Log for #openttd on 29th May 2015:
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03:47:28  <supermop> i wish you could timetable depot stays
03:47:57  <supermop> i lose most of my game years to releasing timetabled vehicles
03:48:47  <supermop> if i could have a depot as first or second order could start them all at once and they'd figure it out on their own
03:49:37  <supermop> in stead of hovering over the depot watching the first station and starting each one in correct order to line up with it's slot in existing traffic
03:49:44  <supermop> one per month or whatever
03:53:51  <supermop> would be really helpful for trams, which can't lay-up in a terminus
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09:34:24  <argoneus_> good morning train friends
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09:51:41  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
09:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> what if i'm a train hater and only here for my masochistic tendencies?
09:59:24  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and: "check your privileges" :p
10:01:25  <supermop> i think it is usually singular in that case eddi
10:02:18  <supermop> as a member of a privileged class is assumed to have some amount of 'privilege' in the way he might have some amount of beer
10:03:04  <supermop> we would use privileges, as with beers, when we want to get into the specifics of which types he has
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10:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not how i would use the word in german...
10:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i don't see how you could have more of one type of privilege, instead of more different types of privileges
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10:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause> do you measure the privilege of having access to clean drinking water by how far you have to walk to get it?
10:15:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not make any sense at all.
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10:33:08  <supermop> i think you could
10:34:01  <supermop> i think the privilege of having an employment oprotunity nearby vs  serveral nearby are essentially the same privilege but differentiated by degree
10:34:38  <argoneus_> Eddi|zuHause: are you masochistic?
10:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus_: how is that relevant?
10:35:26  <argoneus_> Eddi|zuHause: you talked about it 30 mins ago
10:35:32  <argoneus_> seems pretty relevant to me
10:35:53  <argoneus_> are you.... avoiding the question?
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10:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus_: do you need a lesson on what the word "if" means?
10:36:08  <argoneus> yes
10:36:10  <argoneus> give me a lesson
10:36:14  <argoneus> master~
10:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid i'm not quite qualified to give such lessons
10:37:16  <supermop> opping time
10:37:20  <supermop> mopping
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10:58:58  <solatis> ok, i give up. setting up self-regulating networks is too messed up to get right.
11:01:52  <solatis> or at least, it's too difficult to make it efficient combined with ECS. too many barely loaded trains running around.
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11:14:13  <supermop> i find its easiest to just timetable things
11:14:22  <supermop> maybe not the best for ecs
11:15:20  <supermop> but figure out a monthly tonnage that is slightly more capacity than you need, and try to have a train of that size stopping by once per 30 days
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11:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> might work better if you choose a multiple of 256 ticks
11:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause> as that is the production cycle of the industry
11:29:26  <solatis> i never really tried the timetable thing
11:29:57  <supermop> for a mine or other primary industry i will typically have a two track terminus, and schedule the train to waait there for the number of days between trains in the schedule (usually 30) +1 or 2
11:30:28  <supermop> so the loading train leave once the following train has stopped in the station and cleared the junction
11:30:48  <solatis> that is pretty good actually
11:31:21  <solatis> so you always have one train loading, but also have a continuous flow of primary cargo coming in
11:31:30  <supermop> sure
11:31:56  <supermop> 'full load' is too unpredictable
11:32:27  <supermop> better to have a regular flow of cargo even if your trains are sometimes 80-90% full
11:32:39  <solatis> yeah
11:33:40  <supermop> you can also then generally know when a train will be on a certain stretch of track, so you can align other trains to share the line without them delaying each other
11:34:23  <supermop> the problem is timetabling multiple lines together is very very tedious
11:34:41  <Geth> how does the timetables even work?
11:35:18  <supermop> but there are advantages for infrastructure
11:36:15  *** Geth is now known as Hiddenfunstuff
11:36:21  <supermop> in my current game i have several city stations that see 25+ trains from 5+ different lines with only two tracks, and flat junctions
11:36:42  <supermop> with one train in each direction every 10 days
11:37:10  <supermop> that's about the limit unless your train grf has very fast loading speeds
11:40:55  <supermop> you can also use the timetable to limit speeds
11:41:21  <Hiddenfunstuff> so in what case timetables are useful?
11:41:23  <supermop> so if you have some freight trains that go 120kmh and passenger trains that go 160
11:42:12  <supermop> you can have the passenger trains run at 120 on the shared bits of track so they run smoothly together
11:42:47  <supermop> Hiddenfunstuff: anywhere where you want reguar performance from a network
11:43:15  <supermop> and don't want lots of unnecessary infrastructure
11:43:16  <Hiddenfunstuff> So that might solve problems in my mainline where empty and loaded trains run together.. empty one is faster and constantly stuck between a slower loaded one
11:43:37  <supermop> sure
11:44:00  <Hiddenfunstuff> Except those will be pain to keep up to date as train speeds go up
11:44:09  <supermop> tru
11:44:11  <supermop> ee
11:44:30  <Hiddenfunstuff> Right now starting off a new game so and making sure to future proof my mainlines..
11:45:35  <supermop> 'future proof' is easiest if you built extra capacity then never build faster trains later
11:45:41  <supermop> but thats boring
11:46:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah
11:46:24  <supermop> in the game i'm playing now, a sugar beet train run on a line with passenger trains,
11:46:56  <supermop> and the various branches on the line are syncronized in multiples of 90 days
11:47:04  <Hiddenfunstuff> oh?
11:47:27  <supermop> this lets me easily have one sugar train ever 90 days, which is great for now,
11:48:01  <supermop> as it carries 300 tons, and serves a firs arable farm producing 98 tons per month
11:48:02  <supermop> but
11:48:03  <argoneus> I never found timetabling useful for trains
11:48:09  <argoneus> full load kinda spreads them out just fine
11:48:16  <argoneus> it's useful for buses and other things that don't full load though
11:48:31  <Hiddenfunstuff> Yeah.. if you have to wait at the station for full load..
11:48:42  <supermop> if i ever boost the production of the farm, i can't easily increase the sugar train capacity
11:48:52  <Hiddenfunstuff> I usually time the trains so that once theres a train load of stuff in the station, i put out a next train on
11:48:56  <supermop> argoneus: i never use full load for freight
11:49:02  <argoneus> no?
11:49:09  <argoneus> I always use it and make sure there's always atleast 1 train loading something
11:49:10  <supermop> unless it's an isolated branch line
11:49:21  <supermop> i do that with timetables
11:49:22  <argoneus> then again I make 7 length trains
11:49:26  <argoneus> or was it 14
11:50:04  <supermop> as soon as i have more than two trains at a mine, i switch to timetables
11:50:23  <Hiddenfunstuff> I use 16 lenght trains
11:50:43  <Hiddenfunstuff> those usually can fit about 1000 tons or 1,000,000 litres of stuff
11:51:00  <argoneus> the problem with timetables is
11:51:04  <argoneus> that they are annoying to set up
11:51:10  <argoneus> and if you add another train to the fray it's even more gay
11:51:14  <argoneus> at least from my experience
11:51:32  <argoneus> because you need to re-time everything, no?
11:51:40  <supermop> now im deciding whether to give an extra slot on the line to a second sugar train, or try to double it's length
11:51:55  <Hiddenfunstuff> there should be somekind separate window where you make the time tables, then like tick all the trains you want to apply the timetable to
11:54:04  <Hiddenfunstuff> also how is the most efficient way of handling transfer from railway to maglev? Thats always the big pain in the ass to remake all the orders etc
11:54:10  <Hiddenfunstuff> in big networks even more
11:55:54  <supermop> same way JR is doing it in real life
11:56:05  <supermop> build a separate new network
11:56:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> ..
11:56:23  <Hiddenfunstuff> So its not even worth to switch over to maglev
11:56:30  <supermop> most line probably don't need to be maglev
11:56:41  <Hiddenfunstuff> but the speeeeed!
11:56:43  <solatis> haha
11:56:55  <solatis> typical "how do i do x? -> you don't want to do that"
11:57:09  <Hiddenfunstuff> Screw that, I'll stick to steam trains in 8115
11:57:17  <solatis> i myself use openttdcoop's unrealistic train set newgrf
11:57:17  <supermop> like the marginal increase in payment to sent coal by high speed probably isn't worth the cost of the tracks
11:57:24  <solatis> it features a 'clean' maglev line
11:57:36  <solatis> as in, one that is actually easy on the eyes
11:57:50  <supermop> passengers are good for maglev though
11:57:53  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah
11:58:07  <Hiddenfunstuff> your passengers tend to get pissed if they sit in the train for couple years
11:58:15  <supermop> if your coal maglevs can share trackage with other trains then fine do it
11:58:31  <solatis> i myself like to build huge networks and always cheat the money.. for me it's not about generating money, it's about solving the scalability problems
11:58:34  <supermop> but if its a line just for coal why bother
11:58:39  <solatis> so maglev is a requirement :)
11:58:49  <Hiddenfunstuff> solatis thats what i been starting to do these days..
11:58:55  <supermop> for scale build canals
11:58:58  <Hiddenfunstuff> Just try to build more and more complex tracks
11:59:00  <solatis> Hiddenfunstuff: join us @ openttdcoop :)
11:59:05  <Hiddenfunstuff> I am sitting there already
11:59:09  <supermop> canals carry infinite cargo
11:59:24  <solatis> that's cheating
11:59:31  <Hiddenfunstuff> never used canals,
11:59:35  <solatis> as in, it isn't really scaling
11:59:47  <solatis> it's just replacing trains with something that has no scalability limits
11:59:59  <solatis> instead of architecting your lines to scale
12:00:04  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah
12:00:25  <solatis> to each his own, i guess, but the entire reason i play openttd is to solve those scalability problems
12:00:39  <Hiddenfunstuff> the coop guys are just insane..
12:00:48  <solatis> :)
12:00:53  <solatis> well it's different
12:01:05  <solatis> when i start a new game, i don't let any industries be generated
12:01:13  <solatis> i make huge stations, plan the lines out
12:01:19  <solatis> and only after that do i fund the industries
12:01:27  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah because the random industries kinda spawn in so wierd places
12:01:52  <solatis> yeah, and when you're using ECS or FIRS you want to have the right industries in strategic locations
12:02:07  <solatis> so you can make your 32-track stations in the right places :)
12:02:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> Indeed
12:02:30  <Hiddenfunstuff> and you can run the trains from north to south with the industry chain
12:02:49  <solatis> i don't do that myself, but yeah, you could
12:03:06  <Hiddenfunstuff> Well i dont even bother with short lines anymore
12:03:19  <Hiddenfunstuff> they are all half of the map distance atleast
12:03:37  <solatis> short lines aren't fun
12:03:41  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah
12:08:36  <supermop> i don't know, i find timetabling a network so that trains are rarely if ever delayed is more satisfying
12:08:47  <supermop> and requires more planning
12:08:51  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah..
12:09:21  <supermop> and playing around with ideas of network topology
12:10:03  <supermop> like, how to avoid needing lots of terminal platforms in a city where you have local trains, plus long distance high speed services
12:10:31  <supermop> each game i play around with a different idea to solve that
12:10:40  <Hiddenfunstuff> well that gives some change
12:11:27  <supermop> in this game, the long distance high speed then continues past the city as a local train for 1-2 more stops, so i can lay up at a less busy suburban station
12:11:57  <supermop> and saves me a separate local train for that branch
12:12:44  <supermop> plus passengers in the small town don't need to transfer at the main station to continue further afield
12:13:10  <Hiddenfunstuff> Lol we dont give much a damn about the cities.. sometimes even plowing an lll,rrr mainline through a city
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12:46:04  <supermop> i have run into an odd bit where i now need to run manufacturing supplies in high speed mail cars at 201kmh because the train share an approach to the city with a intercity line
12:47:35  <solatis> is there an easy way to sell ALL my trains?
12:47:40  <solatis> they're all stopped in depots
12:47:47  <solatis> but those are like 50 different depots
12:49:33  <solatis> guess i'll just have to do it manually depot by depot
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12:52:39  <Hiddenfunstuff> yep
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16:52:47  <Alberth> o/
16:53:07  <andythenorth> o/
16:56:04  <Alberth> ugh, squirrels array are complicated :(
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17:15:54  <Alberth> hmmp, someone made a Test class, which wins from my definition :(
17:21:53  <andythenorth> :P
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17:50:56  <andythenorth> Friday cat
17:54:32  * andythenorth wonders about tile height check
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18:04:11  <Alberth> quak
18:05:28  <frosch123> hoi
18:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> # ein bett im kornfeld
18:11:14  <Alberth> sure you want to sleep there?
18:12:07  <frosch123> somietimes eddi has just a terrible taste
18:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you said "heu". so i had to :p
18:13:54  <frosch123> doesn't matter, you already look terrible by remembering such line
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18:14:57  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you just don't know 90s remakes of 70s songs :p
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18:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i bet you don't know "Sexy Eis" either
18:18:04  <frosch123> i do, but only passive
18:18:10  <frosch123> i wouldn't come up with that myself
18:18:25  <frosch123> it's the active knowledge that makes you look bad :p
18:18:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i probably haven't heard either of those songs in over 10 years
18:18:57  <frosch123> anyway, sexy eis is fanta4, right?
18:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's either Stefan Raab or BÃŒrger Lars Dietrich. probably both.
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18:27:20  <andythenorth> so how do I offset to the N tile, to check the N tile height? (using nearby_tile_height)
18:27:25  <andythenorth>
18:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use the PARENT to check for industry location?
18:28:08  <andythenorth> ho, common vars
18:28:10  <andythenorth> might work
18:28:17  <andythenorth> I was considering -1 * relative_x
18:28:25  <andythenorth> and -1 * relative_y
18:29:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that probably works as well
18:29:41  <andythenorth> there must be an elegant way to find the height of the highest corner
18:29:57  <andythenorth> nearby_tile_height gets lowest corner
18:30:00  <andythenorth> which is no use
18:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> nearby_tile_height+slope==SLOPE_FLAT?0:(slope is steep)?2:1
18:31:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to exclude steep slopes in most cases
18:31:59  * andythenorth wonders whether auto-foundations would work on steep slopes
18:32:01  * andythenorth checks farms
18:32:18  <Eddi|zuHause> afair they do
18:32:20  <frosch123> yes, they do
18:32:48  <andythenorth> they do
18:32:56  <frosch123> kind of ugly ofc :p
18:33:08  <andythenorth> I’ll allow steep slopes initially
18:33:17  <andythenorth> in this check
18:33:25  <andythenorth> there’s already a separate atomic check to forbid steep slopes
18:33:36  <andythenorth> can add that if the foundations look awful
18:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> (slope&IS_STEEP_SLOPE!=0)
18:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> or ==0 and flip 1:2
18:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause> also slope>=IS_STEEP_SLOPE probably works
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18:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 838000/16000000000
18:58:59  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.2375e-05
18:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 838000/16000000000*100
18:59:17  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.0052375
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19:06:09  <andythenorth>
19:06:10  <andythenorth> works
19:06:23  <andythenorth> won’t remember what that does in 3 months though :P
19:06:35  <frosch123> write a comment :p
19:06:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably write -relative_x
19:06:39  <frosch123> or better two
19:06:48  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of -1*blah
19:07:15  <frosch123> also note that it's eddi's fault
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19:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> he already has an uncanny ability of throwing random lines at me and say "you wrote this for me X years ago"
19:08:32  <andythenorth> I think I’d have to blame this one on me
19:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and i of course have no memory of that. ever.
19:09:35  <andythenorth> programmers who are good at thinking algorithmically seem to have poor memories
19:09:35  <frosch123> good point. andy: also add a timestamp and irc log link
19:09:41  <andythenorth> in my limited sample :P
19:10:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i have pretty good memory, but it's very selective
19:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i only remember things that don't matter at all.
19:10:22  <andythenorth> so I know some people who can recall specs
19:10:28  <frosch123> like stupid song texts
19:10:31  <andythenorth> but not what they did 1 hour ago
19:11:00  <Eddi|zuHause> who cares. it was probably watching a youtube video.
19:13:30  <andythenorth> what to call this check
19:13:43  <andythenorth> require_highest_point_of_every_tile_to_be_same ?
19:13:48  <Eddi|zuHause> magic thing about not quite flat area
19:13:49  <andythenorth> seems a bit long-winded :P
19:13:58  <andythenorth> require_mostly_flat :P
19:14:16  <frosch123> call it "eddi_20150529_2030CETS"
19:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> is_flat_with_foundations
19:15:16  <frosch123> hmm, CEST :p
19:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: freudian slip :p
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19:22:53  <Wolf01> hi o/
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19:27:30  <Alberth> o/
19:30:23  <Wolf01> yeah :D
19:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks very mad-max-y
19:31:57  <Wolf01> it is
19:35:39  <Alberth> inspiration!  Wolf01
19:36:02  <Wolf01> lets make a mad max grf
19:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "Fullerenes enriched with Rubidium produced a room-temperature superconductor"
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20:10:59  <andythenorth> eh, this new check seems better
20:11:00  <andythenorth> winner
20:13:23  <Alberth> code improves if you write it several times :)
20:13:42  <Eddi|zuHause> only if you're a good programmer :p
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20:16:04  <andythenorth> nah
20:16:13  <andythenorth> for bad programmers it’s a random walk
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20:25:39  <andythenorth> hmm
20:25:50  <andythenorth> quarry and clay pit disable all tile location checks
20:25:55  <andythenorth> to permit terraforming
20:26:05  <andythenorth> this has unwanted side effects
20:31:29  <Alberth> haha, claypit on foundations :p
20:34:12  <glx> seems legit :)
20:34:48  <andythenorth> actually no :)
20:34:58  <andythenorth> there’s a special tile flag that prevents that
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20:38:26  <andythenorth> shame the tile location check cb can’t return a bitmask for terraforming tile corners
20:38:35  <andythenorth> instead of simply allow / disallow
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20:40:17  <andythenorth> actually, probably too many complex cases :P
20:40:22  <andythenorth> is the tile water?
20:40:30  <andythenorth> and is it water after terraforming?
20:40:32  <andythenorth> etc :P
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20:42:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no tile is ever water after terraforming
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20:45:12  <frosch123> objects add many anomalies wrt. that
20:45:50  <frosch123> they could be on water, be completely auto-slopeable, and auto-removable when building something else on them
20:52:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and after terraforming + n ticks? :P
20:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is not a check you can do
20:53:07  <andythenorth> indeed :)
20:53:22  <andythenorth> oh grue and bleen predicates again :P
20:54:19  <andythenorth> anyway, maybe OpenTTD is trying to tell me that the quarry and clay pit are flawed
20:54:26  <andythenorth> hard to build = bad feature
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21:08:28  <Supercheese> Hullo
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22:47:48  <Wolf01> 'night
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