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Log for #openttd on 25th November 2015:
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00:02:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know any context to that. but some train brakes need stored pressure to work, and if that was unloaded by an interruption, of a previous brake attempt, they might not work (immediately)
00:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> s/of/or/
00:03:00  <sim-al2> Even an emergency application won't drain the system, only the control pipe
00:03:21  <sim-al2> And a reduction in the auxillary reservoirs of course
00:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> there might also be secondary failures at play. like blocking of the air connection
00:08:14  <glx> https://twitter.com/SUDRail_Norm/status/657058806510329856
00:08:21  <sim-al2> I missed the part before now, what is the context here?
00:08:29  <glx> it needed 20km and a hill
00:09:32  <glx> then it slowed enough so the driver could jump out of it and put blocks between rail and wheel to prevent the train to move in the other way
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00:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it could also be that the controls from the cab weren't propagated to the actual device it should engage, but i'd have expected that going to the other cab would solve that
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00:11:57  <glx> emergency brake didn't worked at all
00:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the train was probably lucky that it had 20km free
00:12:27  <sim-al2> A blockage in brake pipe (i.e. control valve) seems less likely on a EMU train than say, a locomotive-hauled train
00:13:07  <sim-al2> No electric braking?
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00:14:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd also usually have two or three independent braking systems onboard, plus the ability to get the engine to go "backwards"
00:15:02  <Flygon> Electric Braking works hand-in-hand with Air Braking
00:15:07  <Flygon> Assuming you mean rheostatic
00:15:15  <sim-al2> Or regenerative...
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00:16:06  <sim-al2> I assume that these modern MU trains have combined controls (i.e. brake handle controls air and electric)
00:16:30  <drac_boy> sorry didn't meant to leave so shortly...but anyhow started with the meat then soon the premade bread dough ... then some brown rice .. so ah yeah .. one hour supper heh :->
00:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that kinda defies the term "independent"
00:17:26  <sim-al2> Eh, I've seen this "independent" references, but I suspect that they come from media sources or others...
00:17:33  <drac_boy> sim-a12 I always wondered about some of the "desk" controls .. for me I dunno if I'm old fashioned or not but I've always prefer the separate throttle/air (other than for trams with their deadman-equipped combo handlebar)
00:18:11  <sim-al2> Plenty of rolling stock now has rolling stock where the throttle and brake control are on the same handle, works better for MU trains obviously
00:18:41  <drac_boy> hm say I forgot if theres a proper term but as I recall you had to push down the arm then turn it to get effect .. and if you ever let your weight up or anything it'll kick in the full emergency brakes
00:19:04  <sim-al2> Desk doesn't require combined controls though, see modern US locomotives with throttle, train air and independent (locomotive consist) brake controls
00:19:16  <sim-al2> Deadman handle probably
00:19:47  <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah but this one isn't a dedicated one..I just wish I could remember the term they used for it (especially on the pre-PPC trams)
00:20:02  <sim-al2> Some equipment used a pedal instead
00:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i heard that deadman thingies are being phased out
00:20:17  <glx> seems the driver switched to emergency mode right before the collision
00:20:36  <sim-al2> Yeah, many countries use alerters of some variety now, they go off after a period of time
00:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> because studies showed that they had to be used so reflexively that the drivers literally could operate them in their sleep
00:20:59  <glx> then the emergency button in the other cab was pressed too
00:21:20  <sim-al2> Although France at least has a combined variety, the pedal has to be held down, but let up and pressed again after a period of time
00:22:12  <drac_boy> eddi also pedals were sometimes completely hated by companies themself because some drivers had too much habit of simply plopping their lunchbag (or workbag in case of steam era crews) onto the floor over pedal neutralizing its real use
00:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so the effect to prevent sleeping and cause attention was nonexistent
00:22:30  <drac_boy> at least usa-wise anyhow
00:22:39  <sim-al2> In the US there was a rear-end collision between two freight trains where the colliding train's crew seems to have both fallen asleep, but the engineer was still hitting the alerter reset every so often...
00:23:36  <glx> so nice to let them finish their sleep
00:23:53  <sim-al2> Yeah, the pedals in particular weren't that hard to defeat, at least without a system to require another action
00:23:58  <drac_boy> sim-a12 unrelated but I recall one story where a new fireman mentioned that when he finally looked to the right the engineer was completely fast asleep .. he was starting to wonder about pulling the whistle as they were getting pretty close to a road crossing when suddenly the engineer woke up for a second, pulled the whistle, then went back to sleep
00:24:22  <drac_boy> fireman quipped that the engineer must had gone over this route a thousand time that he could whistle every crossing in his sleep (which the engineer actually did)
00:24:39  <sim-al2> I've read stories like that too
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00:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> there was an incident a few years ago where a railcar went off without driver, and only stopped at the other end of the line some 20km later
00:25:40  <sim-al2> "opps"
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00:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there were no signals inbetween that could have stopped it, and all the road crossings were automatically engaged. so it had no security implications
00:27:13  <drac_boy> oh and btw found a photo https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Controls_of_1927_tram_in_Buenos_Aires%2C_Argentina_%2815321349543%29.jpg/640px-Controls_of_1927_tram_in_Buenos_Aires%2C_Argentina_%2815321349543%29.jpg that sort of throttle/deadman combo (the hingle is noticeable too) is what I often see on older trams here
00:27:59  <sim-al2> They were almost universal in traction (interurbans, trams, and subways used very similar equipment for many years)
00:28:19  <drac_boy> seem some other photos also show a separate brake bar too so I guess there were the triple deadman/throttle/brake and separate deadman/throttle + brake setups ... but I've not seen the latter kind personally tho
00:28:30  <sim-al2> That really could be any 1910-1930's tram/interurban car
00:28:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i would have expected the brake to be the handle with the blue tube running out of it on the right
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00:29:03  <sim-al2> I think it is, next to the handbrake
00:29:10  <drac_boy> eddi yeah thats the separate one indeed
00:30:19  <sim-al2> Interestingly, the trams/interurbans in US had more advanced brake technology than the steam railroads did
00:30:49  <drac_boy> oh and sim-a12/eddi quick question as we're almost there .. is the "pull back for throttle, push forward for brake" kind of single desk handle a typical configuration with re highspeed sets?
00:31:13  <sim-al2> Sometimes it is
00:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what you're talking about
00:32:12  <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh well electric started with trams and the initial mainline locomotives sometimes were pretty much based off the same technology till they progressed at their own level .. or thats what I recall from some of the usa locomotives
00:33:25  <sim-al2> Yeah, I was amused to see that graduated release appeared around at least 1906, if not before, and yet still isn't universal
00:34:24  <drac_boy> sim-a12 ah yeah brakes is an interesting history in itself
00:35:07  <sim-al2> I've been looking, appearently the Shinksansen still have seperate brake handles, and so do the European high-speed trains
00:36:14  <sim-al2> Even the new N700s http://toretabi.com/train/images/train_03/pht_05.jpg
00:36:32  <drac_boy> sim-a12 there is also the thing where some of the 4-4-2 and similar small big-drivers steam locomotives often only had good brakes on the tender and perhaps the trailing/pony axles so one unofficial way to bring them down a long grade (even train inspectors knew it was not in the book but they turned a blind eye to it anyway) always was to set the throttle slightly in reverse and keep up a modest fire going
00:36:55  <drac_boy> talk about using backcompression to keep speed in check as there was not enough brakepad power otherwise
00:37:23  <sim-al2> I've seen that, appearently it's fine as long as pressure to the cylinders is not too high
00:38:03  <drac_boy> and even one engineer quipped "I always set it into the little hole" when asked how he made station stops .. theres of course no such thing as "little hole" .. he actually meant he always dumped emergency brakes!
00:38:17  <drac_boy> sometimes you got to wonder about these particular little-and-fast steamers :)
00:38:44  <sim-al2> That might work on a commuter train... the ride though must have been pretty rough
00:38:51  <drac_boy> this wasn't commuter :)
00:39:20  <sim-al2> Stopping downhill? 0.o
00:39:53  <drac_boy> at least later the boiler got bigger (to sustain longer lightweight consists and ever-higher speeds) so eventually the modern 4-4-4's and so had no problem being fully equipped on all roller bearing axles with air brakes
00:40:49  <sim-al2> I've been reading through a book in the library, it specifices a lot of cool brake information, but the brake ratios have been pretty high almost from the beginning, 150% in emergency is possible (and results in a very hard stop)
00:41:11  <drac_boy> this one http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/Foto_Loco_Vere/Hiawatha%204-4-2.jpg wouldn't have any problem using brakes in normal way as beside it was a bit heavy
00:41:36  <drac_boy> they literally could do "a mile a minute" easily (and if late? well umm don't ask how fast she'll go!)
00:42:01  <sim-al2> well, 60mph=1mile/minute
00:42:12  <drac_boy> sim-a12 one of the funny thing about these particular trains is that the ads said "as fast and swift as an arrow" or something to that effect
00:42:30  <drac_boy> back then in the 1930's that was probably believeable :)
00:43:07  <sim-al2> Compared to most other things, sustained speeds like that definetly would be good
00:44:55  <drac_boy> ah looks like the schedules for the later larger version (same streamlining look tho) was 160kph (with stop-go average speed being 130kph)
00:45:02  <drac_boy> thats quite fast :)
00:45:24  <drac_boy> of course everything got slowed down rapidly due to traffic crunch in 1940+
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00:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> all express steam engines i know that used B-coupling were discontinued quickly because of too low TE
00:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> which lead to 2'C1' being THE wheel arrangement for this type of engine
00:46:26  <drac_boy> well it could depend on the trains themself tho .. canada actually used the 4-4-2 to quite good effect on short loads along the london<>quebeccity network
00:47:14  <drac_boy> but if you wanted to handle say a heavy newyork to boston load then yeah "just" 3 coaches would be too insufficent
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00:51:45  <sim-al2> On the big limited trains, even 4-6-2 wasn't enough, with 4-6-4 and even 4-8-4 appearing before the end
00:52:17  <drac_boy> hm looks like even five coaches over short distance wasn't hard on them http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/croarchives/2013/maycro/maycp.15.jpg
00:52:37  <drac_boy> but then again having a relatively level land probably helped
00:53:00  <drac_boy> new york partially had to get their very huige 4-8-4 because some part of their route involved close to 2% grades
00:53:26  <sim-al2> Yeah, level routes probably could go even longer easily, but once it gets hilly...
00:54:08  <drac_boy> sim-a12 and this is what the "huge" nyc 4-8-4 looked like eventually http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/nycr6001.jpg and look at where the bell had to go because the boiler was pushing the track gauge clearance :P
00:54:20  <drac_boy> (hint: look down, not up)
00:55:33  <sim-al2> Got to put it somewhere :)
00:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the germans built a 2'Do1' steam engine
00:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> with 4 individually driven axles instead of coupled axles
00:56:50  <sim-al2> That sounds complex...
00:58:29  <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah .. still .. it was a massive thing ;)
00:58:40  <drac_boy> killed early due to diesels tho
01:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently i misremembered, it was 1'Do1' http://schneider-mayenfisch.com/drg_lokomotiven_19_1001.htm
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01:03:27  <drac_boy> eddi ahh I remember seeing that before..one sec..
01:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it seems to have rather small wheels for such a fast engine
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01:08:20  <drac_boy> nevermind might look for it tomorrow
01:08:24  <drac_boy> and hmm yeah maybe
01:08:31  <drac_boy> either way going for now..have fun sim-a12 ;)
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01:43:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:52:52  <Flygon_> sim-al2: Seeing you two discuss how the wheel arrangements just got bigger and bigger..
01:53:03  <Flygon_> I'm surprised more railways didn't just make artic. lcoos
01:53:06  <Flygon_> locos*
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01:53:58  <Flygon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_AD60_class_locomotive Like this type
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02:03:46  <Flygon> They were pretty speedy, too
02:03:49  <Flygon> Despite being artic.
02:05:57  <sim-al2> There were a number of articulated freight engines, both Mallet and simple
02:07:21  <sim-al2> While not articulated, there was this monster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_T1
02:09:51  <Flygon> Ooh
02:09:52  <Flygon> Yes
02:09:58  <Flygon> I am so disappointed none were preserved
02:10:10  <Flygon> If only to see if it truly was the Shinkansen before Shinkansens existed
02:10:32  <Flygon> That, and
02:10:39  <Flygon> It would've been nice for them to live long enough
02:10:51  <Flygon> To be converted to 4-8-4, instead of 4-4-4-4
02:12:47  <Flygon> Huh
02:12:52  <Flygon> There's a group building a replica...
02:12:58  <Flygon> I wonder if they'll go 4-4-4-4 or 4-8-4...
02:13:01  <Flygon> Because, y'know
02:13:03  <Flygon> Wheelslip issues
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02:14:18  <Flygon> I mean...
02:14:20  <Flygon> "The T-1 4-4-4-4 had such power that the engineer, if not careful on the throttle, could have violent wheel slip at 100 miles per hour, causing damage to the poppet valves"
02:14:35  <Flygon> There's clearly some design issues that require some modifications when building a modern one x.x
02:15:49  <sim-al2> That's one of the difficult things with steam locomotives, the idlers are needed to keep axle load down but decreasing the weight on the drivers makes the low factor of adhesion even worse
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02:18:50  <Flygon> Wasn't the only reason they went with two separate drivers because WWII required them to use crap steel?
02:19:17  <Flygon> Given there isn't a WWII going on atm, they could probably get the drawbars made out of tungsten if they wanted to xP
02:20:07  <sim-al2> Uh no, these were possibly some of the most advanced steamers ever built, the 2 sets of drivers were for good performance at high speeds, with some very, very complex camshaft valve gear
02:22:11  <Flygon> Oh O_o
02:22:13  <Flygon> Alright
02:22:31  <sim-al2> Drawbar strength is usually limited so that it breaks first and not other things, like the PRR found out with wooden boxcars
02:22:44  <Flygon> I just assumed it was because poor quality steel meant they couldn't build a strong enough drawbar when designing for a 4-8-4 arrangement
02:22:51  <Flygon> Whereas 4-4-4-4 is far less stressful because, y'know
02:24:17  <sim-al2> Plenty of steam locomotives were built during the war, and although probably not as quality steel, they were a priority production item
02:24:42  <sim-al2> The 4-4-4-4 production run happened after the war ended
02:24:58  <Flygon> Hmm
02:24:59  <Flygon> Alright
02:26:03  <sim-al2> Actually there was a material problem, the poppet valves used in the valve gear weren't strong enough for the demands required of them and needed replacement often
02:27:32  <Flygon> That might be it
02:27:38  <Flygon> It has been a while since I looked into it, note x.x
02:28:19  <sim-al2> But that was more of a problem with complex valvegear, which is why many locomotives still had simplier sliding types
02:31:53  <sim-al2> Basically the 4-4-4-4 is the one of the ultimate expressions of the Superpower steam locomotives of the 1930s, they measured 6500hp in a running tests, which puts it among the most powerful ever built
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02:56:35  <Flygon> sim-al2: And I thougth Heavy Harry hitting 3500-4000hp was overkill x.x
02:57:36  <Flygon> http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/harry/h220slv.jpg When you mash British and American style engineering together, you get this thing @_@
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03:02:02  <Flygon> I forgot if the T1 was in the 2CC set or not...
03:02:10  <Flygon> Prolly isn't set for 225km/h either way <_>
03:02:39  <sim-al2> Running costs did the big ones in, although some like the 4-8-8-4 "Big Boys" earned their keep in service, espeically during WWII
03:04:24  * Flygon nod
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03:04:35  <Flygon> Harry lasted from the late 30s to around 1956ish here...
03:04:46  <Flygon> Probably due to how absurdly overpowered it was
03:05:22  <Flygon> Hell, even publications locally in the 1950s would say "Australia's Best/Most Powerful/Whatever Locomotive". Despite it being over 15 years old and stuck in the middle of the Diesel-Electric revolution.
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03:07:57  <Flygon> Just kind of baffling that they designed Australia's single most useful freight locomotive of the era while trying to design an express passenger locomotive
03:08:08  <Flygon> They designed it for the opposite purpose what it was best at!!
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03:09:24  <sim-al2> With enough pulling power, a big express locomotive easily makes a decent fast freight locomotive too, universal locomotives have been around for a long time
03:11:01  <Flygon> "Enough pulling power"
03:11:19  <Flygon> They built the most powerful non-articulated locomotive in Australia until the NR-Class finally overtook it
03:11:21  <Flygon> In 1995.
03:11:38  <sim-al2> 4-8-4 will do it, especially with the axle load limits
03:11:55  * Flygon nod
03:12:08  <Flygon> I do note
03:12:12  <Flygon> That the axle load was so high
03:12:21  <Flygon> It was only actually allowed to run on one branchline
03:12:30  <Flygon> And it wasn't even the intended branchline
03:12:53  <sim-al2> Also I wonder if the need existed either, given that most of the railways bought diesels that could MU
03:12:54  <Flygon> Tho, nowadays, it could probably run on both it's 'intended' line, and the branchline it ended up running on
03:12:58  <Flygon> Gauge conversion permitting
03:13:10  <Flygon> It was built in the 1930s. Diesels weren't a thing.
03:13:17  <Flygon> Though, I want to note
03:13:30  <Flygon> Later VR steam locos got fitted with DMU capability
03:13:41  <sim-al2> Right, but obviously either money was lacking or the need wasn't great enough for serial production
03:13:50  <Flygon> The steam loco had to lead (because, y'know, the Diesel locomotives can't drive the steam locomotive), but otherwise...
03:14:04  <sim-al2> I'm sure that little WWII invasion threat didn't help
03:14:13  <Flygon> Yeah, WWII is what borked everything over
03:14:16  <Flygon> It's kind of frustrating
03:14:26  <Flygon> VR wanted to undergo a HUGE network renewal project
03:14:38  <Flygon> The H-Class was just part of it...
03:14:51  <Flygon> And instead they had 10-15 years of runnng their rollingstock down to the bone
03:15:24  <Flygon> Such as Freight Locomotives being forcibly made to run the Spirit of Progress streamliners...
03:15:44  <Flygon> (not that they didn't do half bad in keeping the schedule, but it's obviously not ideal)
03:16:01  <sim-al2> So in the US, EMD and the other manufacturers got a big boost out of replacing wornout steamers with their new designs
03:16:15  <Flygon> And when VR finally got the chance to undergo their biggest infrastructure renewal in the 1950s
03:16:58  <Flygon> Including electrifying a shitload of the network, and ordering a crapload of Steam and Diesel locos (they were still unsure about Diesel locos at the time. This's also why we have so many ridiculously modern steam locos running about today still).
03:17:05  <Flygon> And they went right on it.
03:17:27  <Flygon> I do note, part of the reason also that VR had to limit Diesel orders is because they only wanted AMERICAN Diesels
03:17:36  <Flygon> And they had limited USD available...
03:17:50  <Flygon> (Electric locos were English Electric, so, no currency problems there)
03:17:56  <Flygon> But...
03:18:00  <Flygon> They ran out of USD early
03:18:14  <Flygon> And then the Government/s cut the Operation Phoenix budget by 90%.
03:18:19  <sim-al2> I noticed that English Electric had some early success with South Australia/CR
03:18:20  <Flygon> Which kind of caught VR by surprise.
03:19:03  <Flygon> So VR were kind of stuck in stagnation from the 1950s to the 1990s simply due to the moment that should've made them an incredibly modern operator
03:19:17  <Flygon> Instead leaving them where they started
03:19:34  <Flygon> And the flow-on effects are STILL felt to this day
03:19:50  <Flygon> With V/Line having to keep 1930s era VR stock on-call, and other equipment shortages
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08:09:06  <Wolf01> hi o/
08:15:03  <__ln___>    |\
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09:15:05  <Wolf01> http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aynb6j8_460s.jpg
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09:37:27  <Flygon> Not sure if satire or real
09:42:18  <Wolf01> i hope it's satire
09:43:30  <Wolf01> but knowing the reality it might be real as well
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12:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure i miss a lot in xkcd...
12:16:18  <SpComb> all you need to explore it is a slow compiler :)
12:19:45  <planetmaker> well, there's more coins than in the immediate vicinity :D
12:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
12:21:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i got that far :p
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12:42:04  <planetmaker> hm, Elon Musk's volcanic lair...
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13:50:17  <Wolf01> i want to burn my eyes http://www.fantasiamodellismo.com/file/treni.htm
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13:54:48  <sim-al2> Not sure what decade that site was made
13:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> looks very 90s :)
13:55:17  <Wolf01> i think when clip art cd-roms were still in use
13:55:26  <sim-al2> The rotating pizza-texture arrow at the bottom seals it for me
13:55:41  <Wolf01> we really had that bad taste in the '90?
13:55:50  <sim-al2> Also: 2003-2006  -_-
13:56:23  <Wolf01> you mean the flash obscure age?
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13:56:45  <sim-al2> Yes, Geocities and the like allowed for some truely horrible design
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13:56:58  <sim-al2> At least this one doesn't have sound
13:57:26  <Wolf01> *luckily ^
13:58:51  <__ln___> it's not a 90s site, there's css in the source code.
14:00:15  <Wolf01> looking at the uppercase tags it might be frontpage, with a little hand touch for the most recent additions
14:01:39  <sim-al2> Every webpage editor should include a warning box when someone selects Comic Sans, asking them why they would ever do that
14:01:44  <Wolf01> the table in the center might be generated from dreamweaver or sameshit
14:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never used any of those programs
14:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i think my father (or maybe my uncle) had frontpage in the late 90s
14:03:05  <Wolf01> i used frontpage once, when i understood i needed to clean the shit by hand i started to use notepad (yes, the windows notepad)
14:03:41  <Wolf01> but at that time i did only some cd-rom interactive menus
14:05:01  <Wolf01> for websites i used notepad++, komodo edit, and now the most practical of the things: phpstorm
14:07:27  <Wolf01> uhm, i really need to switch to phpstorm license to the new plan, so 2 years at the price of one
14:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't done a lot of html... i don't remember what i used.
14:10:24  <Wolf01> ok, license plan renewed until april 2018
14:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you really use programs which you have to renew?
14:12:45  <Wolf01> no, i could use the version i purchased, but i like to get new updates every now and then
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14:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess i'll never know if i've seen everything/collected all coins
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14:56:03  <Wolf01> why do you abort my connection, software?
14:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> blame peer
14:58:49  <Wolf01> i would blame beer, but i don't drink alcohol
15:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that ever stop anybody?
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16:03:14  <Wolf01> o/
16:03:52  <__ln___> /|
16:04:22  <__ln___> /|\o
16:04:28  <Wolf01> you are off by 1 char, remove one _
16:04:31  <__ln___> okay, now it looks like a christmas tree
16:04:36  <Wolf01> ahah
16:04:46  *** __ln___ is now known as __ln__
16:04:52  <__ln__> admittedly that wasn't the initial goal
16:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the christmas tree is a bit one-sided
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16:10:16  <Alberth> wolf already provided the other side?
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16:28:35  <Wolf01> i don't want a christmas tree
16:32:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you terrorist!
16:32:46  <Wolf01> pfff
16:33:25  <Wolf01> i don't believe in cocacola made-up holidays
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17:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or is it cocacola-made up-holidays?
17:19:34  <Wolf01> feel free to fix my writing
17:21:38  <Wolf01> the grammar nazi me is asleep now
17:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that was more of a joke ;)
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18:38:15  <Wolf01> meh, i might need ships in factorio
18:39:22  <SikoR> hi guys i would use some of your helps in seting up a port forwarding at my router, can u be nice and help me?
18:40:18  <Wolf01> tell us the specific problem and we might help you :)
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18:40:35  <SikoR> i found this
18:40:36  <glx> usually google knows better
18:40:36  <SikoR> the default port is 3979, but you can change it to anything you like when you start a server. If you set up your own server behind a router, you need to forward both TCP and UDP on that port.
18:40:36  <SikoR>         Communication with the master-server works via port 3979 over UDP (inbound + outbound) and 3978 over UDP (outbound)
18:40:36  <SikoR>         If you are joining a server you do not need to forward any ports, as connections are outbound only.
18:40:48  <SikoR> that's the google
18:40:56  <frosch123> @ports
18:40:56  <DorpsGek> frosch123: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
18:41:06  <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/ottdports.png <- search for something like that in your routing settings
18:41:16  <SikoR> at my server nat>virtual server>custom
18:41:29  <SikoR> and now i stuck at names
18:42:06  <SikoR> external port start| external port end| protocl (udp/tcp)| internal port start
18:42:43  <glx> easy 3979 3979 TCP 3979
18:42:48  <SikoR> and remote IP i did set my pc to have a static ip adress when it connects to the router but where should i type that
18:42:51  <glx> and 3979 3797 UDP 3979
18:43:14  <SikoR> oh i thought it would be sth like that but that start and end just get me little bit unsure
18:43:35  <Wolf01> remote should be any ip, the internal one should be your pc static ip
18:43:47  <Wolf01> usually "any" is 0.0.0.0
18:44:09  <SikoR> so server ip adress is my pc ip and remote ip is just 0.0.0.0
18:44:21  <glx> yes
18:44:49  <Wolf01> btw, dinner
18:45:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27457 /trunk/src/lang (croatian.txt spanish.txt) (2015-11-25 19:45:12 +0100 )
18:45:23  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:24  <DorpsGek> croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:25  <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
18:45:26  <SikoR> thanks! that help a lot
18:45:59  <SikoR> bah remote is invalid
18:47:57  <SikoR> if that 0.0.0.0 is invalid should i change it to 0.0.0.1?
18:48:20  <SikoR> yeah that did the job
18:48:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably not right
18:49:41  <SikoR> but router doesn't accept 0.0.0.0 as valid remote host
18:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> are you sure you're in the right setup screen?
18:51:14  <SikoR> advanced setup->nat->virtual server(the one that have some presets for games feC&C AoE)->and i tried to custom
18:52:46  <SikoR> so i think it is correct directory
18:54:09  <SikoR> btw. does it matter if i use laptop to be my middleman between PC and router?
18:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> this might be for some bridge stuff, which would make an external server look like it's in the local network
18:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> try another setup screen, which reads like "port forwarding"
18:55:12  <SikoR> port triggering
18:55:15  <SikoR> port mapping
18:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> port mapping sounds good
18:56:22  <SikoR> there is some presets for aim talk and icq
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18:58:05  <SikoR> i got some trigger port start | end               <tcp/udp>open port start | end <tcp/udp>
18:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you want trigger
19:02:09  <SikoR> and port mapping not looking similar to anything where i can type that tcp udp 3979 ports
19:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> then you should study your router documentation
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19:06:49  <Terkhen> Hello
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19:08:44  <SikoR> i think that this first directory is OK but i didn't try to leave remote host blank
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19:09:56  <SikoR> 0.0.0.0 is invalid but if i leave it blank is OK.
19:12:30  <andythenorth> o/
19:14:07  <Wolf01> andy o/
19:14:10  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i was sure i suggested that, but i don't find it reading back
19:15:33  <SikoR> shit happens,
19:15:57  <SikoR> thanks ! u did good job i think it's good atm
19:33:31  <SikoR> next problem just cosmetics
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19:34:24  <SikoR> i mean if i use my laptop as a bridge/middleman between router and pc it's not working
19:35:28  <SikoR> if i start a serwer at laptop i can join from pc but not in the other way
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19:36:00  <SikoR> is it easy to fix?
19:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause> we certainly do not know how you set up your "bridge"
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19:42:28  <SikoR> so i should search google for port forwarding bridge windows or there is any words more concrete that will help too
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19:45:21  <Eddi|zuHause> "Turkish protesters who wanted to hit the russian consulate with eggs hit the dutch consulate instead. they confused the flags"
19:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> SikoR: there are two very distinct ways how to "bridge" networks
19:47:00  <Eddi|zuHause> SikoR: one is an actual bridge (intermediate just blindly forwards packets both ways), and the other is a staged network (intermediate acts as a router/firewall and selectively forwards packets)
19:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on what you want, the setup processes will be completely different
19:49:59  <Wolf01> http://hackaday.com/2015/11/24/building-the-infinite-matrix-of-tamagotchis/ what
19:52:18  <SikoR> ok so it's a hard work.
19:52:47  <andythenorth> where is cat?
19:53:01  <Wolf01> in the matrix, it seem
19:53:05  <Eddi|zuHause> SikoR: it's mostly a small number of clicks, but you need to know what exactly you want to know which clicks are the right ones
19:53:18  <Eddi|zuHause> tamaCATchi?
19:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that's what happens when people take xkcd too seriously
19:55:34  <Wolf01> yeah
19:56:26  <SikoR> so it's a hard work for someone who's like blindfolded ;)
19:56:46  <Eddi|zuHause> SikoR: yes.
19:59:04  <SikoR> anyway i would like to thank u for putting your time in helping me I appreciate it.
20:13:02  <frosch123> SikoR: just in case: if you only want to play between your pc and your notewook within your homenetwork, you don't need any port forwarding
20:13:25  <frosch123> port forwarding is only required to let other people play over the internet on your computer
20:13:36  <SikoR> yea i know
20:13:59  <SikoR> i want to play with friends not just throught lan
20:25:10  <andythenorth> if the router has an web-based admin interface, it’s usually easy
20:28:58  <andythenorth> hmm
20:29:05  * andythenorth wonders if FIRS 2 will ever ship
20:29:37  <frosch123> does it have a web-based admin interface?
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20:35:41  <drac_boy> hi
20:40:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: it used to, but I deleted that ;)
20:41:37  <andythenorth> serialising-deserialising the data to get it into newgrf was too tedious :)
20:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> should have automated it
20:46:47  <andythenorth> it was the code that was tedious :P
20:46:54  <andythenorth> I should have automated writing the code
20:50:24  <andythenorth> writing code is never going to solve the problem
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21:00:10  <drac_boy> eddi just a little random tidbit curiousity .. I wondered if the uk signalman had any terms for these semaphore signals they had to operate .. in usa I know some of the types were called armstrong levers because of needing big muscles to pull them into position heh
21:02:40  <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned that i have ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING CLUE about foreign signalling systems?
21:03:35  <frosch123> he only asked you about the brittish
21:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> last i checked, british was foreign :p
21:07:20  <drac_boy> either way heres something that was very rare and is now already gone for a few years (as part of a signal upgrade they finally did) http://trn.trains.com/~/media/images/railroad-news/news-wire/2015/08/semaphore.jpg?mw=900
21:07:34  <drac_boy> talk about modern diesel finding itself in front of fully operating semaphores :)
21:08:22  <drac_boy> the line is Raton Pass (in case sim-a12 is curious)
21:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that strange?
21:10:02  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what's foreign for you?
21:11:20  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: http://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/deutschland~bahnhoefe-f---k~kothen-anhalt/488832/gezogen-von-101-030-5-erreicht-der.html
21:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: anything that is not domestic
21:14:53  <Rubidium> so you know everything about both east and west german signalling stuff?
21:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that is an invalid inversion
21:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "A=>B" does not imply "¬A=>¬B"
21:16:26  <Eddi|zuHause> only "¬B=>¬A"
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21:17:30  <Rubidium> interestingly the EU has a gross domestic product ;)
21:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: of course, "domestic" depends on your personal point of view :p
21:18:55  <Rubidium> that's why defining domestic as not foreign is quite useless
21:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> however, i did not do that :p
21:19:57  <Rubidium> true, you did the inverse... defining foreign as not domestic
21:20:20  <Rubidium> ah well, splitting hairs
21:20:41  <Rubidium> germany has way too many signals
21:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
21:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it has like 5 completely different systems
21:21:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and then regional variations on those
21:25:48  <frosch123> i thought foreign means non-korean
21:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it might mean that, if you are korean :p
21:28:54  <drac_boy> someone mentioned korean? :) http://www.korea.net/upload/content/editImage/Seomjingang_River_Tourism_04.jpg
21:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that could be practically anywhere...
21:31:15  <frosch123> it's a szene in a theme park for sunflower-shaped aliens
21:31:15  <drac_boy> you'll have to photoshop the engine and that background to get any non-korea effect tho :)
21:32:49  <drac_boy> frosch heh .. well netherlands has a lot of trackside flowerbeds like these http://econews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Netherlands-trains-elelctric-wind-460x250.jpg
21:33:22  <frosch123> depends on the type of flower
21:33:29  <drac_boy> about half of the photos I've looked for NS trains (aside to that I have one dutch magazine with a few more) always had these kind of flowerbeds next to them
21:33:30  <frosch123> tulips mean dutchistan
21:33:50  <drac_boy> not too sure why but I guess the people there are too happy to care for a lot of flowers :)
21:34:26  <Rubidium> drac_boy: they make a lot of money
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21:42:57  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany you'd find lots of rapeseed instead
21:44:06  <drac_boy> and umm vines for the french? :) (or at least that was some of the purpose for the 60cm lines existing till roads ousted them)
21:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you need specific ground formations and climate for vines
21:44:56  <drac_boy> yeah
21:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you can find those as well in germany
21:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the colour scheme of that dutch train kinda looks like the old colour scheme of the munich S-Bahn
21:48:17  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/deutschland~elektrische-triebzuege~br-420/447174/420-073-geltendorf-100786.html
21:48:37  <drac_boy> hm didn't know they had used blue .. I somehow always associate with cream/red (early belin sbhan) or modern db red
21:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> blue/white are kinda the signature colours of munich/bavaria :p
21:50:00  <drac_boy> heh well I didn't know that till now
21:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in the rest of west germany the S-Bahn had this orange-ish colour: http://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/deutschland~elektrische-triebzuege~br-420/447171/420-006--162-nannhofen-170798.html
21:51:22  <drac_boy> I do seem to think that bavaria steam was rather often green with either green or red tire spokes ... compared to black with red chassis/spokes for drg otherwise
21:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> originally they wanted a different colour for each city
21:51:58  <drac_boy> mm could had been interesting if that did really happen ^
21:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: black for steam was rather "modern", the older the more colourful they were
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21:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the orange was meant for the Rhein/Ruhr area, and for Frankfurt i think they intended a red version, but then also made it orange
21:54:13  <drac_boy> there was also navy blue on some locomotives around the world but this seem to had been an individual thing (as in not an entire class at any time carried it etc)
21:54:32  <drac_boy> I wonder if yellow was on the list :) (re emu colours)
21:54:43  <drac_boy> might had been too easy to confuse with track maintenance trains tho
21:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a yellow train operated by Lufthansa, between the airports of Köln and Frankfurt, i believe. or possibly DÌsseldorf
21:55:43  <drac_boy> oh..that the white/yellow airport shuttle right?
21:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> as an alternative to flying short distance
21:57:08  <drac_boy> I've seen marklin's trainset for that quite a few times (it always seem to show up in the catalog photopages a lot even if not always actually catalogized)
21:57:09  <frosch123> there are regional mus from private corporations in about any colour
21:57:19  <frosch123> but usually they are not uni coloured
21:57:39  <Eddi|zuHause> this was the unused red intended for frankfurt: http://www.doku-des-alltags.de/BDMuenchen/420/1971-01-09_03 420503u420002_Dsts MueHbf.jpg
21:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.doku-des-alltags.de/BDMuenchen/420/1971-01-09_03%20420503u420002_Dsts%20MueHbf.jpg
21:58:15  <drac_boy> ah yeah I remember why I seem to recall that train easily ... it had that rather quirky nose styling for the cab coach end .. almost like a shallow wide duck mouth
21:58:33  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, that's the wrong image
21:58:40  <drac_boy> http://www.travelnotes.de/rails/airpex/papex7.jpg
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21:59:05  <andythenorth> bed
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21:59:28  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.doku-des-alltags.de/BDMuenchen/420/1971-01-09_02%20420503u420002_Dsts%20MueHbf.jpg
22:01:34  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, but there was also a locomotive+wagons version of this train
22:03:08  <drac_boy> interesting way they styled the blue/red strip on these trains btw (especially arrow ends on side and the band over the headlights)
22:04:21  <Eddi|zuHause> those were the 70s... nowadays everything has to be monotone red... (with mandatory highlights around the doors)
22:05:03  <drac_boy> yeah :-s
22:08:28  <drac_boy> japan at least generally seem to prefer silver with strips of other colours added onto that (re commuter sets) .. although sometimes I don't know about the particular windshield design certain ones have :-s
22:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they tried to break that pattern here by mandating that trains in the region must have main colour silver, which DB accented with green doors and abellio with red doors
22:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (i think they took green because that's the colour of the S-Bahn logo/lines on maps)
22:11:47  <Terkhen> Good night
22:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www10.pic-upload.de/19.08.13/o1llvftbbbr.jpg
22:12:39  <drac_boy> theres also the early amtrak livery which frankly I don't think I liked a lot (and don't mind that "rudolph" looking locomotive uhhh) http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C5233%5C4065.jpg
22:13:33  <drac_boy> at least the newer amtrak don't have the white background behind the strips so they do seem a bit better (but still not a favorite of mine)
22:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> http://hallespektrum.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/abellio2.jpg
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22:14:21  <drac_boy> mm that abellio2.jpg one does look decent
22:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that was a test drive. they begin operation this december
22:15:42  <drac_boy> nice
22:15:55  * drac_boy will have to see if the Today Railway Europe magazine ever mentions it or not :p
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22:17:33  <drac_boy> either way was nice talking about this but I'm going off soon for a bit tho :)
22:18:24  <drac_boy> oh and btw you mentioned about loco+wagons .. this is one of marklin's many photos after all http://ajckids.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/26671b.jpg
22:19:04  <drac_boy> either way be back in a hour give or take :)
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23:58:22  <drac_boy> hi

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