad shielding
12:30:46  <andythenorth> crosstalk
12:30:56  <Samu> bad shielding?
12:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "1 out of 1280" is completely and utterly irrelevant
12:31:38  <andythenorth> theoretical case: run a sub-standard ethernet cable next to a mains supply
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12:31:55  <andythenorth> it’s 0.07%
12:32:16  <andythenorth> pff
12:32:38  <andythenorth> on a contended wifi network it could be 20%
12:33:21  * andythenorth ponders mercurial branch management
12:33:31  <andythenorth> does eints only use stable for a project?
12:34:10  <Samu> the ethernet cable shouldn't be the issue
12:34:16  <Samu> it's quite long though, 15 meters
12:35:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm sure eints can be configured for a specific branch
12:35:53  <dreck> if noone minds a second topic: should a powerplant be able to accept both coal and oil or only one or other in term of cargo vectors on map?
12:36:07  <andythenorth> probably can just do ‘rebuild FIRS’ in a branch
12:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: 15m is not long
12:36:14  <andythenorth> leave stable alone for fixes and translations
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12:37:06  <andythenorth> I’m going to fat-finger it and commit to wrong branch though
12:37:13  <andythenorth> and there’s no safe way back in hg from that :P
12:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: i'd consider it bad style if an industry randomly flips off an input cargo, rather make two types of power plant industry then
12:37:43  <Samu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
12:38:10  <andythenorth> hmm, my git is configured to show current branch in shell prompt
12:38:17  <andythenorth> must be able to make hg do that
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12:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that should be configurable in your shell, not in git/hg
12:38:59  <andythenorth> seems so
12:39:04  <andythenorth> according to google results
12:39:17  <andythenorth> dunno how it’s done for git
12:39:34  <Samu> there is no ground
12:39:41  <andythenorth> export GIT_PS1_SHOWDIRTYSTATE=1
12:39:41  <andythenorth> PS1='\h:\W \u$(__git_ps1) $ '
12:39:42  <Samu> erm dunnot how to say it in english
12:39:51  <andythenorth> what’s that do then? ^^ :D
12:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: there is usually a ground built into your electric cables, and the ethernet cable's shielding should be connected to ground as well
12:40:49  <Samu> no grounding wire?
12:41:04  <Samu> well, that's the issue
12:41:24  <Samu> there is no grounding wire on the wall power thing
12:42:07  <Eddi|zuHause> ermm... that should probably not happen
12:43:03  <Samu> what's an ethernet cable shield?
12:43:14  <planetmaker> if there's no earth wire in the mains socket... then you have a problem :)
12:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: if your house is cabled incorrectly, you should probably hire an electrician to fix it
12:43:28  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t go poking too much to find out either
12:43:45  <andythenorth> hmm
12:43:51  <andythenorth> seems I have to install hg-prompt
12:43:59  <andythenorth> don’t like installing random things from the internet :(
12:44:05  <Samu> ah planetmaker knows the terms, the main socket has no earth wire
12:44:21  <Samu> it plugs my monitor and computer
12:44:22  <andythenorth> how interesting
12:44:38  <andythenorth> that’s
unusual, in the UK at least
12:44:53  <Samu> but, on the other side of the house, my modem is plugged in a properly earth wired socket
12:45:19  <Samu> terrible english
12:45:24  <Samu> hope you undestand
12:46:37  <dreck> eddi I was also thinking that coal-firing and oil-firing probably look very different (coal having old style big chimney while oil having a few thin "tubes" reaching to the sky) too :)
12:46:40  <dreck> thanks anyway :)
12:47:24  <Samu> there's 2 sockets, modem is plugged in a earth-wired socket, computer is plugged in a non earth-wired socket, then the ethernet cables connects computer to modem, a 15 meters long cable
12:47:40  <Samu> cable*
12:47:44  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you do not need hg-prompt. Just use proper output of hg log -l1 -r. --template='(whatever)'
12:47:51  <planetmaker> hg help revset
12:47:56  <planetmaker> to see what template eats
12:48:38  <andythenorth> and to make my shell show that?  Something in bash_profile?
12:48:40  <Samu> computer shocks to my touching
12:48:56  <planetmaker> same as you modify your shell prompt for other occasions
12:48:59  <planetmaker> I'd think
12:49:26  <planetmaker> http://sjl.bitbucket.org/hg-prompt/quickstart/
12:49:35  <planetmaker> ^ that way. Just use hg log instead of hg prompt
12:49:48  <andythenorth> thanks
12:50:42  <andythenorth> ok, that looks viable thanks
12:51:41  <andythenorth> wow many options :o
12:52:08  <Eddi|zuHause> http://felix.delattre.de/weblog/2015/01/29/surveillance-as-a-service
12:57:20  <planetmaker> hg log --template='{branch}-{rev} {if(tags," ({tags})")} {if(bookmarks," ({bookmarks})")}' -l1
12:57:40  <planetmaker> ^ andythenorth
12:57:52  <andythenorth> ho
12:57:54  <andythenorth> will try thanks :)
12:57:59  * andythenorth was learning shell the hard way :(
12:58:05  <andythenorth> echo doesn’t print spaces :P
12:58:34  <andythenorth> nice
13:00:33  <andythenorth> changed it a bit
13:00:36  <andythenorth> results in
13:00:36  <andythenorth> pdq2s-MacBook-Pro-2 in ~/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build (default) r4109 (tip)
13:00:54  <andythenorth> makes branches a bit less dangerous
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13:10:49  <andythenorth> hmm
13:10:52  <andythenorth> shows the wrong branch
13:11:30  <andythenorth> have to do “source ~/.bash_profile” when switching branch
13:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> then you inserted the check in the wrong place (not that i would know where the right place is)#
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13:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't fiddled with prompt settings since DOS...
13:14:43  <andythenorth> I suspect the shell command is only running once
13:14:48  <andythenorth> shell is arcane
13:20:18  <planetmaker> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbdzg6mya <-- that hg prompt was a good pointer though. I now use this prompt
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13:53:00  <deniz1a> hello.
13:53:17  <deniz1a> is there a project to rewrite openttd in c# called sharpttd?
13:53:30  <deniz1a> with 3d graphics?
13:55:42  <__ln__> hahaha
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13:57:53  <deniz1a> why?
13:57:55  <andythenorth> planetmaker: what happens with your prompt if you switch branch?
13:58:45  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I adopted it a bit: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pblbfudej
13:59:19  <planetmaker> an earlier version might not always have behaved gracefully :)
14:00:21  <andythenorth> yeah your paste works for me
14:01:07  <andythenorth> so it’s checking hg st for results?
14:01:12  <andythenorth> and updating if something changed?
14:01:17  * andythenorth is not good at shell
14:01:18  <planetmaker> no, that not
14:01:36  <planetmaker> that's just to find out whether I'm in a repo at all (and to skip that stuff when not)
14:01:40  <andythenorth> ah
14:01:49  <planetmaker> it's only updated when you enter the prompt, e.g. when it's printed
14:03:13  <andythenorth> wondering why my version needed bash_profile reloaded to show changes
14:04:26  <planetmaker> that was a wonderful idea anyway, andythenorth :)
14:05:00  <andythenorth> for ${reasons} I’ve been scared away from branches in hg
14:05:08  <andythenorth> which makes it seem very painful to use
14:05:19  <andythenorth> I think the reasons are bogus
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14:06:50  <planetmaker> hg bookmars ~= git branches
14:07:03  <planetmaker> hg branches != anything in git
14:07:14  <planetmaker> hg branches are more persistant
14:07:35  <planetmaker> however using them does not hurt, if you name them thoughtfully :)
14:07:55  <planetmaker> doesn't hurt at all
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14:10:58  <andythenorth> maybe I need to learn bookmarks
14:11:31  <andythenorth> with git, we have master <- milestone branch <- feature branch <- (decomposed parts of feature branch, quite rare)
14:12:25  <deniz1a> someone posted this screenshot in the forums: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=80484
14:14:22  * andythenorth reads about bookmarks
14:14:49  <deniz1a> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=80696
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14:15:09  <__ln__> deniz1a: i bet the hardest part of it is not yet done, and won't be done.
14:15:39  <deniz1a> oh and it was posted in 2007...
14:16:38  <__ln__> my point exactly
14:17:07  <deniz1a> so is anyone planning on adding 3d to openttd?
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14:21:14  <__ln__> i doubt it can be "added" without rewriting huge portions of the codebase.
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14:23:31  <deniz1a> so is that planned?
14:23:40  <__ln__> nope.
14:24:02  <deniz1a> do you mean nope as in no or as maybe?
14:25:06  <__ln__> i heard there's one deniz1a person on irc who is planning it.
14:25:10  <deniz1a> if the codebase was modular maybe 3d could be added without rewriting non-graphical parts
14:26:17  <__ln__> that's a big if
14:26:37  <deniz1a> yes i am planning on writing 3d openttd. but to create it, first i have to learn programming
14:26:56  <deniz1a> i like to plan far ahead
14:27:44  <__ln__> besides, openttd is already 3d for some definition of 3d.
14:28:21  <deniz1a> also a strategic zoom feature would be great, where you could zoom out all the way and see the whole map with buildings and vehicles as icons
14:28:42  <deniz1a> yes terrain is 3d but you cant rotate and tilt the camera
14:29:24  <deniz1a> think about attaching the camera to a train and following it from its perspective
14:32:35  <deniz1a> ok different idea: how about adding multiple layers? so on top layer you have trains and trucks, in a lower layer for example you have subway?
14:32:50  <deniz1a> you would switch layers in the viewport
14:34:27  <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/3d/tunnel.png ?
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14:34:56  <deniz1a> oh that's great. is it a feature being developed?
14:36:13  <planetmaker> no(t exactly)
14:36:27  <andythenorth> smatz madness :)
14:36:47  <planetmaker> the closest there currently is, is a 3-year-old attempt to prepare the map for more layers: http://icosahedron.de/openttd/git/newmap.git
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14:42:28  <Belugas> hello
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15:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: if you're longing for a 3D TTD, maybe you should check out Train Fever.
15:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably the closest you're going to get in the next decade...
15:05:41  <andythenorth> crowd-funded, money, active development
15:05:47  <deniz1a> oh i checked it and didnt look that good. at least from screenshots etc
15:05:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: next 2 decades
15:05:59  <andythenorth> 3D OTTD will look bloody awful
15:06:10  <deniz1a> why would it?
15:06:23  <andythenorth> for the same reason that most newgrfs look awful
15:06:41  <andythenorth> high quality game art takes time, skill, and probably money
15:06:54  <deniz1a> actually creating 3d objects could be easier than drwing 2d sprites
15:07:18  <andythenorth> it’s subjectively easier
15:07:27  <andythenorth> faster to get results
15:07:31  <andythenorth> are the results good?
15:07:32  <andythenorth> unlikely
15:07:37  <deniz1a> and as textures maybe you could use photos from real world trains etc
15:07:49  <andythenorth> that looks terrible
15:07:58  <deniz1a> what looks terrible?
15:08:09  <andythenorth> unprocessed photos as textures
15:08:22  <deniz1a> ok i just thought about it
15:08:27  <deniz1a> to make it easier
15:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> photos are probably the worst way to go...
15:08:49  <andythenorth> Train Fever is the way to go
15:08:59  <andythenorth> I know at least one person who is currently addicted
15:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few UI troubles that keep me from getting addicted...
15:09:25  <andythenorth> they might fix them
15:09:35  <andythenorth> apparently there is a community building around it (haven’t looked)
15:10:21  <deniz1a> but it's not open source
15:10:36  <deniz1a> so it will be stuck like it is
15:10:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not stuck...
15:11:11  <deniz1a> The game is a single-player game designed for 20 hours of gameplay in which the story-time runs from 1850 until 2050
15:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and who knows, if they get tired of developing it, they might open source it
15:11:18  <deniz1a> so no multiplayer?
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15:11:38  <andythenorth> multiplayer is hard
15:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> games like this are inherently single player...
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15:12:29  <Eddi|zuHause> like maybe 0.01% of all openttd players ever played multiplayer
15:12:41  <deniz1a> why? you compete with other companies
15:13:06  <deniz1a> but those 0.01 % are the most awesome ones
15:13:24  <andythenorth> looks like active modding community for TF
15:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> if you think from a commercially viable standpoint, it's probably wasted effort...
15:13:31  <andythenorth> probably more active than OTTD
15:14:15  <andythenorth> although it might be mostly requests :o
15:14:19  <deniz1a> what's wasted effort?
15:14:43  <andythenorth> multiplayer
15:14:49  <deniz1a> why?
15:14:56  <deniz1a> it's fun
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15:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: if you take openttd's multiplayer mode, it takes a huuuuuge number of development hours to implement it, and keep it maintained
15:15:45  <deniz1a> actually if the economy in openttd was right, there could be tournaments and such
15:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that will never ever happen.
15:16:12  <deniz1a> why not?
15:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "the economy" is unfixable on that level
15:16:38  <deniz1a> not with that attitude
15:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, go ahead and do it. we'll see you in 10 years when you're done.
15:17:03  <deniz1a> or it is unfixable with tht attitude
15:17:11  <deniz1a> ok
15:17:31  <__ln__> while you're at it, please fix the economic situation in greece.
15:17:37  <deniz1a> actually fixing the economy is very easy. you just tweak the already present parameters
15:17:58  <deniz1a> i will fix world economy after i implement 3d openttd
15:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's the entire point. the "present parameters" are not enough to "fix" anything. the game is either impossible in the beginning, or trivial after a while
15:21:09  <deniz1a> it could be fixed like this: make cargo payments independent of distance and make each receiver industry have a processing capacity
15:21:29  <deniz1a> then make it possible for each company to set its own cargo payment rates to compete with other companies
15:21:45  <peter1138> Just make a different game.
15:21:49  <deniz1a> then implement some kind of a rule that prevents a single company overtaking everyone else
15:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: so, which part of that is a "present parameter"?
15:23:01  <deniz1a> well i used the word present rather loosely
15:23:15  <deniz1a> in that context it meant present-ish
15:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you're saying "if we lived in middle earth, we could fix greece's economy"
15:24:21  <deniz1a> well we can do that even while living on top of the earth
15:24:26  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that more constructive than me saying "it's unfixable"?
15:24:46  <deniz1a> it encourages development
15:25:02  <deniz1a> instills hope among the masses of openttd players
15:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're missing the point how open source hobby projects work...
15:25:14  <deniz1a> who desperately yearn for that future
15:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "hope that somebody else does it" does not get ANYTHING done
15:26:26  <deniz1a> still better than saying it's impossible
15:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it is.
15:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you ever took more than 3 steps in that direction, you would realize it.
15:27:31  <deniz1a> it's not impossible, as i said it could be done in a newgrf
15:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a NewGRF does not allow you to set your own transportation fares either.
15:28:34  <deniz1a> there's no api to do that?
15:28:47  <deniz1a> then first we have to implement it!
15:29:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and who is "we"?
15:29:54  <deniz1a> we the people of openttd
15:30:03  <deniz1a> not me of course
15:30:09  <deniz1a> i mean the other people
15:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's exactly what i said before: NOBODY ELSE WILL DO IT.
15:32:08  <deniz1a> then i will do that before i implement 3d openttd and fix world economy
15:34:03  <peter1138>  :D
15:34:10  <peter1138> Someone™
15:39:28  <deniz1a> Someone™ ?
15:42:54  <deniz1a> bu think about it, how could we fix world economy if we can't even fix it in openttd?
15:45:57  <deniz1a> if we fix economy in openttd, we could say to the people of the world: look we fixed it in this game, see, it's easy
15:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause> there cannot ever be a sufficiently complex model that is both complete and consistent (vaguely after Gödel)
15:47:00  <deniz1a> so are you saying my assumption is unprovable?
15:47:52  <deniz1a> or not assumption but conjecture
15:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm saying the economy is unfixable.
15:49:35  <deniz1a> so you're saying the above changes i mentioned are impossible to implement?
15:49:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm saying the economy is unfixable.
15:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you're going to implement, it won't fix the economy
15:50:12  <deniz1a> you mean the economy in the outside world?
15:50:38  <deniz1a> oh you're saying those changes wouldn't make the game better?
15:51:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no finite number of steps you can take to move the economy into a state that would be considered "fixed"
15:51:56  <deniz1a> but there are steps which would bring us closer to that unreachable goal?
15:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but they might as well just take us further away
15:53:03  <deniz1a> i say that there are changes which would improve the economy. even though they may not make it perfect
15:53:45  <Eddi|zuHause> because there's no metric about how "close" you are to that "fixed state", that's not even proven to exist as a limit
15:54:20  <deniz1a> but we can know the direction of that fixed state and any change that moves us towards it is an improvement
15:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you said loads of things, but the condensed content is approaching 0
15:55:11  <deniz1a> from which direction? if it's approaching zero from negative infinity, then i'm making progress
15:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> metrics are non-negative by definition
15:56:14  <deniz1a> so you don't like my ideas?
15:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm saying so far there was nothing to like or dislike
15:57:23  <Eddi|zuHause> just a whole lot of empty phrases
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15:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> like marketing babble
15:58:43  <deniz1a> what's empty phrase? make cargo payment independent of distance and make receiver industries have processing capacity is easy to do
15:58:50  <deniz1a> and it already improves the economy
16:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that last line is the "empty phrase"
16:00:21  <deniz1a> oh ok
16:00:32  <deniz1a> it makes it more logical and realistic
16:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it doesn't. (that's me disliking your idea)
16:01:20  <deniz1a> think about it from the point of view of the coal mine owner for example
16:01:42  <deniz1a> he wants his coal to be shipped to a power station as quickly as possible
16:02:03  <deniz1a> so why would he pay you more money to transport it to the other side of the map?
16:02:19  <deniz1a> when there's a power station right next to it?
16:02:49  <Eddi|zuHause> we've had this discussion a hundred times: maybe his coal is so much better than the coal on the other side of the map?
16:03:17  <deniz1a> but that's not a parameter in game. if there were different qualities of coal then that would be ok
16:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's why the economy is unfixable.
16:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> just imagine the effect of your suggestion: transporting coal for 5 tiles will get you a fortune with almost no cost
16:04:20  <deniz1a> if you implemented qualities and power stations payed more for higher quality then it would be ok
16:04:27  <__ln__> *paid
16:04:36  <deniz1a> oh yes
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16:05:07  <deniz1a> exactly, but each power station would have a processing capacity
16:05:46  <deniz1a> so when the one next to the coal mine reaches full capacity, you would have to transport it to a farther away power station
16:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that different than the mine having a production capacity?
16:06:27  <deniz1a> because without it, you wouldnt need to expand across the map
16:06:37  <deniz1a> since the closest one brings the most profits
16:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> let me rephrase your suggestion: you want to change the payment model from "you get paid for transporting stuff" to "you buy stuff from the mine and sell it to the inustry"
16:09:42  <deniz1a> no. but the mine pays you for your transport, right?
16:10:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that is unspecified, but more likely the power station would pay you for the transport
16:10:46  <deniz1a> ok, it doesnt matter. a power station would like coal from the closest mine. why would it pay more to bring from a far away one
16:11:08  <Alberth> different type of coal
16:11:23  <deniz1a> ok then that should be implemented. but currently, all coal is the same
16:12:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't say all coal is the same. you just don't get told
16:12:01  <Alberth> not at all, it has originating station
16:12:41  <deniz1a> ok so the coal from the same mine changes quality depending on how far you transport it?
16:13:00  <deniz1a> does coal get ripe in the hopper?
16:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: if you rent a car, you pay for how many days you rent it, and for how far you drive with it.
16:13:37  <deniz1a> but that's not analogous
16:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but it is. the mine/power station "rents" the space in your vehicle
16:14:41  <deniz1a> ok. then why do they rent one that transports from far away? they would pay most for the quickest delivery
16:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe their coal is so much cheaper that it offsets the higher transportation cost?
16:15:17  <deniz1a> but that's not in the game..
16:15:29  <deniz1a> i'm talking about the current state of the game
16:15:41  <Eddi|zuHause> you buy your clothes from bangladesh, not from the next door manufacturer
16:15:51  <deniz1a> and the payment rate only says coal. not coal from this mine or that
16:16:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and the bangladesh clothes manufacturer buys its cotton from america, not from local farmers
16:16:18  <deniz1a> actually you would buy from next door if everything else was the same
16:16:26  <Alberth> deniz1a: please don't try to map the real world model onto the game, it doesn't work
16:16:32  <deniz1a> because transportation adds to the cost
16:16:54  <deniz1a> what else are you supposed to model it after?
16:17:10  <Alberth> nothing, it's a system on its own
16:17:34  <deniz1a> and i'm saying that system could be improved by changing it like that
16:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm saying that statement is wrong.
16:18:30  <deniz1a> the people who live in bangladesh get their clothes from next door heh
16:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the people from bangladesh most likely cannot afford the clothes they produce
16:19:13  <deniz1a> yeah that's right, that's why it's produced there
16:19:53  <Alberth> every model you program into the game is wrong. It only differs where the "wrong parts" are
16:19:55  <deniz1a> if their wealth would be equal to that of the destination country, there wouldnt be any point in manufacturing it there
16:20:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the people from bangladesh get to buy "brazil: world champion 2014" shirts
16:20:29  <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: and how does "everybody has equal wealth" equal a "fixed economy"?
16:20:50  <deniz1a> when did i say everybody has equal wealth?
16:23:34  <deniz1a> so then answer this: why would the coal mine or the power station pay you more to transport coal far away than closer?
16:24:20  <Alberth> it takes you more effort and costs to transport it over a longer distance
16:24:42  <deniz1a> ok. but what does your increased effort bring to the industries?
16:25:11  <Alberth> coal from far away
16:25:29  <deniz1a> is the same as the one from the next door mine...
16:25:44  <Alberth> so?
16:26:02  <deniz1a> so why do they pay more to transport it more? they only want coal as fast as possible
16:26:48  <Alberth> how do you know that? industry doesn't give deadlines or times or so
16:27:27  <deniz1a> let's say you want to buy something. and there are two sellers of the same product. one of them is far away and the other is very close. you wouldn't buy from the far away seller and pay more transport costs
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16:28:29  <Alberth> why not?  you're assuming they want to minimize costs. nothing supports your claim, afaik
16:28:30  <deniz1a> you would buy from the closest seller, which would cost less for you and also be delivered quicker if everything else is the same
16:29:10  <deniz1a> every industry wants to minimize costs
16:29:21  <Alberth> deniz1a: congratulations, you have established that openttd economy is different than real economy
16:29:57  <deniz1a> not only different, it's not logical
16:30:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but your change would not make it more logical
16:30:37  <Alberth> in openttd, industry is happy to accept any cargo you bring to them, and they will pay you a good price
16:31:10  <deniz1a> it would make it more logical. industry would simply pay more for quicker delivery.
16:31:18  <Alberth> it's only non-logical if you assume money is scarce resource
16:31:19  <Eddi|zuHause> just a different kind of illogical
16:31:34  <deniz1a> ok
16:32:02  <deniz1a> so what do you say about 3d ? it would be better right?
16:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> there is absolutely no reason for a "real" industry to have coal delivered "as quick as possible". the only thing that the industry is "it must be here when i need it"
16:32:38  <Alberth> what's the benefit ?
16:32:56  <deniz1a> ok. and if there are two options: deliver it from a close source or from far away, they would choose the close one
16:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: so what do you think about a lamborghini? it would be better right?
16:33:16  <deniz1a> i think there's no point in arguing since you don't want to understand
16:33:31  <Alberth> I rather have a more detailed simulation than pretty pictures tbh, you can get pretty pictures from almost any tycoon-ish game
16:33:36  <deniz1a> i would buy one from a next door dealer than a far away one
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16:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause> what if the next door dealer is an asshole?
16:34:37  <deniz1a> does that affect the car?
16:34:50  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it affects the price you pay for it?
16:35:05  <deniz1a> if the product is the same i would buy the cheapest one
16:35:10  <Alberth> the car being the same everywhere, I value other properties more
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16:35:22  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he refuses to sell to people unless $religion?
16:35:27  <deniz1a> but you pay more if you buy from far away
16:35:42  <Alberth> sure, but it makes me more happy
16:35:55  <deniz1a> oh then you should buy from there
16:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> if the car costs 20 million $, do you care about 200$ or 500$ delivery fee?
16:36:08  <deniz1a> of course
16:36:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and if it costs 20 million $ in one place, but 19 million $ in the other place?
16:36:54  <deniz1a> then i would buy from the cheaper one
16:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and if your drug empire gives you so much money that you buy a new one every week, and crash it on some wall just for the fun of it?
16:37:54  <deniz1a> then i would stop buying 20 million dollar cars and fund openttd development instead
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16:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and what if the closer dealer takes 5 days to deliver, but the far away one 3 days?
16:38:39  <deniz1a> then of course, 3 day delivery is better.
16:38:52  <deniz1a> but if everything else is the same, you would prefer the closer one
16:39:00  <deniz1a> ok
16:39:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and how many thousands of dollars do you want to spend on a computer that is able to model all this in an openttd map with thousands of industries?
16:39:15  <deniz1a> so what do you think about the phrase "some such"?
16:39:23  <deniz1a> it's funny isn't it?
16:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with it?
16:39:46  <deniz1a> nothing. it's funny to say
16:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> (keep in mind that almost nobody here is a native speaker)
16:40:02  <deniz1a> me neither
16:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually say things i write outloud
16:40:52  <deniz1a> oh you should try it
16:41:02  <deniz1a> some such
16:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and even then, there is nobody that would hear it.
16:41:43  <deniz1a> so in that case do you really exist?
16:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> any word you say often enough sounds "funny" after some time
16:42:42  <deniz1a> ok when i implement these economy ideas you'll see it will be much better gameplay
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16:45:56  <deniz1a> you'll test my version, right?
16:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i love making statements about the empty set :)
16:47:31  <Alberth> :D
16:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the members of the empty set :p
16:48:30  <deniz1a> i will need people to support my patch.
16:48:51  <Alberth> make it good enough
16:48:54  <deniz1a> i'll say addi and alberth in irc agreed
16:48:59  <deniz1a> eddi
16:49:39  <Alberth> Make sure you post a link to the log
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16:49:52  <deniz1a> ok
16:50:08  <deniz1a> or i could say "as was discussed on irc"
16:50:15  <deniz1a> no need to be specific
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17:15:29  <Alberth> evenink
17:20:54  <andythenorth> Hi :)
17:20:58  <andythenorth> releasing is so meh
17:21:02  <andythenorth> where are the trumpets?
17:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause> tÀterÀtÀÀÀÀ
17:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TEGPelS3Ac
17:24:39  <andythenorth> eh not bad
17:24:50  <andythenorth> we should put that in every release post
17:24:52  <andythenorth> on autoplay
17:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> there are more where that came from :p
17:25:34  <andythenorth> they look increasingly dubious
17:25:41  <andythenorth> judging by ‘related videos'
17:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not really looked at that
17:26:21  <Eddi|zuHause> also, your "related" may differ from mine
17:26:27  <andythenorth> yeah
17:26:41  <andythenorth> yours _probably_ filters out the nazi-esque stuff for starters, no?
17:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure about that
17:27:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but most of these things predate the nazis
17:28:13  <andythenorth> I read the wikipedia entry for that march :)
17:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't know what you call nazi-esque
17:28:30  <andythenorth> “Waffen SS marching”
17:29:05  <andythenorth> and such
17:29:13  <andythenorth> with - my german isn’t great - pro Hitler comments
17:29:19  <andythenorth> but then never read the YT comments anyway
17:29:35  <andythenorth> anyway, nice trumpets
17:30:05  <deniz1a> some such
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17:45:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27129 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2015-01-30 17:45:13 UTC)
17:45:22  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23  <DorpsGek> malay - 18 changes by im54
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17:52:14  <andythenorth> herp, so how shall I refactor FIRS?  Pile in and start, or think carefully for a day first?
17:54:29  <deniz1a> ok i have another idea
17:54:51  <deniz1a> how about making depots as stations?
17:55:06  <andythenorth> because
?
17:55:26  <Alberth> I have seen that discussion before somewhere
17:55:27  <deniz1a> because trains just disappear into a one tile depot
17:55:47  <deniz1a> and a depot can have many trains at the same time
17:55:53  <deniz1a> yes i posted this in the forums
17:55:57  <Alberth> there are newgrf that have longer depots
17:56:16  <deniz1a> ok i'll look at it
17:56:17  <andythenorth> there should be more stuff like 1 tile depots
17:56:21  <Alberth> 3d openttd already done?
17:56:28  <andythenorth> and fewer realisms
17:56:49  <Alberth> 1 tile industries?
17:57:04  <Alberth> save a whole bunch of sprites
17:57:24  <Alberth> 1 tile cities
17:57:33  <Alberth> maybe a bit tricky for a bus
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17:59:42  <deniz1a> 3d openttd in planning stage
17:59:55  <andythenorth> nobody bit on the refactoring question :P
17:59:58  <andythenorth> nvm
18:00:01  * andythenorth knows the answer
18:00:15  <Alberth> knowing you, you'll just start :)
18:00:20  <deniz1a> but what is the question?
18:00:22  <andythenorth> I’ll start reading
18:00:29  <andythenorth> and I’ll try and understand all the cases
18:00:41  <deniz1a> so what's the difference with bigger depots newgrf?
18:00:44  <andythenorth> before going anywhere near coding myself into a dead end
18:00:50  <deniz1a> it's just a graphical change?
18:00:59  <andythenorth> I quite like refactoring, refactoring is very different to ‘just make it work'
18:01:16  <Alberth> yeah, refactoring can be quite fun
18:01:16  <deniz1a> it's like factoring but you do it again
18:01:33  <andythenorth> it’s more fun when you have a decent test suite :P
18:01:45  <Alberth> nah, you have users for that :p
18:01:46  <andythenorth> maybe I’ll put some asserts into FIRS at least
18:01:53  <deniz1a> so the bigger depot mod?
18:02:00  <andythenorth> small asserts are quite useful to catch common simple coder-erorr
18:02:04  <andythenorth> like typos :P
18:02:10  <Alberth> deniz1a: no idea, I am very happy with small depots
18:02:28  <deniz1a> anyone tried bigger depots mod?
18:02:32  <andythenorth> no idea, I would never see a reason to change depots :)
18:02:35  <andythenorth> try it?
18:02:40  <Alberth> I am sure someone has
18:02:40  <deniz1a> newgrf
18:03:01  <deniz1a> depots could be another form of station where trains get maintenance
18:03:12  <deniz1a> you would choose the length like normal stations
18:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> 1 tile cities <-- sounds more like civilization
18:06:00  <Alberth> :D     indeed, didn't think of that
18:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> herp, so how shall I refactor FIRS?  Pile in and start, or think carefully for a day first? <-- well, i'd let a basic plan manifest in my head before starting
18:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> during making it, the plan may change. but i always found it more productive to have that abstract target
18:08:19  <andythenorth> I normally get as far as making a list classes / subclasses, and other key data structures
18:08:27  <andythenorth> methods and templates I tend to make up as I go along
18:08:51  <andythenorth> identify the top level entities, the rest comes out in the wash
18:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> well, but that already takes the design decision away whether you want to go object oriented in the first place
18:11:48  <deniz1a> bigger depots dont seem to have any different functionality
18:11:53  <andythenorth> there’s refactoring and refactoring :)
18:12:08  <deniz1a> dont forget the refactoring
18:12:28  <Alberth> I usually start by making a clone and do random code shuffling to get an understanding of where the problems are. Then I start again, doing it properly
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18:14:16  <andythenorth> doesn’t anybody do it by assuming that everything written by someone else needs rm -r ?
18:14:35  <andythenorth> that seems to be quite a common method
18:14:52  <andythenorth> it tends to lead to a refactoring-in of old bugs and loss of features
18:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't mean it's very productive
18:15:17  <andythenorth> but apparently it makes for cleaner, more modern code
18:15:43  <andythenorth> how about refactoring by buzzword?
18:15:48  <andythenorth> shall I do it in node.js?
18:15:57  <Alberth> sounds spiffy, how does that work?
18:16:27  <andythenorth> don’t know yet
18:16:33  <andythenorth> I’m sure it solves all problems though
18:16:39  <andythenorth> it’s the wave of the future
18:17:00  <andythenorth> refactoring-by-silver-bullet
18:17:16  <Alberth> ah, I wouldn't do it for less
18:17:52  <Alberth> what if the silver-bullet is made by someone else?
18:18:02  <andythenorth> depends if they’re cool this week
18:18:15  <andythenorth> or if they’re now all-of-our-problems-are-caused-by-x
18:18:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, at least with gold bars it's common practice to melt them in and make a new one
18:18:55  <Alberth> nobody would pay money for an old bar
18:19:05  <andythenorth> I want new clean gold
18:19:17  <Eddi|zuHause> (the point of that is to make sure it's pure gold)
18:20:10  <Alberth> right, glad I don't have to do that sort of thing
18:22:15  * andythenorth should play Busy Bee
18:22:35  <andythenorth> Busy Bee is the reason we now have FIRS 1.4.2, instead of a repo that hasn’t done anything interesting for 12 months
18:22:48  <andythenorth> progress begets progress
18:22:49  <andythenorth> etc
18:24:23  <Alberth> oh, what have I done?  :)
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18:39:31  <Wolf01> hi hi
18:41:26  <Alberth> hi hi
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19:08:01  <andythenorth> oic http://steamcommunity.com/games/227300/announcements/detail/127556162152347848
19:08:07  <andythenorth> there may be a short delay to newgrfs
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19:21:07  <Alberth> :)
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19:21:34  <__ln__> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2tbb0n/in_super_mario_brothers_on_the_nes_you_can/
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19:33:44  <frosch123> Sylf: truebrain changed something about the index page. he considered disabling them, but i am not sure what was the final result
19:33:53  <frosch123> Sylf: ask him when he's back from snowboarding
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20:06:20  <andythenorth> so eh, the NML constants “BLACK_HOLE | EXTRACTIVE | ORGANIC | PROCESSING”
20:06:42  <andythenorth> nvm
20:06:48  * andythenorth thinking out loud sorry
20:07:26  <andythenorth> wondering whether to reuse same terms in my compile (and extend new ones), or invent new terms
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20:09:59  <andythenorth> Town, Mine, Farm, Processor, Harbour are probably bad choices
20:10:28  <Wolf01> they totally did it: http://img-9gag-ftw.9cache.com/photo/aGwKprG_460s.jpg
20:11:16  <andythenorth> is that new Need For Speed?
20:11:29  <Wolf01> maybe, I don't want to know
20:11:31  <andythenorth> I am playing Need For Speed ipad, it’s serious gold-farming
20:12:06  <andythenorth> I don’t *have* to buy any DLC to complete anything so far, but there are a couple of difficulty cliffs which take hours of gold-farming to get a good enough car to pass
20:12:24  <andythenorth> then because I have an *awesome* car, then next 6 races just fall over easily
20:12:27  <andythenorth> then another cliff
20:12:35  <andythenorth> or I could just pay for the better car :P
20:12:40  <andythenorth> who is being farmed here?
20:13:20  <Wolf01> the patience
20:15:21  <Wolf01> btw, the avenger helicarrier is pointless... no Agent Coulson minifig :|
20:16:10  <andythenorth> :P
20:17:01  <andythenorth> ok, so FIRS town industries all have similar characteristics, they are coded as ottd black holes, but aren’t strictly black holes because they can optionally produce (pax, mail and such).
20:17:04  <andythenorth> name for that?
20:17:20  <andythenorth> Black Hole is almost certainly misleading
20:23:38  <Wolf01> uhm, "you could put unlimited stuff inside it but occasionally something else come out"
20:23:52  <Wolf01> a sink?
20:24:03  <Wolf01> a stomach?
20:24:22  <andythenorth> apparently black holes might be leaky
20:24:25  <andythenorth> Leaky Hole
20:24:31  <andythenorth> is an unpleasant notion on any front
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20:36:39  <andythenorth>  bizarre.  Most of the interface (props) I need mimicks existing industry newgrf props, but with a different implementation.
20:36:47  <andythenorth> dunno if that’s good, bad, or meh
20:37:10  <andythenorth> except that it means names in andythenorth’s codes look similar to names in nml or newgrf spec, but behave differently
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20:40:11  <Wolf01> call it "MOUTH" Modular Output Unit for Transportation H[ole|angar|arbor|eap|...]
20:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "black hole" is to define industry opening/closing/growing behaviour
20:46:00  <andythenorth> I know :)
20:46:33  <andythenorth> the TTD industry model translates poorly to FIRS behaviour
20:46:59  <andythenorth> other names might be better
20:47:26  <frosch123> it's actually more important for funding/prospecting, and for silicon valley :)
20:48:03  <andythenorth> I have types which (not coincidentally) do use those type flags
20:48:22  <andythenorth> but probably I should invent new terms where additional behaviour is implied
20:48:57  <andythenorth> shop? fake house? town?
20:49:17  <andythenorth> what are the commonalities between: grocery store, hardware store, hotel, petrol station, builders yard?
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20:50:35  <Wolf01> people
20:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if the mapping between your categories and the nml flags is 1:1, then it's pointless to introduce it
20:51:50  <andythenorth> the mapping does control production and closure in FIRS
20:52:11  <andythenorth> but it’s not 1:1 with the nml flags (or what the code in industry_cmd.cpp is doing)
20:52:36  <andythenorth> it also is the primary determinant of location
20:52:47  <andythenorth> and of supplies behaviour
20:53:05  <andythenorth> so I’d be overloading the nml terms, I think
20:53:34  <andythenorth> probably is worth getting this right, or I spend the next 5 years saying “no, black hole in FIRS is not same as black hole in openttd'
20:54:00  <andythenorth> and confusing all people
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21:13:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: so FIRS ports etc use black hole.  What will SV do with that?  o_O
21:14:20  <andythenorth> not sure *why* they’re black hole, probably reasons
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21:16:14  <dreck> hi
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21:22:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: start silicon valley and check the script debug window
21:23:06  <frosch123> it will tell you what cargos sv considers primary/secondary
21:24:33  <andythenorth> it’s got them right
21:24:48  <frosch123> yay :)
21:24:59  <andythenorth> ok so harbour industries don’t touch it either way
21:25:11  <andythenorth> can stay black hole then
21:25:15  <andythenorth> even though they produce
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21:32:01  <__ln__> do we know for sure that e.g. number 1 isn't irrational? especially if we imagine a number system where π is an integer?
21:32:08  *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:33:35  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: do we know for sure that 1 is a number, if we consider a system where X is a number?
21:33:48  <__ln__> we don't
21:34:29  <frosch123> __ln__: is is perferctly fine to define a vector space with rational scalars, and base vectors 1, i, pi, e, sqrt(2)
21:35:30  <frosch123> you can swap the base vector symbols, it does not change anything
21:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> also, pi is stupid, use tau
21:36:21  <frosch123> :)
21:36:42  <frosch123> does SI recommend tau meanwhile?
21:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
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21:38:13  <__ln__> the nobel prize for mathematics can be sent to my home address
21:38:33  <frosch123> you'll get all of them
21:39:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (again about the members of the empty set?)
21:39:24  <__ln__> i don't need the peace prize, i already have it, and i'm also not a war criminal
21:40:12  <frosch123> no, i mean that all awardees of the nobel prize for maths will transfer their prize to you
21:40:45  <__ln__> there's no nobel prize for maths, silly
21:41:13  <frosch123> how can you say that, if you own all of them?
21:41:14  <__ln__> which is the only plausible reason why i haven't been awarded it
21:42:21  <Wolf01> were you the one which demonstrate all odd numbers are prime?
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21:42:58  <frosch123> physicians proofed that
21:43:12  <frosch123> *v
21:44:22  <Wolf01> it was eddi
21:45:01  <Wolf01> but yes, physicists
21:46:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "physician" is a doctor
21:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't prove it, i only repeated the proof
21:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a bunch of them
21:47:48  <frosch123> well, let's ask the important questions... is 1 prime? :p
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21:49:04  <Eddi|zuHause> well. the short answer is: in almost all cases where "is X prime" matters, 1 is a number that shouldn't be included
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22:09:56  * andythenorth puzzles about town industries
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22:11:56  <andythenorth> maybe they’re end points
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22:17:33  <Alberth> processing industry would be much more fun, the mess of both bringing input cargoes and getting output cargoes out :)
22:17:51  <andythenorth> :P
22:18:12  <andythenorth> maybe v2.1
22:18:19  <andythenorth> it was considered
22:18:29  <Alberth> 'city economy' :)
22:18:32  <andythenorth> hotel produces pax
22:18:40  <andythenorth> originally shops etc would produce waste
22:18:43  <andythenorth> and mail or such
22:18:53  <andythenorth> got binned
22:19:18  <Alberth> accepting goods and food is very useful
22:19:41  <Alberth> it makes acceptance of them for small towns a lot easier
22:19:58  <Alberth> eg in tropical
22:20:08  <andythenorth> I’m not planning to change them, just what to call their subclass in python :)
22:20:51  <Alberth> euhm, ok :)   I didn't read most of the discussion, I just jumped in
22:20:58  <andythenorth> he
22:22:36  <andythenorth> maybe Town, but strictly that’s an arbitraty location rule, specified per industry
22:22:47  <andythenorth> not unique to subclass or enforced by it
22:26:11  <Alberth> not sure I understand that, but it sounds good :)
22:26:12  <Alberth> gn
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22:35:02  <FUZxxl> I have a feature request.
22:36:17  <FUZxxl> I want to have a priority signal. A signal that tells the path-finder to prefer this route if possible. The priority signal should not have aspects, it's just a hint to the path finder.
22:36:56  <FUZxxl> or the opposite, a subordination signal that imposes a penalty upon the route if the path-finder chooses to go through it
22:37:12  <FUZxxl> like if you go through a path signal the wrong way but without a path-signal
22:37:31  <FUZxxl> I want this so I can tell the path finder to give priority to certain platforms on a station.
22:38:27  <Wolf01> use presignals
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22:40:53  <dreck> fuzxxl...openttd is missing that but ttdxp has exactly such feature for a long time
22:40:59  <dreck> just a note-like nitpick ^
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22:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you can use level crossings instead of path signals to add penalties
22:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and rails with speed limit might also work
22:48:54  <FUZxxl> speed limits?
22:49:03  <FUZxxl> Wolf01: how do pre-signals help here?
22:49:12  <frosch123> FUZxxl: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Priority <- using signals
22:49:21  <frosch123> but yeah, tracks with speed limits work as well
22:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that is a different kind of "priority"
22:49:44  <frosch123> the easiest method to apply a penalty is to put a reverse path signal
22:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: speed limits, like nutracks
22:50:31  <FUZxxl> ah
22:50:55  <FUZxxl> frosch123: yeah, but a path signal creates a safe stop and fucks up my signal trees
22:51:08  <frosch123> that's why you reverse it
22:51:34  <FUZxxl> yeah, but I need this most for terminus stations where trains go both ways
22:51:41  <FUZxxl> and I don't have space to place enough of them.
22:52:02  <frosch123> you can also use different platform lengths
22:52:12  <frosch123> the pathfinder will prefer platforms matching the train length
22:52:23  <frosch123> and avoid shorter ones, and dramatically avoid too short ones
22:52:29  <andythenorth> oh it does do that :)
22:52:34  <andythenorth> I thought I’d seen that behaviour
22:52:38  <frosch123> *avoid longer ones
22:52:46  <andythenorth> but wasn’t sure if correlation and causation were matched
22:53:42  <FUZxxl> hm...
22:53:52  <FUZxxl> making the platforms longer might do the trick...
22:54:09  <FUZxxl> still, the feature request stands.
22:56:59  <andythenorth> also bye
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22:57:26  <FUZxxl> see you
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22:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a "longer per tile" penalty which defaults to 0, you can use that to further add penalties
22:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause> or to make them work for trains which are shorter anyway
23:01:25  <FUZxxl> ok
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23:08:50  <Samu> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Priority
23:08:51  <Samu> wow
23:08:58  <Samu> i have a headache
23:10:13  <Samu> one that I will understand signals and priorities
23:10:18  <Samu> one day*
23:10:37  * dreck prefers to understand programmable signals but will leave that to our own merits
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23:11:21  <Wolf01> I can't understand anything of ottdcoop, I'm playing with pbs and plain junctions, a bridge or a tunnel occasionally
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23:12:11  <Samu> to this day I still don't understand how combo signals work
23:12:27  <Samu> combo/entry/exit
23:12:50  <Samu> they're key to something I plan to do
23:13:24  <dreck> samu well I use these when I'm not using restrict signals as to let multiply trains queue to a specific platform without sitting on the main/whatever line itself
23:14:48  *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-219-51.tal.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:15:24  <Samu> and then there's some lingo I can't follow
23:15:26  <Samu> pre-signal
23:15:33  <Samu> what's a pre-signal
23:15:46  <Samu> path signal?
23:15:55  <Wolf01> block signal
23:16:28  <Samu> the short one?
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23:16:55  <Wolf01> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6YTxSDjxvk
23:17:14  <Wolf01> no, the other three, the short one is just a block signal
23:18:36  <Samu> ah, the video shows a yellow-strip signal
23:18:40  <Samu> then white strip
23:18:45  <Wolf01> that's a pre-signal
23:18:48  <Samu> is it the combination of both?
23:18:57  <Samu> a set that makes you call pre-signal
23:20:20  <Samu> meh, I'm so confused
23:20:33  <Samu> brb
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23:21:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause> pre-signal is another name for the entry signal
23:25:07  <Samu> will it only work one-way?
23:26:00  <Samu> on that video, yellow strip first, then 3 white-strip signals are one-way, what about on the way back, how would I do it?
23:26:38  <Samu> i can't make use of the same track tiles?
23:28:44  <Samu> let me draw, brb
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23:39:12  <Endymion> Hi, silly question; is there anywhere that explains the difference between the "Original" Land Generator and TerraGenesis?
23:41:53  <Samu> original is better for arctic
23:42:03  <Samu> terragenesis is better for the others
23:42:08  <Samu> lele
23:42:13  <Samu> sorry, I don't know
23:43:54  <dreck> hmm would you consider tobacco a tropical-only or tropical/temperate climate thing?
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23:44:51  <ST2> tobacco-temperate / weed-tropical / meth-arctic  (just a suggestion :D
23:45:12  <dreck> temperate? hmm thanks for the second opinion :)
23:46:10  <ST2> by nature requires temperate climates and lots of water - but talking by heart ^^
23:46:21  <Samu> https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!706&authkey=!ACKHadWqN3-WO44&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng
23:46:24  <Samu> does not work
23:47:01  <dreck> st2 that does make sense..cheers
23:47:11  <ST2> yw :)
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23:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Endymion: the original land generator has a limited set of hills that it can place at random places on the map, where the terragenesis generator uses random noise to generate hills
23:48:11  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
23:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Endymion: this may make original maps look more rectangle-shaped and terragenesis maps more roundish
23:49:09  <Samu> so, my signals fail
23:49:15  <Samu> I followed a video tutorial
23:49:18  <Samu> it fails on me
23:49:33  <Samu> or it doesn't work both ways
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23:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that picture doesn't load.
23:51:15  <Samu> it's syncing?
23:51:19  <Samu> should be ready
23:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no, is just an empty page
23:51:46  <Endymion> Samu. Eddi: Cool.  I've been playing with it, and that really answers the questions I've had.
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23:52:31  <Samu> try direect image link: https://pc4i4w.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pKEGLurMdGZ1p7yV9JxCPrrFLw1NpaxI1Y6wdDmiysdZzK1_9Uw8Ziq3Ow7xCQQwtpgOl7yn3eruVUebk9C4uPewfePAyWxCGCG_VmN5dzPkZY0ithd6XDRX_FGpeCszXUcnFuO-x1m0W_IALnDtf-g/twitch.tv_xarickpreto%20Transport%2C%201999-10-27.png?psid=1
23:53:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that works
23:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, those signals are the wrong way around.
23:54:52  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the signal on the station is useless, remove it.
23:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> also, just use path signals.
23:55:23  <Samu> i tryed this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6YTxSDjxvk
23:55:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i won't watch that
23:55:40  <Samu> to replicate it, but for going both ways
23:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> presignals never work both ways
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