Log for #openttd on 26th May 2016:
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01:16:55  <Samu> sup
01:17:01  <Samu> forum died for a while
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01:45:25  <Samu> cyas goodnight
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02:00:03  * Quinch pokes head back in
02:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody here. get out again.
02:05:10  <ST2> Quinch poked my marshmallows, which are good to burn and poke him until he gets unconscious :D
02:18:41  <Quinch> You should thank me, marshmallows are in league with the devil. Or Jody Foster.
02:21:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had marshmallows...
02:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> in my country we have KnÃŒppelkuchen
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02:27:20  <Quinch> Anyhoo, I have a question, if anyone feels like answering.
02:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a metaanswer to your metaquestion.
02:27:55  <ST2> Quinch, check topic: | Don't ask to ask, just ask |
02:28:04  <Quinch> Hehe.
02:28:55  <Quinch> Basically, if I have a vehicle going A-B-A-C, I'll usually end up with cargo being seemingly reserved for one station even while vehicles heading to the other one are waiting for cargo.
02:29:09  <Quinch> How's that work?
02:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> click on the "+" to see where cargo is going
02:29:25  <ST2> Cargodist experts required
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02:29:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or set cargodist to "manual" to disable the destinations
02:30:37  <Quinch> What is cargo distribution about anyway?
02:30:48  <ST2> imo, Cargodist enabled in MP servers is a dumb thing - because players can't see it when joining servers
02:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that relevant?
02:32:03  <ST2> and new players don't understand it - and the game don't explain it properly (to a new player joining the game)
02:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Quinch: cargodist gives cargo (especially passengers and mail) a mind of its own instead of blindly getting off at the next station
02:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> makes those cargos more challenging to transport
02:33:15  <Quinch> Go onnnnnn....?
02:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> as they travel longer distances
02:34:12  <ST2> note: don't connect stations that accept pax to where you only want to deliver goods (for example)
02:34:51  <ST2> or you'll get pax go there
02:35:19  <ST2> want*
02:36:20  <ST2> I don't know what people play here, but the biggest online communities of OpenTTD have cargodist disabled
02:36:31  <ST2> I guess that says something
02:36:51  <Quinch> Pax?
02:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that says nothing, as "the biggest online communities" are still only a tiny fraction of the whole playerbase
02:37:15  <ST2> openttdcoop handles 0,ish of ttd players
02:38:31  <Quinch> Another question, power or tractive effort - which one makes the biggest difference?
02:38:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and i do see how destinations are not fitting short-lived city-builder type games, and get in the way of coop-style megalomanic micromanagement networks
02:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's one of the most requested feature for people trying to build "realistic" networks
02:39:05  <ST2> sorry for "the biggest online communities" making the game popular and growing , gathering new players
02:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: do you have any data to support that statement?
02:39:34  <ST2> yup
02:39:43  <ST2> and you have too
02:40:29  <ST2> the difference is that I check that data, and you don't
02:40:58  <Eddi|zuHause> why would it be my job to support your random claims?
02:41:14  <ST2> what's my claims?
02:41:23  <ST2> I claimed nothing ^^
02:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you claimed that "the biggest online communities" are the driving factor of popularity and growth
02:42:05  <ST2> it's a known fact
02:42:15  <ST2> I wasn't claiming
02:42:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you have no clue how many "known facts" are actually completely false
02:43:02  <ST2>
02:43:11  <ST2> you consider that false?
02:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a blank page
02:43:43  <ST2> recheck your browser
02:43:48  <ST2> or use a real one
02:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but even if there were a graph to show up, how would that prove anything other than that specific online community growing? and help determining whether the growth of the openttd community as a whole is affected by this one way or another?
02:45:51  <ST2> I'm here not to teach people how to use internet browsers - if you don't see that graph, you dnt use free internet at all
02:46:44  <ST2> and you're not a free mind to interpret what's there
02:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sorry if i don't let random webpages steal my energy for their bullshitscripts
02:46:55  <ST2> so, I dnt mind
02:47:49  <ST2> well, it's a graph based on collected data here:
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02:48:18  <ST2> if not reliable, the source isnt as well
02:48:48  <Eddi|zuHause> sure. but again, how does that prove anything except for self-referential "we're growing because we're growing"?
02:49:08  <ST2> do the math
02:49:18  <ST2> ofc, if you can do that
02:49:36  <ST2> (joking ^^)
02:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> since there is no data on offline-players, there's no math to be done
02:50:28  <ST2> data on "offline-players" ?
02:50:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and if 1% of all offline players ever went to an online server, that's a lot.
02:51:15  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: that's 90's data
02:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> this is a 90's game.
02:51:42  <ST2> today players try OpenTTD online 1st
02:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> also, nobody in the 90's had online play.
02:52:16  <ST2> I noticed as a community admin - I talk to real players that install the game for the 1st time
02:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you're heavily biased towards people that install and then go to online servers.
02:53:12  <ST2> and most of them get OpenTTD because have a MP option
02:53:34  <ST2> ÂŽso, I think you real need to get into the real openttd
02:54:12  <ST2> we have servers with newgrf's and others without them
02:54:35  <ST2> most popular are without... guess why?!
02:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you still don't have data about people who never go online.
02:54:46  <ST2> do you?
02:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i did not make unfounded claims
02:55:24  <ST2> because I have more data about the ppl goes online that you
02:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and for the 5th time i tell you that data is BIASED
02:56:14  <ST2> since when BIASED is an OpenTTD thing?
02:57:46  <ST2> unless you caused it... and some communities try to make it better
02:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you're hopeless. goodbye.
02:59:19  <ST2> Thank you :)
02:59:33  <ST2> mind if I quote you?
02:59:43  <ST2> on next events ^^
03:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
03:00:13  <ST2> thx again ^^
03:00:43  <ST2> and will be on our Factorio event xD
03:01:39  <ST2> a industry with "Eddi|zuHause" quotes scrolling xD
03:01:48  <ST2> thank you :)
03:05:41  <ST2> oh well, put them too on OpenTTD achievements too
03:06:08  <ST2> thx Eddi|zuHause for some ideas ^^
03:07:39  <ST2> oh wait, Eddi|zuHause: do you play MP games or you stick to your
03:07:56  <ST2> SP game where you can't lose?
03:08:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the point of a game where you can lose?
03:08:24  <ST2> (now I'm pushing, I know ^^)
03:08:43  <ST2> OpenTTD
03:08:57  <Eddi|zuHause> games where you can lose were made in the 80s
03:08:59  <ST2> even the vanilla have a winnint stats
03:09:08  <ST2> winning*
03:10:29  <ST2> [04:08:56] <Eddi|zuHause> games where you can lose were made in the 80s  <<-- did you stopped there or got that even OpenTTD can have goals now?
03:10:59  <Eddi|zuHause> how do "goals" have anything to do with losing?
03:11:25  <ST2> a game is a game
03:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> if you enjoy losing, play evil mario or something...
03:12:07  <ST2> if you lose a game but respectfully within server rules, it's a good game
03:12:24  <Eddi|zuHause> not for me.
03:12:53  <ST2> that's why we have goals on OpenTTD and even when lost, players say Good Game to the winner
03:13:13  <ST2> I think you need to tune your gameplay better
03:13:36  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's to you
03:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or you need to recognize that players play for vastly different reasons
03:14:27  <ST2> I guess I once invited you to join some of our servers
03:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and i guess i never did that.
03:14:59  <ST2> that was your fault
03:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> why? there would be nothing enjoyable there for me...
03:16:08  <ST2> because we, one of the infamous ttd communities, try to keep players on OpenTTD
03:16:16  <ST2> and them to enjoy the game
03:16:31  <ST2> ánd by the game I mean the GAME
03:16:44  <ST2> the real game, OpenTTD
03:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> claims such as this truly enrage me.
03:17:11  <ST2> to you.... I dnt know
03:17:24  <ST2> I can't place porn in there
03:17:27  <ST2> sorry
03:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like a politician of an opposite party
03:18:21  <ST2> you sound like a polititian on the "no ideas"side
03:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "only i am the bestestest at polititioning. all the other parties are terrible. you must vote for me or you are an idiot"
03:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i have plenty of ideas, but i don't force them down your throat.
03:19:21  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: I understand that you deal with the "code side": I deal with the players side
03:19:27  <ST2> none is easy
03:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that is both untrue and irrelevant.
03:20:09  <ST2> can you elaburate, please
03:20:54  <ST2> [04:19:49] <Eddi|zuHause> that is both untrue and irrelevant. <<-- and for both
03:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i made many thousand forum posts, but maybe changed like 100 lines of code ever in openttd...
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03:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so i dealt with many more players than lines of code.
03:21:36  <ST2> ÂŽreally?
03:22:18  <ST2> I made couple forum posts, (including making Alberth anglry with me)
03:22:36  <ST2> and changed thousand lines to code
03:23:02  <ST2> but I got the friend's side on players
03:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i totally see how with your style of argument you make people angry.
03:24:13  <ST2> wait, people angry on what side?
03:24:20  <ST2> players or devs?
03:24:28  <ST2> you must see that
03:25:02  <ST2> because without players, devs are useless
03:25:17  <Eddi|zuHause> any people...
03:25:33  <ST2> wait, people angry on what side?
03:25:43  <ST2> players or devs?
03:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> all the devs are also players
03:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (well, to a certain degree)
03:26:18  <ST2> I know players opinions... I deal with them everyday
03:27:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the point is not about players or devs. the point is you have a very narrow opinion, and you project that opinion onto other people
03:27:29  <ST2> and we, the "communities" deal with ~50% of online players
03:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but your perceived 50% is still just 0.5%
03:28:03  <ST2> unless you have a magic wand to know opinions of offline players
03:28:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you have a serious case of "filter bubble" going on
03:28:28  <ST2> and that's what I need to know
03:28:42  <ST2> how you get the opinions of offline players
03:28:52  <ST2> is there a secret?
03:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> a filter bubble is when you surround yourself with people that share your opinion, and then assume that because everyone in your immediate surrounding has that opinion, the opinion must be universal
03:29:53  <ST2> [04:28:17] <Eddi|zuHause> you have a serious case of "filter bubble" going on
03:30:01  <ST2> I know what's that
03:30:04  <ST2> [04:28:26] <ST2> and that's what I need to know
03:30:04  <ST2> [04:28:41] <ST2> how you get the opinions of offline players
03:30:04  <ST2> [04:28:51] <ST2> is there a secret?
03:30:09  <ST2> that I dnt know
03:30:19  <ST2> can you explain?
03:30:21  <ST2> please
03:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there are loads of people in the forum who play mostly single player... just have to listen to them.
03:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> like, check out the screenshot forum. totally different world to your "online community"
03:31:45  <ST2> I listen to them, I mostly listen to posts that are ignored - and I check them all
03:32:00  <ST2> that's my "filter bibble"
03:32:08  <ST2> bubble*
03:32:38  <ST2> if you see my HTPS access, you can see it
03:35:30  <ST2> in case you dnt have acess to that: I loaded ~1500 times the forum
03:35:46  <ST2> last week
03:36:37  <Eddi|zuHause> why would anyone have access to that?
03:36:40  <ST2> so, Eddi|zuHause, you're claiming that people using OpenTTD offline are bigger that online?
03:37:06  <ST2> and where can you check that?
03:37:44  <ST2> by myself, I download 10 times OpenTTD a week
03:37:51  <ST2> an average
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03:38:09  <ST2> and on different computers
03:38:35  <ST2> work, home, pub, gf home, etc etc
03:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't check that, because OpenTTD does not record that data.
03:38:48  <ST2> how you measure?
03:38:57  <ST2> it records
03:39:00  <ST2> that data
03:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't measure that, because OpenTTD does not record that data.
03:39:14  <ST2> it records
03:39:17  <ST2> that data
03:39:53  <ST2> for knowing... I repeated
03:40:26  <ST2> ofc, I guess you didn't know that
03:40:43  <ST2> or, can't acess it
03:42:12  <ST2> I can have that data, from my side, whenever I acessed a specific "https" or "svn" or whatever
03:42:57  <ST2> if not controlled from server side, bad
03:43:24  <ST2> huge data there, but if not saved :S
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03:46:18  <ST2> btw, Comodo CA limited, provides all that info
03:46:43  <ST2> ofc, if you have acess to it
03:47:44  <ST2> I guess Eddi|zuHause never played an online game since 1994
03:47:54  <ST2> this nis all strange to him ^^
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03:50:04  <ST2> and by an online game, I mean not with his "pussy" friends, I mean a REAL online OpenTTD game
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03:51:18  <ST2> well, this is how we measure how devs gets envolved with the game itself ^^
03:52:30  * ST2 me drop mic
03:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> funny how you "drop the mic" 15 minutes after the conversation ended.
03:56:27  <ST2> well, was way better that say that to all!
03:56:35  <ST2> but now you did :S
03:57:07  <ST2> I was waiting a reply
03:57:27  <ST2> none = drop mic, he quited
03:58:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i gave up on this conversation like an hour ago, but you can't take hints, obviously
03:59:00  <ST2> I could used it earlier, but simply didn't wanted to ashamed you so soon
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04:03:03  <ST2> btw Eddi|zuHause: about OpenTTD, and what we've talked: can you say where you make testings?
04:03:49  <ST2> because our test servers are public and real players can touch it and TEST
04:06:40  <ST2> ** that's how DistCargo appeared - no replies = it's good" **
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05:20:56  <Xal> ST2: I think what Eddi|zuHause was trying to tell you was that the burden of proof lies on the accuser, and claiming that the majority of players play MP requires data to back it up. Because there's no data on the total number of player (offline) there's no way to back up your claim
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07:20:56  <Wolf01> o/
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09:19:01  <Wolf01> ha... Project Ara (the modular smartphone from LG/Google) lost the full customisation... it will end with just the customisable cover and the ability to replace the battery
09:20:38  <Wolf01> also, the guy uploaded the photos of the last exhibition
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10:00:19  <Ethereal_Whisper> mfw I split lines and then merged then immediately because I wasn't paying attention
10:00:47  <Ethereal_Whisper> GOOD JOB TRICIA
10:01:52  <Wolf01> :)
10:05:19  <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm gonna leave the construction in place since it's fully balanced and it would take more work to delete it than it's worth lol
10:28:30  <V453000> 0.13 HYPE
10:28:42  <Wolf01> /¯¯¯¯||¯¯¯¯||¯¯¯¯||¯¯¯¯||¯¯¯¯\
10:28:48  <Wolf01> all aboard the hype train
10:28:51  <V453000> TRAINZ
10:28:52  <V453000> BRAINZ
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12:35:46  <Samu> hi
12:35:49  <Samu>
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13:14:21  <Samu> i stumbled upon a log with st2 arguing
13:14:38  <Samu> with zu
13:16:00  <Samu> i'm sorry st2, but you started the "war"
13:16:08  <Samu> that's my view on it
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13:20:51  <Samu> for me, CargoDist is an interesting change of pace, but I agree, it's confusing at first
13:22:31  <supermop> not sure why some people find it offensive
13:26:40  <Samu> the rest of the discussion is... uhm.... "irrelevant" to the topic at hand: CargoDist
13:33:49  <Samu> CargoDist in multiplayer, might work better on those servers without goal, sandbox style
13:38:01  <Samu> I don't think people hate CargoDist because they dislike it, but rather because they don't know how it works. I didn't like it at first, mainly because I didn't know what was happening
13:38:30  <Samu> there is a learning curve that players have to go thru
13:38:54  <Samu> but I guess most don't want to
13:46:45  <Wolf01> I enable it and connect everything, then I'll upgrade some lines or others depending on the needs
13:46:57  <Wolf01> I don't know how it works and I don't want to
13:47:44  <Wolf01> it's just another mean to give some movement to the game, like industry closures and production changes
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13:50:20  <Wolf01> o/
13:50:26  <Alberth> hi hi
13:53:48  <Samu> yes Wolf01 - i also find CargoDist more tailored towards long lasting games
13:54:27  <Samu> btpro servers are mostly competitive games that don't tend to last too long.
13:54:42  <Samu> i see why it doesn't become popular
13:55:54  <supermop> no reason you can't have a 'competitive' game with CD, it's just that the existing competitive servers and GS use criteria that don't take advantage of it at all
13:59:59  <V453000> every time we tried cargodist, it would start doing weird shit with a big network, and not giving any gameplay benefit at all
14:01:33  <Alberth> solving shit isn't the fun part? :)
14:03:27  <V453000> it was shit you can't solve
14:03:38  <V453000> I don't remember specifically, but it happens every single time
14:03:49  <_dp_> CD is much like a GS on its own, conflicts with almost any other gs/goal.
14:04:17  <V453000> once like 95% of farm supplies prefered 1 farm cluster in FIRS, another time some passengers decided it is a good thing to wait at the station for wtf reason
14:04:24  <V453000> we didn't use any GS
14:04:28  <V453000> it's just trash
14:04:44  <V453000> IF it had a nice gameplay-enhancing concept, I could see the point
14:05:38  <Samu> why would passengers want to go to a farm
14:05:47  <Samu> farm accepts passengers?
14:05:49  <Wolf01> V453000, maybe the other farm paid more, and the passengers were doing something
14:06:06  <V453000> yeah Wolf01 , nope
14:06:16  <Alberth> disabled preference for local delivery, I hope?
14:06:42  <V453000> I don't really know anymore Alberth
14:06:57  <Alberth> but yeah, it starts working when you connect things, so biggest trouble arises when you connect everything(tm)
14:07:12  <V453000> but most likely our settings were proper, most likely I discussed the issue when it was hot in this channel
14:07:40  <Alberth> :)
14:08:44  <Wolf01> the only time I found a weird situation was when I changed the direction of the traffic because I removed an old loop around a lake replacing it with a more suitable (and fast) double track with a bridge, but I had to connect it on the other side of a station
14:09:21  <Wolf01> while before it was A-B-C-D, it bacame A-C-B-C-D and the network exploded
14:09:26  <Wolf01> *became
14:09:30  <V453000> it probably always has a chance do do some weird shit, but since we build huge networks, that chance usually (always so far) gets triggered
14:19:28  <Samu> - I joined my server to see how long it would take to fully synchronize
14:19:37  <Samu> 5 minutes 40 seconds
14:22:32  <Samu> 2 min 30 secs to download, then 3 min 10 secs to catch-up
14:22:56  <Samu> there's more than 15k vehicles in it
14:23:43  <Wolf01> could we have these?
14:24:02  <Wolf01> oh wait... there aren't cars in ottd :(
14:24:32  <Wolf01> Anybody who wants to add cars so we can have these? :D
14:25:11  <Samu> 15965 vehicles
14:29:15  <Samu> server is so slow that sometimes it disappears from the master server list
14:29:20  <Samu> then re-appears
14:29:32  <supermop> i never have had 'weird' problems with CD, even with every town on the map connected in one network, and local trams or buses within those towns
14:30:40  <supermop> i do get lines or nodes that become stressed over capacity, but i see that as part of the point of CD, to selectively determine which trunks need more bandwidth
14:31:14  <supermop> rather than a point to point mesh that eventually is just homogeneous over the whole map
14:32:17  <Wolf01> play mini metro, that's paxdest on steroids
14:46:11  <supermop> Wolf01: actually i find homogeneous mesh is a valid strategey in mini metro
14:46:46  <Wolf01> I still fail with every strategy
14:47:43  <Wolf01> tries with a mesh, trunks and branches, triangles, circles, squares, clouds, dogs and dicks
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14:48:38  <supermop> Wolf01: i dont think it is possible to not fail
14:49:08  <Wolf01> with "fail" I mean that I transport <1000 passengers before failing hard
14:49:26  <Wolf01> usually I'm on 480-650
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15:06:00  <Samu> i have a problem to solve, it requires savegame conversion
15:06:42  <Samu> "- Implemented a fix that corrects the name of AIs that are started via startai command in the console when the parameter also included the version. Saving a game will thus, store the correct name of the AI from now on. Loading previous savegames that have stored the incorrect name will still fail to recognize the intended name of the AI."
15:09:13  <Samu> i wanted to convert the name that is incorrectly stored on old saves into the correct name
15:10:28  <Samu> problem is that how would it distinguish which name is right from which name is wrong
15:11:00  <Samu> something Wolf01 said to me yesterday
15:11:41  <Samu> there is no real way to tell, is it?
15:16:16  <Wolf01> I said that was the wrong approach for the problem
15:17:17  <Wolf01> maybe you should find why it pass the folder name to the function instead of the display name, and not trying to fix the string at the end
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15:20:41  <Samu> it doesn't pass folder name
15:20:56  <Samu> i type in console: startai wormai.4
15:21:26  <Samu> it takes the 'wormai.4' part to search for a wormai with version 4, it does this part correctly
15:21:43  <Samu> however, it forgets to put the correct name once it finds it
15:21:55  <Samu> it leaves wormai.4 as the name of the AI
15:22:23  <Wolf01> then you need to get the real name when the search function finds it
15:22:40  <Samu> my fix was actually that
15:23:34  <Wolf01> but you shouldn't edit the strings directly (eg. removing the .4)
15:24:11  <Samu> i put this after line 25 of script_config.cpp
15:24:13  <Samu> this->name = (info == NULL) ? NULL : stredup(GetInfo()->GetName());
15:24:44  <Samu> info == NULL would mean that it did not find any wormai with version 4
15:26:53  <Samu> if there is INFO, it changes this->name into the intended name
15:27:08  <Samu> this->name goes from wormai.4 to WormAI
15:30:23  <Samu> I am, however, wondering if this fix breaks something else
15:30:32  <Samu> i am assuming that it doesn't
15:30:51  <Wolf01> you need to find where is used this->name
15:31:20  <Samu> it is used on ai_sl.cpp for example
15:31:29  <Samu> both saving and loading
15:31:59  <Wolf01> then you might want to add this->realname and use that, leaving this->name untouched
15:44:01  <Samu> you're right, i can't do it like this
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15:57:31  <Samu> if (this->info != NULL) this->name = (GetInfo()->GetName());
15:57:45  <Samu> pff :(
15:58:28  <Wolf01> it's almost the same as before
15:58:32  <Samu> doesn't change "none" to NULL anymore, but... it's the wrong approach
15:59:09  <Wolf01> also, I need to sleep
16:01:28  <Samu> woah, it really is searching for a scriptI by the name none
16:01:50  <Samu> what would happen if someone actually creates an AI with this name
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16:05:50  <Samu> i got to fix it at the console_cmds.cpp
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16:26:29  <Samu> 			config->Change(config->GetInfo()->GetName()); - pointer to incomplete class type is not allowed
16:26:38  <Samu> :(
16:29:38  <Samu> 3>..\src\console_cmds.cpp(1175): error C2027: use of undefined type 'AIInfo'
16:29:43  <Samu> 3>  d:\openttd\trunk\src\company_base.h(118): note: see declaration of 'AIInfo'
16:29:48  <Samu> 3>..\src\console_cmds.cpp(1175): error C2227: left of '->GetName' must point to class/struct/union/generic type
16:31:52  <Samu> company_base.h, line 118:   class AIInfo *ai_info;
16:32:07  <Samu> I have no idea what I'm looking at :(
16:33:28  <Samu> these errors are chinese to me, no idea what's undefined, what's declaration, what's class/struct/union... :(
16:39:19  <TrueBrain> buy any C++ book?
16:39:30  <TrueBrain> or .. any programming book, if class/struct/union is unknown to you
16:41:44  <Alberth> nah, that would be too easy
16:42:33  <TrueBrain> I am afraid the word is: too hard :P
16:42:50  <Alberth> also a valid option :)
16:43:09  <Alberth> quak
16:43:28  <TrueBrain> I am still considering frosch only boots up till someone said quak ..
16:43:54  <Alberth> he reads the log, looking for quaks :)
16:43:59  <frosch123> hoi mammals and gastropodes :)
16:44:28  <TrueBrain> I am gassy today, that is for sure
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17:06:25  <Samu> omg I think I did it
17:08:00  <Samu>
17:08:01  <Alberth> all problems solved \o/
17:08:46  <Samu> I hope it is correcting the name now
17:08:53  <Samu> gonna make sure
17:10:13  <Samu> hmm, i guess not
17:10:32  <Samu> nop, grrr
17:11:02  <Samu> I only want to change the name, not the whole script
17:12:34  <Samu> removed
17:15:22  <Samu> - reverted to this fix, it does it better, but at the risk of not being compatible with the so many other functions that make use of this
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18:06:37  <Wolf01> you don't even need the else, just put the code between the 2 ifs
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18:12:42  <Samu> Change(stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff) - does a lot of stuff than just changing the name :(
18:13:07  <Samu> void ScriptConfig::Change(const char *name, int version, bool force_exact_match, bool is_random)
18:16:19  <Samu> AIInfo *AIScannerInfo::FindInfo(const char *nameParam, int versionParam, bool force_exact_match)
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18:16:34  <Samu> this is the real information retriever
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18:17:21  <Samu> there's a GameInfo version too
18:19:40  <Samu> feels like a network of functions
18:21:54  <Samu> but what I wanted to say was that, - line 19 is doing it wrong
18:22:51  <Samu> it changes the name, yes, but then also searches the system for an AI with the changed name, and if I had told to start version 4 of wormai, now it is going to load the most up-date version, so I can't do it like that
18:23:20  <Samu> it was going to load version 5
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18:30:12  <Samu> hi w
18:30:15  <Samu> Wormnest:
18:30:46  <Wormnest> hi :)
18:31:07  <Samu> i made a fix, but it's far from perfect
18:32:41  <Samu> there are a lot of functions that depend on Change function
18:33:04  <Wormnest> Nice, does it work for all cases now?
18:33:30  <Samu> I don't know how to answer that
18:33:43  <Samu> old saves won't work
18:33:47  <Samu> they stored the wrong name
18:34:04  <Samu> loading them back will still give the same error you were getting
18:34:17  <Wormnest> Well IÂŽm not too sure thatÂŽs correct
18:34:22  <Samu> new saves, however, will store the correct name
18:34:46  <Samu> loading back will not give that error, but will still load the latest available version of WormAI
18:34:48  <Wormnest> IÂŽve been thinking about it and I think storing wormai.4 instead of wormai was on purpose
18:35:21  <Samu> oh really? :(
18:35:33  <Wormnest> It was done to differentiate with a normally loaded ai
18:36:13  <Wormnest> This also means I think that the purpose was to be able to load back the explicitly set version of the ai
18:36:16  <andythenorth> is cat?
18:36:56  <Samu> you're refering to the 2nd savegame? it has it stored as WormAI
18:37:08  <Samu> how did you start it?
18:37:50  <Samu> the bug is originated from within the console :(
18:37:52  <Wormnest> no the first
18:38:28  <Samu> 1st savegame has it stored as wormai.4 - this was what you had input in the console
18:38:29  <Wormnest> starting as startai wormai.4 stores name in savegame as wormai.4
18:38:43  <Wormnest> but starting normal saves as wormai
18:39:15  <Samu> it's a console command bug in my opinion, what led me to check what was is really doing
18:39:41  <Wormnest> I think itÂŽs on purpose but I might be wrong
18:40:03  <Wormnest> If you add a command to load an explicit version of an ai instead of the latest version
18:40:27  <Wormnest> It also makes sense that you would want to load that version back from a savegame
18:40:59  <Wormnest> Thus you cannot save it as wormai and store version 4, but you need to add something thus wormai.4
18:41:20  <Samu> it stores both, name and version
18:41:37  <Samu> name was being stored as wormai.4, version was stored as 4
18:41:40  <Wormnest> Yes
18:41:52  <Samu> uhm yes? so hmm I'm confused
18:42:15  <Wormnest> But if it stored name as wormai then you could not distinguis between wormai loaded normally
18:42:43  <Wormnest> and an older wormai version loaded explicitly when a newer version was already available
18:43:37  <Samu> min_loadable_version for both version 4 and version 5 is 1
18:43:46  <Wormnest> thatÂŽs why it stores it as wormai.4 meaning ok we know this isnÂŽt the latest version but thatÂŽs the one we want
18:44:17  <Samu> hmm let me test again with my fix
18:44:45  <Wormnest> but ofcourse IÂŽm only guessing IÂŽm not the one who wrote the code :)
18:45:00  <Samu> there's more checkings done other than just the name
18:45:10  <Samu> it checks version if it finds an ai with that name
18:45:28  <Samu> since it was working with the wrong name, it wasn't even going to check the version
18:45:59  <Wormnest> Yea that was clear from the console messages
18:46:34  <Samu> let me find the piece of code that works with that information
18:46:53  <Samu> if (strcasecmp(ai_name, i->GetName()) == 0 && i->CanLoadFromVersion(versionParam) && (version == -1 || i->GetVersion() > version)) {
18:47:06  <Wormnest> By the way the documentation claims that the intention is to always load the version of the ai it was saved with:
18:47:10  <Wormnest>
18:48:02  <Samu> strcasecmp(ai_name, i->GetName()) == 0  - this part was always false
18:48:12  <Samu> version was never checked
18:49:08  <Samu> it's quite a labyrinth of information being passed around
18:49:30  <Wormnest> I bet
18:49:42  <Alberth> hi hi andythenorth
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18:50:36  <Samu> i->CanLoadFromVersion - this i is the script it found on the system, there's 2 wormais in my rig, wormai version 4 and wormai version 5
18:50:58  <Samu> it finds wormai 4 first
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18:51:40  <Samu> compares the min_loadable_version that is on wormai 4 in the system and the version stored in the savegame
18:51:53  <Samu> then does the same for wormai 5
18:52:20  <Samu> and comes up with the most up to date version which can load that save, it's wormai 5
18:52:29  <Samu> at least it's what I think it's doing
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18:52:58  <Samu> had you set wormai 5 with a min loadable version of 5
18:53:07  <Samu> i bet it would only load wormai 4
18:53:20  <Wormnest> ThatÂŽs what I think itÂŽs doing too, the question is was that really the intention
18:53:33  <Wormnest> possibly
18:54:18  <Samu> savegame stored it as 4, forgot to mention
19:00:55  <Samu> i'm reading those docs
19:01:14  <Samu> heh, how do you guys always find this documentation
19:02:02  <Alberth> usually by function name
19:02:32  <Alberth> ie you look for a function name that looks what you are looking for , go to it, and start reading
19:03:10  <Samu> i just follow visual studio jumping around and try to understand why
19:03:52  <Alberth> I run grep with parts of names that the function likely contains
19:05:24  <Samu> there's 5 different results i see
19:05:52  <Samu> with the bug it was jumping towards result 3 in that doc
19:07:08  <Samu> with the fix, it jumps to 2, it seems
19:07:08  <Samu> load the latest version of the same script that supports loading data from the saved version (the version of saved data must be equal or greater than AIInfo::MinVersionToLoad),
19:07:34  <Samu> it skips version 4, because version 5 is compatible
19:07:39  <Samu> step 1 is skipped
19:15:32  <Samu> - hmm the explanation here
19:15:42  <Samu> convinces me there's something wrong
19:16:23  <Samu> As soon as one step succeeds, the sequence is stopped: Try to load the exact same version of the same AI.
19:16:55  <Samu> it isn't doing exactly like this
19:17:03  <Samu> why?
19:18:13  <Samu> as soon as one step succeeds, the sequence is stopped, hmm... that's not what I see it doing
19:19:40  <Samu> Try to load the exact same version of the same AI. - it finds it, but it doesn't stop here, it is iterating over all versions
19:20:01  <Samu> and gets the most up to date that is compatible
19:20:55  <Samu> documentation says that it stops :(
19:21:17  <Samu> it's not what it does in the code, or .... uhm... whatever
19:21:29  <Alberth> one of them is wrong, and it's not the code :p
19:22:12  <Alberth> although you should probably check the changes in that area, see what was changed last
19:25:22  <Wormnest> I think loading the latest version is indeed the intention
19:25:45  <Wormnest> Except maybe for the case where you explicitly loaded an older version of an ai
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19:27:12  <Samu> i see, let me check what comes next
19:27:55  <Samu> line 86 config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version, false, _ai_saveload_is_random);
19:28:16  <Samu> tries to match name and version
19:28:42  <Samu> it does not find it, so next step is in line...
19:28:56  <Samu> line 90 config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, -1, false, _ai_saveload_is_random);
19:29:59  <Samu> only tries to match name now
19:30:51  <Samu> name is still wormai.4, it takes .4 it splits it into 2 parts, wormai and 4
19:31:46  <Samu>  /* We want to load the latest version of this AI; so find it */
19:31:56  <Samu>  /* If we didn't find a match AI, maybe the user included a version */
19:32:06  <Samu> yes, but why in the name?
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19:33:11  <Samu>  	/* See if there is a compatible AI which goes by that name, with the highest 	 *  version which allows loading the requested version */
19:33:38  <Samu> it's doing this cycle again, but now with the name separated from the version
19:34:48  <Samu> versionParam is 4, even though it was -1 initially
19:35:23  <Samu> it is still going to load version 5
19:35:37  <Samu> but this time, it is discarding the saved data
19:36:19  <Samu> DEBUG(script, 0, "The latest version of that AI has been loaded instead, but it'll not get the savegame data as it's incompatible.");
19:36:21  <Samu> yeah
19:36:44  <Samu> AI::Load(index, _ai_saveload_version); _ai_saveload_version at this point is -1
19:36:59  <Samu> -1 means, discard whatever was saved
19:37:50  <Samu> 	if (this->engine == NULL || version == -1) { 		LoadEmpty();
19:38:00  <Samu> yep
19:48:53  <Samu> gonna try force_exact_match = true
19:49:33  <Samu> line 86 of ai_sl.cpp, changing it to config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version, true, _ai_saveload_is_random);
19:49:51  <Samu> see what happens :p
19:50:41  <Samu> oops, this is line 90, i'm stupid
19:50:56  <Samu> config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version, true, _ai_saveload_is_random);
19:51:02  <Samu> line 86
19:55:37  <Samu> 0x000000caf1cfe340 "wormai.4.4" - keks, it's doing worse
19:58:02  <Samu> it took wormai.4, and appended .4 at the end of it, now it's searching for wormai.4.4 on the system, there is no such version
19:58:11  <Samu> there is wormai.4 and wormai.5
19:58:27  <Samu> this is so messed up
20:00:04  <Samu> and now, it is comparing wormai.4 to WormAI
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20:01:01  <Samu> hmm :(
20:02:29  <Samu> gonna try yet another approach
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20:07:44  <Samu> yes, it loaded wormai.4 from the savegame
20:08:32  <Samu> but.... hmm....
20:09:01  <Samu> i'm not totally sure if this is without issues, needs more testing
20:10:10  <Samu> if I do this to ai_sl.cpp, i must do it to game_sl.cpp as well
20:13:24  <Samu> - here's what i'm testing
20:13:41  <Samu> however, i'm worried about passing -1 as the version
20:13:59  <Samu> dinner time, will check this later
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20:42:07  <Samu> back
20:42:16  <Samu> can't pass version -1 at that point :(
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21:09:37  <Emiel> hello?
21:09:52  * Emiel slaps ST2 around a bit with a large fishbot
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21:53:35  <Samu> i have another fix in testing
21:54:06  <Samu> this one required me to write a bit of code
21:54:15  <Samu> more like... copy pasting code
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22:08:58  <Samu>
22:09:06  <Samu> this is yet my best approach
22:12:59  <Samu> seems to be doing what the documentation wants it to do
22:16:03  <Samu> ah man... not really
22:18:51  <Samu> :( this is tiresome work
22:53:46  <Wolf01> 'night
22:53:49  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:50:04  <Samu> - another attempt
23:51:53  <Samu> I'm really tired
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