Log for #openttd on 16th January 2016:
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00:13:06  <drac_boy> hi
00:13:16  <drac_boy> been quite a while heh....anyone up to anything interesting grf-wise? :)
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00:37:59  <drac_boy> hi smoke
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01:03:50  <drac_boy> mm going upstairs for now...perhaps tomorrow
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09:35:17  <Wolf01> o/
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09:48:10  <Wolf01> bah... the Venice-Mestre tram now derails on curved tracks... I'm still of the opinion that a trolleybus was really better for the roads we have here :|
09:57:53  <Alberth> o/
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12:06:16  <andythenorth> o/
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12:17:27  <andythenorth> cat plays monopoly?
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12:19:08  <Wolf01> no, but it play risk for sure
12:21:05  <Wolf01> ah, andy, yesterday I purchased again the 42009 and 42030 :>
12:22:40  <V453000> cat shits brix
12:22:51  <V453000> machine gun mode atm
12:22:57  <V453000> many brix
12:28:34  <Alberth> /me orders extra containers to catch all brix
12:35:08  <andythenorth> Wolf01: 42009 really? o_O
12:35:12  <andythenorth> for parts or to build?
12:35:18  <Wolf01> yeah
12:35:21  <andythenorth> both?
12:35:23  <argoneus> have you guys ever used a shared_ptr?
12:35:35  <Wolf01> both
12:35:52  <andythenorth> I didn’t build the crane from 42009
12:36:03  <andythenorth> my kids wanted the B model
12:37:15  <Wolf01> I want to build the b model first, then I'll use them to build a backhoe loader
12:37:29  <andythenorth> the B model is quite good, there is nothing else in technic like it
12:37:42  <andythenorth> but mine shredded a gear inside the boom
12:37:46  <andythenorth> and I cba to fix it
12:38:42  <Wolf01> I think the volvo loader is a bit too big, so I'll order both the front and rear pieces from bricklink
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12:40:04  <Alberth> argoneus:  yep
12:41:28  <argoneus> Alberth: I can't find a usecase
12:41:48  <Alberth> that's good
12:42:02  <andythenorth> Wolf01: as backoes goe, this one is surprisingly good
12:42:15  <andythenorth> mostly because it’s really simple, and perfomative
12:42:25  <Alberth> shared pointers are a bit meh, and should be avoided if possible
12:42:47  <Wolf01> yeah, too bad I missed that one :(
12:43:01  <Alberth> basically if yo need them, you have an ownership problem with your objects
12:43:12  <Alberth> *you
12:43:22  <V453000> fuck we are back at lego again
12:43:26  <andythenorth> Wolf01: it’s an easy build from parts :)
12:43:43  <andythenorth> V453000: between that and toy trains, my pixel days are over, eh?
12:43:47  <Alberth> V: do we ever not talk about lego?  :)
12:44:11  <Wolf01> andy, it is, but I miss the excavator and the loader pieces :P
12:44:29  <andythenorth> bricklink ;)
12:45:01  <Wolf01> yes, that's what I'm doing
12:45:03  <andythenorth> I dunno, the Lego foamers on forums get excited about 27 million power functions, gearboxes, or whatever
12:45:12  <andythenorth> but I like the simple models with direct control over functions best
12:46:00  <Wolf01> I like them too, but they are impractical when on the stand where you need to do some show for kids
12:46:09  <Wolf01> so power functions come handy
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12:47:00  <argoneus> Alberth: the only thing I could think of was thread stuff, if multiple threads need access to an object which should then die
12:47:07  <argoneus> but im not sure if they are thread safe
12:47:10  <Wolf01> and sbrick comes more handy, 2 volvo loaders, a truck and a caterpillar all moving together loading and carrying candies to kids
12:47:35  <Alberth> argoneus: they are not, unless you take care of it
12:47:44  <argoneus> welp
12:47:58  <Alberth> threads are hardly ever the solution, in my experience
12:49:08  <Alberth> in my case, I had a bunch of objects that were created, and then given away and used (read-only) to other parts of the code, where it was not clear when the last owner was done with it.
12:49:33  <argoneus> I see
12:50:01  <argoneus> Alberth: shouldn't you pass a non owning ptr in that case though?
12:50:11  <argoneus> and keep it uniquely in the host
12:50:23  <Alberth> perhaps, but how do you decide nobody uses it then?
12:50:44  <argoneus> ah right
12:50:54  <Alberth> my objects were all "use once"
12:51:06  <Alberth> but at various points in the code
12:51:21  <Alberth> eg like messages that you distribute
12:54:23  <argoneus> Alberth: actually
12:54:28  <argoneus> what usecase is there for pointers in general?
12:54:38  <argoneus> I read somewhere that either when the object is heavy or if you need to defer initialization
12:54:48  <argoneus> otherwise make it on the stack and pass references
12:54:50  <Alberth> sharing information
12:55:03  <Alberth> references cannot be null
12:55:21  <Alberth> ie pointers can express "there is no information"
12:55:36  <argoneus> hm, that makes sense I guess
12:55:47  <argoneus> if a function requires std::list<int>&
12:55:51  <argoneus> you can't pass NULL
12:55:55  <argoneus> or can you?
12:55:59  <argoneus> I can't say I've tried this
12:56:07  <Alberth> but in modern C++, the need for pointers is highly reduced, you can write most code without ever using a pointer explicitly
12:56:31  <Alberth> no, a reference needs a proper object
12:56:56  <Alberth> you can cast stuff to convince the compiler, but it won't do much good
12:59:41  <argoneus> mhm
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13:12:05  <andythenorth> eh?  disconnected :P
13:12:07  <andythenorth> nvm
13:13:56  <andythenorth> eh, I just don’t much like this new FIRS economy
13:14:01  <andythenorth> post-colonial
13:14:07  <andythenorth> you have to build your own industries
13:14:19  <andythenorth> maybe I shouldn’t play that with Busy Bee :P
13:15:12  <V453000> xd
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13:28:55  <andythenorth> quak
13:29:19  <frosch123> hoi
13:29:49  <argoneus> ayy
13:31:56  <frosch123> argoneus: think of a shared_ptr as something multiple things need access to, and it is unknown when they are finished
13:32:42  <frosch123> for example a signal/slot thingie in qt or whatever
13:32:57  <frosch123> something can trigger it, others register to it
13:33:20  <frosch123> when receivers are destroyed they need to unregister, similar when the sender is destroyed
13:33:50  <frosch123> so, all of them need to know when each of them is destroyed, and this "still exists" information is shared between them
13:34:56  <frosch123> another example: your browser downloads a zip file with a pdf in it. you want to open it with a pdf viewer, thus the browser extracts the zip to a temporary location
13:35:29  <frosch123> when to delete that temporary location? answer: when all instances of pdf viewers accessing that files exit, and when the reference from the broweser download list is removed
13:35:50  <frosch123> funnily shared_ptrs do not exist for windows file systems
13:36:02  <frosch123> at least in times i was still using windows
13:37:53  <argoneus> hm
13:38:15  <Alberth> hola
13:39:11  <frosch123> argoneus: so mostly, you need shared_ptrs when programming generically, and you do not know in advance what stuff will be used for, and in what order it will be used
13:50:46  <argoneus> modern c++ actually doesn't look that terrible
13:50:50  <argoneus> it's extremely verbose though
13:50:58  <argoneus> and I don't get why you need ownership, why just refcount isn't enough
13:52:40  <Alberth> those are different concepts
13:53:06  <argoneus> okay let me rephrase
13:53:08  <Alberth> ownership is about deciding who can access the data, and more importantly, who can change it
13:53:21  <argoneus> a non-owning pointer can change data too, no?
13:53:24  <argoneus> it's not read-only
13:53:32  <Alberth> sure
13:53:43  <argoneus> the only thing it can't do is delete the data
13:53:55  <argoneus> but you don't generally delete pointers inside random functions
13:54:03  <argoneus> that's usually up to the destructor
13:54:29  <Alberth> normally, yes
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13:54:58  <argoneus> so why does it matter which pointer is the "master" pointer and isn't it just simple refcount?
13:54:58  <Alberth> although if you pass data for processing, it's quite normal to discard it after being done with it
13:56:02  <Alberth> so you can give away the object to anyone, and everybody can write in it as they like?
13:56:12  <Alberth> how do you keep consistency?
13:56:36  <argoneus> well, you can give away non-owning pointers and they can write in it anyway
13:56:44  <Alberth> I may have used some value to base a other computations on, but then someone else changes those values
13:56:51  <Alberth> making my computation invalid
13:57:32  <Alberth> yes, ownership is not about the technical ability to write, it's about a set of agreements how to behave
13:57:46  <Alberth> just like the irc channel
13:57:59  <Alberth> we can all type here at the same time, yet we don't
13:58:12  <Alberth> we have an informal set of agreements on how to use the channel
13:58:34  <argoneus> so ownership mostly tells me "okay this function is the one supposed to modify this value" and other pointers can just receive or work with the value but shouldn't be intrusive?
13:58:36  <Alberth> that's ownership, imho
13:59:08  <Alberth> you want to have clear at all times who can read what and who can write what
13:59:28  <Alberth> the easiest solution is to have one owner that handles writing
13:59:36  <Alberth> ie the owner of the object
13:59:45  <Alberth> that is thus a very common pattern
14:00:22  <Alberth> you can invent other patterns, and that's fine, they are just different form of ownerships, different sets of agreement
14:01:18  <Alberth> refcount is just that nobody deletes the object while you still have it. However, technically, the refcount has no meaning without the ownership agreement that everybody uses the refcount rules
14:02:07  <Wolf01> mmmh 254MB free on the disk
14:02:45  <Wolf01> no, too much D&D stacked on disk
14:03:04  <Alberth> it's not lego, can't be interesting :p
14:03:25  <argoneus> hm, I guess I get the point kinda
14:03:59  <Wolf01> I think I'll go play with lego while it's moving the stuff in the ext drive
14:04:33  <argoneus> try not to step on it
14:04:49  <Alberth> 245mb is a lot of text, it would take a few hours to fill that :p
14:05:06  <Wolf01> it's PDF
14:05:34  <Alberth> oh, bloaty wrapper crap...   pdf2text?   :)
14:05:56  <argoneus> looking at some code though, christ
14:06:01  <argoneus> I remember people laughing at java for being too verbose
14:06:08  <argoneus> and then there's c++11 code
14:06:13  <Alberth> ?
14:06:22  <Wolf01> I need the tables and the images, also not everything is recognized by OCR
14:06:34  <argoneus> Alberth: there's container declarations almost longer than 80 cols
14:06:52  <argoneus> or, well, there can be
14:07:03  <Alberth> unlike Java, you can use typedef in c++ :)
14:07:22  <argoneus> oh, right
14:07:27  <argoneus> I can typedef a map to something more readable
14:07:45  <Alberth> I do that all the time
14:08:06  <frosch123> argoneus: you need to avoid reference cycles
14:08:14  <argoneus> hm
14:08:19  <argoneus> typedef is a compiler, not a preprocessor token
14:08:21  <argoneus> interesting
14:08:22  <Alberth> and if you have a smart compiler, it even folds your typedef back in the error messages
14:08:24  <frosch123> not everything can be a ref-counting pointer, else A refers to B, B to C and C to A
14:08:26  <frosch123> and you are stuck
14:09:06  <Alberth> frosch123: just like shapes with at least 2 eyes in Go, they live forever :)
14:09:08  <argoneus> well, I guess it's time to give C++ a try again
14:09:17  <argoneus> any of you guys used CLion by chance?
14:09:24  <argoneus> or are you mostly linux peeps
14:09:49  <Alberth> mostly unix, except apple-unix
14:09:55  <Alberth> here at least
14:32:47  <V453000> why do cantliever and tubular pillar sprites have 2 versions per direction? XD
14:32:56  <V453000> the sprites in original base set do not even have any difference
14:35:57  <Alberth> the original author is not here, and even if he was, he would probably not remember why :)
14:36:30  <V453000> well yeah but couldn't we make openttd use them differently if they are the same in all so-far-made base sets?
14:39:26  <frosch123> V453000: did you try bridge lengths 4,5,6,7 ?
14:39:34  <frosch123> they have different parts in the middle
14:51:59  <V453000>
14:53:04  <V453000> rest is other sprite
14:53:08  <V453000> for some wtf reason it always is pillar n 1
14:53:21  <frosch123> "better" is 404
14:53:28  <V453000> reason is hard to find because both of the sprites are 100% the same
14:53:38  <V453000> tried with original base set, but I bet ogfx does the same
14:54:39  <Wolf01> ahahah
14:54:53  <frosch123> V453000: the original baseset has double pillars
14:55:07  <frosch123> maybe it is important wrt. whether to draw pillars at the bridge start/end
14:55:23  <V453000> but the sprite is the same
14:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the 404 is very... escher
14:55:33  <frosch123> i..e sprite 2527 draws a pillar at the south border, but 2528 does not
14:55:39  <V453000> double pillars are not for tubular or cantliever
14:55:56  <frosch123> still, the sprites are associated to tiles
14:56:03  <frosch123> what tile do those sprites belong to
14:56:23  <frosch123> the northern tile may not draw a pillar at the north border (bridge end)
14:56:23  <V453000> how do I know? XD
14:56:38  <frosch123> and the soutern tile may not draw a pillar at the south border (other brdige end)
14:56:57  <V453000> both of the sprites are still identical ._.
14:57:15  <frosch123> thus, if start/end of the bridge are not identical to the other tiles, there must be a different sprite at least at one end of thje bridge
14:57:24  <frosch123> V453000: but maybe different offsets?
14:57:26  <V453000> I think I understand
14:57:34  <V453000> no, exactly the same
14:57:38  <Mazur> Yeah, you gotta watch out for those brdige ends, they can cause havoc.
14:57:42  <frosch123> mabye 2528 is offseted so that it is drawn over the 2527 form the other tile
14:57:49  <V453000> sure but does that change anything?
14:58:08  <frosch123> V453000: ah, i get it
14:58:16  <V453000> ah you mean offset somewhere in game code, not in nml
14:58:18  <frosch123> the thing is: OTTD got smarter around 1.1 or something
14:58:30  <frosch123> it now cuts the sprites in the middle and draws the pilars in different lengths
14:58:41  <V453000> offsets are the first two parameters in template
14:58:42  <frosch123> you may need to use an older ottd version to see the difference
14:58:56  <V453000> :d aha
15:00:09  <frosch123> <- in older versions you can see which tile draws which pillar
15:00:32  <frosch123> while newer ottd cuts the pillar sprite in the middle to create two fake sprites
15:00:32  <V453000> suspended bridges work differently
15:00:35  <V453000> they do not have this wtf
15:00:38  <V453000> only cantliever and tubular
15:01:26  <frosch123> i would expect sprite 2527 to have a pillar in the south, while sprite 2528 should be empty
15:02:49  <V453000> it is just weird shit. :)
15:03:16  <V453000> but using them like would give more freedom to the graphics
15:03:44  <V453000> esp if the difference is not visible in any graphics atm (hence would not break anything)
15:03:49  <V453000> esp if the difference is not visible in any graphics atm (hence would not break anything)
15:05:39  <frosch123> that change is definitely NewBridges stuff :p
15:05:49  <frosch123> nothing for a baseset
15:06:01  <V453000> but it is just swapping 2 identical sprites...
15:06:05  <frosch123> also you change does not work
15:06:24  <V453000> I do not mean on side of newgrf or base set, on openttd side
15:06:24  <frosch123> as said: the most northern tile and most southern tile must draw different sprites
15:06:36  <frosch123> else you have a stall pillar at one end of the brdige
15:06:40  <V453000> k but cant the game take those from the same image?
15:07:10  <frosch123> what you try to achieve does not work with 2 sprites, you would need 4
15:07:11  <V453000> and use the second image for something useful?
15:07:20  <V453000> ok :D lets leave it at that
15:07:20  <andythenorth> hmm, all my industries need to be cartoon-ish, like the copper refinery? o-O
15:07:29  <frosch123> the second image is already used for something useful
15:07:40  <frosch123> namely to not have a stall pillar at the bridge end
15:08:10  <V453000> yes that I understand now
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15:14:50  <drac_boy> hi
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15:30:17  <supermop> yo
15:30:24  <Alberth> oi
15:30:30  <supermop> andythenorth: agave in firs?
15:31:03  <drac_boy> hows you two?
15:31:29  <supermop> plant fibers, sugar, alcohol, fruit, or some selection thereof?
15:31:42  <supermop> alright i quit my job
15:32:42  <V453000> :d
15:34:13  <andythenorth> hmm
15:34:29  <supermop> trying to draw a little agave/maguey sprite that could replace a cactus and show up on a plantation
15:35:09  <supermop> i just got back from a week and a half in mexico, and had lots of mexcal and pulque
15:35:21  <supermop> no tequila though
15:35:21  <argoneus> some teacher from my uni just told me he's impressed with my iOS skills
15:35:26  <argoneus> ...I've never done anything with iOS
15:35:36  <Alberth> lol
15:35:47  <supermop> argoneus: did he see you using an iphone?
15:35:57  <argoneus> supermop: I've never owned or even touched a single apple product
15:36:04  <Alberth> so either he has very low standards, or he wants something from you :p
15:36:11  <argoneus> he posted some sort of programming quiz on our school's fb group
15:36:14  <argoneus> and I filled it because I was bored
15:36:21  <argoneus> and I guess he assumes I know iOS from my responses
15:36:36  <Alberth> you mean there are other systems???
15:36:39  <Alberth> :)
15:36:40  <supermop> well you probably could figure out how to use an ipad, and maybee that's all he wants
15:36:46  <argoneus> well
15:36:51  <argoneus> it's a teacher at my uni who teaches iOS
15:36:54  <argoneus> and owns a startup
15:37:09  <supermop> needs seed funnding and/or cheap devs
15:37:20  <argoneus> probably the latter lmao
15:37:52  <argoneus> what is seed funding actually
15:38:21  <Alberth> you talking about him at random places
15:38:46  <argoneus> oy
15:39:03  <supermop> andythenorth: agave could replace sugar cane in arid areas, but unfortunately any map with a desert will also have tropics, so maybe pointless
15:39:10  <andythenorth> yair
15:39:27  * andythenorth needs a manor house type building or similar
15:39:31  <andythenorth> for a vineyard
15:39:44  <Alberth> castle!
15:39:48  <supermop> but mezcal is good and agave plants would look cute in arid inland mountains
15:39:58  <andythenorth> where can I steal a sprite from
15:40:06  <supermop> i guess in tropic all mountains are rainforests
15:40:30  <supermop> andythenorth: french? colonial? english? spanish?
15:40:49  <andythenorth> has to work for any
15:40:59  <andythenorth> generic mediterranean style
15:41:00  <andythenorth> would do
15:41:27  <supermop> i guess generic Mediterranean would fit the most number of wine producing areas
15:41:41  <andythenorth> maybe I can adapt the grain mill
15:41:42  <andythenorth>
15:41:57  <supermop> lots of guys in napa valley build med. style houses
15:42:02  <andythenorth> needs to look different to this though
15:42:07  <supermop> less so in auz
15:42:39  <supermop> should look more stately than coffee one
15:42:52  <drac_boy> if I had to pick an existing phone-ready mobile well..I would have had to say android
15:42:54  <supermop> they've got to put in on the bottle lable!
15:42:55  <drac_boy> to our own on that tho
15:43:03  <andythenorth> supermop: agreed
15:43:23  <supermop> do you have a wine with a house on the label at hand?
15:43:46  <supermop> all of mine here have modernist or hipstery designs on them
15:44:24  <supermop> i kind of tired of french wine though, and only have s. american and australian
15:44:34  <supermop> why pay $$$
15:45:45  <Alberth> it casts lots of $$$, it must be good?
15:45:56  <supermop>
15:46:14  <supermop> more italian ones are less symmetrical
15:46:40  <supermop> ideally, base set would have a mansion, and you would just reference that
15:46:55  <supermop> and then region specific house sets could replace it
15:47:14  <supermop> so you could get a manor in the style of whatever house set you use
15:49:09  <supermop> just use the grain mill for now
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16:00:00  <andythenorth> maybe I should worry less about the buildings
16:00:04  <andythenorth> and more about the vines
16:00:07  <andythenorth> currently it uses trees :P
16:00:30  <supermop> haha
16:00:47  <supermop> can make wine out of apples
16:01:02  <supermop> most people would call it cider though
16:02:21  <andythenorth> hmm
16:02:39  <andythenorth> so now I have a feature for FIRS 2.0: ‘removed Heart of Darkness’ economy
16:02:41  <drac_boy> apple + glass = food :)
16:02:45  <andythenorth> and no replacement :(
16:03:02  <andythenorth> balls
16:07:13  <andythenorth> anyone prepared to play test FIRS for me?
16:08:52  <andythenorth> this economy too big, too blah
16:16:59  <ConductorCat> :3
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16:21:16  <supermop> sure i'll try
16:22:36  <andythenorth> it’s got a ‘post-colonial’ idea that 50% of the industries aren’t available at map gen
16:22:47  <andythenorth> I think that’s dumb for gameplay, and I’m about to scrap it :P
16:22:54  <andythenorth> supermop: ^
16:23:50  <Alberth> that's a new experience for industry sets :)
16:24:03  <andythenorth> scrapping it?
16:24:11  <andythenorth> or 50% of industries missing :P
16:29:43  <Alberth> missing industries
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16:30:26  <supermop> andythenorth: is this in nightly?
16:30:41  <andythenorth> yea, but I am changing it :P
16:31:07  <andythenorth> hmm
16:31:16  <andythenorth> we only have RHS “ chars in game :P
16:31:23  <andythenorth> partial smart quote?
16:31:47  <supermop> four agaves per tile or 16?
16:32:53  <andythenorth> really there’s no char for LH quote mark? :o
16:32:58  <supermop> also do farms control the animation of crops? or does it alwas take the same amount of time for a tile to mature?
16:33:21  <supermop> i guess non-grain fields can't be real fields so doesn't matter
16:33:55  <andythenorth> yes
16:34:42  <Alberth> use unicode?
16:36:06  * andythenorth wonders if the char is present in original baseset font
16:37:55  <andythenorth> eh, the in-game license viewer uses plain " chars
16:38:15  <andythenorth> maybe there's a way :(
16:39:30  <Eddi|zuHause> what font do you use?
16:40:33  <andythenorth> TTD base set
16:42:07  <andythenorth> hmm
16:42:17  * andythenorth cuts out the post-colonial history lesson from FIRS
16:42:19  <andythenorth> definitely better
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16:52:51  <drac_boy> going eat now so bye :)
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17:06:26  <andythenorth> anyone feel like doing a West African town names grf?
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17:09:20  <Alberth> pop up a warning "no west-african town names detected" whenever you start firs :p
17:12:14  <andythenorth> how hard is a town names grf?
17:12:19  * andythenorth doesn't want another project :P
17:21:28  <Alberth> not
17:22:06  <Alberth> find a list of names, wrap some blurb text around it, throw it at nml, done
17:23:53  <andythenorth>
17:23:54  <andythenorth> :P
17:24:23  <andythenorth> ho, this even
17:25:04  <Alberth>
17:25:45  <Alberth> for advanced uses, you can have a sequence of parts, eg common suffixes
17:26:04  <Alberth> or common prefixes, or both
17:26:54  <Alberth> ie action F without the stupid limits :p
17:33:00  <andythenorth> so I have 330 names :P
17:33:09  * andythenorth should read some dutchtowns code
17:35:14  * andythenorth checks FIRS
18:01:32  * andythenorth wonders why FIRS didn't build :|
18:04:26  <Alberth>
18:22:00  <andythenorth> yair
18:22:06  <andythenorth> "that's not valid python"
18:22:50  <frosch123> is it a colubrid?
18:24:30  * andythenorth tries again
18:24:56  <supermop> damn it i am halfway across this 1024 map and i've only got the bronx part of my pelham line done
18:28:08  <supermop> that's with making everything short and stubby too
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18:33:10  <andythenorth> supermop: if you want to try this :) 
18:34:04  <andythenorth> specifically
18:35:07  <supermop> going to get lunch first
18:37:01  <andythenorth> ok :)
18:37:53  * andythenorth not sure about iron ore
18:38:08  <andythenorth> it's already in 2 other economies, and I've got a possible Australian economy in mind, where it will be needed
18:38:20  * andythenorth considers uranium
18:38:27  <andythenorth> there was some reason I didn't want to do that before :P
18:38:32  <andythenorth> can't remember it
18:38:35  <supermop> idk iron seems to be a bit of a big deal
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18:39:07  <supermop> perennial favorite with people for the last 10-20 thousnd years
18:39:24  <andythenorth> channel search is broken :D
18:40:30  <supermop> i always thought that the issue with nuclear fuel in game was less anything political, and more, so little of it gets moved around so seldomly
18:41:01  <supermop> no fun to refuel a power plant with a 1-car train once every 2 years
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18:42:19  <supermop> without electricity in game you can't even rationalize that as a benefit ("at least I don't need to clog up my rails with long coal trains to still get power!")
18:43:06  <Alberth> driving at 5km/h :)
18:43:24  <supermop> i mean i love weird overzealous timetabling, so i would schedule a train once every other year, but i don't know how station or industries in game would understand that
18:44:06  <supermop> CD would drop link between processing plant and power station
18:44:15  <planetmaker> haha, that would make for awesome wagon speed limits: 80 or 120 km/h usually. Except for uranium, then it's 5km/h :P
18:44:24  <planetmaker> so much for the dreaded r-word
18:44:26  <andythenorth> oh yeah, it's the stupid low volumes
18:44:37  <andythenorth> but it could be done in flasks or whatever
18:44:45  <andythenorth> instead of tonnes
18:44:57  <supermop> you can't run it at night either - it's always rushhour in ottd land
18:45:06  <planetmaker> that doesn't make it really better, andythenorth
18:45:20  <andythenorth> because...?
18:45:28  <supermop> andythenorth: its still like 5 flasks per decade
18:45:48  <andythenorth> I was delivering it to ports :)
18:46:05  <andythenorth> and I don't think input amounts to black holes matter in this game much anyway
18:46:11  <supermop> unless the power company is paying you to run decoys regularly as well
18:46:14  <andythenorth> 2000 tonnes of cement to your hardware store?
18:46:16  <andythenorth> no problem
18:46:29  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I doubt the uranium quay is in heavy use at any port
18:46:31  <Alberth> isn't industry like diamond mines having that low production? (or gold or so?)
18:46:40  <planetmaker> yes, they do
18:46:42  <andythenorth> diamonds have <100 bags / month
18:46:44  <andythenorth> as valuables
18:46:47  <andythenorth> I find them a bit boring tbh
18:46:53  <andythenorth> but uranium could be same
18:47:00  <supermop> maybe a local dam builder buys all his cement at the hardware store
18:47:02  <andythenorth> but it doesn't encourage long trains etc
18:47:29  <andythenorth> 1 flask of uranium per vehicle?
18:50:48  <supermop> although there is no crime, terrorism, or war in openttd world, so you don't need to heavily guard it
18:52:18  <V453000> join yeti in uranium :D
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18:56:00  <supermop> what to get for lunch
19:00:47  <andythenorth> cheese
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19:17:44  <Alberth> bread
19:17:49  <Alberth> butter is nice too
19:21:37  <andythenorth> spiral concentrators for sand mining
19:21:45  <andythenorth> a bit wtf looking
19:22:13  <peter1138> wtf
19:22:24  <Alberth> looks awesome :)
19:24:56  <andythenorth>
19:25:03  <andythenorth> floating on barges for lagoon dredging
19:25:38  <andythenorth>
19:25:46  <andythenorth> (illegal dredging apparently)
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19:32:25  <Alberth> heart of darkness all over again :(
19:33:51  <sim-al2> But default OTTD does have those armored vans for valuables....
19:34:31  <andythenorth> this one is pretty serious
19:35:25  <__ln__> and it's a png
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19:45:10  * andythenorth wonders about ilmenite mine
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20:46:31  * andythenorth needs one more kind of import / export industry
20:46:43  <andythenorth> got Bulk Terminal, Port, Trading Post currently
20:48:09  <andythenorth> could do a petro-chemical terminal, but it's basically same as oil refinery
20:48:17  <andythenorth> oil in, petrol, chemicals out
20:48:25  <andythenorth> or petrol, chemicals in, nothing out
20:52:15  <andythenorth> could do 'deepwater terminal', but eh
20:52:19  <andythenorth> or 'quay'
20:52:40  <andythenorth> when translated, the difference between those and 'bulk terminal' or 'port' might be meaningless
20:54:24  <andythenorth> I could do a totally generic 'merchant'
20:56:21  <Eddi|zuHause> do an economy that is only import-export, no producing industry.
20:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and all the industries cluster at one point of the map
20:57:36  <frosch123> Add an exploration camp
20:57:54  <frosch123> accepts food, tools and glass
20:58:02  <frosch123> supplies gold and diamonds
20:58:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: I quite like that :D
20:58:17  <andythenorth> the diamond mines are boring
20:58:29  <andythenorth> prospectors camp
20:58:36  <andythenorth> maybe conflates with 'prospecting'
20:59:00  <andythenorth> 'import / export merchant' ? :P
20:59:03  <andythenorth> seems bland
20:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> simulate the office of the bank guy who gets the diamonds from the miners and pays them
20:59:19  <andythenorth> yeah
20:59:28  <andythenorth> was going to do that
20:59:34  <andythenorth> but it's just a boring black hole?
21:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's the source of the diamonds, not the destination.
21:01:27  <andythenorth> oic :)
21:03:44  <andythenorth> still, where do they go? :)
21:03:59  <frosch123> girls
21:04:17  <andythenorth> diamons -> merchant -> wives?
21:04:25  <andythenorth> are wives a cargo?
21:04:56  <frosch123> don't add a merchant that supplies wives :/
21:05:39  <frosch123> add a "wedding fair"
21:06:19  <andythenorth> this economy gets interesting
21:06:22  <andythenorth> what to call it?
21:06:26  <frosch123> though judging your excessive chemical usage
21:06:35  <frosch123> how about delivering diamonds to the glass works :p
21:06:39  <frosch123> for cutting the glass
21:07:19  <andythenorth> industrial diamonds?
21:08:06  <frosch123> you mean, deliver coal to diamond plants instead of power plants? :p
21:08:19  <andythenorth> ho
21:08:22  <frosch123> removes another blackhole :p
21:08:29  <andythenorth> such many ideas :)
21:08:56  <supermop> my fiance just bought a wedding dress for 
21:09:18  <andythenorth> wedding dress cargo
21:09:19  <supermop> i don't think i can find a suit for that price outside of vietnam
21:09:41  <frosch123> supermop: sounds like barbie size
21:10:21  <frosch123> here you rent wedding dresses for 1/3 of the purchase price
21:10:46  <supermop>  sounds still cheaper
21:10:52  <frosch123> you just need to be rational enough to not want to keep it
21:10:57  <andythenorth> supermop: try vietnam?
21:11:05  <frosch123>  sounds wrong :p
21:11:21  <supermop> i never understood those 00+ dresses
21:11:44  <supermop> i can sort of understand a suit that much if it is bespoke hand made, but even then
21:11:59  <supermop> (and i don't mind expensive clothes)
21:12:02  <frosch123> you don't mass produce dresses
21:12:25  <frosch123> you need to offer a lot of choice, but do not sell many of each at all
21:12:31  <frosch123> that makes the production very inefficient
21:12:45  <supermop> andythenorth: no time to go back before wedding. closest ill get is taiwan and hk in june
21:12:55  <andythenorth> my wedding suit came from HK
21:13:00  <andythenorth> wasn't  though
21:13:25  <supermop> frosch123: i understand that part, but i never really like those dresses from a fashion or style standpoint either
21:16:30  <supermop> my grandma got married in a suit that she just wore to the office most days
21:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> studies have shown that cost of the wedding is reciprocal to length of the wedding
21:16:45  <Alberth> :)
21:16:55  <supermop> but that was in 1949, and they had no ceremony
21:16:58  <frosch123> interesting study :)
21:17:27  <andythenorth> mine was 4 days :P
21:17:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant length of the marriage
21:17:51  <andythenorth> as yet unproven, in my case
21:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> reversely, number of people attending is proportional to length
21:19:42  <andythenorth> hmm
21:19:43  <andythenorth>
21:19:46  <andythenorth> 'merchants'
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21:21:18  <Trollebas> Heloy
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21:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
21:22:41  <andythenorth> 'merchants', 'merchants pier', 'merchants landing' ?
21:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what are those supposed to do?
21:23:13  <andythenorth> accept / produce high value cargos
21:23:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: contraband bay
21:23:19  <andythenorth> diamonds, gold, goods etc
21:23:23  <andythenorth> 'smugglers' :D
21:23:25  <andythenorth> ha ha
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21:23:51  <frosch123> yeah, smugglers for high-value, low-volume cargos
21:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: three chinese with a contraband? :p
21:24:21  <frosch123> maybe contraband is AE, no idea, andy may know better
21:24:36  <frosch123> i thought 'smugglers' was too german
21:24:50  <andythenorth> smuggles smuggle contraband
21:25:02  <frosch123> ah, ok :)
21:25:03  <Eddi|zuHause> contraband is the product being smuggled, not the smugglers
21:25:32  <frosch123> anyway, it may allow you do create some distinguishable graphics
21:25:38  <frosch123> instead of yet another generic port :p
21:26:12  <andythenorth> merchants and smugglers separate?
21:26:18  <andythenorth> one gives more goods back than the other :P
21:27:31  * andythenorth will think on
21:28:11  <andythenorth> 'pirates'
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21:29:28  <andythenorth> generic ports are boring
21:29:37  <andythenorth> bbl or tomorrow
21:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue where you're going with this...
21:29:53  <andythenorth> economy that exports a lot of primary cargo
21:30:00  <andythenorth> and imports most tertiary cargo
21:30:08  <andythenorth> and some secondary
21:30:22  <andythenorth> to make it work, needs export / import industries
21:30:50  <andythenorth> ports instead of refineries, processorts etc
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