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Log for #openttd on 14th August 2015:
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00:22:59  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6A6AA.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
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01:48:43  <Ether_Man> Anyone that can explain why a mine would have ~30% cargo transported, despite a train coming through every 15 days or so and empties the station? Do I need multiple stations for a single mine or something?
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01:59:38  <Eddi|zuHause> station rating is highest if there is always a train waiting
02:00:25  <Ether_Man> So the cargo transported, is actually not about amount of cargo transported but about the station rating?
02:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo transported is basically the average station rating during the month. the industry production is multiplied by this value before transporting the cargo to your station
02:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the name is slightly misleading
02:02:14  <Ether_Man> Indeed >_<
02:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not how much you transported, but how much the mine gives you to transport
02:02:48  <Ether_Man> Was it always like that in TT or is that openttd specific? Don't remember it being like that at all from when I was a kid
02:02:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it was always like that
02:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and memories from when you were a kid are notoriously unreliable :p
02:03:48  <Ether_Man> k. Well cheers. Guess it's time to redo that network... again :)
02:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there are ways you can override this mechanics. e.g. FIRS allows you to set the station rating to 100% always
02:06:42  <Ether_Man> Hmm... Firs looks interesting. Never heard of it before but looks like it could be interesting, although not for that reason. It's fine like that, as long as I know what the heck is going on :)
02:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> even after 20 years you can and will find things that work differently than you thought they were
02:23:54  <Ether_Man> Indeed. I used to think 4 trains on a single main line with terminals at the end in each direction was hard to manage. Though I dont remember being able to set one-way and such back then
02:24:33  <Eddi|zuHause> TT original didn't have one-way, that was introduced in TTD
02:24:52  <Ether_Man> Ah. Never played deluxe. Only had the original back then :)
02:25:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but i played TT so much that i worked out my own method how to get my train network to be one-way
02:25:52  <Ether_Man> Heh
02:26:49  <Ether_Man> I just went with, terminal, one or two passing loops and then terminal again. Slow, but worked :)
02:27:16  <glx> the AI way ;)
02:27:42  <Ether_Man> Quite possibly I learned it from the AI :)
02:34:40  <Sylf> go learn from other players (multi player) - I find that the best place to learn
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03:48:51  <Ether_Man> Sylf, meh, I don't like the stress of playing against others in a game like tt. I wanna take my time planning every move and rather build something nice by my self. Generally don't even have AI players active anymore :)
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04:21:11  <Sylf> Playing is optional on any openttd servers
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04:36:50  <Flygon> Literally
04:36:54  <Flygon> All have guest viewing positions
04:37:13  <Flygon> I'm just waiting for the year 2030 where we'll have fully flexible underground subways and viaducts
04:37:28  <Flygon> 65k*65k maps w/Civ II style horizontal rollover
04:37:39  <Flygon> And people doing literal world maps and... something something :B
04:37:57  <Flygon> WE MUST MAKE OTTD START AT 1AD!
04:38:12  <Flygon> AND WE MUST IMPLEMENT INTERNATIONAL WAR AS A FEATURE
04:38:24  <Sylf> Invest in invention of wheel?
04:38:55  <Flygon> Pssh
04:39:00  <Flygon> Nobody researches The Wheel
04:39:07  <Flygon> Everyone gets it from Great Library!
04:39:49  <Flygon> And also we must implement Mad Max-style future as a feature
04:40:00  <Flygon> OPENTTD MUST HAVE TRANSPORT WARS
04:40:25  * Flygon resumes animation he's been procrastinating heavily on
04:40:43  <Flygon> 8 hours to finish colouring 32 frames
04:40:46  <Flygon> I AM NOT INTELLIGENT
04:41:04  <Flygon> Won't even get shading done :(
04:42:13  *** dustinm` [~dustinm`@105.ip-167-114-152.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:42:31  <Flygon> I mean
04:42:33  <Flygon> It's EASY
04:42:38  <Flygon> It's just menial work
04:42:46  <Flygon> EVERYTHING'S already animated...
04:42:48  <Flygon> Except the eyes
04:42:50  <Flygon> I'm screwed
04:50:05  <Supercheese> Well, bon chance
04:50:23  <Supercheese> or is it bonne chance
04:50:33  <Supercheese> I only ever hear it said
04:50:39  <Flygon> What does it mean?
04:50:45  <Flygon> And, yeah
04:50:46  <Supercheese> should be French for Good Luck
04:51:03  <Flygon> I'm utterly fucked. The eyes have an undefined period where I might need to reanimate a few frames...
04:51:15  <Flygon> By 11:30AM Saturday... it's 2:51PM Friday now
04:51:20  <Flygon> Thanks, cheese x.x
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04:52:05  <Flygon> Now to hope I don't hit the secondary issue
04:52:06  <Flygon> RAM.
04:52:14  <Flygon> Long story short: Paint Tool SAI
04:52:21  <Flygon> And 32-bit app RAM limit...
04:55:55  <Flygon> Urgh...
04:55:58  <Flygon> Worst to worst
04:56:01  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC677EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit []
04:56:02  <Flygon> It's pushed back to Saturday
04:56:05  <Flygon> Er, Sunday
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04:56:40  <Supercheese> Isn't there some patch to enable extended memory usage for 32-bit applications?
04:56:53  <Supercheese> I recall hitting the limit  in Civilization IV and patching it to get more RAM available...
04:57:48  <Flygon> Dunno
04:57:53  <Flygon> I think that just extends to 4GB
04:58:04  <Flygon> Not the 12GB available my app needs
04:58:58  <Supercheese> hmm yeah it does
04:59:04  <Supercheese> just 4 gigs
04:59:13  <Flygon> Thank you, regardless :#
04:59:14  <Flygon> :3*
04:59:23  <Flygon> I'll just need to use layers efficiently and pray a lot x3
05:00:40  <Flygon> Shame I gotta sleep by 2AM...
05:00:45  <Flygon> I'd work til 4AM fixing it otherwise :B
05:06:18  <Flygon> Oh nuts... not just the eyes I may needa redo too
05:06:25  <Flygon> The secondary body in this thing too...
05:06:34  <Flygon> This is what you get for pushing things off to last minute xP
05:07:30  <Supercheese> I know whatcha mean, I was the university champion procrastinator :P
05:08:03  <Flygon> :D
05:08:22  <Flygon> My excuse is
05:08:29  <Flygon> Is that I was busy the rest of the week xP
05:08:33  <Supercheese> although the championship games kept getting delayed... and delayed... ;)
05:09:45  <Flygon> Worst to worst...
05:09:54  <Flygon> I publish it as a WIP, using the lack of shading as an excuse
05:10:09  <Flygon> Then figure out how to draw animated shading in Paint Tool SAI because holy CRAP this software is not meant for animation
05:10:51  <Flygon> Annnnd
05:10:57  <Flygon> I am now getting RAM full errors
05:10:58  <Flygon> :|
05:14:17  <Flygon> Whelp
05:14:19  <Flygon> I'm boned.
05:14:48  * Flygon starts trying to split the one .sai file into four .sai files with 8 frames each >_>"
05:16:31  * Supercheese hasn't ever used Paint Tool SAI
05:22:13  <Flygon> And now I'm screwed because I can't cut-paste folders
05:22:15  <Flygon> Hahaha...
05:22:30  <Flygon> I'll sort this out when I'm done picking people up from the railway station xP
05:22:36  <Flygon> Thankfully, most of the folders
05:22:43  <Flygon> Just have one layer inside (the ink layer)
05:24:45  <Ether_Man> Oh. Just came across an interesting concept. http://verplant.org/openttd/images/station_ultra_high_performance.png shows trains being forced to enter a depo, but will trains actually do service when routed like that or will they just route through it as if just a small turnabout?
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05:55:55  <Alberth> they avoid depots if possible
05:56:53  <Alberth> doesn't look very high speed to me
05:57:28  <Alberth> too many very small corners
05:57:38  <Alberth> *tight
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06:07:21  <Ether_Man> Alberth, they avoid if possible yes, but if it routes through them? As in delete the straight track going past them. Will they enter and get serviced or?
06:07:57  <Alberth> I think so yeah
06:08:30  <Alberth> it's much easier just to order them to a depot :)
06:10:27  <Ether_Man> Possibly. But it's an interesting concept :)
06:14:12  <Ether_Man> Hmm... I think I'm kind of abusing the station rating system with my current setup... Gotten a coal mine up to 800 production now in a very short timespan... It's at a constant 100% with the "harsh" setting in FIRS. Put the train station just outside the range of the mine, and then 4 road cargo depots within range of the mine, and 4 for the train station... And then lots and lots of coal trucks... There's always a truck loading and unloading.. (well, usually
06:14:12  <Ether_Man>  more than one). So cargo gets away from the coal mine instantly, always, without having a train sitting and waiting :)
06:19:45  <Alberth> isn't it much easier to set the rating to 100% in firs?
06:21:02  <Ether_Man> It is but that's cheating. I just wanted to try it out if it worked, and it works a bit too good even :)
06:24:21  <Alberth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Servicing#Forced_servicing_.28trains_only.29
06:25:02  <Alberth> oh, no worries, soon the industry produces more than you can handle with RVs :)
06:29:03  <Ether_Man> Mm. It seems to max out at around 800. The transported drops to ~70% at that point and then sits quite stable at that production. Although it gives me new ideas for how to create feeder lines with trains. I've been trying to avoid transfers since I misunderstood the timer, but feeder networks feeding to larger and larger trunks seems to be a much better alternative to get departures as often as possible
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06:48:24  <Alberth> 70% is pretty normal
06:48:57  <Ether_Man> Possibly. 800 coal/month isnt a normal production for ME though :)
06:49:35  <Alberth> oh, firs, doesn't change production unless you give it supplies
06:50:08  <Alberth> unless you play a beta version, where there is more diversity, I tihnk
06:50:46  <Ether_Man> Firs basic. It doesnt use that system where almost everything needs other things :)
06:51:29  <Alberth> basic is lot more manageable :)
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06:52:01  <Alberth> but you don't need to build entire cycles in firs
06:52:11  <Ether_Man> Yea I tried a game of the full... Could not find anything to actually work with other than passengers...
06:52:39  <Alberth> firs is big, it takes ages to find a matching pair
06:52:58  <Ether_Man> The only origin production I could find... Was fishing. But no boats that could transport fishes so that was useless >_<
06:53:15  <Alberth> I played with busybee giving me assignment to do. It gives foces
06:53:35  <Alberth> ha, yep, you need squid (fish2) as well
06:54:58  <Alberth> and a newgrf trainset, I hope you had that, or indeed, very little that you can transport
06:55:24  <Alberth> and if you like RVs, an RV set too, eg Road Hog
06:55:28  <Ether_Man> Nope. Just tried with firs. Readme didnt say I needed anyhting else >_<
06:55:45  <Alberth> I don't believe that
06:57:24  <Alberth> Furthermore you need a vehicle set that supports the FIRS cargos.  <-- line 13 :)
06:58:28  <Ether_Man> The sentence right next to it says that "Any vehicle
06:58:28  <Ether_Man> set with proper Cargo Classes support should do that by default."   I would assume that the default vehicles do that since they say it like that
06:59:16  <Ether_Man> The sentence after that says that it's not all that can be transported, but that virtually nothing is... Well that's quite different from what it sounds like there
07:00:14  <Alberth> stuff ages, also the author knows all this, it's hard to explain to someone who has a different view
07:00:50  <Alberth> but if you can phrase it better, please do
07:01:18  <Ether_Man> The entire section?
07:01:19  <V453000> yo
07:01:29  <Alberth> oy V
07:02:01  <Alberth> If the entire section is best to replace in your view, sure
07:02:40  <Alberth> all yetis awake and working hard?
07:04:35  <Supercheese> do yetis get paid double for overtime?
07:05:06  <Ether_Man> Well, just dropping the sentence I quoted, and change "all" to "a number of" would be a lot clearer. Referencing Cargo Classes is great information to other devs that knows what those are and what implements them, but it's just confusing information from a user perspective, especially when combined with like saying any proper set and referncing default.
07:08:21  <Alberth> yeah, it intends to refer to behavior and not to a set, but I see that can lead to confusion
07:09:42  <Alberth> @logs
07:09:42  <DorpsGek> Alberth: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
07:11:55  <Alberth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7742  made an issue about it
07:15:21  <Ether_Man> Heh... Just found http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/7/74/Psg193_BRIDGES.png what an amazing mess :)
07:17:51  <V453000> (.
07:19:13  <Alberth> and it actually works :)
07:19:38  <Ether_Man> I'm sure it does. The question is. What does it DO? :)
07:20:11  <Alberth> Fail safe system, obviously
07:22:04  <Ether_Man> Obviously, right :)
07:26:14  <Alberth> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_191_-_200#gameid_193  is the game itself so you can watch it in action
07:27:32  <Alberth> it will just increase amazement though :)
07:36:44  <Ether_Man> Cant get ottdc stuff to work :/
07:36:56  <Supercheese> probably need the ottdcoop grf pack
07:37:16  <Supercheese> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF
07:37:43  <Ether_Man> I have. But cant get it to recognise them.
07:38:01  <Supercheese> might not have extracted it to the right place?
07:42:43  <Ether_Man> Well since it recognises most of the same pack, I would assume so.
07:43:24  <Ether_Man> %Documents%\OpenTTD\newgrf\
07:46:57  <Ether_Man> Ah right. The file it's missing isnt in the pack :/  stolentreesw_162_108.grf   only a testw.grf is in that folder
07:49:49  <Supercheese> not on Bananas?
07:49:55  <Supercheese> i.e. check online content?
07:50:28  <Ether_Man> Nope. Nothing in that pack seems to be found using that.
07:52:50  <Ether_Man> I would assume this has something to do with version for the save is 7.3 while the latest pack being 8.0 but cant find a 7.3 download either :/
07:57:46  <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=880938#p880938
07:58:53  <Flygon> Ether_Man: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/bridgemaster2.png
07:59:20  <Supercheese> Yo dawg, I heard you like bridges...
07:59:37  <Ether_Man> Alberth, md5 is different so ottd doesnt recognise it anyway. But I've given up now. I probably would not have understood the mess anyway :)
07:59:56  <Ether_Man> Flygon, no no no. S?dert?lje looks nothing like that :)
08:00:13  <Flygon> More, for ludicrous bridges xP
08:00:24  <Alberth> :(
08:01:34  <Alberth> we need bridges that show the tracks and roads
08:05:45  <Ether_Man> Btw. Last question before I stop playing for the day... I've seen quite a number of station designs today where they've put the platform to only be one or two in length. Is there any special benefit to this or what's up with that?
08:06:13  <Alberth> it takes less space, mostly
08:06:51  <Alberth> and since you build tracks around your station, you reduce space there as well
08:07:03  <Ether_Man> So basically, needs less space, but looks ugly as sin?
08:07:05  <Alberth> there is also the issue of block length
08:07:29  <Alberth> beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)
08:07:46  <peter1138> morning
08:08:27  <Alberth> just like it's not efficient to have a 20 tile track without signals, it's also not highly efficient to have a long platform for a short train
08:08:39  <Alberth> at least if you care enough about efficiency :)
08:08:46  <Alberth> morning peter
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08:09:19  <Ether_Man> Alberth, well no but they seem to be running quite long trains where the train is vastly longer than the platform.
08:13:08  <Supercheese> in unpatched OTTD that would cause significant loading delays
08:13:14  <Alberth> sure it's a station and not a waypoint?
08:14:31  <Ether_Man> Alberth, uses the original ttd station skin at least
08:15:16  <Alberth> you can use a station as pass-through point
08:15:40  <Ether_Man> Supercheese, does it even work? As in can a long train even use such a station? I kind of assumed they were only being used as some kind of stop to use advanced orders or something, hence the question
08:15:47  <Alberth> loading and unloading is possible but not advised
08:15:51  <Supercheese> ^ that
08:16:10  <Supercheese> Any train whose length in tiles is longer than the station will have severe penalty to loading speed
08:16:42  <Supercheese> You can use e.g. single-tile metros though for urban areas
08:17:01  <Supercheese> simulate light rail/underground or whatnot
08:18:19  <peter1138> hmm, need to get clothes for a funeral :S
08:21:11  <Ether_Man> peter1138, don't have a suit?
08:26:05  <Alberth> not an appropriate one, apparently
08:26:32  <peter1138> nope, don't have one at all
08:26:33  <Supercheese> T__T
08:26:41  <peter1138> i'm a coder :p
08:26:45  <Supercheese> clearly Alberth was implying the Birthday Suit
08:27:55  <Supercheese> oh wait, I meant to do
08:27:57  <Supercheese> -__-
08:28:01  <Supercheese> wrong emote derp
08:28:21  <Supercheese> bah, it's too late, should sleep
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09:05:41  <Wolf01> moin
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10:01:54  <Alberth> hi hi
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10:45:54  <Flygon> Supercheese: Dunno about overseas
10:46:19  <Flygon> But single car EMUs were a thing here for sets that were usually 6-8 cars long
10:46:46  <Flygon> Long story short: A few of the urban lines extended far enough to be considered regional...
10:47:12  <Flygon> In part because it was just easier to run EMUs for goods and pax. than steam locos for part of the line xP
10:47:23  <Flygon> Hurstbridge comes immediately to mind
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17:03:54  <andythenorth> o/
17:04:40  <Rubidium> ohla
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17:45:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27386 trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt (2015-08-14 19:45:16 +0200 )
17:45:25  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:26  <DorpsGek> dutch - 3 changes by TheTycoonist
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18:00:44  <andythenorth> Friday Cat
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18:01:46  <Supercheese> as opposed to Caturday eh
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18:02:10  <frosch123> does the "diff" function work for anyone on newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net ?
18:02:36  <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyN-CRNrb3E
18:03:02  <Supercheese> Hmm, no comparing revisions seems to be broken
18:03:11  <Supercheese> I noticed last night and thought it was just a fluke
18:03:33  <frosch123> orudge: comparing revisions seems broken on both tt-wiki and newgrf-specs.tt-wiki. the difference is always empty
18:04:05  <Supercheese> All right, who enabled wiki breakdowns? :P
18:04:25  <Supercheese> need to service at the wikidepot
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18:22:11  * andythenorth ponders
18:22:18  <andythenorth> eh, does _anyone_ use Iron Horse?
18:22:21  * andythenorth has a question
18:22:30  <frosch123> does _anyone_ ue openttd?
18:22:39  <frosch123> i am sure iron horse users are a subset of that
18:23:10  <andythenorth> they ask questions
18:23:16  <andythenorth> so they probably use OpenTTD
18:30:25  <Supercheese> I confess I have not used Iron Horse
18:30:56  <Supercheese> I find it extremely difficult to part ways with UKRS and NARS
18:31:56  <andythenorth> ha
18:32:38  * andythenorth ponders adding the pre-1860 trains
18:33:42  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5580/0-4-0_bury_0.PNG
18:35:10  <Supercheese> or a 4-2-0 Crampton-pattern?
18:38:09  <andythenorth> nah, not deviating from what Dan has already drawn :)
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21:10:14  <orudge> frosch123: hm, I upgraded Debian recently, which would have upgraded MediaWiki. I'll have to look into it.
21:11:28  <frosch123> sounds plausbile, the looks of it somewhat changed
21:11:42  <frosch123> cookie hints and such
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22:46:46  <Wolf01> night
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23:27:07  <Ether_Man> Anyone have a pic or guide for how to make high throughput merging? Been looking at a lot of different station designs, but I just cannot get anything I try to work very well. Testing various designs in a quite short loop where a 9 line ro-ro station needs to merge into a lower number, but even trying to merge them to three lines (any to any style), it creates massive problems even with a quite low amount of trains where it creates long queues on the in line
23:27:07  <Ether_Man> s because trains cant leave the station fast enough, even though 3 lines to 1 works flawlessly.
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23:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause> just make 3 3-to-1 merges
23:30:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no need to mix things
23:30:43  <Ether_Man> With the design I have in mind, it kind of does.
23:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> why? as long as the 3 lines run in parallel, and every exit can be reached from each of the 3 lines?
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23:32:36  <Ether_Man> Because the 3 lines only run in parallell for testing the station design. They're not intended to do so for the final thing
23:38:06  <_dp_> that's too much trains for one line, afaik 3-4 platforms per line is about max you can get without building some ridiculously complex compressors
23:38:18  <_dp_> at least that goes for 7 tile trains and TIM or Asia
23:39:23  <Ether_Man> _dp_, 9 to 3, is 3 platforms per line.
23:40:12  <_dp_> ah, I though you wantet to merge them to one line
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23:51:00  <Sylf> eh... any "good design" denpends on the context, when I build anything
23:55:55  <Ether_Man> Sylf, was gonna have a try at basically a star design network where all trains either feed the station or picks up any of their type that is there.
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23:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> mixing 9 platforms into 3 single track lines seems to me as an unnecessarily tight goal

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