Log for #openttd on 21st March 2016:
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00:53:21  <drac_boy> hi
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01:00:01  <drac_boy> hi as always :P
01:00:03  <drac_boy> what doing tonight
01:00:33  <sim-al2> Not much, internet is dropping out again
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01:02:45  <drac_boy> being bit lazy here too..although I'm still trying to find some elusive volvo specs yet
01:04:22  * drac_boy may go to bed later
01:08:15  <drac_boy> oh and btw I've been still looking for an online copy but would you believe that there was a steam excursion (the locomotive was a smaller mogul sized sort of thing .. not one of these big 4-8-4 everyone seem to want to watch) right on the corridor mainline itself... bit crazy how different things must had been back then :->
01:09:15  <drac_boy> of course old amtrak isn't same as new amtrak so mm yeah
01:10:31  * drac_boy thinks that was a bit like seeing steam showing up at King Cross in uk
01:10:37  <sim-al2> The old corridor was a bit short on services at the beginning
01:11:00  <sim-al2> Well, there are those Harry Potter trains...
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01:18:52  <sim-al2> Sometimes, it's easy to forget how large trains can be:
01:18:59  <drac_boy> of course if you wanted to check the 1960-1970's photos in usa you'll likely eventually find many examples of unusual power replacements tho .. neverminding dead fresh-new diesels being taken over either by steam or old dirty freight roads
01:20:55  <sim-al2> Early Amtrak trains are really strange, because all the old equipment from the various railroads was just pooled without repainting
01:21:14  <drac_boy> mm actually..slight related, I recall one of my magazine had a typical branchline passenger train standing at station but the locomotive was shiny black from front to part of the cab then the rest of cab and tender were quite a bit grimed ... turns out the scheduled power had some issue so another locomotive was swiped off the ready track before the wipers had finished with it
01:22:05  <drac_boy> heh early amtrak also had that confusing "pointed-to-where" arrow as well .. no wonder they never really used arrows much on newer locomotives after that one :)
01:22:58  <sim-al2> off-topic a bit, but Japan actually has a few sometime excursion trains now:
01:23:17  <drac_boy> and who can (seem modellers still keep talking about this even to today!) forget the "bloody nose" red paintup amtrak used for a while too?
01:23:39  <drac_boy> this would be one of them
01:24:55  <sim-al2> Appeared on the SDP40's too:
01:25:42  <drac_boy> can I say "goddamn bleeding thing!" :P
01:26:23  <sim-al2> Looks pretty nice even on the P42s:
01:28:38  <drac_boy> either way about japan steam .. I'm not sure why but there was once one of these express tender locomotive under full power hauling a complete emu set (had somewhat slanted cab)
01:29:32  <sim-al2> Happen to be this one?
01:29:48  <drac_boy> looked like that yeah I think
01:30:35  <sim-al2> That particular unit can be hauled around by a locomotive, or operate by itself in electrified areas
01:31:09  <drac_boy> hmm slight different but this reminds me of a topic I started in here some time ago re how some steam locomotives were initially designed for freight duty but found themself soon changed to express service instead and vice versa
01:32:33  <sim-al2> One of the steam services actually uses a set of modified DMUs, as it operates on a steep line and the locomotive is a fairly small type, so the DMUs power uphill
01:32:34  <drac_boy> especially when (on one railroad) a train came in late with steaming trouble so it was taken off and a freight locomotive planning to at least take it to end of route .. but as the photographer watched it left the station quite fast, and soon he found out it arrived on-time and a few days several of the class was reassigned to passenger pool straight away
01:33:50  <drac_boy> and of course the UP FEF was often on passenger trains but when bumped by diesels they found themself happy with moderate freight trains, not surprised tho as the design was meaning to be a dual-duty locomotive
01:34:12  <sim-al2> Some of the larger types that appeared later on, like the advanced 4-8-2s, could easily run both freight and passenger
01:35:46  <drac_boy> of course uk had a few of its own stories too
01:36:16  <drac_boy> like how else could Southern not care about running a 9F at very fast speeds (it had five heavy driver axles...!) with express trains for a while 0_0
01:36:19  <sim-al2> Of course, in unusual situations any locomotive can be found on trains it didn't normally run on
01:37:04  <drac_boy> or that a Mallard could be found working non-express freight trains at rare times? (sometimes unbraked fittings too)
01:37:48  <sim-al2> Seems like a good use :D
01:39:47  <drac_boy> well the 9F had these 5ft drivers and I think the counterbalance was just 'ok' .. plus theres the factor of that heavy siderod total weight
01:40:13  <drac_boy> but I dunno tbh .. I just know that BR eventually never even want them to run fast anymore after that one few years of express sting
01:41:39  <sim-al2> I've read that there were concerns about bearing overheating as well as general overstress of the rods
01:42:20  <drac_boy> btw it would appear these crazy-fast express stings actually came to more than 130kph 0_0
01:42:35  <drac_boy> I probably wouldn't want to take a 9F *that* fast heh
01:43:32  <drac_boy> there is one fast freight the Mallard did seeming get scheduled for quite a few many times :)
01:43:48  <drac_boy> made some sense seeing that its almost a nonstop dock-to-city routing
01:44:30  <sim-al2> Yeah, sometimes weird workings are part of moving equipment to other areas that would otherwise be "deadheads"
01:45:23  <sim-al2> Like the British DMUs, working one or two wagons as they returned to their depot
01:45:44  <drac_boy> before the more modern bogie coaches theres many photos of the express-fitted fish vans being shunted right onto existing trains .. so you could have eg 4-2-0 followed by two vented vans then four 2-axle coaches
01:46:04  <drac_boy> I imagine sanity among other things eventually made fish cargo usually go on dedicated trains
01:46:21  <sim-al2> I think even milk wagons would be attached at times
01:46:55  <drac_boy> btw moving ... thats pretty much why there were sometimes the odd doubleheads ... may as well as save one path while we're at that :)
01:47:08  <sim-al2> As train weights increased and schedules tighten, those practices seem to go away
01:47:40  <drac_boy> schedules tighten .. you want know what uk did that I still don't really understand? heh (and they were the only one to even do this too apparently)
01:50:45  <drac_boy> :)
01:50:49  <sim-al2> Eh?
01:51:30  <drac_boy> take a guess ... the train's still moving too
01:52:24  <sim-al2> well.... damn
01:52:35  <drac_boy> slip coach .. as it was officially called
01:52:56  <drac_boy> usually either a lesser train picked them up or the branchline service (think Duck 0-6-0T) moved them onward off-route
01:54:01  <sim-al2> How did they disconnect the hook? It seems like a crewman would have to clamber along the side...
01:54:48  <drac_boy> the reasons usually was a mixed bag.. it could be either to keep a really short schedule for the main stations and/or it was to start with a heavy train but cut off the excessive weight before hitting the later-on-routing-map hill grades
01:55:47  <drac_boy> good question, I dunno .. I just know the slipcoach had their own smaller brake office as they needed a separate man to manner the manual brakes to stop the coach by the platform
01:56:08  <sim-al2> It's a bit unfortunate for passengers who want to travel from that station
01:56:32  <sim-al2> Also, not exactly a low risk manuever
01:57:26  <drac_boy> for the latter it could be eg the locomotive could handle 720 the first half but only 600 for the second part so if theres major enough station dropoffs before middle point then thats where the slipcoaches were used apparently
01:57:49  <drac_boy> yeah theres at least one LNER example of slipcoaches cutting off but then slamming into the very train itself :-s
01:58:21  <sim-al2> The non-continuous braked trains seem to have always had multiple brake carriages, since the trains didn't have corridors either
01:59:56  <sim-al2> Seems a little less dangerous when you consider that the coaches have just as much braking power as they did in the train anyway...
02:00:43  <drac_boy> yeah
02:01:31  <drac_boy> btw I'm not sure how long it lasted for (can't recall if its even still there on any modern ones) but the usa coaches always had an inside handbrake wheel just between the platform door and vestibule inside-door
02:01:57  <sim-al2> Wikipedia article says most services stopped using it by the 30's, although the last Western drop was performed in 1960
02:01:57  <drac_boy> so in theory even if someone closed the cocks and cut out the emergency air tank .. you could still stop the coach with the manual/chain brakes
02:02:28  <sim-al2> Yeah, these coaches almost certainly didn't even have air or vaccum
02:03:04  <sim-al2> Only a few trains had continuous brakes even up to the 1880's
02:03:42  <sim-al2> Naturally, that led to a few accidents where it would have taken more than a mile to stop from 45 mph
02:03:47  <drac_boy> actually I'm talking about 1950's wagons
02:04:10  <sim-al2> Oh, yeah, I'm impressed the British allowed that for so long
02:04:21  <drac_boy> the same kind of handwheel you see on top of old wooden boxcars ... it was still there inside the vestibule area on usa coaches .. not sure if modern ones still have it or its been removed away with
02:05:02  <sim-al2> All equipment that I know of has the handbrake accessible from the vestibule or end of the car on EMUs
02:05:53  <sim-al2> It's required, since the air will leak off after a few hours
02:07:27  <sim-al2> Some of the modern equipment have large handles instead, but with a similar mechanism
02:07:48  <drac_boy> btw I almost and I were mentioning about vacuum vs air brakes ...
02:09:04  <drac_boy> well as I recall some small railroads in usa (makes sense seeing they have a very short rooster list to deal with among other things .. not to mention if their lien is detached from any networks too) pretty much took some liberty with running higher-than-normal line pressure for faster recharge/discharge rate
02:09:16  <drac_boy> lien=line*
02:09:40  <drac_boy> it sometimes could result in more vavles/seals blowing out over time but the tradeoff was apparently worth it
02:11:52  <drac_boy> rio grande (or was it during the d&rgw era? I can't recall now) did the same ... talk about mountain brakes :->
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02:16:54  <drac_boy> oh...geeze..after ten already :-s sorry sim-a12 going sleep now .. have fun with whatever other non-trainchat things you had tonight anyhow :p
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06:32:56  <Supercheese> @seen andythenorth
06:32:56  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 11 hours, 18 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <andythenorth> DanMacK: o/
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07:13:09  <Wolf01> o/
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12:31:30  <Snail> hi guys
 I posted this on the forums, but I’m asking you here as well since I’m really clueless
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12:32:04  <Snail> yesterday I was testing my set, and OTTD gave me a very helpful message
 it quit after telling me, “Would you be so kind not to load a NewGRF that makes the ‘query’ sprite a non-normal sprite?”
12:32:16  <Snail> and I’m totally clueless as to what this means
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12:51:51  <Flygon_> Sounds like the GRF loaded a sprite it shouldn't have
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12:54:44  <planetmaker> he sets property on a normal GUI sprite which it should not have
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12:57:42  <V453000> Snail: [13:54] <@planetmaker> he sets property on a normal GUI sprite which it should not have
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12:58:31  <Snail> The thing is, my set is not even touching the GUI
12:58:33  <planetmaker> OpenTTD expects a normal sprite but gets a recolour sprite or font sprite
12:59:37  <Snail> But what does it have to do with the query sprite?
13:00:16  <planetmaker> not much except that it's the 1st normal sprite, thus the fallback sprite for failed sprite requests
13:00:53  <planetmaker> thus you see it for instances for broken sprite layouts where you return an invalid sprite number
13:02:40  <Snail> Ok... The message could have been more helpful then
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13:04:12  <planetmaker> I don't know the call path. May well be that it's the first being overwritten, if you blunder with recolour sprites.
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13:25:48  <planetmaker> Snail, if you want more than superficial information, that's why we have the debug levels...
13:26:14  <planetmaker> then OpenTTD will tell you exactly which sprite it refers to.
13:27:15  <Snail> Oh that sounds great. How can I access those debug levels?
13:28:12  <planetmaker> Snail, also, looking more at the code: the warning is 100% acurate concerning the sprite you try to modify...
13:28:15  <planetmaker> openttd -h
13:28:32  <planetmaker> will tell you which debug facilities. Probably misc or sprite or so
13:30:49  <planetmaker> driver, grf, map, misc, net, sprite, oldloader, npf, yapf, freetype, script, sl, gamelog, desync, console
13:30:49  <Snail> So I just run openttd -h in the terminal, then try to start a game with my newGRF, and then when the game crashes, it will display a message with the sprite number?
13:30:55  <planetmaker> so probably 'sprite' :)
13:31:17  <planetmaker> Snail, no, that gives you the help which will tell you how to enable the proper debugging
13:31:49  <Snail> Oh, ok
13:31:50  <planetmaker> and you will need a proper console to follow openttd's output... so on windoze you might first need to convert it to a console programme... no clue about that
13:32:36  <planetmaker> I can look it up in my console. or you can in yours. I prefer the latter :D
13:32:39  <Snail> Well I use a Mac
13:32:47  <planetmaker> one issue solved
13:33:02  <planetmaker> you do have a proper console shipped out-of box
13:33:24  <Snail> I usually use the Terminal
13:33:40  <planetmaker> ^^
13:36:02  <Snail> So I start with openttd -h, activate the sprite debugger, then start OTTD from the console, and see the output when the game crashes
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13:41:38  <planetmaker> activating the debug output is part of starting openttd. openttd -h only shows you the help how you might do that...
13:42:38  <planetmaker> ./openttd -d sprite=6
13:42:53  <planetmaker> tbh, I didn't think I had to read that for you
13:43:44  <supermop> hi planetmaker
13:43:58  <planetmaker> your questioning does not make me believe you actually *do* use OSX' console at all...
13:44:02  <Snail> I'm not on my computer now... That's why
13:44:58  <planetmaker> aaaaarg.
13:44:59  <Snail> I use the Terminal to compile OTTD and my trainset. But I don't have access to it now
13:46:47  <Snail> But thanks for your help, I'll try it out later today
13:47:21  <planetmaker> tell that earlier and I don't have to assume that you're unable to follow simplest instructions...
13:47:54  <planetmaker> and I would have given you a more concise answer as take-away
13:48:31  <planetmaker> thanks for wasting my time with that omission :S
13:49:54  <Snail> Hey dude calm down...
13:53:33  <Snail> If ottd's error message had been more helpful (like, saying that something was wrong with a sprite and suggesting to start OTTD in debug mode) I would have probably done it myself without asking here
13:53:42  <Snail> But anyway, again, thanks for your help
13:55:42  <Ketsuban> That's kind of the problem. There is no "debug mode" - there's switching on additional debugging information. If the message had said "increase sprite debug information for more detailed help" you'd have come here and asked how to increase sprite debug information, and we're right back to square one. The fundamental fault is you didn't mention not being at your normal computer.
13:57:27  <Ketsuban> ... that was a little harsher than I intended.
14:00:08  <Snail> Not necessarily.. I would have probably browsed the wiki for info about how to get more debug info. I might have been able to do it myself
14:00:59  <Snail> Anyway my suggestion is to OTTD devs is to change that message to make it more helpful. Then it's your decision to do it or not :)
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14:11:46  <planetmaker> snail: the message is 100% accurate
14:12:35  <planetmaker> so why change when it describes what happens?
14:14:35  <Snail> Maybe it's accurate technically, but it leaves people clueless.. I have no idea why the "query" sprite becomes "non-normal"... Then it suggests to look at the readme, and there, there is no reference to this "query" sprite
14:14:51  <Snail> So the average user would not know how to proceed
14:30:45  <supermop> i wonder if there are any decent gpl conveyor belt sprites around
14:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS and ISR have conveyor belts, maybe some objects as well
14:33:08  <supermop> can a railtype change it's default station sprite like with its depot?
14:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> stations are complicated...
14:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but it should be possible
14:36:34  <V453000> beltzzz
14:37:45  <supermop> if pipe is gpl could hack together a belt system fairly quickly
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14:43:15  <V453000> supermop: what is so bad about drawing the graphics? :P
14:46:55  <supermop> hard do do surreptitiously at work, i'd probably also get sidetracked and spend weeks on it, and i might no want to draw them in a style others like
14:49:54  <V453000> who gives a shit if others like? :D
14:53:50  <V453000> you like == winwin
14:53:56  <V453000> nobody will like my new train set either
14:54:02  <V453000> but I enjoy making it
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15:40:13  <Wolf01> what kind of layout would be better for an universal app?
15:40:13  <Wolf01> A) tab style, you change tabs by sweeping left/right
15:40:13  <Wolf01> B) hamburger menu + sidebar style
15:40:13  <Wolf01> C) a mix of both
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15:44:20  <V453000> slugquak
15:44:32  <supermop> the latter
15:45:38  <frosch123> Hoi
15:51:30  <supermop>
16:00:10  <Rubidium> frosch123: good evening (or good afternoon?)
16:02:32  <frosch123> It's midnight
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16:04:56  <V453000> did frog leave deutschland_
16:04:57  <V453000> ?
16:07:40  <frosch123> Not sure
16:08:02  <frosch123> Every second tourist seems to be german
16:08:28  <frosch123> I expected way more chinese
16:08:54  <V453000> wtf country did you get yourself into_
16:08:54  <V453000> ?
16:08:57  <V453000> are there slugs?
16:14:33  <frosch123> Only turtles
16:14:41  <frosch123> And tortoises
16:16:59  <planetmaker> o/
16:17:37  <V453000> turtles work too
16:17:50  <V453000> tortoises are fine if they got some hg stuff
16:18:51  <frosch123> And durians, if you want to know about fruits and buildings
16:19:12  <V453000> ah that explains shit
16:19:21  <V453000> so durians arent flooding in germany
16:21:14  <frosch123> I bought that durian flavored chocolate, just out of interest (i was aware about the reputation)
16:22:18  <frosch123> It smelled terrible as expected from the fruit, but even in chocolate form
16:22:28  <frosch123> So i ate one piece
16:23:08  <frosch123> The taste was acceptible, but the next burp was just like the smell again
16:23:47  <frosch123> So i decided to leave it with one piece...
16:24:49  <frosch123> Then i put it somewhat closed into the fridge with the intention to bring it back home and force everyone to take a piece as well
16:25:41  <frosch123> But the next morning the fridge smelled so bad that i worried getting kicked out of the hotel:p
16:26:19  <frosch123> So sadly i threw it into a public trash basket (outside the hotel)
16:26:36  <frosch123> No durian for you:)
16:27:21  <debdog>
16:28:11  <frosch123> Fake
16:28:24  <frosch123> The first 3 are correct
16:28:59  <frosch123> I have not seen the durian one in any mrt
16:30:38  <Rubidium> so, smoking costs 00? (flammable goods + smoking)
16:35:57  <frosch123> they even designed their opera house like it
16:36:13  <frosch123> To compete with sydney
16:37:06  <V453000> xd
16:37:07  <V453000> nice hedgehog
16:39:47  <frosch123> Rubidium: the security personel everywhere is bored nevertheless
16:40:26  <frosch123> Esp in the morning some seem to take a nap ;)
16:40:59  <frosch123> The mrt is interesting though
16:41:27  <frosch123> Driverless, and all platforms have double doors
16:42:13  <frosch123> That is the platfoms have glass walls and doors at the tracks
16:42:34  <frosch123> Which align and open with the train doors
16:43:05  <frosch123> Quite hard to jump in front of a train
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16:54:20  <frosch123> Night
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17:29:46  <supermop> need some sample of dos pallet here
17:30:48  <Alberth> pallets eh?  palette would be easier :)
17:32:07  <sim-al2> DOS Pallet sample:   :p
17:34:26  <sim-al2> Actual TTD-type Palette:
17:35:00  <Alberth> ah, thanks, was also looking for that :)
17:36:00  <Alberth> :O  nice pallets, they even look DOSy :)
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17:46:15  <supermop> can a railtype override bridge graphics?
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18:18:15  <supermop> why did i assume that sides of a tile would be 22.5 degrees
18:18:41  <Alberth> wikipedia says it?
18:24:31  <Alberth> just do 2 horizontal, 1 up/down  :)
18:26:53  <supermop> unless i have lost my mind i get 26.6 degrees drawing that then measuring
18:30:50  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc arctan(1/2)
18:30:50  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'arctan' is not a defined function.
18:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)
18:30:55  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.463647609001
18:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)*180/pi
18:31:01  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771
18:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks right
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18:34:54  <supermop> why did i think it was 45/2
18:35:42  <Alberth> thinking in the wrong projection :)
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18:41:28  <supermop> could make the conveyors covered to tie into isr
18:45:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27525 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2016-03-21 19:45:36 +0100 )
18:45:45  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> latin: 18 changes by Supercheese
18:51:40  <supermop> workstation only has 8gb ram -_-
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21:24:39  <Wolf01> guess what... I think I'll go to sleep
21:24:41  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:04:25  <Birko> Hi everyone, how can I use AITestMode() for test if couple of tiles are possible to raise?
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22:20:38  <glx> Birko: you just instanciate an AITestMode object, do the test, then destroy the object to return to non test mode
22:24:00  <Birko> I need some info from that test mode. So if I make a local variable after an instance of AITestMode object, then I destroy AITestMode object, will be that local variable accessible?
22:25:31  <glx> changing the build mode doesn't touch the scope
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22:27:18  <Birko> glx: thx, I try it
22:29:32  <Birko> and AIExecMode is opposite to AITestMode? Should I after destroying AITestMode maka an instance of AIExecMode?
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