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Log for #openttd on 9th April 2015:
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00:05:04  *** Samu_ [~oftc-webi@po-217-129-252-157.netvisao.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:05:14  <Supercheese> Ho, it compiled
00:05:27  <Supercheese> whaddya know
00:15:58  <Supercheese> wonder if I have commit access to the ogfx+ airports repo...
00:16:18  <Supercheese> wellp, we'll see
00:17:05  <Supercheese> seems so
00:21:28  *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po-217-129-252-157.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
00:23:59  <Supercheese> ah blast, I made the company colors in the previews the wrong shades
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00:32:30  <kopoba> is there any place with grfs and images how it looks in game?
00:32:45  <Supercheese> GRFCrawler: http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/
00:32:56  <Supercheese> does not have a comprehensive database, but it has a lot
00:33:03  <kopoba> thanks
00:33:10  <Supercheese> and the images are rather small
00:33:17  <Supercheese> but it does have some
00:34:07  <Supercheese> Ho, there's a newer version of MariCo that I do not yet have
00:34:13  <Supercheese> how did that sneak by me...
00:36:30  <kamnet> NewGRFs are very sneaky
00:37:08  <Supercheese> You gotta be sneaky Charlie
00:37:45  <Supercheese> Oh, MariCo is not on bananas, that's how it snuck by
00:42:08  <Sylf> Since when are MB creations on bananas :D
00:42:17  <Supercheese> Well, I had forgotten
00:42:32  <Supercheese> even some of SACs stuff has now made it to bananas
00:44:04  <Supercheese> anyway kamnet: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1146768#p1146768
00:44:18  <kamnet> Just downloaded :D
00:44:22  <Supercheese> :D
00:44:40  <Supercheese> still working on the vintage commuter
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00:46:09  <Supercheese> the climate-aware previews take a while to create
00:57:21  <Samu> this is fixable, just need a way to tell which direction to take
00:58:14  <Samu> v->direction = DiagDirToDir(north_dir);
00:58:25  <Samu> v->direction = DiagDirToDir(south_dir);
00:58:42  <Samu> i need a direction based on the pathfinder
00:58:54  <Samu> it results in one of these two
00:58:59  <Samu> how can i do it?
01:00:28  * Sylf shakes his fist at the nightly backup process
01:01:44  <Samu> need something like v->direction = DiagDirtoDir(pathfinder_results_tells_which_direction_is_better_to_take);
01:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <Sylf> Since when are MB creations on bananas :D <-- not before DBSet 0.9 is released
01:01:52  <Samu> any hint?
01:02:25  <Sylf> DBSet 0.9 is due out... February 22 of year 2222?
01:02:57  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
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01:21:03  <Supercheese> Hmm, there are still lingering graphical issues with the vintage commuter airport
01:22:33  <Samu> okay
01:22:43  <Samu> got this
01:23:37  <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pl9ow49la
01:24:05  <Samu> was there a problem when ships could leave depots if the exits were blocked?
01:25:31  <Samu> strange, seemed so easy to fix :(
01:25:50  <Samu> that's why I ask
01:27:47  <Samu> oh, crap, not really doing what I think, let me re-fix
01:27:51  <Samu> lol
01:30:36  <Supercheese> Awesome, all issues fixed
01:31:27  <Samu> i want the ship to be smart though
01:36:41  <Samu> ah, got it
01:36:43  <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pu2pzubvn
01:37:56  <Samu> let me test will all different pathfinders
01:39:40  <Samu> ah damn OPF
01:39:45  <Samu> assertion
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01:53:54  <Samu> okay, i see why I can't do this so easy
01:54:00  <Samu> darn OPF
01:54:10  <Supercheese> the original pathfinder is shit
01:54:16  <Supercheese> don't bother with it
01:57:54  <Samu> i can work around the issue
01:58:41  <Samu> don't ask for any direction in case of OPF, just leave towards a "randomly chosen direction", apparently north
02:01:07  <Samu> yeah, it likes to go north
02:01:12  <Samu> so be it
02:04:00  <kamnet> Interesting that water waves go from east to west, the windsock on the airports blow north to south, and smoke from chimney buildings gets blown south to north.
02:04:39  <Supercheese> and none of them are affected by hills/slopes
02:04:50  <Supercheese> that would change the windflow pattern :P
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02:27:35  <supermop_> yo all
02:29:54  <supermop_> need to figure out how to model catenary curves and surfaces in rhion without fancy plug-ins
02:30:05  <supermop_> that or just use parabolae
02:31:02  <supermop_> pretty easy to make various saddle shaped surfaces to approximate tensile membrane roofs but it will be coolto learn to do it more 'correctly
02:31:05  <supermop_> '
02:33:56  <Samu> i found a bug, if you plant trees on coastal tiles, trees don't show up, but it costs me
02:34:54  <Samu> wait a min, maybe my trees are invisible omg
02:35:40  <Samu> yeah lol i'm stupid, i had invisible trees in transparency settings
02:35:42  <Samu> sorry
02:36:42  <kamnet> lol
02:36:47  <kamnet> I do that ALL the time
02:38:58  <Supercheese> there are lots of settings that can trip ya up like that
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02:53:07  <Mr_Bones_> grrrrr. ok, how were the nml-0.4.0 binary packages built?
02:53:13  <Mr_Bones_> I'm getting: /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages/setuptools/dist.py:292: UserWarning: The version specified ('0.4.0.r5527:5fc25f88f4ca') is an invalid version,
02:55:54  <Mr_Bones_> and then when trying to run nmlc, I get: ImportError: No module named 'nml'  with a traceback
02:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: catenary is easy, you just add an x^2, x^4, x^6, etc. line together
02:59:20  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: or use the "cosh" function directly if it's available
03:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the formula is 1/2!*x^2 + 1/4!*x^4 + 1/6!*x^6 + ...
03:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> where x! is x*(x-1)*...*3*2*1
03:01:05  <supermop_> ok lets see
03:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> parabola is too pointy at the tip, it needs to get bulged out
03:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also use "cos(i*x)" where i is the imaginary unit
03:03:20  <supermop_> yeah there is a 'conic' tool, could i do each section of the catenary as a conic?
03:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right
03:04:38  <supermop_> better to just do a bunch of straight segments and use your formulae to do each one?
03:05:10  <supermop_> the aim is to recreate the ogfx monorail roof
03:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> try to make a cubic spline, if you use intermediate points
03:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i can only give you the math, you need to find the appropriate function of your program yourself
03:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the catenary is called "cosinus hyperbolicus"
03:09:12  <Supercheese> Ha, how very Latin
03:09:19  <Supercheese> good old mathematicians
03:10:54  <supermop_> i can do it with a nurbs curve, just need to manually set position of each point
03:11:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean horny old mathematicians :p
03:11:27  <supermop_> if i make the curve degree 3 it is cubic
03:11:52  <supermop_> curve tool sets degree 3 by default so no problem there
03:12:00  <Sylf> Mr_Bones_, did you copy nml directory to /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages?
03:12:15  <Sylf> When I set up nml, I have to do that manually
03:12:34  <Mr_Bones_> I'm using setup.py
03:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: yes. degree 3 is the point where humans (usually) can't spot jumps in curvature anymore
03:12:45  <Sylf> me too.
03:13:08  <Mr_Bones_> it ends up in /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages/nml-0.4.0.r5527_5fc25f88f4ca-py3.3.egg-info/
03:13:09  <Sylf> After sudo python3 setup.py install, I sudo cp the nml directory
03:13:17  <supermop_> glad to see sylf see curves much in the same way as humans
03:13:21  <Sylf> no, it's separate from that egg info
03:13:44  <Sylf> :P
03:14:07  <Mr_Bones_> nml-0.4.0.r5527-3b43d37dec19.linux-x86_64.tar.gz doesn't have a nml directory
03:14:13  <supermop_> might be a bit silly as im then going to cut the catenary up to make into rigid segments (panels)
03:14:26  <Sylf> oh, I guess I don't grab the tarball
03:14:28  <supermop_> but i want to figure out how to model the wide for other uses
03:14:39  <Sylf> I grab the source from mercurial repository
03:14:41  <supermop_> *wire not wide
03:14:54  <supermop_> like bridges etc or fabric roofs
03:15:37  <Mr_Bones_> oh, the 0.3.1 setup.py installs the nlm directory but the 0.4.0 one doesn't.
03:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: i already said you need a checkout. the tarball doesn't work
03:15:49  <Supercheese> Awesome, got everything working
03:15:51  <Mr_Bones_> I assumed you meant the source tarball.
03:16:05  <Mr_Bones_> So right now, all the tarballs for 0.4.0 are broken?
03:16:19  <Sylf> if it doesn't have nml, then it's probably broken
03:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
03:16:42  <Mr_Bones_> seems less than ideal.
03:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> true
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03:18:29  <Mr_Bones_> oh... very different setup.py files between the two versions
03:19:12  <Mr_Bones_> packages=['nml', 'nml.actions', 'nml.ast', 'nml.expression'], is missing in 0.4.0.   seems like something....
03:22:21  <Supercheese> Vintage Commuter now live in OGFX+ Airports
03:23:45  <Samu> okay, this works
03:23:47  <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/plgc7fnxc
03:23:59  <Samu> not perfect, but it's something
03:24:08  <Samu> no assertion
03:24:20  <Samu> yapf gets the best behaviour
03:25:03  <supermop_> damn it, suspension bridges with heavy road decks form parabolae not catenaries
03:25:17  <Mr_Bones_> yep... adding the packages line back to setup.py results in a working install.
03:25:47  <supermop_> and susp. bridges with heavy cables fall between shape of parabola and catenary
03:25:53  <Mr_Bones_> I know zero things about distutils so no idea if there are other side effects.
03:26:23  <supermop_> if the roof panels are flush with the cables on this station should still be catenary though
03:30:18  <Samu> oh i can improve the ugly behaviour of opf, not sure about npf
03:30:33  <Samu> opf, just go north aka reverse = false
03:30:42  <Samu> npf, i dunno yet
03:30:53  <Samu> testing
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03:36:12  <Pikka> what about suspension bridges made out of toilet rolls and string?
03:36:18  <Pikka> #toyland4ever
03:38:03  <Samu> damn, npf behaviour is really ugly
03:38:19  <Samu> opf is actually better
03:38:37  <Samu> it reverses midway in the water
03:38:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: i'm sure people will appreciate a patch
03:39:21  <Samu> i have to oppose the reverse for NPF when it actually decides it's better to reverse
03:40:23  <Mr_Bones_> https://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/games-util/nml/files/nml-0.4.0-build.patch?revision=1.1
03:44:30  <kamnet> Supercheese, did you just now push ANOTHER update to OpenGFX+ Airports?
03:45:09  <Samu> plz test this for me: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pt1vlref5
03:45:39  <Samu> build a ship depot and put 2 docks at both exit
03:45:53  <Samu> then have a ship starting
03:46:07  <Samu> watch the different behaviours between the pathfinders
03:46:32  <Samu> i can't figure out a better behaviour for npf
03:46:43  <Samu> but that's my view on it
03:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: i don't think any of the people interested are here at this moment :p
03:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: post on the devzone
03:59:02  <Supercheese> kamnet: Yes
03:59:07  <Supercheese> post updates as well
03:59:10  <Supercheese> updated*
03:59:55  <Samu> i have to go sleep
04:00:16  <Samu> i'll check for answers tomorrow
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04:08:00  <kamnet> So r5577 shows up sometime tomorrow?
04:08:59  <kamnet> Oh nevermidn I see 5576-53
04:11:29  <kamnet> but looks like I'll have to wait for a compiled version :D
04:11:53  <Supercheese> err isn't it already?
04:12:05  <Supercheese> https://bundles.openttdcoop.org/airportsplus/push/LATEST/
04:30:17  <kamnet> Sorry, I looked again, it was there
04:30:33  <kamnet> My OpenTTD folder was pushing 14GB
04:35:15  <Supercheese> whew, that's not small
04:35:52  <kamnet> All stored on Google Drive. :D
04:39:49  <Supercheese> ah
04:40:33  <kamnet> Now trimmed down to 7.92 GB
04:53:53  *** soupy [~oftc-webi@24-107-129-82.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #openttd
04:54:12  <soupy> So I think inflation has ballsed up my game somehow.
04:54:24  <Supercheese> It does that
04:55:54  <soupy> I can choose between 170km/h for 0k / year, or the latest monorail 300km/h for k / year.
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04:56:46  <soupy> I usually don't change any settings to do with finances, but I don't remember this disparity.  Maybe it's one of the NewGRFs.
04:57:06  <soupy> Also, I'm not sure I've ever played a 200 year game before, so that might have something to do with it.
04:57:07  <V453000> do you mix newgrfs?
04:57:20  * soupy looks sheepish.
04:57:44  <soupy> I copied my NewGRF list from Damage's LP.
04:58:55  <V453000> well, such disparity in costs usually is due to various newgrfs
04:59:02  <V453000> and every newgrf is in different price range
04:59:11  <V453000> it is just yet another pointher at how useless prices are
04:59:43  <soupy> Without the cheap stuff I'd be screwed though.  I don't remember ever having such issues turning a profit.  The cheapest before these came along were 0k a year... which is a lot to ask for a train that moves fruit from one place to another.
05:00:38  <V453000> yeah, I guess the idea of the author is that the food/goods trains will balance it out, or that you should not use the trains on such route XD
05:00:39  <soupy> My fruit > alcohol industry was running at an almost constant 100k/year loss, no matter what I did.
05:00:45  <V453000> :)
05:00:47  <V453000> yeah
05:01:05  <V453000> I make things cheap, which is why NUTS is rather cheap
05:01:20  <V453000> lets you build more, less sitting around waiting for cash, simple as that
05:01:25  <soupy> I knew you were TTD-famous for something.
05:01:59  <V453000> the only real "way tomake more money" is trivial anyway, you build less track on longer distance. You can do that with everything cheaper and build faster, but nothing really changes with costs
05:02:20  <V453000> well I did a few more newgrfs but NUTS was first :P
05:02:44  <V453000> and I kind of spent years playing at openttdcoop before that so I kind of know how the game works too :P
05:02:55  <kamnet> Just depends on what you're playing for. I'm pretty much a sandbox player. I try to do things profitably, but if a line isn't making money I typically don't sweat it.
05:03:27  <V453000> openttd is sandbox? :P
05:03:29  <kamnet> After all, I'm the banker. I'm the 0.1% of the 1%. :D
05:03:37  <V453000> xd
05:04:26  <soupy> As for money, I know I could spend my savings on throwing out a long line and just pass stuff back and forth and be golden.  But I /knew/ there was something amiss with my alcohol industry losing money.
05:04:52  <kamnet> It's the engineer. he's drinking up your profits!
05:07:03  <soupy> He'll be boozing for a while.  Now I've found the problem, I've got 2,000,000 liters of alcohol sitting around.
05:07:40  <V453000> :)
05:08:29  <soupy> Between this and a similar problem with my bauxite > supplies chain, I haven't even started wood or oil yet.
05:09:03  <V453000> I think FIRS also reduces the payment rates for primary cargoes quite majorly
05:09:12  <V453000> so if you have an expensive train set, it is probably wtf
05:09:18  <V453000> and secondaries help a ton
05:10:09  <Pikka> in any case, if you've been playing for 200 years with inflation on, your income will be about 1/5th of what the newgrfs are balanced for. :)
05:10:26  <soupy> That's what I'm thinking Pikka.
05:10:38  <V453000> aaaand that :)
05:14:35  <soupy> Hmm, which makes me wonder if the modpack I found with decent maintenance fees isn't taking inflation into account.
05:14:49  <soupy> s/modpack/NewGRF
05:15:19  <V453000> it likely isnt
05:15:22  <V453000> you cant really do that
05:15:34  <V453000> the player could start the game 30 years later or earlier and all of your calculations would be broken
05:16:58  <kamnet> We need a new inflation model that balances against map size
05:17:28  <soupy> Huh, I'd have thought there would be some public method to do that.  $actualprice = $this.inflate($baseprice)
05:18:11  <V453000> nah we dont need any price model, and people need to stop playing on maps larger than 1k x 1k XD
05:18:27  <V453000> all reason is out of the window by then anyway
05:18:33  <V453000> "I just want bigger map cause duh"
05:22:11  <soupy> Pretty much.  I genned a 4kx4k map and I'm only using maybe 600x600 so far.
05:28:01  <V453000> I dont think anybody ever filled anything above 1k x 1k
05:28:08  <V453000> I had 5000 trains on 512x512
05:28:22  <V453000> bigger map just wrecks CPU and everything
05:28:52  <V453000> for multiplayer where is extreme amount of clients, 2k x 1k is reasonable
05:28:58  <V453000> but still holyhell big
05:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can try to set the basecost
05:29:07  <Pikka> it's so people can play multiplayer without the extreeeme stress of actually interacting with other players
05:29:44  <Pikka> 4 players all playing in different corners of 2048*, isn't that just so much more fun than single-player?
05:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> basecost works in steps of doubling/halving cost or income groups
05:30:09  <Supercheese> I have yet to play a game larger than 512x512
05:30:28  <Supercheese> since my goal is to hook up every town and every industry
05:30:32  <kamnet> I like bigger maps because I like to look at trees and mountains and rivers. If I wanted to see 512x512 crammed with train lines, I'd look at circuit boards
05:30:36  <Supercheese> anything larger would take aeons
05:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the largest i played seriously was 2048x1024 with very few towns. but i only covered half the map
05:31:12  <kamnet> I played the same game for nearly four years. :D
05:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause> interestingly, i covered the longer edge in that game
05:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so like 2048x512
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05:36:13  <kamnet> I think I'm going to start working on my GRFID project and just let the community work on the NewGRF list for a bit. If they care. Which they probably don't. :P
05:36:23  <soupy> Maybe a stupid question, but with all these NewGRFs, not all the trains are easily distinguishable by what type of track they run on.  Is there an easy way of showing?
05:37:12  <andythenorth> no
05:37:24  <andythenorth> (Track Type) in the name doesn’t work very well
05:37:28  <andythenorth> some people use icons iirc
05:37:49  <kamnet> But no universally agreed on format for displaying that information.
05:37:59  <V453000> I think I will start over with RAWR postproduction XD
05:38:02  <V453000> it just got WAY out of hand
05:38:43  <V453000> just build a depot and see which trains are available in that depot soupy
05:39:16  <kamnet> *ponders* If I post my GRFID Wiki proposal in OpenTTD Development, would I get better feedback or participation?
05:39:19  <soupy> Genius.
05:40:24  <andythenorth> oop
05:40:26  <andythenorth> oops
05:40:30  * andythenorth crashed openttd
05:40:39  <andythenorth> hard
05:40:49  <kamnet> It needs more coffee
05:41:05  * Supercheese crashed trains
05:41:20  <Supercheese> perhaps crashing trains crashed ottd
05:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i put track type in extra purchase text
05:41:42  <Supercheese> and then if crashing ottd crashes your computer...
05:41:47  <V453000> when you crash carmageddon reincarnation (often), it says "Oh the irony, game about crashing has crashed."
05:42:03  <soupy> I think Beul's Mono Maglev conversion is throwing it off a bit.  Monorail trains are showing available in a maglev statino
05:43:13  <kamnet> That's what it's supposed to do.
05:43:59  <kamnet> "This grf modifies compatibility of standard rail types to allow electrified trains on monorail and monorail on maglev. The aim is to make the process of converting to/from monorail and maglev easier. Known side-effects are that electric trains are now purchasable in monorail depot's. (the same goes for mono and maglev ofc). Furthermore it may (read will) in some cases look silly."
05:44:47  <kamnet> Also: "This grf will likely not function well with any other railtype grf. Trainsets with great amounts of vehicles will cause a very long vehicle list. It is also advised not to use this grf if you have vehicles_never_expire enabled."
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05:45:28  <soupy> Yeah, that's the problem I'm coming up against.  I probably should have read the fine print.
05:45:48  <kamnet> Caveat emptor.
05:45:56  <soupy> I'm only 3 days into this map.  I may have to start over and remove a few NewGRFs.
05:47:20  <kamnet> That always sucks. Granted you could enable newgrf developer mode and take it out, but it could leave things unpredictable. >:)
05:48:09  <kamnet> Not that I'd ever suggest anybody do such things. I totally hosed my four-year long save game because of it.
05:49:18  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't read the description of NewGRFs, you probably also don't read the instructions of which NewGRFs are probably dangerous to remove from a running game
05:49:23  <V453000> removing track sets definitely is not a good idea
05:50:49  <soupy> I read the description Eddi|zuHause, and knew what that mod did.  I didn't think of it when I tried V453000's suggestion.
05:51:00  <kamnet> My poor game. Supercheese's mail trucks kept getting stuck on the threshold between road tiles and lorry stations. :-(
05:51:18  <Supercheese> How odd...
05:51:27  * andythenorth considers using a binary heap
05:51:46  <Supercheese> Ah I really should get around to adding 32bpp to those vehicles
05:51:55  <Supercheese> they are almost all rendered
05:52:16  <soupy> I'm going to see what endgame looks like.  If I can just get to know a few of the maglev vehicles for specific purposes, I'll stick with it.
05:52:46  <kamnet> Not the mail truck's fault. I had added and removed enough NewGRFs I somehow corrupted the game logic that vehicles couldn't tell when the lorry station was empty or full, so they'd stop on the threshold and block all other vehicles from coming or going.
05:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> TTO used to do that. somehow one or more vehicles got stuck when entering/leaving a truck station, and then they all clumped up
05:54:05  <kamnet> Supercheese, that would be awesome. Also wouldn't mind seeing earlier models of hot air balloons. :)
05:54:19  <Supercheese> I have that too
05:54:33  * andythenorth thinks using heapq might be overkill for a simple list
05:54:44  <Supercheese> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1062867#p1062867
05:54:55  <Supercheese> but I am really lazy
05:55:02  <Supercheese> so I haven't implemented it yet
05:55:44  <Supercheese> although if you want, I can send you that test grf
06:01:47  * andythenorth learns some actual programming theory
06:02:08  <andythenorth> ‘computer science’ would be stretching the term though
06:02:23  <kamnet> That would be cool, Supercheese :D
06:02:41  <Supercheese> mmk, I'll pm it to ya on the forums in a bit
06:02:52  <kamnet> I'm revamping my Empire scenario and would love to see random balloons floating by
06:05:20  <andythenorth> hmm https://docs.python.org/2/library/collections.html#module-collections
06:12:45  <Rubidium> kamnet: what would such a GRFID project yield?
06:14:12  <kamnet> Rubidium: In essence, replace GRFCrawler with a Wiki database of GRFIDs. Run a script that scrapes bananas for all current GRFIDs registered and generates a page for each one with basic information. Authors and visitors alike can then modify the wiki to include any useful information they deem fit to publish.
06:14:39  <Rubidium> bananas scraping is so lame ;)
06:14:50  <Rubidium> and that list is so partial
06:15:14  <kamnet> It would be partial, but it would be a start
06:15:29  <kamnet> as more files are added to bananas, more IDs automatically get copied over.
06:15:37  <Rubidium> http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrfs.php <- better start ;)
06:15:45  <Supercheese> kamnet: pm sent
06:16:24  <Rubidium> as that contains basically anything that has been seen in the last few years on multiplayer games
06:17:21  <kamnet> You could pull that into. Bananas is wonderful, though, because a) we know authors are using it to update their files and b) it contains useful information for players.
06:17:22  <Rubidium> but I reckon that searching is going to be a real pain in the arse in wiki
06:18:53  <kamnet> Not any more than it is on GRFCrawler now
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06:19:38  <andythenorth> I would pay zero attention to any list of grfids
06:20:17  <andythenorth> bananas prevents uploading with an existing grfid?
06:20:37  <V453000> ^
06:20:45  <V453000> waste of time
06:20:56  * andythenorth considers making 255 FISH grfs, to reserve ‘my’ range
06:20:56  <V453000>  #gobananasorgohome
06:21:10  <andythenorth> and uploading them all to bananas
06:21:15  <kamnet> Say, for example, you have a scenario with NewGRFs loaded, but you don't have them. OpenTTD offers to find them in Bananas. Banaas doesn't have the files. It then offers to find them for you when you click "External Website" button. Currently it takes you to a GRFCrawler result that searched for the missing GRFID.
06:21:16  <andythenorth> I need a naming convention
06:21:47  <andythenorth> fish-00.grf - fish-FF.grf?
06:21:48  <V453000> "grf exists" and "grf isnt on bananas" should not even happen :(
06:21:53  <soupy> Well, I have seen the future, and it is shit.  Changed the year to see exactly what trains I'll have available.  Apparently after I convert to maglev, I'll be limited to non-FIRS transportation.
06:22:03  <andythenorth> ha
06:22:07  <andythenorth> you suck :D
06:22:16  <V453000> original trains :)
06:22:23  <soupy> Balls.
06:22:25  <Supercheese> Well, for testing purposes surely grf exists predates grf is on bananas
06:22:26  <V453000> no NUTS, no play :P
06:22:44  <V453000> sure Supercheese but usually not publicly available
06:22:48  <V453000> if yes then that already is pretty wrong
06:22:50  <andythenorth> ‘for testing purposes’ the grfid could be 12345678
06:22:53  <Supercheese> and during development new features don't make it to bananas but they are on bundles server......
06:22:58  <V453000> just throwing gfrfs around forums is quite bullshit imo
06:23:07  <V453000> true
06:23:07  <andythenorth> you are quite bullshit V453000
06:23:20  <planetmaker> moin
06:23:20  <V453000> also true? :D
06:23:22  <V453000> hy
06:23:26  <andythenorth> bonsoir
06:23:28  <planetmaker> Supercheese, http://hgbook.red-bean.com/read/migrating-to-mercurial.html#id442397 is for you then :)
06:23:43  * andythenorth resists git trolling
06:23:45  <Supercheese> Eh, I have made it work
06:24:20  <Supercheese> I'm an engineer not a computer science major, so I doubt my use of any vcs will ever be required outside of hobby work
06:24:23  <kamnet> As much as I'd like it to be, not everybody wants to be nice and use bananas, and they're also not interested in registering on grfcrawler and keeping it updated. By moving it to the wiki, anybody who is interested in updating the info can do so.
06:24:26  <soupy> OK, so NUTS provides a new railtype after maglev, and has full FIRS compatibility, right?
06:24:32  <andythenorth> if I am recursing over a simple tree of switches, why do I care what the switch IDs are?
06:24:42  <V453000> NUTS has compatibility with any industry set
06:24:58  <V453000> and adds a bunch of universal tracks, and wetrail :>
06:25:18  <andythenorth> switch_1, switch_2 instead of switch_check_player, switch_check_road_ne
06:26:02  <andythenorth> then I don’t have to track the entry point
06:26:20  <Supercheese> Hmm, I doubt I can commit my current seaplane port to OGFX+ since I use MariCo sprites...
06:26:26  <Supercheese> dilemma
06:26:41  <Supercheese> need GPL-compatible sprites
06:26:54  <Supercheese> and I don't draw
06:27:46  <kamnet> Ask Quast65 if he still has the very first copies of the seaplane port. he had some dock-style sprites with it before he removed them all.
06:28:00  <Supercheese> yeah that's right
06:28:15  <Supercheese> that version of the grf is gone too
06:28:42  <kamnet> ask Owne to roll back the forum database ;-)
06:28:55  <Supercheese> although hmmm, can one grf use the sprites from another somehow...
06:29:06  <Supercheese> I know you can check for presence and do overrides and stuff
06:29:34  <kamnet> Do you really wanna tie the usage of your NewGRF to another NewGRF that isn't on Bananas?
06:29:53  <Supercheese> No, of course not, but if it's detected it could optionally use the sprites
06:30:03  <Supercheese> which makes for a very smooth integration and neat aesthetics
06:30:16  <Supercheese> but I doubt that is even possible
06:31:47  <kamnet> Shoot the sprites over to me, I'll draw some new ones that match the shape and size.
06:32:50  <Supercheese> Hmm, not a bad idea, there are only two sprites and they are mirrors of each other
06:33:22  <soupy> Well, if my choices are to pay .6 million a year for a maximum of 240km/h for FIRS transport, or try NUTS... I think I'ma go NUTS.
06:34:42  <kamnet> Huzaah, soupy! Pull the trigger
06:38:41  <planetmaker> Supercheese, as to airports: is there a natural (temporal) progression from the grass to the concrete representation or is it purely user choice?
06:38:56  * andythenorth wonders about futurism trains in Iron Horse
06:38:58  <Supercheese> It is currently just a user selection
06:39:20  <Supercheese> there is no automated transition, same as the Modern Small
06:39:35  <planetmaker> ah. I thought they would change at a certain date :) Modern and small are different sizes and layouts :)
06:40:07  <kamnet> A suggestion: pre-1930 is grass, 1930-1950 is asphalt, 1950+ concrete.
06:40:14  <planetmaker> I actually was surprised one could add more than 4 rotations, Supercheese :)
06:40:29  <Supercheese> errr? I based all of my changes on the existing small airport's modern layouts
06:40:32  <Supercheese> those were added ages ago
06:40:52  <planetmaker> Supercheese, and as to creating the previews, it's easy: build the airport ingame on the terrain, create a screenshot and cut the preview from the screenshot. That's how I created the different previews tailored to climate
06:41:06  <Supercheese> Yep, that is what I did, just really time consuming
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06:41:13  <planetmaker> true :P
06:41:20  <Supercheese> anyway, r162: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/airportsplus/repository/revisions/f693f76e28a8
06:41:44  <planetmaker> ok, I might mis-remember some details. And yes, I saw your changes. Just wondered how it worked (I didn't really read code)
06:42:21  <Supercheese> It works the same as those additions by Yexo
06:42:47  <__ln__> @seen Yexo
06:42:47  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 18 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 26 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
06:42:58  <Supercheese> man, long-o time-o
06:43:33  <Supercheese> Anyway, the new airport variants do not have much in-game publicity
06:43:41  <Supercheese> you really have to know they are there and keep clicking the rotations
06:43:53  <Supercheese> perhaps some additional texts should hint to their existence
06:44:14  <kamnet> Indeed, I didn't know it until you brought it to my attention. I never thought to look past the 4th rotation
06:44:23  <Supercheese> I'll work on that next
06:45:07  <planetmaker> kk, no worries Supercheese :)
06:47:41  <planetmaker> Supercheese, either that. Or introduce them as separate airports
06:47:49  <Supercheese> that is just what I was thinking
06:48:05  <Supercheese> need to check how that would be best done
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06:51:06  <Supercheese> Man, I'm never gonna get back to playing, just gonna keep adding more grf features XD
06:51:52  <andythenorth> happens
06:52:18  <supermop_> hey pm
06:53:00  <supermop_> the tensile roof monorail station: what if the roof membrane was suspended below the wires?
06:56:39  <soupy> OK, so here's my proposed NewGRF listing for my new game:  Vactrain set, av8, FIRS, original vehicle FIRS cargo, Squid Ate FISH, NUTS, PURR, YETI.
06:57:21  <Pikka> why "original vehicle FIRS cargo"? especially if you're using NUTS
06:57:30  <Pikka> go with road hog if you need a RV set :P
06:57:45  <soupy> Because new things scare me.
06:57:58  <soupy> I JUST WANT TO CLING TO WHAT I KNOW
06:58:12  <Pikka> also, personally, I recommend av9.8 rather than av8, but ymmv ;)
06:58:14  <soupy> OK, I'll remove the FIRS cargo thing.
06:58:37  <Supercheese> I am not even sure you can add a new airport entry
06:58:45  <soupy> I barely use planes anyhow, so that's not a big deal really.
06:59:37  <andythenorth> use eGRVTS not Road Hog
06:59:57  <andythenorth> Hog is all wron
06:59:58  <Supercheese> it seems like you must have the override property set when you define a newgrf airport, but that means you can't add an entirely new entry
06:59:59  <andythenorth> wrong *
07:00:04  <Pikka> hog is alright :)
07:00:18  <andythenorth> it will be beta soon
07:00:20  <Pikka> ?? Supercheese
07:00:21  <andythenorth> 'soon'
07:00:30  <soupy> I just removed eGRVTS.  Honestly I was tired of having too many choices.
07:00:31  <Pikka> you have to set the property so it knows which airport to copy the statemachine from
07:00:35  <Supercheese> Indeed
07:00:47  <Supercheese> but then you can't have two airports overriding the same airport both show up eh
07:00:48  <Pikka> but unless you set a certain bit it won't override the original, iirc?
07:01:09  <Pikka> that's my interpretation of the spec, I've never tried making new airports :P
07:01:31  <Supercheese> well adding more and more layouts has worked swimmingly
07:01:38  <Supercheese> but they are very poorly advertised
07:01:51  <Supercheese> an entirely new entry in the list would be far more obvious
07:02:39  <Pikka> huh
07:03:01  <Pikka> the intro blurb talks about "property 8 or 9", but property 9 isn't listed :)
07:03:33  <soupy> OK, so Vacuum Tube set, av8, FIRS, Squid, NUTSPURRYETI.
07:04:11  <soupy> Any recommendations on settings changes so I don't fark myself over with inflation like last time?
07:04:23  <Supercheese> well, that's peculiar
07:04:23  <Pikka> if you like that sort of thing, soupy. Um.. turn inflation off? that's the main one. :)
07:04:41  <Supercheese> OTTD does not like a grf trying to set the name property on airports
07:06:36  <andythenorth> Pikka: so you have hogged? o_O
07:06:40  <kamnet> If eGRVTS is too many choices, might wanna try Hungarian Truck Set. Good variety, but not too many IMO.
07:06:45  <Pikka> it's a lie
07:07:00  <Pikka> I have hogged, but not in the last few days? are there updates?
07:07:06  <andythenorth> erm
07:07:14  <andythenorth> alpha-14 a few days ago
07:07:16  <andythenorth> nothing since
07:07:39  <soupy> Pikka,  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the problem.  i.e. why some trains were over a million per year, and some were 10k... and what the price /should/ be.
07:08:07  <soupy> I think starting in 1850 was a big problem.  I got off to a very bad start.
07:08:40  <planetmaker> Supercheese, that's peculiar indeed
07:08:42  <Pikka> why some trains were over a million per year, and some were 10k <- well that can only be because of using multiple grfs, I expect.
07:08:50  <Supercheese> There is no property for Airport Class (Small, Large, Hub, Helicopter). I would think that defining a new airport would require such a property...
07:08:51  <Pikka> V's trains tend to be very cheap because he doesn't care about money :)
07:08:54  <kamnet> soupy, have you tried a 1950-2050 game yet?
07:08:56  <Pikka> so that's NUTS, etc
07:09:12  <Pikka> there is, Supercheese
07:09:15  <Supercheese> oh?
07:09:29  <Supercheese> It is not enumerated in either wiki entry
07:09:32  <Pikka> oh
07:09:36  <Pikka> there isn't, Supercheese :)
07:09:39  <Supercheese> ha
07:09:50  <soupy> kamnet: As long as NUTS will let me keep playing after 2050, I'd be quite happy.
07:09:52  <Pikka> I was thinking 0D, but... there you go :)
07:09:53  <planetmaker> Supercheese, the category is defined by the layout you choose (such by which airport it is)
07:09:59  <Pikka> also that
07:10:04  <Supercheese> well yeah overriding
07:10:09  <Supercheese> hmm
07:10:18  <V453000> NUTS works like 1700-forever :D
07:10:24  <V453000> even with expiring vehicles
07:10:35  <V453000> just works (tm)
07:10:56  <soupy> Well this should be fun then.  I'ma just dive into these NUTS and see what happens.
07:11:24  <V453000> spoilers: mayhem happens
07:11:39  <Pikka> slugs happen
07:11:44  <V453000> ^
07:11:55  <Supercheese> Well... if you make one item entry for the Small airport, you need to use the override property... but then if you want to make another entry for a different type of Small airport, you'd have to set the override again... which invalidates your first changes
07:12:12  <Supercheese> unless... hmm
07:12:51  <soupy> Bugger it, starting in 1900 for a nice slow early-game.
07:12:57  <Supercheese> ah there we go
07:13:16  * andythenorth fixes petrol-pump-on-slopes-issue
07:14:20  <planetmaker> hm... so how does it work, Supercheese ? :)
07:14:35  <Supercheese> well, I have added a new entry but cannot yet change its name
07:15:08  <planetmaker> not even with the name property?
07:15:18  <Supercheese> it complains when I use that
07:15:21  <planetmaker> oh, of course it will have to have its own ID
07:15:38  <Supercheese> says attempting to use invalid ID
07:16:16  <Supercheese> I may need to give the item block its own ID
07:16:27  <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mean
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07:18:49  <Supercheese> No, use of the name property still results in that invalid ID complaint, irrespective of automatic or manual item ID selection
07:19:03  <Supercheese> but removing the name property, all works pretty much fine
07:19:22  <Supercheese> I wonder if I need to update NML...
07:20:56  <Supercheese> yeah OTTD really hates the name property
07:22:01  <andythenorth> urgh
07:22:04  <andythenorth> the circular tile check
07:22:08  <andythenorth> can I continue avoiding that?
07:22:11  <Pikka> yay
07:22:12  <andythenorth> it’s not hard, just ugly
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07:22:42  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/industries/builders_yard.pypnml#L21
07:26:15  <planetmaker> Supercheese, got a patch for me to check?
07:26:23  <planetmaker> the name property woes?
07:26:43  <Supercheese> I am investing main OTTD source, trying to see if there's something weird going on
07:28:48  <Pikka> andy: what does the search do?
07:29:08  <Pikka> the tile cheque, I mean
07:29:23  <Supercheese> but yeah, adding the name property to any airport causes an invalid ID error
07:32:22  <soupy> V453000: I just Googled "yeti dude uranium nuts".
07:32:26  <soupy> gdi
07:32:28  <Supercheese> AddStringForMapping(buf->ReadWord(), &as->name);
07:32:32  <V453000> xd
07:32:42  <Supercheese> hmm, nothing seems out of place, but I don't know what the & is doing there
07:32:56  <V453000> http://www.defectiveyeti.com/images/dynew.gif
07:33:06  <soupy> So it looks like Yeti makes FIRS obsolete.
07:33:13  <andythenorth> Pikka: goes looking for houses nearby, allows building if it finds some
07:33:26  <V453000> you cant really have 2 concurrent industry sets
07:33:28  * andythenorth would be happy if FIRS was obsolete
07:33:36  <Supercheese>   :(
07:33:38  * Supercheese would not
07:33:44  <andythenorth> things need to die
07:34:15  <Pikka> just check town zone, near enough? ;)
07:34:25  <andythenorth> eh maybe
07:34:29  <andythenorth> might be a good idea
07:35:10  <andythenorth> what do they mean? o_O http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:List_of_town_zones
07:35:14  <andythenorth> I've never used them
07:36:50  <Supercheese> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/TownZones ?
07:36:56  <Supercheese> not necessarily much more help there..
07:37:36  <Supercheese> "Roads are plain in zone 0 and 1, paved in zone 2, have trees in zone 3 and streetlights in zone 4 "
07:38:03  <Pikka> checking for any of them is probably enough. Leaving out TOWNZONE_EDGE if you don't want it right on the edge or in very small towns?
07:38:23  <planetmaker> Supercheese, got a quick patch, adding a new airport for me?
07:38:29  <Supercheese> sure, sec
07:40:45  <andythenorth> Pikka: so which zone(s) to check for if I want to be near houses? o_O
07:40:49  <andythenorth> all but edge?
07:41:11  <Pikka> any of them I should think
07:41:59  * andythenorth experiments
07:42:01  <Pikka> tile check might be the only way to guarantee that it's near houses
07:42:12  <andythenorth> don’t actually care that much
07:42:28  <Pikka> but I'd do some other distance-to-town check first just to narrow it down, so it's not doing the tile search everywhere.
07:42:41  <andythenorth> can’t remember even why the current code is the way it is
07:45:40  <Supercheese> planetmaker: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7615
07:46:25  <Supercheese> if you want complete code I can paste that too
07:47:07  <Supercheese> I have also tried taking unpatched OGFX+ airports and only trying to add the name property to one of the existing airports, and that also results in errors
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07:48:22  * andythenorth wonders if there is TOWN_ZONE_NONE
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07:48:54  <chillcore> good mmorning interwebz o/
07:49:04  <Pikka> frequently!
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07:49:23  <kamnet> Supercheese, PM for ya
07:49:41  <Supercheese> Ho, quite nice
07:52:32  <kamnet> :-)
07:54:46  <kamnet> I've not tested that next to a land mass or newobject surface, so no idea how it lines up though. May need to make it slightly ramped
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07:57:12  <Supercheese> They blend well enough with MariCo docks
07:57:29  <Supercheese> but yeah the pillars are shorter
07:57:32  <planetmaker> Supercheese, setting a name seems to compile at least with NML. Is it just OpenTTD which complains? http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/misc_ogfxairport.diff (sorry, mixed with another patch)
07:57:34  <Supercheese> so a ramp may be helpful
07:57:56  <Supercheese> planetmaker: Yes, NML compiles fine but OTTD complains when loading the grf in a new game
07:58:00  <planetmaker> ah
07:58:10  <Supercheese> sorry if that wasn't clear
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07:59:10  <Supercheese> oh shoot I am running a patched version, I hope that wasn't causing the issues
07:59:22  <Supercheese> I forget I am doing so :S let me grab nightly
07:59:35  <andythenorth> :o
07:59:52  <andythenorth> editor find-replace somehow reverted a file to a much older version :o
07:59:54  <andythenorth> wtf
07:59:56  * andythenorth fixes
08:00:09  <planetmaker> hm, strange, Supercheese... the version here doesn't barf either
08:00:30  <Supercheese> I keep forgetting the version I use is not trunk T__T
08:00:42  <Supercheese> this has happened before :|
08:00:56  <planetmaker> r27124
08:01:08  <planetmaker> what *do* you use?
08:01:35  <Supercheese> r27220M, with several personal modifications
08:02:24  <Supercheese> ah, it is still complaining in r27221
08:02:43  <planetmaker> what does it complain about?
08:02:57  <planetmaker> (exact message)
08:03:12  <Supercheese> A fatal NewGRF error has occurred: Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 9933)
08:07:43  <planetmaker> right. I cannot reproduce that. Not with current OpenTTD head nor with r27124
08:07:59  <Supercheese> well, I use the precompiled Windows NML
08:08:13  <Supercheese> perhaps that has something to do with it
08:08:27  <planetmaker> 0.4.0.r5576:84560317b163 from 2015-04-08
08:08:32  <planetmaker> not sure
08:09:06  <planetmaker> you probably should file a bug with NML with the complete patch of ogfx-airports you have
08:09:22  <planetmaker> or better a minimal patch which creates the broken grf
08:16:13  <planetmaker> Supercheese, you might want to try whether my patch works for you (use hg import)
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08:53:28  <andythenorth> default values hide mis-spelt keyword args :P
08:53:56  <planetmaker> :D
08:54:43  <andythenorth> 6 out of 66 FIRS industries converted :P
08:56:44  * andythenorth has run out of tertiaries
08:56:51  <andythenorth> tertiaries are easy, no production :P
08:58:16  <andythenorth> kamnet: hotels near houses, rather than near center of towns yes/no?
09:00:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth, just anywhere near / in towns is fine
09:00:31  <andythenorth> it’s now seeking houses
09:00:37  <andythenorth> as that check exists and can be used
09:00:48  <andythenorth> no more resort hotels 8 tiles from town, mind :P
09:01:21  <planetmaker> resorts can be right in the middle of nowhere :)
09:02:41  * andythenorth compares before/after
09:02:46  <andythenorth> single-industry compiling ftw
09:04:07  <andythenorth> 16 seconds with primed caches, not 3 mins
09:04:08  <andythenorth> hmm
09:04:13  <andythenorth> dunno about this hotels rule
09:04:21  <andythenorth> looks nice when they’re out of town
09:04:47  *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:06:30  <andythenorth> how about hotels just anywhere? o_O
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09:46:30  <__ln__> https://manjaro.github.io/expired_SSL_certificate/
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10:40:51  <Pikka> hotels EVERYWHERE
10:41:06  <Pikka> in other news, it helps if you remember to put the increment in your while loop :)
10:45:55  <SpComb> thankfully python doesn't have loops with increments
10:46:07  <supermop_> hotels everywhere sounds fine to me
10:46:14  <supermop_> more hotel layouts too
10:57:29  <supermop_> spaceframes really don't look good in tt world
10:57:47  <supermop_> thin, light structures in general just look odd
11:03:25  * chillcore makes some noise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWcgVoZ9iy0
11:04:29  <chillcore> the crowd (in the vid) will shut up and shake booty  ;)
11:05:35  * chillcore shakes booty ... ouch
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11:40:09  <Samu> hi
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13:16:19  <Xaroth|Work> SpComb: enumerate()?
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13:33:44  <SpComb> Xaroth|Work: exactly, it has a better approach, and you don't need to write out any explicit increments
13:39:13  <supermop_> writing posts after 700ml bottle of 9% ale not a great idea
13:39:24  <supermop_> much rambling
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13:45:41  <andythenorth> blearch
13:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds unhealthy
13:47:27  <supermop_> have a tuatara double trouble andy
13:48:46  <chillcore> supemop: 2 mussels went for fries. coathanger.    <- if you are not rolling on the floor right now ... you can has another :P
13:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> keep your measles for yourself
13:49:50  <chillcore> hehe
13:50:19  <supermop_> hmm i actually have met very few germans who like bivalves
13:50:46  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a bivalve?
13:51:00  <supermop_> i've also met no germans from parts of germany near where bivalves live
13:51:07  <supermop_> s maybe that's why
13:51:15  <supermop_> mussel or clam or oyster
13:51:56  <supermop_> growing up in the midwest, i generally also met almost no one who really liked oysters or mussels
13:52:06  <supermop_> scallops yes for some reason
13:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, most seafood has the trouble of being really salty
13:52:41  <supermop_> chillcore: unfortunately its all gone!
13:52:54  <supermop_> ber came with free 3d glassed though
13:52:59  <supermop_> beer
13:53:24  <chillcore> too bad and nice
13:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there a futurama intro slide with "now in beervision"?
13:54:17  <chillcore> I have not seen enough episodes to know that ...
13:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> my google skills fail me on this one
13:55:09  <supermop_> http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1349896875/505/7801505.jpg
13:55:18  <supermop_> that's what i was drinking
13:55:50  <supermop_> 3d glasses did not fit over my regular glasses though
13:57:08  <supermop_> man this guy really loves the jinty
13:57:22  <supermop_> i only had tto i can can barely remember it
13:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause> man, i'm like a week behind in forum posts
14:06:09  *** Faintful [~oftc-webi@5ED43DC0.cm-7-5a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
14:06:13  <Faintful> Hey guys!
14:06:23  <Faintful> I was wondering how I can enable Cargodist on a dedicated server
14:06:33  <Faintful> I can't find the options in the config
14:07:50  <planetmaker> then look again :)
14:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> they might have the phrase "linkgraph" in them
14:08:32  <planetmaker> but look for the section [linkgraph]
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14:14:17  <Faintful> I will take a look!
14:14:41  <Faintful> Can I ask one more question? If I have a server with newGRF's installed, will players that connect be able to use them without downloading them seperately?
14:15:34  <Pikka> define "seperately"?
14:15:54  <Pikka> if the newgrfs are on bananas, they'll be able to click a button to download everything they need
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14:16:30  <Faintful> But it won't download automatically from the server?
14:16:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the answer you're looking for is: "no". the players have to download the NewGRFs, and the server cannot distribute them
14:16:51  <planetmaker> no. They cannot connect to the server, if they don't have those used by the savegame
14:17:05  <Faintful> I see, thanks!
14:17:09  <planetmaker> but the server join dialogue offers to download missing from bananas
14:17:10  <Faintful> Unfortunate though!
14:17:14  <Faintful> Ohh, really?
14:17:18  <planetmaker> thus: use only bananas-fied ones
14:17:19  <Faintful> It does that automatically?
14:17:25  <planetmaker> no. but it's one click
14:17:31  <Faintful> Yeah, I do only download ones from content.openttd.org :)
14:17:31  <planetmaker> did you never play online yourself? Try it!
14:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you have to click a button to download
14:17:38  <planetmaker> before you setup a server yourself
14:17:51  <planetmaker> you use web download?!
14:17:52  <Faintful> I was setting up a cool server for me and my friend, but we haven't had the time to test it out yet
14:17:57  <planetmaker> how pretty uncool :)
14:18:10  <Faintful> pretty uncool? XD
14:18:10  <planetmaker> use ingame content download :)
14:18:15  <planetmaker> easy-peasy
14:18:20  <chillcore> ^^^
14:18:59  <Faintful> I should change my download path then :p
14:19:14  <supermop_> later
14:19:19  <planetmaker> download path?
14:19:28  <chillcore> no when creating the server with newGRF that are on bananas and start a game
14:20:12  <Faintful> Oh yeah, I'm using a dedicated server!
14:20:14  <Faintful> Forgot to mention that :p
14:20:35  <planetmaker> yes... use rcon :P
14:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause> thre's a console interface for the content download
14:21:05  <planetmaker> but there it might be easier to get them locally and copy them to the dedicated server, if you don't use them all
14:21:34  <Faintful> I'm only using a select few indeed, there's so many options!
14:22:17  <planetmaker> the console interface sadly is not straight forward for that. Luckily soap knows how to handle it and only thing I need is !content :)
14:22:42  <Faintful> Ahhh, I read about soap ye
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14:22:57  <Faintful> Btw guys, I set up my Cargodist! It was indeed linkgraph I had to find.. stupid me
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14:28:06  <soupy> Faintful: Is linkgraph the one that shows you the pretty graphs on who wants to go where?
14:30:24  <planetmaker> no(t directly). But when cargodist is active, that linkgraph can be toggled ingame to assess the cargo flow
14:31:19  <planetmaker> depends on what you call 'the linkgraph' really. Technically the UI shows what cargodist uses to distribute stuff
14:36:45  <Faintful> The linkgraph settings also allow you to change the distribution from manual to symetric
14:37:31  <Faintful> Why is it as a player possible for me to alter the settings? For example the AI's? Is there an extra setting I have to enable for that to be impossible?
14:37:46  <Faintful> Oh wait
14:37:47  <Faintful> Nevermind
14:37:50  <Faintful> VERY DUMB!!
14:39:16  <Faintful> Something is very wrong with th eautosave setting in 1.5! It doesn't matter to what you set it, it still saves monthly
14:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> are you sure you set it in the right place?
14:40:15  <Faintful> I definitely set it to yearly
14:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> invalid settings will be converted to the default value
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14:41:51  <Faintful> I'll test it once more, copied the setting from the local config
14:43:05  <Faintful> Well, for some reason the local autosave overruled the server autosave
14:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the local autosave saves on your local computer, and the server autosave saves on the server. there is no connection between these two features and they can be set to different intervals
14:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> if the server irrevocably crashes, you can create a new server from your local autosave
14:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or irrecoverably
14:47:50  <planetmaker> there are game settings, there are mapgen settings, gui settings and client-side settings :)
14:47:56  <planetmaker> and server-side settings
14:47:57  <Faintful> I'm running the server on my computer so I think they get confused
14:48:14  <planetmaker> that depends on which configs they use
14:48:21  <planetmaker> thus how exactly you run them
14:48:38  <Eddi|zuHause> two programs writing to the same autosave folder might be troublesome
14:48:48  <Eddi|zuHause> also, using the same config file
14:49:16  <planetmaker> you can run without clash dozens of openttd servers on the same physical machine. Just make sure, they reside in separate dirs, have their own config files and own savegame paths
14:49:47  <planetmaker> ^ whether that is a good thing performance-wise, is another discussion (it's not)
14:50:26  <Faintful> Why is it a hit on performance?
14:57:07  <soupy> Sweet!  Pindtown now accepts <invalid cargo>.  Now just to find an <invalid cargo factory>.
15:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what you get for switching newgrfs ingame
15:03:15  <Celestar> planetmaker: if you got 16 cores around ..
15:06:22  <soupy> Eddi|zuHause: I didn't switch NewGRFs ingame though.  I literally just genned this world.
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15:24:52  * andythenorth wonders why FIRS has two colour schemes
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15:30:33  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
15:31:14  <Alberth> hi hi
15:33:41  <planetmaker> soupy, then you use possibly Japanese (town?) NewGRF. Some versions of it are broken
15:34:02  <planetmaker> o/
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15:47:01  <soupy> planetmaker: Nope, never used that one.
15:47:50  <planetmaker> well, then obviously some other
15:49:37  <soupy> Well, yes.  :P
15:50:34  <soupy> It was really just a test map to play with cargodist and the linkgraphs.
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15:51:40  <soupy> Though I would like to know if something is borked with this set before I start a real game.
15:53:49  <soupy> I hate to say it, but I think I'm going to forego Yeti.
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16:10:47  <Terkhen> hello
16:13:03  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen :)
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16:19:26  <fjb_mobile> Moin
16:20:38  <Alberth> hi hi
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16:28:05  * andythenorth regrets the loss of ffwd
16:28:16  <andythenorth> testing industry production is
less fun now
16:28:17  <Alberth> hi hi
16:28:50  <Alberth> build sufficiently next to each other ?
16:29:06  <andythenorth> still takes time to get to the end of the month ;)
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16:41:03  <andythenorth> hmm
16:41:08  <andythenorth> what’s the switch ID limit?
16:43:55  *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:48:53  <Eddi|zuHause> 256 i think
16:49:01  <Eddi|zuHause> where NML needs some for its own purposes
16:49:12  <frosch123> nml tells you :p
16:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the number of nested levels of switches
16:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have more switches if they are not nested
16:49:54  <andythenorth> action 2 registers?
16:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> hilarious youtube videos?
16:50:30  <andythenorth> 127?
16:50:43  <andythenorth> hmm 127 is “not a lot”
16:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be 256 as well
16:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but i never actually used those
16:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> except for the specia ones above 0x100
16:52:02  <Eddi|zuHause> +l
16:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ... need to go shopping. apparently it's been another week
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16:54:22  * andythenorth wonders what happens if a processing industry doesn’t have input_multiplier_1 defined
16:54:32  <andythenorth> is the default value sensibly 0?
16:54:34  <andythenorth> or 8 or such?
16:54:53  <andythenorth> or I could cargo-cult in setting all these props to 0,0
16:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> rule number one: there are no sensible defaults
16:55:01  * andythenorth cargo-cults the 0s
16:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> default values are either copies of the original industry, or 0
16:55:34  <andythenorth> thanks :)
16:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and in either case, probably not what you want
16:56:20  <andythenorth> 0 is the desired value :)
16:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause> still, you need to set that explicitly
16:57:30  <andythenorth> done it :)
17:07:56  <andythenorth> hmm
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17:08:22  <andythenorth> returning 400 in nml to industry text cb
17:08:45  *** DanMacK [~3fee8a84@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
17:08:50  <DanMacK> Hey hey
17:09:06  <andythenorth> lo DanMacK :)
17:09:13  <andythenorth> can’t see a constant for 400
17:09:26  <andythenorth> CB_FAILED exists, but apparently I shouldn’t be failing the industry window text cb
17:10:22  <andythenorth> ¿ can I return TTD_STR_CARGO_PLURAL_NOTHING
17:13:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: CB_RESULT_NO_TEXT
17:14:00  <andythenorth> ta frosch123
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17:47:36  <Wolf01> o/
17:47:43  <andythenorth> o/
17:47:55  <Alberth> moin
17:49:41  <Wolf01> my poor coworker... he needs to change the tires of his car, buy the pellet for the next winter, buy more lego, go to the dentist, buy more lego, go to Legoland with the ITlug members, buy more lego...
17:50:04  <andythenorth> tough
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18:00:29  <planetmaker> FS#6278 seems to apply also to trains and bridges. Thus http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/fs6278.diff maybe?
18:02:00  <Samu> what is that bug report I reported that you closed?
18:02:05  <Samu> where can i still find it?
18:02:12  <Samu> i have a patchÂŽ~
18:02:34  <planetmaker> you find it in the same place as before. Just search for the closed issues or all
18:03:42  <frosch123> isn't it already implemented for trains?
18:03:54  <planetmaker> doesn't look like
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18:04:43  <planetmaker> you could check with  http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/fs6278.sav easily for the iron bridge in the centre of the viewport
18:05:05  <Samu> ah, found it
18:05:14  <planetmaker> (if your viewport is 1980x1200 :P)
18:05:50  <Alberth> please add a . to  /* Use the speed as limited by underground and orders */
18:05:58  <planetmaker> :)
18:06:14  <Samu> im submiting a patch in http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6271?string=&project=1&search_name=&only_watched=1&type%5B0%5D=&sev%5B0%5D=&pri%5B0%5D=&due%5B0%5D=&reported%5B0%5D=&cat%5B0%5D=&status%5B0%5D=closed&percent%5B0%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=
18:06:22  <Samu> omg, link size sorry
18:06:40  <Samu> do i have to request re-open again?
18:07:43  <Alberth> you think we will fix invalid problems?
18:07:55  <frosch123> planetmaker: ah, "max speed of current order" is what i remembered
18:08:02  <frosch123> bridge is new, even though it is older :p
18:08:08  <planetmaker> :)
18:08:57  <planetmaker> Honestly, I only checked for trains that it works. But the code in the other functions of CurrentMaxSpeed suggests it will work for the other vehicle types then, too
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18:09:49  <Samu> but i solved it :(
18:09:53  <Samu> why it's invalid
18:10:01  <Samu> not perfect, but it's something
18:10:57  <frosch123> planetmaker: max_speed = min(max_speed, this->current_order.GetMaxSpeed()); <- there are more redundant lines
18:11:26  <Samu> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6271/getfile/10207/Unstuck%20Ship%20when%20Leaving%20Depot.patch
18:11:27  *** Marty [~Marty@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd
18:11:31  <Samu> submitted
18:11:47  <planetmaker> true. Will remove those three, frosch123
18:12:19  <frosch123> Train::GetCurrentMaxSpeed also handles the tack_speed
18:12:28  <frosch123> so, the train case is only about stopping
18:12:40  <planetmaker> updated diff
18:12:44  <planetmaker> yup
18:13:38  <frosch123> looks fine to me :)
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18:17:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r27222 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2015-04-09 20:17:43 +0200 )
18:17:52  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6278]: Use the current maximum speed as limited by bridges, orders etc. for all vehicle types alike when considering increased smoke emissions of vehicles.
18:21:20  * planetmaker -> pub now :)
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18:21:42  <Alberth> bye
18:32:52  * andythenorth shaves the yak some more
18:32:57  <Samu> sometimes when I disable full animation in the debug version i get an error
18:33:04  <Samu> Unhandled exception at 0x00000001407BCB8B in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x0000000003EE3000.
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18:33:36  <Samu> >	openttd.exe!Blitter_32bppAnim::PaletteAnimate(const Palette & palette={...}) Line 484	C++
18:33:46  <Samu> so annoying
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18:34:40  <Samu> it's been doing this ever since I started meddling with msvc
18:34:59  <Samu> it's just that it doesn't always happen, it's random
18:38:49  <fonsinchen> Samu, attach the msvc debugger to it, wait until it happens and check the stack trace.
18:39:49  <Samu> oh, erm, okay, I'll try to do that, not familiar with those words
18:42:11  <Samu> DEBUG - Attack to process?
18:42:20  <Samu> which one is the msvc debugger?
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18:46:33  <Samu> how do i do this?
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18:48:15  <Alberth> I could suggest how, but you don't want to know
18:48:31  <Samu> ok
18:49:07  <Alberth> at least that's what you said
18:52:05  <Wolf01> sorted cats http://img-9gag-ftw.9cache.com/photo/aZxE73p_460s_v1.jpg
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18:54:27  <Alberth> :)
18:54:58  <Samu> stack trace
18:55:16  <Samu> there's a call stack
18:55:46  <Samu> a stack thread
18:56:02  <Samu> meh, what can i do with iths
18:56:05  <Samu> ths*
18:56:07  <Samu> this*
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18:58:53  <Samu> >	openttd.exe!Blitter_32bppAnim::PaletteAnimate(const Palette & palette={...}) Line 484	C++
18:59:53  <Samu> how do i pass this error to a file or so?
19:00:01  <Samu> a dump
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19:00:30  <Samu> ah, save dump as?
19:02:03  <Samu> omg 666 MB file :(
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19:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine how mad they get when a cat goes into the wrong box
19:04:44  <Samu> ok, i have the dump file, is this sufficient?
19:05:02  <Samu> quite big, even compressed
19:05:26  <Samu> what do i do now?
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19:07:50  <kamnet> @logs
19:07:50  <DorpsGek> kamnet: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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19:25:06  <glx> Samu: open the dump in with msvc
19:25:30  <V453000> OPEN THE DUMP
19:25:35  <Samu> oh, i see
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19:25:47  <Samu> minidump file summary
19:26:01  <glx> press run
19:26:49  <Samu> test - run - all tests?
19:27:04  <glx> just run it like openttd
19:28:09  <Samu> I can only Attach...
19:28:49  <Samu> there's 3 actions: Debug with Native Only
19:29:00  <Samu> Set Symbol Path
19:29:11  <Samu> Copy all to clipboard
19:29:24  <glx> debug
19:29:57  <Samu> ah, it brought me to the unhandled exception
19:30:11  <Samu> break or continue?
19:30:15  <glx> break
19:30:28  <glx> then you have the call stack
19:30:54  <Samu> i see it at the bottom middle, yes
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19:32:28  <Samu> let me copy this
19:32:32  <Samu> as text
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19:33:25  <andythenorth> ha ha ha
19:33:31  <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdv5nylzk
19:33:35  <andythenorth> quite a lot of FIRS secondary industries feature ‘boost'
19:33:42  <andythenorth> and quite a lot of them have totally wrong values
19:33:46  <Samu> is that of any use?
19:33:54  <Alberth> haha andythenorth :)
19:34:13  <andythenorth> all that effort delivering all required cargos
19:34:18  <andythenorth> in some cases, for zero benefit :)
19:35:17  <frosch123> placebo gameplay?
19:35:56  <Alberth> good thing I usually never bother with supplies :p
19:36:32  <Samu> i'm sending the dump to onedrive
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19:39:57  <kamnet> Zero benefit, andythenorth? Why?
19:41:58  <andythenorth> because the boost value is set to 0 or otherwise too low
19:42:03  <andythenorth> only in a few cases
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19:44:45  <kamnet> I like them because it keeps me busy, but if they're not really needed I'm sure I could dedicate those resources elsewhere.
19:45:20  <andythenorth> the bug will be fixed in FIRS 2
19:46:13  <kamnet> TIRS for FIRS?
19:46:22  <andythenorth> boom boom
19:46:33  <andythenorth> it’s a Mad World
19:58:35  * andythenorth does a naughty
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20:26:05  <V453000> short post for dem forumz
20:26:35  <andythenorth> can haz workflow
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20:32:29  <V453000> ayez captain
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20:34:44  <Samu> file synced
20:34:47  <Samu> https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!804&authkey=!ALZ9KwDForw_rqw&ithint=file%2cdmp
20:35:18  <Samu> glx
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21:21:25  <Supercheese> Aah, managed to get Farm Supplies and Engineering Supplies to every requesting industry on the map
21:21:56  <frosch123> send the save to andy :)
21:21:58  <kamnet> Huzz!
21:22:02  <frosch123> he doesn't believe its possible
21:22:15  <Supercheese> I use a lot of airships
21:22:36  <frosch123> andy loves ships? :p
21:22:43  <Supercheese> also it's only a 256x512 map
21:23:23  <kamnet> FLAP - FIRS Loves AeroPlanes  :D
21:23:24  <Supercheese> oh wait I missed one
21:24:29  <kamnet> Left you another PM Supercheese
21:26:26  <Supercheese> Well, Av8 has 4 seaplanes, two of which are amphibious and can fit either floats or wheeled gear
21:26:46  <Supercheese> but the most famous, the various models of Pan Am Clipper, are absent
21:27:51  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:34:29  <kamnet> We need MOAR SEAPLANES
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21:37:29  <kamnet> *ponders* If planes have floats on them can we animate water spray when they land?
21:38:49  <frosch123> most likely you can in the same way as fish
21:39:19  <frosch123> planes know when they land, pikka used that for the inclination for years
21:39:41  <Supercheese> Yeah should be possible
21:40:04  <Supercheese> If you can draw it, it can be coded is generally the rule. Generally.
21:53:30  <Supercheese> Oh good grief
21:53:50  <Supercheese> I think I know why I was having issues with the name property last night, it needs to be defined AFTER the override property
21:54:06  <Supercheese> may need to edit the wiki to clarify that
21:54:16  <planetmaker> oh?
21:54:21  <Supercheese> Yeppers
21:55:32  <frosch123> the override property should say very clearly, that it must be the first one :p
21:55:38  <Supercheese> indeed
21:55:46  <Supercheese> it now seems obvious but it was not immediately so
21:55:53  <frosch123> it's nothing special about the name, it's special about the substitute/override :p
21:55:58  <Supercheese> aye
21:56:08  <Supercheese> was too sleepy to figure that one out last night -_-
21:56:43  <planetmaker> nml should probably re-arrange that silently
21:56:52  <planetmaker> yet it doesn't (yet) do so
21:56:58  <frosch123> not possible with "if" and stuff :p
21:57:07  <Supercheese> Yep, confirmed that was the problem
21:57:11  <Supercheese> override must needs be set first
21:58:34  <Supercheese> Well, I will probably migrate the newly added airports to their own entries
21:58:39  <Supercheese> get them better exposure
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21:59:18  <frosch123> same applies for stations, industries, industry tiles and houses :p
21:59:30  <frosch123> oh, and objects
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22:00:07  <frosch123> and railtypes
22:01:12  <Supercheese> It doesn't seem to actually explicitly say so in the specs though
22:01:40  <Supercheese> ah, it does for industries
22:01:54  <Supercheese> and houses... I will add it to airports
22:03:05  <frosch123> for railtypes and objects it's the label/classid you have to set first
22:04:19  <Supercheese> *sigh* it's the little things that getcha...
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22:34:51  <supermop> yo
22:35:54  <Supercheese> aloha
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22:41:17  <Supercheese> Oh now each airport can have its own dates of introduction
22:41:21  <Supercheese> hmmm
22:45:27  <Elukka> did 2cc's current iteration remove the old feature where trains would have barely any running costs while standing still?
22:45:58  <Elukka> or did i break things somehow
22:47:41  <kamnet> It may not have implemented that yet.
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22:51:06  <Elukka> hmm. might have to go to the old 2cc for the time being then
22:52:03  <Supercheese> Ha, why does this page https://wiki.openttd.org/Sampson_U52 list Real Life equivalents as the Concorde... and it has listed that ever since the page was created
22:52:57  <Supercheese> the other languages have it correct, strange
22:53:14  <Supercheese> seems most of the aircraft pages are similarly broken
22:53:36  <Elukka> hm. though it has nicer wagons
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22:53:50  <Elukka> tradeoff between wagons and better running costs, then
22:54:03  <Supercheese> Ah, perhaps a wiki template is broken
22:55:44  <Supercheese> Yes, a template is indeed broken
22:56:49  <Supercheese> there we go
23:05:50  <Supercheese> Hmmm, should I only enable the airship stations if Av8 is loaded...?
23:10:00  <supermop> hmm
23:10:28  <supermop> is there an ogfx aircraft? and could it add the disaster zepplin as a vehicle?
23:10:54  <supermop> people may like them in modern era for rough remote helicopter stations
23:12:08  <Supercheese> I believe the general consensus is just, "Use Av8, nothing else even comes close."
23:13:22  <Supercheese> You could try and make another aircraft grf... but you'd always just be playing second fiddle
23:14:33  <supermop> i use ogfx trains on occasion
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23:45:33  <Samu> let me take a look at av8
23:52:46  <Sylf> Elukka, lowering the running cost overall for the time being isn't good enough either?
23:52:59  <Sylf> via NewGRF parameter
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23:56:40  <Elukka> oh, it's good enough, i was just considering which option is better
23:57:08  <Elukka> it's still the set i'm gonna use, and i'll probably go for the newer one for the nicer wagons
23:57:24  <Elukka> i just wanted to make sure it wasn't supposed to have the feature and i just had a grf conflict or something
23:58:37  <Elukka> got a lot of grfs to update since i haven't played in a couple years

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