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Log for #openttd on 3rd May 2015:
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00:19:44  <luaduck> is there a reason why we don't have a cvar for disabling road reconstruction?
00:20:37  <Eddi|zuHause> is "we have too many settings" enough?
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00:37:06  <Supercheese> more like "way too damn many settings, especially if you include the .cfg-only settings; but hey users do love their settings"
00:39:16  <glx> cfg only are modifiable in console :)
00:47:09  <Supercheese> or, well, by editing the .cfg in your text editor of choice
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01:46:15  <Flygon> To be fair
01:46:24  <Flygon> Having the Road Reconstruction thing exist is pretty frustrating
01:48:44  <DarkenMoon> It's annoying when people new to the game use it, thinking it helps cities grow. So they keep using it over and over, spamming the news ticker.
01:51:48  <Flygon> Aye
01:52:02  <Flygon> If we're that terrified over the whole settings thing
01:52:03  <Flygon> Why not
01:52:10  <Flygon> Make it a variable adjustable by NewGRF
01:52:41  <Flygon> So that NewGRFs can add the setting inside the NewGRF settings for what happens if you click "Road Reconstruction"
01:52:47  <Flygon> Or if the Road Recon. setting even exists
01:53:00  <Flygon> Because clearly the solution to the Too Many Settings problem
01:53:10  <Flygon> Is to create more convoluted ways to access the settings
01:53:12  <Flygon> Peace out, bros
01:53:16  * Flygon goes shopping
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02:17:02  <DarkenMoon> You can never have enough settings.
02:17:19  <DarkenMoon> The more customization the better/
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03:35:47  <TartarusMkII> Hi guys, wanted to know if anyone could direct me to any screen shots of nice rail layouts? Just for inspiration? <
03:35:49  <TartarusMkII> <3* bleh
03:41:27  <Sylf> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive  Almost 300 screenshots from past 9 years of playing
03:43:55  <TartarusMkII> These are replays?
03:44:13  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/bridgemaster2.png This isn't rail, but do you like Bridges?
03:45:09  <TartarusMkII> oh wow that's very cool to see
03:45:31  <TartarusMkII> I love the 'elevated' rail through the middle like that too haha
03:45:48  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland2041cloverleaf.png All my good shots are road shots x.x
03:46:28  <TartarusMkII> oh that looks gorgeous!
03:46:30  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland2020hellabigmetropolis.png
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03:49:11  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottddenvercomplex.png
03:49:48  <TartarusMkII> What are the box like things extending from the city out over the tracks?
03:50:09  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdquadcomplete.png
03:50:18  <TartarusMkII> They look like walk ways for passengers, but how do they work in OTTD?
03:50:35  <TartarusMkII> And thanks again for these, fantastic
03:50:35  <Flygon> Oh
03:50:39  <Flygon> They're part of a custom GRF
03:50:46  <Flygon> I wish I completed any of these games
03:50:48  <TartarusMkII> I figured they were, but I am curious
03:51:59  <Flygon> Oh wow, my Dropbox has some really random junk
03:52:11  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/pecoshiningsheet.png I should really get a goahead on that ROM hack someday, for the lulz
03:52:26  <TartarusMkII> hehe
03:53:05  <Flygon> You've played RO?
03:53:41  <TartarusMkII> What I am trying to figure out is the most (basic) efficient way to set up stations to pick up materials and then have them join a double (two way) rail line to a place to drop it off. Like, a bunch of iron ore to a foundry for example.
03:54:00  <TartarusMkII> I want the stations that collect the ore to basically join the artery, and not have to be a part of it directly.
03:54:12  <TartarusMkII> I know I have to use a tunnel or bridge to cross over, but I'm having trouble designing it for some reason lol
03:55:10  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/qrttstreetrun.jpg I request this as official OTTD feature
03:55:20  <Flygon> Tartarus: Oh
03:55:23  <Flygon> That's easy
03:55:28  <TartarusMkII> Yea I am still a newbling
03:55:28  <Flygon> Er, wait
03:55:30  <Flygon> Yeah
03:55:33  <Flygon> You just build a bridge over
03:56:06  <TartarusMkII> Also looking for the most efficint way to build the station and its buffer
03:56:08  <Flygon> And whatever you do
03:56:20  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/cloverleafexplain.png Don't use this for reference
03:56:42  <TartarusMkII> Doesn't that only work with cars anyway
03:56:43  <TartarusMkII> ?
03:56:59  <TartarusMkII> Hmm, but why do you suggest not doing a clover leaf?
03:57:09  <Flygon> Because I drew it really badly
03:57:23  <TartarusMkII> oh it looks fine!
03:57:28  <TartarusMkII> Just trying to understand the part in the upper right
03:57:37  <Flygon> Uuuh
03:57:40  <Flygon> Try not to x.x
03:57:48  <TartarusMkII> hahah
03:57:51  <Flygon> Anyway! Uhm
03:57:55  <Flygon> For an efficient station
03:58:02  <Flygon> Do you know what roll on, roll out is?
03:58:17  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/england1921london.png Also random beauty shot
03:58:32  <TartarusMkII> Yea that's usually what I do, but still looking for an ideal amount of tracks,  length, and the position of everything.
03:58:43  <Flygon> Well
03:58:44  <TartarusMkII> oh this is great thanks
03:58:49  <Flygon> In terms of capacity
03:58:56  <Flygon> RoRo is the best you really can get
03:59:11  <Flygon> One track flowing into 2 platforms, and then merging back into one track
03:59:20  <Flygon> There's obvious extensions to this
03:59:25  <TartarusMkII> mhmm
03:59:33  <Flygon> But the basic philosophy doesn't chage
03:59:35  <Flygon> change, even
04:00:36  <TartarusMkII> Does your mod for stations add, or replace stations?
04:01:04  <TartarusMkII> I am using  a bunch of openGFX+ things, but no station, also that industry one.. er.. let me look.
04:01:07  <Flygon> Add
04:01:29  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdroroterminus.png
04:01:30  <TartarusMkII> Do you recall what you're using for stations? looks so kewl.
04:01:47  <TartarusMkII> oh thats a good pic.
04:01:51  <Flygon> Dutch Stations (and addons)
04:02:30  <TartarusMkII> I'm using FIRS industry, NUTS unrealistic trains (still unsure if I like it) and then OpenGFX+ trees, airports, landscape, and trains for the hell of it.
04:02:48  <TartarusMkII> Would you care to suggest an OpenGFX+ train set? I'm interested in balance mostly.
04:03:13  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/usaopenttdjeffcityofframps1940.png
04:03:18  <Flygon> I use the 2CC Trainset
04:04:06  <TartarusMkII> What is it like? Also, why did you lay out roads that way? To cities sprawl out along your specifications? The wiki makes it sound as if, if you don't make roads exactly how they would plan to, they just don't continue?
04:05:15  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/wtfudoingutorrent.png I ended up switching to qbBittorrent <_>
04:05:19  <Flygon> Uhh
04:05:25  <Flygon> I lay them that way because it's easier for me
04:05:30  <Flygon> I disable towns growing their roads normally
04:05:37  <Flygon> It'd be neat to do a 16 player OTTD game of that USA map
04:05:43  <TartarusMkII> nice windows95 theme lol
04:05:44  <Flygon> With additional towns put in
04:06:00  <Flygon> Where one of the 16 players essentially acts as the Federal Government
04:06:06  <Flygon> So that guy builds the roads :B
04:06:12  <TartarusMkII> haha that's a cool idea
04:06:13  <Flygon> Win2K theme actually
04:06:22  <TartarusMkII> so if they don't build their own roads, how do they expand? do they depend on you?
04:06:35  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/xptflood.jpg I love my Dropbox :D
04:06:46  <Flygon> Well... think of it this way
04:06:52  <Flygon> Government guy has Magic Bulldozer powers
04:06:52  <TartarusMkII> haha precarious as hell
04:07:11  <Flygon> I didn't get much further on my idea than that
04:07:49  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/cutezigzagoon.jpg So instead have a cute pic
04:08:15  <TartarusMkII> Awr so fuzzy
04:08:29  <TartarusMkII> but even in the normal game, if you disable towns building their own roads, how d'they expand?
04:09:21  <Flygon> You build the roads!
04:09:32  <TartarusMkII> that's interesting
04:09:38  <Flygon> I'd love a USA scenario, actually
04:09:42  <Flygon> Or Australia scenario
04:09:49  <TartarusMkII> so in theory then, even if they can build their own roads, if you add onto them, they will expand buildings outwards normally?
04:09:53  <Flygon> That basically starts from when the countries were colonized by the Europeans
04:10:02  <Flygon> Tart: I think so
04:10:05  <TartarusMkII> Cool
04:10:19  <Flygon> And,... yeah, But the big issue with such a scenario is the lack of ability for scenario scripts to found towns
04:10:28  <Flygon> Also the lack of pre-1700 NewGRFs
04:10:47  <TartarusMkII> Hm.
04:11:36  <TartarusMkII> I'd make a futuristic set, as if corporations are settling a new island created from a volcano or some such. Planes could be sci fi and serve different purposes, helis too, all sorts of weird stuf like that.
04:11:41  <kamnet> Nobody watching the fight of the century?
04:12:01  <TartarusMkII> Don't you have to pay to see it? or nah?>
04:12:50  <kamnet> Well in theory, you do.
04:13:13  <TartarusMkII> XD I see
04:13:30  <kamnet> However, I have a very strict policy of never paying for anything that Floyd Mayweather, Jr. does.
04:14:19  <TartarusMkII> LOL
04:14:30  <Flygon> kamnet
04:14:36  <Flygon> I'm actually a Flygon irl
04:14:45  <Flygon> And lemme tell you
04:14:52  * Supercheese uses a Master Ball. Flygon was caught!
04:14:53  <Flygon> They tried to get me to join fighting
04:14:53  <kamnet> I will pay to see fighters. I will never pay to see a coward who beats women.
04:14:57  <Flygon> But I'm too peaceful for that stuff
04:15:01  <Flygon> Supercheese: Nice try
04:15:04  <Flygon> I captured myself!
04:15:07  <Supercheese> O_o
04:15:09  <Flygon> And now I can't be recaught
04:15:10  <kamnet> lol
04:15:16  <Flygon> And then I ate the Pokeball
04:15:31  * Supercheese edits his savegame with pokesav
04:15:35  <Supercheese> what now?
04:16:33  <Supercheese> reminds me of that one whiscash, ate the damn master ball
04:16:35  <Supercheese> was like, wtf
04:16:54  <Supercheese> where did that random dude get a master ball anyhow
04:16:57  <Flygon> That was my cousin
04:17:04  <Flygon> Oh, he won it in the lottery
04:17:48  <Supercheese> wow, on in a billion chance
04:17:50  <Supercheese> one*
04:18:26  <TartarusMkII> I'm not sure if I am looking at the right"2cc" set.
04:18:31  <TartarusMkII> Is it TrainsInNML?
04:18:38  <TartarusMkII> And anyone else have reccomendations for train sets?
04:19:24  <Supercheese> UKRS or NARS
04:19:29  <Supercheese> both excellent
04:19:46  <Supercheese> UKRS also has an addon set
04:20:45  <TartarusMkII> How's the balance on UKRS?
04:20:46  <TartarusMkII> oh, and is it OpenGFX+?
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04:27:32  <TartarusMkII> 0_o
04:27:39  <TartarusMkII> No Russian city names!
04:29:32  <Supercheese> There's a newgrf for that on Bananas
04:30:01  <TartarusMkII> Bananas?
04:30:46  <Supercheese> Online Content service
04:30:54  <Supercheese> Newgrf options -> Check online content
04:31:08  <Supercheese> use the search box and put in "Russian"
04:31:51  <TartarusMkII> oh, it's named Bananas? lol
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04:36:45  <Supercheese> Yep
04:36:57  <Supercheese> https://bananas.openttd.org/en
04:37:01  <Supercheese> "Base graphics/sound And Newgrfs And Noais And Scenarios"
04:37:11  <Supercheese> terribly contribed, but most cool acronyms are
04:37:14  <Supercheese> contrived*
04:37:16  <TartarusMkII> That's awesome!
04:37:18  <TartarusMkII> XD
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04:38:07  <TartarusMkII> Tloo-Zaraza's Russian Town Names contains over 3,000 names? But the unsigned Belarusian has 206. I wonder why? XD
04:55:43  <TartarusMkII> A good deal of the mods I downloaded simply do not work, or have nullified parameters
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04:56:10  <Supercheese> A couple are outdated and broken
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04:56:25  <Supercheese> but most should be functional
04:57:04  <TartarusMkII> Well for example, the Russian Town Names NewGRF does not have any parameters to set, and it doesn't seem to change anything..
04:57:16  <TartarusMkII> It seems simply benign. It carries no instructions, or a forum thread 'r anything..
04:57:45  <TartarusMkII> and I was wrong about what I said before, this little GRF is the only one that does not seem to work
05:04:06  <kamnet> Town Name sets work by first loading the NewGRF before you start the game, and then going into Game Settings and selecting the language. The NewGRF will always be the very first entry, above the "---" and the rest of the languages underneath the bar
05:04:55  <Supercheese> Load the town name grf, then go to Game Options and set the town names there, then generate a new game
05:07:04  <TartarusMkII> Hm, I don't see that.. Do I have to be in a game first?..
05:07:23  <kamnet> No, from main menu
05:07:41  <TartarusMkII> Let me restart the game, maybe
05:08:10  <kamnet> I just loaded it, in Game Options you will have a choice of "Russian (Real and Generated, Cyrillic)", "Russian (real, Cyrillic)" and "Russian (real, Latin)"
05:08:15  <TartarusMkII> Nah.. in my NewGRF settings, this mod is included in the list of active NewGRFs
05:08:48  <TartarusMkII> Oh okay now it works, it took a restart and viewing the newGRF settings. Thanks!
05:09:04  <kamnet> You have to load it in active newgrfs first from the main menu, then load which version you want from game options
05:09:08  <kamnet> Awesome!
05:09:33  <TartarusMkII> Ah damn, the city names are just all ???'s.
05:09:43  <Supercheese> need to set a Cyrillic font probably
05:09:48  <TartarusMkII> How am I to know what font I  need? I already know I can see Cyrillic on this PC..
05:10:11  <TartarusMkII> Is that to say the whole game needs to be set to RU?
05:10:14  <Supercheese> probably <YourUsername>\Documents\Openttd\openttd.cfg if you are on Windows
05:10:23  <Supercheese> that will have your font options
05:10:35  <Supercheese> be sure to close the game first before opening that file
05:10:36  <TartarusMkII> oh wait , no
05:10:54  <TartarusMkII> That's not the issue. I went back to Game Options, and the Town Names is (Undefined String)
05:11:04  <TartarusMkII> Like, the RU names as a NewGRF is not 'staying'
05:12:59  <TartarusMkII> I moved it up in the list, but it still does not work.
05:13:13  <TartarusMkII> Going back, it is undefined again.
05:21:00  <kamnet> are you loading the newgrf from the main menu, or within the game?
05:21:10  <TartarusMkII> main menu
05:23:26  <kamnet> Okay, I can verify the issues
05:23:48  <TartarusMkII> I'm trying some other similar GRFs too
05:24:03  <kamnet> Cyrillic is loading ???, Latin works. But if you quit the game and start a new one, it goes all wonky again and Game Options changes to "Undefined"
05:24:23  <kamnet> Going back into newgrf settings, saving the configuration again, and then going back into Game Options restores it
05:24:34  <kamnet> I'm guessing the NewGRF is broken.
05:24:46  <TartarusMkII> Makes sense, thanks for double checking.
05:25:28  <Supercheese> you could try changing fonts: https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_troubleshooting#My_User_Interface_is_too_small_to_read_.2F_My_font_is_unreadable_or_faulty
05:25:46  <TartarusMkII> I can't read full on Russian, so my game's localization must stay in Eng
05:25:51  <TartarusMkII> if that matters =v
05:25:57  <kamnet> Okay then you'll want to select Latin
05:26:00  <TartarusMkII> Also, how do I delete NewGRFs?
05:26:02  <Supercheese> ^ that
05:26:13  <TartarusMkII> But doesn't it still reset when you go in and out of the game?
05:26:43  <TartarusMkII> the Ukranian one does not work either, I have a feeling it has to do with fonts and not the GRFs
05:26:50  <kamnet> Yes. But my solution fixes it.
05:27:20  <TartarusMkII> I notice it's losing all of the town names, not just the one that didn't work.. let me try your solution.
05:27:38  <kamnet> Hmmmmm
05:28:55  <kamnet> You're right, it is doing that on all town name newgrfs
05:29:45  <TartarusMkII> I think some of these -are- old, though. Err, if not all of them..
05:31:29  <kamnet> It's doing it with new town names that I've made straight from NML's town names template.
05:31:48  <TartarusMkII> ah.
05:31:53  <kamnet> I don't think it's the NewGRFs, unless the spec has changed and they're all missing somethign now.
05:32:08  <TartarusMkII> By the way, what is a reasonable max map height?
05:32:23  <TartarusMkII> I've read that snow is supposed to form at heights, but i never see it..
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05:59:24  <kamnet> I set mine at 255. You can set snow line height to whatever you like.
06:00:25  <Flygon> I do kinda wish we had heightmaps for water
06:00:32  <Flygon> As in
06:00:33  <Flygon> Say
06:00:40  <Flygon> 127 is the 'ground level' height
06:00:46  <TartarusMkII> oddly for me snow is greyed out at 15 and I never see it.
06:00:52  <Flygon> And there's no 'river/lake' tiles, and no 'ocean' tiles
06:00:57  <Flygon> BUT
06:00:59  <Flygon> There is water tiles
06:01:07  <Flygon> And the tiles below the water can have different heights
06:01:20  <Flygon> In effect, allowing for a far more interesting water geography
06:01:36  <Flygon> And also making ships fitting certain depths only be a thing
06:02:56  <Flygon> Please someone tell me I'm not insane x.x
06:03:02  <Flygon> Because I think this idea is utterly brilliant
06:03:16  <Flygon> It would need a completely new method of rendering water tho
06:03:58  <kamnet> If it's greyed out, then you must be on temperate and not arctic
06:05:17  <kamnet> The only thing water depth would really affect is placement of oil rigs, though. They probably shouldn't be in shallow water. but that's probably a case of TMWFTLE
06:05:49  <Flygon> Well...
06:05:50  <Flygon> It's more
06:06:01  <Flygon> While water depth wouldn't seem all that useful with the current sets of... everything
06:06:17  <Flygon> It does allow for a much more interesting future with content developed
06:06:30  <Flygon> And kinda help solve the problem of rivers being different to ocean
06:06:43  <Flygon> (because, y'know. They'd be the same type of tile instead of two seperate types)
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06:07:09  <Flygon> It'd also allow for diagonal rivers, like how current oceans work
06:08:57  <Flygon> And, most interestingly
06:09:03  <Flygon> It'd allow for much more interesting looking water
06:09:15  <Flygon> Imagine a map of Hawaii
06:09:21  <Flygon> There's not much land
06:09:25  <Flygon> But under the water?
06:09:30  <Flygon> There's underwater mountains!
06:09:38  <Flygon> Imagine the visual feast of seeing that represented in OpenTTD
06:10:02  <Flygon> I can't imagine it being too hard...
06:10:07  <Flygon> A transparent textured tile...
06:10:24  <Flygon> Each height level below where water is set to be for a certain level going darker and darker as you get deeper...
06:10:51  <kamnet> Rivers should be a different type of water than ocean
06:11:04  <Flygon> As in?
06:11:55  <kamnet> rivers are narrow channels that are constantly moving. ocean is deeper and moves more slowly, can evn be stagnant.
06:13:09  <kamnet> There's nothing to really be gained from an underwater level, though. other than gas/oill deposits and fishing, theres no mining or other type of industry to be done. there's no underwater cities either.
06:13:28  <kamnet> Yeah, looks really interesting, but tha's about it.
06:18:48  <kamnet> I think the town names thing is a bug in 1.5.0.  Just downloaded r27264 and it works normally
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06:19:13  <Flygon> Hmm
06:19:17  <Flygon> Well
06:19:21  <Flygon> There's two ways you can tackle it
06:19:22  <Alberth> moin
06:19:26  <Flygon> Having Water-types
06:19:32  <Flygon> One being river tile, one being ocean tyle
06:19:36  <Flygon> tile*
06:19:51  <kamnet> Good morning Alberth. Just disccussing a bug in 1.5.0 that looks like is already fixed.
06:19:53  <Flygon> Or you can implement a dynamically calcuated water system feature into OpenTTD
06:20:04  <Flygon> I suspect the former would be significantly less work and significantly more sane
06:20:13  <Flygon> But I still think it would be very useful for ship GRFs
06:20:18  <Alberth> k, those are the best kind of bugs
06:20:28  <Flygon> eg. gigantuan oil tankers needing a spare depth below them of 3 height levels or someting
06:21:04  <Alberth> euhm, squid and fish make such a difference
06:21:06  <kamnet> Dunno how significant it is, though, if it warrants rolling out 1.5.1 already
06:21:19  <Flygon> Wait, how?
06:21:57  <kamnet> certain FISH ships have reduced speeds on different waters
06:22:54  <Flygon> I was thinking more
06:23:06  <Flygon> Total incapability of running an oil tanker over a sandbar
06:23:40  <Alberth> you don't need 127 height levels for that imho
06:24:05  <Flygon> Okay, let's completely rethink this
06:24:10  <Flygon> A map has 255 height levels
06:24:14  <Flygon> Independant of both land and water
06:24:30  <Flygon> Ocean style water can occour at 32 tiles high
06:24:34  <Flygon> Or 74 tiles high
06:24:38  <Flygon> And flow down tiles like a river
06:24:56  <Flygon> Let's think of this creatively...
06:25:08  <Flygon> Say a player wanted to make an artificial lake for some reason
06:25:17  <Alberth> why waste 74 levels?  you only want to differentiate 2-3 classes
06:25:25  <Flygon> He creates the pit
06:25:55  <Flygon> Then uses a tool to autofill to a maximum height on the z axis with water
06:26:01  <Flygon> Bam, a lake
06:26:28  <Flygon> It also feels like a method of creating more flexible rivers, too
06:26:43  <Flygon> Rather than them being stored internally as taking up an entire tile
06:26:49  <Flygon> They can functionally take half a tile
06:26:56  <Flygon> With, say, a railway track taking the other half
06:27:20  <Flygon> This means there would be no more ocean at the lowest height level
06:27:26  <Flygon> This means water can occour at any height level
06:27:51  <Flygon> And be far more malleable than the current way water works
06:27:52  <kamnet> Alberth: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6293
06:28:04  <Flygon> eg. the creation of far more natural looking lakes
06:28:17  <kamnet> Summary of discussion a few misn ago, I know it's not your area but just FYI
06:28:28  <Flygon> And the possible gameplay additional too by future GRF developers
06:34:52  <Alberth> I don't see a particular commit that could fix that kamnet, so I must be missing something, most likely
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06:36:05  <Alberth> you could try bisecting to the fix, if you want to know
06:37:53  <Alberth> Flygon: sounds mostly like an extension of the scenario editor
06:38:14  <Flygon> I was thinking world generation too
06:38:17  <Flygon> And gameplay
06:38:29  <Flygon> And, amongst other interesting things
06:38:46  <Flygon> It could allow land tiles to be at the exact same height level as oceans
06:38:59  <Flygon> Without workarounds that involve using river/channel tiles
06:39:32  <Flygon> And, more interestingly
06:39:37  <Flygon> Allow tiles to go below the ocean
06:39:44  <Alberth> isn't that just about flooding?
06:39:45  <Flygon> eg. an actual proper chunnel going on
06:40:02  <Flygon> Because the ocean is no longer fixed at being the lowest height level possible
06:40:49  <Flygon> It's more... flooding wouldn't 'need' to be a feature, because each tile is able to be defined if it's got water in it or not
06:41:27  <Flygon> I'm not saying that this sort of thing would need to be applied retroactively to older savegames
06:41:54  <Flygon> I'm saying that it could be a very very interesting feature for newer savegames, should the player choose to play a game with such alternate water mechanics
06:42:04  <Alberth> the main reason why water is at the bottom is because that's how world are generated
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06:42:26  <Flygon> I kniw
06:42:30  <Flygon> know, even
06:42:39  <Alberth> Flygon: you cannot have 2 forms of water, the old form must be convertable to the new form
06:43:26  <Flygon> So there's no possible method of adding a flag to the savegame that says "Uses 'Standard' Water" or "Uses 'Enhanced' Water"?
06:43:51  <Alberth> so what's basically missing, is a way to express you want water at other tiles than at level 0
06:44:15  <Alberth> the flag is not the problem, the mechanics of handling both cases is the problem
06:44:30  <Alberth> it doubles maintenance effort
06:44:43  <Flygon> Hmm
06:45:07  <Alberth> code is changing all the time, new features must work in both forms, etc
06:45:16  <Flygon> I'm guessing this's going to end up in the "It'd be neat to have, but nobody's going to want to touch it with a barge pole" pile, isn't it
06:45:39  <Flygon> Despite it's ability to sort out a lot of gameplay concerns (eg. underwater tunnels)
06:46:15  <Alberth> you need someone who is interested in the problem sufficiently to spend 5 years on it, or so
06:46:46  <Flygon> Unless I win the lottery and donate 0,000AUD, I presume
06:47:03  <Alberth> no
06:47:30  <Flygon> How much bribery would be required?
06:47:39  <Alberth> unlike what many people think, money is not solving the problem
06:47:40  <Flygon> I mean, if bribery is a game function?... :B
06:47:45  <Flygon> Hmm
06:47:54  <Flygon> Lack of motivated workforce?
06:47:58  <Alberth> say you have 100,000  what then?
06:48:04  <Flygon> Uhm
06:48:05  <Flygon> Well
06:48:07  <Flygon> I'm insane
06:48:10  <kamnet> ,000/year isn't really enough to buy somebody's time.
06:48:15  <Flygon> But I don't really wanna buy a fancy car <_>
06:48:26  <Flygon> kemnet: It is if they're Indian!
06:48:29  <Flygon> srsly tho, point taken
06:48:44  <Flygon> Arf
06:48:48  <Flygon> Sorry if I've been annoying x.x
06:48:53  <Flygon> It's just that, in the end
06:49:05  <Alberth> np
06:49:06  <Flygon> OpenTTD lacking water working 'properly' in a 3D space has bugged me for years
06:49:09  <kamnet> Oh, well, if you want to hire a programmer from India... :D
06:49:15  <Flygon> kamnet: Dear god no
06:49:19  <Flygon> I've worked in IT
06:49:28  <Flygon> I know how terrible Indian programmers tend to be
06:49:28  <Flygon> >_>
06:49:37  <kamnet> Quantity, not quality
06:50:11  <Alberth> the bottom line is that you need a skilled programmer interested in solving the problem
06:50:40  <supermop> i will add any feature you want for the low price of: 4 years of tuition for a CS Bachelors program plus living stipend, plus market rate of C++ dev in NYC +10% for as many years as it takes to add the feature
06:50:42  <kamnet> Now maybe if you gave that money to a budding programmer who is in college, that money could be significant.
06:50:55  <Alberth> and 'skilled' isn't even that interesting, as long as the person wants to learn
06:51:39  <Alberth> in my view, open source is a large play garden where people learn things
06:51:57  <Alberth> but you need time and dedication for something of that scale
06:52:07  <Flygon> I did once try to pick up the art of coding
06:52:27  <kamnet> Seriously though, if I ever hit the lotto for a huge, life-changing prize, I'd very seriously consider giving some to the devs simply to thank them.
06:52:40  <Flygon> It says measures as to how terrible I am that not only did I find disassembling 68k programs less confusing than descipering Java (yet I still came out near the top of the Java class...)
06:52:47  <Flygon> That my Avisynth scripts somehow caused flamewars
06:52:54  <Flygon> Due to my programming practices
06:53:58  <Alberth> assembly language programming does have its merits :)
06:54:16  <Flygon> Yeah. For one thing, it's easier to desciper than Java
06:54:20  <Flygon> Fuck x86 ASM btw
06:54:48  <Alberth> I guess you can read NFO?
06:55:07  <Flygon> Haven't tried yet
06:55:20  <Flygon> If I wasn't lazy, I probably would or something
06:55:21  <Alberth> I tried that a few times, and fail hopelessly :(
06:55:36  <Flygon> I'd love to see more early Australian locos in the 2CC set... but that also means I'd need to be a good artist
06:55:42  <Flygon> Which's a shame
06:55:53  <Flygon> Because I got this book of Australian locos from the 1850s through to the 1990
06:56:07  <Flygon> And it documents every single Australian loco design ever <_>
06:56:13  <Alberth> I believe you can all do that, but you don't learn stuff like that in a few months
06:56:13  <Flygon> At least, of which was known in 1995
06:56:17  <Flygon> Inc. all the technical details
06:56:22  <kamnet> I've studied and forgotten NFO three ties now.
06:56:36  <Flygon> kamnet: Just like me and 68k :D
06:56:41  <Flygon> Also, funny story...
06:56:50  <Alberth> you probably need to use it everyday  kamnet :)
06:56:58  <Flygon> Friend of mine tried to teach me how to 68k by helping disassemble part of Shining Force
06:57:09  <Flygon> Specifically, the subroutine that handles level-ups
06:57:23  <kamnet> Indeed, Alberth. I know it while I'm doing it every day, but life gets buys and I have to set it aside and I forget it after a few months.
06:57:40  <Flygon> The guy that was tutoring me had disassembled a significant part of Shining Force II, and assumed the level up routine code for the first game in the series worked the same way (same engine)
06:58:05  <Flygon> It didn't. So we spent 3-4 hours trying to figure out why I kept giving wrong answers to shit, until it turned out Climax/Camelot's programmers are just utterly insane
06:58:19  <Alberth> haha :)
06:58:28  <Flygon> We were trying to find the function that limits the level caps of characters in the game
06:59:05  <Flygon> Shining Force II (for promoted charactes... won't get into that, so, we'll keep the story simple) did this sanely, by having a single byte for the game to reference when levelling up
06:59:52  <Flygon> The byte was set to 63 (Hex, 99 Dec), and the subroutine basically went "IF the character hits 100 experience points, but is the level of the byte set here, don't display the level up message, don't change the level, and roll the experience back down to 0"
07:00:30  <Flygon> Lemme find my hacking notes, because... the way Shining Force I's level routine worked did this in an insane, stupid, way that required referencing 3 seperate bytes that were all set to the same number
07:00:33  <Alberth> makes sense
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07:02:45  <Flygon> Found the notes
07:02:55  <Flygon> Okay, so
07:03:09  <Flygon> This's going to be VERY hard to explain
07:03:15  <Flygon> So, basically
07:03:22  <Flygon> There's three bytes, the three of them set to 63 (99)
07:03:46  <Flygon> The subroutine has three seperate functions inside it, each checking a seperate byte
07:04:09  <Flygon> One part of the subroutine is to check what level to stop displaying the "x has leveled up!" message
07:04:25  <Flygon> Another part of the subroutine set the level cap, also checking a seperate byte
07:04:33  <Flygon> And the third part, to make this a complete clusterfuck
07:05:19  <Flygon> Is what level the character hits to start advancing to the level cap
07:05:20  <Flygon> Or...
07:05:26  <Flygon> The game checks if the character is already 99
07:05:33  <Flygon> So if the character is 99
07:05:49  <Flygon> It checks a seperate byte to see what level the character should advance to if the character is level 99
07:05:53  <Flygon> Which is... of course, 99
07:06:04  <Flygon> So not only does the character advance to level 99 from 99
07:06:17  <Flygon> But... well... it's just incredibly stupid
07:06:28  <Alberth> lol
07:06:53  <Alberth> sounds like your average OO design :)
07:06:55  <Flygon> But, yeah. It really tripped up my tutor, hahhaa
07:06:59  <Flygon> OO?
07:07:07  <Alberth> object oriented
07:07:30  <Alberth> giving everything its own data, and doing its own thing
07:07:39  <Flygon> Haha, gotcha
07:07:46  <Flygon> Yeah, this is in 1991-1992, mind
07:07:57  <Flygon> The sequel came out around 1993-1994... they cleaned up a lot of shit
07:08:05  <Alberth> :)
07:08:13  <Flygon> In part because they had to cram the hell out of the cart's capacity. Lots of things needed optimizing
07:08:24  <Flygon> And yet, continuing in part with the series's idiosyncratic design processes
07:08:34  <Flygon> They still used large PCM samples for the drums instead of FM instruments <_>
07:08:48  <Flygon> (drums being one of the easier instruments to make sound good in FM)
07:10:08  <Alberth> people don't optimize the program, they optimize time and money for the project
07:10:17  <Flygon> Yeah
07:10:21  <Flygon> That was the money aspect
07:10:49  <Flygon> It was cheaper to tighten up the program (eg. compression, other misc. things) than to go up from a 2mbyte cartridge to a 3mbyte cartridge
07:11:18  <Flygon> Noting that, on the Mega Drive/Genesis, cartridges needed a mapper to allow SRAM use if they were larger than 2 megabytes
07:11:24  <Flygon> Which kinda adds a fair bit of $$$ to the cost
07:11:34  <Alberth> replacing samples would mean new recording costs, etc
07:12:15  <Flygon> Actually...
07:12:21  <Flygon> Alberth, it's FM synth
07:12:24  <Flygon> There's no recording anything :3
07:12:30  <Alberth> although it may have been better to create space that way, so you don't have to mess with a lot of smaller optimizations
07:12:42  <Flygon> You simply take a preexisting FM patch, and adjust it a bit for your needs
07:12:44  <Flygon> No samples needed!
07:13:16  <Alberth> k, but you need to have that knowledge available at the table where the decisions are made :)
07:13:26  <Flygon> Hmm
07:13:28  <Flygon> I should note
07:13:46  <Flygon> Most devs, both Asian and American, seemed to insist on sampled Percussion for whatever reason... I don't know why
07:13:55  <Flygon> Most European devs used FM percussion for the space savings
07:15:03  <Flygon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KLdl1cikgs None of the instruments shown in this video are sampled. They're all dynamically generated by the soundchip :D
07:15:16  <Flygon> The Mega Drive/Genesis is basically the last 'chiptune' console :D
07:15:29  <Alberth> I once hacked in micropolis (original simcity), and found they had "yes votes" and a "no votes" byte for voting, which of course always sums up to 100, so I took one byte out. Then the other dev commented, hmm, yeah, we tried to optimize on space, but missed that one :p
07:16:01  <Flygon> Haha, oops :D
07:16:12  <Flygon> Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened to the first Shining Force
07:16:24  <Flygon> They just hacked the function in a rush and never remembered to fix it
07:18:03  <Alberth> quite likely
07:18:27  <Flygon> That reminds me
07:18:37  <Flygon> I really should get a goahead on that Shining Force hack somepoint
07:18:49  <Flygon> I got the idea in my head, for the lulz
07:18:56  <Flygon> Just to confuse the fuck out of the community
07:19:04  <Flygon> Only real hard bit would be art assets for overworld sprites
07:19:30  <Flygon> And the music
07:19:34  <Flygon> Music hacking is a pain in the ass
07:19:49  <Flygon> And replacing the sound driver to make things more flexible is just too much of a hassle
07:20:13  <Flygon> And there's no split disassembly. I hate doing everything in hex. It makes things so much harder to fix when they break >_>
07:21:34  <Flygon> The entire "The Adventures of Batman and Robin" game, by the way...
07:21:39  <Flygon> The Mega Drive version
07:21:49  <Flygon> IS pretty much utterly insanely programmed...
07:22:11  <Flygon> You wouldn't think what's basically a PC from 1987-1988 would be able to do half the shit it does x.x
07:22:46  <Alberth> oh, I believe that
07:23:11  <Alberth> it's amazing what you can do if you take great care in programming it
07:23:55  <Alberth> it's just that most code is very sloppy, as it saves money in making it
07:24:36  <Alberth> especially older code which gets used and reused and reused, with extra layers of crap around it to make it all work
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07:25:29  <Flygon> Yup
07:25:40  <Alberth> the only reason why that tactic works is because computers are getter faster all the time
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07:26:34  <Flygon> Hmm...
07:27:12  <Flygon> Sorry, thought to my head about how things sorta stalled by the time the PS360 happened
07:28:58  <Alberth> ha, I always like people posting height maps, totally black images :p
07:49:13  <Supercheese> Pretty sure that one kamnet posted isn't entirely black
07:49:33  <Supercheese> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1148337#p1148337
07:50:32  <kamnet> Nope, RGB colors 010101 through 202020
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08:18:55  <Flygon> Either I've got a very good monitor
08:19:03  <Flygon> Or I can see each individual step between levels
08:19:31  <Flygon> In fact
08:19:35  <Flygon> The levels are so close together
08:19:40  <Flygon> That while I can tell individual steps apart
08:20:19  <Flygon> I can also tell my monitor is probably an 18-bit panel (6-bits per channel) and using either dithering or rapid flashing between colours to try and simulate the 192 missing colours per channel
08:20:23  <Flygon> Because some of the steps look off
08:20:43  <supermop> just cracked open an awesome TO OL / Boatrocker collaboration
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08:39:59  <supermop> i wonder if i start thanking companies for free stuff on instagram if they will actually start sending me free stuff
08:40:50  <andythenorth> o/
08:40:59  <supermop> yo andy
08:41:12  <TrueBrain> owh noes, an andy!
08:41:43  <supermop> i want to try at least 50 more kiwi and oz beers before i leave - it would help if i could trick craft breweries into giving me free samples
08:41:48  <andythenorth> what am I doing here?
08:41:58  * andythenorth is confused
08:42:01  <TrueBrain> cats
08:42:03  <supermop> not drinking free beer
08:42:07  <andythenorth> haven’t seen any
08:42:19  <TrueBrain> now whos mistake is that!
08:45:25  <Pikka> where's the beer?
08:45:30  <andythenorth> pikka too
08:45:32  <andythenorth> hmm
08:45:36  <TrueBrain> someone has a highlight on the word beer ;)
08:45:38  <andythenorth> what time is it?
08:45:47  <Pikka> 6.45 pm
08:45:56  <andythenorth> feels earlier somehow
08:45:57  <TrueBrain> what is this pm you talk about?
08:46:05  <Pikka> 18.46
08:46:08  <TrueBrain> :D
08:46:16  <TrueBrain> its 10:46 here
08:46:41  <andythenorth> all of you have the wrong time
08:46:46  <andythenorth> what are you talking about?
08:46:50  <andythenorth> it’s 09.46
08:46:54  <Rubidium> andythenorth: 0846z?
08:47:40  <TrueBrain> woh is zulu, and why is he not on a spaceship?
08:48:46  * andythenorth wonders if frosch stayed up all night
08:48:53  <andythenorth> raising industry limit to 255
08:48:58  <Flygon> Wait
08:49:00  <Flygon> Leave?
08:49:01  <Flygon> D:
08:49:02  <Flygon> Noooo
08:49:03  <Flygon> supermop
08:49:05  <Flygon> You can't leave
08:49:08  <Flygon> I like you too much!
08:49:11  <Pikka> when did this happen?
08:49:17  <TrueBrain> did he put a ring on it?
08:49:43  <Flygon> Last I checked, supermop was straight
08:49:56  <TrueBrain> do you check often?
08:50:03  <TrueBrain> *this conversation is going the wrong way* :D
08:50:12  <supermop> beer is in my glass
08:50:19  <Flygon> I don't go to #openttd to find gay men
08:50:28  <Flygon> I have other IRC channels for that
08:51:16  <supermop> https://craftybrew.com.au/beer/boatrocker-orange-sherbet
08:51:21  <supermop> one of these
08:51:49  <supermop> unfortunately one cannot go to IRC for free beer
08:54:20  <supermop> Pikka: what beer they have up there beyond 4x?
08:54:31  <supermop> anything i should try before a split
08:54:42  <Pikka> nothing local worth speaking of
08:55:07  <supermop> i've never had xxxx actually should try it at some point
08:55:24  <supermop> 2 months left
08:55:42  <andythenorth> Pikka: so how will you use 255 industries in Pineapplez? o_O
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08:55:56  <Pikka> hmm
08:56:01  <Supercheese> a plantation for every different type of fruit
08:56:18  <supermop> each tai house a unique industry
08:56:26  <Pikka> I won't. :)
08:56:51  <Pikka> making "special" houses industries could be an option, but I'd want them to be buldozable
08:58:33  <andythenorth> MAGIC BULLDOZER
08:58:34  <andythenorth> oops
08:58:35  <andythenorth> CAPS
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09:03:10  <Pikka> any busthoughts, andythenorth?
09:04:21  <andythenorth> well
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09:04:50  <andythenorth> I like the render
09:05:13  <andythenorth> also
09:05:30  <andythenorth> I tried to keep the bus/coach distinction out of Road Hog
09:05:49  <andythenorth> but I think there’s something in it
09:06:40  <andythenorth> Pikka: what thoughts do you require? o_O
09:06:40  <supermop> huh, rh has coaches i though?
09:06:45  <supermop> thought
09:06:49  <Pikka> those will do :)
09:07:30  <andythenorth> also 1920-2020, 4 buses, 4 coaches
09:07:34  <andythenorth> or 5
09:07:35  <andythenorth> is enough
09:08:13  <Pikka> probably
09:08:30  <Pikka> I have 5 of each
09:08:31  <Pikka> and 5 trams
09:08:40  <supermop> sounds god
09:08:43  <supermop> good
09:08:46  <supermop> whatever
09:09:03  <andythenorth> also, hobbled buses / trams are pointless
09:09:10  <andythenorth> too slow / too small = tedious
09:09:14  <andythenorth> it’s not a history lesson
09:09:41  <Pikka> hobbled?
09:10:00  <andythenorth> < 25 pax, < 25 mph
09:10:05  <andythenorth> boring
09:10:17  <Pikka> hmm
09:10:19  <supermop> no rickshaws
09:10:29  <Pikka> my first tram is 1870, 25mph, 30 cap
09:10:46  <Pikka> first bus 1911, 30, 25
09:11:01  <Pikka> first coach 1905, 40, 20 :)
09:11:11  <andythenorth> sounds about right
09:12:06  <Flygon> Dumb question
09:12:11  <andythenorth> also bbl
09:12:21  <Flygon> IS it possible to somehow increase the 65k road vehicle cap for games?
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09:22:01  <TrueBrain> sure
09:22:10  <TrueBrain> but would you want to, is the question :D
09:24:33  <Flygon> Yes
09:24:40  <Flygon> I mean
09:24:48  <Flygon> I wanna run more than 5k vehicles per company
09:24:52  <Flygon> Because... y'know
09:24:55  <Flygon> I like to use Trams
09:24:59  <Flygon> And Long Distance coaches
09:26:38  <kamnet> 5000 vehicles * 15 companies = 75000 vehicles.
09:27:20  <kamnet> have you ever really hit the 5k limit?
09:27:35  <Flygon> Wait, I thought the cap was 65536 per game?
09:27:37  <Flygon> And, yes
09:27:41  <Flygon> A few times
09:27:52  <Flygon> And the fact I tend to hit 1,500 rvs before 1945 is a concern
09:28:06  <Flygon> Given I tend to take advantage of road coaches by the 1950s :P
09:28:23  <Flygon> eGVTRS (I know I spelt that wrong <_>) and HEQS
09:28:35  <kamnet> I think you're already taking advantage of them, your reproduction rate is far too high. Are you serving them beer, too?
09:29:04  <Flygon> Yes
09:29:27  <kamnet> You, sir, are a cad. And a lush.
09:29:43  <kamnet> A monster, even.
09:29:52  <Flygon> I'm a Pocket Monster
09:30:12  <kamnet> Luring in and then abusing poor, innocent sprites.
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09:30:17  <kamnet> You should feel ashamed of yourself.
09:30:22  <Flygon> I don't abuse sprites
09:30:26  <Flygon> I abuse Zigzagoons!
09:30:38  <kamnet> You can't convince me that they're doing this willingly
09:30:51  <Flygon> Give them the right sort of berries, and they do
09:30:52  <Flygon> :B
09:31:11  <kamnet> Absolutely repulsive pig!
09:31:42  <kamnet> Mammas, don't let your babies grow up to be box trucks.
09:32:54  <Flygon> Heeeey
09:32:55  <Flygon> Now now
09:33:09  <Flygon> Zigzagoon floof only ends up boxed shaped when raised in a box and given floof enhancer!
09:34:21  <kamnet> I stock pokemon cards and toys for a living
09:34:34  <kamnet> I don't have a clue what any of it is
09:43:57  <frosch123> the good thing about having so many open bugs is: you can close every new bug as duplicate of an existing one :)
09:44:18  <kamnet> Huh. just found a Quilladin card on my desk.
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09:47:58  <kamnet> frosch123: Weird, when I searched for "townname" earlier, that one didn't come up
09:48:54  <kamnet> Is OpenTTD 1.5.0 not using a trunk title game?
09:49:20  <frosch123> it only works for pre 0.5 savegames
09:49:28  <frosch123> so the nightly savegame is about the only one with which it works
09:49:46  <frosch123> it's broken in every stable release since 1.0 (since they got custom savegames)
09:49:53  <frosch123> but worked in every nightly ever :)
09:49:55  <kamnet> Ah
09:50:07  <kamnet> That seems like a particularly nasty bug then.
09:50:32  <kamnet> I'm surprised more people haven't complained
09:50:45  <frosch123> yep, so nasty that it was reported by two people in 5 years :p
09:51:07  <frosch123> well, most likely just ignore newgrf and townname newgrf
09:51:13  <frosch123> +people
09:51:26  <frosch123> it's one of the most hidden settings
09:51:39  <frosch123> anyway, i closed 2/2 bugs today due to duplicate :p
09:52:09  <Alberth> :)
09:53:32  <kamnet> I guess most people only play one game in a session
09:58:04  <kamnet> In other news, I made a dev do some work today. Go me!
10:01:13  <Johnnei> Only 709 left :p
10:04:18  <Alberth> you shouldn't count the feature requests :)
10:05:08  <Johnnei> If I only search for type=bug there are only 100 :D
10:10:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27265 /trunk (6 files in 2 dirs) (2015-05-03 12:10:04 +0200 )
10:10:11  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Truncated comment in openttd.grf
10:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> -Fix: Truncated commi
10:22:00  <frosch123> don't scare me :)
10:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
10:28:44  <frosch123> hmm, actually, why is my "bin" folder still modified?
10:28:48  <frosch123> i just committed it
10:30:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27266 /trunk/bin/baseset (4 files) (2015-05-03 12:30:02 +0200 )
10:30:10  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r27265): Eddi jinxed it.
10:30:27  <Johnnei> lol :D
10:33:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27267 trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp (2015-05-03 12:33:26 +0200 )
10:33:33  <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Translate industry variable A6.
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11:10:50  <frosch123> hmm, it doesn't even need a savegame bump
11:11:38  <frosch123> yay, for assert_compile :)
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11:38:09  <Wolf01> hi o/
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11:41:18  <Alberth> moin
11:41:30  <Pikka> bonsoir
11:47:00  <frosch123> Johnnei: if i do not care about servicing intervals, why should i have to reset all vehicles to default manually when buying another company, which also did not care about servicing?
11:48:59  <Johnnei> frosch123: With that mindset it might even be better to also override all newly owned vehicles to the company defaults, even if the had custom settings.
11:51:16  <frosch123> hmm, also true
11:51:31  <frosch123> no idea them, i never played taking over ais
11:51:51  <Johnnei> I never even played with shares enabled
11:52:12  <frosch123> how did you get to the base_consist thingie though?
11:52:26  <frosch123> it's used for cloning, autoreplace and train consist changes
11:52:51  <frosch123> and the default should be "bit not set"
11:53:16  <frosch123> ah, wait, nvm
11:53:41  <Johnnei> Initially I thought it was just a visual glitch, so I added the DoCommand thingy in economy which made it seem fine, but it still broke. So I started stepping through the autoreplace process to find that base_consist failed to recreate vehicle_flags correctly
11:54:12  <frosch123> it's fine, i got it now :)
11:54:13  <Johnnei> Even with this change the vehicle_flags of old and new don't match but as they are copied manually I didn't add the other missing flags
11:55:57  <frosch123> he, vehicle_flags is a mess of static/dynamic flags :)
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11:57:32  <Johnnei> oh well, it seems to do it's intended job :p
11:58:05  <frosch123> ok, if i take your interpretation "servicing intervals should remain the same, when taking over a company"
11:58:25  <frosch123> then economy.cpp should not check for different servint_ispercent
11:58:51  <Johnnei> I actually didn't check if that change was still needed after fixing the base_consist
11:59:12  <frosch123> currently it does not set the is-custom flag, if both used the same unit (percent/days), but different amounts
11:59:38  <Johnnei> Good point as well
12:00:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you have a good reasoning, whether vehicles should adapt to the new companies' default servicing interval, or keep their old one, when taking over companies? :p
12:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe a group action "set service interval to default"?
12:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and put all new vehicles from a company into a group (with subgroups if the company had groups)
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12:01:30  <frosch123> i knew you wouldn't have a simple solution :p
12:02:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hey... you drag me out of completely unrelated context, and i have to make something up on the spot... :p
12:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: anyway, that basically amounts to: "keep the value"
12:03:30  <Johnnei> The change in economy.cpp is still required to resolve the visual error. So the forementioned error in the if-statement should be fixed in all cases :p
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12:05:26  <frosch123> and what if both companies did not use any custom intervals, and both had the same defaults?
12:05:34  <frosch123> should the vehicles still be set to custom
12:05:45  <frosch123> just that they may never be modified when changing the default? :p
12:06:49  <frosch123> andythenorth: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/industrytypelimit.diff <- does that work?
12:07:02  * andythenorth compiles
12:07:44  * andythenorth patches nmlc
12:09:45  <Johnnei> frosch123: I guess your solution in the comment seems the most player friendly, but if the player ignores service intervals then they'll still be suprised by the custom ones.
12:10:47  <andythenorth> when you acquire a company, the company acquires your service intervals
12:11:12  <andythenorth> proper domain for the source of the value is *your* company
12:11:27  <andythenorth> otherwise, what, we keep old company colour for vehicles too?
12:12:03  <frosch123> yay, now i can just let eddi and andy battle it out :)
12:12:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a boring battle
12:13:07  <andythenorth> what’s eddi’s proposal?
12:13:44  <andythenorth> also nml builtin_industry_type() has a fixed check for number of industries
12:13:53  <andythenorth> dunno if that one should change or not
12:15:44  <frosch123> hmm, what weird function is that?
12:16:10  <frosch123> what uses (industry_id | new_id << 7) ?
12:16:51  <frosch123> ok, so i missed some restrictions :)
12:16:57  <frosch123> limit is 128 then
12:17:17  <andythenorth> definitely 128?
12:17:28  * andythenorth changing nml now
12:18:00  <frosch123> well, my patch is incomplete then
12:22:28  <Johnnei> andythenorth: Eddi's proposal basically came down to: keep the old values and an option to convert a group to default interval settings.
12:23:14  <andythenorth> I have an alternative proposal
12:23:22  <andythenorth> remove option to purchase companies
12:23:28  <andythenorth> silly gameplay
12:24:25  <Johnnei> haha :D I guess the players who actually use it will disagree :p
12:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> if we listend to every fit andy throws about "remove feature X, it's silly"...
12:25:20  <Johnnei> New in openttd 1.6: We removed everything. The code base is now 0 lines of code.
12:25:47  <frosch123> should be worth 2.0 status :p
12:27:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause is likely right about the correct solution
12:27:08  <andythenorth> but mine is easier to implement :P
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12:30:31  <andythenorth> A fatal newgrf error has occurred: attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 59525)
12:31:33  <Flygon> At least it's not a pixie error
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12:41:16  <Johnnei> Alright. Will try to make a patch for Eddi's solution but might take some time, I'm not that familiar with the codebase yet :p
12:41:45  <frosch123> it's not necessarily a good idea to follow eddi's ideas .)
12:42:00  <frosch123> there is no point in a hyper-complex solution which, noone uses anyway
12:42:55  <Johnnei> That's true as well, but then we should decide on which settings should be enforced
12:45:25  <frosch123> i would still go for "default" means "i don't care"
12:45:58  <frosch123> keep custom of old company, enforce defaults of new company for vehicles with no custom interval
12:47:35  <Johnnei> Okey, will do that then. Seems the most user friendly.
12:48:37  * andythenorth wonders why that ID is invalid, and where it comes from
12:49:29  <frosch123> it usually means that you skipped the item definition
12:52:44  * andythenorth tests with an industry that doesn’t redefine default coal mine
12:53:41  <andythenorth> same message, sprite 3131
12:53:45  <andythenorth> interesting
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13:27:21  <andythenorth> biab, flakey wifi
13:30:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: that sprite error was bogus, Eandythenorth
13:31:03  <andythenorth> had two copies of ottd running, one unpatched
13:31:39  <andythenorth> only noticed because of crossing bells on title screen :P
13:32:04  <frosch123> :)
13:35:21  <Johnnei> -sigh-
13:36:21  <Johnnei> Changed the patch to copy the values, however the cmdChangeServiceInt copies the company settings. grrrr
13:42:02  <peter1138> https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11205019_10205511155770965_5236448821282013843_n.jpg?oh=5830f101649c2a64b2115c60e0e23b0b&oe=55E381A8
13:42:20  <peter1138> Excuse the digital zoom potatory :(
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13:52:40  <Rubidium> peter1138: what's so special about that train?
14:04:18  <Rubidium> and speaking about trains in the UK; why is buying a ticket Cambridge - Newbury about GBP 10 more expensive than Cambridge - London Kings Cross + London Kings Cross - Newbury (both routes go via London Kings Cross)
14:04:57  <peter1138> Dunno, it's a little unusual, in UK-land at least.
14:07:27  <Alberth> nobody wants to go to London Kings Cross
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14:15:48  <Wolf01> Rubidium, 2 slow trains vs 1 rapid train?
14:16:02  <Rubidium> Wolf01: nope, the exact same trains
14:19:13  <Wolf01> In Italy looks like you pay more the more time they take...
14:25:05  <Rubidium> right... Amsterdam - Birmingham with a layover in ... Dubai
14:26:01  <michi_cc> Rubidium: Splitting train tickets is allowed, so the more expensive ticket is purely for anybody who doesn't realize this.
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15:33:09  * andythenorth wants an account system for irc
15:33:18  <andythenorth> accounting *
15:33:27  <andythenorth> then I can work out the profit (loss) on each post
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15:44:48  <DanMacK> Hey all
15:45:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: so the 128 industry patch works for me
15:53:35  <Alberth> andythenorth:   def get_profit(post): return -1
15:55:39  <Alberth> hmm, irc eh? in that case, I may have missed a few cases
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16:05:38  <andythenorth> Alberth: I think it’s a dice roll
16:05:45  <andythenorth> random(9)
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16:08:32  <Alberth> is more interesting to try, at least :)
16:15:56  <Johnnei> return time() % 9 :D
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19:07:45  <andythenorth> quiet cat
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19:09:35  <V453000> andythenorth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r0KsLYr3wA
19:09:54  <andythenorth> eh
19:09:55  <andythenorth> classic
19:10:43  <V453000> :) more about the lego than some trivial rotation :P
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19:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [sprite] Ignoring 104 unused extra bytes from the sprite from /nars2w at position 3312641 <-- this positioning data seems broken/useless
19:20:44  <frosch123> that grfcodec bug was fixed 2 years ago, in case you are wondering
19:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i was probably not :p
19:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause> is this known? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pzlztsqts
19:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that may be my code
19:23:25  <frosch123> there are no warnings with gcc 4.7
19:23:36  <frosch123> there are various warning with various other compilers
19:24:15  <Eddi|zuHause> +               case 0x4E: // total weight of the consist <-- did i actually write this?
19:25:48  <frosch123> yes, you even submitted it to fs
19:25:52  <frosch123> and i rejected it :p
19:26:11  <Alberth> gn
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19:28:44  <Johnnei> rm -rf ./bugs-fixes
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19:57:02  <andythenorth> http://www.spintires.com
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20:10:22  <FLHerne> cargo_(dis)allow_refit always overrides the (non_)refittable_cargo_classes, right?
20:11:43  <V453000> vehicles: can I allow/disallow company colours just by a parameter switching the CC flag, and keeping the sprites, or do I have to define new sprites?
20:11:47  <frosch123> FLHerne: yes
20:11:55  <FLHerne> Thanks
20:12:26  <FLHerne> And it seems disallow/nonrefittable always overrides the positive version, if I somehow manage to set both?
20:12:37  <V453000> I want to have 32bpp vehicles not use CC but provide the option without doubling grfsize
20:12:51  <FLHerne> OTOH, if that ever actually matters to me my code is broken already
20:13:07  <frosch123> V453000: no, you cannot disable the "mask"
20:13:34  <V453000> :0
20:13:45  <V453000> define new vehicle which does not have it?
20:13:45  <frosch123> either there is one, or there is none
20:13:57  <V453000> sure, in sprites
20:14:04  <V453000> but vehicle has flag for CC
20:14:17  <frosch123> you do not need separate vehicles
20:14:23  <frosch123> just provide sprites without "mask"
20:14:30  <frosch123> no idea what you want to do with the CC flag
20:14:35  <frosch123> it only affects the "mask"
20:14:43  <frosch123> it does nothing if you have no "mask"
20:14:49  <V453000> exactly
20:14:53  <V453000> I will have mask for all
20:15:01  <V453000> and disable the mask by the flag
20:15:23  <frosch123> you can force the company colour to be always blue, but you cannot disable the mask
20:15:35  <V453000> jesus christ
20:15:44  <V453000> :(
20:16:03  <V453000> so no way to make CC disable-able without doubling filesize?
20:16:12  <frosch123> so, if there is one company colour that looks like "without mask", you can force that one
20:16:18  <frosch123> but the mask will be applies in any case
20:16:31  <frosch123> no mask, means duplicate sprites
20:16:31  <V453000> hm.
20:16:39  <V453000> yes
20:16:53  <V453000> duplicate sprites with and without mask
20:17:10  <frosch123> in theory you could make two grfs :p removing the mask does not change the md5sum :p
20:17:17  <V453000> I wont do that, will ignore CC insteead
20:17:29  <frosch123> but ottd won't load unused sprites anyway, so it does not affect the spritecache
20:17:41  <V453000> filesize though
20:17:46  <frosch123> only size on disk, so why do you care?
20:17:49  <V453000> and stupid mess in code etc
20:18:20  <V453000> I for some reason assumed that it could work to disable it
20:18:25  <V453000> but hm :)
20:18:42  <V453000> I guess that could not be changed eh
20:20:08  <frosch123> quite unlikely :p
20:20:18  <frosch123> pineapple has n sprites for n colours
20:20:29  <frosch123> adding n+1 for traditional company colour does not matter in that case
20:20:46  <V453000> good point
20:20:55  <V453000> since I want to do colours as well
20:20:59  <V453000> hmm
20:21:15  <frosch123> well, in that case you do not save any code either :p
20:21:30  <frosch123> it's simple to add another case depending on a global parameter
20:21:36  <frosch123> if you have already a switch for colours anyway
20:22:00  <V453000> yeah
20:22:18  <V453000> well, okay :) that sounds like the way to go
20:23:11  <V453000> it doesnt even need to be an extra render, can just apply the mask to existing
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20:26:56  <V453000> fine then :D thanks for making it clear frosch123  :)
20:28:47  <frosch123> you can make a switch like "my_grf_parameter == 1 ? 16 : company_colour1" which then has cases 0 to 15 for 32bpp sprites, and 16 for cc mask
20:28:58  <frosch123> so, you need no extra switch at all
20:29:35  <V453000> I make just about 8 colours, all 15 is stupidly many :)
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21:25:34  <Wolf01> 'night
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