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Log for #openttd on 15th September 2015:
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06:04:35  <andythenorth> lol wut?
06:12:33  <andythenorth> also musa doesn’t run under python 3
06:12:47  <andythenorth> but nmlc requires python 3
06:18:39  <V453000> :D
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06:30:55  <andythenorth> FIRS had an embarassing bug
06:30:58  <andythenorth> but nobody noticed
06:31:02  <andythenorth> so that’s ok
06:38:19  * edeca throws more cheese at andythenorth
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07:12:31  <andythenorth> what ho Pikka
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07:25:49  <Pikka> bonjour
07:26:21  <Pikka> also, silly interurbans :)
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08:13:26  <andythenorth> I replaced it with box cab anyway
08:13:31  <andythenorth> silly interurbans
08:13:34  <andythenorth> should be a tramz
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08:22:31  <andythenorth> NARS 2.5.1 is “Ultimate NARS” imo
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10:32:14  <wito> Minimum profit of individual trains: No longer a useful metric in the face bigger maps (transport routes taking over a year) and heavy use of cargo transfers?
10:33:11  <peter1138> nothing forces you to take long routes :p
10:34:38  <V453000> if anything, the game motivates you to have all vehicles turn some profit every year, which means if a vehicle has too long path and cannot do that yearly, it does not show in your score
10:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause> wito: have a station halfway through, and use "transfer and load" on it
10:35:36  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't help with the return trip, though
10:35:59  <wito> Right.
10:36:32  <wito> Pitch: Profit for vehicles that share orders are averaged out over them.
10:37:11  <Eddi|zuHause> every possible solution has also some drawbacks
10:37:20  <wito> So if you have a long transport line with lots of vehicles, that take over a yearyou get scored on the average profit instead of the instance profit.
10:38:43  <wito> The drawback in this case being?
10:38:59  <wito> I'm not saying there aren't any, I just can't see any on the spot.
10:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> for example, a train may always be following another train, so the first train gets all the cargo, and the second train nothing, then you won't get a warning that the second train never makes any money
10:40:59  <Eddi|zuHause> like, when you didn't put "full load" or something
10:41:26  <wito> Hmm.
10:41:30  <wito> Good point.
10:42:13  <wito> Although the current warning could be split into two: One for the whole group operating at a loss, and one for huge discrepancies between trains.
10:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, any metric you could come up with has a set of problems it won't be able to detect
10:42:33  <wito> Like: "Train 1 has less than 10 % of the income of Train 2"
10:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> like, pay programmers by how many lines of code they produce
10:43:08  <wito> But yeah, that<s true.
10:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> can't detect that people are just checking in garbage code, instead of figuring out the best way to do things
10:46:19  <wito> There's always the possibility of having it as an option, tho'
10:46:33  <wito> Give people enough rope to hang themselves with and all that. \;)
10:46:55  <wito> Feel confident that you can remember Wait until Full? Turn on averaging for better scoring.
10:53:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the best suggestion i heard about the issue was that you can set up for each vehicle that you want to get profit warning over a 1/2/4 year period
10:54:19  <wito> Well, that doesn't really help, tho'.
10:54:39  <wito> Unless the detailed scoring can also be set up for 1/2/4 year periods in terms of profit.
10:54:48  <wito> Detailed Performance Rating*
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12:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause> potential addiction warning: http://david-peter.de/cube-composer/
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12:42:04  <V453000> 0_0
12:42:35  <andythenorth> o_O
12:42:36  <andythenorth> ?
12:42:48  <V453000> I have been captured by cubez
12:43:11  <andythenorth> the game?
12:43:18  <V453000> yes
12:43:42  <andythenorth> hmm
12:43:47  * andythenorth needs a new game...
12:43:49  <andythenorth> but ugh, steam
12:44:25  <V453000> factorio on steam soon :P
12:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i posted one 5 seconds before you joined
12:47:12  <V453000> o
12:47:15  <V453000> http://david-peter.de/cube-composer/
12:54:57  <andythenorth> that’s a different cubez :P
12:55:01  <andythenorth> not the zombie game
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12:58:59  <andythenorth> hmm
12:59:04  <andythenorth> that will be my afternoon then
13:04:05  <Eddi|zuHause> took me about half an hour through
13:04:36  <andythenorth> I am level 2.2
13:04:47  <andythenorth> I’ll finish it later :P
13:04:51  * andythenorth must to work
13:04:57  <andythenorth> these tickets don’t invalidate themselves
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13:11:35  <V453000> 3.x is just WTF
13:11:42  <V453000> I understand the +-1
13:11:44  <V453000> but the rest...
13:11:50  <V453000> binary shit :D
13:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just the numbers 0 to 7, how hard can it be?
13:15:04  <V453000> I dont see that in it
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13:20:31  <Wolf01> op/
13:20:38  <Wolf01> mmm
13:20:49  <Wolf01> what's that thing on
13:21:10  <Wolf01> the side of my head
13:21:24  <Wolf01> (could not decide if left or right :P)
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13:26:27  <Wolf01> mmh train fever update
13:30:13  <andythenorth> it’s fun that the some of the transforms are order-independent
13:30:20  * andythenorth is stuck at 2.3
13:30:23  <andythenorth> and cba
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13:32:23  <andythenorth> hmm won by accident
13:32:25  <andythenorth> that is bad
13:32:32  <andythenorth> no skills :P
13:36:55  <Pikka> oops
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13:37:28  <andythenorth> go to bed pikka's
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13:49:54  <andythenorth> eh, are farms supposed to be prospected for (if prospecting is enabled)?
13:51:09  <planetmaker> sure
13:51:20  <planetmaker> you want to build them on fertile soil
13:51:30  <planetmaker> (besides they're primary industries)
13:51:36  <andythenorth> I should fix FIRS then :P
13:52:45  * andythenorth fixed
14:03:59  <dlhero> well it kinda happens right now as they seem to appear clustered
14:05:34  <andythenorth> ?
14:06:02  <andythenorth> they are broken in the current release and can’t be prospected for
14:06:31  <dlhero> I've never used that tbh.
14:08:00  <dlhero> I just made the comment, that in my current maps farms appear to be clustered together
14:08:26  <dlhero> so it kind of makes sense since they need fertile soil :P
14:10:54  <andythenorth> they do cluster ;)
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14:47:58  <alluke> those egrvts trailers distract me so much
14:48:08  <andythenorth> ?
14:48:16  <alluke> the axles are in the rear end
14:48:23  <alluke> meaning huge load on the tow hitch
14:48:36  <alluke> what was zephyris thinking
14:50:10  <andythenorth> he’s not a truck nerd
14:50:29  <alluke> i can see that
14:53:50  <alluke> plus the trailers wont be able to get over any obstacles
14:53:57  <alluke> they run out of ground clearance
15:01:17  <peter1138> are they that badly out of place|?
15:01:31  <peter1138> didn't look to bad to me, for a tiny image
15:01:34  <peter1138> +o
15:11:42  <andythenorth> all of my trucks launch themselves in the air
15:11:45  <andythenorth> when going down slopes
15:11:48  <andythenorth> shocking behaviour
15:12:11  <alluke> ottds fault :P
15:12:58  <peter1138> bad offsets
15:13:47  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
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15:42:55  <alluke> gotta love the map generator https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/N%C3%A4ytt%C3%B6kuva%202015-09-15%20kohteessa%2018.38.58.png
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16:33:22  <alluke> tÀnÀÀn tulee taas hottikset
16:33:26  <peter1138> i prefer to hate it
16:33:56  <andythenorth> I’m with him
16:34:07  <alluke> doh wrong chat
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16:40:03  <wito> Did the squirrel map generator ever get implemented?
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16:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
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17:10:31  <wito> Well, the squirrel map generator harness, I mean.
17:10:51  <wito> But yeah, probably not.
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17:15:50  * andythenorth has given up grumbling about map generator
17:16:06  <andythenorth> all I’m saying is, peter1138 had a way to make better heightmaps :P
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17:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> wito: if you want to tackle it, i'm sure it's not actually a hard problem, just an elaborate one. way back the map generation GUI was prepared to have more generators, that "just" needs hooking into the squirrel interface, and then some stuff to handle registering squirrel map generators, that can probably be adapted from scripts/AIs, and a bananas extension.
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17:45:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27398 trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt (2015-09-15 19:45:08 +0200 )
17:45:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 1 changes by xiangyigao
17:49:14  <andythenorth> hmm
17:49:18  <andythenorth> can’t finish the final cube
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17:50:09  <andythenorth> done it :P
17:50:54  * andythenorth should update the cdist wiki page
17:51:08  <andythenorth> now that the important work of finishing cubes is done
17:53:48  <Alberth> rubics cube, or another one?
17:54:16  <andythenorth> cube game Eddi found
17:54:29  <andythenorth> http://david-peter.de/cube-composer/
17:55:04  <Alberth> ah, voxely thingies
17:55:07  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I have a single instance of what I think is a minor cdist bug, in 2 savegames (before, after)
17:55:23  <andythenorth> I have only seen it once, I could run the game longer to see if I find it again
17:55:54  <andythenorth> train at a station on a new route, the linkgraph shows an established route, but no cargo is assigned (using station ‘planned’ view to check)
17:56:09  <andythenorth> running the train through the full order list caused cargo to be assigned
17:57:00  <andythenorth> it was the 3rd route added to the station, which fits to the pattern of behaviour I *think* I’ve seen for picking up freight cargos with full load orders
17:57:04  <andythenorth> but eh, might be imagined
17:58:38  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7471/cdist-oddity-2.zip
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18:15:17  <andythenorth> hmm
18:15:24  <andythenorth> thought I had a consistent repro on that
18:16:05  <andythenorth> replicated at another station, but ran the game three months and cargo was assigned
18:18:06  <andythenorth> ach it’s just latency
18:18:49  <Alberth> usually it is, in my experience
18:20:47  * andythenorth needs to see if running the route really solves the issue
18:20:58  <andythenorth> or if that happened to co-incide with latency catching up
18:28:04  <andythenorth> hmm, looks like it was conincidence
18:28:18  <andythenorth> it seems take ~3 months in my game to update the cargo routing
18:28:25  <andythenorth> the train took about that long to run the route :P
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18:29:15  <Alberth> I never check such things, I wouldn't know if that is long :)
18:29:54  <frosch123> damn, in this kind of puzzles the difficulties are always reversed
18:30:04  <frosch123> the "hard" ones are easy, and i fail with the "easy" ones :)
18:30:31  <Alberth> I failed to understand the first one even :)
18:30:51  <Alberth> I solved it by one click, but no idea what I did :p
18:31:11  <frosch123> well, you have to try the functions first, before advancing :)
18:33:53  <Alberth> that's what I was doing, but I missed that you have to read the whole text to understand :)
18:34:03  <andythenorth> I got them by dragging random combinations
18:34:14  <andythenorth> which given the number of possible options, should not have worked
18:34:16  <frosch123> done
18:34:21  <frosch123> 30 minutes, is that ok?
18:34:46  <andythenorth> same as Eddi
18:34:55  <andythenorth> took me about the same, guessing
18:35:02  <frosch123> aw, the only comparison that mattered :/
18:35:27  <andythenorth> it’s the benchmark
18:35:31  <andythenorth> Eddi is the baseline
18:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't sit there with a stopwatch...
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18:35:55  <frosch123> well, i do not quite know what squaring does to binary numbers
18:36:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i did
18:36:12  <frosch123> n't either
18:36:32  * andythenorth will now spend the evening testing cdist :(
18:36:47  <andythenorth> wondering if the latency is due to number of stations, or number of routes from a station, or such
18:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is a linkgraph update interval
18:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> 30 minutes was the time between the link being posted somewhere else, and me saying i was finished. i don't know how long the link stood there before i noticed it
18:41:32  <Alberth> just conclude it works? :)
18:41:39  <Alberth> andy ^
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18:45:28  <andythenorth> my guess is that the linkgraph update interval is only for the display
18:45:32  <andythenorth> not for cargo routing
18:45:36  <andythenorth> as best as I can understand
18:48:45  <andythenorth> hmm
18:48:54  * andythenorth looks in src/linkgraph again
18:49:57  <frosch123> no, it's the computation
18:50:44  <frosch123> it makes no sense to set the visualisation to faster/slowere compared to the computation
18:51:09  <andythenorth> but the visualisation is faster compared to the computation...
18:51:45  <andythenorth> the link is established immediately in the visualisation, but unused
18:52:08  <andythenorth> whereas cargo isn’t assigned for [undetermined period]
18:54:19  <frosch123> the description for "Take xxx days for recalculation of distribution graph" is quite clear to me
18:54:49  <andythenorth> agreed
18:55:03  <andythenorth> but the value of the setting is hard to relate to the behaviour in game
18:55:04  <frosch123> ah, there is another one about update of distribution graph
18:55:15  <andythenorth> there are 2 settings
18:55:45  <andythenorth> I have recalculation at ‘1 day'
18:55:58  <andythenorth> but it actually takes 3-4 months in game before cargo is assigned to routes
18:56:03  <andythenorth> *at certain stations*
18:56:32  <frosch123> well, you should make the value higher, not lower :)
18:57:04  <frosch123> set "days for recalculation of distribution graph" to twice the roundabout-time of your longest timetable, and everything should be fine
18:57:57  <frosch123> hmm, otoh, not sure it works like that
18:58:05  <frosch123> i miss another setting
18:58:24  <andythenorth> “The longer you set it, the longer it takes for the distribution to be updated when routes change"
18:58:29  <andythenorth> is why I set it to lowest possible value
19:01:47  * andythenorth investigates
19:01:52  <wito> andythenorth: I'm not sure that's useful.
19:02:11  <wito> I keep it at default, and I've never experienced it as laggy.
19:02:36  <Wolf01> how can i build a highway under a train bridge in this weird game? (tf)
19:02:57  <wito> tf?
19:03:04  <Wolf01> train fever
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19:04:31  <wito> Ah. Not familiar.
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19:06:22  <wito> Looks pretty sweet. Is it good?
19:06:33  <andythenorth> ok so it takes about 3-4 months before the planned view shows any cargo assigned, in the current game
19:06:38  * andythenorth tries in an empty map
19:14:11  <wito> andythenorth: Also, read the documentation for the settings.
19:14:25  <andythenorth> ?
19:15:06  <wito> What are your settings for the cdist?
19:15:19  <wito> Time taken, days between calculations, accuracy?
19:15:45  <andythenorth> 1, 2, 64
19:16:27  <wito> Oy.
19:16:35  <wito> Okay, I don't think the first one is helping you.
19:16:45  <wito> Try increasing it to the default (16) and see if that helps.
19:17:25  <andythenorth> that is opposed to the documentation
19:17:32  <andythenorth> it’s the documentation I’m trying to fix btw
19:17:49  <andythenorth> there are two issues, “what is cdist supposed to do?” and “improve the docs, because there’s FUD around it”
19:18:09  <wito> The documentation (in-game) seems pretty clear to me.
19:18:25  <andythenorth> “cdist assigns cargo based on capacity” is achieving the same FUD status as “towns grow if goods are supplied"
19:19:28  <andythenorth> if it’s clear, why are you recommending I ignore the recommendation for recalculation time? o_O :)
19:19:35  <andythenorth> can’t be that clear? o_O
19:21:26  <fonsinchen> andythenorth: The time it takes for the flows to be assigned depends on the number of link graph components in the map and the recalculation interval.
19:21:47  <fonsinchen> If you have tons of point-to-point links it takes longer than if you have a single large network.
19:22:29  <andythenorth> makes sense
19:24:22  <andythenorth> once I have my head clear on it, I’ll update the wiki to remove misconceptions and warn about ‘gotchas’
19:24:30  <andythenorth> remove / prevent /s
19:30:15  <andythenorth> ok I’ve narrowed down part of what I thought was buggy
19:31:47  <andythenorth> (testing with 4 stations and 3 trains on an otherwise empty map, to reduce concerns about performance on crowded maps)
19:34:20  <andythenorth> - station planned view updates quickly, as expected, and trains added to an existing station are assigned cargo, as expected
19:34:27  <andythenorth> (testing with a busier map)
19:35:11  <andythenorth> - station planned view updates after ~3 months, and trains added to an existing station (new route) are assigned cargo when that happens
19:35:51  <andythenorth> - but trains added to new (otherwise unserved) stations are assigned cargo immediately, even though none is planned
19:36:06  <andythenorth> which is all probably as expected, but sticks out as inconsistent behaviour
19:36:20  * andythenorth has turned into one of those people with an obsession :(
19:36:36  <andythenorth> next I’ll be saying the scale isn’t accurate
19:52:03  <andythenorth> hmm
19:52:32  <andythenorth> that latency probably grows geometrically as routes are built
19:53:37  <andythenorth> that _might_ be the reason why I saw cargo never being assigned to new routes, late in a long game on a well-developed map
19:53:57  <andythenorth> and why building a totally new pickup station would mitigate the behavious
19:54:08  <andythenorth> behaviour *
19:55:50  <edeca> Bah, are there known problems with gasoline stations from ECS?  I can't build a road stop that will accept gasoline next to a petrol station.  A 1x1 rail station doesn't work either.  Larger rail stations work fine.  Confused :|
19:56:37  <Taede> does the larger station cover more than one gasoline station perhaps?
19:57:18  <andythenorth> get the question mark icon
19:57:25  <Taede> i'd guess a single petrol station does not accept a full 8/8 gasoline, but instead only 4/8
19:57:26  <andythenorth> and check the tile acceptance on the industry
19:57:36  <Taede> yeah, query tool
19:59:01  <edeca> Will check, thanks :)
19:59:29  <edeca> Nope, square shows 6/8 gasoline acceptance
20:01:17  <andythenorth> how many tiles in the industry?
20:01:28  <V453000> 666
20:02:06  <andythenorth> wot larks
20:08:37  <edeca> andythenorth: The industry is 1x1 petrol station, is that what you mean?
20:08:57  <andythenorth> yup
20:09:13  <andythenorth> tile acceptance is summed for station
20:09:26  <andythenorth> you need at least 8/8 or so
20:09:32  <andythenorth> otherwise no acceptance
20:09:38  <andythenorth> iirc
20:10:10  <fonsinchen> andythenorth: Cargodist likes it if you connect all zour stations for each cargo.
20:10:32  <fonsinchen> Somewhat naturally, I'd say.
20:10:34  <andythenorth> yeah, I’m wondering if point-point for freight just breaks cdist in a long game
20:10:55  <fonsinchen> It will take longer for new components to get cargo assigned
20:11:06  <andythenorth> in which case ‘manual’ would be wiser for freight
20:11:08  <andythenorth> but that’s a shame
20:11:10  <andythenorth> I like cdist
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20:11:42  <fonsinchen> A simple optimization would be to calculate multiple small components in a single job. But I don't have time to implement that right now.
20:11:44  <andythenorth> with distance effect 0%, the only remaining problem for freight transport is this latency
20:11:59  <andythenorth> eh np, thanks for answering at all :)
20:12:49  <fonsinchen> Or schedule multiple small jobs in the same thread or whatever.
20:13:20  <fonsinchen> The point-to-point jobs are quick to calculate so itÀs wasteful to create a new thread for each anyway.
20:13:52  <andythenorth> out of interest, how is the first route from a station assigned?
20:14:27  <andythenorth> because the latency doesn’t apply there, cargo is loaded straight away
20:14:36  <fonsinchen> What is a "first route"? Cargodist sees connected components, that is all stations reachable from some station and the links between them.
20:14:58  <andythenorth> case where I build a station, and send the first vehicle to it
20:15:09  <fonsinchen> The components are scheduled for demand and flow calculation one by one
20:15:10  <andythenorth> it always loads ~instantly
20:15:27  <fonsinchen> So if you have only one component it's almost instant
20:15:46  <fonsinchen> if you have 1000 components it takes forever for a change in one to take effect on the link graph
20:16:05  <fonsinchen> (unless you're lucky and it's scheduled next already)
20:16:08  <edeca> andythenorth: Thanks, I think I vaguely understand
20:16:50  <fonsinchen> andythenorth: If you build only point-to-point links each pair of stations with a train between them is a new component.
20:17:10  <edeca> andythenorth: I actually see a second petrol station with 4/8 acceptance in the same town that I missed.  I assume they are being summed :)
20:17:13  <fonsinchen> because no other stations are reachable from either.
20:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: they have to be in the catchment radius of the station
20:18:29  <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Yes that makes sense now.  Just bizarre as I can't easily deliver gasoline using trucks, but no problems!
20:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> man, this cat suspiciously ogles my Hackepeterbrötchen
20:18:35  <fonsinchen> "one by one" is not entirely correct because you can give it some parallelism by setting the calculation time higher than the interval.
20:19:30  <andythenorth> when the station is previously unserved, what causes the first vehicle to be loaded before the component is updated?
20:19:42  * andythenorth wonders if it’s special case, or side-effect of something else
20:19:50  <fonsinchen> If no plan is available any vehicle will load any cargo
20:20:07  <andythenorth> yeah that explains it completely
20:20:18  <fonsinchen> You can see that in the "waiting" view, it's the "to any station" cargo.
20:20:46  <andythenorth> yup
20:21:09  <andythenorth> thanks
20:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like a mode where it never generates "to any station" cargo... it somewhat poisons initial transfer routes
20:22:01  <andythenorth> I’d like a mode where it always generates ‘to any station’ cargo :)
20:22:11  <andythenorth> 1/(number destinations + 1)
20:22:21  <andythenorth> and a pony
20:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> we do have that, it's called "manual" :p
20:22:33  <andythenorth> manual is lame
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20:23:25  <andythenorth> at 0% distance, cdist has some neat side effects for freight
20:23:29  <fonsinchen> Would both be easy to do. Just hook into the function where cargo is delivered to the station and change the next hop selection.
20:23:44  <andythenorth> e.g. side-effects like automatically splitting supplies evenly over the number of destinations
20:23:49  <andythenorth> and so on
20:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: am i understanding you correctly that having lots of small connected components makes the update very slow to react, as opposed to one large connected component (with roughly the same number of stations/connections)
20:24:16  <fonsinchen> Yes
20:25:17  <fonsinchen> Ah, not so easy to do. You'd have to carry a flag in the cargo packets "Drop this if no route available at any station" or "Never assign a next hop anywhere" as the next hop selection is repeated at each station.
20:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the dropping only needs a global flag
20:26:18  <fonsinchen> true
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20:28:17  * andythenorth wonders about patching distance effect to apply to some cargos only
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20:28:59  <fonsinchen> it's mostly a UI problem. Where do you put all those settings?
20:29:21  <andythenorth> agreed
20:30:08  <Eddi|zuHause> also, how do you group the cargos? by town effect? by cargo class? by new NewGRF flag?
20:30:15  <andythenorth> I wanted to hard-code the cargos in a local patch to test the effect
20:30:29  * andythenorth reading demands.cpp
20:30:33  * fonsinchen faintly remembers going nuts about that before
20:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there have been plenty of discussions about that, i'm sure
20:30:59  <andythenorth> overkill
20:31:38  <andythenorth> for what I want, 0% gives nice flat demand for freight
20:31:48  <andythenorth> I just wonder if it makes pax weird
20:33:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you just get even more totally overloaded with passengers
20:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> as they travel larger distances
20:33:40  <fonsinchen> The distance effect is in fact a good thing for most passenger networks.
20:34:01  <andythenorth> eh, the pax overload is because the number delivered per vehicle trip is so much lower compared to default TTD?
20:34:16  <andythenorth> especially because nobody bothers transferring pax, because pax transfers are dumb in default game?
20:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each hop that one passenger travels, original TTD would have a new passenger for
20:34:36  <fonsinchen> Were the default TTD vehicles larger than the OpenTTD ones?
20:34:45  <andythenorth> nah
20:34:57  <andythenorth> not iirc
20:34:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, in original you could ignore excess passengers
20:35:01  <andythenorth> yeah
20:35:31  <andythenorth> if I cared enough, I could probably make a house set that dumped pax production right down?
20:35:43  <Eddi|zuHause> effectively, if a passenger travels on average 4 hops, you need 4 times the capacity
20:35:46  <fonsinchen> The real point is that the passengers usually transfer more often if they travel larger distnaces
20:36:13  <fonsinchen> (except if you have a rather weird network)
20:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you don't have the capacity and it travels only 3 hops, you don't get paid
20:36:36  <Eddi|zuHause> but it still blocked 3/4 of your capacity
20:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause> where originally would have paid you for each leg individually
20:37:15  <andythenorth> ‘prefer local trips'
20:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that is exactly what the distance setting does
20:37:34  <andythenorth> I know :)
20:37:39  * andythenorth just wonders how many players really would need to set the distance effect for non-pax cargo
20:37:46  <andythenorth> really?
20:37:49  <andythenorth> really really?
20:38:23  <andythenorth> flat demand for all cargos except pax, and rename the setting slightly?
20:38:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you could try that
20:39:06  <andythenorth> ‘but players will complain’ :)
20:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> add a setting: "distance only affects passengers"
20:39:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (include tourists, etc)
20:39:43  <andythenorth> yeah it has to be by class I think
20:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> would make a possibly interesting case for mail distribution, as it will go much further than the passengers
20:41:15  <andythenorth> there should be a special profile for mail
20:41:35  <andythenorth> modelling junk mail :P
20:41:50  <andythenorth> most houses receive *far* more mail than they send :P
20:41:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i talked about this before, there should be an incentive for actually distributing mail, goods, food among the city, instead of just dropping it somewhere
20:42:08  <andythenorth> hmm
20:42:13  <andythenorth> even Busy Bee doesn’t do that
20:42:30  <andythenorth> it provides mail goals, but to the city, not within the city
20:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> currently, that hurts your profits rather than improve things
20:42:43  <andythenorth> although I don’t know how CargoMonitor works, maybe it counts within the city
20:43:12  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
20:44:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what’s the upside to distributing within the city?  Why better gameplay?
20:44:53  <wito> It gives trucks more purpose?
20:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> there currently isn't one, that's the point.
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20:46:13  <andythenorth> other than a town growth goal, what would force it?
20:46:27  <andythenorth> cdist already does it with distance, if enabled
20:47:55  <fonsinchen> good night
20:49:22  <andythenorth> bye fonsinchen :)
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20:54:00  <andythenorth> hmm
20:54:12  <andythenorth> what if pax generation was conditional?
20:54:30  <andythenorth> and gave pax pre-computed destinations
20:54:47  <andythenorth> they are only *moved to station* if the destination is in the linkgraph
20:55:34  <andythenorth> after that it’s all just cdist flow-managed, the ‘destination’ is seen as statistical and ignored
20:56:02  <andythenorth> then 50% or so of pax could favour same town, or even quadrants of the town
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20:56:16  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: dunno, trying to think how to achieve your goal ^
20:56:38  <andythenorth> if you don’t serve the map zone, you don’t get passengers generated
20:57:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: YACD did that
20:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it dropped cargo if the destination wasn't reachable
20:57:18  <andythenorth> yeah, but YACD had performance problems with routing...
20:57:31  <andythenorth> allegedly
20:57:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you can simulate something by maintaining a figure about how much of the world you connected with your network
20:58:04  <andythenorth> all I knew was that YACD was a lot of fun, and I needed to keep my laptop plugged in :P
20:58:08  <andythenorth> but that is a digression
20:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but determining that value is a bit tricky
20:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> if you set that figure as station rating, it would automatically drop a part of the cargo
20:59:23  <andythenorth> I am short of other ideas to incentivise intra-town distribution
20:59:27  <andythenorth> money is boring
20:59:32  <andythenorth> town growth is boring
20:59:53  <andythenorth> two cargo types?  ‘Commuters’, ‘Tourists’? :P
21:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> messing with station rating has problems with other cargos though, as it influences industry closure and stuff
21:01:30  * andythenorth must to bed
21:01:31  <andythenorth> bye
21:01:32  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
21:20:02  <edeca> LOL, the opengfx petrol statoin looks like a giant cola can
21:23:43  <Sylf> eh? not the fizzy drink factory in toyland?
21:26:21  <edeca> http://i.imgur.com/HprFqxW.png
21:27:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it probably a use of a wrong baseset sprite
21:28:00  <edeca> Oops!
21:28:05  <Sylf> yeah, that's the graphic for fizzy drink factory. you've been adding and removing industry grf in the game?
21:28:16  <edeca> Sylf: No, nothing has been added or removed after I started the game
21:29:12  <edeca> http://i.imgur.com/9rou1gx.png <- NewGRF list
21:29:32  <edeca> UK Town Set may have broken it perhaps?
21:30:28  <Sylf> what is ECS Industries Addon?
21:30:35  <Sylf> the last item
21:31:18  <edeca> Hm, no idea, I just added everything in my list that was ECS.
21:32:17  <Sylf> it is not a part of George's ECS that I know of
21:32:34  <edeca> No, you are right.  I just selected everything in bananas.  Thanks for spotting it, will start a new game :)
21:32:52  <Sylf> you have ecs houses, UK houses, TaI houses and TTRS loaded too
21:33:11  <Eddi|zuHause> ECS houses is redundant if you have TTRS
21:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it just adds the TTRS buildings that are required for the cargo chains
21:33:47  <Eddi|zuHause> like the fuel station
21:33:49  <edeca> So leave TTRS and ditch the rest?
21:34:29  <Sylf> you can keep ttrs, uk and tai houses on if you want
21:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the main feature of TaI houses is limited town growth, which doesn't work if you mix it with other house sets
21:34:54  <Sylf> yeah. tai houses is special
21:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and UK houses and TaI houses probably contain the same stuff
21:36:01  <edeca> Thanks both :)
21:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i don't think BROS contains anything useful :p
21:37:44  <edeca> I was playing with a bunch last night to find a selection of nice stations
21:39:04  <Sylf> BROS has 3-4 passenger trains that may or may not work
21:39:31  <edeca> Sylf: Do you have a preferred list of grfs?
21:39:31  <Sylf> it's not a station set
21:39:36  <Sylf> no
21:40:16  <Sylf> the useful list changes all the time
21:40:24  <edeca> Interesting, removing those grfs I can't fund a petrol station now, but they still appear in the game so that's fine
21:41:24  <edeca> Yes, the ability to fund a petrol station comes from that weird unofficial ECS grf you noticed.  Thanks Sylf
21:43:22  * edeca goes for sleep
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23:23:40  <drac_boy> hi pikka? :)
23:23:57  <Pikka> possibly?
23:24:16  <drac_boy> heh..hows the artist anyway? :)
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23:25:32  <Pikka> fine, I suppose.
23:26:53  <drac_boy> seem like you been busy with a lot of graphics these months no?
23:27:52  <Pikka> now and then. and busy with other things too.
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23:38:56  <drac_boy> heh ok
23:48:16  <Wolf01> 'night
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