Log for #openttd on 15th February 2015:
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00:00:11  <chillcore> some things have changed for the worse
00:00:38  <chillcore> like when you have no internet 65% of your stuff stops working
00:01:01  <romazoon> oh well, but how was it without internet ?
00:01:05  <chillcore> never saw that one glx
00:01:08  <glx> even worse when internet shuts down in the middle of a game
00:01:09  <romazoon> :P
00:01:24  <chillcore> romazoon .... first two weeks great
00:01:28  <chillcore> no drama
00:01:33  <chillcore> peace and quiet
00:01:47  <chillcore> sleeping at decent hours
00:01:56  <chillcore> I have no cable tv so
00:02:22  <chillcore> then it becomes a bit annoying because you want ot play game that do not work
00:02:52  <glx> worse when it's not a multiplayer game
00:02:57  <chillcore> but I still have my consoles
00:03:02  <chillcore> indeed glx
00:03:15  <glx> that's just silly
00:03:23  <chillcore> I cleaned out my ipad and steam folder
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00:03:38  <chillcore> no work ... delete delete delete
00:03:47  <glx> steam works offline
00:04:04  <chillcore> to the point I almost removed it all and am now replacing my games with console versions
00:04:08  <chillcore> ye it does
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00:04:44  <chillcore> I tried to play drift ... starts ... plays ... no saving shiiiiiiiiiiiiit
00:05:04  <glx> ha yes cloud saving
00:05:11  <chillcore> but some games do work yes
00:05:33  <chillcore> there is not one game that uses cloud no more ... you can disable it in configs
00:05:38  <chillcore> even dota
00:06:05  <chillcore> ^^^ ofcourse does not work ... everything starts and after 10 secs ingame it stops
00:06:48  <chillcore> I think this is a sad evolution
00:06:52  <glx> well you still have openttd then ;)
00:06:58  <chillcore> minecraft worked
00:07:02  <chillcore> and openttd
00:07:05  <romazoon> and it is a sad evolution chill
00:07:23  <romazoon> especially that the reasons behind it at not really legitimate
00:07:37  <glx> it's against piracy
00:07:48  <romazoon> well that s what you think
00:07:50  <chillcore> true ... jsut stop buying them games ;)
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00:07:59  <romazoon> or that s what they want you to believe
00:08:05  <glx> but only legitimate users are affected
00:08:17  <chillcore> it takes them a week longer that is all
00:08:21  <chillcore> like you say
00:08:27  <romazoon> but the truth is they gather data on people, and make some more money on players ass
00:09:05  <chillcore> ye even minecraft launchers have facebook and twitter and reddit icons in them
00:09:09  <romazoon> they use the data to see if their game is still used and if an add on is a wise idea in term of business
00:09:18  <chillcore> fuu google analytics even
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00:09:51  <romazoon> personal data = goldmine
00:10:11  <chillcore> ye
00:10:24  <chillcore> just fight the power
00:10:41  <romazoon> you heard the price for minecraft ? just insane
00:10:57  <romazoon> 3 billions....
00:10:59  <chillcore> you mean what Notch received ...
00:11:01  <chillcore> 2.5
00:11:05  <romazoon> even in ottd i don t reach that
00:11:15  <romazoon> :P
00:11:36  <chillcore> I dunno romazoon ... OpenTTD is not commercial
00:11:46  <chillcore> but there are a ton of players
00:12:28  <romazoon> i mean in game, i don t manage to make 2.5 billion (just to say it s insane)
00:12:48  <chillcore> you do not play long enough haha
00:12:57  <chillcore> you continue after 2050?
00:13:01  <romazoon> and i m lying...of course i reached that
00:13:26  <chillcore> I never pay attention to my money
00:13:40  <chillcore> for me it is about the network and such
00:13:51  <chillcore> signals and decoration
00:13:58  <romazoon> but anyway, it s not a valid comparison i know....i was just pretending it s insane, and they have more interest than just the game
00:14:22  <chillcore> prob is that once you know the mechanics is is easy
00:14:53  <chillcore> untill now MS handles it pretty well
00:15:04  <chillcore> they left eula alone
00:15:11  <chillcore> thank god
00:15:31  <chillcore> one thing is sad ... notch did not give us the code as promissed
00:15:39  <chillcore> can't bame him
00:15:50  <chillcore> still sad-ish
00:16:13  <romazoon> i know, nevver cared of money in game too, i love to make huge and fully interconnected$ networks were trains can never get lost and manage to handle the demand created by cargodist
00:16:36  <chillcore> huhu
00:17:14  <chillcore> there are so many ways to play. that  is one of the great things
00:17:47  <romazoon> it is indeed... and so addictive it seems !
00:18:08  <chillcore> that is because we coded coke in it :P
00:18:26  <chillcore> ssssssst
00:18:56  <chillcore> it is even used in unis ... economics clases. at least so I heard
00:19:07  <romazoon> the war free game is not a drug free game :P interesting
00:19:26  <chillcore> free games or 'free' games?
00:19:34  <chillcore> apple changed their labels
00:19:40  <chillcore> no more free but get
00:20:23  <romazoon> free as in excluded (drug free zone)
00:20:23  <chillcore> now we need a law that stops the no refunds abuse
00:20:58  <chillcore> and kickstarter and early access abuse
00:21:15  <romazoon> what s that ?
00:21:17  <chillcore> lot's of genuine projects but also lot's taht are not
00:21:28  <chillcore> early acces you kow right?
00:21:36  <romazoon> oh more clear now with the last sentence
00:21:39  <chillcore> you pay for an alpha and play forever
00:21:52  <chillcore> eg minecraft started at  5 euros and KSP too
00:21:56  <chillcore> you invest
00:22:11  <chillcore> and hope to get a complete game some day
00:22:33  <romazoon> invest ? or you pay to play ? (invest mean getting some $ back at some point)
00:22:39  <chillcore> same with kickstarter, kinda
00:22:50  <chillcore> nono yu pay a low price and the game is yours
00:23:00  <romazoon> but i think  i see your point, people buys games early and they don t get finished entirely
00:23:13  <romazoon> so it s an abuse
00:23:19  <chillcore> yep and they do not get their money back
00:23:23  <chillcore> indeed
00:23:44  <chillcore> with kixkstarter the same
00:23:46  <chillcore> kinda
00:24:08  <chillcore> sometimes projects do fail because whatever
00:24:13  <chillcore> it happens
00:24:28  <romazoon> i see this happening with train fever, more or less (they don t even pretended to be an beta though....while it was an alpha really, and they made a release nonetheless and try to fix it still today (6 month after going out, there is a fix every two weeks)
00:24:28  <chillcore> but some are ... grrrrrrrr
00:24:39  <Wolf01> 'night
00:24:43  <chillcore> night
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00:25:31  <chillcore> ye romazoon I do not know about this project ...
00:25:38  <chillcore> be glad they are fixing it
00:25:41  <romazoon> oh it s a game, it s out since 6 month
00:25:48  <chillcore> ye ...
00:25:49  <romazoon> the successor of ttd suposely
00:26:04  <chillcore> OpenTTD has no competition
00:26:06  <romazoon> well not successor, but inspired by
00:26:11  <chillcore> true
00:26:46  <romazoon> it s all in 3d, with some real scale used (wich is insanely not fun to play)
00:26:57  <chillcore> it's like rollercaoster tycoon .... many tried many more failed
00:27:20  <chillcore> maybe Alberth his project some day ... FreeRCT
00:28:19  <chillcore> it's what happened to rollercaoster 3 ... they made it 3D and it was ruined
00:28:24  <LordAro> !
00:28:25  <chillcore> for me anyway
00:28:32  <romazoon> but they nailed success really, the engine could make for an epic "transport" game...the gameplay is just not much "addictive" right now
00:28:48  <chillcore> hello LorAro
00:28:53  <LordAro> hey chillcore
00:30:49  <romazoon> rollercoaster is a game i never tried, it s funny how i missed it given the time i spent on TTD as a kid, maybe one day i ll give it a shot (so i should try the second if i got you right )
00:31:40  <chillcore> you should pick it up
00:32:05  <chillcore> first and second with all the expansions
00:32:36  <chillcore> the third is not that bad it is just that it is 3D and the atmosphere changed completely
00:32:55  <chillcore> I missed an expansion and bought it again
00:33:21  <romazoon> ok, thanks
00:33:28  <chillcore> there is this ultimate pack ... 8 games ... I payed 14.95 euros
00:33:31  <chillcore> brand new
00:33:38  <chillcore> crazy
00:34:23  <chillcore> there are many great games ... older ones
00:34:39  <chillcore> ever played Myst? and Oddworld?
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00:37:46  <chillcore> oh great they let the reddit trolls out of their cages again :P
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00:42:39  <romazoon> i did played Myst, i didn t understood anything (and remember of lags)...
00:43:57  <chillcore> it is not the easiest of puzzles true
00:45:18  <chillcore> most of the times solutions can be found for he who searches ... elsewhere
00:46:08  <romazoon> hahaha good old days with game that made no sense, and people where not asking for a refund !
00:46:55  <chillcore> depends which good old days
00:47:16  <chillcore> once opened you could hardly get a refund but yu were allowd to sell on
00:47:17  <romazoon> but well i was a good client, i spent hours trying to figure out "kings quest", a click and point adventure with commands to enter
00:47:37  <chillcore> never played that one
00:47:50  <romazoon> and at the time i was not even speaking english ! huahuahua (i had an english version, and still not complaining)
00:49:31  <chillcore> Many of the games here were spoken in our own laguage
00:49:49  <chillcore> not all ofcourse
00:50:21  <chillcore> and they had movie clips with real actors too
00:50:26  <romazoon> well i didn t had that chance ! except TTD :)
00:51:54  <romazoon> of course i don t speak of console games, they were translated in french usually
00:52:24  <romazoon> but PC games, i remember until mid 90's it wasn t common that i could get my hands on french version
00:52:40  <chillcore> I am still looking for TTO for PSX ... nowhere to find and I am not fond of online shoping
00:53:11  <romazoon> simcity, railroads tycoons, civilization I, all those i played in english...before speaking it "fluently"
00:53:47  <romazoon> TTO for PSX, is that the 3d version, isn't it ?
00:53:56  <chillcore> your english is not bad ... must have bbeen all them games :P
00:54:11  <chillcore> yes I think so
00:54:26  <chillcore> could have been TTD that was 3D ... it has been a long time
00:55:12  <chillcore> hmm I started lagging
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00:55:24  <chillcore> this things sais so
00:55:26  <romazoon> but on psx, i only heard of one version...and it was the 3d version i believe. but i might be wrong. and i seems to talk to someone who knows much more than me on TtD history
00:56:31  <chillcore> anyhoo 2AM time for a nappie
00:56:56  <chillcore> was nice talking to you romazoon, see you around.
00:57:10  <romazoon> hehe
00:57:11  <romazoon> sure
00:57:18  <romazoon> it was nice, bye and good night
00:57:20  <chillcore> goodnight
00:57:44  <chillcore> there was aversion yes but I do not remember iwhich of the two it was
00:57:53  <chillcore> anyhoo next time ;)
00:57:55  <chillcore> bb
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05:37:58  <Diablo-D3> hrm.
05:38:04  <Diablo-D3> that one popular citybuilder mod
05:38:36  <Diablo-D3> it should require coal for the power plant at some point
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08:04:36  <andythenorth> o/
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08:27:06  <supermop_> yo andy
08:28:51  <roidal> o/
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08:40:43  <Alberth> out secret plot to take over the steel factory production is out!
08:41:57  <andythenorth> ?
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08:43:56  <Supercheese> our*
08:45:33  <Alberth>
08:45:38  <V453000> heyooo
08:46:03  <andythenorth> a bug :)
08:46:08  <andythenorth> or a badly named industry?
08:46:11  <Alberth> yeah, I make lots of stupid little typos these days :(  Supercheese
08:46:24  <Alberth> not by the looks of it
08:46:48  <Supercheese> Maybe the ore is both ferriferous and carboniferous
08:47:20  <andythenorth> I can barely type anymore
08:47:33  <andythenorth> must be some kind of global decline :P
08:47:44  <Alberth> lol
08:49:33  <supermop_> so i've been making these fake dieter trams as placeholders for real melbourne trams
08:50:17  <supermop_> but now im tempted to  add extra trams that shouldn't be in the melbourne tram set just so i get to draw more variations on these fake trams
08:51:47  <V453000> as soon as realism limits you in any way, it is bad :)
08:52:05  <Alberth> +1  :D
08:52:09  <supermop_> i like how that guy blurred out his company name as if sensitive information
08:52:22  <Alberth> yeah  :p
08:52:36  <Alberth> maybe his player name
08:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, limiting yourself is the entire point of a game
08:53:34  <supermop_> the extra trams exist in real life, they are just identical to another class except for manufacturer of the brakes
08:54:15  <supermop_> but adding them lets be turn another coffee grinder into a tram!
08:55:31  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: sure, but realism is not by definition a good limit
08:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's still a difference between "not always" and "never"
08:58:29  <andythenorth> eh
08:58:35  * andythenorth offers platitudes
08:58:38  <V453000> OMFG philosophical questions
08:58:42  <andythenorth> choosing to limit by realism is good
08:58:58  <andythenorth> arbitrarily only limiting by realism is not good
08:59:05  <V453000> if supermop is having one tram in his set due to realism, it might be nicer to have 10 trams for variety :P
08:59:33  <V453000> making things roughly believable to create the atmosphere is nice, copying it 1:1 is not
09:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, i have not understood supermop_'s approach enough to judge that
09:07:51  <V453000> dyin
09:07:53  <V453000> g
09:09:20  <Supercheese> Hurray for easy-to-implement feature requests
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09:11:09  <supermop_> well ill model and render for now
09:11:44  <roidal> from when is 'days_in_transit' of a CargoPacket counted on?
09:12:09  <roidal> at the moment of creation, or is it the time being loaded into a vehicle?
09:12:22  <Supercheese> pretty sure it's on loaded
09:13:11  <roidal> so there is no penalty in payment for long waiting cargo at stations?
09:13:42  <Supercheese> I do believe that is the case
09:13:47  <roidal> ok, thx
09:14:03  <Supercheese> other than the station rating being too low and the cargo disappearing
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09:15:54  <roidal> shure
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09:28:09  <roidal>
09:28:11  <roidal> hm
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10:00:11  <andythenorth> hmm
10:00:19  <andythenorth> reduce() is gone in python 3 maybe
10:04:06  <Alberth> what does it do?
10:04:52  <Alberth> some functional stuff got moved to packages iirc
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10:06:02  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth:
10:06:07  <andythenorth> yeah
10:06:14  <andythenorth> wondering if I should use that, or try and write a for loop
10:06:26  <andythenorth>         years = sorted(reduce(set.union, [(variant.intro_date, variant.end_date) for variant in self.model_variants], set()))
10:06:29  <andythenorth> dunno what that does
10:06:56  <Alberth>
10:06:56  <Alberth> "Removed reduce(). Use functools.reduce() if you really need it; however, 99 percent of the time an explicit for loop is more readable."
10:07:13  <Xaroth|Work> it calls set.union on the generated list
10:08:01  <Alberth> sorted(set([...]))
10:08:50  * andythenorth tests
10:09:45  <Alberth> depending on what you do with years, it might need an extra list(  sorted(...) )
10:12:48  * andythenorth experiments
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10:14:07  <Wolf01> o/
10:27:23  <Alberth> moin
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12:17:16  <andythenorth> oops
12:17:21  * andythenorth is in habit of ctrl-d for python
12:17:27  <andythenorth> but that also kills my shell
12:17:31  <andythenorth> :P
12:17:38  <andythenorth> don’t press it at wrong time
12:20:58  <andythenorth> hmm
12:21:16  <Alberth> don't use python interactively :)
12:21:27  <andythenorth> I try not to :)
12:21:32  <andythenorth> except to learn things
12:21:43  <andythenorth> unrelated; I have these clunky args for make, like ‘NO_MP=False’ and ‘COMPILE_FASTER=True’
12:21:53  <andythenorth> should they be —options of some kind?
12:22:02  <andythenorth> or does that likely conflict with make options?
12:22:13  <andythenorth> they look stupid when I type them
12:23:24  <Alberth> -D X=Y   iirc, but that doesn;t help a lot
12:23:30  <Alberth> s/;/'/
12:24:25  <Alberth> you can set them with a default value in the makefile
12:24:28  <andythenorth> yes
12:24:36  <andythenorth> I think they are already, maybe
12:24:37  <andythenorth> maybe I should just make them look less stupid
12:24:38  <Alberth> so you only need to type them when they are changed
12:24:47  <andythenorth> shorter names
12:24:51  <andythenorth> no double negative :P
12:25:18  <Alberth> hide them in a script :)
12:25:27  <andythenorth> make faster
12:25:40  <andythenorth> make only_a_bit_faster
12:25:47  <Alberth> that would be feasible too
12:26:02  <andythenorth> make without_mp_so_python_doesn’t_crash_on_error
12:26:27  <Alberth> yeah, but you have to type the target every time
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12:26:36  <andythenorth> and no autocomplete
12:26:55  <Alberth> ./make_faster     shell script ?
12:27:43  <Alberth> I often have a ./mk  script with all defaults
12:28:46  <andythenorth> shell script with - options? o_O
12:29:14  * andythenorth ponders
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12:29:31  <andythenorth> probably overengineered for the case :)
12:30:40  <Alberth> just make a few more scripts, with 4 scripts you have every option you ever dreamed about :p
12:31:48  <Alberth> not not often used cases are probably better handled as Makefile targets
12:31:56  <Alberth> s/^not/but/
12:32:36  <andythenorth> thanks
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12:34:55  <Alberth> keep your build logic at one place, eg in the Makefile
12:35:57  <andythenorth> ok after 2 hours of hunting an unrelated bug, I am looking at this reduce() thing again
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12:39:13  <chillcore> hello al
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12:41:12  <Alberth> hi hi
12:41:22  <andythenorth> hmm
12:41:31  <chillcore> going to polish some more ... is there still some other known in MHL prob besides terrain presets not looking good?
12:41:38  <chillcore> hello Alberth
12:42:21  <Alberth> /me gives wax and a new cloth to chillcore
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12:42:34  <Eddi|zuHause> do you also czech?
12:42:45  <Romazoon> hi
12:42:50  <chillcore> I will go over all commits int a little bit
12:42:54  * andythenorth wishes he could hold datastructures in his head
12:43:13  <Eddi|zuHause> trees drive you crazy :p
12:43:38  * chillcore accepts wax and new cloth from Alberth but would kindly would request second cloth
12:43:56  <chillcore> shining with dirty cloth does not work very well ;)
12:44:22  <Alberth> /me gives a shelf full of new cloth
12:44:38  <chillcore> damned typing ... so much better in forums
12:45:14  * chillcore goes WOOT shelf and all ...
12:46:11  <chillcore> trees eddi ... what do you men exactly? too many or ...
12:46:50  <chillcore> sometimes they generate slow I do not know why
12:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: navigating and following algorithms that go through large trees
12:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> tree (data structure)
12:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not tree (plant)
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12:47:13  <chillcore> ah yes ... feel free to ...
12:47:26  <chillcore> in my head I still do BASIC :P
12:47:39  <chillcore> kinda
12:48:08  <Alberth> no recursive data structures in basic?
12:48:35  <chillcore> hmm I alwayds avoided the topics about pointers and such
12:48:40  <chillcore> they confuse me
12:49:25  <chillcore> like how you do guis ... I would love to be able to do that but ...
12:49:31  <chillcore> getting there though
12:49:34  <Alberth> it's just like a piece of paper with an address to go to, on it
12:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> tree algorthisms are often laid out so they describe the process that happens on each node. and then dive either into the parent or children and come back with magic values
12:50:20  <chillcore> I know ... alberth ... I really should sit down one day and take a good practise at it
12:50:31  <Eddi|zuHause> pointers for trees/lists are not that bad. it gets crazy when you do pointer arithmetics
12:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but BASIC probably couldn't do that
12:51:12  <Alberth> yeah, like recursion, you don't think in terms of overall structure, you just handle one single node, without caring where things point to
12:51:30  <chillcore> I see Eddi ... if you are refering to querying the values by query box ... I put that into seperate functions for the hotkeys later
12:51:49  <chillcore> alhtough I could simulate a button click maybe
12:52:06  <chillcore> which I will have to for scriptts/AIs
12:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: i don't know what you're talking about
12:52:17  <chillcore> not there yet
12:52:33  <chillcore> keep it like that eddi :P
12:52:43  <chillcore> I mean np ofcourse
12:54:08  <chillcore> Alberth ye that is the thing ... not thinking enough in modern languages yet
12:54:53  <chillcore> I started reading another book but I am at chapter 8 only ... this time skipping nothing
12:55:07  <chillcore> then MHL happened
12:55:24  <chillcore> during my off time I mean
12:55:43  <chillcore> s off/no internet
12:55:59  <Alberth> language isn't that important, it's a mental step that you can safely ignore everything around the node
12:56:18  <Alberth> or around the function, in case of recursion
12:56:38  <chillcore> ok ...
12:56:57  <Alberth> you can make a recursive function?
12:57:15  <chillcore> for loop and such?
12:57:25  <chillcore> if I have to yes
12:57:25  <Alberth> no, a function calling itself
12:57:51  <chillcore> never tried that untill now .. but saying it like that ye I know about it
12:58:55  <Alberth> knowing and writing are very different things :)
12:59:00  <chillcore> indeed
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12:59:45  <Alberth> if you are wondering about making one,  sum(N)    of factorial(N)    are simple ones
13:00:40  <chillcore> ah ok
13:00:41  <Alberth> or difficult ones, as you are immediately confronted with recursion
13:00:51  <Alberth> no way around it :)
13:01:37  <chillcore> I have this tendency to jump in on the deep end and see if I float
13:02:16  <chillcore> what you talk about is on the other end I guess
13:02:36  <Romazoon> is there a relatively up to date known bug list for Iron horse 1.5.0? ( box car have zero capacity when refitted to mail in a game i just launched )
13:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Romazoon: bugs go to the devzone
13:03:35  <Alberth> Romazoon:
13:03:57  <Romazoon> thanks for the headers, i lll report it asap
13:04:22  <Alberth> chillcore: yep, with small examples, it's easier to get the core idea, less noise from unrelated parts
13:06:11  <chillcore> I'll have a play around once I get these pacthes working properly
13:06:51  <chillcore> not putting time pressure on myself but ... 1.5 is nearing and there is much to check
13:07:00  <chillcore> for forgotten parts
13:07:15  <chillcore> or parts that are not adjusted while bumping
13:07:39  <chillcore> not that ic111 did this on purpose but he rushes a bit most of the times
13:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: if you want "the deep end" of tree algorithms, you study compiler construction :p
13:08:50  <chillcore> hehe ye eddi ... maybe in a few years
13:09:04  <chillcore> then again is one more needed?
13:09:12  <Alberth> always :p
13:09:36  <chillcore> hihi
13:10:12  <Alberth> compilers come in many forms, not only things that are called 'compiler'
13:10:34  <chillcore> I see
13:10:55  <Alberth> ie your BASIC interpreter is also a compiler
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13:11:39  <Alberth> and mostly theoretical, openttd is also a compiler, it translates realtime user input to displayed pictures :p
13:11:53  <Alberth> ie basically any program that takes input and produces output :p
13:11:56  <chillcore> ah just like Java VM executes Java
13:12:03  <frosch123> <- somone has a broken compose key :p
13:12:45  <Alberth> chillcore: yes, and the Java byte code generator on top of it
13:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that took me a few tries :p
13:14:11  <Alberth> grfcodec also counts as compiler, and nml of course
13:15:05  <chillcore> frosh: tt-forums ... I thought it was a safe haven form the idiots over at steam ... I was wrong
13:15:14  <chillcore> from*
13:15:27  <frosch123> it's still the internet
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13:15:35  <chillcore> ye
13:15:35  <frosch123> though no idea why you would go to steam
13:15:44  <chillcore> play games
13:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing is ever safe
13:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> 10 years ago it was leetspeek
13:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> all the kiddies did it.
13:16:46  <frosch123> do you imply V is older than 10?
13:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> physically or mentally? :p
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13:17:24  <chillcore> N0 1375 n07 90 7h3r3 eddi
13:17:27  <chillcore> lol
13:17:46  <chillcore> stupid indeed
13:18:19  <chillcore> <i never even bothered trying to read it
13:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there were also dialects of it, the one which more relies on numbers, and the one which more relies on /\|
13:19:22  <chillcore> ye ... there was this progamming language too ... forgot name
13:19:59  <chillcore> basically you assigned other names to keywords
13:20:43  <Eddi|zuHause> exchanging keywords is the easiest part of compiler construction :p
13:20:52  <chillcore> hehe
13:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> for my professor's professor, they once translated a language to swabian :p
13:21:49  <chillcore> that must have been fun to work with
13:22:55  <chillcore> I once toyed with the idea of making the pc understand spoken language to program with but quickly abandoned
13:23:08  <chillcore> it was still the very early stages of voice recognition
13:23:51  <chillcore> that and well you need to pronounce it everytime in exactly in the same fashion
13:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> spoken language has two main problems: 1) it's extremely bloated, lots of redundancies, 2) it's often ambiguous
13:24:23  <chillcore> hmm going back and adding stuffs to sentences ... bad while chatting
13:24:34  <chillcore> yes
13:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> loads of language designers fell into the trap of "if making the language more natural, programming gets easier"
13:25:29  <chillcore> also correcting things ... no idea how to do that sanely
13:25:32  <Eddi|zuHause> just look at COBOL
13:25:57  <chillcore> I read abook about it never used it so ...
13:26:07  <chillcore> my brother does COBOL
13:26:22  <chillcore> unless they changed at Colruyt
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13:27:16  <chillcore> we don't talk much about work in the family ... just how's it going or found a new job yet?
13:28:50  <chillcore> any experts on Firefox here?
13:29:12  <chillcore> I want to make a public PC safe for multiple users somehow
13:29:20  <chillcore> in and idiot proof way
13:29:43  <chillcore> prob is that they keep changing stuffs and enabling things they should not
13:30:06  <chillcore> so that the next user has no access to the previous his data/cookies
13:30:36  <chillcore> prob is where it is at they are not aware and they do not reboot browser nor pc between session
13:30:44  <planetmaker> hello
13:30:54  <chillcore> o/ planetmaker
13:31:29  <chillcore> I huess I will need to educate them ... not hte users but the place where it is
13:32:00  <chillcore> many many many public places belonging to the same institution
13:32:09  <chillcore> all over the country
13:32:26  <chillcore> wait I found a job ...
13:32:36  <chillcore> now convince them to pay me ...
13:32:39  <chillcore> :P
13:33:20  <chillcore> the last time I checked they had a virus
13:33:34  <chillcore> I delete cookies and this one site puts it right back
13:33:43  <chillcore> I disable cokies and it keeps doing it
13:33:56  <Alberth> use a linux or a windows system with different user accounts
13:34:10  <Alberth> hi hi planetmaker
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13:34:19  <chillcore> that is exactly the prob Alberth
13:35:00  <chillcore> on boot it resets to satndard setting and ask your name ... you enter whatever so they can monitor you somewhat
13:35:15  <chillcore> but between users they do not boot
13:35:43  <chillcore> granted they have no access to USB or CD but who needs that while online
13:36:04  <Alberth> why would need to boot? just logout
13:36:22  <chillcore> hmm ... forced logout
13:36:36  <chillcore> that is an idea ...
13:37:04  <chillcore> and forbid FB and the likes ...
13:37:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: so which is more readable? o_O Guido thinks the new one, approximately
13:38:51  <chillcore> ye I'll see if I can make them do that ... sessions of 15 minutes or so and it logs out automatically
13:39:11  <chillcore> these PCs are meant for people wh have no internet at home and can  not afford it
13:39:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends on how fluent you are in functional programming
13:39:31  <andythenorth> not
13:39:38  <andythenorth> no Lisp, no Haskell
13:39:47  <andythenorth> no Erlang
13:39:52  <andythenorth> no Scheme
13:39:59  <chillcore> anyhoo thx for the hint Alberth, I'll fist have to convince them there is a serious privacy issue at hand
13:40:08  <chillcore> then take it from there
13:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> reduce is often stretching it a bit
13:40:26  <andythenorth> I read a long essay the other day that OO, imperative programming and iterators are killing us
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13:40:46  <andythenorth> and that we should embrace functional programming and immutable state
13:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> loads of things are killing us...
13:41:01  <andythenorth> it was all very appealing until I tried to understand the examples
13:41:02  <chillcore> The biggest prob is that when you speak about that they look at you like you are some kind of madman alberth
13:41:28  <chillcore> even highly educated peeps
13:42:03  <Alberth> very few people understand it  :(
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13:42:18  <chillcore> when I see a PC with the password stickered to it my hair in the back of my neck stannds up
13:42:21  <chillcore> sadly enough
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13:42:42  <chillcore> the other day I said something about that and the reaction was ... oh but that is not my pc
13:42:59  <chillcore> still it contains very sensitive data
13:43:05  <TELK> Hello, is there any way to show non-english in dedicated server command(console) window?
13:43:15  <chillcore> social security , medical , whatever you can think of
13:43:18  <Eddi|zuHause> TELK: no
13:43:25  <TELK> Thanks
13:43:33  <Alberth> quite chillcore
13:43:35  <chillcore> those are not the public pcs bythe way ... thank god
13:43:52  <TELK> oh, I see you chillcre :)
13:44:12  <chillcore> hello TELK, have we met before?
13:44:18  <TELK> many korean uses your branches
13:44:31  <chillcore> your nick does not ring a bell
13:44:41  <TELK> You are famous in korean ottd users
13:44:44  <chillcore> ah like that ...
13:45:02  <chillcore> WOOT
13:45:29  * chillcore checks bank account
13:45:33  <chillcore> nope empty
13:45:35  <Alberth> andythenorth: made more new thingies
13:45:38  <chillcore> just kidding ;)
13:45:39  <TELK> lol
13:45:46  <chillcore> but it is empty ...
13:46:19  <chillcore> I am happy to hear that I reach that far ..; and famous no less
13:46:24  * chillcore blushes
13:46:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: no set? o_O
13:46:46  <Alberth> hmm, good point
13:46:47  <TELK> It was very nice to meet you, chillcore :)
13:46:56  <chillcore> tell em I said hello ;) TELK
13:47:00  <chillcore> likewise
13:47:25  <Alberth>   set-ted
13:47:27  <TELK> byebye and thanks for answer Eddi
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13:49:25  <andythenorth> puts out a list of tuples now, instead of a list of ints ;)
13:49:35  <andythenorth> the union() fixes that
13:50:30  <chillcore> that was ... unexpected
13:50:43  <Alberth> you just need all years, no matter if entry or exit date?
13:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the internet, what can you really expect?
13:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that's just the korean way of saying "thanks for your patchpack, lots of people i know use it"
13:52:11  <chillcore> ye maybe ... very kind though
13:53:09  <chillcore> ego goes throug the roof ... feet still touching ground ? check
13:53:12  <chillcore> :P
13:54:09  <andythenorth> Alberth: yes, it ends up generating simple lists like
13:54:10  <andythenorth> [0, 2010, 5000001]
13:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i've got this alarm clock
13:54:17  <frosch123> chillcore: TELK runs the korean forums
13:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that goes "miau" at completely random intervals
13:54:57  <andythenorth> :)
13:55:18  <chillcore> ok Alberth ..;. equivalent to tt-forums fame, not national tv fame :P
13:55:36  <chillcore> I'd better do some coding
13:56:02  <chillcore> else not much is going to happen today  ..
13:57:55  <chillcore> must be fun Eddi ... my little buddy left me a portal gun in minecraft ... I thought I was alone
13:58:18  <chillcore> then this thing starts talking and I almost peed myself
13:58:26  <chillcore> sound was way up
13:58:51  <Alberth> andythenorth:   this seems the simplest solution
13:59:24  <andythenorth> because union() is infrequently used and has to be looked up, and has to be fed a list comprehension? o_O
13:59:36  <Alberth> no idea how to do what you want in a single line, although it sounds like something you might want to do
13:59:54  <andythenorth> nah
13:59:59  <andythenorth> loop
14:00:06  <andythenorth> this isn’t a place for golf
14:00:13  <chillcore> oh tgen bugreports coming in ... yay
14:00:20  <Alberth> hmm, update, probably
14:00:58  <Alberth> ah, yes     years.update(variant.intro_date, variant.end_date)
14:01:57  <Alberth> x = x.union(y)    <-->   x.update(y)
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14:04:38  <andythenorth> update does seem better here
14:04:42  <andythenorth> no new set returned
14:07:37  <andythenorth>             years.update((variant.intro_date, variant.end_date))
14:08:39  <Alberth> ah, no multiple arguments I guess
14:09:14  <andythenorth> seems to accept an iterable as first arg
14:09:47  <andythenorth> anyway, works thanks
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14:22:44  <andythenorth> ho
14:22:54  <andythenorth> pyflakes hates pixa
14:23:16  <samu> hi
14:23:33  <andythenorth> from pixa import *
14:23:38  <andythenorth> is verboten
14:23:48  <chillcore> darn this is going to be one of them hard to fix pacthes ... can not reproduce
14:23:59  <chillcore> either windos or newgrf related
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14:25:04  <andythenorth> hmm
14:25:10  <andythenorth> I have a module, with no test cases
14:25:22  <chillcore> could be newgrf as I have not yet adjusted the API to the new setting .. which is the same but not
14:25:26  <andythenorth> and to make it valid python 3, I think I have to break the API
14:26:37  <chillcore> hehe andy ... you fix mine and I fix yours?  ... but honestly I stink at newgrf related stuffs
14:26:43  <andythenorth> this is pure python
14:26:54  <chillcore> then I smeel even worse ;)
14:27:02  <chillcore> s smeel/smell
14:27:18  <andythenorth> I can’t face it right now :P
14:29:47  <chillcore> I know the feeling andy
14:31:12  <chillcore> question ... when changing API widgets but not the setting behind it, except for adding custom ... Do I need to adjust something else?
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14:31:46  <frosch123> gs/ai api?
14:31:52  <chillcore> both
14:32:00  <chillcore> smoothness puldown
14:32:01  <frosch123> there is a script to generate those files
14:32:21  <chillcore> ok ...
14:33:06  <frosch123> and
14:33:39  <chillcore> and I execute them frm console the same location as compiling yes?
14:33:56  <frosch123> there is no compatbiilty layer in the script widget api, it is supposed to only work as long as windows do not change
14:34:10  <frosch123> since there is no way to make it compatible anyway
14:34:33  <frosch123> i think you run the sripts from the folder they are in
14:34:36  <frosch123> src/script/api
14:34:41  <chillcore> besides changing the widget name it moved gui
14:35:16  <chillcore> I'll give it a go ... I have my backup on forum
14:38:30  <chillcore> sounds like the right one
14:39:49  <chillcore> yep that was it ... thank you frosch ... I would never have found that
14:40:28  <chillcore> but but it seems you forgot to do it yourself in trunk ...
14:40:41  <chillcore> I see WID_GO_GUI_ZOOM_DROPDOWN
14:41:09  <chillcore> ^^^ inside my newly created patch
14:42:20  <chillcore> or maybe it is not needed in trunk ... i dunno
14:43:32  <chillcore> you == someone or the compiler
14:46:06  <chillcore> either way I am glad I did not have to type all that manually
14:48:44  <frosch123> likely it got forgotten in trunk :)
14:49:15  <frosch123> we cannot run it automatically on build, due to inferior operating systems
14:50:07  <chillcore> I sees
14:51:08  <chillcore> I left it as a seperate patch so it is just a matter of deleting patch and running script again
14:53:08  <samu>
14:53:31  <samu> need opinion
14:54:55  <chillcore> it is too cold for my taste <- opinion
14:55:06  <chillcore> context samu?
14:56:03  <samu> ah, right
14:56:06  <Alberth> except for the block at the lower left, it doesn't make much sense to have such large tracks
14:56:13  <samu> costs for water
14:56:17  <samu> canal
14:56:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27152 /trunk (3 files in 3 dirs) (2015-02-15 14:56:21 UTC)
14:56:28  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Generated files.
14:56:42  <samu> all others are default prices, canal prices are being edited
15:03:31  <chillcore> thank you frosch for the quick fix ... again ;)
15:03:42  <samu> I was thinking
15:03:54  <samu> raise maintenance costs for canal
15:04:00  <samu> but lower cost for building it
15:04:43  <samu> how much lower? that is the question
15:06:01  <samu> build price is  at 1/8 of default costs
15:07:32  *** liq4 [] has quit []
15:07:43  <samu> 1/1 = 5000, 1/2 = 2500, 1/4 = 1250, 1/8 = 625
15:08:30  <chillcore> hmm ... play test samu and see if you can survive early games at all
15:08:38  <chillcore> or make it configurable
15:08:58  <Alberth> it is configurable with a basecost newgrf
15:09:07  <chillcore> it should be yes ...
15:09:08  <samu> im using the basecost
15:09:10  <samu> yes
15:26:06  <samu> gonna try super imba godly hard settings
15:29:20  <chillcore> k. new version out the door ... where was I  ... dissapearing tilebar when dragged while shaded.
15:30:29  <andythenorth> hurgh
15:30:38  <andythenorth> why am I converting to python 3 anyway? o_O
15:30:49  <Taede> future-proofing?
15:30:58  <andythenorth> faster nmlc
15:31:06  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
15:31:13  <chillcore> only my gui so that is good
15:33:03  <samu> lol im dead already
15:37:58  <samu> woah, can only build 3 ships with a max loan of 100k
15:38:41  <andythenorth> NO_MP=False
15:38:45  <andythenorth> MP=1 ?
15:38:49  <andythenorth> better, more terse?
15:39:02  <andythenorth> MP=16, and pass that to the number of pool threads?
15:39:38  * andythenorth trying to remove the gak from the developer interface
15:41:54  <andythenorth> JOBS=16?
15:41:58  <andythenorth> POOL=15?
15:43:03  <andythenorth> this is a python MP pool, *not* the GNU make jobs pool
15:45:51  * chillcore sings "Another bug bites the dust tjsaaaah dun dun dun"
15:46:28  <chillcore> if (this->IsShaded()) return;   where did I steal that and why ...
15:46:35  <chillcore> beats me
15:53:22  <samu> maintenance costs need to be higher, but not that much higher after all
15:53:47  <samu> about double or 4x the current
15:54:41  <samu> else ship running costs + construction cost + property maintenance will be higher than ship income
15:55:21  <samu> + loan interest also
15:55:26  <samu> forgot about that
15:59:07  <andythenorth> hmm
15:59:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe pass make's -j parameter onto python?
15:59:34  <andythenorth> it’s a good suggestion
15:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if that can be done
16:02:36  *** ard_ [~oftc-webi@] has joined #openttd
16:02:49  <ard_> Helloo!!
16:02:54  <ard_> Can some1 help me?
16:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> not like this.
16:04:05  *** LadyHawk- [] has joined #openttd
16:04:26  <ard_> Can you help me telling me how to play with AI??
16:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> what have you tried so far?
16:05:54  * andythenorth wonders if 1 worker thread is too conservative by default :P
16:05:59  <andythenorth> 16 is rude
16:07:33  <andythenorth> also COMPILE_FASTER (unrelated to use of worker thread pool) is a stupid arg name
16:08:06  <andythenorth> it strictly enables partial compiles by only recompiling changed vehicles
16:08:12  <ard_> no cab and much more AI and does nothing
16:08:18  <andythenorth> pc=True?
16:08:30  <andythenorth> pc=y?
16:08:32  <andythenorth> pc=on?
16:08:42  * andythenorth is unfamiliar with conventional interfaces to this stuff
16:09:36  *** LadyHawk [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:09:37  *** LadyHawk- is now known as LadyHawk
16:10:31  <ard_> Some1 tell how to play with AI and works good and do something
16:12:17  <lobster> well, to be fairly honest people will need some more info first
16:12:45  <lobster> what version are you running? which AI are you trying to get working? did you follow the installation guide?
16:12:55  <lobster> and does it give you some sort of error?
16:12:59  <lobster> that kinda stuff
16:14:37  <ard_> yeah
16:14:40  <ard_> Crash
16:15:14  <ard_> and i heave 1.4.4 version
16:18:23  <planetmaker> ard_: you always get more info than 'crash'. And 'AI'
16:18:23  <ard_> i heave donwload 6 AI and no1 works
16:18:50  <planetmaker> what crashes? OpenTTD or the AIs?
16:19:02  <ard_> ais
16:20:00  <planetmaker> did you use ingame content download to obtain them?
16:20:02  <planetmaker> and which?
16:20:10  <ard_> yes
16:20:18  <ard_> ingame
16:20:53  <ard_> Nocab
16:21:02  <ard_> terron
16:23:39  <chillcore>
16:24:14  <chillcore> one more for the gui gods ... alignment in _nested_create_scenario_widgets[]
16:26:18  <Alberth> ...
16:26:44  <ard_> ????
16:28:42  <Alberth> ard_: you can have a look in the thread of an ai, to check if it is reported and/or fixed already
16:29:09  <Alberth>   <-- has links
16:30:36  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:39:56  <Alberth> haha chillcore :)
16:42:53  <chillcore> ? Alberth
16:43:01  <chillcore> sorry was absent for a sec
16:43:22  *** ard_ [~oftc-webi@] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
16:43:41  <chillcore> s absent/not here    <- spelling :P
16:44:11  <Alberth> your paste with the looooong line
16:44:21  <chillcore> ah ok
16:44:33  <chillcore> happens ... to me too
16:45:13  <chillcore> there are guis where it is aligned like that and most likely got copied from there
16:45:14  <Alberth> one of the few cases where non-wrapping editors are useful
16:45:20  *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has joined #openttd
16:45:30  <chillcore> gedit
16:46:50  <chillcore> I should fix em all when encounterd,
16:46:52  <Alberth> I mostly get annoyed with any editor that doesn't act like vi/vim  :)
16:47:20  <Alberth> I guess I am too much attached to it :)
16:47:38  <chillcore> yeah usually I go for notepad++ but this gedit is  pretty much the same
16:48:03  <Alberth> in the KDE world, there is kate and kwrite
16:49:05  <chillcore> I have too many choice too mention ... kinda anoying that different types of files open different editors
16:49:16  <chillcore> had to change with "open with ..."
16:49:27  <Alberth> change your preferences :)
16:50:01  <chillcore> for .ini, .h and cpp ... not that they are bad but i prefer in one gui
16:50:03  <chillcore> I did
16:51:06  <Alberth> yep, I even have different configurations for files in different projects :)
16:51:17  * LordAro regularly tries to :wq in gedit
16:51:22  <LordAro> or notepad++
16:51:44  <Alberth> not ESC?  :)
16:52:20  <chillcore> ye that is anoying ... one of them in settings.ini two  of theses ' makes half the page be pink text
16:52:39  <chillcore> ' thes in the comments that is
16:52:50  <Alberth> :set color=none    :)
16:53:21  <chillcore> syntax highlighting is usefull ... fixed it in the meantime
16:54:08  <chillcore> it helps to see structure in the files
16:54:27  <samu> canal maintenance: 4x default - looks fine, very tight for a first transportation route in very hard settings
16:54:50  <samu> canal cost: 1/8 default
16:55:10  <Alberth> you don't want to start with canal building as first route
16:55:17  <chillcore> but if I see more of them lines should they all be fixed? there are more and I'll do them when encounterd close by...  Alberth
16:55:41  <Alberth> chillcore: hmm, tough one
16:56:08  <samu> i'm comparing the same route vs rail and vs road
16:56:32  <samu> construction costs were similar to rail, road was cheapest
16:57:26  <samu> const costs: 49650 vs 45288 vs 23856
16:58:22  <samu> new vehicles: 36562 vs 32339 vs 73084
16:58:39  <samu> 1 ship, 1 train, 11 trucks
17:00:00  <samu> running costs: 4320 vs 3249 vs 7062
17:00:31  <samu> maintenance costs: 2730 vs 2189 vs 419
17:01:15  <chillcore> Alberth: ye ... then again you did break all of our patches too long time ago ... every single on in existance
17:01:20  <chillcore> :P
17:01:29  <chillcore> we can tackle this later maybe
17:01:59  <Alberth> just collect them, and we'll see
17:02:15  <Alberth> work in the newworld gen window isn't done yet :)
17:02:29  <chillcore> indeedeleedom
17:02:30  <samu> income on the first year: 16934 vs 20463 vs 30431
17:03:34  <chillcore> I got 5-ish patches/fixxes left to do
17:03:52  <chillcore> but for everyone I solve 2 emerge so make that 20-ish fixes
17:04:23  <samu> profit graph is lowest for ship, but considering the first route was all canal only
17:04:32  <samu> I think i am satisfied
17:04:41  <chillcore> there are more but those are adons/improvement in functionality
17:04:55  <chillcore> eg sliders
17:05:07  <chillcore> useful but not needed perse
17:06:15  <samu> it can profit :) that's all that I cared to do
17:06:16  <Alberth> samu: costs should be more varied imho
17:06:41  <samu> tell me
17:06:53  <Alberth> a player should make a smart choice how to transport cargo, if you make it all the same, you eliminate that need
17:08:05  <Alberth> that's also why there are more than one train, for example, you should think which one to use at what place
17:08:26  <Alberth> otherwise, you can have just one train for everything
17:08:46  <samu> this train is size 6
17:08:52  <samu> forgot to mention
17:11:03  <samu> for this test I was only trying to see if it was even possible to start a all-canal route with only 100k loan
17:12:36  <samu> it is, but it's not really getting you loads of cash
17:12:46  *** gk [] has joined #openttd
17:13:44  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you can try to make ships more profitable by increasing the cargo aging interval
17:14:02  <Eddi|zuHause> if you double the interval, a ship will make as much money as a train twice the speed
17:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause> if you feel fancy, you can do this only for "non-perishable" cargos (coal, steel, ...)
17:16:21  <samu> ships last 30 years
17:16:55  <samu> i'm okay that they profit half than a train
17:17:51  <samu> it's not exactly how much they profit that worries me, but the building / maintenance costs in relation to profit
17:19:55  <samu> year 1951 profit: 6468 vs 14495 vs 21677
17:20:04  <samu> ship lowest, trucks highest
17:21:05  <Alberth> ships should be high volume transport imho
17:21:58  <Alberth> insane high construction costs, and small profits, so you need all those years to get your investment back
17:22:39  <samu> well, yeah, as you said, not best to start with ships and canal
17:22:52  <samu> i could start with ships without needing to build any canal tile
17:23:03  <samu> but i was doing the extreme here
17:23:09  <samu> see if it was possible
17:24:52  <V453000> cause openttd is only about making money :)
17:25:56  <roidal_> maybe someone can explain me the operating profit graph?
17:27:00  <roidal_> even if i have a year with negativ income the graph stays above 0
17:29:32  <roidal_> negativ win*
17:29:36  <roidal_> or loss
17:29:38  <roidal_> :D
17:32:52  *** Biolunar_ [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:32:58  <samu> trying to make my 2nd ship
17:33:04  <samu> going the same route
17:33:11  <samu> i'm 2k short
17:36:02  *** roidal_ is now known as roidal
17:38:04  <roidal> i think thats a bug
17:40:08  <samu> 2 ships, 3 trains, 23 road vehicles, though I build 24, 1 died to a ufo colision
17:40:23  <samu> gonna wait for year 1955
17:42:28  <samu> hmm 23 trucks is excessive for this route, must expand stations
17:44:14  <Taede> roidal, which graph are you looking at? if it is income, it can only be => 0, as that counts only the income vehicles get. expenses (running cost, maintenance cost etc) do not count for that graph (iirc)
17:44:29  <Taede> i think you want the 'operating profit' graph
17:45:00  <roidal> Taede: yes, i mean the 'operating profit'
17:45:05  <roidal> but it seems to be broken in 1.4.4.
17:45:15  <Taede> screenshot?
17:45:32  <roidal> will make one
17:45:56  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27153 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2015-02-15 17:45:47 UTC)
17:45:57  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:58  <DorpsGek> german - 3 changes by mbender
17:45:59  <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
17:46:00  <DorpsGek> malay - 12 changes by im54
17:48:29  <roidal> Taede: where i should upload the screenshot?
17:51:02  <Taede> tinypic or similar service
17:51:31  <Taede> anything thatll let the public see your image
17:52:52  <Taede> and/or upload the savegame to dropbox or similar
17:53:14  <samu> albert is right
17:53:35  <roidal> Taede:
17:53:48  <roidal> year 2032
17:53:50  <samu> trains and trucks have already achieved saturation point
17:54:11  <samu> ships have not
17:55:08  <andythenorth> is it acceptable to shorten ‘incremental’ to ‘inc’ as an arg?
17:55:13  <andythenorth> or does it conflate with other things?
17:55:32  <Taede> at a guess, i'd say construction costs (and new vehicle costs) are not used in those graphs at all
17:55:39  <Taede> probably intended behaviour
17:56:02  <Alberth> andythenorth: seems ok to me, perhaps is_inc  (if it is a boolean)
17:56:16  <roidal> Taede: what costs are used for this graph?
17:56:54  <roidal> only running costs?
17:56:59  <Taede> income, running costs, maintenance, interest (in other words, regular outgoings and incoming)
17:57:21  <roidal> strange
17:57:24  <roidal> this must be "new"?
17:57:26  <Taede> excluded would be one-offs, eg buying vehicles, terraforming, construction
17:57:59  <roidal> because i remember on a graph
17:58:02  <roidal> where this was included?
17:58:13  <roidal> ...long time ago :D
17:59:07  * andythenorth names it to the terrible ‘isinc’ because _ is hard to type fast
17:59:29  <andythenorth> or ic
18:00:05  <Alberth> search&replace :p
18:00:27  <andythenorth> done
18:00:28  <andythenorth> thanks
18:00:56  <Alberth> or use an editor with completion
18:01:55  <chillcore> <Alberth> search&replace :p   <- and coninue past end of file to make sure to catch 'em all
18:02:05  <chillcore> continue*
18:02:21  <Alberth> ugh, a so terribly broken concept
18:02:38  <chillcore> hmm never had probs with it ...
18:02:55  <Alberth> I have not yet found a use for that behavior, why would you ever not wrap search?
18:03:01  <chillcore> I am rarely at beginning of file ...
18:03:36  <chillcore> compiler will complain though ... just a bit annoying if i patch 2/10 you forgat a few
18:03:48  <chillcore> hmm spelling ...
18:03:55  <Alberth> note, that I am asking for a "not wrapping" use case :)
18:04:07  <chillcore> ok
18:04:32  <Alberth> I can't see a use for it
18:04:35  <chillcore> then no ... no use for that
18:05:11  <chillcore> my bad
18:05:15  <Alberth> which then leads to the problem why an editor has it in the first place :p
18:05:32  <Alberth> np, I didn't formulate it very clearly
18:05:59  <chillcore> story of my lafe Alberth story of my life
18:06:19  <chillcore> hmm typ,ing while eating ... even badder
18:06:23  <chillcore> see
18:06:38  <Alberth> yep, trying that here too :)
18:07:26  <Eddi|zuHause> roidal: i think you're imagining things
18:07:37  <chillcore> bon apetit
18:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe you mix it up with another game
18:08:20  <roidal> maybe youre shure
18:09:39  <frosch123> Alberth: when replace "A" with "AB" you certainly don't want to wrap infinitely :p
18:09:46  *** zeknurn [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:10:29  *** zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
18:10:32  <chillcore> hmm we have a winner ;)
18:11:11  <samu> oh alberth looks like... 2 ships on the same route pays off
18:11:11  <Alberth> frosch123: so you disable wrapping, have to go to the start of the file before you can replace?
18:11:36  <frosch123> well, usualy editors are smart enough to not iterate multiple times over the file when replacing all :p
18:11:42  <Alberth> why not try all lines exactly once instead, no matter where you are?
18:11:56  <samu> getting the 2nd ship is however, the boring part
18:12:07  <frosch123> if in doubt, use sed :)
18:12:09  <andythenorth> use better ships
18:12:19  <samu> there's only 1 cargo ship
18:13:00  <Alberth> I rarely doubt in such cases :p
18:13:16  <samu> 2 ships are profiting better than 3 trains
18:13:19  <andythenorth> anybody want to sanitise pixa?
18:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "continue replacing from beginning of file" usually stops at the point where you started, it doesn't loop
18:13:25  <andythenorth> and make it python 3 compatible?
18:13:30  * andythenorth guesses the answer
18:13:31  <samu> then again, the ship route isn't saturated yet
18:13:39  <samu> the train route is
18:13:47  <Alberth> samu: ships routes are never satured
18:13:48  <samu> it was faster to get 3 trains
18:13:48  <Eddi|zuHause> at least, i never have seen an editor that does...
18:14:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: I could have a go at it, but not today
18:14:27  <samu> i'm transporting coal
18:14:37  <andythenorth> Alberth: another day maybe :)
18:14:54  <andythenorth> it’s mostly stupid illegal imports I think
18:15:21  <Alberth> import *  seems to work less good in python 3
18:15:27  <andythenorth> or not at all :)
18:15:35  <andythenorth> also there’s no tests or reference case
18:15:39  <andythenorth> so testing pixa is a chore
18:15:44  <andythenorth> but I could write that
18:16:10  <Alberth> you're not even using pixa?
18:16:19  <andythenorth> I use it in a couple of places
18:16:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i use it, too
18:16:33  <andythenorth> it’s really convenient
18:16:43  <andythenorth> flipping 2CC colours
18:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but CETS is not ported to python3 either
18:16:46  <Alberth> you have at least 1 other user :)
18:16:46  <andythenorth> recolouring cargos
18:16:51  <andythenorth> bloody users :)
18:17:05  <andythenorth> generating spritesheets programmatically
18:17:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i also know virtually nothing about what changed between 2 and 3
18:17:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to incorporate pixeltool, but never got anywhere with it
18:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i stopped at finding a command line interpreter for javascript
18:18:14  <Alberth> oh, the zephyris thing?
18:18:16  <andythenorth> nodejs?
18:18:18  <andythenorth> maybe
18:18:56  <andythenorth> we should convert the game to voxels :P
18:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause> cubicles!
18:21:51  <andythenorth> eh, apart from pixa, pyflakes is now happy with Iron Horse
18:21:55  <andythenorth> small victories :P
18:22:19  <andythenorth> are conditional imports a stupid idea?
18:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i have the pixa import in a try/catch
18:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> for when it is not installed, i provide stub functions
18:23:23  <andythenorth> Iron Horse being split into rosters, it would sometimes be useful to only compile one roster
18:24:34  <Alberth> another reason why imports should not have side effects :)
18:24:43  <samu> hmm
18:24:54  <samu> gonna try 2x maintenance costs
18:25:00  <andythenorth> imports now mostly don’t have side effects :)
18:25:08  <andythenorth> there are still a few
18:25:16  <andythenorth> but my code is now littered with calls to main()
18:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> then importing "useless" modules shouldn't hurt
18:25:49  <Eddi|zuHause> put the control flow around the calling functions, not the imports
18:25:56  <Alberth> compiled byte code is cached anyway
18:27:45  <andythenorth> ok ta
18:41:41  <andythenorth> is flat better than nested?
18:42:25  <frosch123> green is certainly better than yellow
18:43:30  <andythenorth> that’s what I think too
18:43:32  <andythenorth> except on Tuesdays
18:44:01  <chillcore> lol andy
18:48:24  <chillcore> hmm why do I always hesitate to do something when it is two or three lines and when it is a few hundred I don't  ...
18:48:28  <chillcore> starnge me
18:48:35  <chillcore> strange*
19:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> green is certainly better than yellow <-- so, you are green, but nobody here is yellow.
19:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, maybe samu gets closest to yellow :p
19:01:08  <samu> uh?
19:07:18  <samu> Build Canal: 1/8, Remove Canal: undecided, Build Aqueduct: 1/8, Remove Aqueduct: undecided, Build Lock: 1/4, Remove Lock: unchanged, Canal Maintenance: x2 or x4 (must decide)
19:07:27  *** Romazoon [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:07:44  <chillcore> remove canal  2 * build at least
19:07:57  <samu> maintenance costs quickly go up per each aqueduct tile
19:08:00  <chillcore> cleanup you dirty ...
19:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause> remove should certainly be expensive
19:08:27  <chillcore> but yeah something like that after buildingless cleanup
19:08:54  <samu> maintenance per canal tile: x1, per aqueduct tile: x4, per lock (includes 2 canals): x8, per lock (without canals): x6
19:09:22  <samu> if the mainentance is to be x4, all those values will go up x4
19:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you might be able to set how many trackbits an aqueduct is counted as, but not sure
19:10:27  <chillcore> that is why you test and play samu, you  do not borrow money and test like a new player would play with it
19:10:55  <chillcore> if you intend to make your modifications available that is
19:11:33  <chillcore> I do that too whenever I tune
19:11:40  <samu> there is some advantages for aqueducts
19:11:48  <chillcore> ofcourse I had the luxury of having a ton of testers
19:11:51  <samu> can build stuff below them
19:11:57  <chillcore> so it took me less time
19:12:50  <chillcore> and later you make configs and do a hard setting and an easy one
19:13:03  <chillcore> when done with that custom or move on
19:13:14  <chillcore> to a new challange
19:13:39  <chillcore> anyhoo
19:14:34  <Eddi|zuHause> auf zum atem!
19:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (that
19:15:48  <samu> i know, seems like aqueducts as first route is a no
19:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> 's one of those things i have no idea how the english original joke might have been)
19:16:08  <samu> if maintenance is at x4, then it's a no
19:16:15  <samu> at x2, i'm unsure, must try
19:16:18  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: lmgtfy?
19:16:32  <chillcore> 0/
19:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: probably not.
19:17:07  <samu> locks seem fine
19:17:28  <samu> i had 3 locks in the first test
19:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: keep in mind that infrastructure costs go up the more you have of that type of infrastructure
19:17:34  <Rubidium> vs
19:18:06  <samu> there's only "canal" maintenance, everything goes to that
19:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: maybe that joke actually wins something by the nonsensicalness of the german translation.
19:21:04  <chillcore> I am watching in german
19:23:57  <Rubidium> yeah, translating jokes is a major PITA
19:26:03  <Rubidium> although hearing dubbed things when you are very familiar with the original voices and sounds is really annoying as well
19:26:45  * andythenorth wonders if it’s worth trying to do a two factor sort in python
19:26:47  <andythenorth> or tmwftlb
19:27:37  <Rubidium> what's a two factor sort?
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19:28:03  <andythenorth> e.g, sort lexically by name, then within ‘a’, sort by intro date
19:28:08  <andythenorth> (made up case, but similar)
19:28:24  <andythenorth> bad example
19:28:58  <Alberth> make a tuple of values to sort one (name, intro_date, full_data)
19:28:59  <Rubidium> shouldn't you always do that if you want stable sort results?
19:29:51  <samu> daium
19:30:05  <samu> aqueduct costs are so difficult
19:30:08  <samu> to balance
19:31:57  <chillcore> *chillcore still ponders about that max heighlevel setting ...
19:32:29  <chillcore> snowline goes up to heighest level right ...
19:33:02  <chillcore> so why do we need an upperlimit for that ?
19:33:07  <chillcore> 255 done
19:33:16  <chillcore> it is the bottom that varies
19:33:29  <chillcore> untill now always below 15
19:34:03  <chillcore> so igf we raise the top levels become snow
19:34:08  <chillcore> again done
19:34:16  <chillcore> what is the diff with now
19:34:23  <chillcore> is say we lower to  3
19:34:31  <chillcore> the top levell I mean
19:34:46  <chillcore> we hate 1 lien of snow
19:34:58  <chillcore> amse if you come dowwn from 255 to 1
19:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> although hearing dubbed things when you are very familiar with the original voices and sounds is really annoying as well <-- yes, as soon as you compare the translation with the original, the translation basically lost.
19:35:04  <chillcore> no snow
19:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but a good translation makes you laugh anyway
19:35:12  <andythenorth> hmm
19:35:15  <chillcore> I really misss the point
19:35:21  <chillcore> NewGRF or not
19:35:24  <andythenorth> seems complex sorts are just handled in python by sorted()
19:35:26  <frosch123> chillcore: just grep the source for places where max_heightlevel is used
19:35:32  <andythenorth> htf does that work :|
19:35:35  * andythenorth mind blown
19:35:56  <chillcore> grep ...
19:36:12  <andythenorth> surely if I sort once, then sort again, the order of the first sort is destroyed
19:36:15  <Alberth> andythenorth: ?
19:36:25  <chillcore> k
19:36:44  <frosch123> chillcore:
19:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: supply it a cmp function
19:36:52  <samu> lol, i made the route, now i don't have money for the ship
19:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CETS does this
19:37:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the function is probably in scripts/
19:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and used in scripts/
19:37:54  <andythenorth>
19:37:59  <andythenorth> apparently it magically just works
19:38:00  <chillcore> thx for the link
19:38:03  <andythenorth> according to those docs
19:38:57  <andythenorth> I haven’t tested it, but that example would seem to violate expected behaviour
19:39:01  <chillcore> I can do that on a folder directly ?
19:39:24  <samu> i have a problem, if i lower the cost factor for the aqueduct one more half, then everything else must also be lowered, but then things won't start to make much sense
19:39:33  <samu> cost wise
19:39:55  <frosch123> chillcore: does your editor not allow searching in all files?
19:41:03  <samu> lock pricing doesn't make much sense already
19:41:13  <samu> thx to 2 canal tiles being in the cost
19:41:31  <Alberth> andythenorth: it looks like you sort on the 2nd key first
19:42:19  <samu> at such prices, making ships would also be too good for what I had in mind
19:42:36  <samu> that is, if no aqueduct is used
19:43:43  <andythenorth> maybe it depends on that example using triples
19:43:50  <andythenorth> I have a list of objects I wanted to sort
19:44:29  <andythenorth> I might use a dict of lists instead, grouping on the first sort
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19:44:56  <chillcore> I was momentarily busy ... going to do it in a bit
19:45:03  <chillcore> never tested really
19:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i'm the only one remembering this, but there was a grep.exe in novell dos 7
19:45:46  <samu> aqueduct at 1/16 will make lock pricing make no sense
19:45:47  <chillcore> was just trying to understand why snowline could be a reason
19:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i think
19:45:59  <chillcore> I'll will happily accept another reason np
19:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> man that was a long time ago
19:46:13  <chillcore> testing
19:46:56  <samu> a 6 sized aqueduct would be cheaper, and 2 locks taking 6 tiles, and with the advantage of building routes underneath
19:47:10  <chillcore> its doing something ...
19:47:11  <samu> typoe, would be cheaper than*
19:47:48  <chillcore> should it take long?
19:47:59  <chillcore> ish
19:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: how is that a problem?
19:48:49  <samu> 2 locks in a row, will block
19:48:58  <samu> no route underneath
19:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. so don't use locks in that situation.
19:49:45  <Rubidium> use the chunnel patch... problem solved ;)
19:49:50  <samu> they should be cheaper
19:50:00  <samu> precisely because of that disadvantage
19:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> no
19:50:44  <Eddi|zuHause> locks have their strength in moving ships up multiple times
19:50:50  <peter1138> Locks never block...
19:51:18  <samu> i mean 2 locks together, one going down, one going up versus 1 aqueduct
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19:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can build bridges over the canal, instead of going under it..
19:51:29  <DanMacK> Hey
19:51:35  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: i think your case is bogus.
19:51:39  <samu> the 2 locks structure will create a barrier
19:51:43  <samu> no bridge possible
19:51:45  <Alberth> ho, DanMacK
19:52:15  <samu> but with aqueduct, there's 2 free tiles underneath it, let's me have other routes under it
19:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: things just don't get cheaper, because they are stupid.
19:55:55  <samu> i want my pricing structure to make sense :P
19:57:48  <chillcore> hmm I need a million USB sticks ...
19:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i currently have two.
20:00:31  <chillcore> me 3
20:01:12  <chillcore> one has linux installed for if/when OS should die
20:02:06  <chillcore> could beused as portable pc hehe
20:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause> in those cases i usually dig through the layers on my desk to find that knoppix cd i downloaded 5 years ago.
20:02:22  <chillcore> just attach usb screen and go
20:02:38  <chillcore> sorta
20:02:51  <chillcore> would need really small chip
20:02:58  <chillcore> and power ofcourse
20:03:04  <chillcore> maybe in screenie
20:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are USB-stick-sized computers nowadays
20:03:39  <chillcore> sure ..; google glass and smaller
20:04:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it won't be very powerful, but these devices usually serve as thin client anyway, so the heavy stuff is on some "cloud" server somewhere
20:04:35  <chillcore> ye
20:06:09  <chillcore> it served me well last year when my win 8 died and the store was closed
20:06:36  <chillcore> my stuff was not on there but I could use the laptop normally
20:06:56  <chillcore> almost just a bit slow loading of progs
20:07:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ramdrive/unionfs?
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20:29:59  <samu> there's a £43 construction cost difference, favoring aqueduct, but a £36 maintenance cost per year difference, favoring 2xlocks
20:31:03  <samu> I guess I'll accept this compromise
20:31:12  <chillcore> sorry eddi got distracted ...
20:31:36  <chillcore> ramdrive for that usb?
20:33:19  * chillcore needs more screenspace
20:34:38  <chillcore> or rather connections to attach screens to
20:36:08  <andythenorth> hmm
20:36:27  <andythenorth> ternary operator is to weird to use for things like appending to lists
20:36:38  <andythenorth> foo.append(bar) if True else None is weird
20:36:49  <andythenorth> too *
20:41:27  <Alberth> yep, I don't use it at all
20:43:02  <andythenorth> works well in templates and such
20:43:07  <andythenorth> neater than my weird tuple trick
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20:54:02  <TrueBrain> talking about Python, here is a nice riddle
20:54:06  <TrueBrain> a = {"a": 1}
20:54:10  <TrueBrain> "a" in a == True
20:54:26  <TrueBrain> what do you think the answer is, and if you would add (), where would they be? :D
20:55:05  <chillcore> 1 pair of ()?
20:55:53  <frosch123> well, the answer is easy to guess from the fact that tb asks a question :)
20:56:11  <frosch123> but to track it off-topic
20:56:27  <frosch123> "== True" and "!= False" is silly
20:56:34  <chillcore> huhu
20:56:37  <frosch123> in all languages except C
20:56:38  <TrueBrain> well, the answer might surprise you in this case
20:56:43  <TrueBrain> as that statement does not really what you expect
20:56:48  <TrueBrain> like .. it really doesnt :)
20:57:01  <frosch123> though C being the exception just shows to silly C is :p
20:57:08  <TrueBrain> "a" is in a, so you would expect it to return True .. but it doesn't :P
20:57:19  <TrueBrain> ("a" in a) == True returns True
20:57:27  <TrueBrain> "a" in (a == True) returns TypeError
20:57:31  <TrueBrain> "a" in a == True returns False
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20:57:42  <TrueBrain> thought it would be nice to share :D
20:58:32  <chillcore> never done python yet and it is ;)
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20:59:42  <frosch123> hmm, i would have guessed all of them, except the last one
20:59:46  <andythenorth> is there some curve speed penalty property for trains?
20:59:54  * andythenorth ponders dibbling narrow gauge up
20:59:55  <frosch123> why is '"a" in a == True' False ?
21:00:16  <TrueBrain> frosch123: now that is the question ;)
21:00:34  <TrueBrain> not often you see in a language that adding () gives other results than without any :)
21:00:48  <TrueBrain> if I would guess, I would say it does something like type("a" in a) == type(True)
21:00:54  <TrueBrain> which is False
21:01:03  * andythenorth always adds the brackets in (2 * 2) + 4
21:01:12  <andythenorth> because reasons
21:01:28  <TrueBrain> well, the above Python snippet suggests you would be more safe than I would be :P
21:02:04  <TrueBrain> anyway, time for a good night sleep :)
21:02:13  <Alberth> perhaps the  x <= y <= z syntax is interfering?
21:02:47  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit []
21:03:58  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:04:05  <Alberth> hmm, nice one to report :p
21:09:07  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
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21:13:25  <frosch123> night
21:13:28  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
21:14:27  <samu> looks like there is a bug in calculating lock price
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21:15:37  <samu> it's cheaper to build it on it's own than building on a rivercliff
21:15:50  <samu> shouldn't it be the opposite?
21:16:17  <chillcore> bug bug ... it has a price yes... needs tuning
21:16:46  <samu> it is adding 10k to the total
21:17:34  <chillcore> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:18:31  <samu> don't add the 10k
21:18:35  <samu> and it's fixed
21:19:18  <Alberth> don't bother about 10k, and it's a non-issue
21:19:34  <chillcore>  chillcore: does your editor not allow searching in all files?
21:19:38  <Alberth> in particular as you have a zillion, so 10k more or less makes no difference
21:19:44  <chillcore> I was reading ab it ...
21:19:51  <samu> omg alberth :O
21:19:59  <chillcore> workbench allowzed clicking a revision and search that from gui
21:20:52  <Alberth> you're at linux right?
21:20:56  <chillcore> ye
21:21:03  <chillcore> linux mint debian based
21:21:17  <Alberth> open a terminal right next to the editor, install 'ack', done
21:21:21  <chillcore> but not much installed and configured yet
21:21:53  <samu> oh, it's 11250 in excess
21:22:03  <chillcore> k alberth ...
21:22:09  <Alberth> hmm, debian gave it a weird name....
21:22:53  <Alberth> chillcore: ack-grep
21:22:58  <samu> 12304 - 1054 = 11250
21:23:16  <Alberth> magic!
21:23:19  <samu> yep, for me this looks like bug
21:23:30  <samu> that rivercliff tile isn't cleared
21:23:42  <samu> when i destroy the lock, it's still there
21:23:54  <samu> shouldn't account those 11250
21:23:57  <Alberth> it is, there were rocks and stuff, boats break when they hit rock
21:24:41  <samu> rocks don't come back when i destroy lock
21:24:55  <chillcore> installed
21:24:58  <Alberth> they were removed :)
21:25:40  <Alberth> chillcore: open terminal,   "ack-grep <term>"
21:25:47  <samu> i'm reporting it as bug
21:26:17  <Alberth> samu: it needs a stronger argument than "I think it's wrong"
21:26:38  <samu> the rivertile is kept wen a lock is built
21:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i always felt rocks were "wrong"
21:26:45  <samu> and also when destroyed
21:27:00  <chillcore> naw it works ...
21:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> they should maybe have a bit like desert, so it comes back when clear
21:27:08  <chillcore> why is this not default?
21:27:12  <chillcore> hmm
21:27:48  <chillcore> thx Alberth
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21:28:04  <Alberth> it's mostly like recursive grep, but does some added magic, like skipping certain files
21:28:23  <chillcore> ok
21:28:31  <Alberth> option -i does case-insensitive search,  -l just dumps filenames
21:28:53  <samu> there is no price for a cliffed canal
21:28:55  <Alberth> and I added an  "ack"  alias, as that's how it is called at my Fedora system
21:28:57  <andythenorth> bollocks, /me used multiprocessing, and now has 2 problems
21:29:02  <andythenorth> :)
21:29:03  <samu> there's only the price for the lock
21:29:09  * andythenorth wanted to say the cliche
21:29:21  <Alberth> you succeeded :)
21:29:22  <samu> the price can be based on the lock itself, not on the river
21:29:49  <chillcore> ye If I ghad nknow I had to  install it ...silly me
21:30:08  <chillcore> but now I also know I can do the same in my gui
21:30:09  <samu> it's wrong that when I build a lock on 3 dry tiles it is cheaper than building it on river/rivercliff/sea
21:30:24  <chillcore> doh typing
21:30:47  <chillcore> thank you
21:30:50  <Alberth> there are way too many packages to install all :)
21:31:10  <chillcore> true
21:31:28  <Alberth> so standard tactic if you don't have something, look for a package :p
21:31:37  <chillcore> good tip
21:32:10  <Alberth> though I only install packages from trusted sites, like fedora
21:34:12  <samu> I see your problem alberth
21:35:24  <Alberth> samu: nobody said you have to build over a river cliff, you can just build next to it, if you want
21:35:50  <samu> that defies common sense
21:35:55  <andythenorth> hmm stumped
21:36:00  <Rubidium> samu: it's cheaper to build a lock on a "dry" bit of land because otherwise you first need to drain the location where to build the lock *or* use expensive under water construction
21:37:08  <andythenorth> getting different results when using multiprocessing
21:37:13  <andythenorth> I’m relying on python object hashes
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21:37:23  <andythenorth> maybe they’re not consistent under multiprocessing
21:37:32  <samu> that logic isn't consistent
21:37:54  <samu> if I remove a lock that was built on dry tiles, it won't cost 10k..
21:38:17  <andythenorth> bye
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21:40:14  <samu> there could declived canal tiles
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21:40:40  <samu> force the lock to build that declived tile
21:41:09  <samu> damn my english today is horrible
21:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> perhaps the  x <= y <= z syntax is interfering? <-- that would be my first thought, too. but that would mean it tests '("a" in a) and (a == True)', which would bring back the typeerror
21:42:18  <samu> when building a canal tile on a river tile, it won't cost me 11250, just the cost of that canal tile, it ignores the river
21:42:39  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yep, 'False' makes no sense at all, imho
21:42:46  <samu> it should be similar for lock, thought instead of building 2 canal tiles, it builds 3
21:42:56  <samu> and ignore the river
21:43:21  <samu> ships are still unable to go up those cliffed canals on their own without a lock
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21:43:47  <supermop> yo
21:46:01  <samu> while I'm at it, when destroying a canal tile, it shouldn't destroy the river tile if it was built on top of it
21:46:44  <samu> i was once screwed because of this on a citibuilder game
21:47:02  <samu> that river tile was part of someone else area
21:47:11  <samu> and the script destroyed those tiles
21:50:50  <samu> one other bug, though i don't consider it too critical, is upon drag&drop demolishing a large area when locks are in there
21:51:08  <samu> it leaves 1 canal tile behind
21:51:13  <samu> have to destroy a second time
21:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: wrt the river, dynamite always clears the entire tile. it's like removing road stations this way also clears the road.
21:55:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the other thing: are you sure the area was covered with the dynamite?
21:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be an actual bug.
21:58:50  <samu> when using dynamite on a lock that was built on river/rivercliff/sea, it won't clear the river/rivercliff/sea tiles - works as expected
21:59:41  <samu> when using dynamite on a lock that was built on 3 dry tiles, via drag&drop, it leaves 1 canal tile at the upper level
22:00:59  *** DabuYu [DabuYu@] has joined #openttd
22:01:39  <samu> without drag&drop, it leaves 2 canal tiles behind
22:04:19  <samu> woah, discovered another drag&drop problem
22:04:29  <samu> ^_^
22:05:25  <samu> drag and drop over the 3 tiles that were built on top of river/rivercliff/sea, will clear the rivercliff+sea tiles
22:05:50  <samu> only the river tile survives
22:05:56  <samu> the one at the top
22:08:23  <samu> i have a suggestion for the way locks are built, they could follow the same rule as docks
22:08:34  <samu> it needs a water tile already in place
22:08:52  <samu> locks should also do the same, they would require 3 water tiles already in place
22:09:10  <samu> problem is that there is no canalcliff in the game
22:09:20  <samu> just create this
22:09:23  <samu> :p
22:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause> docks only need one water tile in place
22:11:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and the way docks work is ... suboptimal.
22:11:24  <samu> hmm drag and drop clears water under the dock
22:11:35  <samu> i didn't expect this
22:11:44  <samu> why?
22:14:55  <samu> which one is optimal then? lock or dock?
22:15:32  <samu> do you want docks to come packaged with a water tile when built?
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22:24:58  <samu> does the game have a demolish table or something similar?
22:25:29  <juzza1> what is demolish table?
22:25:47  <samu> special rules for demolishing for each type of structure
22:26:28  <Supercheese> There should be something like that
22:27:45  <Supercheese> town_land.h
22:27:59  <Supercheese> HouseSpec
22:28:11  <Supercheese> I presume you have the source at hand
22:28:22  <samu> me, not looking at it, but I have it
22:29:08  <Supercheese> Well, src/table/town_land.h has "rating decrease if removed"
22:29:20  <Supercheese> among other things
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22:49:35  <supermop> what do you guys think about showing purchase sprites from a lower angle
22:49:57  <supermop> like, closer to a side elevation instead of overhead dimetric?
22:52:26  <V453000> why not :)
22:52:48  <V453000> I think especially purchase sprites have a lot of freedom that hasnt been used up yet
22:57:09  <supermop> will it break too many things if tram is longer than normal while loading? visually only
22:57:48  <supermop> i want to have coffee bins removed for loading but then where do they go?
22:58:29  <supermop> is the vehicle info windo sprite same as purchase menu?
23:04:23  <V453000> purchase menu is only purchase menu I think
23:04:31  <V453000> vehicle info windows is just -- view of the vehicle
23:04:45  <V453000> e.g. you could have purchase menu sprite of flatbed wagon for 1 thing
23:04:46  <supermop> ok
23:04:52  <V453000> but in the vehicle info window it always shows the right cargo
23:05:12  <supermop> hmm i messed up this alpha stuff
23:05:27  <supermop> and the chunk of clear plastic is just blue
23:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also have a separate sprite in list/details/details windows by checking var10 (extra_callback_info1)
23:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> last one should be /depot
23:15:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the purchase list is special, because the vehicle is not built yet, so some variables cannot be accessed
23:15:31  <Wolf01> 'night all
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23:16:18  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there's nothing fundamentally wrong with longer sprites, but it may overlap with other vehicles
23:16:40  <supermop> yeah
23:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there may also be clipping errors
23:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. under bridges, and stuff
23:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause> they míght be less prominent with standing vehicles
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23:26:45  <supermop> hmm
23:27:40  <supermop> is there an easy way in PS to take an area that is grey-ish tinted cyan and make it grey-ish tinted clear alpha?
23:29:34  <V453000> hm
23:29:47  <V453000> I guess easiest is to use the magic wand
23:29:53  <V453000> with the right settings
23:29:58  <chillcore> night all
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23:38:02  <supermop> figured out a way in PS
23:38:50  <supermop> but would be way easier if flamingo added alpha info to areas with transparent materials or had an alpha ground plane
23:39:13  <supermop> which it does, just not in the 7 year old version i am using
23:40:39  <V453000> :d
23:41:58  <V453000> flamingo is rendering engine for rhino?
23:42:47  <samu> woah, this demolish table is complex after all, thx to lock
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23:44:01  <samu> there's too many ways to build a lock
23:45:03  <samu> on a coast, on a river cliff, on a cliff
23:46:02  <samu> the partial parts can be on bare land, on river, on sea, on canal
23:46:55  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: what i think you are seeing with the drag&drop clearing is that the game loops over all tiles you selected, especially all 3 of the lock tiles. on the first tile, it sees the lock, clears it, and leaves the water pieces. on the second and third tile, it doesn't see the lock anymore, because it has been cleared, so it clears the remaining water tiles
23:49:18  <samu> 4*3*4
23:50:07  <samu> wait, i lie, sea can never be on the upper part
23:50:21  <supermop> V453000: its one of the plugins, and the only one i have now
23:50:29  <V453000> right :)
23:51:03  <supermop> it was the 'best' one back when i was in school, i think there are some more advanced ones now, as well as better versions of flamingo
23:51:09  <samu> rivers can never be on the lower part
23:51:22  <V453000> what does it do though? :P plugin is kind of a broad statement :P
23:51:25  <samu> hmm 3*3*3
23:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they can
23:51:39  <samu> they can ?
23:51:42  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the canal may be by you or someone else
23:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the game probably does not handle this case as "table"
23:52:48  <samu> I see
23:53:19  <samu> so I guess better solution is to create a canalcliff?
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23:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> solution for what?
23:55:20  <samu> locks have some issues
23:55:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what that "solves" is that people drag&drop a canal, and then never figure out why the ships are not using it
23:55:40  <supermop> its a renderer
23:56:15  <V453000> I think I read about it somewhere before yeah :)
23:56:17  <samu> they can't go up rivercliffs either
23:56:20  <supermop> bu it also handles lighting, materials, texture mapping, environment plants, separate from rhino itself
23:56:27  <V453000> :)
23:57:26  <samu> another simpler solution could be
23:57:36  <samu> prevent river tiles from being demolished by drag&drop
23:57:59  <samu> but not singleclick demolish
23:58:55  <samu> hmm
23:59:00  <samu> no
23:59:19  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: but "rivercliffs" (they are actually "slopes" in game terminology, cliffs would be vertical drops between edges) have visual blockings

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