Config
Log for #openttd on 1st March 2015:
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01:05:57  <Samu> just finished
01:06:02  <Samu> https://eag5jg.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2phWk2A_mA-VthHGhIuln-OvmE5zH81VQ99308Buuz1AyoJ_-tZ_PG5P1rp680cJlI5PvUMiiAiJuV3rot2LQ5kMRv1dHsbQxdIrGJtV7Ug_8flmCu5XxfwJBKsK5fWGn0OLNv4yfJVMjECfnmCusIRA/canal%20owner%20bits%20table.png?psid=1
01:06:22  <Samu> have yet to check for mistakes/conflicts
01:06:40  <Samu> it's a big image, zoom in
01:09:08  <Samu> found 1 mistake already, :(
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01:16:32  <Samu> https://eag5jg.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pv7gZMaNrAqXzqltg8j8wgU9HcnQxW7OaRnLOYsCbfv6jNWm0SNnZ0iNVfHhg4MFtoVA_XeDrdHWmBriAcRg2nvTwWBPJmJiB5kdT30mVgxIAAV2F5gvafv-8tnPV3eso1oMwx7bgyH1glMwgo6HCSw/canal%20owner%20bits%20table.png?psid=1
01:16:38  <Samu> corrected
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03:30:35  <Flygon> supermop: Running low on Victorians in the Melbourne area. Want a free 32in widescreen CRT?
03:30:59  <supermop> sorry, no thanks
03:31:11  <supermop> not a tv kind of guy
03:31:22  <Flygon> Bugger
03:31:26  <Flygon> Thanks, anyway!
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05:12:25  <supermop> rendering this 7x7 grid of tram parts is really turning my laptop into a space heater
05:23:32  <supermop> 4x4 went by really quick, 6x6 was a bit slow, but 7x7 is taking forever
05:24:37  <supermop> of course adding a bunch of lights behind curved glass inside little boxes  and some glowing surfaaces is probably not helping
05:29:10  <Pokka> :D
05:29:32  <Pokka> btw with the concertina parts just add them to the ends of the vehicles I reckon. half on each.
05:33:12  <supermop> i noticed a sprite rotated the wrong way halfway through through render so had to start over
05:33:33  <supermop> caving in and rendering at 256 instead of 512 px per tile
05:34:12  <supermop> i was rendering at double size then rescaling in PS as it seemed to allow a better quality rayrace
05:34:27  <supermop> trace
05:34:40  <supermop> on the d class trams
05:35:43  <supermop> the ends are the same for D1 and D2, and the center of D1 is the same as the second unit of D2
05:36:15  <supermop> so should i provide separate sprites for D1 or can it just reference those from D2's set of sprites?
05:36:39  <Pokka> if they're the same I only need one lot of sprites
05:36:56  *** Pokka is now known as Pikka
05:36:59  <supermop> im not going to render them separately but i can copy those sprites into a separate d1 folder
05:37:41  <supermop> if that is more helpful than the filesize saved by omitting them
05:37:45  <Pikka> sure, although you don't have to. I can code it with just one set of sprites used by both vehicles. reduce the file size a bit :)
05:39:00  <supermop> thats the only tram where different subclasses share identical parts so i didn't know if a non-standard bit of code was more of a pain than the extra MBs
05:41:05  <supermop> also a pain that the 2nd and 4th cars of the D2 are different lengths unlike the C2 - so it ends up asymetrical and requires 12 more sprites
05:41:25  <Pikka> oh, well
05:41:46  <Pikka> actually any shortened vehicle requires 8 views :)
05:42:08  <Pikka> even if you only render 4 I have to double them up for the different offsets
05:42:16  <supermop> ooff
05:43:26  <supermop> for 180degree symetric segments ive been doing 4 views for running and 8 for loading (assuming that doors only open on platform side)
05:43:49  <supermop> i can duplicate the running views if that helps though
05:44:06  <Pikka> it's all good
05:44:50  <supermop> for end cabs ive been doing 16 views so far - assuming that eventually i'll add taillights on 8 and headlights on 8
05:44:55  <Pikka> I render my shortened vehicles with 8 views, positioned with the front in the same place as the full-length vehicles, because it allows using the same offsets. but I've already worked out offsets for your other trams and hopefully the new ones will be the same size? ;)
05:45:04  <Pikka> cool :)
05:45:30  <supermop> im just centering all of the segments
05:45:36  <supermop> i could do differently
05:46:01  <Pikka> nope, all good. as long as they're consistent :)
05:46:46  <supermop> ok that took 17 min after halving (quartering) the size
05:50:33  <supermop> sort of feel like going to bunnings
05:50:48  <supermop> want a smaller chisel and some yello spray paint
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08:03:05  <andythenorth> o/
08:03:10  <Pikka> eek
08:03:13  <andythenorth> ook
08:04:33  <andythenorth> do the rest of you have ctrl-click for industry types in mini-map?  Or is it just me?
08:05:14  <Pikka> just you, obviously
08:05:24  <Pikka> it works but I've never used it before
08:06:19  <Supercheese> the magick of the ctrl key
08:06:38  * andythenorth is wondering how much thread can be expended on a non-issue
08:06:50  <Pikka> well I usually want to show a couple of different industries so I just disable all then reenable the ones I want
08:07:17  <Supercheese> Yeah, that's the non-ctrl method
08:07:53  <Supercheese> although even with the white blink, single-tile town industries are sometimes still elusive
08:08:27  <andythenorth> town industries are a PITA
08:08:56  <andythenorth> oh eh, I bet they’re using 1x GUI zoom as well
08:09:44  <Supercheese> GUI zoom is pretty new eh
08:10:47  <Alberth> moin
08:11:15  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
08:17:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r27174 /trunk/src (5 files in 5 dirs) (2015-03-01 08:17:14 UTC)
08:17:18  <DorpsGek> -Feature[FS#6236]: Display relative offset changes in the sprite aligner (juzza1).
08:17:28  <andythenorth> :o
08:17:39  <andythenorth> does that mean the numbers are actually useful?
08:18:11  <Alberth> I hope so, but I didn't do much :p
08:19:33  <Alberth> all praise should go to juzza :)
08:20:16  <Alberth> andythenorth:  shall we make a new BB release?
08:20:24  <andythenorth> yes :)
08:20:33  <andythenorth> sorry, I’ve had no time to look at it even
08:20:44  <andythenorth> maybe for GS, we have to release early and often?
08:20:48  <andythenorth> let players find the bugs
08:20:53  <andythenorth> play-testing is time consuming
08:21:14  <Alberth> I tried it, last friday or so, and the new feature of not dropping goals where you work on, works
08:22:36  <Alberth> hmm, maybe I need to push some stuff, let's see :p
08:23:37  <Alberth> oh, I needed the name for the new release, let's do "RC2" ?
08:24:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: ^
08:24:11  <andythenorth> yes
08:24:24  <andythenorth> eh, it’s a day of forum wrongness
08:24:31  * andythenorth wonders about correcting all the wrong
08:24:52  <Alberth> unsubscribe :)
08:27:08  <Alberth> tagging and publishing, how was that again
08:27:29  * andythenorth looks
08:28:11  <andythenorth> do we have a changelog?
08:28:15  * andythenorth looking
08:28:26  <Alberth> I added a 'features' in the readme
08:28:38  <andythenorth> yay
08:28:43  <andythenorth> hg tag RC2
08:28:46  <andythenorth> hg up RC2
08:28:50  <andythenorth> dunno how we do the build
08:29:02  <andythenorth> oh we have Makefile now?
08:29:21  <Alberth> we have that for a long time already :p
08:29:36  <Alberth> not sure whether the bananas thingie works correctly
08:30:07  <andythenorth> one way to find out

08:34:47  <Alberth> bananas doesn't like me :(
08:35:59  <andythenorth> oh
08:36:07  <andythenorth> Busy Bee is on my account for some reason
08:36:09  <andythenorth> that’s stupid
08:36:14  <andythenorth> should be on coop account
08:36:23  <andythenorth> not even sure how that happened
08:36:28  <andythenorth> usually I am logged in as coop
08:36:43  <andythenorth> can it be moved?
08:36:45  <Alberth> pushed rc2
08:37:23  <Alberth> I made the first release, with both of us as author
08:37:48  <Alberth> but something went wrong, apparently
08:39:27  <andythenorth> hmm no musa here
08:39:33  * andythenorth looks how to get musa
08:42:07  <andythenorth> is there a correct way to install random python modules?
08:42:12  * andythenorth has never found one
08:43:46  <andythenorth> my nmlc only works due to luck
08:43:54  <andythenorth> and backups
08:44:07  <andythenorth> I somehow managed to make it work once, and now I fetch the backup when it breaks
08:45:10  <Alberth> add a user directory to PYTHONPATH, and install it there
08:45:30  <andythenorth> ah words I don’t understand yet :D
08:45:38  <Alberth> nmlc is easier though, just leave it all in the project, and make a soft link to the nmlc program
08:46:20  <andythenorth> the ‘problem’ is needing nmlc 0.3.x and 0.4.x
08:46:42  <andythenorth> although I think I fixed that now
08:46:55  <Alberth> you can change the name while making a softlink :)
08:47:23  * andythenorth ponders
08:47:39  <andythenorth> I treat my python environments as disposable, I think that’s my problem here
08:47:40  <Alberth> ln -s /some/devzone/nml_trunk/nmlc   nmlc_trunk
08:47:50  <andythenorth> so everything that can be got with pip install is fine
08:48:00  <andythenorth> but anything that needs configuration, I forget what I did
08:48:29  * andythenorth wonders if we can pip install musa and nml
08:48:30  <Alberth> I make a script or Makefile to record that stuff :p
08:48:46  * andythenorth considers sh make_my_python_work
08:49:00  <andythenorth> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/nml/0.2.4
08:49:16  <Alberth> if you need more than one configuration, it's quite messy, often
08:49:26  <andythenorth> yes
08:49:34  <andythenorth> currently I have 5
08:49:43  <andythenorth> hmm https://pypi.python.org/pypi/musa/3.4.1
08:50:17  <andythenorth> we are missing someone who likes packaging :D
08:52:52  <Pikka> http://pikkarail.com/openttd/among-the-gum-trees/
08:53:15  <supermop> hmm, keep rendering, make bucatini, or go to a bar?
08:53:27  <Pikka> bar, obv
08:53:47  <supermop> dont feel like eating bucatini but its all i have on hand
08:54:06  <andythenorth> Pikka: is that your standard Brisbane type house?
08:54:42  <Pikka> maybe!
08:54:44  <supermop> looks swampy
08:54:53  <supermop> eaves should overhang more though?
08:55:26  <Pikka> you wouldn't be able to see the sides at all if the eaves were much bigger :)
08:55:27  <supermop> looks good
08:55:44  <Terkhen> good morning
08:55:49  <supermop> what about those shade things hanging on veranda/porch
08:55:50  <Pikka> it's a start, anyway...
08:55:52  <andythenorth> lo Terkhen
08:55:52  <Alberth> good morning Terkhen
08:55:56  <Pikka> good morning Terkhen
08:56:01  * andythenorth considers Pineapple FIRS economy
08:56:05  <supermop> is thing in back rainwater tank?
08:56:10  <andythenorth> if you could just quicly render all the industry sprites
08:56:11  <Pikka> si
08:56:22  <Pikka> I can render them very quickly andy
08:56:30  <Pikka> you just have to model and texture them :)
08:56:36  <andythenorth> this is problem
08:56:40  <andythenorth> I am busy see
08:56:48  <Alberth> s/see/bee/
08:56:48  <andythenorth> helping explain to child why you can’t convert buses
08:56:59  <andythenorth> also he has transfer-leg profit issues
08:57:35  <Alberth> oh dear, so young, and having money trouble arleady
08:57:48  <supermop> andy if you want basic shapes similar to what you have now, i can model some and export as meshes for Pikka to render
08:57:49  <andythenorth> he has built a route with about 7 transfer steps in it
08:58:03  <andythenorth> including needlessly putting a train portage across a small peninsual
08:58:07  <andythenorth> peninsula *
08:58:19  <Alberth> no doubt it looks pretty
08:58:32  <andythenorth> toyland
08:58:36  <andythenorth> original base set
08:58:41  <andythenorth> draw your own conclusion
08:59:51  <andythenorth> so can I ln musa.py from virtualenv/bin?
08:59:58  <andythenorth> or does it go in site-packages
09:00:11  <Alberth> I have been playing toyland a lot in my youth :)
09:00:16  <Alberth> you can just link it
09:00:45  <Alberth> python imports packages from the directory containing the program
09:01:53  <andythenorth> now it needs a config file
09:02:02  * andythenorth reads docs
09:02:07  <Alberth> 'make' provides one
09:02:18  <andythenorth> oh
09:02:21  <andythenorth> I tried ‘make bananas’
09:02:28  <andythenorth> print "reading configuration file %s..." % options.config
09:02:32  <andythenorth> oh it’s python 2
09:02:34  <andythenorth> oops
09:03:47  <Supercheese> make bananas -> you'll need quite the ripening time
09:05:38  <Alberth> that's why you first need to install musa :p
09:06:28  <Supercheese> and apparently you need ethylene gas too, hmm
09:06:46  <Supercheese> they should have mentioned that in chemistry class, it would have been more interesting
09:07:10  <Supercheese> "Ethylene is the simplest alkene, and it is used to ripen bananas"
09:08:22  <andythenorth> can’t get a working musa
09:08:31  <andythenorth> might return to that later
09:08:37  <andythenorth> ‘problems with python packaging'
09:08:47  <Alberth> :(
09:08:50  <Alberth> ok
09:09:00  <andythenorth> standard for me
09:09:16  <Supercheese> I thought pythons were carnivorous, but it seems to have eaten your bananas
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09:10:24  <andythenorth> my python is rejecting bananas
09:10:33  <andythenorth> etc
09:13:07  <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbft3mxmv
09:13:13  <andythenorth> I need to declare an encoding?
09:14:01  <andythenorth> line 2 is empty
09:15:24  <andythenorth> hmm
09:15:41  <andythenorth> dunno
09:16:00  <andythenorth> “python2.7 musa.py —version” works in the musa repo I have checked out
09:16:08  <andythenorth> but not when linked from Busy Bee
09:16:32  <andythenorth> if I put it in the virtualenv bin dir it has insufficient permissions
09:17:12  <Alberth> yes, "python bla.py" runs from whereever you start the program, and that's thus where your imports are
09:17:20  <Alberth> or rather, should be
09:17:39  <Alberth> what's  'python' at your system?
09:17:56  <Alberth> ie the first line of musa.py uses that
09:18:09  <andythenorth> depends on the active virtualenv
09:18:34  <andythenorth> I’ll change the shebang in musa
09:18:48  <Alberth> that's one option :)
09:19:25  <andythenorth> still need to put musa in the path somehow
09:19:43  * andythenorth has to go do children things
09:19:46  <andythenorth> bbl
09:19:57  <andythenorth> :|
09:20:05  <Alberth> PATH=$PATH:/some/where/musa_dir
09:22:42  <andythenorth> to make this work for newgrfs, I had a PATH in Makefile.config iirc
09:23:38  <Alberth> I have a  $HOME/bin directory where I add my user scripts
09:24:03  <Alberth> and in the login startup script, I add that directory to my path
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09:38:29  <andythenorth> no setup.py for musa
09:38:38  * andythenorth was wondering about just installing it as a package
09:39:00  <andythenorth> the old-fashioned way :P
09:43:18  * andythenorth tries directly uploading BB to bananas
09:43:24  <andythenorth> bananas won’t accept the .tar
09:43:44  <andythenorth> Unknown file in pack: ._license.txt
09:44:08  <andythenorth> software development: all joy, no fun
09:45:43  * andythenorth admits defeat
09:45:57  <andythenorth> won’t accept a zip either
09:46:04  <andythenorth> zip doesn’t have _license.txt in it
09:46:23  <andythenorth> :x
09:46:28  <andythenorth> bbl :)
09:46:29  <SpComb> you wouldn't upload unlicensed code, would you
09:46:35  <SpComb> it's like stealing a car
09:46:44  <andythenorth> eh, I think you’re missing the point
09:47:03  <andythenorth> or I am
09:47:05  <andythenorth> one of us anyway
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10:01:37  <Wolf01> hi o/
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10:11:17  <Alberth> moin
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10:51:24  <Alberth> hai
10:51:47  <Alberth> I saw you did FS#6237 already, nice
10:56:04  <frosch123> moin
10:56:28  <frosch123> yes, though i wonder whether replacing the _cur_dpi backups with some conistructor/destructor magic
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11:00:00  <Alberth> which would imply your object would need a set of {} brackets. Not so nice imho
11:01:59  <Alberth> I can imagine a  DrawLimitArea da; da.SetLimit(xpos, ypos, xsize, ysize); /* draw stuff */    da.ResetLimit();
11:02:07  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p1tainnyy <- i mean something like that
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11:03:12  <frosch123> possibly derived from Backup<DrawPixelInfo>
11:03:30  <frosch123> though Backup enforced explicit calls to Restore
11:03:42  <frosch123> and only uses the destructor in case of errors
11:04:09  <Alberth> I like making things explicit, it's hard to see "}" drops the limit
11:05:06  <Alberth> especially if you fold it in something harmless like a 'then'   if (...) { BackUp...  ;  ... ; ... ; }
11:08:36  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/paezrhq73 <- so, essentially that
11:09:17  <frosch123> maybe i missed a * or & somewhere :)
11:11:16  <Alberth> pretty much, although I would expect some _dpi  global
11:11:58  <Alberth> oh it's in the constructor, right
11:12:38  <Alberth> should work
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12:39:21  <andythenorth> Alberth: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gs/
12:39:24  <andythenorth> RC2
12:39:33  <Alberth> \o/
12:39:40  <andythenorth> it’s still on the wrong account
12:39:45  <andythenorth> should move it to coop
12:39:47  <andythenorth> dunno how
12:40:07  <Alberth> "M" ?
12:40:21  <Alberth> ah well :)
12:40:22  <andythenorth> I modified the Makefile to make it work
12:40:30  <andythenorth> and there was only one way to check it worked :P
12:40:35  <andythenorth> no dry run
12:41:11  <Alberth> musa does have that, but again it needs makefile editing :)
12:41:29  <Alberth> publishing needs more love
12:41:59  <Alberth> you want to make a post, or should I?
12:42:05  <andythenorth> you
12:42:08  <Alberth> k
12:42:08  * andythenorth is hanging out washing
12:42:16  <andythenorth> sorry, I’m not much help on BB :P
12:42:23  <Alberth> concurrent processing :)
12:42:52  <frosch123> andythenorth: it shows only the first account, no matter what
12:42:52  <Alberth> I am not helping much on firs, iron horse, road hog
12:43:37  <andythenorth> frosch123: is there some way to move them?  Edit MySQL or something?
12:43:46  <andythenorth> HEQS was moved to coop account years ago iirc
12:44:03  <frosch123> maybe if you change the sorting in bananas.ini
12:44:37  <andythenorth> oh maybe we’re talking at cross purposes
12:44:52  <andythenorth> you’re speaking wrt musa?
12:45:00  <frosch123> yes
12:45:04  <frosch123> are you not using musa?
12:45:32  <andythenorth> yes, but I originally uploaded BB to bananas on my andythenorth account
12:45:40  <andythenorth> for reasons I don’t understand, probably just a mistake
12:45:56  <andythenorth> everything else is on the openttdcoop account
12:46:21  <Alberth> I did that
12:46:29  <Alberth> as you can see in bananas.ini
12:47:40  <andythenorth> where?
12:47:42  * andythenorth looking
12:58:51  <Alberth> posted http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1140822#p1140822
12:58:51  <andythenorth> so what am I missing?
12:58:59  <andythenorth> musa asks for auth creds when it runs
12:59:11  <andythenorth> so I put in my account for RC2 because that’s where BB is already
12:59:25  <andythenorth> does bananas.ini try and provide the account?
12:59:37  <frosch123> bananas.ini contains a list of accounts, which may update
12:59:44  <frosch123> you can use any account of those
12:59:53  <frosch123> but the website will only show one
13:00:01  <frosch123> no idea which, maybe the fist in the list in bananas.ini
13:00:08  <frosch123> maybe it updates when uploading a new version
13:00:29  <frosch123> but why do you even care what the website shows? :p
13:01:21  *** shadowalker is now known as shadowalkerAFK
13:02:02  <Alberth> it didn't like me, for some reason
13:03:25  <Alberth> so we wondered who owns BB :)
13:03:30  <andythenorth> can bananas content be uploaded via more than one account? :o
13:03:45  <andythenorth> I assumed it was tied to a specific account
13:04:17  <Alberth> in that case it would be buggy, as you didn't upload the first release :p
13:04:37  <andythenorth> hmm
13:05:03  <andythenorth> oh, so that’s why it’s linked to my account?  Because of your musa upload of RC1?
13:05:03  <Alberth> but it's an option :)
13:05:07  <andythenorth> I thought I’d done a bad
13:05:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: what do you think the user list in bananas.ini is for?
13:05:20  <andythenorth> dunno, trying to find out :)
13:05:29  <andythenorth> Alberth: so how did you get my password?
13:05:38  <andythenorth> or is it just ‘auth’
13:05:40  <Alberth> haha :D
13:05:45  <andythenorth> rather than specific user auth
13:05:55  * andythenorth wonders how bananas user model works :P
13:05:58  <planetmaker> o/
13:06:07  <Alberth> moin planetmaker
13:06:30  <andythenorth> so it doesn’t matter that it’s on my account, it’s not ‘lost’ if I’m not around?
13:06:34  <planetmaker> andythenorth, bananas.ini gives a list of applicable users. You give on upload your own user + pw for authentication against bananas. It's independent
13:06:35  <andythenorth> other people can still maintain BB?
13:06:41  <planetmaker> it's just a list of users who may update later
13:06:58  <planetmaker> users not in the list in bananas.ini may never update the content (unless added in a later bananas.ini)
13:06:59  <Alberth> planetmaker: yep, that's the theory
13:07:08  <Alberth> but it didn't like me
13:07:27  <planetmaker> did you do something bad? ;)
13:07:41  <Alberth> while I uploaded the first release
13:08:33  <Alberth> perhaps I should have made more openttd patches?
13:08:48  <Alberth> don't know if bananas counts those :p
13:09:00  <andythenorth> so do Bananas content item have n owners?
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13:09:29  <Alberth> are there other items with more than one owner?
13:09:34  <frosch123> Alberth: maybe it is case sensitive
13:10:06  <frosch123> is your account lowercase?
13:10:07  * andythenorth has that bananas VM somewhere
13:10:15  <andythenorth> we need to improve Bananas soon anyway :P
13:10:21  <andythenorth> could we do it by April 1?
13:10:24  <Alberth> soon(tm)
13:10:30  <frosch123> the vm is older than musa :p
13:10:39  <andythenorth> hmm
13:10:45  <andythenorth> well what do we need to improve?
13:10:56  <andythenorth> my main goal was to provide a html page for each item
13:11:10  <Alberth> frosch123: Uppercase "A"
13:11:19  <frosch123> Alberth: bananas.ini has lowercase
13:11:26  <frosch123> so, is that the problem?
13:11:43  <Alberth> could be, we'll find out on the next release :)
13:12:00  <andythenorth> so what can I do to ‘fix’ the Makefile?
13:12:09  <Alberth> although you wonder why I could upload the first time then
13:12:16  <SpComb> is this "subsidies" thing in the game some new GoalScripts feature? :P
13:12:30  <frosch123> Alberth: because it was the first time?
13:12:42  <frosch123> basically you uploaded with not granting you the right to update
13:12:54  <andythenorth> Makefile diff
13:12:55  <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjhkexhdg
13:13:09  <frosch123> but, well, musad should probably check whether the accounts actually exist
13:13:17  <andythenorth> basically I dumped musa into BusyBee dir, that’s not essential, but avoided an ugly path :P
13:13:34  <andythenorth> I can’t find a way to install musa as a python module / package
13:13:42  <Alberth> quite possible, but then it either has "alberth" and "Alberth" accounts, or something along the way dropped the lower case after the login check
13:13:51  <andythenorth> I tried giving it an __init__.py and putting it in bin or site-packages
13:14:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: stop installing stuff
13:14:08  <frosch123> just symlink them from /usr/local/bin
13:14:29  <andythenorth> how will python find it as a package from there?
13:14:36  <andythenorth> that’s not in the path?
13:14:52  <Alberth> python uses the directory of the program as import directory
13:15:10  <andythenorth> am I conflating package and program?
13:15:52  <Alberth> for nml, "nmlc" is program, and  "nml/" is package (directory)
13:16:24  <Alberth> since nmlc is right next to "nml" directory, it can "from nml import stuff"
13:17:00  <andythenorth> so I don’t need musa to be available as a python package? It’s just a program on my box?
13:18:04  <Alberth> it imports several .py files directly, it seems
13:18:27  * andythenorth looks up how to make symlinks
13:18:28  <Alberth> just keep the entire directory
13:18:37  <juzza1> https://wiki.openttd.org/Strings#Lifecycle the last part is still valid? i.e. delete all the translated strings manually if the string is changed in english.txt
13:18:56  <frosch123> wt3 does that as well
13:18:57  <Alberth> cd /usr/local/bin ; ln -s /path/to/musa/musa.py    .
13:19:09  <frosch123> anyway, everything on strings on the wiki is old stuff
13:19:15  <planetmaker> frosch123, can bananas.ini remove people again from bananas access?
13:19:28  <frosch123> planetmaker: no idea, i did not write it
13:19:33  <frosch123> and it was most likely not tested
13:19:48  <planetmaker> juzza1, yes-ish. Depends a bit whether the meaning changes or it's just a typo fix or amendment
13:20:07  <planetmaker> juzza1, if you want to force a new translation (thus make it obvious), then remove the translations. In a separate commit
13:20:40  <juzza1> I'm amending "Ctrl+click to do this and that"
13:20:40  <frosch123> juzza1: but don't even consider doing that, unless you know how to use "sed" or similar tools :p
13:21:20  <andythenorth> ok, I’ve linked musa, that works
13:21:47  <planetmaker> juzza1, not sure that amending the ctrl+click information warrants to invalidate translations as that only is an amendment
13:21:59  <andythenorth> no makefile changes needed
13:22:15  <planetmaker> juzza1, in that case imho it's sufficient if translators see them in the category of changed strings. The current translation isn't wrong in that case. Just not complete
13:22:21  <Alberth> andythenorth: great
13:23:02  <planetmaker> juzza1, but indeed removing strings from translations is two console commands with grep and sed :)
13:23:04  <andythenorth> maybe one day I’ll understand computers
13:23:05  <Alberth> we'll understand how to publish a script eventually :p
13:23:21  <juzza1> planetmaker: ok
13:23:37  <juzza1> and yes, i did it with sed :P
13:23:40  * andythenorth wonders if he could improve musa docs
13:23:45  <andythenorth> not sure how
13:24:20  <Alberth> your time is better spent on a nicer web thingie, probably
13:24:51  <andythenorth> my world contains a lot of python files, almost none of which can be called directly
13:25:04  <andythenorth> so I set about musa.py all wrong:P
13:25:52  <Alberth> directly callable scripts are very nice, you may want to consider adding more in your world
13:32:21  <andythenorth> well, it tends to cause issues with shebangs
13:32:30  <planetmaker> version RC2M, eh?
13:32:32  <andythenorth> unless you have something like buildout that can set the shebang
13:32:43  <andythenorth> also, mostly, modules modules modules :)
13:32:46  <planetmaker> the shebang is set in the script?
13:33:04  <andythenorth> conventionally
13:33:16  <andythenorth> is there a sys arg method?
13:33:30  <planetmaker> #! /usr/bin/env python3
13:33:36  <planetmaker> or something like that is a nice shebang
13:33:38  <andythenorth> shebang
13:33:44  <andythenorth> useless for isolation
13:34:17  <andythenorth> :)
13:34:59  <andythenorth> which python 3 is that? :P
13:35:19  <andythenorth> although there is a hideous port select utility on OS X that let’s you set current python
13:35:53  <planetmaker> python should always be python2. And python3 is... well... python3. Isn't that the case with your ports?
13:36:11  <planetmaker> same broken-ness as with linux arch then :P
13:36:39  <Alberth> bdfl sees "python" as "the python interpreter" which ever version :p
13:37:13  <Alberth> so it may be wise to specifically set a version if required
13:38:02  <andythenorth> he
13:38:25  <andythenorth> for work I need python 2.4, 2.6 and 2.7
13:38:34  <andythenorth> for newgrfs I need 3.2, 3.4, and 2.7 and 2.6
13:38:40  <andythenorth> so eh :)
13:40:12  <Alberth> just buy 5 computers :p
13:41:19  <andythenorth> got seriously close to using vagrant :P
13:41:27  <andythenorth> virtualbox for each project
13:41:31  <andythenorth> totally portable :P
13:41:35  <Alberth> but 2.6 -> 2.7  and  3.2 -> 3.4  should be feasible quite easily ?
13:41:55  <andythenorth> ish yes
13:42:19  <andythenorth> you have 3.4 though, and I rely on you to repro my current bugs :P
13:42:23  <andythenorth> whereas devzone has 3.2
13:42:45  <andythenorth> and the 2.6 stuff would need a full production QA run to be moved to 2.7, and the production environment redeployed
13:42:52  <andythenorth> 2.4 is best not mentioned :(
13:43:45  <Alberth> I didn't, for exactly that reason :p
13:44:01  <andythenorth> every package you want to use
.doesn’t exist :(
13:44:05  <andythenorth> it’s like crippleware
13:44:33  <Alberth> indeed, open source tends to move very fast to the newest stuff
13:44:57  <planetmaker> well, depends on which / how it is used
13:45:07  <planetmaker> distros don't exactly update the python version they ship
13:45:19  <planetmaker> thus yes, 3.2 is still debian current. As is 2.7
13:45:39  <andythenorth> there tends to be conservatism around databases and stuff which has to be zero defect
13:45:44  <andythenorth> “let’s stick with the known bugs"
13:46:05  <planetmaker> makes sense, if your source of revenue depends on it :)
13:46:30  <andythenorth> I dunno
13:46:38  <andythenorth> playing it safe tends to cause a lot of trouble in the long run
13:46:42  <andythenorth> to quote Banksy
13:46:59  <planetmaker> well, the point with production systems is: you want them running and you need to make sure they're safe
13:46:59  * andythenorth is stuck with a large app in python 2.4, which is dead :P
13:47:11  <planetmaker> any single change in version of one of the software pieces used may change that
13:47:25  <planetmaker> thus... setup the system, let it run for a few years safe security backports
13:47:39  <planetmaker> then setup new system with newer stuff, test, and switch
13:48:15  <planetmaker> different probably for desktop... but then... yes, I don't want to re-install my workplace desktop too often either. It also takes time
13:49:18  <andythenorth> so should we update bananas for April?
13:49:34  <planetmaker> please do :)
13:50:06  <planetmaker> if you ask TrueBrain nicely he might even give you a VM clone of bananas with a DB copy and have you experiment till it runs :)
13:50:18  <planetmaker> or ... there used to be a VM ... wasn't there, frosch123 ?
13:51:12  <andythenorth> I have one
13:51:34  <planetmaker> there might have been the issue that it integrates with the rest of openttd web frontend
13:52:09  <planetmaker> but granted... that can possibly be separated
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13:54:04  <TrueBrain> [14:49] <andythenorth> virtualbox for each project <- use virtualenv, and yo dont need a vm for each project ;)
13:54:27  <andythenorth> exactly
13:54:42  <andythenorth> also isolated pythons which can be rebuilt on demand
13:54:49  <TrueBrain> [14:57] <andythenorth> so should we update bananas for April? <- why April, and what update?
13:54:52  <andythenorth> but you do have to fight setuptools 6 times :(
13:55:03  <andythenorth> April 1 is traditional release date?
13:55:18  <TrueBrain> I run Python2.7, Python 2.6 and PyPy 2.5 in different virtualenvs, all isolated :D Main system doesn't even have Python running
13:55:24  <TrueBrain> I love that shit :)
13:55:34  <andythenorth> I love it now I have got it written down and repeatable :P
13:55:38  <andythenorth> I didn’t love learning it
13:56:00  <andythenorth> Bananas update: I have only the idea of a html page for each item, showing the description etc
13:56:02  <TrueBrain> anyway, I have no clue what you guys talk about :)
13:56:05  <andythenorth> like a web preview
13:56:10  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: there inded is a dev VM, which should work fine
13:56:32  <TrueBrain> a DB copy would be impropable to give :P
13:56:53  <TrueBrain> but it cant be hard to fill the dev VM with dummy data ofc :)
13:57:19  <planetmaker> it would be nice to be able to give that to andy :)
13:57:26  <TrueBrain> ah; well, feel free to improve BaNaNaS :)
13:57:27  <andythenorth> and anyone else who wants to improve it

13:57:33  * andythenorth wonders about a reskin some time
13:57:39  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: give what? Bit vague after my lines :D
13:57:51  <Alberth> DB scheme?
13:57:57  <TrueBrain> should be in the VM
13:57:59  <Alberth> or, what dies if you change that?
13:58:09  <TrueBrain> I at least assume frosch did a proper job there; I have no reason to doubt him :D
13:58:16  <andythenorth> could we have a populate script? (first run, dummy data)
13:58:27  <planetmaker> the DB scheme with at least dummy DB, access to it, so that he can stab at it till it squeaks back
13:58:44  <TrueBrain> the VM, as far as I understood, is a working version of BaNaNaS
13:58:48  <TrueBrain> so .. that should be in there
13:58:59  <TrueBrain> I doubt otherwise the dev VM would be useful :D
13:59:12  <TrueBrain> so to me it seems that information is already supplied, wrapped in a nice VM :D
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13:59:42  <TrueBrain> and as BaNaNaS is build on Django, any DB changes should be trivial to apply to live system :)
14:00:00  <TrueBrain> django-admin syncdb *waits* :D
14:00:14  <TrueBrain> so knock yourself out with it, and let us know any patches you cook up
14:00:38  <planetmaker> I think the idea is: python3 instead of 2 :P
14:00:47  <TrueBrain> that is a very bad idea :)
14:00:53  <TrueBrain> for so many reasons, but most importantly: django :)
14:00:55  <Wolf01> andythenorth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m01_wVwmR6s
14:01:10  <Wolf01> (not mine)
14:01:13  <TrueBrain> and also, very few reasons to upgrade to Python 3 atm :)
14:01:29  <TrueBrain> (and then I talk about BaNaNaS, not musa btw :P)
14:01:37  <TrueBrain> musa would be nice if it also ran under Python3 ofc :)
14:01:47  <planetmaker> actually the reasons become more to also use py3
14:02:06  <TrueBrain> and for a server-side only thing that is not really useful
14:02:13  <TrueBrain> client-side stuff, I totally agree :)
14:02:22  <TrueBrain> so I wonder if we are all talking about the same thing here :)
14:03:07  <TrueBrain> so lets rewind, and let me ask: what piece of software do you want to give Python3 support?
14:06:50  <andythenorth> afaik, none of the big Python web frameworks can port to Python 3 yet
14:06:55  <TrueBrain> nope
14:07:01  <andythenorth> too many deps stuck on python 2
14:07:04  <TrueBrain> so making BaNaNaS Py3 compatible is silly atm :D
14:07:32  <andythenorth> we are going to try moving a small web app to python 3 in 2016
14:07:36  <andythenorth> at work
14:07:52  <andythenorth> some stuff in python 3.4 makes it look slightly more possible
14:08:32  <TrueBrain> Py3 is much nicer than Py2
14:08:39  <TrueBrain> just too bad so many libs depend on CPython2 ..
14:09:05  <TrueBrain> and I mention CPython explicitly, because working with PyPy can also be troublesome :D
14:09:26  <TrueBrain> but so what does planetmaker want to port to Py3? (and why?, curious etc :D)
14:11:37  <planetmaker> oh, I thought that's what andy tried to suggest when saying rewrite as he port(ed) everything to py3. A mis-understanding on my part
14:11:59  <TrueBrain> ah :)
14:12:12  <TrueBrain> server-side stuff will be a while before they can be ported to Py3, sadly
14:12:25  <TrueBrain> and Py3 is already at version .. what, 3.4?
14:12:32  <TrueBrain> I mean ... slow moving shit there :(
14:12:55  <planetmaker> I also wasn't aware that things look so gloomy wrt the big frameworks and py3
14:13:08  <TrueBrain> in general, I find very few projects running Py3 :(
14:13:29  <planetmaker> yeah, well.
14:14:26  <frosch123> planetmaker: remember when devzone migrated to psql? :p
14:14:42  <TrueBrain> anyway, andythenorth, the dev vm frosch made should be enough to work on anything BaNaNaS related, as far as I understood
14:14:45  <andythenorth> k
14:14:51  <andythenorth> I don’t even know how to start bananas
14:14:52  <TrueBrain> if you need anything else/more, just poke me, and we will see what I can fix up for you :)
14:14:55  <andythenorth> thanks :)
14:15:02  <andythenorth> not today, today is lego + kids day
14:15:07  <TrueBrain> hmm .. lega ...
14:15:07  <frosch123> it's already running in the vm
14:15:09  <TrueBrain> lego
14:15:11  <TrueBrain> typing is hard :P
14:15:25  <frosch123> but well, the vm is from before musa
14:15:27  <andythenorth> has anyone else got any bananas (website) ideas?
14:15:42  * andythenorth ponders reskinning it for amusement
14:15:52  <frosch123> iirc the vm used psql, so no idea whether musad will actually work there
14:16:00  <planetmaker> frosch123, I do :)
14:16:15  * andythenorth could apply Bootstrap styles, as http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
14:16:35  <TrueBrain> might be nice to keep everything in the same style
14:17:01  <TrueBrain> but I might be biased :D I hate that so many websites look like Bootstrap these days ..
14:17:02  <andythenorth> there’s no real need to change
14:17:06  <TrueBrain> it is like Frontpage all over again :P
14:17:13  <andythenorth> Bootstrap can be made not like Bootstrap
14:17:15  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you could - however - be creative and suggest a new style for the whole web presence ;)
14:17:27  <planetmaker> suggest means, implementing, of course :P
14:17:29  <TrueBrain> the current design is from 2008 I believe
14:17:38  <TrueBrain> a total redesign is suggestable ;) :D
14:18:04  <andythenorth> not by April 1
14:18:05  <andythenorth> but yeah
14:18:11  <planetmaker> we could hire V453000 for some design elements. But he's been lagging with supplying the promised ones to #openttdcoop :P
14:18:19  <TrueBrain> no, that would take a bit longer ;)
14:18:30  <TrueBrain> hire suggests paying .. :P
14:18:39  <planetmaker> we pay with fame ;)
14:18:52  <TrueBrain> that is not "hire", that is "volunteering" :P
14:18:54  <TrueBrain> just saying :D
14:18:55  <andythenorth> how is OpenTTD website stuff deployed?
14:18:56  <frosch123> V is paid in beer
14:18:58  <andythenorth> is it on a tag?
14:19:04  <andythenorth> or is it just manual update to rev?
14:19:06  <planetmaker> true. beer
14:19:07  <TrueBrain> svn update
14:19:08  <TrueBrain> :D
14:19:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: you have a vm with the complete website :p
14:19:20  <andythenorth> I know
14:19:29  <andythenorth> I haven’t looked in it though
14:19:33  <TrueBrain> we used to run test and live, but it turned out the release cycles were so close together
14:19:35  <TrueBrain> there was no use :P
14:19:42  <andythenorth> is there any staging environment
14:19:43  <andythenorth> ?
14:19:47  <TrueBrain> not anymore
14:19:59  <TrueBrain> took more effort to maintain the test env than anything else :P
14:20:07  <TrueBrain> (we are not mission critical etc)
14:20:13  <planetmaker> hm
14:20:14  <TrueBrain> but then again, there hasnt been any real work on it either
14:20:30  <TrueBrain> when there is some real work, which needs reviewing by others, we can dust off the test env
14:20:33  <TrueBrain> shouldnt be a real issue
14:20:54  <TrueBrain> I think test-www is only not routed .. but is still online etc :P
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14:22:43  <Samu> hi
14:23:23  <andythenorth> I can probably open a port in my router to show people local changes
14:23:29  <andythenorth> staging is useful for getting an opinion
14:23:49  <TrueBrain> yeah; like I said, we can always start it up if you want to
14:23:51  <TrueBrain> not a real issue
14:24:30  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, that's why I suggested access to andy on some test VM. Easier to communicate. And possibly collaborate on that
14:24:41  <planetmaker> test VM as hosted on our server
14:24:41  <TrueBrain> lets get there when we get there, tbh
14:25:00  <frosch123> planetmaker: we already have a test vm
14:25:02  <TrueBrain> he can start on his own VM; we can always launch a test VM on the server when he has results to show
14:25:19  <frosch123> there is litterally nothing that prevents doing bananas website development
14:25:26  <andythenorth> except lego
14:25:28  <planetmaker> kk
14:25:32  <andythenorth> and a 5 year old
14:25:32  <frosch123> it just needs someone to stop talking and start working :p
14:25:35  <andythenorth> and a 3 year old
14:25:41  <TrueBrain> lol @ frosch :D
14:25:45  <planetmaker> :P
14:25:46  <andythenorth> two poos cleaned up since we started talking :P
14:25:49  <andythenorth> you have no idea
14:26:01  <TrueBrain> and seriously, if you start working on it, and have something to show, just poke me and we arrange something
14:26:17  <TrueBrain> it takes relative little effort to setup the test env
14:26:38  <andythenorth> is there any project tracker for the website?
14:26:48  <TrueBrain> in what sense/way?
14:26:50  <andythenorth> or should I just randomly work on stuff?
14:26:53  <andythenorth> devzone project
14:27:05  <frosch123> there is a project an fs and a project on devzone
14:27:07  <TrueBrain> not much more clear :D
14:27:15  <TrueBrain> but yeah, bugs.openttd.org has a Website category
14:27:29  <TrueBrain> not of a lot of use, but .. its there :P
14:27:30  <frosch123> https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?project=4&do=index&switch=1
14:28:08  <frosch123> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-website
14:30:02  <frosch123> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-testenv <- that's the old vm
14:30:30  <frosch123> hmm, repository is empty though :p
14:30:47  <TrueBrain> that is just hateful :P
14:31:06  <planetmaker> hm...
14:31:09  <frosch123> either it got lost on some devzone migration
14:31:12  <frosch123> or i never pushed :p
14:31:53  <planetmaker> I *think* the latter. Due to safety concerns
14:32:06  * andythenorth not so good at Latin: “Ensete ventricosum"
14:32:15  <planetmaker> banana ;)
14:32:20  <TrueBrain> .....
14:32:31  <TrueBrain> really? :P
14:32:53  <frosch123> hmm, maybe musa was already around
14:33:11  <frosch123> no other reason to pick such name otherwise :p
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14:39:18  <planetmaker> frosch123, definitely, in no backup however old it is, there is a commit in the openttd-testdev repository
14:40:02  <planetmaker> at least for what we still have. We've snapshots back to August 2013 of the repos
14:41:49  <frosch123> yup, my repo has 2 commits, but no push location
14:43:23  <planetmaker> neither of those two projects is set as public. So... should rather be safe, I think
14:43:55  <frosch123> was more a rhodecode issue back then or something
14:45:04  <planetmaker> yeah, just looking there
14:45:15  <Samu> hi
14:46:01  <Samu> here's the schematics for canal ownership: https://eag5jg.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pxAxqMQ1TyZ4Qgq0SsEQgyNktHiQtFSZSTOWeTGWj-7QO1wbNrRSh1oIn_iabAgtWY8PKOorF0lLcr0ErjjLGhnWcN6V-MvqSKYI1ISubMDUzucZTX5eeUGbakLeuActLTuNHqYoEPjEcrc5S93FP8A/canal%20owner%20bits%20table.png?psid=1
14:46:04  <planetmaker> but I can set projects there to private, too
14:46:20  <Samu> now i can start asking questions how to code :)
14:46:51  <planetmaker> thus... can you - without login - see them now, both openttd-website as well as openttd-testenv?
14:47:23  <planetmaker> I can't, but ... :)
14:48:46  <frosch123> both give my a login prompt :)
14:49:13  <planetmaker> do you have a rhodecode one?
14:49:34  <planetmaker> hm, yes :P
14:49:43  <frosch123> pushed
14:49:58  <Samu> locks waterclass is canal or river right?
14:50:46  <planetmaker> ok... so adding andy to the project people there?
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15:13:12  <andythenorth> Pokka o/
15:19:41  <supermop> hey is it better to organize sprites as Tram / Class / Segment / running or loading / livery or some other hierarchy?
15:24:28  <planetmaker> supermop, whatever suits you, really
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15:39:32  <supermop> ok
15:39:39  <supermop> i should get to bed
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16:33:26  <Samu> uhmm...
16:34:43  <Samu> I'm going to create a topic
16:38:58  <Samu> going to concentrate all my ideas in one place, one topic
16:42:02  <Samu> which objects can be built on water?
16:42:09  <Samu> Class A tile type
16:42:50  <Samu> can't think of any
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16:48:04  <Samu> oops i dropped
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17:46:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27175 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2015-03-01 17:46:04 UTC)
17:46:14  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:15  <DorpsGek> catalan - 14 changes by arnau
17:46:16  <DorpsGek> italian - 4 changes by lorenzodv
17:46:17  <DorpsGek> korean - 3 changes by telk5093
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18:28:44  <Samu> so here's my gigantic topic
18:28:47  <Samu> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=72691&p=1143661#p1143661
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18:29:12  <Samu> anyone cares to look?
18:37:56  <Alberth> so your unused bit is not unused at all, for you :)
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18:38:06  <Samu> yeah
18:38:23  <Alberth> which means the reported bug is not a bug, but the first step in your patch
18:39:10  <Alberth> ie you should redefine the bits as being used, and thus fix the demolishing that happens in trunk
18:39:37  <Alberth> (ie what you did in your patch)
18:40:40  <Alberth> except you didn't update the documentation, probably
18:41:08  <Alberth> also, you need a place to store your changes in the code somewhere
18:41:38  <Alberth> although for now, it could be at your machine
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19:00:16  <Samu> i'm storing in OneDrive
19:00:21  <Samu> those patch-files
19:01:29  <Samu> synced to my computer
19:01:51  <Samu> "and thus fix the demolishing that happens in trunk", what do you mean with this?
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19:03:01  <Alberth> in trunk, the bits are not used, and can get any value they like
19:03:24  <Alberth> in your patch, you have given them meaning, so you care about the value of the bits
19:03:43  <Samu> ah, i see
19:03:47  <Alberth> thus you should fix all cases where the bits are assigned a value
19:03:53  <Samu> have to edit that html document
19:04:55  <Alberth> your patch in 6235 is not a bug in the trunk code
19:06:13  <Samu> fix all cases where the bits are assigned a value, isn't that what I've done with that patch?
19:06:23  <Samu> ok, i got it on my machine
19:06:27  <Samu> you can delete the bug report
19:06:55  <Alberth> yes, but the patch doesn't belong in the bug tracker, as trunk has no meaning for the bits
19:10:15  <planetmaker> that patch in FS only starts to make sense in the context of *some* other patch(es) which utilize that bit and make use of that meaning
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19:29:06  <Samu> hmm interesting
19:29:08  <Samu> •	m3 bits 7..4: owner of road type 1 (tram); OWNER_NONE (10) is stored as OWNER_TOWN (0F)
19:29:14  <Samu> this, for roads
19:29:24  <Samu> so it's possible :)
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21:00:59  <Terkhen> good night
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22:23:16  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:24:32  <supermop> roll out of bed - first thing to  do is wake up computer and start a render
23:24:40  <supermop> now to make coffee
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