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00:00:17 <Wolf01> http://www.quirkydays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Brennans-monorail-1_4x3-600x338.jpg ah! 00:00:46 <Wolf01> i knew monorail opened the road for more weirdness 00:01:31 <drac_boy> wolf01 well..there were weird attempts at gyro-powered vehicles both on road and rail 00:02:19 <drac_boy> would you believe a 2+outrigger car that only had a small engine (like 10-40hp or something) turning a large gryo wheel which hence also drove the main tires too 00:02:39 <drac_boy> for obvious reasons I think it never made to mass production :) 00:06:06 <drac_boy> wolf01 not in the same 'strange' sense but how about this? http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr1t9cZSlr1qcaiw9o1_1280.jpg 00:06:47 <drac_boy> normally you expect a highspeed express to be of the tender type but this was a tank instead .. at least the short distance they worked was still more than good enough for them tho 00:07:32 <drac_boy> and heres one at speed http://loco.skyrocket.de/img/drg_61_001.jpg (yep..just two coaches in that one) 00:07:44 <Wolf01> that is just a steam engine with a chassis, not so much different from a mallard one 00:08:24 <drac_boy> weirdly enough china did have something a bit similar but I have no clue where it is tho :) 00:10:32 <drac_boy> wolf01 and if you want streamlining that resembles a wedgie then this will do :) http://loco.skyrocket.de/img/jnr_c53_43_1.jpg 00:11:02 <drac_boy> probably has to be two separate hatches for sure as I don't think the actual one can be slanted like the photo seem to suggest 00:11:43 <drac_boy> funny enough I think one of the jnr electric locomotive also had a similar wedgie shape (and it soon wasn't too popular as it couldn't run bidirectional) 00:13:35 <Wolf01> found it ;) 00:13:42 <Wolf01> http://api.ning.com/files/8t-VIPFUK11-u9iNu86TJ9hhX3H3MuLe9RcNdJspnw-q1rDpFLBosH83TZwOJh-nAYbCk-PDMHiyEXod4FscPg__/536.jpg 00:15:37 <drac_boy> ah almost forgot that one too...yeah that one was a bit interesting..at least it more or less worked ok for long distance trains 00:16:26 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference] 00:16:52 <drac_boy> hows this for something that almost look like it got designed by your 50's fashion american? https://doyouknowjapan.com/image/shinkansen/shinkansen27.jpg 00:17:41 <drac_boy> the headlights do have a resemblence to the 50's cars anyway 00:18:01 <Wolf01> yeah, it looks like one from fallout games 00:18:10 <drac_boy> heres an example if you're wondering https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/66/6e/f1666e1b87a01c6761cbdac97d387d40.jpg 00:18:55 <drac_boy> I do like the Bullet Series 0 trains tho mind you :) (and did you know that the nose was hammered out by hand all the way?) 00:19:15 <Wolf01> :o 00:20:17 <drac_boy> wolf01 as I recall it was due to because it was a small number of trainsets it wasn't cost-worthy doing the tool and die .. so they rather took a flat sheetmetal and keep hammering it in steps till it comes to almost a perfect shape then probably sand it a bit and paint it .. done 00:21:05 <drac_boy> oh and another thing not everyone probably knew too..the nose actually did open up to an emergency swing-out coupler (and the swing was rope-rigged I think..or was it cable? I forgot either way) 00:23:48 <drac_boy> I don't think the coupler was ever really used much at all due to the high reliability and everything...as I've never seen any photos of it (only the original movie clip of it being tested with a special group of people watching) 00:28:08 <drac_boy> wolf01 anyway you want another one? :) 00:28:21 <Wolf01> shot it 00:29:18 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:29:27 <drac_boy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Andreev.jpg thats a 4-14-4 and nope not making that up .. probably splitted just about anything that resemble a curve! 00:30:09 <Wolf01> i know it, it was too large to take curves 00:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and can you dig something up that wasn't already dragged through this channel a dozen times in the last 10 years? 00:33:21 <Wolf01> maybe the hyperloop ;) 00:33:35 <drac_boy> wolf01 at least russia was not always crazy tho 00:35:03 <drac_boy> their "children railway" (as english translation puts it apparently) still have some interesting small steam locomotives 00:35:23 <drac_boy> almost a bit polish-like in the big headlights compared to the boiler size :) 00:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> those railways were usual diesel-driven around here... 00:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess they reused factory engines 00:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes they had downscaled chassis from "real" engines 00:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how the russians called this, but around here, the original term was "pioneer railways", where "pioneer" was a youth organization, sort of comparable to boy scouts, but more all-encompassing 00:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> they changed it to "children railway" after socialism broke down... 00:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> to make it sound less indoctrinating 00:40:46 <drac_boy> yeah. for at least one of the russia one I did read about...only the dispatching and some driver tasks were left to the adults but the youths otherwise could take part of anything else including stationmasters 00:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, basically it's a teaching operation 00:42:09 <drac_boy> oh and I forgot where but there was one particular location in russia where three separate gauges crossed in the same place .. broad gauge (standard network), standard gauge (tram line), and narrow gauge (children railway) 00:42:54 <drac_boy> normally you only see 2 gauges together 00:45:09 <drac_boy> wolf01 have you see this yet? http://railfanphotographycolorado.com/odd%20(1).jpg 00:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look very special to me 00:45:58 <drac_boy> old steam locomotive tender + some jury-rigged axle with chain drive + finding a truck engine to throw onto middle of chassis .. then a lot of sheetmetal welding to make up the odd body 00:46:14 <drac_boy> homemade diesel locomotive .. probably would had never been approved these years, but back then who cared 00:46:42 <Wolf01> eheh 00:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's this thing https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Schienenbus01.jpg 00:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> which is basically a truck engine slapped on a chassis 00:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and because the engine had only one gear and couldn't go backwards, they had to slap an equivalent on the other end 00:48:22 <drac_boy> eddi..ah..the pigs .. I always liked them .. two engines at first seem ineffective but it actually made things easier being able to drive in both directions at whim :) 00:49:11 <drac_boy> they did have some narrow gauge versions but at least one railroad soon stopped running them as they were afraid about its stability 00:49:29 <drac_boy> (its still preserved tho which is the only reason I knew about that) 00:49:59 <Wolf01> reminds me about that https://youtu.be/dIQFXDFCCxk?t=3m50s 00:50:10 <drac_boy> there used to be a single-axle trailer built for them but of course the problem was you had to drag the trailer around to other side etc so I guess soon everyone didn't even like them 00:50:21 <FLHerne> The County Donegal railway had an entire fleet of those weird bus-railcar things in gradually-improving variants 00:50:48 <drac_boy> the outboards used to store bikes+cargos was an interesting post-production retrofit and it actually looks better that way for some reason to me :) 00:52:59 <Wolf01> there's also the "centennial" featured in that video 00:53:02 <FLHerne> Tiny one (http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/cwd/3325.jpg) up to almost-proper-DMU standard http://www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/111298.jpg 00:54:22 <drac_boy> flherne if you want an articulated 2-piece try this http://www.pichirichirailway.org.au/images/historical/SLSA/SMC1/b45335.jpg 00:54:43 <drac_boy> that was I think maybe technically a 0-4+4 .. no idea how you really classify these tbh 00:55:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the DB operated busses that could run on rails: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SchiStraBus 00:55:56 <FLHerne> British ones even weirder https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Taff_Vale_railmotor_(Rankin_Kennedy,_Modern_Engines,_Vol_V).jpg 00:56:00 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x4d011fcb.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 00:56:25 <FLHerne> Not articulated, but the boiler's sideways :P 00:56:38 <drac_boy> ehh that taff vale one does look a little too weird indeed 00:57:20 <Wolf01> i think i'll go to bed too, maybe i'll read the logs ;) 00:57:21 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 00:57:24 <Wolf01> 'night 00:57:31 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 00:57:32 <drac_boy> bye wolf01 00:57:36 <drac_boy> meh :P 00:58:51 <FLHerne> Also http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2011/post-189-0-30120600-1301475042_thumb.jpg and http://d240vprofozpi.cloudfront.net/locos/Railcar/gnr_motor2.png 00:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the saxon railways had a similar thing, i think they later operated in switzerland: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Limousin2010RVT01.jpg 00:59:11 <FLHerne> Of course, we actually have a working fully-integrated one, thanks to the Great Western Society :-) 00:59:56 <FLHerne> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYKUnEZqsI0 01:01:44 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: That's odd, are the traction motors at the opposite end to the engine? 01:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so 01:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have not really an idea 01:03:47 <FLHerne> Well, the far end bogie has a driveshaft and coupling rods 01:04:05 <FLHerne> Near end looks like a plain bogie 01:05:08 <FLHerne> Might help with weight distribution? 01:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently this is the engine under the chassis http://www.derbysulzers.com/saxonybogieside.jpg 01:08:03 <FLHerne> http://www.derbysulzers.com/prussia.html 01:08:19 <FLHerne> "The three axle bogie carried the weight of the engine and generator whilst the smaller two axle bogie carried the weight of the two traction motors" 01:08:35 <FLHerne> Looks like I was right, and that is a really odd arrangement 01:08:56 <FLHerne> So the engine sits directly on the unpowered bogie, and then drives the other end 01:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i guess that somewhat makes sense for diesel-electric 01:14:26 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: I'll be Bach] 01:14:43 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 01:16:31 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has quit [] 01:17:02 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 01:23:34 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 01:23:56 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 01:28:06 <FLHerne> Having the weight over the driving axles would seem useful though 01:28:20 <FLHerne> You have an awful lot of big hills over there 01:28:45 <drac_boy> well i imagine it depends on actual weight spread 01:29:38 <drac_boy> like there was this emu for a mountainous route in germany .. and it only had 1 axle per truck powered (instead of usual 2) due to limiting mechanical factors .. but even with that it still was a solid one .. even hauling several loaded 2-axle coaches without assistance 01:31:10 <drac_boy> mm and a bit related but Santa Fe usually prefer B-B diesels for their not-so-flat routes but they somehow still liked their small group of alco's which were A1A-A1A's .. even got to haul the Chief trains too 01:32:04 <sim-al2> East half of the Santa Fe is pretty flat 01:32:17 <sim-al2> Western part, not as much 01:34:03 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh well I don't know a lot about SF on the ground but I do know some about their locomotives nevertheless .. what can I say :) 01:34:53 <drac_boy> of course there is always these "SFSP" locomotives that were painted a bit too fast before ICC rejected the merger propsal :) 01:35:03 <sim-al2> I'm not really an expert there either, but they had one of the best routes across the country 01:35:11 <drac_boy> at least the short bout of red+yellow color instead was an interesting photo take 01:35:31 <drac_boy> http://atsf.railfan.net/sfkodcrm/kjpgs/atsf1564.jpg heres one 01:35:47 <sim-al2> They avoided the mountain districts that the Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Milwaukee, etc had 01:36:45 <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. about 'avoid' .. well I have two magazines that talked a lot about them but Western Pacific was interesting as it broke the monopoly that Southern Pacific would otherwise have had for example 01:37:22 <drac_boy> that railroad was also the one that had that interesting wye that was half placed on trestles too I believe 01:37:30 <sim-al2> I'm thinking of D&RGW for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRQufjbGAf0 01:38:25 <drac_boy> yep here http://www.trainweb.org/chris/photos/WP21.jpg .. you almost can't see the third leg but its almost visible in the very upperleft (it goes into a deep cut yep) 01:39:12 <sim-al2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keddie_Wye 01:39:26 <drac_boy> also WP had some interesting land where it would be green in early spring (due to the additional rain) but was always a semi-parched yellow all year long otherwise 01:39:39 <drac_boy> thats what you get for the particular climate they were located in in middle of the mountains tho 01:41:50 <drac_boy> ah sim-a12 I almost forgot one more thing about SP .. Don Pass .. was sometimes a bit weird .. you could have the train roll past lush green grass into a tunnel .. then when it comes out of the other end of tunnel theres nothing but snow everywhere! 01:42:05 <drac_boy> bit of extreme climate buffer if you ask me :) 01:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, what's a "wye"? 01:42:39 <sim-al2> Yeah, a big enough mountain will do that 01:43:06 <sim-al2> THere, it's actually a 3 way junction between the main route and a connection to another railroad 01:43:11 <drac_boy> eddi .. ah not sure if its an american term or not .. but its that one where you have a triangular shaped track (sometimes as a 3-way junction .. other time to turn around things without using a turntable) 01:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so, why don't they call it a triangle? 01:44:34 <sim-al2> This ain't Britain 01:44:34 <drac_boy> you tell me, also 'wye' can refer to a switch that has both legs curved away from each other (rather than one straight and one curved routes) ... confusing term I guess 01:45:01 <drac_boy> http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/280.gif thats what they call a wye turnout usa-wise 01:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that comes from the letter Y 01:45:39 <drac_boy> sim-a12 if we were in britian we would want a driver not an engineer :P (exactly same thing tho when you talk about it anyway) 01:46:16 <drac_boy> or how about a lorry instead of a truck .. but heh anyway I wouldn't go too far into this thing about different english's .. I have to afk soon anyhow :-s 01:46:43 <sim-al2> Just joking about the terminology :D 01:47:11 <sim-al2> Why wye, that's a great question 01:47:45 <drac_boy> sim-a12 if you're still around somewhere tomorrow we should talk more (here or pm I dunno) ok? :) 01:47:49 <drac_boy> I need to go for now sorry :-/ 01:47:59 <sim-al2> ok bye 01:48:37 * drac_boy hands sim-a12 a canadian-sized firebox shovel before running off :P 01:48:40 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 01:49:20 <sim-al2> Hmm, Candian-sized... gonna need a bigger house 01:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you people have strange expressions... "canadian-sized" 01:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> :p 02:16:56 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 02:27:12 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:04:17 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:04:27 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:04:48 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 03:04:51 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 03:10:54 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: I'll be Bach] 03:17:21 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:35:06 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5C8C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 05:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66DD5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:09:56 *** roidal [~roland@194-152-172-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 07:19:17 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 07:19:35 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 07:19:38 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:40:29 *** Progman [~progman@p57A181ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:43:04 *** efess [~Efess@c-24-61-64-170.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:03:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 08:03:41 <andythenorth> o/ 08:11:51 <andythenorth> quak 08:11:56 <andythenorth> @seen frosch123 08:11:56 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 8 hours, 28 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <frosch123> but hey, all axles are powered :) 08:14:31 * andythenorth lost in graphviz options :) 08:17:42 <greeter> hmm this is weird. i thought i set this game to a normal amount of industries, but the map is just polluted with them 08:23:25 <Alberth> oh dear :( 08:23:48 <Alberth> yeah, "normal" is closer to "overwhelming" :) 08:24:52 <greeter> ok, so i went back and set it to low, seems a little more sane 08:24:53 <Alberth> but it depends a lot on eg the number of industries 08:25:42 <Alberth> if you have many different industries, you need a higher density to ensure they all get created 08:26:02 <greeter> ah i see 08:26:03 <Alberth> andythenorth: what option is the problem? 08:26:18 <andythenorth> I am learning what they all are :) 08:26:25 <andythenorth> test, make, view :) 08:26:50 <Alberth> similar considerations are for map size, small map needs more dense industries 08:28:00 <greeter> this one is pretty large 08:29:47 <Alberth> you typically want less dense industries at a larger map indeed 08:30:16 <Alberth> hmm, graphviz site is down, no simple way to get a gallery of examples 08:30:54 <greeter> i think i struck a good balance. low number of towns/industires on a 2048 by 2048 map 08:32:28 <Alberth> why do you use such a big map? I always find 512x512 is sufficient 08:33:14 <Flygon> Heheheh 08:33:18 <Flygon> Eddi has 6,666 posts 08:33:24 <Flygon> HAIL EDDI|ZUHAUSE 08:33:28 <Flygon> OUR EVIL OVERLORD 08:33:50 * Flygon gives Eddi|zuHause an EVIL Watermelon as a gift of appreciation 08:33:52 <greeter> it's roughly the size of the height map i created. though i have to admit, i may have made that too big 08:35:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: would a dot user guide be of any help? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/dotguide.pdf 08:35:44 <andythenorth> letâs see :) 08:36:32 <Alberth> I thought the magic number was 666? 08:36:44 <Flygon> Alberth: It is, but 08:36:52 <Flygon> Any sequence if 6's large enough justifies the worship 08:37:22 * andythenorth waits for bundles to build FIRS 08:38:38 <Alberth> you pick weird lords to worship :) 08:38:46 <andythenorth> previous rev looks like this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html 08:39:00 <andythenorth> we can compare-contrast when bundles updates :P 08:42:34 <Flygon> Alberth: And yet it's given me, just now, a stupid insane new station layout 08:42:46 <Flygon> Not enough room for RoRo, but need the benefits 08:42:53 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 08:43:53 <Alberth> picture! 08:44:48 <andythenorth> slow bundles is slow :( 08:45:24 <Alberth> it looks way more readable than the versions you had yesterday 08:45:57 <Alberth> bundles is also building the grf :p 08:47:37 <Alberth> wicked, I get tooltips on the cargo connections :) 08:47:51 <andythenorth> ach, my browser had cached it 08:48:05 <andythenorth> I switched layout from top->bottom to left->right 08:48:22 <andythenorth> looks more natural to my brain, and makes better use of space, given the aspect ratio of the industry nodes 08:48:47 <Alberth> it does make better use of the space indeed 08:49:30 <Alberth> perhaps also create right -> left version for our eastern friends? 08:49:55 <andythenorth> ha 08:50:04 <andythenorth> ideally all primary industries would have same node rank 08:50:08 <andythenorth> so they are all vertically aligned 08:50:56 <andythenorth> vertically / horizontally / s 08:51:03 <Alberth> full firs size can be increased? 08:51:47 <andythenorth> itâs using the space weirdly isnât it 08:51:58 <andythenorth> graphviz can control canvas size, but I havenât made that work yet 08:52:36 <Alberth> you already have colours for the primary industries, why do you want them aligned? 08:52:49 <andythenorth> neater :) 08:52:55 <Alberth> graphviz just scales the picture to make it fit 08:52:56 <andythenorth> better gestalt 08:53:39 <Alberth> the more you fine tune, you more it will break when you change things 08:54:07 <andythenorth> yeah 08:54:11 <Alberth> imho the whole point of graphviz is that you don't do manual alyout 08:54:13 <andythenorth> or when adding new economies 08:55:20 <Alberth> if you do manual layout, quality will indeed increase, significantly even, in general 08:55:31 <Alberth> but it's manual 08:55:36 <andythenorth> nah 08:55:38 <andythenorth> tmwftlb 08:55:41 <andythenorth> distractions: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2014/03/design-principles-visual-perception-and-the-principles-of-gestalt/ 08:56:36 <andythenorth> Iâm interested in this graphviz stuff because we have a work problem, showing the available paths through multiple connected pages 08:56:55 <andythenorth> which are customer-editable and not predictable in advance, and highly variable 08:57:16 <Alberth> how big is that, in terms of nodes 08:57:22 <andythenorth> controlling that manually wonât be a thing :) 08:57:42 <andythenorth> usually 5-20, but pathologically, up to about 300 08:58:25 <Alberth> 2d visualization techniques scale to about 30-40 nodes, unless you have huuuuuge paper sizes 08:59:04 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@ppp118-209-58-247.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd 08:59:06 <Alberth> you may want to merge some things into a single node if bigger 08:59:16 <Alberth> ie make a sub-graph 08:59:23 <andythenorth> I think it would have to rely on vertical layout and browser scroll 09:00:27 <andythenorth> it shows routing through surveys that contain skip logic (next page shown depends on answer to a routing question in current page) 09:00:48 <andythenorth> usually itâs simple. But itâs the non-simple cases that customers need visualised, to verify and debug them :P 09:00:53 <Alberth> oh right, that's quite simple usually 09:01:27 <Alberth> if it doesn't make sense on the browser screen it's too complicated :p 09:01:41 <andythenorth> yup 09:02:19 <andythenorth> graphviz looks like the most appropriate tool, itâs a simple directed graph 09:02:34 <Alberth> dot would be good for that, it assumes a tree of nodes 09:03:09 <Alberth> other common forms are circular layout of nodes 09:03:25 <Alberth> although I haven't really seen those yet 09:03:33 <andythenorth> so graphviz is a wrapper, and there are multiple layout agorithms it can use, like dot and neato? 09:03:39 <Alberth> it's probably depending on the kind of applications 09:03:43 * andythenorth is trying to understand the structure 09:04:18 <Alberth> graphviz is a umbrella of tools with a common language, the graphviz language 09:04:35 <Alberth> there are several layout tools like dot and neato that all speak that language 09:04:53 <Alberth> so you can generate a graph, and then use different algorithms for layout 09:05:35 <Alberth> dot is the most famous tool, so many people think dot is the only thing, and use "dot language" to refer to the language 09:05:52 *** Flygon [~Flygon@ppp118-209-58-247.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:06:31 <Alberth> you can also have a look at yEd, it's a commercial tool written in Java 09:07:22 * andythenorth looks 09:07:28 <Alberth> it tends to produce better pictures for complicated graphs 09:07:51 <Alberth> and it has extensions for 'folding' sub-graphs into a node 09:09:08 <andythenorth> itâs rather shinier than graphviz 09:09:23 <Alberth> yep, commercial vs academic :p 09:09:32 <Alberth> also, graphviz is much older 09:13:58 * andythenorth wonders how to test neato instead of dot 09:16:59 <Alberth> for which graph? 09:17:22 <Alberth> great link about gestallt btw :) 09:17:43 <andythenorth> for the cargoflow, but more so I understand the difference 09:17:48 <andythenorth> the graphviz site is down, so eh 09:19:39 <Rubidium> Alberth: I'm not sure whether you are right with respect to graphviz being the language under which dot was developed 09:20:00 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs1.svg first attempt 09:20:45 <andythenorth> ha 09:20:49 <andythenorth> needs overlap prevention :) 09:20:50 <Alberth> ah could be they started with dot, but currently everything is under graphviz 09:23:25 <Alberth> andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/neatoguide.pdf 09:24:59 <Rubidium> dot user guide: 1991 (or earlier), neato's user guide: 1992 09:25:13 <andythenorth> ah so I call neato, not dot 09:26:12 <Rubidium> the man page of dot/neato/<many other graphviz tools> mention: A more complete description of the language can be found at http://www.graphviz.org/content/dot-language. 09:27:03 <Alberth> unfortunately, graphviz.org is down 09:27:26 <Alberth> it doesn't improve significantly for me 09:27:37 *** Progman [~progman@p57A181ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:03 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:30:57 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs3.svg twopi version, which does radial layout 09:30:59 <andythenorth> looks like neato favours clusters, dot favours trees http://rich-iannone.github.io/DiagrammeR/img/Graphviz_Engines.png 09:31:18 <Alberth> dot assumes trees even 09:31:31 <andythenorth> if there was only one edge between each primary and secondary, neato would be prettier 09:31:39 <andythenorth> but thatâs not the case 09:32:41 <Alberth> for different graph shapes, you have dedicated tools to do layout 09:33:31 <Alberth> and depending on how well the actual graph matches the assumptions you get better or worse results :) 09:36:17 *** efess [~Efess@c-24-61-64-170.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 09:37:05 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 09:38:42 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs_sfdp.svg sfdp somewhat works 09:39:42 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/libguide.pdf the programming guide, chapter 3 lists the algorithms 09:44:00 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:46:19 <andythenorth> dot it is then 09:59:15 * andythenorth considers fetching the cargoicons from the spritesheet 10:00:12 <Alberth> and add images for the industries, and you get nice pictures like ECS has :) 10:08:14 * andythenorth wants to constrain edge out-in points to same origin/destination 10:08:20 * andythenorth in docs 10:09:30 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:14:27 <fjb> Moin. 10:16:08 <andythenorth> seems to be samehead and sametail, but not sure how to use those 10:16:19 <andythenorth> http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#a:samehead 10:22:47 <andythenorth> ach 10:22:49 <andythenorth> nvm :P 10:31:24 <Alberth> andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ppvkg5kox 10:34:32 <andythenorth> ah 10:34:34 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:34:38 <andythenorth> I wondered about that 10:34:57 <andythenorth> it probably takes more detailed calculation than is currently provided 10:35:02 <andythenorth> and it has to hard limit to 5 10:37:14 <Alberth> you would have to decide which arraows come from roughly the same side 10:39:10 * lastmikoi wonders when andythenorth sleeps 11:05:03 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 11:05:26 <Wolf01> o/ 11:08:07 <Alberth> moin 11:13:14 *** M-E [~M@ip4da0d6bd.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 11:15:01 <TrueBrain> lastmikoi: the same time as cats sleep 11:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> cats literally sleep all the time :p 11:16:20 <TrueBrain> except when they don't ;) 11:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (except when they demand food) 11:17:20 <Wolf01> eddi, just one question... do you sleep? 11:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> currently? no :p 11:17:55 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, there was a ~9 hour period between writing in this channel. plenty of time to fit some sleep in... 11:19:18 <Wolf01> from the logs i noticed you left for 15 seconds 11:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so, people only sleep when they are not logged in? 11:22:05 <Wolf01> usually, but i know most of us have bouncers 11:23:10 <Wolf01> mmmh i need to find a way to fix the minecraft installation on my slate... every time i run it, it starts in demo mode :| 11:23:17 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:23:36 * andythenorth sleeps between 22.30 and 05.18 usually 11:23:37 <andythenorth> or so 11:24:08 <Wolf01> you always miss the most important conversations 11:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, they always happen like 23:00-2:00 ;) 11:25:21 <Alberth> really important conversations pick a better time :p 11:37:24 <peter1138> Bumholes 11:37:31 <peter1138> My tablet keeps rebooting :( 11:43:54 <Wolf01> did you try to turn off then on again? oh wait... it is doing that by itself :| 11:46:49 *** Pensacola [~quassel@88.159.51.52] has joined #openttd 11:57:56 <andythenorth> hmm 11:58:11 <andythenorth> station rating affects pax moved to station from houses? 11:58:16 <andythenorth> or is that just industries? 11:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 11:58:48 <andythenorth> can we fuck with rating, modulated by number of reachable destinations in current pax graph for that station node? 11:59:01 <andythenorth> more destinations -> higher rating 11:59:12 <andythenorth> itâs an ugly hack, just occurred to me is all 11:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is usually that counting all potential destination is non-trivial 11:59:32 <andythenorth> the station knows that, no? 11:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> also, low rating has bad side effects 11:59:48 <andythenorth> the graph is known for each station, iirc from reading code 12:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the problem is finding the destinations which are not yet in the graph 12:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you don't want to punish the start of the game too much 12:01:42 <andythenorth> ranges? 12:01:50 <andythenorth> 1 destination = + 10% 12:01:56 <andythenorth> 2-5 = +10% 12:02:02 <andythenorth> > 5 = + 10% 12:02:09 <andythenorth> (max 30%) 12:02:15 <andythenorth> dunno, just ideas 12:02:28 <andythenorth> one, few, many 12:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's all terrible in its own way. 12:03:03 <andythenorth> same could apply to freight :P 12:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> again, only if you find an efficient way to go over the whole map repeatedly and count which destination is connected and which one is not 12:08:11 <andythenorth> that assumes youâre running a sum of % connected or such 12:08:52 <andythenorth> I am proposing only a âmore connectionsâ bonus 12:08:56 <andythenorth> what do I miss? 12:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it doesn't make a lot of sense to demand 5 destinations, when there are only 2 destinations on the map 12:09:13 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f7435dd.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 12:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it doesn't make a lot of sense to demand 5 connections, when there are 3000 on the map 12:09:45 <andythenorth> ach just count the number of towns 12:09:49 <andythenorth> thatâs known 12:10:51 <andythenorth> quak also 12:22:07 <frosch123> i have really developed a hatred about gnome-keyring this week 12:22:46 <Eearslya> frosch123: Random FYI, you might wanna remove sell-button-depressing from the Todo list; that's where I got it from 12:23:22 <frosch123> oh, didn't know it was from that list 12:23:31 <frosch123> i thought, why had noone ever thought about that :) 12:23:46 <Eearslya> I'm not that creative, unfortunately! 12:24:41 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:24:44 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 12:25:06 <Eearslya> Which is why now..I have no idea what to do next. 12:26:31 <andythenorth> code RoadTypes :) 12:26:34 <andythenorth> or NewDocks 12:27:11 <Eearslya> I don't even know what those are and they both sound scary 12:27:49 <andythenorth> ha 12:29:13 *** gelignite [~gelignite@x5ce33ed7.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 12:29:21 <Eearslya> I get the feeling like that has been suggested before, and there's a reason nobody's come up to the task yet.. XD 12:29:49 <andythenorth> roadtypes is too hard, newdocks nobody finds it interesting :) 12:31:19 <Eearslya> I get the feeling RoadTypes is..self-explanatory, but what's NewDocks? 12:31:39 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:00 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 12:32:06 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 12:32:12 <Zuu> Hello 12:32:14 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:32:17 <Eearslya> meow 12:32:30 <Zuu> Cheers for your commited patch :-) 12:33:05 <andythenorth> newdocks allows more flexibility in the location of docks 12:33:06 <Zuu> For what next to do, find yourself an itch to solve. 12:33:10 <andythenorth> not just on coast tiles 12:33:23 <andythenorth> there are many complications and features that could be thought of 12:34:01 <andythenorth> but basically, if they could be built on a 1x2 or 2x1 pair of (water, land) then most cases would be met 12:34:03 <Zuu> And remember, the impossible only takes longer to do. :-) 12:34:19 <Eearslya> See, that's the thing, Zuu..I'm not sure I've really played long enough to develop itches like that. 12:34:31 <andythenorth> the main case is docks for rivers and canals, where raising land to make sloped tiles for the dock is ugly 12:35:00 <andythenorth> flat docks could also be built at sea, using the canals-on-sea hack and a bulldozed tile :P 12:35:32 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: There are many ways to weigh rating by number of reachable destinations. The problem is defining what you want to achieve with it. I've spent way too much time with that question in the past ... 12:35:55 <andythenorth> it was prompted by a forum thread tbh 12:36:11 <andythenorth> I thought maybe encouraging > 1 connection might be fun for some reason 12:37:00 <andythenorth> and it would _maybe_ be an answer to the âmore routes = less cargo per vehicleâ supposed problem 12:37:16 <Zuu> Eearslya: You could browse OpenTTD Problems forum or feature requests in the bug tracker if you like to find others itches. 12:38:40 <fonsinchen> The problem with the forum threads is that as soon as you propose something you instantly attract the people who "sort of" like your specific variant and start amending it with all kinds of complicated specials until it gets impossible to implement. 12:38:59 <fonsinchen> In particular, don't talk to Eddi|zuHause ;) 12:39:03 <andythenorth> ha ha 12:39:43 <fonsinchen> The only way to solve it is come up with a single clear vision of what it should be and not let anybody influence you. 12:40:26 <andythenorth> itâs plausible that station rating would be moderated by number of destinations served, but I donât know if it has gameplay benefit 12:41:14 <andythenorth> itâs also a step closer to enforcing a specific play style, which might be bad 12:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think some of the cargod[ei]st patches had that, and it was deemed bad for gameplay 12:42:04 * Zuu liked that feature although it may had some flaw 12:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with station ratings, it has all sorts of side effects. disappearing cargo, closing industries, ... 12:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> especially combined with ECS, which has really hard restrictions of ratings 12:43:06 <andythenorth> add a special flag on cargos, âprefers many destinationsâ :P 12:43:08 <andythenorth> or not 12:43:24 * fonsinchen hears the word "special" 12:43:31 <andythenorth> when there are complexity problems, add another var 12:43:32 <andythenorth> or two 12:43:36 <andythenorth> what could go wrong? 12:44:03 <fonsinchen> Well, one thing is for sure: Whatever mechanism, you need to be able to turn it off. 12:44:41 <andythenorth> it also does nothing for âlots of pax waiting at stationsâ which is one of the 2 remaining niggles I have with cdist :) 12:44:49 <andythenorth> it makes it worse, if anything 12:46:07 <fonsinchen> Yes, the problem as it is now only appears once you have lots of destinations 12:46:37 <fonsinchen> If you increase station rating with number of destinations the increase in number of passengers is even more dramatic than it is now. 12:48:39 * andythenorth has been playing Mini Metro http://dinopoloclub.com/minimetro/ 12:48:54 <andythenorth> which gives passengers destinations based on shapes 12:48:56 <fonsinchen> As a solution to the "too many pax" problem you could rather try to punish travelling time some more. 12:49:27 <andythenorth> I think the solution is bigger vehicles :D 12:49:35 <andythenorth> which I can help with :P 12:49:47 <Eearslya> Zuu: My problem with forum suggestions is basically exactly what the 'Todo list' page says; a lot of user-suggestions are involved and complicated code-wise 12:49:57 <Eearslya> That button thing was simple enough, at least! 12:50:19 * andythenorth wonders if bigger vehicles actually helps 12:50:35 <andythenorth> for congested transfer stations, it may at points lead to even higher âwaitingâ counts 12:50:56 <andythenorth> due to large vehicles unloading 12:51:02 <frosch123> Eearslya: if you look for something easy, try https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6386 , if it interests you 12:51:39 <frosch123> in ottd context i classify all gui things as easy, compared to the insanely interlinked game mechanics :) 12:53:05 <Eearslya> Adding a scroll bar to local authority? Seems simple enough, yes 12:54:37 <frosch123> scrollbar would be harder :p i thought just make the window scale correctly 12:55:21 <frosch123> otoh, the space the ratings take compared to the town actions under it... :p 12:55:28 <frosch123> maybe a scrollbar is not that bad 12:55:50 <frosch123> though it may raise the question for sorting 12:56:18 <Eearslya> What's it organized by now? ID? 12:56:29 <frosch123> likely 12:56:49 <frosch123> which is not that bad, because likely all places use the sorting 12:57:04 <frosch123> but if you own company is at the bottom, it may be annoying to scroll all the time 12:57:53 <frosch123> maybe sorting is too much, maybe only put the local company to the top 12:57:59 <frosch123> your turn to get creative :p 12:58:09 <Eearslya> So, the two options I see are to shrink the font to match the actions area, or scrollbar. 12:58:24 <frosch123> there is only one front size 12:58:36 <frosch123> you can either make the panel autosize to always be big enough 12:58:39 <frosch123> or add a scrollbar 12:58:46 <Eearslya> Really? I can swear the text below looks smaller. Huh. 12:59:13 <frosch123> technically there are 4 font sizes in ottd, but there is one main font 12:59:44 <Eearslya> Really glad I don't play in 800x600 myself, gotta say 13:00:14 <Eearslya> Even at 1080 I end up with a somewhat cluttered UI 13:01:43 <Alberth> 800x600 was pre-openttd era :) 13:02:46 <frosch123> if you make the font big enough, you can turn it into 80x25 again :) 13:03:30 <Eearslya> Sounds like a plan 13:06:21 <andythenorth> adjust the station UI so it fits on my screen with 2x UI Zoom? o_O 13:06:24 <andythenorth> or make it shadable 13:07:00 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/fertilizer_farm1.png andythenorth bit close to each other? 13:07:49 <andythenorth> yes 13:07:53 <andythenorth> FIRS 2? 13:08:11 <Alberth> beta2 13:08:40 <Alberth> FIRS economy 13:08:50 <andythenorth> yeah, no guards 13:09:16 <andythenorth> they are set manually at the moment, it should be done automatically, per economy on basis of supplied cargos :P 13:11:32 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:59 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 13:12:55 <Alberth> or a check that some guard exists 13:20:43 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 13:21:02 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 13:35:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: L-R layout, more pleasing :) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html 13:35:21 *** frosch [~frosch@x4d0083dd.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 13:40:22 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f7435dd.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:42:23 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 13:45:56 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 13:45:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 13:46:54 <Eearslya> What are the .sq files? 13:47:06 <andythenorth> squirrel? 13:48:43 <Eearslya> What's it for? 13:52:27 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:54:36 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 13:54:38 <drac_boy> hi 13:54:46 <drac_boy> some of a long night for me heh :-> 13:56:02 <andythenorth> meh, do we need to support IE 8 for FIRS docs? 13:56:04 <andythenorth> :| 13:57:11 <andythenorth> also IE 9 13:58:40 <drac_boy> docs? 13:59:13 <Wolf01> they want to do them cool, and cool means browser compatibility 13:59:49 <drac_boy> aren't docs supposed to just be text so browsers doesn't really apply? 14:00:32 <Wolf01> firs is too complex to be just text 14:01:29 <drac_boy> wolf01 I doubt that 14:02:09 <andythenorth> eh 14:02:19 <andythenorth> where are the docs that say docs are supposed to be text? 14:02:23 <andythenorth> have you got a link? 14:02:26 <andythenorth> is there a spec? 14:05:49 *** Pensacola [~quassel@88.159.51.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:49 <andythenorth> âdiamondsâ or âprecious metalsâ? 14:12:55 <andythenorth> this is somewhat Africa, ish 14:13:03 <andythenorth> so it could also be gold, platinum, rare earths 14:13:15 <Wolf01> rare earths 14:13:44 <Wolf01> so you can put in a "magnets industry" too 14:13:58 <andythenorth> ha ha 14:14:03 <Wolf01> and a full "electronic" chain 14:14:30 <Wolf01> which ends up to delivering smartphones to population 14:14:51 <Eearslya> I like it 14:14:59 <drac_boy> wolf01 the only silly question is..how many phones are made of gold? :) 14:15:05 <drac_boy> otherwise yeah I like the idea too perhaps 14:15:21 <Eearslya> Gold is extremely common in electronic circuitry 14:15:31 <Wolf01> almost all have some gold plated parts to get rid of oxidation 14:15:33 <drac_boy> earslya..but 1 bar of gold per phone? I dunno 14:16:12 <drac_boy> admittly I know htc used to make a diamond studded phone case once (I dunno if it was all real tho but the price was high) 14:16:32 <Eearslya> frosch: you weren't kidding, scrollbars are a bit of a headache 14:17:10 <drac_boy> either way I guess for something like ttdxp .. 'precious metals' might be better to avoid confusion with the mine>bank diamond cargo in vanilla industries 14:17:59 <Eearslya> There's a diamond mine in vanilla? 14:19:08 <Alberth> sub-tropic climate 14:19:43 <Eearslya> Ah; never played anything but temperate, that'd explain it 14:19:56 <drac_boy> why only temperate? just curious :) 14:20:11 <Eearslya> Becuase it's default? XD 14:20:18 <drac_boy> nope theres four defaults 14:20:19 <drac_boy> :) 14:20:35 <Eearslya> Not really an actual reason that I use it, it's just what I'm used to I guess 14:20:41 <Alberth> default is all 4 climates :) 14:20:45 <drac_boy> yeah ok, was only asking anyway 14:21:02 <Alberth> different climates make quite different game play, you should try them all :) 14:21:36 <Eearslya> I really need to spend more than a few hours on a save file, too 14:21:47 <Alberth> Eearslya: :o you fixed the vehicle sell hover thingie, great! I just sufficiently annoyed to start doing it :p 14:21:59 <Alberth> +got 14:22:12 <Eearslya> XD Yeah, and now I'm trying to add a scrollbar to local authority ratings 14:22:29 <frosch> andythenorth: ivory? 14:22:38 <frosch> way more explotive than gold or diamonds 14:22:51 <drac_boy> eearslya what sort of trains do you usually run or it always varies? 14:22:57 <Alberth> much more controversal too 14:23:22 <andythenorth> ivory is not mined :P 14:23:43 <andythenorth> I just donât have the heart to make evil economies :D 14:23:55 <andythenorth> there are so many possibilities though 14:23:56 <frosch> frosch: add ivory, ebony and piano cargos :p 14:24:12 <andythenorth> :P 14:24:21 <Eearslya> drac_boy: Like I said, I've never spent a lot of time on a single save, so the trains I make are usually just simple end-to-end lines 14:24:52 <Eearslya> I've wanted to try the mainline strategy one of these days 14:25:29 <frosch> why did i say that to myself? 14:25:54 <andythenorth> losing your mind 14:25:55 <frosch> the missing numbers confuse me maybe 14:26:02 <andythenorth> I canât parse frosch 14:26:08 <andythenorth> it looks all wrong 14:26:38 *** frosch is now known as frosch123 14:26:50 <Alberth> phew, you're back :) 14:28:40 <drac_boy> eearslya well mine are often runs-on-occassion mixed trains with the solid coal/etc in the mix once in a while .. and you don't want know about my stations (its something ottd still wouldn't support as well last I checked) 14:28:44 <drac_boy> :) 14:31:42 <drac_boy> alberth what do you really think of the 4th climate anyway? 14:32:20 <Alberth> I think it is one of the better industry climates 14:32:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: fixed the edge tooltips, and the background graph tooltip :) 14:32:34 * andythenorth is feeling smug :P 14:32:47 <andythenorth> _this_ kind of stuff is why itâs all in python, not raw nml 14:32:49 <Alberth> too bad most people are stuck in temperate though :( 14:33:02 <andythenorth> Total Toyland Replacement 14:33:08 <andythenorth> is a thing I would do if I lived long enough 14:33:22 <Alberth> noooooo 14:33:42 <andythenorth> I would keep it fantasy 14:33:54 <Alberth> it needs much more love 14:34:11 <andythenorth> V453000 didnât go far enough with Yeti 14:34:17 <Wolf01> don't dare to replace toyland, it's my favourite climate 14:34:27 <andythenorth> I would make a world based on esoteric bits of pop culture 14:34:32 <andythenorth> he started well with the Yetis 14:34:38 <drac_boy> alberth heh well I don't use temperate much at all unless I'm interested in historic heavy freights (aka dbsetxl) 14:35:01 <Zuu> Eearslya: AIs and GSs are written in a language called Squirrel. 14:35:18 <Alberth> squirrel 2, to be precise :) 14:35:24 <andythenorth> so will I replace Diamonds in FIRS with Precious Metals, or is that just dumb? 14:35:38 <Zuu> GS = Game Script have an API to highlight any button in the user interface. So when you add/remove buttons, there is a script included in OpenTTD source that you run to re-generate the .sq files. 14:35:58 <drac_boy> andy...what will the banks receive then if its not diamonds? 14:35:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: the latter :) 14:35:59 <Zuu> Those files need re-generation also if you change the API for scripts as well. 14:36:18 <andythenorth> there are no banks, so thatâs moot 14:36:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: can I add gold, in the same economy? :P 14:36:39 <Alberth> drac_boy: like banks receive raw diamonds :p 14:36:45 <drac_boy> andy..then what are the gold vans supposed to carry? 14:36:54 <andythenorth> I have no idea 14:37:03 <drac_boy> (if you really want to I guess you could reclassify them for GOOD even although that may look weird) 14:37:04 <andythenorth> I feel like we might be talking at cross purposes somehow 14:37:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: sure, ogfx+industries allows diamond+gold+valueables 14:37:14 <andythenorth> ho, valuables 14:37:20 <andythenorth> âvaluables mine' 14:37:24 <Alberth> lol 14:37:42 <Alberth> valuables ours 14:37:56 <andythenorth> ach, Iâll just put a bauxite mine in I guess 14:37:59 <frosch123> valueable ore? 14:38:01 <andythenorth> I want one more extractive cargo 14:38:14 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#hopes_and_impediments 14:38:15 <drac_boy> bauxite could make steel anyway so that works 14:38:39 <andythenorth> there is no steel 14:39:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: why no ivory hunting yard? 14:40:15 <andythenorth> same reason as no arms dealer 14:40:21 <andythenorth> nor people smuggler 14:40:26 <andythenorth> nor refugee camp 14:40:29 <andythenorth> nor UN compound 14:40:36 <frosch123> ok :) 14:40:48 <andythenorth> although there is a lot of use of child labour in diamond mining, so eh 14:40:54 <andythenorth> ethics are selective apparently 14:40:57 <frosch123> i think diamonds is enough for an valueable ore 14:41:07 <frosch123> rahter add some useful material 14:41:12 <andythenorth> you had the âwasteâ idea? 14:41:22 <frosch123> waste was an import cargo 14:41:29 <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/firs/suggestions/MISTAH_KURTZ2.dot.svg 14:41:43 <frosch123> something which is imported, but has no real destination 14:41:59 <frosch123> instead you can dump it at mines or sea based industries 14:42:38 <frosch123> it's supposed to make you feel bad :) 14:44:24 <andythenorth> hmm 14:44:27 <andythenorth> potash 14:45:05 <frosch123> can we find some ore that would have a different mine appearance 14:45:18 <andythenorth> like nitrates? o_O 14:45:42 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#nitrate_mine 14:46:23 <frosch123> hmm, what's the difference between kurtz and basic tropic 14:46:29 <frosch123> i feel they are converging 14:46:46 <andythenorth> that is a problem yes 14:46:58 <andythenorth> primarily, kurtz is much larger, more like FIRS 14:47:08 <andythenorth> and about half the chains have to be player-constructed 14:47:24 <andythenorth> the aim is to switch from export to export + basic manufacturing 14:47:38 <andythenorth> it imposes a play style, but Other Economies Are Available :) 14:47:54 <Eearslya> Welp, turns out the fix for this issue is..a hundred times simpler than what I was going for. 14:47:57 <andythenorth> it needs Busy Bee or SV to drive it 14:48:13 <frosch123> hmm, lead is just black, is it? to much like coal 14:48:37 <Eearslya> Lead could be a dark purple 14:48:39 <andythenorth> phosphate is a possible choice, it can replace clay in cement, and it would fit a planned Canadian economy too 14:48:52 <andythenorth> phosphate mine could be a few diggers :P 14:50:34 <andythenorth> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Togo_phosphates_mining.jpg 14:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> how's that different from any other mine? 14:51:32 <Eearslya> frosch123: Turns out the authority ratings already had code to force itself to be large enough to fit..But because it was being rendered at the bottom of the screen, its resize was getting clamped. Turning that off is way easier than adding a scrollbar XD 14:52:37 <andythenorth> bright white? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_2e-QnBoorY/ViZ4994ypDI/AAAAAAAAB4s/IUztitOZNSg/s1600/Phosphate%2BMine%2BAerial.png 14:52:40 <andythenorth> kind of square? 14:53:29 <Eddi|zuHause> just recolour the sand pit and take the water out? 14:53:38 <andythenorth> plausible 14:53:44 <andythenorth> deep ocean phosphate mining? http://www.theinertia.com/surf/scorpion-bay-threatened-by-deep-water-phosphate-mining/ 14:54:49 <andythenorth> http://www.oceanflore.com/17 14:55:54 <andythenorth> http://www.linternaute.com/science/technologie/diaporamas/06/paysages-industriels/images/02.jpg 14:58:53 *** Progman [~progman@p57A181ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:00:37 <andythenorth> phosphate just likes like nitrates though 15:00:44 <andythenorth> so nah 15:02:15 <andythenorth> likes / looks 15:07:51 <frosch123> stuff with other colours is nice 15:08:15 <andythenorth> maybe I should just play the economy :P 15:08:36 <frosch123> but yes, it sounds like more fertilizer 15:08:47 <frosch123> some electronic cargo may be nicer 15:08:59 <frosch123> rare earth is not that bad 15:10:49 <andythenorth> ârare earth mineâ? 15:12:13 <andythenorth> mostly china, it seems 15:13:52 <andythenorth> platinum? 100t per year? 15:18:50 <andythenorth> soda ash mining? From lakes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Magadi#/media/File:Lake_Magadi_2014.jpg 15:29:19 <Eearslya> Add ALL the industries! 15:31:33 <Alberth> only 32 cargoes :p 15:32:06 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 15:32:38 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 15:33:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: uranium is too ivory? 15:36:36 <Eearslya> Alberth: I think you mean 3200 15:41:00 <andythenorth> uranium is possible 15:41:22 <andythenorth> as is salt, soda ash, a bunch of minerals :) 15:41:26 <andythenorth> I could just put gold in :P 15:41:35 <andythenorth> gold is annoying, because itâs low volume :) 15:42:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkolobwe 15:43:37 <andythenorth> what transports uranium? o_O 15:43:44 <Alberth> nah, not in openttd :) 15:44:07 <Alberth> yetis 15:44:12 <Eearslya> Just make every tile be an industry, problem solved 15:45:21 <Alberth> number of industries is not a problem, as long as you have not more than 64 types of them 15:45:59 <Alberth> but euhm, some room for rail tracks would be nice :) 15:47:16 <drac_boy> and grass :) 15:52:34 <andythenorth> I could do cocoa 15:52:42 <andythenorth> itâs a bit similar to coffee though 15:52:55 <andythenorth> for OpenTTD purposes 15:55:34 <Eearslya> Cocoa could be coffee for toyland 15:57:36 <Alberth> toyland needs more magical cargoes, like magic, sprinkles, and stuff 15:57:54 <Eearslya> pixie dust 15:58:03 <Eearslya> + faith and trust 15:58:24 <Alberth> stars 15:58:49 <Eearslya> Magic could feed into a wand factory :D 15:59:56 <andythenorth> unicorns 16:00:08 <andythenorth> glitter 16:01:45 <Alberth> sun rays 16:03:50 <Eearslya> silly hats 16:04:12 <Eearslya> joy/jokes 16:04:42 <andythenorth> christmas lights 16:05:43 <Wolf01> mmmh, could somebody help me? (XNA graphics) i'm trying to draw sprites in different layers with a single pass of the sprite batch, but it only draws the last layer used 16:06:57 <Eearslya> you could try and tweak the pixel opacity on the omega layer of the--I have no idea what you're doing 16:08:45 <Wolf01> uhm, it might be 16:09:31 <Mazur> Crackers. 16:09:42 <Mazur> Parrty hats. 16:10:12 <Mazur> Joy buzzers, also useful as feminine products. 16:24:06 <Alberth> so many nice cargoes to tranport :) 16:27:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: natual uranium is not that dangerous 16:27:10 <frosch123> it is quite toxic 16:27:28 <frosch123> but not particulary radioactive before enrichment 16:27:36 <frosch123> so, i guess like copper? 16:27:58 <andythenorth> I think Iâm going to put gold in 16:28:05 <andythenorth> itâs the major west african export by value :P 16:28:10 <andythenorth> and I donât have to draw anything 16:28:54 <frosch123> :p 16:29:11 <andythenorth> it comes to about the same, in terms of quantities and game effect :) 16:29:35 <frosch123> also true :) 16:32:00 <Wolf01> mmmh, suddenly it works without changes (i just reverted the changes i made because i found they didn't work as expected) 16:34:33 <Wolf01> i just changed the background from Color.Black to Color.White and to black again just to check if it was a problem of the renderer... 16:34:38 <Wolf01> wtf 16:35:35 <Alberth> you triggered a recompilation of some critical file? 16:36:41 <Wolf01> i don't think so, i was working on the same 2 classes 16:37:41 <Wolf01> other changes were shown, i doubt it is so stupid to compile only half of a class 16:38:56 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:38:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 16:39:18 <__ln__> @seen Bjarni 16:39:18 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 5 weeks, 5 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh 16:39:56 <Wolf01> but i found that drawing a rectangle as a background instead of just clearing the render target doesn't work 16:41:53 <Wolf01> but it crashed just when preparing a 1x1 black texture, after i removed the code it worked :| 16:42:18 <__ln__> maybe you should call Bjarni and ask for hints 16:43:20 <Wolf01> it seem that nobody knows the right procedure to summon him, and i don't want to lose a leg and an arm to try 16:44:04 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 16:44:29 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:36 <__ln__> it's not like his home address and phone number isn't online 16:44:49 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:24:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: Hopes and Impediments GS? (yeah FIRS specific, eh) 17:25:03 <andythenorth> in a number of cities, build industries producing Food and Building Materials 17:25:07 <andythenorth> transport x per year 17:25:30 <andythenorth> + it messes with you occasionally, by destroying industries, or routes, or confiscating your money 17:38:21 <frosch123> i think award-driven gs are better than punishment-driven gs :p 17:38:29 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:39:53 <Alberth> indeed, I'd play with it, until the first time it messes with me 17:40:07 <andythenorth> do you two have disasters disabled? 17:40:15 <frosch123> yes :) 17:40:19 <Alberth> yes 17:40:26 <andythenorth> +1 17:40:26 <andythenorth> same reason 17:40:30 <frosch123> service industry well, and another may pop up 17:40:32 <Alberth> mostly due to the big ufo thing 17:40:42 <frosch123> colonisation gs :) 17:40:47 <andythenorth> subsidence is the one that annoys me :P 17:40:53 <andythenorth> hmm 17:40:54 <frosch123> starting industries only at sea 17:41:01 <frosch123> growing inwards 17:41:06 <andythenorth> I do want to do that 17:41:18 <andythenorth> but for a North American economy 17:41:27 <andythenorth> maybe it works for African / Post-Colonial too 17:42:16 <andythenorth> I would have it build towns also, maybe thatâs an optional parameter though 17:42:29 <Eearslya> I always play with disasters and breakdowns off 17:42:30 <andythenorth> more generic, configurable GS 17:43:05 * andythenorth wonders who should control industry placement, FIRS or GS :P 17:43:09 <Alberth> breakdowns off is too easy :) 17:43:17 <andythenorth> FIRS has limited control, GS has limited knowledge of industry :P 17:44:05 <Taede> can firs supply details about industries to gs? 17:44:08 <andythenorth> nah 17:44:13 <andythenorth> no communication 17:44:16 <andythenorth> zilch 17:44:21 <sim-al2> I've always wondered what CS was thinking with breakdowns in the orginal... 17:44:30 <andythenorth> nvm, the map can be whatever the map is 17:44:39 <Taede> in that case, firs 17:44:43 <frosch123> sim-al2: same as with slopes? 17:44:49 <Taede> as firs will need to do it anyway when there is no gs 17:45:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: what would be industry specific? 17:45:15 <andythenorth> for placement? 17:45:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27447 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-15 18:45:11 +0100 ) 17:45:22 <frosch123> the life_type information was enough for sv 17:45:23 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:24 <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ 17:45:38 <frosch123> can you give examples? 17:45:50 <frosch123> what would a gs do with placement for specific industries? 17:45:55 <andythenorth> I am setting it by probability currently, for H+I 17:46:20 <sim-al2> frosch123: I admit I haven't actually played the orginal, but since vanilla OTTD is compatiable, I assume the slope and curve model behaved the same? 17:46:22 <andythenorth> so farms growing export crops, plus copper, diamond mines are available widely at game start 17:46:41 <andythenorth> industry producing non-export cargos are very limited, and have to be funded 17:46:58 <frosch123> sim-al2: there are two accerlation models in ottd for trains: "original" (i think still the default), and "realistic 17:47:03 <andythenorth> itâs easy to control by probability, but I donât bother about, e.g. placing most near coast or whatever 17:47:10 <frosch123> the original one baiscally says "never build on any slope ever" 17:47:21 <andythenorth> who knows if thereâs even coast :P 17:47:54 <andythenorth> so thatâs one issue (industries placed at map gen time) 17:48:02 <andythenorth> the other is which industries to open new instances of 17:48:03 <sim-al2> Yeah, I played the orgnial acceleration model for a few minutes and was so confused I never have played with it again :) 17:54:47 <Zuu> Taede: For GS -> NewGRF communication, I made a post about a patch here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=73366 17:55:16 <Zuu> NewGRF -> GS will not work other than that NewGRF could set attributes to objects they supply OpenTTD which the GS could read via GS APIs. 17:55:35 <Zuu> Callbacks in GS cannot really exist. NewGRF could at best trigger an event being sent to the GS. 17:56:11 <Zuu> GS ::Save() being an exception for a callback that we do have though. :-) 17:56:29 <Zuu> With problems of some AIs/GSs taking too long to save. 18:01:31 <Zuu> Oh, and I even made a GS that make use of the GS -> NewGRF bridge. But it turned out being similar to the concept of supplies in FIRS. http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=73379 18:02:08 <Wolf01> bah, i give up... now an entire tile category is not showing up while all the others do :| 18:02:49 <andythenorth> Zuu: donât discount the production change :) 18:03:10 <andythenorth> (1) it offers GS a way to reward player with increased production (2) it can control closures (iirc) 18:03:47 <Alberth> frosch123: orignal TTD didn't have freight weight multiplier :) 18:04:01 <andythenorth> it just happened in summer when I was away a lot, so I never thought about it since :) 18:06:26 <Zuu> There may be other GS ideas that make better use of it perhaps along with a more competent NewGRF than IMessengerNewGRF. But the one I made was not adding much over FIRS supplies. 18:09:08 <andythenorth> no, because itâs driven by player actions :) 18:09:29 <andythenorth> my idea (how I donât know) is to have it driven more by the GS narrative 18:09:48 <andythenorth> FIRS networks are very stable and static once you get them established 18:10:02 <andythenorth> original TTD messes with you more, which is desirable on small maps 18:10:50 <Zuu> Speaking of that, I liked some forum guy trying to make a more storry telling map based on a world map scenario + GS rules. IIRC that user wanted the winning condition to be building two oil refineries. 18:13:08 <Zuu> So you want an Economy GS that mess with production levels? 18:14:00 <Zuu> That is better then the TTD logic that you somehow have disabled(?) in FIRS? 18:17:10 <Alberth> station rating and industry production change is fully in the hands of an industry newgrf 18:18:20 <frosch123> not sure whether you can say that station rating is really in the hands of newgrf :p 18:18:23 <Alberth> but newgrf lacks overview of the world, so cannot really decide eg building new industries, or change of production 18:25:37 <andythenorth> with GS, industries could respond to all kinds of things 18:25:52 <andythenorth> whereas with newgrf, itâs pretty much limited to cargo delivery 18:26:05 <andythenorth> so for example (lame example), electricity could be faked 18:26:31 <andythenorth> generating power in a town could double industry production there 18:27:02 <andythenorth> actually that would fit well for the economy I am working on :o 18:27:21 <andythenorth> and provide a valid excuse for âdo nothingâ industries like wind farms and hydro-plants 18:28:19 <Zuu> In Productive Bee, completeing a town goal, improves production of primary industries of that town. Completing a industry goal upgrade the efficentcy of the destination industry. 18:28:25 <andythenorth> will your patch be in OpenTTD 1.6? o_O 18:28:34 * andythenorth considers rewriting part of FIRS to work better with it 18:28:59 <frosch123> andythenorth: remember town-based newgrf persistent storage? :) 18:29:03 <frosch123> it's actually implemented 18:29:11 <frosch123> you can do powerplants with that 18:29:20 <andythenorth> I know 18:29:23 <andythenorth> I just never did :P 18:29:36 <andythenorth> has *anybody* done anything with town storage? o_O 18:29:47 <frosch123> nope :p 18:30:03 <Zuu> Depends on if I find time and motivation to work on it. 18:30:04 <_dp_> me :) 18:30:14 <frosch123> just like noone uses extended action1 or new capacity multipliers 18:30:40 <_dp_> used it to hide some data in savegame without breaking compatibility :) 18:31:23 <andythenorth> hmm 18:31:47 <Zuu> _dp_: I looked at your FS#6378 town growth patch. But it takes some time to grasp. :-) 18:32:11 <_dp_> well, I tried my best to explain) 18:32:32 <andythenorth> I think, if I went looking in transcripts, I was told that using town storage for electricity was a monstrous fragile hack 18:32:39 <andythenorth> âand I should know betterâ :P 19:05:19 <andythenorth> hmm 19:07:04 <andythenorth> probably canât haul copper in one of these :o https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8201/8170684404_fc0e7e9733_b.jpg 19:07:04 <andythenorth> nvm 19:10:58 <Alberth> wouldn't that be short distance only? 19:11:13 <Alberth> assuming copper should stay liquid? 19:15:38 <Zuu> _dp_: btw I second your idea of Markdown on flyspray. But I would not set my hopes too high. 19:17:35 <greeter> :-D 19:22:03 <greeter> just switched to 32 bit graphics. what an improvement 19:24:02 <Zuu> _dp_: I got a question regarding your growth_rate formula in SetGrowthRate: https://notehub.org/fbsc8 19:24:33 <Alberth> Eearslya: you forgot to fix the multi-sell vehicle button 19:25:16 <Eearslya> Alberth: But you don't drag vehicles onto that button 19:25:25 <Alberth> oh sure you do 19:25:43 <Eearslya> who drags a single vehicle onto the button to sell all the vehicles in the depot 19:25:44 <Alberth> it sells the wagin or engine, and everything after it 19:25:55 <Eearslya> ..Oh. Trains. 19:26:00 <Eearslya> Hm. 19:26:43 <Eearslya> Well I need to do math homework first 19:26:46 <Eearslya> but I'll get that 19:27:17 <Alberth> math hoemwork is much more important :) 19:27:23 <Alberth> and thanks :) 19:27:42 <frosch123> don't you do that by ctrl? 19:28:11 <Alberth> no? 19:28:25 <Alberth> ctrl+ what then? 19:29:21 <_dp_> Zuu, + TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS / 2 is for rounding to nearest instead of rounding down, but about +1 you may be right, let me think a bit 19:29:37 <_dp_> or -1 for that matter 19:30:10 <frosch123> maybe you can use RoundDivSU 19:30:22 <_dp_> Zuu, ah, here you get it: if (growth_rate > 0) growth_rate--; 19:30:39 <_dp_> just had to do it separately coz of unsigned 19:30:59 <frosch123> Alberth: nevermind, got confused :) 19:31:59 * andythenorth invents a generic cargo that might be silly, but solves me a bunch of problems 19:32:02 <andythenorth> industrial minerals 19:33:12 <_dp_> yeah, RoundDivSU is probably fine too. Though it looks a bit fishy for a=0 19:33:16 <Zuu> _dp_: Oh yea I forgot to examinate :5 for the -1. 19:33:47 <Alberth> andythenorth: double Chinook diesel arrived, great train :) 19:34:26 <andythenorth> ha 19:34:58 <andythenorth> I am favouring âthis engine is just the right sizeâ 19:35:25 <andythenorth> and not having to build up multiples, unless you have silly freight weight multiplier 19:35:38 <Zuu> _dp_: Isn't RoundDivSU always going to yield 0 when a is 0? 19:35:49 <andythenorth> also in the UK, a unit of that engine is a Chopper, so itâs a terrible pun also 19:35:55 <Alberth> 4, but short train :) 19:37:13 <andythenorth> hmm, newgrf wiki knows Potash cargo already 19:37:21 <andythenorth> but I think I want something more generic 19:38:36 <_dp_> Zuu, well, mb it is but it's hard to tell on a first glance coz it's going in < 0 branch 19:38:50 *** roidal [~roland@194-152-172-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.2] 19:39:22 <andythenorth> label for Industrial Minerals? 19:39:33 <andythenorth> shame InMin is too long :P 19:39:44 * _dp_ never trusts comments 19:39:57 <Zuu> Yep, but if b is say 100, then in the top you get (0 - (100-1)/2) = (0 - 99/2) = (0 - 48). Then divide it by 100, and you get 0. 19:40:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess better go for GOLD 19:40:23 <_dp_> Zuu, yy, now I see it too 19:40:26 <Zuu> No matter how lange be is, the top part of the division is gonig to be less than the bottom part. 19:40:42 <Zuu> s/be/b/ 19:40:59 <andythenorth> heh 19:41:04 <andythenorth> canât make cement from GOLD :) 19:41:05 <andythenorth> afaik 19:41:20 <frosch123> noone will know what industrial minerals is 19:41:29 <Zuu> I'm not sure I would have implemented that function that way though. But it seem to handle a=0. 19:41:37 <andythenorth> itâs almost just âstuffâ :P 19:41:45 <andythenorth> it comes from a âmine' 19:41:57 <frosch123> picking an existing cargo label at random would be better :p 19:42:32 <frosch123> Zuu: a=0 works for both the upper and lower case 19:42:43 <frosch123> it doesn't matter 19:42:58 <Zuu> Anyway thanks for explaining the formula thingy. Appears your formula is sound. Then if it should be like you wrote it or using RoundDivSU is another question. I didn't even knew RoundivSU existed before you told me. 19:43:46 <andythenorth> InMin :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_mineral 19:43:50 <andythenorth> itâs all the things 19:44:01 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, but with a>=0 would be a bit more clean imo. very minor thing though 19:44:18 <Zuu> One point for keeping it as _db_ did it is it won't do unsigned => signed conversion. 19:45:52 <frosch123> sounds academic :p 19:45:59 <_dp_> actually, there is other flaw in RoundDivSU, it accepts uint b but instanly butchers it with conversion to int) 19:46:24 <frosch123> are you sure you know how uint and int work? 19:46:41 <_dp_> I suspect it's to disallow calling it with b<0 but assert would probably be better there 19:47:00 <frosch123> it's said in the very description that a is signed, and b is unsigned 19:47:27 <frosch123> for a signed b it would be way more complicated 19:47:47 <frosch123> your would need +1 instead of -1 19:48:25 <_dp_> ok, nvm, it can overflow in + anyway, there is just no good way of fighting it in C I guess 19:50:33 <andythenorth> well 19:50:47 <andythenorth> industrial minerals could be secondary cargo at clay pit and copper ore mine 19:50:55 <andythenorth> nah actually 19:57:51 <Zuu> _dp_: TOWN_GROW_RATE_NORMAL is a new special value that can be sent to CmdTownGrowthRate, thus you should include it in doxygen comment for p2 where it says the possible values p2 can take. 19:58:28 <frosch123> does it need any compatibility scripts? 19:58:39 <frosch123> savegame conversion? 19:59:13 <_dp_> Zuu, it's not new, I just changed it value to fit in uint16 19:59:42 <Zuu> Well, then it is an old flaw of the doxygen comment. :-) 20:01:25 <_dp_> frosch123, definitely not savegame and don't think it needs compatibility either 20:01:40 <Zuu> Maybe academic, but personally I would call it "growth interval" rather than "growth rate". 20:02:02 <Zuu> But then the API is already GrowthRate and may be too late to change. 20:02:26 <Zuu> Or at least out of the scope of this patch. 20:03:53 <_dp_> frosch123, though it probably needs savegame version bump 20:06:30 <andythenorth> bah 20:06:42 <frosch123> if there is no savegame conversion, it also needs no version bump 20:06:44 <andythenorth> if my InMin hack is unacceptable, Iâll have to fix the actual problems :P 20:07:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: switch to iron horse again 20:07:29 <andythenorth> ha ha 20:07:37 <frosch123> InMin is seriously stupid :p 20:07:39 <andythenorth> clay bothers me for this african economy 20:07:57 <andythenorth> apparently, whoâd have thought, iron ore or bauxite are frequently used in cement manufacture 20:08:02 <andythenorth> itâs like an education, OpenTTD 20:08:08 <andythenorth> maybe I donât need clay 20:08:18 <andythenorth> âbut people will find it weird andythenorth' 20:09:04 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:30 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:12:27 <_dp_> frosch123, nah, it's tricky, it introduces new special value for growth_rate, it doesn't need conversion and can't be deduced anyway, but needs version bump to disallow reading new saves with old versions that will treat it as regular value instead of special 20:13:10 <Zuu> Hmm so the point of TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED is that it is a large number which the growth_rate will be set to so that the TwonTickHandler will set grow_counter this large number if the counter get down to zero before a 'normal' growth_rate has been calculated? 20:13:30 <frosch123> _dp_: noone uses that special value 20:13:46 <andythenorth> iron ore, never gets boring, letâs add that 20:13:51 <andythenorth> itâs in most other economies :P 20:14:13 <frosch123> that's why i never understood that patch :p 20:15:14 <Zuu> Yeah it is a bit strange that the growth code is not changed to check for TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED. But it beeing a very large number seem to make it work anyway. 20:17:36 <andythenorth> hmm, this economy will work well with NCG, if I can get the goals to be building materials and food 20:18:50 <Zuu> Hack it? Or be lucky :-) 20:19:29 <_dp_> Zuu, nah, it's just a special value to indicate that growth_rate is not calulated yet, and it only appears when town is not growing (so tick handler has nothing to do with it) 20:20:42 <_dp_> frosch123, what do you mean noone? it can happen, though is not very likely so probably nobody will notice a bug 20:22:33 <Zuu> Oh I see your Cmd calls UpdateTownGrowRate. I though it was called eventually some time in the future. 20:23:44 <frosch123> _dp_: that value is used nowhere 20:24:27 <frosch123> UpdateTownGrowRate rassigned growth_rate before anyone uses it 20:25:08 <frosch123> i think all that the patch changes is changing some rounding from rounding-down to rounding nearest in the api part 20:25:09 <_dp_> no, UpdateTownGrowRate doesn't update rate if town is not growing 20:25:20 <_dp_> and that's the whole reason for that undef value 20:25:21 <frosch123> i think the changes in town_cmd.cpp do nothing at all 20:26:05 <_dp_> it only matters when someone uses gs to change rate while town is not growing 20:27:57 <_dp_> frosch123, and you're completely wrong assuming it only changes rounding 20:28:05 <_dp_> it changes a lot of small things 20:31:01 <Zuu> Oh.. UpdateTownGrowRate can sometimes by random fail to set growth_rate. So then after the Cmd is completed, growth_rate will be left at TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED 20:31:18 <frosch123> ok, if the town is not growing because of preconditions, it changes the api to return a larget GetGrowthRate instead of a very small one 20:31:23 <frosch123> both look equally wrong to me 20:32:07 <frosch123> don't you rather want to change UpdateTownGrowRate, so that it always computes a growth_rate? 20:32:23 <frosch123> instead of leaving a random (though fixed) value in it? 20:32:30 <Zuu> MaybeUpdateTownGrowRate should not by some random return when growth_rate == TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED? 20:32:47 <_dp_> frosch123, it isn't about GetGrowthRate, it's all about SetGrowthRate, but you have a point there, I didn't think of what get will be returning 20:33:46 <Zuu> I haven't got to the GetGrowthRate yet, but the main ponit of the patch as I see it is for GSes that do frequent changes to growth rate. 20:35:33 <_dp_> Zuu, yeah, it's all about gs, you see it right) 20:36:00 <_dp_> frosch123, I'll think of changing UpdateGrowthRate, mb you're right 20:36:08 <Zuu> As in trunk, changing rowth rate resets the grow_counter to growth rate. But with the patch it tries to keep growth progress and even scale it when rate is changed. 20:36:33 <frosch123> i think UpdateTownGrowRate should be split into two functions 20:36:38 <frosch123> a separate GetNormalGrowthRate 20:36:42 <_dp_> frosch123, didn't consider it as I was trying to fix GS and not dig deep in town growing mechanics) 20:36:46 <Zuu> grow_counter start at growth_rate and then is decreased until it reaches 0 and then town grows. 20:36:47 <frosch123> which the command can use, to assign growth_rate 20:36:59 <frosch123> and scale grow_counter 20:38:22 <frosch123> Zuu: i think _dp_ main problem is, that "old_rate" in CmdTownGrowthRate is incorrect, if the previous UpdateTownGrowRate did not compute a growth_rate 20:39:05 <Zuu> Well it will not get to that line, because it check if t>growth_rate != TOWR_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED 20:39:16 <Zuu> But I second your suggestion as it avoids that situation. 20:39:20 <frosch123> in trunk "old_rate" is mostly 0, in the patched version it would be 0x7FFF 20:39:26 <frosch123> both values are wrong, just in different directions 20:40:16 <Zuu> In the patch if "old_rate" is 0x7FFF it won't scale at all. 20:40:37 <Zuu> It will only check if counter >= p2, and in that case set counter := p2. 20:42:31 <_dp_> hm, ok, din't find any problems with fixing UpdateTownGrowRate instead, I'll update patch then 20:43:05 <frosch123> Zuu: that's the same what trunk does 20:43:30 <frosch123> in trunk 0 is essentially the same as _UNDEFINED 20:44:23 <_dp_> frosch123, Zuu, did you look in examples I included in bug description? they're a bit mess without markdown, but I did them specifically to compare with trunk(or so) 20:45:03 <Zuu> I started looking on them, but then when I started to look at the code it made more sense. :-) 20:48:34 <Zuu> frosch123: Oh I see trunk scales too. I kind of ignored the negative part of the patch. 20:48:48 <Zuu> (negative = rows with a -) 20:49:43 <_dp_> Zuu, btw, looking in test-town-growth-cmd.cpp I included may also help 20:50:14 <Zuu> _db_: when you pass 0 to CmdTownGrowthRate it should reset custom growth rate according to doxygen. Does that happen still with your patch? 20:51:18 <Zuu> With pass, I mean p2 := 0 20:52:48 <_dp_> Zuu, no, missed that, ty, I'll remove that part in next ver of patch 20:54:17 <_dp_> no, not remove, replace 0 with TOWN_GROWTH_NORMAL 20:54:45 <_dp_> *TOWN_GROW_RATE_NORMAL 20:54:51 <_dp_> too many constants %) 20:58:02 <Zuu> Sounds good assuming no code is actually passing 0 to it. 20:59:43 <_dp_> Zuu, it's only used by GS and that part I changed 21:00:24 <_dp_> hm, anyone knows why UpdateTownGrowRate calls SetWindowDirty three times? 21:01:08 <frosch123> once should be enough :) 21:01:51 <_dp_> ok, I'll fix it too then) 21:02:14 <frosch123> it does not matter when SetDirty is called 21:02:21 <frosch123> it marks the screen area dirty 21:02:34 <frosch123> the drawing (an usage of variables) happenes later 21:02:53 <frosch123> so, it is enough to call SetDirty at the beginning, no need to call it at every return 21:03:44 <Eearslya> Alberth: Think I got it done; you want me to make a FS issue or just give you the diff? 21:04:06 <Alberth> please add it to fly spray, I am off to bed soon 21:04:30 <Eearslya> Oh, and FYI, they were right. Holding CTRL while dropping a vehicle on the Sell button will do the same as sell chain 21:05:01 <Alberth> ah, still learning things about openttd :) 21:05:18 <Eearslya> As am I! 21:05:30 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, I suspected that, but hard to tell that none of SetDirty functions rely on that, I'm not very good with gui code :( 21:05:56 <Alberth> also, don't bring scrap metal to iron works, they don't want it :p 21:06:45 <andythenorth> o_O 21:07:08 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, it's not virtual, that makes it easier) 21:07:09 <andythenorth> yes there are some gameplay facets there :) 21:10:51 <Eearslya> There we are, uploaded and ready for review 21:11:25 <Zuu> _dp_: I'd say it is a general fact for many GUI systems, not just OpenTTD that a "set dirty" command would not actally repaint the screen right ahead. 21:12:15 <Zuu> But if you never dealt with it before it may not be obvious. 21:13:17 <_dp_> Zuu, I know, just being a bit paranoid :) 21:14:16 <Zuu> A portion of paranoidism may be good when programming. :-) 21:15:34 <frosch123> i don't think the difference of InvalidateData and SetDirty is that obvious :p 21:18:00 <Zuu> No, but wasn't the question the difference of calling SetDirty 1 time or 3 times? 21:19:14 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 21:21:38 <frosch123> yes, but for InvalidateData it would not be the same :p 21:21:51 * andythenorth needs one more cargo 21:21:55 <andythenorth> some kind of valuable export 21:22:00 <andythenorth> but eh, not today 21:22:01 <andythenorth> bed 21:22:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:22:39 <Zuu> frosch123: Ah. well that is a point. 21:23:36 <Zuu> The doxygen of InvalidateData doesn't make any good on conveying that OnInvalidateData is being called right away. It says "Mark this window's data as invalid (in need of re-computing)" 21:24:34 <Zuu> Though, there is a distinction there between gui_scope true/false in what it does. 21:24:58 <frosch123> the documenation is in InvalidateWindowData :p 21:27:19 <frosch123> it's one of the nastier parts of ottd :) 21:33:32 <_dp_> frosch123, Zuu, with fixed UpdateTownGrowRate I'm considering moving all grow_counter calculation there instead of doing it in CmdTownGrowthRate, what do you think? 21:33:54 <frosch123> sounds reasonable 21:34:00 <_dp_> it brings up that counter scale question, but at least it will be consistent)) 21:34:21 <frosch123> i think always scale is most consistent 21:34:33 <frosch123> it's most robust wrt. to multiple changes imho 21:35:49 <_dp_> well, so be it, doesn't look like it matters much to me anyway 21:35:59 <_dp_> still, there is more than one way to scale :) 21:36:20 <_dp_> ((2 * t->grow_counter + 1) * (p2 + 1)) / (2 * (old_rate + 1)) - 1 21:36:29 <_dp_> ((t->grow_counter + 1) * (p2 + 1) + (old_rate + 1) / 2) / (old_rate + 1) - 1 21:36:46 <_dp_> current is: t->grow_counter * p2 / old_rate 21:36:53 <Eearslya> oh god the math 21:36:55 <Eearslya> it hurts 21:37:18 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:38:09 <Zuu> Eearslya: Wasn't you doing math homework? 21:38:55 <Eearslya> Well yes but at least my math makes sense 21:39:12 <_dp_> it's about that progress uncertainty interval I mention in bug 21:39:41 <_dp_> first formula puts it to lower end of interval, second to the middle iirc 21:39:49 <_dp_> and current is all over it) 21:42:00 <_dp_> also could probably use exact tick value to make it even more complicated xD 21:52:03 <frosch123> night 21:52:06 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x4d0083dd.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 21:52:30 <Zuu> That's a good idea. Good night. 21:52:35 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:13 *** gelignite [~gelignite@x5ce33ed7.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/1kso8Ta] 22:31:15 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 22:33:40 *** supermop [~supermop@pool-108-6-12-46.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 22:36:20 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:48:29 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 22:55:18 *** tipsyTina [~tipsy@71-95-46-54.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #openttd 22:57:18 *** Progman [~progman@p57A181ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:48 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:22 *** supermop [~supermop@pool-108-6-12-46.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:20:22 *** JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd 23:49:07 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 23:50:55 <Wolf01> 'night 23:50:58 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:51:11 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd