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Log for #openttd on 20th November 2015:
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00:01:37  <drac_boy> hi wolf01 :)
00:01:45  <Wolf01> o/
00:02:50  *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-174.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:03:43  <drac_boy> ah, meh :-s
00:03:47  <drac_boy> oh well heh
00:04:18  <Flygon> Eddi: And family wonders why I don't buy low fat
00:04:21  <Flygon> Every time I got low fat
00:04:23  <Flygon> I got fatter
00:05:33  <drac_boy> flygon it really depends on food regulations tbh
00:05:40  <Flygon> Ehh
00:05:47  <Flygon> I would dare say America doesn't HAVE food regulations
00:05:48  <Flygon> :B:B
00:05:49  <drac_boy> here you can't hide fat/sodium under alternative logos at all
00:06:00  <Flygon> (whipped cheese wasn't legally classifiable as a food in Australia @_@)
00:06:16  <Supercheese> cheez whiz
00:06:21  <Supercheese> blaauugh
00:06:31  <Flygon> I aint sayin' they aint listed in the tables here. I'm just saying marketing overrides the ability to read a table. xP
00:06:41  <Flygon> Supercheese: I promise not to can you
00:06:45  <Flygon> Just promise not to ball me
00:06:55  <Supercheese> blaaaaauuuugh
00:06:56  *** Flygon [~Flygon@ppp118-209-58-247.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:07:36  *** Flygon [~Flygon@ppp118-209-58-247.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd
00:07:47  <Supercheese> maybe I'll use an apricorn instead
00:07:51  <Supercheese> oldschool
00:08:17  <Flygon> Sorry, someone's bad joke in a diff server actually crashed my IRC client
00:08:57  <Supercheese> so... if you pun hard enough, you can break the Internet?
00:09:27  <Flygon> Ys
00:09:28  <Flygon> Yes*
00:09:35  <Flygon> It didn't help that it was a subway joke
00:10:50  <drac_boy> subway? not LUL i hope :)
00:11:15  <Flygon> Oh, right
00:11:35  <Flygon> I'm in #openttd, I forgot some countries call their metropolis train networks Subways
00:11:52  <Flygon> Here, we just call it the Train Network :U
00:12:01  <Supercheese> well, just undergrounds mostly
00:12:37  <Supercheese> and the sub sandwich chain of restaurants :B
00:13:00  <drac_boy> flygon I only mentioned that because I know a site that quoted strange/funny messages heard on the tanny in the LUL system :)
00:13:04  <Flygon> (I still argue that a properly built Tram network is more convenient than a subway, combined with a long distance heavy rail. But, what do I know about transport planning xP)
00:13:31  <Flygon> Yeah, Subway just known for their footlongs here
00:13:41  <Supercheese> "What are your qualifications for transport design engineer?" "Well, I've played like, a billion games of OpenTTD..."
00:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> some towns are even worse, they put a miniscule part of their tram underground, and put the subway sign on it
00:13:54  <drac_boy> especially about an ex-plane captain now driving a tube and actually telling his passengers "we're at xxx altitude, temperature is xxx, timezone has not changed. have a good day!"
00:14:05  <drac_boy> I wonder about that sort of things sometimes heh
00:14:10  <Flygon> Eddi: Derp.
00:14:27  <Flygon> drac_boy: Well, the SCMaglev trains are technically aircraft...
00:14:38  <Flygon> They even have actual altitudes from the 'ground'
00:14:47  <Flygon> Frankly, it's a plane without wings!!!
00:15:00  <drac_boy> flygon as for transport planning .. you probably don't want to hire me if your city has a mess of underground sections :p
00:15:12  <Flygon> Melbourne? Eh
00:15:24  <drac_boy> otherwise just stay out of the way (and don't complain about art-isty wires in certain sections too) :)
00:15:25  <Flygon> The only real 'subway' part of it is the City Loop in the CBD
00:15:36  <Flygon> ?? What's wrong with wires?
00:15:42  <Flygon> I'm terrified of third rail
00:15:50  <Flygon> There's ZERO third rail networks in Australia!
00:16:01  <Flygon> And the wires we do have, at least, in Melbourne, particulary with the Trams
00:16:04  <Flygon> Are pretty well hidden
00:16:24  <drac_boy> btw why 'art-isty' I meant more like it does not look lik e aindustrial cement pole holding a simple steel i-beam
00:16:37  <drac_boy> thats the wrong way to go doing it but a lot of "cheap" cities apparently do it in these sort of ways
00:16:55  <Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/E_6001_(Melbourne_tram)_in_Nicholson_St_on_route_96,_2013.JPG And this is actually on the 'worse' end of the spectrum for most of the network
00:17:06  <Flygon> http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/06/06/kn_tramsjpeg_wideweb__470x301,0.jpg Though, there is some exeptionally messy bits :B
00:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it's more commonly steel poles here, i think
00:17:31  <Supercheese> Flygon: looks like San Francisco's muni trams/trolleybuses
00:17:59  <Supercheese> the overhead wire network, at least
00:18:09  <Flygon> Supercheese: SanFran is Northern Hemisphere Tram capital. Melbourne is Southern Hemisphere Tram capital
00:18:17  <Flygon> Not too surprised by some potentially shared styles/technologies xP
00:18:24  <Supercheese> Ha, I see
00:18:32  <drac_boy> umm...yeah too many wires period .. :)
00:18:59  <drac_boy> btw flygon..you aussie and we used to talk a bit about some of the older trains especially the red slamdoors right?
00:19:12  <Flygon> Too many wires? Hardly
00:19:28  <Flygon> Red slamdoors? That's a new one
00:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the weirdest part of that image is the tram driving on the wrong side
00:20:17  <drac_boy> I forgot the name..something about victorian emu with only one window (as the position for 2nd one wasn't there) for the cab ... and the side profile almost looked same as a normal coach if it wasn't for the pantographs
00:20:30  <Flygon> (excuse the instagram filter) http://41.media.tumblr.com/84ddabaa307c874142b7576f146a07db/tumblr_nvdsssi0hl1uwtj3no1_1280.jpg There's hardly any wires here!
00:20:54  <Flygon> drac_boy: You mean Red Rattler?
00:20:58  <drac_boy> "any wires"? well THAT is how I would do it to be honest :) .. just one long line per route/track :)
00:21:03  <Flygon> There was the Swing Door and Sliding Door varieties
00:21:30  <Flygon> The Swing Doors tended to get their doors lobbed off by bridges and tunnels
00:21:34  <drac_boy> flygon .. ah... yep thats it http://www.victorianrailways.net/photogallery/gall03/03-03.jpg
00:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i genuinely despise people who deliberately take colours out of pictures
00:21:42  <Flygon> As in... people left them unlocked, then the EMU would hit 80-100
00:21:50  <drac_boy> and btw I don't recall .. whats with that weird "hump" around the cab?
00:21:52  <Flygon> And then the doors hit some tight clearance areas
00:22:02  <Flygon> The hump?
00:22:12  <Flygon> The EMUs were built in the 1870s-1880s
00:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy who had colour pictures from like the 1950's. and he took the fricking colours out!
00:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and it even looked terrible!
00:22:31  <Flygon> It was the cestorly (I know I spelt that wrong) styling of the time
00:22:35  <Flygon> They got EMUized in the 1920s
00:23:15  <Flygon> Or - The hump serves no purpose whatsoever apart from looking cool
00:23:18  <drac_boy> flygon well in that photo I found .. it seem like theres supposed to be something beside the destination board taking up space in that full-width hump over the cab section itself
00:23:33  <Flygon> Oh, yes. I forgot about the desto board
00:23:38  <Flygon> But apart from that, no real purpose
00:24:15  <Flygon> Eddi: Now you know how I feel about American/European driving directions xP
00:24:24  <drac_boy> heh looks a little strange .. and the airhorn apparently appear to be mounted behind the hump .. can't wonder what it would sound like if the driver left these sideway-sliding windows opened!
00:24:35  <Flygon> Or - I find it impossible to play OTTD in Right-side driving x.x
00:25:07  <Flygon> drac_boy: I'm not sure if the windows were openable or not
00:25:15  <Flygon> Considering they were from the 1870s-1880s
00:25:32  <drac_boy> flygon well the two sections are not overlaid .. it looks like theres enough offset for one to slide over the other one
00:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> at least in germany, humps like this were common in the time of separately braked and unbraked wagons, so the train leader can oversee brake operators on the whole train
00:26:09  <drac_boy> eddi .. well this one is a bit odd because the cab window is to the right side but the hump's window is to the left side
00:26:30  <drac_boy> (unless they're using engineer/fireman placement difference)
00:27:04  <Flygon> Eddi: Considering the age of the carriages, that might actually be the reason
00:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the train leader is someone separate from the train driver
00:27:26  <Flygon> They were originally locomotive hauled (duh), and the carriage portion would have a guard at the rear end monitoring the carriages
00:27:57  <drac_boy> flygon but anyway ... the main reason I bought this up now is because heh well I'm just curious .. were there much of any third rail running in australia?
00:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the upper window would need some elevated ground under it, it would probably not be advisable to have that overlap with the drivers cab
00:29:17  <Flygon> drac_boy: Virtually non-existant
00:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so a window on the cab side would have no purpose
00:29:26  <Flygon> 600v would've been too low for the heavy rail lines anyway
00:29:37  <Flygon> So we jumped right to 1500vDC in the 1910s and used overhead
00:31:06  <drac_boy> flygon heh I had to ask anyway
00:31:45  <Flygon> And I'd bet the only reason the Trams used 600v was due to that being the only thing available for the same period
00:32:04  <Flygon> As in
00:32:06  <Flygon> Same period being...
00:32:09  <Flygon> 1890s for the Trams
00:32:14  <Flygon> My language skills are subpar
00:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> 600V is pretty common for trams
00:33:39  <drac_boy> at least overhead isn't hard to do especially when you got the option for Sommerfeldt if you don't want make it yourself http://www.sommerfeldt.de/index.html
00:33:53  <Flygon> "Pretty common". Dude, it's THE Tram voltage :D
00:33:56  <drac_boy> (just my own random not)
00:33:59  <drac_boy> note*
00:34:48  <drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for
00:35:05  <Flygon> iirc, Melbourne's Trams probably use AC motors
00:35:09  <Flygon> As in, the modern ones
00:35:13  <Flygon> Do NOT quote me on this though
00:36:12  <drac_boy> btw interesting little tidbit...the pre-overhead third rail electrification used for the Grand Central Terminal (or was it a different station name?) was also at like 500-700V too as this was direct feed to the resistor taps for the motors
00:36:53  * Flygon nod
00:37:08  <Flygon> I do think the 'electrics only' rule is a tad silly
00:37:16  <drac_boy> so yeah some of the small locomotives that came out in the middle between 3rd rail still being active and overhead elsewhere being built out actually had a dual lowdc+11Kac supply
00:37:47  <Flygon> Hell, even the City Loop in Melbourne is practically designed to handle Diesels. Despite being designed mainly just for EMUs
00:37:56  <drac_boy> flygon well you have to think of what it was like back then .. combustion powered was a very small niche so it was mainly steam or the then-expanding electrics
00:38:18  <Flygon> drac: Doesn't mean the legislation imposing this isn't outdated now
00:38:26  <Flygon> With proper ventalation, Diesel really isn't a problem
00:38:35  <Flygon> Granted, this is also a partial problem with the City Loop
00:39:21  <drac_boy> even the cleveland station (even if the track layouts don't seem to suggest it) was usually with steam being electric-hauled out of the station ... the electrification only finally died rapidly when large number of trains became emd hauled (hint: diesels)
00:39:23  <Flygon> (the ventalation systems required are a tad expensive to run, so, they prefer advance warning. This doesn't mean that the random DMUs/Loco pax. trains routed through there immediately kill everyone, just that they prefer not to do that xP)
00:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for <-- i don't think modern trams have DC engines in them. usually it's transformed to 3-phase onboard
00:39:59  <Flygon> (and, yes, we have accidentally routed Diesel trains through our underground system. Metrol appear to smoke crack as part of their diet or something)
00:40:14  <Flygon> (thank goodness a freighter hasn't been routed, yet)
00:41:41  <drac_boy> flygon mind you for a short time (this was mentioned in the station story I read before anyway) a lot of the diesels were rerouted to other works so steam had to fill in the gaps [and the electrics were more often absent as well] and not surprisingly the railroad became embarrased when the smoke regulators caught onto this
00:42:10  <Flygon> Awkward
00:42:53  <Flygon> (Steam locos were used to shunt randomly here throughout into the 70s, but... obviously, almost our entire metropolis network is above ground
00:42:59  <drac_boy> I imagine .. just for you to know the station had a large uphill curved viaduct to deal with on the south side .. so thats why the electric bankers existed till diesels ousted them
00:43:21  <Flygon> (I'm not sure if any Steam locos have actually run live through the City Loop. Don't think the ventalation system is designed for it)
00:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i once read a story on how a steam engine was used during construction of the Munich S-Bahn line under the city
00:44:29  <Eddi|zuHause> because no other engine was available, apparently
00:45:56  <drac_boy> flygon the funny thing is that a lot of the photos for electric-hauled trains out of CUT would more than often show a steady cloud of semi-white smoke coming out from all 6-8 drive axles .. I could be wrong but I suspect they were hitting the throttle hard with sander wide open
00:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (this was prior to the munich olympic games, so in the 1970s, when steam was already on its way out, so this was like a museum engine that happened to be nearby)
00:46:18  <drac_boy> just haven't noticed photos like that at any of the other electrified stations in northwest usa (or at least per PRR/NH)
00:46:57  <Flygon> drac_boy: I was assuming they had a boiler used for the braking and heating systems
00:47:14  <Flygon> Eddi: That'd randomly happen with VR here
00:47:33  <Flygon> And the reason you see the (then) 100 year old EMUs running about in the 1980s photographed
00:47:46  *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd
00:48:13  <drac_boy> flygon well..the boiler was a bit rare and even then it usually was of a donkey style boiler with the smoke stack fitted to the roof
00:48:20  <Flygon> Steam locos would randomly haul pax. too. Helped that most were either as or more powerful than their replacement Diesels @_@
00:48:28  <drac_boy> only the GG1 were knowingly ordered with steam heating by design
00:48:52  <drac_boy> (although they went through two generations..the early steam-like boiler and the later electric-heated-water "diesel era" boiler)
00:49:25  <Flygon> (the R-class locos, when recommissioned by a private railway (West Coast Railways) in the 1990s and 00s would actually outperform the Diesels they ran. Despite being 40-50 years old at the time. They usually ran in MU operation with a Diesel, though)
00:49:59  <Flygon> Hell, V/Line nowadays are practically running museum piece Diesels. A66 is still running, despite being about over 65 years old now.
00:50:03  <drac_boy> btw heres one of these few locomotives that were common around the CUT areas till diesels killed them http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1299/cut218.jpg
00:50:26  <drac_boy> and the long platforms was a rather normal thing back then re fitting more traction axles without having to make the body longer to match
00:50:35  <Flygon> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5L3g-fOfYds/maxresdefault.jpg It runs on sheer absurdity
00:50:42  <drac_boy> (plus a small degree of road crossing protection as well although I dunno about that)
00:50:59  <Flygon> (sadly, the three other A's V/Line still 'have' are permanantly shut down. Mainly to provide spare parts for A66)
00:51:31  <Flygon> drac, that's one of the weirdest looking electric locos I've seen
00:52:21  <drac_boy> flygon well what else do you expect from usa during the 1910-1940's period? :)
00:52:32  <Flygon> Streamliners everywhere? xP
00:52:48  <Flygon> Then again, VR of the same period made some pretty clunky electric locos too
00:52:56  <drac_boy> btw New Haven also was one of the only very few rare places in usa that you could actually find a double-cab carbody unit (NH's was electric but florida's was diesel-electric)
00:53:23  <drac_boy> otherwise (as you probably knew) all carbody diesels elsewhere in usa were of the single cab variety (aside to the booster units themself)
00:53:27  <Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/E1101steeplecab.jpg http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/e/e1102slv.jpg
00:53:30  <drac_boy> one sec...
00:53:33  <Flygon> They're both mechanically the same, note
00:53:57  <drac_boy> http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0105/nh364.jpg heres the NH electric one
00:54:24  <Flygon> (they ran off the same electrical equipment as the Red Rattlers, just.... in locomotive form)
00:54:34  <Flygon> (even the bogies are the same EMU ones)
00:54:43  <Flygon> drac_boy: 404
00:55:28  <Flygon> "The exposure of the driver to this electrical equipment led to them being nicknamed "electric chairs" among drivers.". VR drivers must've been enthusiastic for their locos :U
00:55:30  <drac_boy> hmm one sec
00:56:09  <drac_boy> heres the slight newer version instead https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5069/5675549229_a0df90e6a5_b.jpg
00:56:23  <drac_boy> don't mind THAT paintjob .. it was one that didn't live for a long time anyhow
00:56:35  <Flygon> Interesting design
00:56:55  <Flygon> Somehow thought the NH on the hood was Kanji for a second there
00:56:56  <drac_boy> I'm not sure how much the dual cab configuration got used tbh .. someone would have to check an usa book that talked about them I guess
00:57:14  <Flygon> VR used Dual-cab where possible on the urban network
00:57:37  <Flygon> They didn't want to mess around with turning locomotives around
00:57:57  <Flygon> A lot of old video of VR's operations tends to show tank locos running in reverse hauling a set
00:58:02  <Flygon> They're sprightly little buggers too
00:58:49  <drac_boy> well C&NW simply used push-pull mode instead ... although early on sometimes the mushup could be a bit funny (nothing like a light freight locomotive hauling an E8 which is then hauling three bilevel coaches ... and theres nowwhere to turn this around either)
00:59:14  <drac_boy> flygon .. lol you mentioning tank reminds me of a crazy canadian story I read before (probably still have the magazine too) ....
01:00:15  <drac_boy> the CN commuter (when VIA didn't think of existing yet ofc) train .. well .. lets say that some of them had to turn around in montreal ... normal orders calls for the train to stop on track A then the locomotive run around via B while the coaches are being loaded ...
01:01:14  <drac_boy> but soon enough someone seem to had figured out to simply slow down the train a bit then run the locomotive directly onto B while the coaches themself drift into platform still staying on A .. then the locomotive back out to couple on (and even with the railroad police watching too, apparently noone cared!)
01:01:30  <drac_boy> this probably saved a lot of time (and only having to throw one turnout alone)
01:01:35  <Flygon> xP
01:01:43  <Flygon> Just remembered a recent story from here...
01:01:46  <Flygon> Basically
01:02:00  <Flygon> A66 hauling a set accidentally got routed into Souther Cross Platform 1...
01:02:07  <Flygon> Which's the main INTERSTATE platform
01:02:17  <Flygon> And has zero runaround facilities for locomotives...
01:02:31  <Flygon> ...and it got routed into the platform at the same time the XPT was due to go into it
01:02:44  <Flygon> And there was no other spare DG/SG platforms for the XPT to go into
01:03:23  <Flygon> Combine this with V/Line having no shunters nearby (because they aren't just about to reverse into the businest bit of track in Australia)
01:03:41  <drac_boy> so where did the xpt really stop at? :)
01:03:51  <Flygon> And the fact that the only other thing nearby wouldn't have been able to couple to it if it wanted to to pull it out (the XPT)
01:03:58  <Flygon> Well... the XPT had to wait an hour
01:04:51  <drac_boy> either way this is one of the things that used to push/haul the commuter trains on CN lines a long time ago https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5492/14438163030_0b64b80f52_b.jpg and yep I know it almost could seem like someone rammed a short 2-axle tender into the cab ... as it seem "big" for a tank bunker :)
01:05:03  <Flygon> V/Line had to quickly run a Y-Class locomotive out (quickly being a relative term... they max out at 65km/h. And they had to get spare paths to drive through. And this is in the dead middle of peak hour)
01:05:05  <Flygon> In the ent
01:05:06  <Flygon> end*
01:05:33  <Flygon> V/Line were furious. Metrol were furious. Centrol were furious. Metro were furious. Trains for New South Wales were furious.
01:05:34  <drac_boy> heh well "quick" has different definitions to different people you ask :P
01:05:47  <Flygon> All because one single train accidentally got routed to the wrong regional platform
01:05:54  <Flygon> (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Y129_VLine.jpg These're the Y-Class btw)
01:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so the other train was too long to fit both trains on the platform?
01:06:09  <Flygon> Eddi: Wrong gauge
01:06:23  <Flygon> Victoria uses 1600mm, New South Wales uses 1435mm
01:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that matter?
01:06:48  <Flygon> And Southern Cross has two Dual-Gauge platforms. The other dual-gauge platform was occupied.
01:06:57  <drac_boy> eddi...dual-gauge does not always cover an entire station for cost reasons as I recall
01:08:32  <Flygon> Not just cost reasons
01:08:35  <drac_boy> even then in europe (I know this is unrelated) there used to be some stations that for example if there was 3 separate platform tracks .. first one would only have 1500vdc, third one only had 11000vac, and the middle one had special signals re being switchable-voltage one (probably treated as a nonstop routing too)
01:08:38  <Flygon> It makes designing points a pita
01:08:42  <Flygon> And imposes speed limits for the DG half
01:08:56  <Flygon> Er, for the BG half
01:09:08  <Flygon> But, yeah
01:09:23  <Flygon> Crap like this is why Victorians want the entire state to be SGized already
01:09:53  <drac_boy> flygon heh about points .. I know theres one station that had two tracks but in an interesting design only one was dualgauge so it could sometimes make for funny looking operation where eg train leaves platform 2 .. cross over to track 1 for only one hundred meters .. then cross back to track 2 to get to the immediate mainline just so it can stay on its own gauge
01:10:05  <Flygon> An entire portion of the busiest regional railway station in the country shouldn't be disabled because someone accidentally pressed the wrong button
01:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i know that Brenner station had (or still has) non-switchable voltage up to the middle of the platform. so the engine has to turn off power on the way into the station, run powerless to the end, and be pulled out by shunters
01:10:39  <Flygon> (I note btw, that the only reason V/Line would've sent a Y instead of an N is due to all their Ns being busy with peak hour duties)
01:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Brenner being the border station between austria and italy
01:11:04  <Flygon> (the Ys are only spare surplus in peak due to being so pathetically weak in the modern context)
01:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the highest point of the mountainous route
01:12:12  <drac_boy> eddi .. heh well there was a switzerland (I believe it was the standard gauge side) train depot that a certain small fleet of emu's used .. well now the problem is it was wrong voltage .. but in a twist of fate most of the approaching track is downhill sloped .. so the emu in question simply would coast into the depot .. then after done one of the depot shunter (looks bit like the Kof II but not exactly one) would push it back uphill out of the way
01:12:50  <drac_boy> flygon .. were the Y the ones that always never could get much of any trains up to any kind of speeds? or thats what I kinda recall from our chats before
01:14:26  <Flygon> The Ys were designed for low use branchlines
01:14:39  <Flygon> Cheap to run, and the branchlines rarely had speed limits over 65km/h
01:14:54  <Flygon> As soon as they built up a big fleet of Ys the branchlines began shutting down
01:15:21  <Flygon> So VR were suddenly left with a lot of 640hp locos that couldn't break over 65km/h
01:15:36  <drac_boy> aha .. yeah I think I can see the resemblence .. there were some usa trains that were happy working slow but as soon as you tried kick them (re speed) they got horrible about it
01:15:39  <Flygon> They tried to repurpose them for mainline duties but... that ended badly. Passengers despised them
01:15:47  <Flygon> (they were built in the 60s-70s)
01:16:19  <Flygon> So, they all got cascaded down to freight as additional horsepower. Which they actually did a decent job as
01:16:40  <drac_boy> flygon oh btw it may sound weird but for a while on a particular older commuter railroad they sometimes only had one EMD E unit for a train and this was just about enough to run headend power but left little for traction purpose so they usually would just run one of their freight locomotive for traction .. now the thing is these were geared for only like 60-70kph maximum...
01:16:48  <Flygon> And at least one got regeared for 90km/h as a commissioners loco (that is... one that's driven by the railway commissioner to dawdle about the network. No need to haul anything)
01:17:15  <drac_boy> but it at least helped that even if they were slow .. the station lengths were very close together and these slow thing could really get up to full speed quite fast .. so the normal schedule wasn't too hard to follow
01:17:23  * Flygon nod
01:17:58  <Flygon> (the Ys that are still in existances are just used for shunting. They're too slow and weak to be useful for freight)
01:18:03  <drac_boy> probably helped that there was no food service .. could you imagine trying to not spill your drinks every time the train threatened to take off like a kangaroo :)
01:18:07  <Flygon> (and yet the Ts still keep going)
01:18:14  <Flygon> Cup holders xP
01:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard of food service on commuter trains
01:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a thing that happens in america?
01:19:36  <Flygon> (http://www.australiansteam.com/vic/y112.jpg The oldest serving locomotive in Victoria is Y112... different class, just the same letter. VR liked to reuse class letters xP)
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01:21:49  <drac_boy> eddi well some lines would have basic coldbar service .. this usually died out during the ever-ongoing price cuts in 1960-1970's tho
01:22:08  <drac_boy> although the "amfleet" named amtrak trains did have a bit of unusual exception
01:22:16  <Flygon> (https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5347/9357611218_30fea920bd_b.jpg This'd be the weakest VR locomotive I could possibly find (that isn't from the 1850s xP)
01:22:28  <Flygon> 150hp, 20km/h max. Diesel-Hydralic Shunter
01:22:56  <drac_boy> actually I kinda like that sort of thing .. especially for to move one wagon around cheaply with just a single man needed :)
01:23:06  <drac_boy> and btw sorry about this but I kinda need to go for now..maybe talk more another time :-s
01:23:11  <Flygon> Currently used as a Steamrail Victoria shunter
01:23:12  <Flygon> Have fun!
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01:24:09  <Flygon> https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamrail/6856245098/in/album-72157629268389204/ Kind of odd seeing Steamrail Victoria's pair of these hauling stuff around
01:24:21  <Flygon> Even FREAKIER to realize the steam locomotive it's hauling is about the same age as it
01:24:40  <Flygon> There's a reason the R-class are such good steam locos. They're the last of their kind x.x
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01:25:52  <Flygon> Oh, I was wrong
01:25:57  <Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/VR_RT20.JPG THESE are the weakest machines VR ran...
01:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> in our local branch of the DB Museum, they have a battery powered shunter
01:28:12  <Flygon> Battery powered shunter?
01:28:13  <Flygon> Yowee O_o
01:28:33  <Flygon> Do they just swap the batteries over at a specific point and charge the batteries constantly on cycle?
01:28:41  <Flygon> Or do they plug the loco itself in?
01:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they probably plug it in
01:29:24  <Flygon> Gotcha
01:29:36  <Flygon> I do reckon battery is actually extremely suitable for EMU use...
01:29:38  <Flygon> The question is
01:29:51  <Flygon> Would the companies be willing to convert stations into battery exchange points?
01:30:05  <Flygon> Say, you're going from Melbourne to Echuca... good 250-300km long trip
01:30:31  <Flygon> For two of the stops, the EMU parks, and gets it's batteries swapped over automatically by hardware under the railway station platform
01:30:35  <Flygon> So it never runs out of charge
01:30:43  <Flygon> Akin to a steam locomotive being given more water...
01:30:52  <Flygon> And such a process wouldn't be very slow, either. It'd be quick
01:30:57  <Flygon> Why has nobody designed this?
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01:31:21  <Flygon> It'd be cheaper than electrifying, while offering most of the benefits...
01:34:43  <Eddi|zuHause> germany had some battery powered railcars operating branch lines
01:35:16  <sim-al2> Japan has a battery EMU with overhead wire charging
01:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i wondered a while back why that isn't more common
01:35:59  <sim-al2> Cost I suppose, a diesel car is pretty flexible
01:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of electric/diesel hybrids, do electric/battery hybrids
01:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> most lines nowadays are under wire at least on one end
01:37:02  <sim-al2> I assume the train can run on overhead normally, but the station segment on the line is only the length of the platform
01:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, just schedule an hour of waiting time after each trip to recharge
01:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or so.
01:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't quite know why battery service was discontinued (besides of age of vehicles)
01:40:07  <sim-al2> I bet flexiblilty would be a factor, you could fuel up a DMU and send it somewhere else as a (slowish) express train
01:41:08  <sim-al2> This is the Japanese unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV-E301_series
01:42:46  <sim-al2> 25 km battery run
01:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the german railcars had longer range, i think
01:44:23  <sim-al2> I don't know what the actual range is, one article implied at least 50km
01:44:47  <sim-al2> Also this one has air conditioning and the other nice things
01:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> this is a very old one: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittfeld-Akkumulatortriebwagen
01:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and this a more modern one https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_ETA_150
01:46:53  <sim-al2> The nose is almost like a Crocidile locomotive, but then it's compartments behind it
01:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it says range 300km on that last one
01:47:16  <sim-al2> At slow speed maybe
01:47:56  <sim-al2> Pretty long life though
01:48:19  <Flygon> According to some friends in another channel
01:48:26  <Flygon> Main thing preventing hotswapping batteries is mechanical wear
01:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> of the electrical contacts, probably
01:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> batteries have the problem of being really heavy
01:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> for very little energy stored
01:49:56  <sim-al2> Hanging an engine is not that light either :)
01:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you still need an engine :p
01:50:17  <sim-al2> Fuel though, is damn good on energy density
01:50:30  <sim-al2> A little electric motor doesn't have to be heavy anymore
01:51:54  <Flygon> Friends also point out that Aussie environment means strong aircons...
01:52:00  <Flygon> You'd need backup Diesel for hot days
01:52:11  <sim-al2> I guess the question is whether battery maintanence or engine mainanence costs more. The way I see it, diesel engines will only get more and more expensive...
01:52:42  <sim-al2> I suppose it can be done, the Aussie DMUs already have aux engines anyway
01:52:52  <sim-al2> For some reason...
01:53:49  <Flygon> aux engines?
01:53:54  <Flygon> I don't know about New South Wales, but
01:54:11  <Flygon> The VLocity series in Victoria has two Diesel engines per carriages
01:54:22  <Flygon> Only one at a time can actually power the hydralic transmission
01:54:35  <sim-al2> NSW Hunters: An auxiliary 150 kW Cummins 6ISBe-G1 diesel engine drives a Newage Stamford UCI274H alternator to supply power for the air conditioning and lighting.
01:54:58  <Flygon> iirc, there's also an electric motor per carriage too. But I forgot if that's a silly rumor, or proof that the VLos are powered by raw overkill
01:55:01  <Flygon> Ahhhh
01:55:12  <Flygon> NSW Hunters are in the same family as the VLocities! They're siblings :3
01:55:27  <Flygon> The parent being the Xplorer/Endeavor series
01:55:39  <sim-al2> I don't see what an electric motor would do unless they have battery jog
01:55:53  <Flygon> Yes, I'm serious about there being railway geneology
01:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> extra power for train heating/electricity is not that uncommon i believe
01:56:00  <sim-al2> Yeah, all they have the same QSK19 and aux engine
01:56:08  <Flygon> sim: They're reportedly battery powered
01:56:14  <sim-al2> In 'Merica, we steal it from the locomotive
01:56:15  <Flygon> But... again, uncomfirmed
01:56:35  <Flygon> I don't have the detailed technical specs on me, and my locomotive book both only does Aussie locomotives
01:56:43  <Flygon> And it only covers the 1850s to 1990s
01:56:46  <sim-al2> Some US locomotives were built with the ability to power a motor from the batteries for shop moves
01:57:28  <sim-al2> Also quite a few units with hydraulic transmissions (the turbine powered things) had an electric motor so they could run into Grand Central Terminal on 3rd rail
01:58:09  <Flygon> Oh, I've been grossly misinformed and confused
01:58:15  <Flygon> The VLos do still have just one motor per carriage
01:58:21  <Flygon> Just big 750hp ones
01:58:28  <sim-al2> Yeah, I was going to ask where they shoved another :)
01:58:31  <Flygon> Where the hell did I get told they had two motors per carriage...
01:58:42  <sim-al2> Lots of DMUs do, just not hugenormous ones
01:58:44  <Flygon> Still, they're grossly overkill
01:58:56  <Flygon> They're actually capable of out-accelerating a fair bit of the electric fleet here
01:59:27  <sim-al2> Nah, if you want to get up to 160km/h with a carriage that meets safety and comfort standards, that's a good thing to have
01:59:51  <sim-al2> I wonder how much fuel they use though, compared to the locomotive trains
02:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the hugenotts have engines now?
02:00:39  <Flygon> sim: They suck more fuel than anyone in the industry wants to admit
02:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> man, these 18th century french protestant refugees are ressourceful :p
02:00:45  <Flygon> They were designed as regional HSTs
02:00:56  <Flygon> But they're currently being used as 160km/h interurbans instead
02:01:10  <sim-al2> Well they wanted a diesel train with electric performance...
02:01:19  <Flygon> Reportedly, in testing, the VLo units hit 210-225km/h for stress testing... so
02:01:26  <sim-al2> Dammmmmnnnnnn
02:01:36  <Flygon> I would personally consider them HSTs. The transmission is expicitly designed for 200km/h
02:01:43  <Flygon> But the railway related beaurocracy here is bloody nuts
02:02:10  <Flygon> 160 was chosen as to not require in-cab signalling. Any faster was deemed unsafe because they were worried drivers wouldn't see the signals
02:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> trains have to be able to run comfortably at 110% of max speed
02:02:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so if they're designed for 200, they must be able to test run at 220
02:02:44  <Flygon> And by 160 I mean, they're still allowed 10% overspeed. A late VLo running 177km/h is not uncommon. But the computer will emergency brake if it's going ay faster.
02:02:51  <sim-al2> That's a mechanical thing though, the limits choose allow a safery margin
02:02:52  <Flygon> And, Eddi has a point
02:03:12  <Flygon> Given how old the XPT is... and that the XPT is being retired and replaced
02:03:21  <sim-al2> Amtrak specs all the equipment at 135 mph for extra margin
02:03:54  <sim-al2> Wow 177? That's a big margin
02:03:55  <Flygon> My ideal XPT replacement would just be a souped up VLocity built for 220km/h... you'd need to fix up a few lines, allow for in-cab signalling, and get such a concept past the beaurocracy
02:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 135*1.6
02:04:17  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 216
02:04:31  <Flygon> But even if the DMU wouldn't be allowed to hit it's real top speed, it's a reasonable futureproofing to design for. And given it'd be parts (and presumably couplable) to the VLocity, Hunter, and Xplorer series anyway...
02:04:37  <Flygon> But, I'm armcharing the hell out of this
02:05:43  <Flygon> In the end, I'd just use the VLocity as a derivative for sheer convenience
02:06:07  <sim-al2> Trust me, if you don't want them I would take them
02:06:51  <Flygon> Bonus points that the VLo has another sibling class running about in Western Australia explicitly designed for 200km/h (the current WA Prospector DMU units). The only real differences between both sets is the internal seating arrangements, catering, and the computers having different auto-emergency brake speeds
02:07:21  <sim-al2> Sounds like you guys have the basis for the One True DMU
02:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you know that in civilized countries, trains run at scheduled 300km/h...
02:08:36  <sim-al2> They also didn't spend the money to have a complete highway network instead
02:08:45  <Flygon> Eddi: Believe me, most of the population here DOES want an interstate HST
02:08:48  <Flygon> An electric one
02:09:05  <Flygon> But... we've instead become ridiculously good at building Diesel HSTs in a country that doesn't even have HST infrastructure
02:09:24  <Flygon> Well, I mean... we have the infrastructure. The beaurocrats just pretend we don't. xP
02:10:07  <Wolf01> 'night
02:10:08  <sim-al2> That would great here, the one HST project under way right now is in Florida
02:10:10  <sim-al2> night
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02:10:51  <Flygon> Night Wo- dammit
02:11:03  <Flygon> sim: What about the California HST?
02:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: unrelated, but what happened to the plan to destry half the barrier reef to expand coal mining?
02:11:30  <sim-al2> Ok perhaps, but there's still room for a sneak attack to kill it
02:11:49  <Flygon> (the real problem is... the two most politically popular HST lines are also the two hardest to build. Because you'd be dealing with building through the middle of a mountain range for both of them)
02:11:57  <Flygon> Eddi: I wish I knew
02:12:03  <Flygon> sim: True =/
02:12:04  <sim-al2> Assuming that California doesn't start cutting everything to stay afloat
02:12:45  <Flygon> The EASIEST HST line to build is Melbourne-Adelaide. The Melbourne-Ballarat portion has already been RFRified (meaning, HSR but we limit the speed to 160km/h because lol)
02:12:49  <sim-al2> There's some speed upgrade programs, but those are improvements to existing services
02:12:51  <Flygon> But nobody likes Adelaide
02:13:08  <Flygon> And there's railway gauge problems to boot...
02:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: so, the country is 95% flat desert, and they want to build the HSTs exactly at the 5% mountains?
02:13:14  <sim-al2> Lol, South Australia, the state no one knows about
02:13:28  <Flygon> Eddi: Our two biggest metropolises are integrated into the mountains
02:13:29  <Flygon> In fact
02:13:34  <sim-al2> 90% of the population is sane and lives on the coast
02:13:41  <Flygon> Sydney's actually hit a serious urban growth barrier problem because of their mountains
02:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: isn't like singapore the size of half of sydney, while having more population than all of australia combined?
02:14:34  <Flygon> But... yeah. Melbourne-Adelaide is easy. Most of the existing alignment is straight as hell. Just whack in an extra pair of tracks adjacent... the only real problems after that
02:14:45  <sim-al2> This is the Florida HST locomotive: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3860/15167931610_3493ddf87c_b.jpg
02:16:35  <Flygon> Are the Bacchus Marsh horseshoe curve (but the town'd probably be bypassed anyay), Adelaide Hills (which's... a mountain range. An incredibly frustrating one), gauge differences (which can be eliminated sorta by converting the Ballarat line to SG anyway (thus giving Ballan a HST stop instead), giving Ballarat a dedicated SG metro service, and extending the BG urban line to Bacchus Marsh), and the fact that despite it being t
02:16:36  <Flygon> he single easiest HST line to build, there'd be no real political goodwill for it because most of the seats it goes through are safe seats.
02:16:45  <sim-al2> I think, I just found something that shows a different design, but that model is from Siemens and the other one isn't
02:17:17  <Flygon> And from a federal perspective, only benefits primarially Victorian townships (which can be seen as disproportionately benefiting Victoria)... because any alignment you take barely has any towns in South Australia bar Adelaide
02:17:27  <Flygon> Because the entire population of South Australia lives in Adelaide...
02:17:40  <sim-al2> Heh
02:17:45  <Flygon> sim: Locomotive hauled?
02:17:53  <sim-al2> Yes, HST style
02:18:21  <sim-al2> One at each end
02:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "safe seats" is the single biggest issue with majority voting systems...
02:18:54  <sim-al2> Something something US politics
02:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i might be biased, but i really like the german hybrid voting system
02:19:36  <sim-al2> wow 79 confirmed orders now from various agencies
02:19:42  <sim-al2> http://www.mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000810&lang=en&id=8223&action=shownews
02:20:16  <Flygon> sim: I admit I'm not a huge fan of locomotive HSTs
02:20:33  <Flygon> But knowing how utterly, and please e