Log for #openttd on 23rd September 2015:
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01:36:45  <supermop> yo Pikka
01:47:18  <Pikka> yoyo
01:55:10  <supermop> hows it going down there?
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02:05:01  <Pikka> not bad :) where are you now?
02:31:58  <supermop> new york again
02:32:03  <supermop> sorry for the delay
02:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> delays might be due to the distance.
02:37:34  <supermop> and how is the continent Eddi|zuHause
02:38:26  <Eddi|zuHause> dark
02:38:59  <supermop> as is here
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09:07:35  * vnepom slaps vnepom around a bit with a large fishbot
09:09:10  <openbu> ..
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09:41:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not dark anymore, btw.
09:57:08  <Pikka> thank goodness
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11:59:13  <Wolf01> o/
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13:38:19  <andythenorth> o/
13:38:20  <andythenorth> is cat
13:39:20  * andythenorth wishes minimap-linked cargo chains could be filtered by ‘accepts’ or ‘produces'
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13:47:58  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a useful UI suggestion that won't make it totally overloaded...
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14:32:25  <DanMacK> Hey all
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15:06:01  <andythenorth> I can’t find the max ID for articulated parts in the spec
15:06:49  <andythenorth> 16384?
15:06:56  <andythenorth> for trailing parts only?
15:07:59  <peter1138> Why does it matter?
15:08:13  <peter1138> Oh, max ID. I read it as max parts :p
15:08:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probably a -1 on that
15:09:01  <andythenorth> sounds plausible
15:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the highest bit in the 15-bit callback is reserved for "reverse this vehicle"
15:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 14 bits
15:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> which can have values 0..2^14-1
15:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> note that that last ID cannot be returned in combination with "reverse"
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15:33:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you know if the limit is for trailing parts only?
15:33:14  <andythenorth> I can’t find the relevant info in the newgrf wiki
15:33:19  <andythenorth> I’m sure it’s there somewhere
15:34:11  <peter1138> what does that mean?
15:34:37  <peter1138> oh, last part
15:34:48  <peter1138> afaik the limit is for all parts
15:35:38  <andythenorth> hmm
15:35:42  <andythenorth> actually the limit is 8192
15:36:05  <andythenorth> that’s rather a lot less than I thought
15:36:05  <peter1138> just stick with 120 IDs or so
15:36:31  <andythenorth>
15:36:32  <peter1138> when will you ever have a vehicle set with 8192 items in it...
15:36:38  <andythenorth> in 12 years
15:37:35  <andythenorth> 3 IDs per vehicle minimum
15:37:50  <andythenorth> 6 if e.g. steam engine with a tender, or such
15:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, that seems too low
15:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the leading part can be 64k, the trailing parts 16k
15:39:18  <andythenorth> ok so if I stuff all leading parts > 16k, I just gained another ~5000 IDs
15:39:24  <andythenorth> that could be workable
15:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that works if you don't take tenders out of the same ID pool
15:39:54  <peter1138> meh, i never understand the terminology you guys use these days
15:40:03  <peter1138> but then again i don't see why you need that many IDs
15:40:15  <peter1138> i just increased it cos 256 seemed low, not because you need 64k IDs :S
15:40:26  <andythenorth> well
15:40:33  <andythenorth> vehicles “need” 3 parts
15:40:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't either, CETS has about 1000 vehicles, so 3000-ish IDS
15:40:46  <peter1138> why do vehicles need 3 parts?
15:40:53  <peter1138> they were always 1
15:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: to be longer than half a tile
15:41:14  <peter1138> well that's a broken concept in ottd anyway
15:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is
15:41:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody is going to fix it
15:41:49  <andythenorth> also
15:41:59  <andythenorth> I “need” to put ~12 grfs into one grf
15:42:13  <andythenorth> with a parameter to select the actual set to be used
15:42:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's still only like 1200 vehicles, assuming each individual roster doesn't have more than 100
15:43:06  <andythenorth> there are 74 in the brit roster
15:43:11  <andythenorth> that consumes 1000 IDs
15:43:19  <peter1138> why 1000 vehicles anyway :S
15:43:20  <andythenorth> because of lazy allocation choices
15:43:33  <andythenorth> the irony here
15:43:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that is your hand-made problem
15:43:36  <andythenorth> somewhat
15:43:50  <andythenorth> is that this all arises from making a deliberately small set
15:43:57  <peter1138> worrying about ID allocation shouldn't even be a thing
15:44:19  <andythenorth> there are only 28 engines here
15:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> there are loads of things that shouldn't be things
15:44:39  <andythenorth> 46 wagons
15:44:45  <andythenorth> but 1000 IDs :P
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15:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> 5 generations of wagons with 10 types each, or something
15:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it adds up
15:45:19  <andythenorth> I could just stop spanking IDs
15:45:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but your problem is not the amount of vehicles
15:45:32  <andythenorth> no it’s the lazy lazy allocation
15:45:33  <Eddi|zuHause> your problem is your weird padding
15:45:45  <andythenorth> you might have convinced me to solve it again
15:45:57  <andythenorth> I was hoping for the quick fix, but Dan has convinced me we need 12 rosters
15:46:04  <andythenorth> and I can only fit 10 with my quick fix
15:46:15  <andythenorth> meh
15:46:49  <andythenorth> but still, I doubt there are more than 1500 vehicles in 12 rosters
15:46:57  <andythenorth> so 4500 IDs should be used
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15:47:22  <andythenorth> now I have to do it ‘properly’ :(
15:47:29  <peter1138> which is well below 8191 or 16383
15:48:17  <andythenorth> the ‘problem’ is that I wanted to auto-generate wagon IDs, but in a stable way
15:48:30  <andythenorth> eh nvm, I’ll have to set them manually
15:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS just enumerates them in the table...
15:48:44  <andythenorth> I have no table
15:48:52  <andythenorth> I tried the table route, I think it’s faff
15:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> make a hashtable :p
15:48:59  <andythenorth> yeah
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15:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> hope for no conflicts :p
15:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> collisions
15:49:41  <andythenorth> currently I have this total horror
15:49:42  <andythenorth>
15:49:50  <andythenorth> I have a collision guard already
15:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is, frankly, very optimistic when fitting 1000 objects into 4k-ish IDs)
15:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that collision guard is almost guaranteed to break the stability
15:50:40  <andythenorth> eh?
15:50:53  <andythenorth> the collision guard just raises an error in the compile
15:51:11  <andythenorth> collisions aren’t allowed, by design, if there is one, it’s coder error
15:54:09  <andythenorth> I think it’s just easier to manually allocate IDs
15:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it's just an additional number field in whatever you use to generate the file, what you refuse to call a table, but essentially is one.
15:56:54  <andythenorth> the data is effectively tabular yes
15:57:07  <andythenorth> you are right actually, it would be trivial to generate a table
15:57:11  <andythenorth> err
15:57:13  <andythenorth> eh I do :P
15:57:36  <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
15:58:13  <andythenorth> ok so ‘enumerates them in the table’ is the same as ‘define the ID in the .py file that defines the vehicle’
15:58:21  <andythenorth> and that’s what I should do for wagons
15:58:37  <andythenorth> and new ones simply get appended to the end of the list
16:01:27  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i also have code that spews out unused IDs below the highest used ID
16:01:34  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. gaps)
16:01:36  <andythenorth> yup
16:01:51  <andythenorth> ok, this is the way forward
16:01:56  <andythenorth> just means more re-factoring :P
16:02:03  <andythenorth> it’s how Road Hog works already
16:02:20  <andythenorth> ta
16:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> of which currently there are a lot, because at some point we removed the swiss and austrian vehicles, due to compilation problems. and nobody bothered to put them back
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16:08:48  <andythenorth> Alberth :)
16:09:07  <Alberth> hi hi, andy
16:09:19  <Alberth> feeling happy ?  :)
16:09:44  <andythenorth> eh yes
16:11:19  <Eddi|zuHause> has anyone ever figured out what "like a room without a roof" means?
16:12:50  <Alberth> assuming it's not what it says, nope
16:13:02  <ST2> maybe this?
16:13:18  <andythenorth> sounds daft
16:13:41  <andythenorth> Alberth: you know how we have the cargo chains view, linked to the minimap
? o_O
16:14:01  <Alberth> you marked one of the FIRS 2.0 releases as compatible with 1.5 by accident, andy?  Otherwise not having FIRS for 1.5 sounds buggish
16:14:07  <Alberth> I read that, yeah
16:14:19  <andythenorth> I can’t think of any sensible UI, but filter by accept/produce would be nice
16:14:29  <andythenorth> yeah the FIRS thing is apparently by design in OpenTTD
16:14:37  <andythenorth> might be accidental, side-effect design
16:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> bananas hides all older versions, even if the newest one is not compatible with the version of openttd
16:15:38  <Alberth> if that's what it does, it's a bug, imho
16:15:52  <andythenorth> FIRS 2.0.0 releases are all marked as min. compatible r24998
16:16:05  <andythenorth> which makes all FIRS releases non-available in OpenTTD < r24998
16:16:08  <andythenorth> all, ever
16:16:22  <Alberth> :(
16:16:29  <andythenorth> and there’s no way back
16:16:38  <Alberth> a bit too aggressive filtering thus
16:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> talk to the author of bananas :p
16:16:55  <andythenorth> even if a patch was provided, we can’t patch the 1.5.x client fleet
16:17:00  <Alberth> I think what you did is right
16:17:14  <Alberth> I don't know who does the filtering
16:17:19  <andythenorth> or is the filtering on the bananas server end, hmm
16:17:23  <Alberth> maybe the bananas server does
16:17:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably the server
16:17:33  <andythenorth> but bananas is non-upgradeable?
16:17:51  <andythenorth> there is no sane deployment step, last I checked
16:18:00  <andythenorth> eh, frosch bundled it into a VM though
16:18:18  <andythenorth> the mildly frustrating thing is
16:18:27  <andythenorth> there will be no 1.6.x until April 2016 likely
16:19:08  <andythenorth> and there is no way for me to fix this via bananas either, because
.by design, no removal of grfs
16:19:44  <andythenorth> maybe I could version bump FIRS 1.4.4 to FIRS 1.4.5 and re-upload that, compatible with OpenTTD 1.5.x
16:19:59  <andythenorth> but I merged by v2 branch to default branch in the FIRS repo :P
16:20:18  <andythenorth> and I have no idea how to split a new branch out from history to make a 1.4.x release now
16:20:22  <andythenorth> so much faff :P
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16:24:01  <Alberth> evenink
16:26:19  <planetmaker> hi ho
16:27:15  <planetmaker> andythenorth, Alberth the bananas server decides what's available for which version. However you get a particular NewGRF *always*, if your safegame needs it
16:27:52  <planetmaker> The (needless) limitation is that only the newest upload is available for normal download. If it limits openttd's versions, then all other versions of OpenTTD are kinda screwed and cannot get any other except by means of a safegame
16:29:23  <frosch123> hoi
16:31:50  <Alberth> so upload a 1.5 savegame that requires FIRS, and people can use that to get FIRS....  hm......
16:39:48  <planetmaker> that requires the 1.5-compatible FIRS. yes
16:39:55  <planetmaker> make it a good scenario and it's worth it :)
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16:50:53  <andythenorth> is bananas server tractable?
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17:00:35  <planetmaker> tractable? What does that mean?
17:00:45  <andythenorth> can we do work on it? :)
17:00:51  <andythenorth> without descending into sadness
17:01:44  <planetmaker> oh... hm... frosch knows that best :) I think he has a VM
17:01:49  <andythenorth> I have the VM too
17:02:03  <planetmaker> ok... then I do think it can be done.
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18:13:01  <andythenorth> ach, also
18:13:08  <andythenorth> have I ballsed up svn -> git versions?
18:13:11  <andythenorth> that is tedious
18:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you just said
18:14:39  <andythenorth> oh FFS
18:14:45  <andythenorth> r27279 isn’t r27279
18:15:05  <andythenorth> it’s r27403
18:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the current nightly?
18:16:30  <andythenorth> hmm
18:16:40  <andythenorth> no I think foobar is mistaken maybe
18:17:21  * andythenorth puts his glasses on
18:17:24  <andythenorth> I have become that person
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18:20:04  <andythenorth> I fat-fingered the version for FIRS anyway, somehow
18:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't know what you're talking about
18:21:34  <andythenorth> the changelog and musa.ini specify r24998 for FIRS 2
18:21:44  <andythenorth> but the actual version needed is r27279
18:21:50  <andythenorth> so I just made a plain dumb mistake somehow
18:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot to update the value?
18:22:50  <andythenorth> I did something stupid
18:23:03  <andythenorth> I even have irc transcript where frosch gives me the correct number, and later I repeat it
18:23:06  <andythenorth> :P
18:23:07  <andythenorth> meh
18:23:18  * andythenorth should never be allowed to release anything
18:23:24  <andythenorth> I fuck up about 50% of releases
18:27:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: the vm also runs the bananas server, if you patch openttd with a different content server ip, that connects to the vm, you can download stuff from it
18:28:02  <andythenorth> eh well, I needed a new project :P
18:28:08  <andythenorth> bananas needs some work
18:28:10  <andythenorth> buuuuut
18:28:18  <andythenorth> Dan is back, and I want to do newgrfs :P
18:28:36  <andythenorth> can’t everyone just get a nightly? :(
18:28:49  <V453000> :)
18:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to the idea to allow multiple bananas-servers? like one exclusively for legacy grf-pack GRFs, without upload capabilities and thus avoiding some licensing traps that the current bananas doesn't want to touch
18:31:51  <andythenorth> it took up residence in your brain, to be re-stated when the time was right (now)
18:32:02  <andythenorth> oh, we want non-obvious answers? o_O
18:32:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure the question was rhethoric
18:32:35  <andythenorth> there is too much useful discussion here today, I only came here for the cat pictures?
18:32:42  <andythenorth> -?
18:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> taking pictures of a black cat is tricky
18:35:32  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you can totally do that, distribute a custom binary with a custom bananas servers, which only hosts adult-only grfs
18:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i meant more like config settings for multiple servers simultaneously
18:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and a GUI to add/remove servers
18:36:23  <frosch123> honestly i don't see the point :)
18:36:47  <frosch123> everyone uses bananas, and those who don't won't use something else either
18:37:13  <frosch123> and the "allow servers to send grfs to clients" idea, was quite unpopular in the past
18:38:35  <andythenorth> hmm
18:38:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the two ideas that floated around were the already mentioned GRF pack, where authors are either unwilling or unavailable, and the other idea was "beta" versions of GRFs
18:38:46  <andythenorth> we’d never backport 27279 to 1.5.x?
18:38:50  <andythenorth> it’s not a trivial bug fix
18:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no.
18:39:12  <peter1138> let's do firefox/chrome style releases
18:39:23  <peter1138> openttd 6
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18:39:37  <peter1138> forced updates
18:39:39  <frosch123> well, if there are no bugfixes, we don't need any release branches :)
18:39:59  <peter1138> require signed mods
18:40:19  <frosch123> oh, how much does a grf author licence cost?
18:40:47  <andythenorth> €500
18:40:54  <frosch123> hm, wait, let's reverse the case
18:40:56  <andythenorth> for €1500 we get first-line support
18:41:08  <frosch123> we only charge if you retire from grf authorship :)
18:41:15  <Supercheese> nah it should be a monthly fee
18:41:35  <peter1138> built in newgrf-store, accepts paypal
18:41:48  <peter1138> newgrf authors get a cut
18:42:05  <frosch123> oh yes, there should definitely be an option to convert real money into ingame money :)
18:42:07  <andythenorth> €1 per download
18:42:15  <andythenorth> openttd takes 80%
18:42:17  <andythenorth> like Apple
18:42:20  <peter1138> hmm
18:42:32  <peter1138> yes, buy "in-game" currency
18:42:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, downloads cost gold, not money
18:42:48  <frosch123> yuo can get cold my converting real money, or by playing ottd for hours
18:42:56  <andythenorth> nah you need a second currency
18:43:00  <andythenorth> bucks, or diamonds
18:43:05  <peter1138> also the base game should contain 2 maps and 2 or 3 vehicles of each class
18:43:06  <andythenorth> which isn’t available from gold
18:43:10  <Alberth> bitcoins :p
18:43:11  <andythenorth> only by tedious side tasks
18:43:18  <Supercheese> well, diamonds are already in vanilla OTTD, but as a cargo
18:43:21  <Supercheese> might be confusing
18:43:48  <peter1138> we should also have in-game advertising
18:43:49  <Alberth> Supercheese: yeah, I always wonder why the euros I earn are never in my wallet!
18:45:35  <frosch123> would be kind of heavy
18:45:47  <frosch123> getting paid in euro coins
18:46:11  <Alberth> for a 7 digit number I don't mind
18:46:26  <Supercheese> get paid in pennies, be forced to use your own trains to move the tons and tons of coins around
18:46:48  <Alberth> ha, "pennies" would be a fun cargo :p
18:46:53  <ST2> or Zimbabwe dollars :P
18:47:32  <frosch123> ST2: no hyperinflation ever happened when coins were involved :)
18:47:49  <ST2> so "pennies" will be ^^
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18:56:51  <andythenorth> well
18:57:16  <andythenorth> the problem is
18:57:22  <andythenorth> I could invent a bank
18:57:49  <andythenorth> which would produce a ‘money’ cargo, but require delivery of the actual input later
18:57:53  <andythenorth> like lending
18:58:15  <andythenorth> I think I can actually code this in newgrf
18:58:24  <andythenorth> make the delivery requirements tied to previous production
18:58:33  <andythenorth> if there is not enough the bank fails (closes)
18:58:38  <andythenorth> BUT
18:58:48  <andythenorth> all other banks keep count of the number of bank industries on the map
18:59:02  <andythenorth> if one closes, the others then have a random dice roll as to whether they close
18:59:17  <andythenorth> with an increasing chance of closeure as more others close
18:59:50  <andythenorth> in fact, I can exploit the problem I found when I tried to fine-tune closure in newgrf, which is multiple industries of the same type all closing in the same month
19:00:28  <andythenorth> this simulates real lending, rather than the myth of deposit-backed lending
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20:58:54  <andythenorth> ho
20:59:02  <peter1138> i'm not
20:59:03  <andythenorth> refactoring the Iron Horse IDs was really easy
20:59:04  <andythenorth> :P
20:59:14  * andythenorth must have learnt _something_ about code
20:59:16  <andythenorth> dunno what
21:04:06  <andythenorth> 1300 IDs for 130 vehicles
21:04:10  <andythenorth> makes more sense :P
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23:52:19  <Wolf01> 'night
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