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00:04:24 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? 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I'm kinda thinking so but just wonder what others thought too 01:12:26 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:26 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:31:51 <Flygon> Stub turnouts? 01:32:05 <Flygon> (okay, so, 48 tiles of Oil = 2,860 Crates of Goods) 01:34:34 <drac_boy> http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Thorn%20Creek%20and%20Western/200811184552_PCRR_3-way%20stub-cropped.jpg heres a three-way one for you :) 01:34:44 <drac_boy> and heh flygon, you trying to get massive transport? :) 01:34:53 <Flygon> Three-way? 01:34:57 <Flygon> Needs more gauges 01:35:09 <Flygon> Needs to be an or- er- collaorative party 01:35:29 <Flygon> drac_boy: Island map with just one Oil Refinery in the middle of nowhere 01:35:39 <Flygon> These trains are the most efficient I got 01:36:23 <drac_boy> flygon well I think dual gauge usually were only 2 because the frogs were complex enough to make in the first place 01:36:47 <drac_boy> although if you got a lot of time with your model train I don't see why you couldn't had tried make one that hopefully might work :) 01:37:00 <Flygon> South Australia had triple gauge points :D 01:38:49 <drac_boy> although I know theres one spot in russia where their (5+ft)track crosses a standard gauge tram line and a 'children railroad' narrow gauge ... three different gauges of diamonds 01:39:17 <Flygon> Ouc 01:39:18 <Flygon> Ouch 01:42:51 <drac_boy> this is a different one from the one I mentioned but it still shows how three gauges are living next to each others. the steam locomotive is on 750mm and crossing broad gauge .. while that tram on other side of road is on 4'8" gauge 01:42:53 <drac_boy> http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/pics09/russia09166.jpg 01:49:46 <drac_boy> flygon just asking but what you think of this locomotive? http://www.x-rail.ch/MOB/Lokomotiven/Elektr.Lok/Bilder/DZe-6-6-2002_G004.jpg (and optionally maybe the train too) 01:50:00 <Flygon> I am a bit surprised they never regauged to more standardized gauges 01:50:16 <Flygon> ie. 1067mm and 1524mm for Russia 01:50:39 <Flygon> IT'S A BLUEBIRD 01:50:56 <Flygon> https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3470/3816924761_91011e4118_b.jpg 01:52:04 <Flygon> http://vicsig.net/passenger/photos/19980800-811-801-spencer-st-ig.jpg V/Line imported a set for use as an Interurban DMU. Transmission seized on the first revenue run. With the Press and State Premier (equiv. to Prime Minister) onboard. 01:52:34 <Flygon> It handled the start-stop pattern on the mountainous terrain very badly. It was designed to cruise at high speed on long distance lines >_> 01:52:53 <Flygon> (I forgot if it was Diesel-Mechancial or Diesel-Hydralic) 01:55:46 <drac_boy> heh well the locomotive is basically a Dze 6/6, and the only non-krokodil articulated locomotive as far as I know (aside to steam in form of 0-4-4-0T but it didn't go far) 01:56:13 <drac_boy> and btw I believe they used 750mm as it was rather supposed to be a low cost 'schooling' thing rather than as a everyday commercial railway to put it in words 01:57:09 * Flygon nod 01:57:17 <Flygon> Still, I'd be a bit worried about the increase in costs 01:57:29 <drac_boy> heh that sounds like australia didn't exactly have good luck with these specific dmu's 01:57:35 <Flygon> On the other hand, this makes for very cheap to import heratage stock for some Victorian railways :P 01:57:47 <drac_boy> considering they have many old railmotors and emu's still running around 01:58:08 <drac_boy> I still like the red slamdoor ones mind you 01:58:13 <Flygon> (we built a lot of 762mm lines... 750mm is within gauge variance tolerance at the speeds the lines ran) 01:58:29 <Flygon> Ehh 01:58:36 <Flygon> The Bluebirds ran well for what they were designed for 01:58:39 <Flygon> Barren plains 01:58:58 <Flygon> Victora is made up of mountains, moutains, and more mountains 01:59:16 <Flygon> You wouldn't think V/Line had a hand in the climax of Thunderdome xP 01:59:25 <Flygon> (our North-West IS Desert) 01:59:36 <drac_boy> http://www.victorianrailways.net/photogallery/gall03/03-03.jpg :) 01:59:42 <Flygon> This's also half the reason the VLos are so overpowered >_> 01:59:58 <Flygon> That's a Sliding Door, not a Slam Door :3 02:00:24 <Flygon> And I still think they should get the highest unload/reload rating possible for the 2CC set, given they're almost as much door as they are wall >_> 02:00:36 <drac_boy> oh well...one reason I like them is that from a side view .. if you blocked the pantograph from view it would almost look like a standard coach instead ... thats how generic they look like :) 02:00:51 <Flygon> Note that the doors slide BEHIND the Windows. The windows get blocked by the doors when they're ope! 02:00:58 <Flygon> Well, they were built the 1880s 02:01:03 <Flygon> in the* 02:01:19 <Flygon> They were refitted for EMU operation 02:01:30 <Flygon> And ran as both carriages and EMUs combined for over 100 years. 02:02:03 <drac_boy> the funny thing is there was actually this one britian oo scale layout I saw at a show once .. I asked about two coaches left on the line ... umm guess what happened? yep soon these two suddenly moved away on their own ... I had not realized they were actually power units :P 02:02:30 <drac_boy> compared to more modern dmu/emu units being too obvious even from a far distance 02:03:28 <Flygon> :D 02:03:32 <Flygon> Well, think of it this way 02:03:59 <Flygon> It dooooes make economical sense to refit existig units 02:04:13 <Flygon> Just replace the bogies, add pantographs, add control stand... done!! 02:05:11 <Flygon> Keeeeeeping in mind 02:05:18 <Flygon> They ALREADY had cabs, with windows, for the guards to use 02:05:41 <Flygon> iirc, sometimes they'd run the trains with the locomotive pushing on the rear, and the guard reading the signals 02:05:47 <drac_boy> these are a similar usa example I like ... remove the pantograph and suddenly it looks just like another coach :p http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/4/1/2941.1076862780.jpg 02:06:02 <Flygon> I don't know if the guard had much control beyond using the bells and brakes, though 02:06:08 <drac_boy> mind you the funny thing is that later on GG1's sometimes did haul these (with the non-GG1 pantographs tied down) 02:06:22 * Flygon nod 02:08:20 <drac_boy> the slight sad thing is the timing tho .. just when budd was trying to sell a newer version (lightweight chassis with weight-saving aluminum shell for example) very few of them were ever purchased in the first place due to the spiral the company soon went into 02:08:32 <Flygon> Damn 02:08:35 <drac_boy> at least the amfleet coaches were more or less an unpowered copy of the design tho 02:09:05 <Flygon> This's half the reason VR built a lot of stuff inhouse until the 50s-60s... 02:09:16 <drac_boy> these would-be fleet of emu had inside bearing as well (yep no truck frame in view) 02:09:17 <Flygon> VR's unlikely to collapse suddenly xP 02:09:37 <Flygon> Hum o.o 02:11:25 <drac_boy> btw these are what could-had-been for prr .. save for no inside bearings (as noted by the truck frames) http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C5233%5C2887.jpg 02:12:08 <Flygon> Huh, well... I do gotta say 02:12:13 <Flygon> They look American as hell 02:12:14 <drac_boy> only 6 built and all were designed as single-unit motors (so yeah 2 cabs in every each of them) 02:12:25 <drac_boy> assuming wiki got the quality right 02:14:55 <drac_boy> oh and flygon heres a weird history tidbit on the budd metroliner initially built for PC (then later amtrak) .. they were supposed to have lightweight trucks but PC got a bit worried and demanded older more reliable heavyweight trucks instead ... guess what happened? they caused more harsh ride at higher speeds but the designers only could migrate a bit of it without having to send the whole thing back to drawing board :-s 02:16:35 <drac_boy> at least even with the semi-lasthour truck switch these trainsets still did 100+mph in service 02:20:26 <Flygon> Didn't the fact they were so overweight cause huge structural problems? 02:21:07 <drac_boy> maybe, I don't recall the magazine article talking about that tho 02:21:58 * Flygon nod 02:22:20 <drac_boy> I do know for sure that till amtrak cured the issue with the belly-mounted electronics (surprise surprise) some winters sometimes saw the metroliner trainset not moving by itself but instead being hauled by a GG1 (which a number of had already received winterize kits for their air intake covers) 02:24:07 <drac_boy> heres one with the pantographs still up (probably separate electric heating transformer was still functional) https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f8/64/88/f864883195bbbafb7bf1b43bceb679f8.jpg 02:24:35 <drac_boy> even with the snow "smoke" you still can tell its a metroliner due to the tapered sides ;) 02:26:04 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6D7BF.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:23 <Flygon> O_o 02:26:28 <drac_boy> aha flygon I found how amtrak eventually fixed their snow problem: they stuffed more of the electronics to the roof instead of in the belly, and heres an example of this http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/0/9/1209.1130331600.jpg 02:27:13 <Flygon> Well, that'd work @_@ 02:27:23 <Flygon> Ahh, USA, having massive gauge :D 02:27:33 <Flygon> Australia? Limited loading gauge. DD Trains all over Sydney :D 02:27:34 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:42 <Flygon> Some of the world's most cramped underfloor electronics 02:27:51 <Flygon> To the point where Japanese utterly baffled :3 02:28:38 <drac_boy> actually 'massive gauge' was not always so .. theres still some lines where amtrak could not even run their bilevel wagons at all (that was why a few old pre-amtrak diner coaches kept existing for so long due to being assigned together with amtrak-funded coaches on these routes) 02:29:10 <drac_boy> oh and to a more common degree if you're wondering why a doublestack train is *all* single containers ... check your map you might see why :) 02:29:57 <Flygon> Hum? 02:30:18 <Flygon> (we do have lots of Double Stack here... bar certain lines with 1800s era tunnels) 02:31:21 <drac_boy> well its a bit funny sight sometimes .. seeing a very long train of nothing but just ttx doublestack wagons .. and yet guess what? its loaded to only single container height from the front to the back end :) 02:31:57 <Flygon> O_o 02:32:59 <drac_boy> oh and flygon if you want talk about pushing gauge to the limit .. try THIS http://www.railarchive.net/rlsteam/images/nyc3137.jpg 02:33:24 <Flygon> That's not pushed to the limit :3 02:33:27 <Flygon> It's not cramped enough 02:33:44 <drac_boy> nyc made it as big as their railroad would even take it .. heck the bell couldn't sit on top anymore so umm guess where they had to put it? right behind the pilot ... think that caused a lot of snow-out problems tho 02:34:00 <Flygon> https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5175/5497441683_b364b5cdc0_b.jpg THIS is pushing the gauge as far as possible :3 02:34:07 <Flygon> It's not as biiiig, but it's cramped af :D 02:34:30 <Flygon> Even the Chimeny is noticably even stumpier 02:35:24 <Flygon> But, again, I still think lots of US railroads had waaay large loading gauges :D 02:35:27 <drac_boy> your problem is your boiler isn't exactly round at the top :) 02:35:53 <Flygon> Well, we had to fit it into the loading gauge somehow :P 02:36:29 <Flygon> http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/harry/h220late.jpg The dome on the top actually becomes very thin on the top 02:37:06 <sim-al2> Too large????? How do you plan to do this elsewhere? http://trn.trains.com/~/media/images/railroad-news/news-wire/2013/02/boeing-middleton.jpg 02:37:52 <drac_boy> btw a noticeable number of tunnels in east usa actually had to be relaid to single track (instead of prior double) as to be able to clear the newer GE Dash units ... sometimes even the wagons as well (but even then some could accept the new locomotives but were still too shallow for a doublestack) 02:38:15 <sim-al2> Most of the time they cut the tunnel floor though, or notched the ceiling 02:38:22 <drac_boy> a few of these tunnels that were still doubletrack had noticeable notches in the portal ends ... adding a few inches more of clearance 02:38:44 <sim-al2> If it can't clear a Dash 8 it's not going to clear high-cube boxcars 02:39:13 <Flygon> drac_boy: Same thing happened here with older tunnels as we got larger gauges happening 02:39:49 <Flygon> sim-al2: People do tend to forget the wings are designed to deattach :P 02:40:00 <sim-al2> Although there is a GE cab variation with slight notching, supposedly because a coal loader on a AT&SF/BNSF line in Arizona was a bit too small to clear the regular version 02:40:22 <sim-al2> Well, in this case the wings haven't been put on yet :p 02:41:01 <drac_boy> btw flygon there is also a few rare instances of where the tunnel was built through a small hill instead of an actual mountain and so 50+ years later the then-current railroad decides its worth the cost to basically "remove" the offending hill in first place 02:41:03 <drac_boy> eg http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/dfandrews/Cajon%205.JPG 02:41:30 <drac_boy> and yes these are old tunnel portals that are about to have no purpose for existing anymore soon 02:41:37 <sim-al2> For whatever reason, it's been cheaper to build the fuselages in the Mid-West or even east coast, and then ship them all the way to Seattle 02:41:55 <Flygon> Sounds like some of my OTTD games 02:42:15 <sim-al2> Yeah, BNSF has been doing that a lot, especially in the case of older tunnels 02:42:23 <Flygon> sim-al2: Same reason we send food to China for processing then reimport it >_> 02:43:27 <sim-al2> The best part is, when they arrive at Everett, a pair of GP38's shove the cars up hill to the plant 02:44:29 <Flygon> Let's take a moment to appreciate that, when we get the Bering Strait link 02:44:39 <Flygon> They'll prolly outsource fusilages to China >_> 02:44:50 <Flygon> Or Russia. Whatever's cheaper and less likely to crash 02:45:17 <sim-al2> No way that would be allowed, Boeing gets all kinds of concessions just to stay in Seattle 02:45:53 <Flygon> Ooh 02:45:56 <Flygon> That explais a lot 02:45:59 <Flygon> explains* 02:46:06 <sim-al2> Besides, shipping all the way across the ocean would be too expensive, and Chinese wages aren't rock bottom anymore 02:46:29 <Flygon> Yeah 02:46:32 <Flygon> China's gonna rise... 02:46:37 <Flygon> I wonder what'll be the next manufacturing base 02:46:49 <sim-al2> China has different minimum wages by region, the area around Shianghai is around the same level as Mexico 02:46:55 <Flygon> I'm placing bets on Africa... if they can get their collective proverbial sorted 02:47:17 <sim-al2> The northern interior is still quite low, but shipping from their is even more expensive, because you have to travel so far by land 02:47:50 <drac_boy> flygon btw if you want an instance of rail gauge gone crazy, take ten pills and go look at england :) 02:48:20 <sim-al2> I suppose, but I see Europe and south/southeast Asia as a more important destination for African industry than the US 02:48:59 <drac_boy> as I recall one example from mind, a small group of emu had stiffened suspensions as to be able to use a rather tight vintage-steam-era tunnel .. and just once none were around so someone tried borrow the same emu from another railway instead and umm guess what happened? it made some major dints both to the tunnel lining and itself :-> 02:49:18 <drac_boy> talk about suspension plays! 02:49:46 <sim-al2> Sounds like England, where there was one railway line that constrained all the southern region diesel stock 02:50:29 <sim-al2> Including requiring a batch of Class 33s there were a few inches narrower, but ended costing the manufacturer a lot in retooling to build 02:51:25 <sim-al2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I64WvM8yxc 02:51:44 <drac_boy> oh and btw even during the steam era there were an obvious reason some classes were banned on certain routes .. I know a magazine had one photo of an express 4-6-0 with some noticeable platform-strike damage to its piston coverings ... turns out that the story was that an engine swap was supposed to happen earlier on but it wasn't available for some reason so the crew decided to just continue on with their existing locomotive 02:52:14 <Flygon> Doesn't the UK have a 372mm commercial line or something? 02:52:20 <drac_boy> after a shed inspection the locomotive was sent back to where it should had been at on a special routing with 40kph restriction :-) 02:53:06 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 02:53:13 <sim-al2> 372mm is hideously small, there are 1372mm railways, aka Soctch gauge, 4 foot 6 inches 02:53:48 <sim-al2> So-called minimum gauge is 381 mm, or 15 in 02:53:54 <drac_boy> 372mm sounds like some hand-pushed or 10hp tractor powered 10kph freight cart railway tbh 02:54:23 <sim-al2> Yeah, that's not really equipment that can go very far or fast 02:54:46 <drac_boy> 2ft/600mm was really probably the smallest independent transport gauge you could use tbh 02:55:03 <Flygon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romney,_Hythe_and_Dymchurch_Railway 02:55:32 <drac_boy> and not surprisingly even 60cm (aka 600mm) used to be a big thing around france area (neverminding non-france areas during WWII as well) 02:56:42 <sim-al2> Yeah, 600mm seems to be the smallest to have "real" equipment, and even then there's some problems: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/SAR_Class_91-000_91-006.JPG 02:56:56 <Flygon> 381mm 02:57:29 <drac_boy> heres one of these non-wartime 60cm line http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/images/stories/railways/ashover/01_ashovermixed.jpg 02:57:46 <drac_boy> and yeah that coach is a bit big .. talk about needing to keep a 6ft headspace inside among other things :) 02:58:33 <sim-al2> It seems that many industrial railways disappeared as trucks improved, those that remain being tourist railways, specialized, or converted to larger gauge 02:58:52 <Flygon> I'd be worrying about the passengers tipping the carriage over 02:59:25 <sim-al2> Usually the center of gravity is kept low by the frame, but these railways certianly had low speed limits 02:59:49 <drac_boy> well sim-a12 the real problem was that politics never really understood things .. they were basically asking to trade one relatively quiet train with low-cost property maintenance for basically loud black-smoking trucks that didn't really pay for their roads (at the time) 03:00:04 <sim-al2> That Class 91 has a maximum speed of 50km/h for example 03:00:17 <drac_boy> thats what some vine farm newseditors basically quoted the event as 03:01:39 <drac_boy> heh hmm yeah these class 91 seem oversized for their gauge just as much as these almost seem too big http://users.eastlink.ca/~othen/Newfoundland/CN946%20St%20John's%20station%2019SE76small.jpg 03:01:42 <sim-al2> Perception is the key thing though, decent roads being regarded as new and liberating, and old slow railways as things of the past 03:02:00 <drac_boy> some people called these "mutant geeps" because they did really resemble a full gauge geep chopped down to the smaller gauge 03:02:03 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:03:01 <sim-al2> Narrow gauges didn't help too much either, as cargo would need to be transferred, unless of course it was something like a railway internal to a steel mill or logging operation 03:03:22 <drac_boy> actually many of the 60cm lines were self-serving ... transloading was rather rare 03:03:46 <drac_boy> eg the vines would had end up right at the brewery or so .. and even timer lines went all the way to the sawmill as was at the time 03:03:57 <drac_boy> timer=timber* 03:04:54 <drac_boy> quarry did sometimes have transloading but that was only as it was easier to send the truck or train to a single stockpile point whereas the 60cm lines spread out like a spider web to haul the initial raw supplies 03:06:25 <sim-al2> Those Class 91-000s worked on a network of narrow gauge that servered a quarry among other things, but since that quarry is now closed the utility of the narrow gauge lines is decreasing, and most of the locomotives have been sold 03:06:50 <drac_boy> oh and sim-a12 some of the logging railroads might had shared same gauge but they were treated as isolated non-connect lines as to avoid the "mainline" regulations/etc for example 03:06:59 <Flygon> I know the 762mm tourist lines here (namely, Puffing Billy) actually manage to haul some Freight 03:07:10 <Flygon> But it's mostly token (eg. some extra money on the side) 03:07:13 <drac_boy> you should had seen these crazy tracks they sometimes built (even a 4-4-0 would had derailed on them!) 03:07:19 <Flygon> And I'm 90% sure just local goods 03:08:11 <sim-al2> True about the regulations, but there's ways to overcome that, i.e. transit systems that remove rails at their recieving sidings except when needed 03:10:50 <Flygon> (Noting that Puffing Billy itself's kind of lucky it didn't go 762mm>1600mm... in fact, part of the line WAS! VR hated running NG lines. They only did so because Parliamet forced them to.) 03:10:58 <sim-al2> There were some narrow gauge railways in Colorado that were very important freight haulers in the local area, but of course that traffic declined over time, and died off as roads improved 03:11:46 <sim-al2> Yeah, I have to wonder how much money was really saved with narrow gauge railways when tunnelling wasn't needed 03:11:47 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heres something that I don't think would had been allowed as a standard railroad! heh http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/OPERATIONS/ERCLOps/3b._Shay_In_River_11.24.61_Steve_Patterson_CORR_Darker.jpg 03:11:49 <Flygon> (Parliament wanted EVERY town possible connected by Railway... VR did not want to build through dense rocky mountain range using 1600mm... cue the Government basically going "Fine, here's some $$$, build it as cheap as possible". VR still kinda all :| ) 03:11:54 <drac_boy> and that was for 10+ years just like THAT 03:12:26 <sim-al2> Yeah, the biggest problem with that is that the trackbed WILL washout with time, and make a big mess 03:12:27 <drac_boy> if you look you can see the actual tracks submerged under 03:13:01 <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. actually the tracks were nailed to fresh-from-nearby timbers .. and they only had to periodically move the mud out of the way 03:13:03 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:13:09 <sim-al2> Also, I'm sure the running gear doesn't like that either 03:13:27 <drac_boy> even the boiler water is taken directly from creeks from time to time 03:13:37 <Flygon> If you pre-fabbed Concrete and drilled it into the ground, with the rails bolted in 03:13:42 <Flygon> I don't think it'd wash out 03:13:47 <Flygon> But it's too expensive of a solution 03:14:05 <drac_boy> flygon yeah this is a maintenance railroad :P 03:14:32 <drac_boy> they only finally got a diesel locomotive....and kept it restrained to simply doing sawmill tracks shunting 03:15:11 <sim-al2> I've read about the log thing actually, the earliest railways were built that way, but the normal trackbed was superior for the way most railways operated 03:15:45 <sim-al2> Modern slab track designs are a bit like that, but include vibration-dampening elements 03:16:00 <drac_boy> btw if you want worser: just drop the track right onto ground with zero ballast ... and just hope your suspensions are all extra-soft :) 03:16:29 <sim-al2> Heh, I think log railways tended to be that, as the track was temporary anyway 03:16:53 <sim-al2> At least, compared to any other railway 03:17:02 <drac_boy> well some lowly weekly-freight-only lines actually had little or no ballast .. cue a GP7 crawling at notch 1 ... bobbling like weird :) 03:17:27 <drac_boy> of course by now FRA would had classed such lines as exempted and no traffic allowed 03:17:53 <sim-al2> Quite a few branch lines were run into the ground that way, just stopped doing mainteance and hoping that the ICC would allow abandonment 03:18:18 <sim-al2> Hmm, that's actually an Unclassified track rating, freight only with a maximum of 10mph 03:18:30 <drac_boy> actually you remind me..some of the open quarry railways in britian actually basically just drop the track wherever it was required and used nothing but 0-4-0T's to shunt these tippers/flatcars around 03:19:26 <sim-al2> I don't think the FRA actually blocks traffic unless it's putting people in danger, but unclassified track is usually in extremely poor condition 03:19:34 <drac_boy> in one instance it was actually a dumping ground so the tippers ran to end of line and dump there..then when it got too full they simply moved the track a few hundred meters west (or east whatever) from current position .. then continue tipping more there 03:20:43 <drac_boy> btw FRA does have a class 1 (or was it 10? I forgot how the sliding scale worked) condition where the line is just ok for 15-20kph freight but absolutely no passenger service of any kind allowed 03:21:58 <sim-al2> Exceptd track is freight only, 10mph, Class 1 is 10mph freight, 15mph passenger 03:22:03 * Flygon rubs forehead... 03:22:16 <Flygon> FRA regulations are too schitzophrenic for me to trust 03:22:40 <Flygon> Such as The Acela Express locomotives being required to be weighed down with so much concrete that it's actually a safety hazard 03:22:41 <drac_boy> flygon, I hate north america politics anyway (and yes . politic=law period) 03:22:41 <sim-al2> There's geometry requirements that have to be met, nothing more than that 03:22:42 <Flygon> As a safety feature 03:22:51 <Flygon> Nevermind the complete logic failure 03:23:09 <drac_boy> flygon heh yeah the acela was a dumb mess .. not to mention not even being able to run push-pull so cue two overpowered locomotives on a short train 03:23:11 <sim-al2> There's no concrete that I know of, it's just that Tier 2 collision standards are rather high 03:23:22 <drac_boy> I think it was only recently that the acela train had more coaches inserted 03:24:03 <sim-al2> Having two locomotives made acceleration better, allowing the train to actually take advantage of its higher speed rating 03:24:16 <drac_boy> sim-a12 not really 03:24:21 <sim-al2> Also, I think more coaches were intended in the first place 03:24:48 <drac_boy> one single aclea had more than enough power even in winter .. and beside .. 4 coaches weights almost nothing (comically a single FT could had hauled it if it wasn't for the newer track speed limits) 03:24:49 <Flygon> drac_boy: In my rather frank opinion 03:25:06 <sim-al2> Lots of the line between Philadelphia and New York is very curvy, and widening the curves will be expensive 03:25:08 <Flygon> The Acela route would be better served by, say, VLos, or something equivilant 03:25:14 <Flygon> They're crashproof enough >_> 03:25:22 <Flygon> ie. blowing past LX @ 200km/h 03:25:30 <sim-al2> So better acceleration means actually getting up to speed on the straight parts 03:25:34 <Flygon> Of course, you'd want to reengineer them for EMU operation 03:26:13 <sim-al2> Also, the Tier 2 regulations at the time didn't really allow for cab cars (I think this will change, if it hasn't already) 03:26:28 <Flygon> But even the DMU versions probably accelerate better... and I'm sure modern Hydralic Transmission can do 220km/h... 03:26:39 <drac_boy> oh and as a dumb footnote: many of the japan emus are only like 40-70% powered axles yet many of these are used in every-seconds-counts tight highspeed services eh? 03:26:46 <sim-al2> Umm, New York Pennsylvania Station 03:26:52 <sim-al2> No diesels allowed 03:27:19 <sim-al2> (without dual-mode capability) 03:27:31 <Flygon> sim-al2: Yeah, but I was making an observation xP 03:27:35 <sim-al2> Also, the whole line from Boston to DC is electrified 03:27:58 <Flygon> That an Australian DMU would probably handle the Acela service better than the current Acela stock does atm, ignoring all FRA regulaton 03:28:11 <Flygon> In reality, yes, you'd want EMUs with similar crashproofing standards 03:28:25 <sim-al2> Shinkansens have more powered-axles though 03:28:31 <drac_boy> btw sorry about this but getting a bit late here and I'm not sure about the clocks tomorrow either ... have fun anyway 03:28:41 <sim-al2> Ok, night 03:28:44 <Flygon> Night drac 03:28:57 <Flygon> sim-al2: To be clear, I mean locomotive-less, no locomotive :3 03:29:05 <Flygon> But FRA regulation mandates locomotives 03:29:24 <sim-al2> The N700s returned to having powered axles on all but the end cars for bettter performance and braking regeneration 03:29:50 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 03:29:55 * Flygon nod 03:30:18 <sim-al2> Flygon, those units better have tilt on them too, or they won't 03:30:24 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 03:30:27 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 03:30:36 <Flygon> The VLos aren't designed for Tilt 03:30:39 <sim-al2> Also, the speed limits are going up to 165mph 03:30:45 <Flygon> Which, imho, is a complete design flaw 03:30:56 <Flygon> Ahh, I thought they topped at 240km/h (140mph iirc) 03:31:16 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 03:31:39 <Flygon> VLo bodies and suspension can handle 220-230km/h well enough... but the Transmission and Motors didn't >_> 03:32:09 <sim-al2> Unfortunatly the average speed is much lower, but the new section through Rhode Island has long streches of 150mph (currently) 03:32:11 <Flygon> The only reason I'd suggest a modification of the VLocity design, is due to the Shinkansen EMUs not being designed to crash into a truck 03:32:27 <Flygon> If there was no level crossings 03:32:40 <Flygon> I'd just punch the "Import a Shinkansen N700 button" 03:32:47 <sim-al2> I think making a crash-rated Shinkansen would be easier 03:33:08 <Flygon> Easier than reengineering the DMU design for EMU? 03:33:27 <sim-al2> It's not like the modern Japanese trains aren't already being designed very carefully for passenger protection 03:33:39 <Flygon> Yeah, but they're designed to NOT crash 03:33:48 <Flygon> Not TO crash gracefully 03:34:46 <sim-al2> I don't see the advantage, and the JR East Shinkansens already operate in cold snowy conditions 03:35:07 <Flygon> Ooooh yeah, I forgot the USA gets far colder 03:35:22 <Flygon> The VLos only sometimes operate in Snow 03:36:02 <Flygon> http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/04/28/svTRAIN_wideweb__470x299,0.jpg And any xMU hitting a truck carrying rocks is going to have a bad day, regardless 03:36:15 <sim-al2> Bombardier is also not very popular with Amtrak, mainly because the HHP-8 locomotives were always trouble, and the Acela had all kinds of wheel and tilt problems early on 03:36:33 <Flygon> (most of the passengers came out alright... the 4 drivers didn't. Long story) 03:36:39 *** tiaz [~dude@2604:da00:2:3::2] has quit [Quit: it is time to be reborn] 03:36:48 <Flygon> Ooh 03:36:54 <Flygon> Yeah, I see the issue =/ 03:37:01 <Flygon> Bombardier's been nothing but fantastic for us 03:37:12 <Flygon> I guess different regional divisions have different standards 03:37:21 <sim-al2> Yeah, the collision ratings aren't really based on passenger forces, but more like buff strength and corner-post strength 03:37:26 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:38:03 <sim-al2> Unfortunatly, the buff strength rating is much higher than elsewhere, and scares manufacturers off because they can't reuse the body from their existing designs 03:38:30 <Flygon> With FRA standards? 03:39:11 <sim-al2> Yeah, I think the justification is that the car not be trashed if moved on the head-end of a freight train 03:39:17 <Flygon> Yeah, existing VLo designs (a branch of the design is used for commuter EMUs in Adelaide) aren't exactly designed to crash in the way the FRA wants 03:39:49 <sim-al2> There's been all kinds of official proposal for new standards, but it's taking a long time to happen 03:40:02 <Flygon> Whenever a VLo hits a car, it tends to result in the car being dragged by the DMU going from 160km/h to 0 >_> 03:40:26 <Flygon> The rock truck incident actually happened @ 120-130km/h 03:41:59 <sim-al2> Unfortunatly we have lots of railroad crossings still, so trucks have to be factored in safety concerns 03:42:34 <Flygon> Yeah. We do too. 03:42:53 <Flygon> Ideally.... we don't hit a truck. But if we do... well, as we found out, at least the passengers survived okay 03:42:58 <Flygon> http://www.rtbuvicloco.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/LocoLines-Edition-62.pdf Page 3... 03:43:08 <Flygon> The train-on-train crashes seem to actually be safer >_> 03:43:45 <Flygon> (VLo had a head-on with a Comeng due to speeding... and, probably, the Comeg's lights being broken. That last bit's still flamebait in the local rail community) 03:44:22 <Flygon> "For anyone who hasnât driven a V/Locity, they 03:44:23 <Flygon> roll very wellâprobably better than any 03:44:23 <Flygon> rolling stock in Victoriaâand can easily creep 03:44:23 <Flygon> up over the speed limit if youâre not watching 03:44:23 <Flygon> closely. " 03:44:29 <Flygon> Oh... that didn't copypasta well. Sorry. 03:45:28 <Flygon> But... yeah. I'm actually more worried about a train-on-truck incident locally than train-on-train 03:45:48 <Flygon> ...unless both're powering toward eachother headon, the train being hit will give way >_> 03:48:20 <sim-al2> Some of the recent crossing accidents have been rather ugly, and some concerns about new rolling stock design 03:48:39 * Flygon nod x: 03:48:50 <Flygon> There is only one real true solution, of course 03:51:51 <sim-al2> Expensive to get rid of level crossings in most places, as bridges or tunnels don't necessairly fit well 03:52:27 <sim-al2> Elevating the rail line would work, but that's beyond the funding level of most commuter agencies 03:53:30 <Flygon> Yeaah, elevating is the most sensible solution 03:53:33 <Flygon> With proper maintainence 03:53:39 <Flygon> The USA isn't good at the maintainence bit :( 03:54:52 <sim-al2> Noise would be a problem too, as the locomotives will be above people on the ground 03:55:48 <sim-al2> Also NIMBY-ism would be a barrier 04:00:16 <Flygon> ... 04:00:30 <Flygon> The noise is MORE easily mitigated with viaducts than at-ground 04:00:47 <Flygon> Noise barriers + Projecting all the noise UPWARDS, rather than horizontally 04:01:07 <sim-al2> Taking suburbs for example, people really hate structures being built 04:02:14 <sim-al2> Yeah, but without good track design, the concrete structures will radiate more noise outward. Also, consider that most commuter lines have at least a small amount of freight traffic too 04:02:24 <Flygon> Mm... 04:02:28 <Flygon> Ehh.. 04:02:32 <Flygon> Scuse my language 04:02:35 <Flygon> But fuck the NIMBYs 04:03:15 <sim-al2> Yeah, but they have money, and there's widespread disapproval of government projects at any level right now 04:06:00 <sim-al2> The projects that are getting done are the usual continuous improvements, i.e. track, station, etc 04:07:23 <sim-al2> A lot of systems here are also replacing older equipment, especially with promise of new lighter passenger coaches, as well as more powerful locomotives 04:11:14 * Flygon nod 04:11:21 <Flygon> Of course, my critique with that, specifically 04:11:34 <Flygon> Is the total focus on the loco+carriage arrangement 04:11:51 <Flygon> V/Line's been trying to obsolete it hard, due to it's operational restrictios 04:11:54 <Flygon> restrictions* 04:12:29 <sim-al2> Yeah, but often the commuter systems have to be flexible since they run a variety of lines, like Metra for example has these 8+ car rush-hour trains 04:13:15 <sim-al2> GO Transit, the Toronto commuter rail system, has done a lot of research into alternatives 04:14:04 * Flygon nod 04:14:06 <Flygon> What happens here is 04:14:10 <Flygon> Is we just tape VLos together 04:14:29 <Flygon> We're moving to 3 car sets, so the likely end result for, say, Geelong crush load, is 3+3+3 04:14:45 <Flygon> I'm expecting 12 car VLos in future, with a 3+3+3+3 arrangement 04:14:59 <Flygon> Which will also likely create a hole in the Ozone layer above Victoria 04:15:05 <sim-al2> They put out a study a year or so ago, that DMUs would be cost-effective only up to regular use as 4-6 car formations, compared to using diesel locomotives or going electric 04:15:29 <Flygon> 9000 horsepower for a single DMU can't be wrong 04:15:46 <Flygon> ...it needs 13 cars, to go over 9000 >_> 04:16:04 <sim-al2> Lol, DMUs would be rather useful if it weren't for the lack of infrastruture in many cities 04:16:40 <sim-al2> Amtrak already has a lot invested in their fleet of cars, and DMUs wouldn't do much for them 04:17:00 <Flygon> Lack of infrastructure? O_o 04:17:09 <sim-al2> There are a few DMU systems now 04:17:25 <Flygon> Half the reason we use the VLos so hard, is because they don't need much infrastructure :D 04:17:36 <Flygon> Just load fuel in, and they'll go anywhere, no turnarounds or anything :D 04:18:01 <sim-al2> I mean, cities in places like Ohio were they desperatly need transit systems but there's not real possibility of just building some stations and buying a few DMUs 04:19:30 <Flygon> Well... 04:19:36 <sim-al2> There's not really the long regional lines here anymore, it's either existing commuter systems, or new start 04:19:42 <Flygon> I wouldn't recommend DMUs for urban transit 04:19:49 <Flygon> They cost way too much to run 04:20:02 <Flygon> I bet you, VLo would rather run Electric versions of VLos if they could 04:20:36 <Flygon> But the Government doesn't want to stump up the cost for 200km/h capable 1500vDC, or adding 25kvAC to our existing electrical system, then making dual-voltage DMUs 04:21:08 <Flygon> The VLos are like Klingons 04:21:20 <sim-al2> In the sense of just starting something up, they would be nice. For example, there's a system being built in Sonoma and Marin counties in California (north of San Francisco) 04:21:24 <Flygon> They have a lot of redundant parts that render them nigh unkillable 04:21:35 <Flygon> But if something DOES break, it's a nightmare to do surgery on them 04:21:43 <Flygon> Because there's so many redundancy inside them... 04:21:47 <Flygon> And they're so mechanically comple 04:21:53 <sim-al2> They will be using this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/SMART_Rail_Rolling_Stock_%28Nippon_Sharyo_DMU%29.jpg 04:22:04 <Flygon> Ooh 04:22:12 <Flygon> I think I've seen those run about Africa 04:22:20 <Flygon> They're designed for 200km/h, iirc? 04:22:26 <sim-al2> 2 and 3 car trains, not particuarly low headways 04:22:45 <sim-al2> No, these are different, I think you've seen the Gautrain stuff in SA 04:22:52 * Flygon nod 04:22:59 <Flygon> Lemme check 04:23:18 <sim-al2> These are Nippon Sharyo, Japanese manufacturer that's a big deal in the US now 04:23:21 <Flygon> Ahh, no 04:23:25 <Flygon> Not the Gautrain 04:23:33 <Flygon> The ones I'm thinking of are SG 04:23:45 * Flygon nod 04:23:52 <sim-al2> These are good for 90mph, about 145 km/h 04:24:07 <Flygon> We don't have a huge much in the way of Japanese rollingstock here... there's a few historical reasons for this 04:24:17 <Flygon> tl;dr: The Japanese are stubburn, we're picky about how our stuff is built 04:24:21 <sim-al2> They have the same engines as the Vlocity btw, so I'm sure they could be run faster 04:24:55 <Flygon> They asked for our help with building DDEMUs in the 80s... then got into arguments with us about how to build DDEMUs. Nobody came out of it happy. 04:25:01 * Flygon nod* 04:25:05 <sim-al2> These are really meant for commuter/regional ops though, they don't have the facilties for more than a few hours runs 04:25:12 <Flygon> I understand it's a popular engine 04:25:47 <Flygon> The only DMUs I've seen that are really used for long distance are NSW's Xplorers 04:25:57 <Flygon> Such as the 11ish hour Broken Hill runs 04:26:00 <sim-al2> Yeah, seems to be all over the newer DMUs, worldwide 04:26:13 <Flygon> ...which are, incidentally, are the direct descendants of VLocities :D 04:26:25 <sim-al2> There's the WA Transwa DMUs too 04:26:41 <Flygon> Refit the transmission and engine, add a software update, and it's a VLocity for all intents and purposes :3 04:26:51 <Flygon> The TransWA DMUs are just VLocities with a different name :3 04:27:06 <Flygon> They came out about a year after, based on the same design 04:27:14 <sim-al2> In Hokkiado, the northern most Japanese islands there's long distance runs with tilting DMUs 04:27:21 <Flygon> Ooh, yeah 04:27:26 <Flygon> The ones that look like worms? 04:27:29 <Flygon> Out of TRON? 04:27:30 <sim-al2> lol 04:27:34 <Flygon> As in 04:27:38 <Flygon> If TRON had Worms 04:27:55 <sim-al2> Technically, the UK has some too, as the Voyagers often run across both electrified and non-electrified lines 04:27:58 <Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/JR_Hokkaido_Kiha_283_series_002.JPG These 04:28:29 <Flygon> Ahh, the Voyagers... 04:28:36 <Flygon> I do like the Voyagers :# 04:28:37 <Flygon> :3* 04:28:47 <sim-al2> Yeah, those. Unfortunatly, there was an accident where a driveshaft broke and caused a fire in a tunnel, that burned out the whole train 04:28:55 <Flygon> Fuck. Wow. x.x 04:29:01 <sim-al2> *JR Hokkiado 04:30:21 <sim-al2> No one got hurt, but the tilting was disabled and speed reduced from 130 km/h to 120 km/h. I'm not sure if the speeds and tilting will return, but the newest generation of equipment was canceled and will be more like the Kiha 261, which has air suspension tilting 04:31:58 <Flygon> Damn. :( 04:33:46 <sim-al2> The company was heavily criticized. It seems that in an attempt to get profitibility (despite being privatized, they are being funded by the Hokkiado government), they got rid of older experienced workers in favor of new-hires, and so the maintenace department was less experienced 04:34:20 <Flygon> Of course 04:34:24 <Flygon> The ONLY 04:34:38 <Flygon> ONLYYY reason JK Hokkaido is being bailed out by the Gov't 04:34:44 <Flygon> Is because, for all intents and purposes 04:34:46 <Flygon> They're bankrupt. 04:35:08 <Flygon> My friends and I suspect they'll get absorbed by JR East 04:35:09 <sim-al2> Some of the equipment is getting a bit older, the first Kiha 281's being from 1994, and they are heavily used 04:35:38 <Flygon> 1994 doesn't see that old... but 04:35:47 <Flygon> Japan has shorter lifecycles than Gaijin equipment >_> 04:36:05 <sim-al2> I don't know, if anything they will spin-off as much of the local lines as possible, keeping the Sapporo commuter traffic and the new Shinkansen 04:36:47 <sim-al2> Yeah, in this case it seems justified, as the conditions are harsh 04:36:57 <Flygon> Mm 04:37:19 <Flygon> The Shinkansen was suppose to save JR Hokkaido 04:37:27 <Flygon> But it's too little, too late, methinks 04:37:27 <sim-al2> I don't think 281s will be retired anytime soon, as long as the connection to the Shinkansen at Hakodate is needed 04:38:25 <sim-al2> Which could be like 2030 04:38:42 <Flygon> Dang 04:40:55 <sim-al2> Hmm, even weirder, the Shinkansen station is 18km away, so a shuttle train will be used (I think the diesel services will be extended there too, as the whole point of the new Shinkansen section right now is to make it a 2 seat ride to Tokyo, instead of 3 as current) 04:41:36 <sim-al2> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Tokyosapporotrainchart.png 04:44:33 <sim-al2> Currently the system is like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Map_of_Hokkaido_Shinkansen.png On the 26th, the section through the tunnel to Hakodate will open 04:45:50 <sim-al2> But, the section to Sapporo will take much longer, basically because of mountains making the job difficult 04:47:19 <sim-al2> The sleeper services will also be obsolete, at least in their current form, after the 26th 04:48:45 * Flygon nod 04:48:52 * Flygon scratches head 04:48:59 <Flygon> It's a shame we lack such ambition here 04:49:13 <Flygon> We can't even build a simple HSR line across one of the world's busiest air corridores 04:49:34 <sim-al2> This has been proposed since like the 70's, but financial difficulties put it off 04:51:19 <sim-al2> It took boring the world's longest undersea tunnel too, 53.9 km in total, 23.3 km undersea, but it was served with narrow gauge trains until now 04:51:58 <sim-al2> Now it is dual-gauge, since freight traffic is pretty big between Hokkiado and the rest of Japan 04:52:37 * Flygon nod 04:53:12 <Flygon> (I wouldn't really call it finacial difficulties, btw, so much as our Government lacks ambition) 04:53:19 <sim-al2> The initial speed for the Shinkansen will only be 140km/h, since freight trains will be run around the clock 04:53:30 <sim-al2> *through the tunnel 04:53:36 <Flygon> (We've had the capability to come up to building it since the 1950s... but we were too Roads focused) 04:54:10 <Flygon> (up to then, 160km/h services with NSWGR was regular, and VR had similar capabilities) 04:54:53 <Flygon> (it's really not hard for me to imagine either railway developing for 200-220km/h speeds by the 60s... if anyone had the foresight to) 04:54:58 <sim-al2> I think the privatized JRs, especially East and West, are still servicing debit from the JNR Shinkansen projects... 04:55:07 <Flygon> They are 04:55:15 <Flygon> I mean, they were privatized BECAUSE of the Shinkansen debt 04:55:46 <sim-al2> Yeah, lots of interesting things happened in the 80's as JNR played around with saving energy and money 04:56:13 <sim-al2> Including making basically all commuter/suburban trains stainless steel 04:56:21 <Flygon> O_o 04:56:57 <Flygon> What did they use before that? 04:57:03 <sim-al2> Lighter weight, when combined with improvments to old resistor-based traction control, like regenerative braking, helped a lot 04:57:10 <sim-al2> Just regular steel 04:58:01 <sim-al2> The old trains only used dynamic braking, so the modern ones have half the energy consumption of the old ones 04:58:24 * Flygon nod 04:58:32 <Flygon> I assumed they went fully stainless by the 70s 04:58:43 <sim-al2> Rather nice for the underground trains too, as it saves on air-conditioning and stuff 04:59:12 <sim-al2> Tokyu built a lot of stainless steel cars, since they became a licensor of Budd in the 60's 04:59:16 <Flygon> ...then again, VR somehow managed to have Stainless Steel trains rust just 7-10 years after they were built (the 'Hitachi' sets. Noting that Hitachi only supplied the builders, the bodies were built by someone else 04:59:20 <Flygon> VR were pissssssed >_> 04:59:38 * Flygon nod 05:00:55 <sim-al2> Also TRTA and other went for it, but there were also a number of aluminum cars 05:04:23 <sim-al2> Budd style trucks too: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/T%C5%8Dky%C5%AB_7000_series_EMU_011.JPG 05:04:42 <Flygon> Oh, that's why my 48 tile long trains are unprofitable 05:04:55 <Flygon> They're taking over a year to reach their destination @ 66km/h 05:05:02 <sim-al2> Damn 05:05:13 * Flygon nod 05:05:15 <sim-al2> What year? 05:05:26 <Flygon> 1927 05:05:35 <Flygon> They're Quadruple headed, to boot 05:05:41 <Flygon> The wagons only support 71km/h 05:06:11 <sim-al2> Ouch 05:07:14 <Flygon> If they were triple headed, they'd stall going up some of the hills =/ 05:07:22 <Flygon> I needthe AT&SF locos already... 05:08:03 <Flygon> And I thought my 12 tile long Coal trains hauled by a single Consolidation Loco were insane 05:08:13 <Flygon> But they only go downhill when full 05:09:06 <Flygon> They max at 71km/h due to downhill assist... but lose speed when they lose it 05:09:23 <Flygon> But by the time they hit their 'true' max speed, they're already braking at the station 05:09:52 <Flygon> Relaced them with SNCF 140C's 05:10:27 <Flygon> They don't fare much better, but it'll stop the game telling me my Consolidations are almost 60 years old 05:13:12 <Flygon> Very tempted to rename these 48 tile trains "Landships" 05:14:55 <Flygon> I'd use GWR 4900's if the Wagons had better speed limits 05:24:24 <sim-al2> Hmm, how much do the 48 tile trains make on delivery? 05:24:48 <Flygon> 320k 05:24:56 <Flygon> They'd make more if they weren't so slow 05:24:59 <Flygon> But they ARE profitable 05:25:07 <Flygon> Whel 05:25:07 <Flygon> p 05:25:12 <Flygon> Just shut down my first line 05:25:13 <sim-al2> Not too bad, how far do they travel? 05:25:19 <Flygon> Was run only by railbuses 05:25:54 <Flygon> Now replacing it with Buses and Trucks (Railbuses were 60km/h, RVs now can do 40km/h) 05:25:55 <Flygon> uuuh 05:25:59 <sim-al2> Heh, I almost never shut-down lines, although I sometimes do complete makeovers 05:26:01 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@201-34-114-69.paemt704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #openttd 05:26:38 <Flygon> Approximately 800 tiles, sim-al2 05:26:57 <Flygon> Want the .sav? 05:27:00 <sim-al2> sure 05:27:08 <sim-al2> Also, dammmmnnnnn 05:27:10 <Flygon> I need to shut the line down to make way for a new line xP 05:28:09 <Flygon> Where the eff does OTTD save it's stuff again... 05:28:15 <Flygon> I remember when times were simple 05:28:21 <Flygon> When games saved everything into /Program Data/ 05:29:02 <sim-al2> Documents\OpenTTD 05:29:12 <Flygon> Yeah, just found it 05:29:21 <Flygon> I never ever ever use My Documents xP 05:29:32 <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/Flurrail42.sav 05:30:23 <Flygon> It's, frankly 05:30:27 <Flygon> Not as realisitc as I'd like it 05:30:34 <Flygon> But operational costraints 05:30:48 <sim-al2> What map? I like 05:30:56 <Flygon> Iceland 05:31:02 <Flygon> It's on BaNaNas 05:31:40 <Flygon> Also, you can see where I removed the line xP 05:32:24 <sim-al2> Yeah, I though you meant something longer, I can see why you removed that 05:32:48 <Flygon> There's still one at Reykholt 05:33:16 *** Clockworker [Clockworke@201-34-114-69.paemt704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:33:30 <sim-al2> Oh wow, that's cool 05:34:02 <Flygon> But... yeah 05:34:15 <Flygon> A lot of people hate me for going for asesthetics over realism xP 05:34:25 <sim-al2> Hmm, looks like you should get the WCG-1 soon 05:34:35 <Flygon> WCG-1? 05:34:37 <sim-al2> Oh right, electric 05:35:06 <Flygon> I need to electricy the Garour lie 05:35:07 <sim-al2> I would add a siding to the railbus thing, moving the coal transfer train over to the side of the mine 05:35:07 <Flygon> line* 05:35:11 <Flygon> And, frankly, redesign it 05:35:17 <Flygon> It didn't become as useful as I thought it would be 05:40:19 <Flygon> Still wish Level Crossings supported more than Single Track x.x 05:41:59 <sim-al2> That belt of cities around Reykjavik looks really nice 05:42:24 <Flygon> Mm 05:42:27 <Flygon> I do want to let it sprawn further 05:42:30 <Flygon> sprawl* 05:42:38 <Flygon> But I'd want to 'add' additional towns in first 05:42:45 <Flygon> That exist IRL 05:42:51 <Flygon> But that's for North 05:42:58 <Flygon> For South, only thing stopping me is procrastination 05:46:05 <Flygon> Also, listening to the DMG Smurfs music while playing OTTD is ridiculously calming 05:49:35 <Flygon> I'd release a 'remastered' version of the Iceland map with the towns missing added 05:49:43 <Flygon> But I don't think the author'd like that 05:49:51 <Flygon> I'd like to make a Victoria map 05:49:57 <Flygon> Of Australia state 05:49:58 <Flygon> But... 05:50:27 <Flygon> There's no way to simultainiously support Desert, Arid Grass, Lush Grass, Arctic Grass, and Snow simultainiously 05:50:37 <Flygon> Victoria's both a Desert climate, and Sub-Arctic Climate >_> 05:50:56 <Flygon> ...the Stork theme 05:51:08 <Flygon> The guy was clearly paid too much, he did a bang-up job 05:51:44 <sim-al2> Yeah, you can play around in the scenario editor to get some decent sub-tropical going, but I don't know about snow and different grass 05:51:51 <Flygon> Yeah 05:51:54 <Flygon> You can see the issue =/ 05:52:02 <Flygon> And there's no way to LOCALIZE snow 05:52:06 <Flygon> If, say 05:52:14 <Flygon> A 8192*8192 map was possible 05:52:23 <Flygon> And I was feeling exeptionally unlazy 05:52:49 <Flygon> It'd be impossible to capture the VIC/NSW/TAS Alpine Ranges without making it snow on Uluru, and Grassy in the Simpson 05:53:09 <Flygon> But going by Desert climate, suddenly it's Dried up in Tasmania 05:53:28 <Flygon> When I'd more compare the Tasmanian climate to... a slightly less oppressive Norway 06:11:55 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:4950:b5e4:4af5:2c54] has joined #openttd 06:15:35 <Flygon> Heheh... 06:15:44 <Flygon> One of Iceland's Highways is route 420 06:15:46 <Flygon> Heheheheheheheh 06:15:54 <Flygon> Still waiting for Route 621 06:16:38 <sim-al2> I think Colorado stop replacing the Milepost 420 after it got stolen a few times 06:17:30 <sim-al2> Looks like with 3rd gen tankers, your train will be "only" 33 tiles to have the same capacity 06:18:06 <Flygon> Didn't they replace it with 419.99? 06:18:13 <Flygon> sim-al2: I'll keep the same length 06:18:16 <Flygon> But use less trains 06:18:25 <sim-al2> Yeah, some fraction 06:19:36 <sim-al2> I actually think you need more trains, because some oil is decaying because the station rating is low 06:20:07 <Flygon> btw, with the scenario, note I can't type accents on my keyboard (US Settings) 06:20:19 <Flygon> And a lot of 'area' names are just best guesses 06:22:16 <Flygon> I'd love more trains 06:22:19 <Flygon> But I lack the $$$ 06:22:32 <Flygon> It's around .5m per train 06:26:11 <Flygon> I do say 06:26:22 <Flygon> If I started in 1977 instead of 1877 06:26:28 <Flygon> There'd be WAAAAAY more Road Vehicles 06:26:40 <Flygon> Due to Iceland's... Icelandicness 06:32:54 <Flygon> sim-al2: There's also other more pragmatic reasons 06:33:18 <Flygon> Such as only wanting to manually rebuild a few small trains when I get access to the AT&SF 06:33:26 <Flygon> Then the Big Boy 06:33:39 <Flygon> The Big Boy likely sticking around until the 80s 06:33:41 <sim-al2> Good point 06:33:48 <Flygon> Which's an issue, because they expire before then 06:33:54 <Flygon> But no other loco quite bes good enough 06:35:12 <sim-al2> DDA40X? 06:36:26 <Flygon> Forgot the 2CC set has that 06:36:37 <Flygon> Still, it does require rejiggig the entire consist again 06:36:44 <Flygon> The key issue being the lack of TE 06:37:32 <sim-al2> It's still pretty high, around 500-600 kN 06:37:42 * Flygon nod 06:37:52 <Flygon> Running off memory here, I'll note 06:41:54 <Flygon> I think Airships are bugged O_o 06:41:58 <Flygon> They fly reeaaaallly low 06:43:24 <Flygon> I just wish I had better Seaships 06:43:35 <Flygon> And the ability to turn Mail off x.x 06:45:05 <Flygon> Annd Vittuuuuu 06:45:11 <Flygon> I gotta rebuild Kisubla Junction 07:04:15 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 07:04:18 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:43:53 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:44:01 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1813C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:45:04 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 07:51:28 <Flygon> Njarovik is a pain to rearrange... @_@ 07:53:09 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.136.141.100] has joined #openttd 07:54:00 <sim-al2> Even in the save you gave me it's pretty tight 07:55:18 <Flygon> It's been made even tighter 07:55:24 <Flygon> Prepping for another two Pax. platforms 07:56:58 <Flygon> Which means Njarovik town itself is... uhm 07:57:01 <Flygon> Gonna be stuffed 07:57:07 <Flygon> UNLESS 07:57:14 <Flygon> I completely redo the freight bypass... 07:58:13 <Flygon> No... there's not enough room 07:58:39 <Flygon> It's one of those things where flexi-viaducts would be very very helpful 08:02:00 <Flygon> But rearranging everything AGAIN will be a nightmare 08:02:15 <Flygon> To separate 'express' passenger and freight 08:02:30 <Flygon> I'm only prepping for the 'stopper' passenger line. For 15 years time. 08:02:34 <Flygon> for in* 08:04:08 *** Smedles [~quassel@58.160.136.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:43 *** Smedles [~quassel@58.160.136.199] has joined #openttd 08:05:54 <Flygon> Oooooh, shit yeah. Got access to the AT&SF now 08:07:04 <Flygon> Replacing 4x SSB C 5/6's (1,643hp, 215kN) w/1x AT&SF 5000 (5,779hp, 481kN) will save soooooooooooooooooooo much money 08:08:48 <Flygon> Oh my god 08:08:52 <Flygon> These 3rd Gen tankers 08:09:02 <Flygon> This's 1.5m/ltrs to 4.3m/ltrs per train 08:10:19 <Flygon> Still gonna replace with Big Boys, mind 08:10:23 <Flygon> But for now 08:10:25 <Flygon> It's the best 08:10:38 <Flygon> Esp. with me struggling to print $$$ 08:10:59 <Flygon> The trains are cheaper, to boot 08:11:13 <Flygon> It's no wonder these locos got invented IRL 08:12:35 <Flygon> The real issue is 08:12:39 <Flygon> The trains are so long 08:12:45 <Flygon> They're a nightmare to get in and out of depots 08:15:25 <Flygon> Alright 08:15:29 <Flygon> First fully loaded about to take off 08:15:53 <Flygon> Taking of with Gravity assist 08:16:45 <Flygon> Aw yis 08:16:47 <Flygon> 80km/h 08:16:53 <Flygon> But with downhill assist 08:17:22 <Flygon> Oh der... 08:17:27 <Flygon> It loses speed climing Hills 08:17:33 <Flygon> But still faster than the C 5/6's 08:17:46 <Alberth> live comment on game progress :) 08:18:06 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 08:18:11 <Flygon> Bottomed out at 66km/h, thank christ @_@ 08:18:13 <Alberth> lo andy 08:18:18 <Flygon> Oh 08:18:21 <Flygon> Read the wrong window 08:18:26 <Flygon> It bottomed at 69km/h >_> 08:19:52 <Flygon> 62km/h... 08:20:21 <Alberth> nah, < 20 km/h is slow :) 08:20:56 <Flygon> Oh, certainly. I'm just even more impatient for Big Boys now :D 08:22:16 <Flygon> What's gonna really suck, is replacing the double headed trains with single headed trains >_> 08:22:45 <Flygon> Kinda wishing OTTD had a replace consist with new consist feature... buuut... that's already been requested :D 08:24:17 <andythenorth> many times 08:24:35 <andythenorth> itâs one of the few worthwhile missing features imho 08:25:07 <Flygon> I aint gonna jab too hard about it 08:25:15 <Flygon> I've upset the coders too many times 08:25:23 <Flygon> I'm grateful for what we got 08:27:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: youâre slightly familiar with newgrf parameter window? 08:27:33 <Alberth> "slightly"? :) perhaps :) 08:27:38 <sim-al2> There's a Template Replace patch, you can find it in JGR's patchpack 08:28:02 <Alberth> depends on the precise topic 08:28:25 <andythenorth> wondering about parameter groups 08:28:41 <Alberth> :O 08:28:44 <andythenorth> progressive disclosure on a â+â â-â type thing, like settings 08:29:00 <andythenorth> I think itâs lipstick on a pig really 08:29:09 <andythenorth> newgrf _shouldnât_ have so many parameters 08:29:21 <Alberth> do these exist eg in action 14? 08:29:23 <V453000> pigpigpig 08:29:30 <Alberth> hi hi V 08:30:19 <Alberth> do you know your nuts have a gap in early multi-engine setup? 08:30:20 <V453000> hy 08:30:26 <V453000> ? 08:31:18 <Alberth> I'll take that as a "no", let me make a picture 08:31:38 *** kais58_ [~kais58@88.98.85.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:33:24 <andythenorth> I think it would be quite easy to add group in action 14 08:33:40 <andythenorth> just add a group keyword, anything declaring that string goes in the group 08:34:12 <andythenorth> order within the group is derived from order of items when declared, as currently 08:34:29 <Alberth> V453000: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/sideview.png http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/downhill.png 08:34:37 <andythenorth> âgroup = advanced_settingsâ or so on 08:35:03 <andythenorth> and also a declaration for a name string for the group 08:35:11 *** kais58_ [~kais58@88.98.85.222] has joined #openttd 08:35:18 <V453000> Alberth: consistency and 8/8 vehicles with small sprites :P 08:35:59 <Alberth> I don't remember having consistent gaps :D 08:36:20 <Alberth> but fair enough :) 08:36:50 <V453000> was there since version 0.0.1 08:37:47 <andythenorth> hmm 08:39:16 * andythenorth scratching head 08:40:44 <V453000> Alberth: today I would probably solve it by articulating a short wagon for 8/8 08:41:14 <V453000> might still do it one day 08:41:39 <Alberth> sounds like magic :) 08:41:55 <Alberth> was just letting you know I found it, nothing else 08:42:23 <V453000> wat magic? :D that it is visually shorter than logically? 08:44:04 <Alberth> no, "articulating a short wagon for 8/8" sounds like magic :) 08:44:24 <Alberth> no doubt it's trivial if you know it 08:46:06 <V453000> eh it would be 4/8 engine + 4/8 wagon = 8/8 total 08:46:32 <V453000> all NUTS vehicles are 16/8 in total so it would just be 4/8 engine + 3x 4/8 wagons 08:51:13 *** Arveen [~Arveen@ip-95-223-75-47.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #openttd 08:54:33 <andythenorth> newgrf parameters should have a console option :P 08:55:00 <andythenorth> console is the antidote to all over-loaded GUIs 09:04:12 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host220-239-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 09:04:21 <Wolf01> o/ 09:06:01 * Wolf01 returned to everyday life :( 09:09:04 <Alberth> the plane wouldn't leave without you? 09:09:38 <Alberth> fwiw, we're glad to have you back 09:11:29 <Alberth> andy: yep, people are too fond of 1000 words images where 1 word would suffice :) 09:15:24 <Wolf01> oh, the return plane was awful and I would have been really happy if it left without me 09:15:57 <Wolf01> I still have some back pain 09:18:18 * Wolf01 is logging into the bank account to check if the Kobe beef payment has been processed successfully 09:18:19 <Alberth> :( 09:18:49 <Wolf01> 500⬠one dinner for 4 people :P 09:19:20 * Wolf01 would do it again 09:20:21 <V453000> gg 09:20:33 <Wolf01> mmh, I think the web will be off limits for the entire day... steam, battle.net and windows 10 all updating 09:22:30 *** frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:22:38 <Wolf01> quak 09:23:00 <frosch123> Hoi 09:23:09 <V453000> too many factorio saves on steam cloud? :P 09:23:47 <frosch123> Already? 09:26:46 <andythenorth> lo frosch123 09:27:12 <Wolf01> oh, I got kidnapped by the security at Schiphol, when the police station prepared my passport, they made a mistake with the plastification and it feels strange at touch... 09:27:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: we decidsd against Setting Trees för Ai/gs/newgrf before 09:28:33 <Wolf01> the funny part is "we made a mistake, but you shouldn't have any problem" 09:28:34 <andythenorth> no newgrf should ever need a settings tree.... 09:31:30 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1813C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:24 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:36:04 <V453000> xd 09:36:08 <V453000> how many parameters andythenorth 09:37:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: originally i also wanted to display the current production level as bonus 09:37:47 <frosch123> But it looked weird, soi changed it to an absolute percentage 09:38:10 <andythenorth> V453000: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7689/FIRS_2_params.png 09:38:22 <V453000> 's fine 09:38:28 <andythenorth> station rating should be deleted 09:38:45 <andythenorth> prevent industry opening, I donât even know why I have that there 09:38:56 <V453000> yeah the station rating improving is just a cheat for no reason 09:39:01 <V453000> except andy likes to play with RVs :P 09:39:21 <Alberth> disabling breakdowns is also a cheat :p 09:39:23 <andythenorth> it was to enable using one long train per industry 09:39:27 <andythenorth> ârealistic' 09:39:35 <andythenorth> now I just always have a train waiting, 5 tiles :P 09:39:46 * andythenorth has smoked coop crack 09:40:29 <andythenorth> station ratings should be a separate grf tbh 09:41:33 <andythenorth> so +1 to deleting that? 09:49:01 <frosch123> Separate grf sounds fine 09:51:21 * andythenorth might not _make_ the separate grf :P 09:51:26 <andythenorth> more of a theoretical solution 10:00:31 *** Clockworker [Clockworke@187-4-5-88.paemt702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #openttd 10:00:35 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-195-191.gdiv2.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 10:02:26 <andythenorth> âPrevent industries opening during gameplay" 10:02:32 <andythenorth> that is not trivial for another newgrf to do 10:02:41 <andythenorth> do I have to keep that? 10:06:18 <frosch123> I guess so 10:07:04 <frosch123> Don't remove stuff for removal's sake? 10:07:06 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@201-34-114-69.paemt704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:11:08 <andythenorth> overwhelming number of parameters currently :) 10:13:07 <andythenorth> hah 10:13:17 <andythenorth> custom station ratings _canât_ be a separate grf 10:13:22 <Alberth> ever looked at a basecost mod grf? :p 10:13:25 <andythenorth> itâs cargo-specific, and FIRS provides the cargos 10:13:48 <andythenorth> yes, basecost grf is terrifying 10:15:08 <V453000> it isn't that overwhelming when compared to the shitload of content firs has 10:15:13 <V453000> don't worry about too many parameters 10:15:23 <V453000> being able to see the behavior of industries is very good to have 10:15:33 <frosch123> What is cargo specific about it? 10:15:41 <andythenorth> itâs a callback from the cargo 10:15:49 <andythenorth> there is nothing specific to the cargos though 10:15:54 <frosch123> Isn't it the same for all cargos? 10:15:56 <andythenorth> yup 10:16:03 <andythenorth> another grf could override that for every cargo? 10:16:05 <andythenorth> brute force? 10:16:14 <frosch123> So, not firs specific 10:16:27 <frosch123> Ithinkso 10:16:30 <andythenorth> yay 10:16:34 <andythenorth> win 10:17:14 <andythenorth> V453000: so what values are you going to set? o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7689/FIRS_2_params.png 10:17:20 <andythenorth> and why? 10:17:48 <V453000> would probably give more gung ho bonus 10:17:56 <V453000> but really, I would have to play and see 10:18:17 <V453000> if the defaults are working, then many parameters don't hurt at all 10:19:31 * andythenorth gives up starting quite often because it takes so long to set all the parameters, game settings, map options 10:19:51 <andythenorth> gamescript, town names, drive side, lang 10:19:53 <andythenorth> currency 10:21:32 <V453000> yes 10:21:41 <V453000> because the newgrfs you are using have not great defaults? 10:22:50 <andythenorth> nah 10:22:54 <Alberth> too many settings 10:23:00 <andythenorth> mostly I made them, mostly they donât have params 10:23:02 <andythenorth> or few 10:23:12 <andythenorth> if I want different behaviour, I recompile them 10:23:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: if mines and farms had same supply requirement, we could express it in actual cargo value? 10:24:15 <andythenorth> ports can just be 2x that as a special case, or whatever, player doesnât really need to worry about ports 10:25:03 <andythenorth> parameter description could mention that ports need more 10:25:20 <Alberth> andy: do you want more "this industry can practically throw its production to the receiving industry" reports? 10:25:26 <andythenorth> yes 10:25:28 <frosch123> Yes, ports are the only weird thing 10:25:49 <andythenorth> the lower threshhold for farms could be historical 10:26:00 <andythenorth> now the clustering is wider, and the base production is higher 10:26:15 <frosch123> I guess displaying the farm amount is good 10:26:28 <andythenorth> Iâll unify farm and mine requirements 10:26:44 <frosch123> Don't talk about ports :p 10:27:50 <andythenorth> just a thing you have to learn? 10:33:08 <frosch123> I never bothered how much i delivered to a port 10:33:17 <andythenorth> so base requirements are 14 for farms and 21 for ports 10:33:21 <andythenorth> oops 10:33:23 <andythenorth> 21 for mines 10:33:33 <frosch123> Primary Industries are the important ones 10:33:37 <andythenorth> and gung ho is just 4x the base 10:34:17 <andythenorth> I am wondering about making them multiples of 8 or so 10:34:19 <frosch123> Weren't ports like 10x requirements? 10:34:21 <andythenorth> yes 10:34:26 <andythenorth> or so 10:34:30 <andythenorth> 160 base 10:35:03 <andythenorth> 24 / 48 / 96 / 192 / 384 / 768 and so on 10:35:06 <andythenorth> does that work? 10:35:08 <frosch123> I don't get your gungho comment then 10:35:22 <andythenorth> yeah, sorry 10:35:30 <andythenorth> I will paste 10:35:37 <frosch123> Just make it a integer setting 10:35:47 <frosch123> Easier for everyone 10:36:10 <frosch123> A combobox is quite complex to code 10:36:49 <frosch123> Minimum 1, maximum 10k 10:36:56 <andythenorth> so absolute values? 10:37:05 <frosch123> Yes 10:37:06 <andythenorth> rather than a multiplier (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x) etc? 10:37:22 <andythenorth> I find the arrows weird to use on the integer inputs 10:37:27 <frosch123> Wasn't that the point? 10:37:31 <andythenorth> click, click, click, click, incrementing one at a time 10:38:23 <frosch123> Extend the description with a hint that you can doubleclick the row? 10:39:33 <frosch123> Anyway, those who want to change stuff in the first place also want to control all details? 10:39:59 <frosch123> Who would use presets? 10:42:33 * andythenorth :P 10:42:55 * andythenorth often thinks that those who most want to control stuff should also learn to code :P 10:43:48 <andythenorth> so this is the first change Iâll make https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdgfk4i4j 10:45:32 <Alberth> a lot simpler to wrap your head around 10:45:46 <frosch123> In my game i lowered enhanced, and increased gungho reqs 10:46:22 <frosch123> I would also recomment that for defaults 10:47:29 <andythenorth> what did you lower enhanced to? 10:48:42 <Alberth> "1" :p 10:48:48 <frosch123> Like 5 or so 10:49:08 <frosch123> Basically 'any' 10:49:13 <Alberth> hmm, micro-managing distributors go wild :) 10:49:20 <andythenorth> you had vehicles that small? o_O 10:49:37 <frosch123> While gungho required a lot of focus 10:49:42 <andythenorth> sounds like the older âdeliver anyâ behaviour that seemed to be hated :D 10:50:06 <frosch123> It was some heqs railmotor with cap 4 or so 10:50:51 <Alberth> andy: those who hated it can adjust it now :) 10:50:51 <andythenorth> ah heqs :) 10:50:59 * andythenorth hasnât used heqs forâŠsome time 10:51:07 <andythenorth> weird grf 10:51:11 <Alberth> :) 10:51:13 <Alberth> bbl 10:51:20 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 10:51:32 * andythenorth wonders if 16 and 128 are good thresholds 10:52:04 <frosch123> Also sounds fine 10:53:15 <andythenorth> 8x the required cargo for 2x the production :) 10:53:33 <andythenorth> but I might change the default production also 10:53:40 <andythenorth> 150% for enhanced 10:53:47 <andythenorth> dunno what for gung ho 10:58:10 * andythenorth wonders what the upper limits are for requirements express in crates 11:00:39 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6D7BF.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:08:13 <frosch123> Night 11:08:17 *** frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: meh] 11:10:03 * andythenorth wonders what timezone frosch is on 11:47:34 <Wolf01> night? 11:49:11 <Wolf01> mmh, I would like multi storey stations 12:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, given his usual nighttime of 23:00 (+0100), it would mean he's now either +14 or -10 :p 12:11:20 <Eddi|zuHause> plus a bit of variation in night time, could be california or hawaii 12:12:50 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 12:13:12 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 12:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, it's probably not california, too late there 12:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> could also be new zealand 12:18:22 <Wolf01> or japan, maybe I even met him 12:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> japan is probably too early 12:19:24 <andythenorth> does FIRS _need_ to show how much extra production you get for develiering delivering supplies? 12:19:28 <andythenorth> delivering * 12:20:03 <andythenorth> ââŠto increase production 360%âŠâ is ugly 12:20:06 <Wolf01> its 21:20 12:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but he probably doesn't go to bed at 20:00 :p 12:20:44 <Wolf01> I did :P 12:21:11 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Australia IIRC 12:22:34 <andythenorth> itâs 22:22 in brisvegas 12:22:54 <andythenorth> maybe heâs gone to see Pikka 12:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that could be also, but my brain cannot handle daylight shifts in the southern hemisphere :p 12:23:12 <andythenorth> I have a phone app for it :P 12:23:22 * andythenorth calls australia about 4 times a week 12:24:11 <andythenorth> hmm 12:24:30 <andythenorth> does FIRS industry window need to show *any* information at all about production level / supplies requirement? 12:24:35 <andythenorth> can I just delete that? 12:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes/no 12:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> games which have no indication as to their mechanics are terrible 12:31:04 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:39 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:45:31 <andythenorth> is it also terrible to have âincrease by 360%' 12:45:32 <andythenorth> ? 12:45:36 <andythenorth> 360% of what? 12:45:38 <andythenorth> base production? 12:45:41 <andythenorth> current production? 12:59:31 *** kubast2 [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has joined #openttd 13:15:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's just a matter of HOW to display it 13:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> not about not displaying it at all 13:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "production level: medium; next production level: 12/50 supplies per month" 13:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> also, gtg 13:19:25 <andythenorth> bye 13:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's election day. the current government might be voted out. and no new government in sight. 13:20:18 <andythenorth> larks 13:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and the fun part is, the "current government" is already both the labour and the conservative party together 13:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> if they both combined get <50%, you know something is not right :p 13:30:38 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 13:35:38 *** _johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-229-44.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 13:44:55 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest7707 13:44:57 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 13:45:30 <Wolf01> "Running biters over with a car or tank will make them aggressive in peaceful mode" meh... :D 13:47:29 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:48:44 *** Guest7707 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:11:04 <V453000> :) 14:30:44 *** _johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-229-44.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:32:43 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 14:40:22 *** gelignite [~gelignite@f048080156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 14:54:42 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 14:54:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 14:56:59 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 14:57:12 <Alberth> hi hi 15:08:31 *** kubast2 [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:11:23 <andythenorth> ugh, the text stack 15:16:52 <Alberth> nml doesn't do magic there? 15:17:41 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:25:54 <andythenorth> seems it does 15:26:06 <andythenorth> if I didnât have example from frosch, Iâd never have figured it out though :) 15:26:12 <andythenorth> needs OR and shift 15:32:26 <Alberth> sounds tricky for some text 15:32:45 <Alberth> :O 896 ton of metal from a steel mill :) 15:34:36 <Alberth> some idiot built it on a mountain, which is clear a bad place for such a thing :p 15:35:51 <andythenorth> ha ha 15:45:11 <andythenorth> 1000% production for gung ho is ridiculous :P 15:46:05 <andythenorth> 35000 items of livestock per month 15:46:22 <andythenorth> or itâs a bug eh? 15:46:47 <Alberth> hmm, must do supplies to the mill :p 15:47:04 <Alberth> but yeah, sounds a bit much-ish :p 15:47:28 <andythenorth> itâs a bug :P 15:47:33 <andythenorth> the supplies code is brain-numbing 15:48:31 <Alberth> 3500 does sound like a lot already as input 15:50:17 *** kubast2 [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has joined #openttd 15:51:31 * andythenorth fixes that 15:52:02 <andythenorth> I donât think the % boost is needed in industry window 15:53:41 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7691/industry_window_new_production_params.png 15:53:48 <andythenorth> ^ I donât think more than that is needed 15:54:10 <andythenorth> if player wants to know what boost, just watch the window for a month 15:54:17 <andythenorth> or check the parameter value they set :P 15:54:30 <andythenorth> or trust the defaults :P 15:54:41 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:55:09 *** kubast2_ [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has joined #openttd 15:55:23 *** kubast2_ [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has quit [] 15:58:15 <Alberth> people like numbers :p 15:58:50 <Alberth> ever seen those city builder scripts? they just dump a silly amount of numbers in the window :p 15:58:56 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:59:22 <andythenorth> donât they just 15:59:28 <andythenorth> then the players ask what it all means 15:59:51 <andythenorth> I should put a note in the window: âItâs not about industry numbers, go and build some more trains" 16:02:28 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 16:05:15 <Alberth> :) 16:30:32 *** kubast2 [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:33:51 <andythenorth> dunno, I do prefer it with fewer numbers 16:34:05 <andythenorth> enough numbers in that window already 16:34:12 <andythenorth> not sure frosch will agree :| 16:36:19 <Alberth> yep, less numbers is better 16:37:14 <V453000> :( 16:37:17 <V453000> numbers are ok 16:37:17 <_dp_> moar numbers! 16:37:36 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:44:01 * andythenorth invents evil FIRS 16:44:08 <andythenorth> âEnhancedâ production: 50% 16:44:13 <andythenorth> âGung hoâ production: 25% 16:44:14 <andythenorth> :P 16:44:49 <_dp_> bad firs, won't get any supplies :p 16:45:59 <andythenorth> whatâs the minimum sensible value for enhanced, as % of production? 16:46:02 <andythenorth> 100? 101? 16:46:54 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:46:58 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 16:49:56 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:49:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 16:52:26 * andythenorth leaving a code mess :P 16:53:54 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:55:10 <_dp_> 0? ^^ 16:55:23 <_dp_> would make for a nice way of screwing up competitors xD 16:56:14 <andythenorth> yup 17:03:31 <peter1138> hi 17:07:33 <andythenorth> lo planetmaker 17:07:36 <andythenorth> err 17:07:47 * andythenorth will now leave in embarassment, auto-complete fail 17:07:57 <andythenorth> hi peter1138 17:09:58 <andythenorth> in what kind of lexical sort ir âplâ before âpeâ ? :P 17:13:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: ? o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7692/FIRS_2_prod_parameters_2.png 17:15:20 <Alberth> sneakily hiding a few parameters :p 17:15:30 <Alberth> looks easy to understand to me 17:15:57 <Alberth> you mention the "three months" period in the supply crate counts? 17:16:02 <andythenorth> yeah 17:16:10 <andythenorth> Iâm not even sure that quite works 17:17:04 <Alberth> maybe we should have a "numbers" cargo :) 17:17:20 <andythenorth> ha 17:17:25 <andythenorth> required: 50 numbers 17:17:55 <andythenorth> I think this bit is done, but Iâm not sure what to do about the ports 17:18:00 <Alberth> would make great cargo graphics :p 17:18:17 <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXfvAjZjFk 17:22:10 <Alberth> +1 17:22:59 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-195-191.gdiv2.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 17:23:26 <V453000> nice 17:23:56 <andythenorth> currently the âamount requiredâ parameter doesnât affect ports 17:24:03 <andythenorth> but the âamount producedâ parameter doe 17:24:05 <andythenorth> does * 17:24:07 <andythenorth> :P 17:24:18 * andythenorth might ship it that way and see what happens 17:25:08 * andythenorth wonders if this could have been two parameters instead 17:25:26 <andythenorth> 1) âSupply requirements: low | medium | high | very high | insane' 17:25:42 <andythenorth> 2) âEffect of supplies: low | medium | high | very high | insane' 17:30:57 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:31:26 <Alberth> none :p 17:32:17 <Alberth> trouble is a bit what the base of gung ho is 17:32:41 <Alberth> is "low" relative to enhanced or to standard production? 17:32:55 <Alberth> but I like names :) 17:37:13 * andythenorth can see no good solution :D 17:41:14 <andythenorth> maybe I split ports production template, for starters :P 17:41:18 <andythenorth> and take ports out of this 17:44:41 <Alberth> haven't played with ports yet, still working on the steel mill tracks :p 17:44:53 <Alberth> what is the problem with them? 17:45:41 <andythenorth> they use the same code for boosting production as mines, farms etc 17:45:55 <Alberth> it's a pity you cannot have some values be represented by a name :) 17:46:06 <andythenorth> ? o_O 17:46:58 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:47:15 <Alberth> then you could have numbers, but have some nice name for some of them, indicating a sort of recommended value :) 17:48:05 <Alberth> how is using the same code a problem? 17:48:17 <Alberth> that's an internal issue right? 17:48:46 *** _johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-229-44.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 17:49:11 <Alberth> ie I don't care if you have completely separate code for each industry or not :p 17:49:37 <andythenorth> itâs more that the behaviour is connected 17:49:44 <andythenorth> but not in a way that is easy to represent to player 17:49:56 <andythenorth> so farm needs 16 units for âEnhancedâ, port needs 160 17:50:11 <andythenorth> farm needs 128 units for âGung hoâ, port needs 480 17:50:23 <andythenorth> they seem quite different to me 17:50:28 <Alberth> why the difference? 17:50:43 <Alberth> oh, you have only one enhanced setting 17:50:49 <andythenorth> ports have 3 input cargos, all of them tend to be quite widely available 17:51:03 <andythenorth> ports are ridiculously easy with lower requirements 17:51:09 <Alberth> make enhanced + gungho settings for ports? 17:51:34 <andythenorth> moar parameters 17:51:40 <andythenorth> maybe thatâs the only answer :) 17:52:11 <Alberth> you have less than 10 or so, doesn't look like a problem to me 17:52:23 <Alberth> as long as they have a clear meaning 17:53:24 <Alberth> you ever looked at the number of parameters of BB? :p 17:53:28 <andythenorth> yes 17:53:38 <Alberth> it's ridiculous for such a script :) 17:53:54 <andythenorth> I often find I have set them wrong :) 17:54:14 <andythenorth> the town cargoes goal params I always leave at default :) 17:54:15 <Alberth> defaults are fixable :p 17:55:12 <Alberth> the duration is too long perhaps, we didn't change it after modifying how it reacts to deliveries 17:56:50 <andythenorth> for BB? 17:57:20 <Alberth> but imho, ports parameters are clear in meaning. It also makes more clear that ports are different from normal industries 17:57:40 * andythenorth wonders if âGung hoâ can always just be 2x âEnhanced' 17:57:47 <andythenorth> does anyone really need to change that? 17:58:01 <Alberth> yes for BB, first the duration was for total delivery, now it's time to the next delivery, always 17:58:29 <Alberth> likely they will need 17:58:46 <andythenorth> hmm 17:58:50 <andythenorth> probably 17:59:12 <Alberth> you could reduce to one, as a multiplier from enhanced 17:59:22 <Alberth> but that saves you only one settings 17:59:24 <andythenorth> yeah 17:59:56 <Alberth> not worth the additional limits that you add, imho 18:00:18 * andythenorth wonders if this can be one parameter total 18:01:15 <andythenorth> âGrim and meanâ | âHarsh but fairâ | âReasonableâ | âGenerousâ | âGushing over" 18:01:25 <Alberth> make a list with every combination :p 18:01:45 <andythenorth> I was too embarassed to post that suggestion 18:01:49 <andythenorth> but I seriously considered it 18:01:58 <andythenorth> one parameter, compound options :P 18:02:41 <Alberth> would be nice to have it, for people that don't like tweaking numbers 18:02:57 <andythenorth> people who can tweak the numbers could also recompile :P 18:03:07 <Alberth> you could do suggestions for numbers in the description 18:04:07 <Alberth> nah, tweaking a number in a newgrf parameter window is not quite the same as compiling a newgrf, in particular for MP :) 18:04:55 <Alberth> release a firs for every setting combination :p 18:05:00 <andythenorth> ha ha 18:05:07 <andythenorth> I think I have to leave it alone for a bit 18:05:22 <andythenorth> the I have no (good) idea what to do with it, and the code is becoming spiders 18:05:33 <andythenorth> I should put in this steel mill instead http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7693/SteelMillAssembled.png 18:05:56 <Alberth> :O much better than default 18:06:17 <andythenorth> itâs from Oz (not OzTrans), years old 18:06:19 <Alberth> mostly because I have seen that one for a lot of years already :) 18:06:23 <andythenorth> never made it into game though 18:06:26 <andythenorth> Dan repainted it some 18:06:54 <Alberth> lots of details in the chimneys 18:07:00 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 18:09:15 <andythenorth> ho 18:09:25 <andythenorth> maybe supplies behaviour shouldnât be configurable at all? o_O 18:09:59 *** Arveen [~Arveen@ip-95-223-75-47.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:10:30 <Alberth> why? 18:10:39 <andythenorth> simpler ;) 18:10:46 <andythenorth> simple wins? 18:11:00 <Alberth> then just skip opening the parameter window :p 18:11:02 <andythenorth> but even then... 18:11:15 <V453000> that is quite a nice steel mill indeed 18:11:23 <andythenorth> when I play NoCarGoal I want aggressive production from supply deliveries 18:11:39 <andythenorth> when I play Busy Bee, I want smaller amounts, Gung ho ruins my nice random networks 18:11:42 <Alberth> I think it's great you open up that mechanism, it makes people be able to tune the industry set 18:12:16 * andythenorth wonders how many people open the parameters 18:12:28 <andythenorth> and whether they ever discover economies 18:13:00 <Alberth> V can do a yeti advertisement for settung up firs parameters :p 18:13:50 <Alberth> you changed the default to "basic" in the climate they play, I hope? 18:14:44 <Alberth> but yeah, so many people are stuck in temperate, even in standard openttd :) 18:16:06 <Alberth> I wouldn't be surprised if some people don't know there are more climates :) 18:16:37 <V453000> yeti advertisement? :d 18:17:36 <andythenorth> I changed the default to Temperate Basic :D 18:18:02 * andythenorth awaits bug reports âI like the new sprites, but why did you delete all the industries" 18:18:04 <Alberth> close enough :p 18:18:25 <Alberth> haha :) 18:18:35 <andythenorth> âparametersâ is not a _great_ word for that button in newgrf gui 18:18:49 <Alberth> point to website: see? not deleted 18:19:09 <Alberth> customize? 18:19:18 <Alberth> difficult word :p 18:19:30 <Alberth> enhance? 18:19:45 <andythenorth> âSettings' 18:19:48 <Alberth> tweak? tune? 18:20:14 <Alberth> settings in newgrf settings??? :o 18:20:24 <andythenorth> even settings need settings :P 18:20:29 <andythenorth> yeah not good 18:20:31 <andythenorth> brb 18:20:35 <Alberth> byue 18:20:40 <Alberth> -u 18:21:29 <V453000> instead of Parameters I would use Fuck Your Game Up 18:22:55 <Alberth> *beep* your game up :p 18:24:05 <_johannes> Hello 18:24:18 <_johannes> does someone know how to build headquarters? 18:31:40 <andythenorth> company window 18:34:25 <_johannes> ah thanks! 18:45:37 *** Clockworker_ [Clockworke@187.7.104.73] has joined #openttd 18:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27523 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2016-03-13 19:45:37 +0100 ) 18:45:48 <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints: 18:45:49 <DorpsGek> latvian: 1 change by Jancs 18:46:12 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED07F22.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:48:17 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~farci@i59F6C1F6.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 18:52:03 *** Clockworker [Clockworke@187-4-5-88.paemt702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:52:21 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:23 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 18:53:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6D7BF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:58:48 *** Ketsuban_ [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:5d98:9b6a:4101:a1c4] has joined #openttd 19:01:57 *** kubast2 [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has joined #openttd 19:04:36 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:4950:b5e4:4af5:2c54] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:04:43 *** Ketsuban_ [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:5d98:9b6a:4101:a1c4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:05:11 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:5d98:9b6a:4101:a1c4] has joined #openttd 19:52:33 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 19:52:36 <drac_boy> hi 20:12:00 <andythenorth> Alberth, V453000 o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7694/steel_mill.png 20:12:38 <Alberth> looks great 20:13:00 * andythenorth has a few tweaks to make 20:13:01 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:13:18 <V453000> yeah something about the black furnaces doesn't fit FIRS 20:13:24 <V453000> but in general it is a great direction 20:13:41 <V453000> I think random bright pixels are the thing 20:14:00 <V453000> there are too many same-shade areas 20:14:48 <andythenorth> compare to http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=190009 20:15:00 <andythenorth> itâs obviously not same style I guess 20:15:27 <andythenorth> the brick building is a very old, crap sprite of mine 20:15:32 <andythenorth> and the chimneys need work 20:15:34 <drac_boy> actually I like the chimneys on that one :) 20:15:49 <V453000> both are great 20:15:50 <drac_boy> heh ^ 20:16:00 <V453000> the black one just needs some improvements 20:16:11 * andythenorth will cook, eat and improve 20:16:20 <andythenorth> I have ~1hr before sleeping is needed 20:17:24 <drac_boy> :) 20:19:22 * andythenorth drinks Czech wheat-free beer 20:19:25 <andythenorth> and thinks of V453000 20:19:58 <V453000> aren't you mixing up wheat and alcohol? 20:20:04 <V453000> would explain some problems in FIRS chains :P 20:20:42 * andythenorth couldnât drink beer for 2 years, it was sad 20:20:51 <andythenorth> then I found wheat free beer, which is mostly crap 20:20:55 <andythenorth> but this Czech one is good 20:20:57 <andythenorth> RL story :P 20:22:23 <V453000> ah 20:22:31 <V453000> gluten thing? 20:22:45 <V453000> btw what is the beer called? 20:22:56 <andythenorth> CELIA 20:23:12 <andythenorth> not exactly gluten, but I eat the same stuff as people with gluten thing 20:23:35 <andythenorth> from Zatec 20:23:58 <V453000> right :d 20:24:01 <V453000> dont know that 20:24:21 <andythenorth> probably quite niche :P 20:29:32 *** kubast2 [~kubast2@217.153.119.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:37:40 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1813C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:43:48 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:32 *** debdog [~debdog@2a02:8070:4585:f300:7a24:afff:fe8a:d04d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:45 *** debdog [~debdog@2a02:8070:4585:f300:7a24:afff:fe8a:d04d] has joined #openttd 20:52:36 *** _johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-229-44.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:59 *** frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:54:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: the 'recompile' argument is not valid for multiplayer:) 20:54:28 <andythenorth> ho ho 20:54:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: where are you anyway? :) 20:54:40 <andythenorth> weird timezone 20:55:06 *** debdog [~debdog@2a02:8070:4585:f300:7a24:afff:fe8a:d04d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:34 <frosch123> It's 7:55 20:55:47 <frosch123> Sydney 20:56:41 *** debdog [~debdog@2a02:8070:4585:f300:7a24:afff:fe8a:d04d] has joined #openttd 20:58:56 <drac_boy> 16:59 here if that even matters ;) 21:01:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: so Iâm currently âstuckâ on the production params, although it is shippable as it stands :) 21:01:25 <andythenorth> dunno if itâs good yet though 21:01:36 <andythenorth> but you probably need breakfast, not FIRS 21:02:43 <Alberth> it needs a breakfast industry too :p 21:02:55 * drac_boy throws some pixelated pancakes around? 21:02:56 <drac_boy> :P 21:09:20 <Supercheese> Syrup farms 21:09:27 <Supercheese> sounds perfect for Toyland 21:09:40 <Supercheese> Transport giant hotcakes on flatcars 21:09:45 <Supercheese> Syrup in tankers 21:10:19 <Supercheese> each refrigerated car has a single enormous stick of butter 21:12:24 <andythenorth> all too realistic 21:12:27 <andythenorth> these things exist 21:14:52 <Supercheese> giant hotcakes on flatcars? 21:19:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: without the numbers in the industry gui: does some random guy joining a aerver know what's going on? 21:20:05 <andythenorth> not sure :) 21:20:18 <andythenorth> another parameter? o_O 21:20:32 <andythenorth> More Numbers | Fewer Numbers? 21:20:54 <frosch123> Taking a look at the newgrf settings for that seems weird, though it is probably also the case for other settings 21:20:59 <Alberth> the "easy for random guy at random server" setting :p 21:22:05 * andythenorth wonders about that :P 21:22:07 <andythenorth> seriously 21:23:03 <frosch123> Nah, then firs also needs to disable town rating :p 21:23:21 <frosch123> I think numbers are fine 21:23:41 <frosch123> Kids should stay in school 21:24:56 <andythenorth> I am overwhelmed by the numbers tbh 21:25:01 <andythenorth> I just want to close the window :) 21:25:14 <andythenorth> maybe thereâs some way to solve that though 21:25:29 <andythenorth> remove âGung Hoâ and âEnhanced' 21:29:36 <frosch123> They need names for talking 21:30:08 <frosch123> But ok, skip the numbers 21:30:39 <frosch123> People also need to look up other settings 21:33:22 <andythenorth> something is unsatisfactory about all of it :) 21:33:28 <andythenorth> and I donât just mean your patch :) 21:33:59 <andythenorth> maybe I should swap supplies for Yetis 21:39:23 <andythenorth> maybe itâs the ports :P 21:40:14 <andythenorth> should ports be just processing industries? 21:40:30 <andythenorth> output amount = delivered amount 21:41:41 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 21:55:08 <andythenorth> primary industries just produce in direct proportion to supplies delivered? 21:55:14 <frosch123> Nah, ports are an easy early way to supplies 21:55:20 <andythenorth> and player can set multiplier? 21:55:31 <andythenorth> supplies in = primary cargos out? 21:55:50 <frosch123> Thats bad :p 21:56:09 <andythenorth> I think I have to add the parameters for ports also maybe 21:56:15 * andythenorth trying to avoid that 21:56:25 <frosch123> The levels make it interesting to supply multiple industries 21:57:13 * drac_boy pokes flygon with a hot bone 21:57:23 <frosch123> Anything continuous would either send everything to one, or it would be way too hard to balance 21:57:59 <frosch123> Ports are imho not worth the params 21:58:17 <frosch123> Just give them 10x requirements 21:59:16 <andythenorth> 10x works for enhanced 21:59:25 <andythenorth> gung ho, not so much :) 21:59:49 <frosch123> Hmm 22:00:50 <andythenorth> ports were always a hack :) 22:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, if you think it's going to be bad, it's actually even worse 22:01:24 <andythenorth> think Iâve found the limits of this particular hack, resp. code _and_ gameplay both 22:02:51 <drac_boy> :) 22:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> ugh, the text stack <-- the problem with the text stack is that it's not actually a stack. it has no "push" function 22:04:31 <andythenorth> is that why it never makes any sense to me :) 22:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly 22:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but it mostly makes it annoying for me 22:05:36 <andythenorth> itâs a long time since I used it, but iirc itâs built as dwords, and (usually) read as words, so it has to be packed two values per register also 22:05:50 * andythenorth canât remember, but saw some code for that today 22:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you also have to manually count the registers 22:06:33 <drac_boy> anyway going make some supper for now 22:06:35 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 22:08:36 <frosch123> Bye 22:08:41 *** frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: meh] 22:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> election results kinda scare me. i should stop looking 22:10:21 <andythenorth> never read news before bedtime :P 22:10:28 <andythenorth> or first thing in the morning either 22:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like 4 hours away 22:10:40 <andythenorth> exactly 22:10:42 <andythenorth> 'before' 22:18:34 * andythenorth bed now 22:18:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 22:22:30 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:35:55 *** gelignite [~gelignite@f048080156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/1kso8Ta] 22:50:21 <Wolf01> 'night 22:50:23 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:14:31 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 23:17:49 *** JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd 23:45:09 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.136.141.100] has quit [] 23:46:07 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 23:46:09 <drac_boy> hi 23:48:54 <drac_boy> just wondering as I'm not sure how common they are but..any of you ever seen these turntables that basically look like a cd placed flat to ground .. rather than the other type where theres a pit in the ground and a bridge-like trestle sitting in center instead? 23:50:31 *** ConductorCat [~Conductor@2602:306:c528:de50:bcec:6e8f:2c48:3504] has joined #openttd 23:53:07 * drac_boy also wonder if flygon is still asleep too :) 23:57:05 *** ConductorCat [~Conductor@2602:306:c528:de50:bcec:6e8f:2c48:3504] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]