Log for #openttd on 7th April 2016:
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00:08:33  <drac_boy> ah *pokes the silly guest-sim*
00:08:45  <sim-al2> Yeah, going to nap
00:09:06  <sim-al2> Computer decided to go to sleep because I walked away for a few minutes
00:11:49  <drac_boy> have fun? ;)
00:12:24  <sim-al2> Yeah, low fever again :/
00:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> better than high fever...
00:13:07  <sim-al2> True, not fun though
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02:51:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Device: /dev/sdd [SAT], 648 Currently unreadable (pending) sectors ... uh-oh
03:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> weird, it reports 0 reallocated sectors
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05:40:16  <Eearslya> Eddi|zuHause: Probably means you caught it early enough that there's no chance of data loss, which is good
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07:00:15  <andythenorth> o/
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09:42:15  <Samu> hi, i got some results from the lzma testings yesterday
09:43:05  <Samu> nice_len: a value of 273 here yields best compression
09:44:25  <Samu> openttd lzma implementation is only single-threaded
09:44:47  <Samu> openttd lzma implementation is also only using 2 MB for dictionary
09:45:24  <Samu> dictionary size is one of the greatest contribution to the resulting compressed size
09:45:55  <Samu> the size should be based on the uncompressed size of the stream
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09:47:24  <Samu> on the example case I used a ~ 1.9MB uncompressed, a 2 MB dictionary resulted in the best compression ratio, any dictionary size higher than 2 MB was useless, it was always resulting in the same size
09:48:34  <Samu> openttd could have some code to adapt the dictionary size to be a bit more dynamic, instead of just 2 MB for every case
09:49:34  <Samu> and... pretty much that's it
09:52:42  <peter1138>
09:54:34  <Samu> lego?
10:09:14  <Samu> wish i could understand what they're talking about here
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10:09:31  <Wolf01> o/
10:09:47  <Samu> hi
10:12:56  <Wolf01> how's going with the compression?
10:15:42  <Samu> i got the results, I know what are the best parameters, i just don't know how to code this in openttd ( as usual)
10:16:47  <Samu> openttd is using an easy encoding approach, it lacks customization on the important parameters I mentioned a few minutes ago
10:17:28  <Samu> dict_size, nice_len - these are 2 of the most important ones
10:19:22  <Wolf01> wetrails
10:20:23  <Samu> the easy encoding approach is using pre-defined presets, from 0 to 9. Each preset has their own set of parameters
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10:20:51  <Samu> openttd devs explicitly decided to use preset 2 of lzma
10:23:17  <Samu>, int, int, int, int, int, int, int)
10:24:30  <Samu> oops wrong link
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10:39:48  <Samu>;a=blob;f=src/saveload/saveload.cpp;h=b1a21844f355fc18dfb1b80f7b01e8df33a2b202;hb=9a5db2063b513a606f9652d580f2a35dfbbba4d6#l2345
10:40:32  <Samu> line 2370 sets the preset 2 for default_compression
10:41:22  <Samu> and line 2426 retrieves default_compression which is 2
10:47:46  <Samu> simply putting  a 9 in there isn't enough, it doesn't necessarily lets me to chose the nice_len
10:47:59  <Samu> nice_len for preset 9 is 128.
10:48:24  <Samu> lacks customization :(
10:48:49  <Wolf01> the problem is that I don't even understand why you need to compress more the savegames
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10:53:51  <peter1138> this
10:54:14  <peter1138> have you built yourself a lego particle accelerator yet andythenorth?
10:54:23  <andythenorth> hasn’t everyone?
10:54:59  <andythenorth> ha it’s pretty good
10:55:01  <Samu> well, it started when i found out that openttd savegames was only using 12-13% cpu out of my 8-core cpu, decided to investigate
10:55:45  <Samu> turns out, lzma implementation in openttd doesn't support multi-thread, so i went to find other options
10:58:25  <Samu> i guess my research is pointless
11:03:55  <Samu> the task of compressing the savegame could greatly benefit from multi-thread, especially on maps sized 4096x4096
11:04:14  <Samu> but my research went into another direction... yeah, I lost focus
11:08:16  <Wolf01> is the compression done on the "game" thread or the "save" thread?
11:11:01  <Samu> Alberth said it starts a separate thread just for the compression task, not sure what that means
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11:11:59  <Samu> game keeps running, while compression does its thing
11:12:20  <Wolf01> ok, then time is not a problem here
11:12:26  <Wolf01> I think the thing that should be improved is the memory-to-memory copying, maybe it could be possible to use more threads to read from the map with 256x256 chunks each one, so you should have the same time on each map size (it depends how many threads your CPU supports)
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11:22:27  <Wolf01> V453000, lol,
11:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> only 200 hours :p
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11:35:17  <Wolf01> heh, I still haven't beat that time, I have just 140 hours summing different savegames
11:49:49  <Wolf01> I'm in that weird part of the internet again...
11:50:05  <Wolf01> after Thomas the Tank... Murphy the Tank:
11:53:18  <andythenorth> random
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13:18:07  <nodownload> heya guys
13:18:20  <nodownload> i tried downloading openttd today but i got a timeout on the downloads for all sets
13:18:24  <nodownload> anyone have a mirror?
13:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> mirrors are linked on the main page
13:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> under "contact"
13:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, no, it only lists them, not with links...
13:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> who thought that was a bright idea?
13:20:59  <nodownload> ^^
13:21:04  <nodownload> someone?
13:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause> usually <countrycode>
13:25:05  <nodownload> nl did pop me the TU Twente site, but no download link, just a blank page
13:25:35  <nodownload> but it works so thanks
13:28:18  <planetmaker> The mirrors don't necessarily have a browsable website
13:28:38  <planetmaker> nodownload, can you tell *which* mirror you were directed to, which one failed?
13:29:28  <nodownload> france
13:29:48  <nodownload> failed or timed out
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14:23:56  <Samu> do you know of a file manager that can sort a list of files by the difference of date time of creation with date time of modification?
14:24:22  <Samu> (to find out which compression method took more time)
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14:30:26  <Samu> Alberth hi
14:30:35  <Alberth> o/
14:31:57  <Samu> when i click save, what happens before compression starts? I noticed some big hiccup of about 4~5 seconds before compression actually takes place
14:32:09  <Alberth> copying the map
14:32:53  <Samu> this part must be synced with the game
14:33:06  <Samu> any way to speed this up?
14:33:46  <Samu> Wolf01 spoke of memory copy, chunks and stuff I don't understand
14:37:17  <Samu> after this big stall, it starts "* *saving game * *" = the compression itself
14:37:55  <Samu> i used a 4096x4096 map, the stall is very noticeable here
14:39:03  <Alberth> @calc 4096 * 4096
14:39:03  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 16777216
14:39:19  <Alberth> that's a lot of tiles
14:39:45  <Alberth> Don't know the size of a single tile
14:41:32  <Eddi|zuHause> used to be 9 bytes
14:41:58  <Alberth> it still is, according to landscape.html
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14:42:14  <Alberth> @calc 4096 * 4096 * 9
14:42:14  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 150994944
14:42:35  <Alberth> that many bytes must be copied.
14:46:57  <Samu> 167 MB (175.625.682 bytes)
14:47:09  <Samu> what could be the other 25 mbs?
14:48:51  <Alberth> chunk headers, save game versions, newgrf lists, configuration data
14:49:09  <Alberth> lzma headers
14:49:19  <Alberth> and crc, probably
14:50:02  <Samu> hmm interesting
14:51:58  <Samu> ok, one thing I noticed, some compression methods are faster than this copying
14:52:04  <Samu> memory copying
14:52:55  <Samu> even faster if it could be multi-threaded
14:55:28  <Samu> [12:12] <Wolf01> I think the thing that should be improved is the memory-to-memory copying, maybe it could be possible to use more threads to read from the map with 256x256 chunks each one, so you should have the same time on each map size (it depends how many threads your CPU supports)
15:06:46  <Alberth> you primed the cpu cache :p
15:07:35  <Alberth> but yeah, you could try throwing several threads at copying the map
15:08:11  <Alberth> not sure if it helps, since the slow part is the memory itself
15:08:15  <Flygon_> Remember when 64k was enough?
15:08:16  <Flygon_> :D
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15:08:26  <Flygon> I don't. I'm too young.
15:08:38  <Flygon> But dammit! 16mbytes should be enough for any Windows computer!
15:08:44  <Alberth> 64K??  woo, I used to have 32K including the screen
15:08:55  <Flygon> Game Boy?
15:08:58  <Flygon> :B
15:09:02  <Wolf01> that was 8
15:09:12  <Flygon> Oh
15:09:15  <Alberth> which could be 20K on its own, leaving me with a whopping 12K memory :)
15:09:22  <Flygon> Well, I'm 90% sure the GBC had 64kb <_>
15:09:22  <Wolf01> (iirc)
15:09:27  <Flygon> As did the Nomad
15:09:37  <Flygon> iunnolol
15:10:01  <Alberth> I had a BBC B micro computer
15:10:12  <Alberth> nice basic, and assembly language too
15:10:14  <Samu> the copying was only using 12% cpu
15:10:29  <Alberth> Samu: yep 1 of 8 cores :p
15:11:22  <Samu> the compression also, but that's another story
15:12:28  <Alberth> one thing to keep in mind is that some computers have only a single core
15:12:56  <Alberth> openttd should work there too
15:13:18  <Alberth> possibly less fast, but it should work
15:13:42  <Samu> the only tests i could do were single-threaded
15:14:27  <Samu> some compressors methods openttd have, like lzo and zlib, are faster than the 4096x4096 map copy thing
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15:14:48  <Samu> that means, less than 4~5 seconds
15:15:21  <Samu> (but the resulting save file is quite large)
15:15:55  <Alberth> bad if you want to send it over the network in MP :)
15:16:20  <supermop> hi
15:16:26  <Alberth> hi ho
15:17:40  <Samu> so i see
15:20:55  <Samu> who has ubuntu? i dont feel like installing ubuntu for this
15:21:33  <Samu> i see that ubuntu as a "ls" command that lists up to the milisecond date time of creation and date time of modification of files
15:21:36  <Samu> has a*
15:22:12  <Samu> windows only lists up to the minute :(
15:22:25  <Alberth> "ls" is a GNU program that all Linuces have
15:23:16  <Wolf01> install the git console tools and you have a lot of unix commands in the windows' console too
15:23:29  <Samu> git console tools
15:24:30  <Samu> this?
15:24:32  <Wolf01> just install git for windows and select console tools too
15:25:09  <Wolf01> it even support coloring
15:25:53  <Wolf01> too bad no mc :(
15:27:38  <Samu> no idea what to donwload :(
15:27:59  <Alberth> "install git for windows"  I think
15:28:18  <Samu> portable?
15:28:28  <Wolf01> "install"
15:28:42  <Samu> :( install with ruin windows command prompt
15:28:59  <Wolf01> no
15:29:01  <Alberth> Samu: it says "for windows", how can it be portable?  :p
15:29:20  <Samu> Git for Windows Portable ("thumbdrive edition")
15:29:45  <Wolf01> the command prompt does not change at all
15:30:13  <Wolf01> I think it will just add the path of the commands to %PATH%
15:30:59  <supermop> guy on forum is right - not enough servers with newgrfs
15:35:53  <Wolf01> btw, does somebody knows how to change the default switches to the ls command of the git command line tools? I would like "--color --full-time -h"
15:37:21  <andythenorth> some kind of git config?
15:37:29  <andythenorth> or alias it in your bash profile?
15:37:53  * andythenorth obviously doesn’t know
15:39:08  <Alberth> afaik only by making a new command, like ln (ls nice) in an alias
15:40:01  <Wolf01> ln is already for links
15:40:50  <Alberth> I mean     git ln
15:41:10  <Wolf01> I don't mean git, I mean "ls"
15:41:18  <Alberth> ah, right, I see
15:41:27  <Wolf01> ls.exe in my case :)
15:42:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i would imagine there'd be an environment variable for that
15:43:06  <Samu>
15:43:12  <Samu> look at that last answer
15:43:37  <Wolf01> only the bin folder in %PATH%
15:44:28  <Alberth>   <-- ls manual
15:44:46  <Wolf01> not applicable, samu, I'm on windows and I know how to write the switches by hand, I'm just lazy :)
15:47:43  <Samu> bah, it's the stat command?
15:50:03  <Alberth> looks like it supplies enough information :)
15:50:28  <Wolf01> it seem that the only env variables are to format dates and locale for ordering
15:51:21  <Alberth> nah, dircolor definitely works too
15:52:13  <Wolf01> yes, the switches do work, I just don't want to type them every time
15:52:24  <Alberth>   <= stuff like this
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15:53:22  <Wolf01> I'm used to "ls -la" not to "ls -lah --color --full-time"
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15:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "Time stamps are listed according to the time zone rules specified by the TZ environment variable, or by the system default rules if TZ is not set. See Specifying the Time Zone with TZ in The GNU C Library Reference Manual."?
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15:56:39  <Wolf01> nah, I just want --color and --full-time automatically enabled
15:57:05  <Eddi|zuHause> there is definitely a variable for colour
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15:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:58:21  <Wolf01> isn't that to change the colors used for the different entries?
15:59:38  <Samu>  ls --full-time -u
15:59:40  <Samu>  ls --full-time
16:00:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also probably do dos-style macros, like linux aliases
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16:03:45  <Samu> ok i got what i wanted, now i just have to calculate this times manually
16:03:49  <Samu> these*
16:04:05  <Samu> and it will result the total time it took to compress
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16:06:27  <Wolf01> mmmh, I don't get how to set the env vars, it does seem to ignore everything (yes I know how to set vars and that I need to open a new terminal after that)
16:07:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't help you with that
16:11:57  <Wolf01> bah, on linux is easy, I'll wait for the ubuntu subsystem :P
16:18:04  <Wolf01> ok back to my brainfucking session of UWP
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16:22:13  <Samu> so i was wrong about lzo and zlib about being faster than memory copy
16:22:30  <Samu> they're about equal
16:22:47  <Wolf01> they both work with memory, what do you expect?
16:22:58  <Samu> still calculating the rest of zlib brb
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16:32:11  <Samu> - I put the total time to compress at the last column, in seconds.
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16:42:16  <Samu> hmm how much time in seconds is a day in openttd game?
16:42:29  <Samu> i always forget
16:42:59  <Samu> if autosave is monthly
16:43:33  <peter1138> 2.something
16:43:48  <peter1138> autosave has no bearing in it
16:44:04  <Samu> some servers don't pause while saving
16:44:39  <Samu> would a player that joins a server wait ~75 seconds for the server to prepare a savefile to send?
16:45:03  <Samu> and then wait even more to download it?
16:45:56  <Samu> download a 10 MB file
16:46:18  <Samu> load it, play fastforward to catch up with the server which never paused
16:46:23  <Samu> hmm :(
16:46:29  <planetmaker> that's what happens normally, yes
16:46:53  <Samu> what if the client also have autosave enabled ?
16:47:41  <planetmaker> why would the server mind?
16:48:06  <Samu> when fast forwarding to catch up with the server, would it trigger the autosave?
16:49:20  <Samu> not sure how it works
16:49:45  <peter1138> Sensible map sizes don't have these problems.
16:49:54  <Samu> when i play single player fast-forwading games, i know autosave turns down the speed to normal
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16:50:34  <peter1138> no it doesn't
16:55:03  <Wolf01> uh oh, I've done a terrible mistake... I don't know in which order are the handlers of an event executed :/
16:55:48  <Samu> gonna try something dumb
16:55:50  <Samu> brb
17:00:04  <Samu> hmm this error is misleading
17:00:17  <Samu> "the last 8 seconds no data from the server bla bla"
17:00:23  <Samu> this is the stalling
17:00:27  <Samu> i mentioned
17:05:30  <Samu> disabling the autosave from the server, removes this stalling
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17:06:58  <Samu> strange
17:08:41  <glx> saving can take a long time
17:09:18  <Samu> the stalling only happens with autosave
17:09:24  <Samu> but not when a client joins
17:09:37  <Samu> well, not really this
17:09:38  <glx> because pause on join maybe
17:09:48  <Samu> ok, let me explain better
17:09:57  <Samu> got 1 server, 2 clients
17:10:17  <Samu> server is with disabled autosave, and with 1 client in it
17:10:25  <Samu> now the other client joins the server
17:10:38  <Samu> there is still a stall, but not as significant as the autosave stall
17:10:47  <Samu> server doesn't pause on join
17:11:24  <Samu> the first client does pause briefly, but won't trigger "the last xx seconds error"
17:12:30  <Samu> with autosave enabled on the server, "last xx seconds" pops up on the client
17:13:26  <Samu> what's different between the two save methods? autosave and a client entering the server?
17:18:31  <Samu> Client #16 is dropped because it took longer than 500 ticks to join
17:18:50  <Samu> 500 ticks in real time seconds
17:18:54  <Samu> is 500/72?
17:19:38  <Alberth> FAQ lists the number
17:19:51  <glx> 74 I think
17:20:02  <Samu> @faq
17:20:03  <glx> but wiki should know
17:20:47  <Samu> ok, brb
17:21:03  <glx> hmm no a day is 74 ticks
17:21:29  <glx> ticks/s depends on cpu and game complexity
17:26:41  <Samu> hmm, there should be a time calculator for this
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17:29:26  <Samu> if my upload is 3 Mbps, the save i have to send is about 15 MB, how many seconds does it take to upload?
17:30:32  <glx> less than 5s I think
17:31:09  <Alberth> Mbps is Mega bits / s, ie 0.3 MB/s
17:31:28  <glx> oh 40s
17:31:29  <planetmaker> glx, OpenTTD should run at 30ticks/s
17:31:39  <glx> my math was wrong
17:31:49  <planetmaker> hm, no 0.03 seconds per tick rather
17:31:57  <planetmaker> @calc 1/0.03
17:31:57  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 33.3333333333
17:32:00  <glx> ideally yes
17:32:21  <glx> but add some boats or many vehicles, on a big map ;)
17:32:31  <Samu> 40 * 72
17:32:41  <Samu> oh, 74
17:32:42  <planetmaker> it will only slow down, if the cpu is insufficient for the map. Or rather the map size and vehicle count for the cpu
17:32:56  <Samu> ok, let's put 3000 ticks for download time
17:33:19  <glx> enable pause on join can help
17:33:44  <Samu> pause on join is meh
17:34:04  <planetmaker> pause on join is required, if your server has a slow connection
17:34:17  <planetmaker> thus if the map cannot be transferred to the clients in a timely fashion
17:34:46  <planetmaker> large maps and a server run from home likely won't do the trick without a decent join time and a pause on join
17:34:53  <Samu> i need a volunteer with big download rate to join my server, see if it's enough for him to get in
17:35:33  <Samu>
17:35:45  <Samu> can only join as spectator, too many AIs in it
17:35:47  <planetmaker> well, you should know your *upload* speed and you can do some math, can you?
17:36:27  <Samu> network.max_download_time = 3000 currently
17:36:58  <planetmaker> that map is HUGE. 3 seconds for upload? Can your line handle to upload 100MB in 3 seconds?
17:36:59  <glx> and 3Mbps upload is better than usual adsl
17:37:47  <Samu> i'm trying to figure out
17:38:04  <glx> but still slower than usual adsl download
17:39:38  <Samu> it isn't too clear
17:40:26  <Samu> max_join_time vs max_lag_time
17:40:35  <Samu> on a server that doesnt pause on join
17:40:56  <glx> lag is during game
17:41:32  <Samu> is the stalling lag accounted?
17:41:32  <glx> join is to do all actions other clients have done after save and during download
17:41:49  <glx> stalling is the server only
17:42:26  <Samu> ok, let's try some number
17:42:30  <planetmaker> Samu, my client could receive 6 MByte from you before the connection was closed
17:42:53  <Samu> ty
17:42:58  <planetmaker> thus the download of that map would take FAAAAAAAAAAAR longer
17:43:16  <planetmaker> and would take a time, no client ever could catch up with
17:43:28  <Samu> the save is about 12 MB, so, 3000 ticks isnt enough
17:43:35  <Samu> gonna put 6500 ticks
17:43:37  <Samu> brb
17:44:31  <Samu> ok 6500 now, the catch up time is counted as max_lag_time, right?
17:45:00  <glx> catch up time is join time
17:45:17  <glx> lag time is for after catch up
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27536 /trunk/src/lang (belarusian.txt malay.txt) (2016-04-07 19:45:37 +0200 )
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> belarusian: 1 change by KorneySan
17:45:50  <DorpsGek> malay: 1 change by rionix88
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17:46:23  <Samu> oh 6500 + catch up time
17:46:41  <Samu> 9500 maybe?
17:46:42  <glx> that's why pause on join is highly recommended
17:46:51  <Samu> gonna try 9500
17:47:56  <Samu> planetmaker: volunteer wanted!
17:47:59  <Samu> keks
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17:52:10  <Birko> Hello, can somebody help me with RailPathFinder? Is it possible to have source tile or goal tile on tile, where already is rail? I am trying to build rail crossing, but railpathfinder build nothing if source tile or goal tile is on tile with some rail
17:53:21  <Samu> arf, can't simulate a 3 mbps connection
17:58:34  <supermop> yo
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18:06:10  <Birko> Here si picture of my problem with RailPathFinder .. I need to build both railways. It builds only one according to which is the first in code. What should I do pls? thanks
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18:12:51  <Birko> RailPathFinder expects a tile without any rail transport type?
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18:20:47  <andythenorth> o/
18:20:56  <Alberth> hi hi
18:21:01  <andythenorth> so FIRS should check for vehicles that can arry cargos? o_O
18:21:05  <andythenorth> not sure that’s feasible eh
18:21:46  <Alberth> I tried that once in openttd c++, and failed on "not pax" like vehicles :p
18:22:16  * andythenorth won’t be trying it
18:22:43  <andythenorth> in principle it just means running the refits for all vehicles in all newgrfs, and checking each cargo is transportable somehow
18:22:46  <andythenorth> but ‘meh'
18:22:52  <Alberth> at best you can detect not a known vehicle set, and warn about it
18:23:48  <Alberth> "you are not using road hog or iron horse, we recommend you use one of those"  :p
18:23:56  <andythenorth> harsh
18:23:58  <andythenorth> but
18:23:59  <andythenorth> :P
18:24:01  <andythenorth> fair
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18:24:38  <supermop> hi andythenorth
18:25:29  <andythenorth> lo supermop
18:25:51  <supermop> include a wheelbarrow in firs
18:26:11  <supermop> refits to one unit of any cargo, moves at 3 mph
18:26:16  <supermop> problem solved
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18:27:08  <supermop> one pax can sit in the barrow
18:27:37  <andythenorth> hmm
18:27:45  <andythenorth> _could_ refit all the default vehicles
18:27:48  <andythenorth> but meh
18:27:56  <andythenorth> bugger that
18:29:49  <supermop> nah
18:30:26  <supermop> just the bus, a factory worker can buy a ticket and carry a sack of grain onboard as luggage
18:31:54  <supermop> there arent any japanese road vehicles, huh
18:31:59  <andythenorth> dekatora
18:32:11  <andythenorth> supermop: but where do the dog and the goose sit?
18:32:16  <supermop> other than some trams in 2cc tram set
18:32:26  <supermop> ha
18:34:27  <supermop> bright and lit up japanese trucks in road hog?
18:34:56  <supermop> what was your previous truck endeavor andythenorth ?
18:35:00  <andythenorth> Bandit
18:35:06  <andythenorth> full of bad ideas
18:37:33  <supermop> Bad Ideas Renewal Set
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18:51:05  <Alberth> baddit :p
18:51:35  <supermop> any thoughts on crane roster?
18:53:20  <andythenorth> supermop: first thought is, I need to reinstall open office?
18:54:10  <andythenorth> nah I’ve found a text editor that can read it
18:54:51  <supermop> hah should i have saved it as xls? i didnt know if you'd have office
18:54:56  <andythenorth> nah it’s fine
18:55:08  <andythenorth> I’d delete 50% of it :)
18:55:09  <glx> just use csv ;)
18:55:11  <Wolf01> o/ andy
18:55:28  <supermop> i'd like to cull most of the locomotives
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18:55:50  <andythenorth> 23 EMUs is about 19 too many imho :)
18:56:02  <supermop> because i find differentiation in locomotives super boring esp. in this context
18:56:15  <supermop> andythenorth: japan is EMU land?
18:56:21  <andythenorth> I know, but still
18:56:43  <supermop> what do you think abt having the different categories of MUs?
18:57:06  <supermop> and having HSR as an EMU
18:59:48  <supermop> but yeah cutting half sems reasonable any ideas as to which half?
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19:07:46  <andythenorth> supermop: try giving the commuter EMUs meaningfully different stats between 1970 and 2015, that will give you part of the answer ;)
19:08:15  <supermop> have yet to think about hp/speed/capacity yet
19:08:31  <andythenorth> it starts to become obvious if you only do meaningful upgrades
19:08:47  <andythenorth> what’s the highest plausible speed for standard EMUs?
19:09:17  <supermop> just rough qualities, category A is slower than B, category B is slower loading etc
19:09:20  <supermop> hmm
19:09:39  <supermop> in japan idk but for gameplay in general i'd say around 100mph
19:09:54  <andythenorth> I’d guess anything up to 125, you can always cheat
19:09:56  <supermop> urban ones maybe 60
19:10:02  <supermop> hmm
19:10:09  <supermop> ok
19:10:21  <supermop> 200 kmh is nice round number
19:10:50  <supermop> urban emus should have similar speed but improve in capacity
19:11:08  <supermop> otherwise you have to rework very tight scheduling every decade
19:11:21  <andythenorth> lowest plausible speed is 25mph, and that’s pushing it, in 1860
19:11:26  <andythenorth> I’d say 45mph is better
19:11:30  <supermop> yeah
19:11:54  <supermop> 80kmh is the slowest i ever tolerate in a game
19:15:08  <andythenorth> smallest worthwhile increment is 10mph, 15mph is better
19:15:22  <andythenorth> 0mph is also ok, anything less than 10mph messes your network up for no gain
19:15:44  <supermop> yeah
19:16:14  <andythenorth> capacity increases of less than 15px are tedious
19:16:40  <andythenorth> pax *
19:17:32  <supermop> idea: shinkansen emu 1 door per car, express emu 2, commuter 3, metro 5
19:18:01  <andythenorth> for Iron Horse, for MUs, I can’t imagine adding anything other than single unit railcars (preferably 8/8), or twin-unit (1 tile)
19:18:10  <andythenorth> shinkansen might be another story
19:18:17  <supermop> ok
19:18:24  <andythenorth> or shinkansen could work like cargo sprinter, magically grows
19:18:28  <supermop> ha
19:18:36  <andythenorth> cargo sprinter always has just two cabs
19:18:40  <supermop> there is a cargo sprinter in IH?
19:18:59  <andythenorth> in the brit roster
19:19:06  <andythenorth> you want to do the japanese electric version?
19:19:31  <andythenorth>
19:19:44  <supermop> yeah sure
19:19:58  <supermop> or a fictionalized version
19:20:24  <Wolf01>
19:21:16  <andythenorth> what is gameplay difference between express / commuter / metro EMUs?
19:22:19  <frosch123> Alberth: <- there are a bunch of projects which lack plural/case/gender information
19:22:37  <frosch123> do you agree that it should be fine to just add the default setup, when there is no information?
19:23:01  <frosch123> i.e. no custom plural/gender/case -> eints adds default plural/gender/case for language
19:23:06  <supermop> speed+comfort vs capacity+load speed
19:24:16  <andythenorth> I’d merge at least two of those together
19:24:20  <andythenorth> as classes
19:24:33  <supermop> hmm
19:25:02  <Alberth> frosch123: seems fine to me
19:25:17  <supermop> what if first emu is "commuter" and at some point commuter forks into express vs metro
19:26:14  <andythenorth> supermop: another way to look at it
.you want to get the main roster (narrow gauge) into 25 or less (preferably less)
19:26:38  <andythenorth> there are easy choices to cut: remove all the diesels
19:26:47  <supermop> yeah fuck those guys
19:26:51  <andythenorth> and don’t have express electrics if this roster prefers EMUs
19:27:26  <supermop> do players need slow cheap non-electric freight?
19:27:27  <andythenorth> how early can you electrify?
19:27:42  <supermop> 1930s earliest reasonable
19:27:59  <andythenorth> I’d go earlier
19:28:14  <andythenorth> if the roster is all-electric after a certain date, it’s annoying to convert a large already-built netwotk
19:28:21  <andythenorth> netwotk :P
19:29:13  <supermop> they still were pretty heavy into steam for 5-10 years after the war
19:29:32  <supermop> diesels mostly for hokkaido and kyushu
19:31:17  <andythenorth> I’d steal from this and go for about 1905 for electrics
19:31:32  <andythenorth> or can off the electric locos and keep the diesels
19:31:51  <supermop> yeah im fine with that
19:33:08  <andythenorth> for freight, from 1950-2010, you can get away with 3 large (2000HP+) and 1 small diesel (1000hp or so)
19:33:15  <andythenorth> or equivalent electrics
19:33:24  <Samu> 8 bits = 1 byte
19:33:25  <andythenorth> possibly just 2 large ones
19:33:44  <supermop> i just worry about someone starting a game in 1960 and they need a short little cheap train to pick up a small amt of cargo from a non-gungho farm
19:34:21  <andythenorth> 1000hp diesel
19:34:23  <supermop> andythenorth: japan effectively only had 3 diesels in that era
19:34:24  <andythenorth> or trucks
19:34:56  <andythenorth> is freight fast, slow, or middling?
19:35:07  <supermop> slow
19:35:08  <andythenorth> fast is like Iron Pony, 85mph+
19:35:13  <andythenorth> slow is 55mph
19:35:21  <supermop> slow
19:35:25  <andythenorth> it’s narrow gauge, I’d keep it slow
19:35:37  <andythenorth> so you only really need 2 diesels for that, a big one and a small one
19:37:00  <supermop> slow light road switcher in 1950
19:37:16  <supermop> bigger carbody or switcher in 1960
19:38:14  <supermop> then maybe a more efficient small general hybrid in 2010+
19:38:31  <supermop> no DMUs?
19:38:41  <andythenorth> do a bi-mode loco in 1980s+
19:38:50  <Wolf01> guru question: does a service locator makes sense with named services? or I could just rely on the service class type?
19:38:56  <andythenorth> there’s code for locos to switch power by railtype
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19:39:41  <supermop> andythenorth: switch running cost?
19:39:46  <andythenorth> can’t remember
19:40:27  <andythenorth> I would ignore DMUs
19:40:34  <Samu> 3 Mbps = 375 KB/s
19:40:47  <andythenorth> maybe something like single-unit electric railcars, slow, 8/8 long, refittable to express cargos
19:41:01  <andythenorth> and 2 unit high capacity + high speed
19:41:32  <andythenorth> it might be interesting to make capcity and speed a tradeoff but dunno
19:41:43  <andythenorth> often it’s nice to just have a train that is clearly boss
19:41:51  <supermop>
19:42:12  <andythenorth> yeah
19:42:24  <andythenorth> Iron Horse has some tradeoffs, between railtypes
19:42:24  <supermop> do people ever need single diesel railcars in late game?
19:42:29  <andythenorth> ‘need’ :P
19:42:58  <Samu> darn, i was never good at math
19:43:05  <andythenorth> otherwise IH works on the ‘one obvious engine choice’ idea
19:43:10  <supermop> need a "japanese" house set with both dense cities and tiny villages
19:43:28  <supermop> otherwise just metro everywhere
19:43:42  <supermop> ok no dmu for now
19:44:38  <supermop> i need to come up with cute names?
19:44:41  <andythenorth> not yet
19:44:56  <andythenorth> sprites :P
19:45:00  <supermop> class numbers?
19:45:02  <andythenorth> and much less roster
19:45:14  <andythenorth> also figure out wagon generations
19:45:24  <andythenorth> we tried 2 for Iron Pony, and it wasn’t enough
19:46:52  <supermop> trade offs in wagon stats?
19:48:08  <andythenorth> no
19:48:20  <andythenorth> just choose the one you like most for this cargo
19:48:32  <andythenorth> there are a few oddiities, like metal cars are slow, and intermodal is fast
19:48:41  <andythenorth> some types have ‘express’ speeds
19:49:00  <andythenorth> otherwise similar capacity per tile, and uniform speeds per generation
19:51:36  <andythenorth>
19:52:18  <supermop> yep
19:52:40  <supermop> thats "diesel 4" on concept list
19:52:46  <supermop> cutting it
19:53:48  <supermop> 1000 hp too low for the "big" diesel
19:54:49  <andythenorth> 2400hp
19:54:51  <andythenorth> or so
19:55:58  <supermop> both switchers or more interesting to have one as carbody?
19:59:59  <supermop> small one 700 or 1000 hp?
20:00:36  <andythenorth> at least 700
20:04:13  * andythenorth must to bed
20:04:17  <andythenorth> bye supermop ;)
20:04:27  <supermop> ok
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21:00:27  <Samu> after some maths, lzma at preset 2, outputs an average of 989159 bytes per second for my cpu.  this is ideal for connections of about 8 Mbps
21:01:23  <Samu> my connection is 3 Mbps for upload, and that means... preset 4
21:01:50  <Samu> is it possible to allow moar server customization?
21:02:03  <Samu> in this case, the lzma
21:02:48  <Samu> preset 5 compresses slower than my upload is capable of
21:03:03  <Samu> preset 2 is too fast
21:03:25  <Samu> do you understand my request?
21:06:19  <Samu> preset 4 compressed at an average of 511836 bytes per sec. 3 Mbps upload is equal to 384000 bytes per sec
21:06:46  <Samu> if talking about servers, it's a bit redundant to compress too fast if the upload rate can't keep up
21:07:16  <Samu> that in turn could be used to use a stronger compression preset
21:07:34  <Samu> ends up in a smaller file to upload
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21:24:14  <Wolf01> Samu, Mbps is in bits not bytes, I'm connected at ~4Mbps and I download at 420-460KBps (bytes)
21:26:31  <Wolf01> np, I read one 0 too much, I'm tired
21:30:22  <Wolf01> I finally got rid of a stupid null reference error... it was because of self referencing code in the service  instantiation :|
21:31:31  <Wolf01> because it's natural to ask for a service while you are instantiating it (it was more subtle)... I can't even understand how it didn't end in infinite recursion
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22:22:36  <Wolf01> 'night
22:22:39  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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23:52:34  <Samu>  here it is
23:53:04  <Samu> this is the result of my research
23:57:11  <Samu> With a FX-8150 CPU and an upload speed on 3000 Kbps I'd like to set up my servers with the compression method that closely matches the encoding capability of my system
23:57:18  <Samu> that's how I interpret it
23:59:12  <Samu> the map used in this research was 4096x4096

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