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Log for #openttd on 17th June 2016:
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00:00:06  <Samu> i'm using wsirc.com instead
00:02:24  <Samu> Just came to say I posted the results of the Road Vehicles competition here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&p=1171159#p1171159
00:03:32  <Samu> took me 7 days non-stop :o hope it interests someoney
00:03:56  <Samu> I want to move on to testing trains next
00:08:21  <Samu> @logs
00:08:21  <DorpsGek> Samu: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
00:08:47  <Samu> cyas all goodnight
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05:29:42  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: that seems to answer my question whether the profit shares are calculated properly
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05:49:07  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: I hope you don't mind me hijacking that west part. I need tha trains to have a destination
06:35:14  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: your company's end had an adverse effect on both Fargl's and my companies' profits. I even ran in red numbers until the flow of cargo changed
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07:48:17  <Wolf01> moin
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10:39:20  <Wolf01> shitty ISP
10:39:22  <Wolf01> o/
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11:36:29  <Samu> hi
11:37:04  <Samu> just started the train competition for AIs
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13:30:52  <supermop_> Alkel_U3: technically i don't get paid for any passengers travelling on my lines if their final delivery is made by your vehicle
13:31:36  <supermop_> so effectively most of my services were running as charities
13:31:54  <supermop_> i think only one of my trams made profit
13:32:50  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: yeah, I hoped the patch would split the income when the cargo transfers to another company. Unfortunately it's not that case
13:33:21  <supermop_> it would be fine if both networks were similar in size and topology
13:33:38  <supermop_> as we'd each have a similar share of final deliveries
13:34:02  <Alkel_U3> yeah, you lacked enough large cities
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13:34:04  <supermop_> but that last mountain line did me in once i finally connected it to fargliders station
13:34:32  <supermop_> because that was just moving passengers between your two networks
13:34:48  <supermop_> when i had it still stopping short it was making a ton of money
13:35:44  <supermop_> that and when i accidentally rasied some ocean land i lost all of my cash cushion that would have let me build out more money making routes in the east and industrial services to recover
13:36:12  <supermop_> as the mountain line was intended to eventually serve many industrial routes
13:37:50  <supermop_> the last few moments i tried starting a separate company to see if i could then buy out my failing one, but couldn't get cash fast enough before it went under
13:39:10  <Alkel_U3> too bad I wasn't around, maybe I'd buy it :P
13:39:13  <supermop_> should have left the server once i got the bankrupcy warnings as i knew was going to take about 1M and a year or so to recover, then you could have bought out or loaned the capital
13:39:48  <Alkel_U3> well, I don't know about the infra sharing next time, seems pretty double edged
13:40:11  <supermop_> was working alright for me until the end,
13:40:18  <supermop_> i wasn't making a ton of money
13:40:26  <supermop_> but at least solvent
13:41:19  <Alkel_U3> I hoped I could at least reclaim the abandoned station names but apparently they were tied to the old company to prevent stealing?
13:41:41  <supermop_> i don't play the game to make tonnes of money or build huge things, i play with the goals to make an interesting network, and to 'provide service' to as many of the 'citizens' of the map as possible
13:42:02  <Alkel_U3> yeah, me too, generally
13:42:54  <supermop_> so for me losing money and sharing infrastructure are realizations of those goals in a way
13:43:17  <supermop_> i guess IS needs contracts or royalties or something
13:44:08  <supermop_> like pay 1M over 5 years as part of agreement to move these x passengers
13:44:57  <supermop_> you'd have to fake it by gifting money and guessing what the worth of a loss making service is to other players
13:46:06  <Alkel_U3> there's just the fixed fee for using the infrastructure, but that's apparently completely inadequate
13:46:37  <supermop_> well on our map we didn't share trackage
13:47:01  <supermop_> only platforms at terminal stations
13:47:58  <supermop_> i tried to get farglider to go in on a shared double track line via helan, but he prefered to bypass
13:48:17  <Alkel_U3> I'd say it would make sense to split the cargo's trip to segments isolated to each company and have them paid separately
13:48:46  <supermop_> well i don't think any of my freight was on shared infrastructure
13:49:30  <Alkel_U3> he wasn't too happy about being presented with that without his input. Hell, people, communicate :P (I told him to sort it out...)
13:49:56  <supermop_> Alkel_U3: then you have the issue that 3 players could conspired to send passengers on a round -the world trip to the next town over
13:50:09  <supermop_> and each would get paid for a long trip
13:50:22  <supermop_> even though the passengers only travelled a few tiles
13:50:26  <Alkel_U3> I know, it's not bulletproof
13:50:46  <Alkel_U3> but you can do that in singleplayer, too
13:51:07  <Alkel_U3> just have the train go around three times
13:51:13  <supermop_> although in real life if you travel from London to Paris via Shanghai, you almost always will pay more
13:51:29  <supermop_> it is up to you to buy the cheaper direct ticket
13:51:36  <Alkel_U3> I run some of my trains on Fargl's track
13:52:07  <Alkel_U3> anyway, later. Leaving home, parties ahead
13:52:18  <Alkel_U3> s/home/work/
13:52:57  <supermop_> ha ok
13:53:33  <supermop_> well i tried to explain how my track was making him more money and only costing me, but i guess everyone has different goals
13:53:36  <supermop_> later
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14:07:21  <Alberth> hihi
14:08:35  <Samu> hi
14:09:56  <Samu> the convert utility of glx doesn't work for my patched openttd builds
14:10:06  <Samu> :(
14:10:30  <Samu> openttd.exe -D -c D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.cfg >> D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.log 2>&1
14:11:25  <Samu> it only dumps this into the log "dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version 1.6.1-RC1"
14:11:28  <Samu> nothing else
14:12:28  <Alberth> 2>&1  looks like a unix shell trick to me
14:12:38  <Alberth> or does windows do that too?
14:13:02  <Samu> i don't know, that's how glx teached me
14:13:32  <Samu> it works for openttd builds downloaded from openttd.org, but not when i build openttd with visual studio
14:16:23  <Alberth> don't know what the compile farm uses
14:30:03  <Samu> https://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/redirection.mspx?mfr=true
14:30:16  <Samu> what are handles?
14:30:24  <Samu> openttd handles?
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14:33:11  <Samu> 3&>1 wrote this to log file "D:\OpenTTD\Core8>exit"
14:33:31  <Samu> gonna try 4&>1 etc 9&>1
14:33:57  * Wolf01 *facepalm*
14:35:24  <Samu> ?
14:35:30  <Wolf01> nothing
14:35:35  <Samu> how does it work'
14:35:53  <Wolf01> wrong universe
14:42:18  <Wolf01> boring migration ever... 32GB SD -> 128GB SD
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14:46:25  <Wolf01> at least this time I checked the right format instead of copying everything and format it after :|
14:47:29  <Alberth> dd would probably work, at the cost of 96GB :p
14:47:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: you could make a company picking up a passenger pay the current transfer estimate to the company that last transported it, but that means the transfer estimate has now a gameplay effect, which worsens its inherent wrongness...
14:49:17  <Wolf01> meh 1.5 hours to copy everything...
14:49:26  <Eddi|zuHause> or you could eliminate transfer credits alltogether, and treat every delivery as final, but this opens up "back and forth" transporting abuse
14:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: 90% of working with computers is watching it do something automatically
14:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i used to have a patch eliminating transfer credits
14:50:49  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: i guess 'wrong' at least isn't ripe for abuse
14:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't look for it right now
14:51:23  <supermop_> and any payment, even too little would be better than running a loss making railway as charity
14:51:23  <Alkel_U3> yeah, I know. Thought about both way you described and don't like any of them
14:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: transfer estimate is usually too high
14:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: so the person running the last leg is screwed now
14:52:02  <Alberth> Wolf01:  can't just continue to work?  disk will copy also if you don't watch :)
14:52:31  <supermop_> otherwise any company acting as common carrier will eventually collapse or be bought at discount by its beneficiaries
14:52:57  <supermop_> Alberth: maybe he gets paid for those 1.5 hours
14:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: but instead of the "backbone" just running into its own running costs, the last leg can amount huge deficits
14:53:39  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: what if you were paid a royalty on the transfer credit - like between 10 and 60% of the estimate
14:53:52  <supermop_> configurable
14:54:02  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the estimate is already configurable in that way
14:54:05  <Wolf01> also 80MB/s my ass
14:54:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that figure is usually for "writing into the cache", which is complete nonsense
14:54:41  <supermop_> so you are still encouraged to seek out your own profitable routes, but you can hopefully at least cover costs when carrying traffic for others
14:54:51  <Alkel_U3> the estimate might still be very wrong. Sometimes the last vehicle in the chain making the final delivery will display loss
14:55:40  <Alkel_U3> also I guess it gets more smudged with too many hops
14:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the only "real" solution is to store the travel times and distances for each company separately, which hugely inflates storage for cargopackets
14:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> which is why nobody ever implemented that
14:56:34  <Wolf01> even while reading, I'm copying over usb3 to SSD and it transfers to 4MB/s
14:57:23  <Alkel_U3> I'd be willing to live with that, if it fit into, say 5 Mbps, but otherwise I can see how that would be a problem
14:58:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: bandwidth is not an issue, but memory usage
14:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (and processing time)
14:58:34  <Alkel_U3> oh
14:58:43  <Alkel_U3> right, I got that wrong
14:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
14:59:37  <Samu> there's a difference on both openttd.exes :( 13,5 MB (14.243.328 bytes) vs 13,4 MB (14.075.904 bytes)
15:03:10  <Alberth> do computers have multiple USB controllers nowadays?
15:03:26  <Alkel_U3> afaik yes
15:05:26  <Alkel_U3> yes, my 2-3 year old board apparently has three
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15:06:43  <Alberth> I only use USB for keyboard and mouse, so nothing even remotely fast, but for multiple disks that should work
15:15:59  <Samu> I still don't know how to build OpenTTD without getting that 'M' in the version
15:18:28  <Alberth> don't modify the source
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15:19:09  <Samu> then it doesn't build
15:19:21  <Samu> errors about missing files
15:19:26  <Samu> unicode stuff
15:19:46  <Samu> #include <unicode/coll.h>
15:20:28  <Samu> complains on png.h
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15:23:36  <Samu> dmusici.h, lzo.h, ft2build.h, unicode/uversion.h, lzma.h, lzo/lzo1x.h, zlib.h, unicode/coll.h
15:24:12  <Samu> how do i make it so that visual studio doesn't complain about missing files and also doesn't put an 'M' into the version?
15:26:26  <Alberth> supply the missing files, I'd say
15:27:34  <Alberth> maybe you can disable unicode too, but that's a bit tricky with foreign languages
15:28:44  <Alberth> likely, you have to compile some libraries and add them to visual studio for openttd tofind
15:50:37  <_johannes> Hey, I have the railroad network exporter finished, however, I'd like to bring in the json library I wrote as a library... is this OK, and are git submodules suggested?
15:51:39  <_johannes> What I mean is, I have a file named json.h which is not OpenTTD specific, so I have it as a library on github... how do I use it in OpenTTD? with submodules?
15:57:06  <Alberth> as a library, probably
15:57:23  <Alberth> ie like pnglib
15:57:46  <Alberth> bunch of .h files, and a .so/.a/.dll file
15:58:38  <Alberth> other option is to add it as source code in a subdirectory, ie make it part of openttd
16:01:25  <_johannes> Alberth: is pnglib distributed with OpenTTD?
16:03:23  <Alberth> I mentioned pnglib *before* mentioning "other option ... add source code"
16:05:20  <Samu> i can't make it work. when I add stuff to the include, it changes a file
16:05:21  <Alberth> but no pnglib is not distributed with openttd, but there is stuff in ./configure to find/attach it
16:06:34  <_johannes> Alberth: ok, I just wanted to make sure you mean that
16:06:52  <Samu> projects/openttd_vs140.vcxproj - file changes, then openttd version must be detecting the change
16:07:04  <Samu> and puts the 'M'
16:07:05  <Samu> why
16:07:57  <_johannes> Alberth: so the other option, e.g. making it part of openttd would be not to use submodules, but simply copy the library "as is" to OpenTTD, and whenever the library would change, I'd copy it over to OpenTTD again?
16:08:21  <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pnouumjam - if i don't do these includes, OpenTTD can't build, I'm lost
16:09:40  <Alberth> _johannes: it becomes part of openttd in that case, you have to follow commit rules
16:09:52  <Alberth> ie provide a readable patch
16:10:27  <Alberth> but tbh I am not convinced we should have a json library of our own in openttd
16:10:46  <_johannes> Alberth: yes, I agree
16:10:56  <_johannes> which would leed to the first option
16:12:44  <Alberth> not sure, I'd like to have an established json implementation, that gets distributed as package with eg debian
16:13:16  <Alberth> and works for every platform that we have, in particular all the old stuff
16:13:50  <Alberth> if your library is the only one that works, we effectively locked openttd into your library
16:14:11  <Alberth> it could break if you decide to throw the code away, or make huge changes
16:14:34  <_johannes> actually it's just a small header of ~300 loc :D
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16:16:09  <Alberth> even if it was just 1 line, I'd say this is what you get when you depend on external source not under ones control
16:16:29  <Alberth> ie a disadvantage of the first option
16:17:39  <_johannes> ok then I'll go with option two :)
16:20:53  <_johannes> in that case, the library should use the coding conventions, correct?
16:22:55  <Alberth> that's adding the code to openttd?   yep, it must, even
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16:26:04  <Alberth> So glad I am not using visual studio :p
16:30:09  <Samu> think i found a way
16:30:28  <Samu> copy 'project' folders into a 'project2' folder
16:30:47  <Samu> then open the solution in project2 instead
16:30:53  <Samu> let's see if it builds without M
16:32:39  <Wolf01> V453000, hype intensifies
16:32:58  <Samu> OpenTTD r27601
16:33:01  <Samu> yay! I did it
16:33:08  <Samu> first time I build OpenTTD without M!
16:34:13  <Samu> darn, it was rather simple after all, I just didn't think of it before
16:34:54  <Samu> projects2/openttd_vs140.vcxproj is changed instead of the original projects/openttd_vs140.vcxproj
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16:35:38  <Samu> thx Alberth for the help
16:35:59  <Alberth> I did?   ok, yw :)
16:36:39  <Samu> yes, "don't modify the source", the only modification was that file
16:36:47  <Samu> now I know how to work around that
16:36:54  <Alberth> ah :)
16:38:08  <Samu> there's another way but i think it's not recommended
16:38:13  <Samu> hack the version?
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16:39:07  <Alberth> "not recommended" is an understatement there :)
16:39:36  <Alberth> it generally causes massive confusion and problems like desyncs
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16:41:35  <Samu> i kinda wanted to try my stuff on 1.6.1-RC1 though, someone who shall not be named teached me a way to hack the version, and i tried :(
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16:42:42  <Wolf01> bye
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16:42:46  <Alberth> that's not possible
16:43:07  <Alberth> if you modify anything to 1.6.1-rc1, it's not 1.6.1-rc1 any more
16:43:47  <Alberth> ie there is no such thing as "modified 1.6.1-rc1", it doesn't exist
16:46:41  <Samu> ok i guess i was desperate for testers
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17:01:15  <Samu> 13,5 MB (14.243.840 bytes) vs 13,4 MB (14.066.176 bytes)
17:01:22  <Samu> mine is still smaller
17:01:33  <Samu> shouldn't it be equal?
17:08:06  <Samu> the console stuff doesn't work
17:08:26  <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601
17:08:42  <Samu> glx, maybe you can hhelp
17:09:51  <Samu> your convert.exe tool doesn't work when i build r27601
17:09:59  <Samu> or 1.6.1-RC1
17:10:09  <Samu> only if i download it
17:10:13  <Samu> from openttd.org
17:10:19  <Samu> what's different?
17:10:40  <glx> weird because it only touches a bit in the PE header
17:10:58  <glx> and PE header is in all exe
17:11:48  <Samu> it says gui detected, converting to console
17:11:57  <Samu> then console detected, converting to gui if i open it again
17:12:06  <glx> then it works
17:12:07  <Samu> but... it doesn't dump text into the file
17:12:14  <Samu> openttd.exe -D -c D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.cfg >> D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.log 2>&1
17:12:52  <Samu> it only dumps a single line, and the rest is displayed in the console
17:13:29  <glx> the only diff between GUI and console is that it doesn't opent a console window in console mode
17:13:40  <Samu> "dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601" is the only thing that goes into the .log
17:14:35  <glx> maybe debug level is too low
17:15:06  <glx> but convert.exe is not responsible
17:15:35  <Samu> debuglevel script=9
17:15:53  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't microsoft want to drop PE?
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17:20:39  <Samu> gonna try without dpiawareness manifest thing
17:23:33  <Samu> with dpi awareness - 13,4 MB (14.066.176 bytes) / without dpi awareness - 13,4 MB (14.065.664 bytes)
17:23:54  <Samu> let's see if it changes anything
17:24:17  <glx> compile farm may use a different compiler than you
17:24:46  <Samu> nope, didn't change a thing, still only dumping that single line
17:24:59  <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601
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17:25:14  <glx> add "-d9" to the command line
17:25:15  <Samu> the rest of the text is being displayed in the console
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17:26:00  <Samu> likethis? openttd.exe -d9
17:26:06  <glx> hmm if it's shown in the console then "2>&1" seems ignored
17:26:32  <glx> put it before >>
17:26:43  <glx> IIRC order matters for windows
17:26:45  <Samu> it opens a 2nd window and puts the text in there, so there's 2 windowses
17:27:09  <Samu> sec, let me post a screenshot
17:27:18  <glx> it should not open a window in console mode
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17:28:16  <Samu> ah right, it was in gui mode
17:28:54  <Samu> you're right, only 1 window, but the text goes to console, not to file
17:29:10  <glx> and if you move 2>&1 ?
17:29:41  <Samu> move to where? I'm not sure what you mean
17:30:36  <Samu> ah before >>, let me see
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17:31:00  <Samu> openttd.exe -D -c D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.cfg 2>&1 >> D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.log like this?
17:31:14  <glx> yes
17:31:48  <Samu> didn't seem to work, it closed the command prompt window
17:32:02  <Samu> didn't launch server
17:33:12  <Samu> windows is complaining that the .log file is open by command processor, i can't delete it
17:33:16  <Samu> grr
17:33:39  <Samu> oops, let me retry
17:34:58  <Samu> nope, text is put into console window, the .log file now gets nothing at all
17:35:07  <Samu> but the file is still created, it's just empty
17:37:13  <Samu> sorry about when i said it closed the command prompt window, I had the server already running in the background and didn't notice
17:37:43  <Samu> what is that -d9 switch?
17:37:46  <glx> anyway >>file.log 2>&1 should work
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17:37:58  <glx> -d9 is debug level 9
17:38:07  <Samu> ok, gonna try
17:39:27  <Samu> wow, the console is going crazy
17:39:44  <Samu> going through a lot of text dump
17:40:29  <Samu> looking for a lot of tar files, sprites and stuff
17:41:29  <Alberth> well, you asked for every little detail that openttd does :)
17:41:55  <glx> yes that's -d9 :)
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17:42:25  <Samu> ah, it got into the part it's generating map, and now it's telling me this non-stop: dbg: [console] Executing cmdline: ''
17:42:43  <Samu> it's doing that non-stop
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17:43:06  <glx> it outputs all commands too IIRC
17:43:44  <Samu> screenshot is maybe better
17:44:23  <Samu> http://imgur.com/UnMbpFj
17:44:38  <Samu> i'm not typing anything in the console
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17:50:00  <Samu> now i'm getting that mixed with YAPF stuff
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17:51:59  <Samu> doesn't let me type any command at all
17:52:08  <Samu> can only force close the server
17:53:12  <Samu> let me try the version from openttd.org
17:53:17  <Samu> brb
17:56:45  <Samu> it dumped the whole stuff into the .log
17:56:59  <Samu> but there is no executing cmdline: ''
17:57:07  <Samu> looks fine
17:57:10  <Samu> it works
17:57:28  <Samu> too bad, I wanted to try my stuff
17:57:34  <Alberth> nice eh?  Windows thinks it's more important to dump stuff to screen than to let you enter a command to quit
17:57:41  <Samu> i got to build openttd.exe myself
17:59:26  <Samu> eh? don't get confused Alberth
17:59:52  <Samu> when i build here, it doesn't work, when i download from openttd.org, it works
18:01:34  <Samu> nevermind, it's me who's confused
18:03:14  <Samu> why is it doing the executing cmdline non-stop?
18:03:23  <Samu> and it's not even executing anything
18:05:21  <Samu> will test again, see if it writes more than just that single line
18:05:23  <Samu> brb
18:13:37  <Samu> it's not doing the executing cmdline this time, strange
18:13:43  <Samu> what's wrong?
18:14:29  <Samu> it let me type exit
18:23:33  <Samu> this is strange, it didn't write anything at all
18:23:45  <Samu> it's strnge, I was expecting at least a line
18:25:33  <Samu> what is: ^C
18:26:56  <Alberth> at unix, it sends the application connected to the command window a request to stop
18:27:49  <Samu> i closed the console window clicking the 'X' and it dumped just ^C into the .log
18:28:02  <Alberth> oh
18:28:10  <Alberth> weird
18:29:10  <Alberth> closing the console window may be a bad idea for a console application
18:29:44  <Alberth> it's like someone taking all windows and doors out of your house and replacing them by a wall
18:30:14  <Alberth> ie you rip out all methods to talk to the outside world, for the application
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18:38:20  <Alberth> hi hi
18:41:37  <frosch123> hoi
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18:43:02  <Eddi|zuHause> polloi
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18:47:09  <Samu> gonna try 32 bit version
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18:51:52  <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601
18:51:55  <Samu> same thing
18:52:55  <glx> and with trunk it works ?
18:53:40  <Samu> gonna try that now
18:55:45  <Samu> downloaded trunk from here, as zip package, https://www.openttd.org/en/download-trunk
18:55:56  <Samu> it works, both 32-bit and 64-bit
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18:56:26  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27602 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2016-06-17 20:56:19 +0200 )
18:56:27  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6481]: Compilation with --disable-network. (Deranged)
18:56:33  <Samu> if I build them, from the source, also downloaded there, it won't work
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19:33:36  <Samu> doesn't work t.t
19:33:44  <Samu> r27602 just tested
19:34:02  <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27602
19:34:09  <Samu> rest goes to console
19:34:40  <glx> fail for me too with VS2015
19:35:47  <glx> mingw is ok
19:36:05  <glx> needs to rebuild with VS2012 to test
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19:59:41  <glx> works with VS2012
20:10:17  <Samu> does that mean vs120?
20:10:30  <Samu> oh
20:10:31  <glx> vs100
20:10:53  <Samu> ok let me try vs100, never actually used it
20:11:00  <glx> but I think it's because MS implemented vsnprintf
20:11:39  <glx> before VS2015 we needed our own function
20:13:08  <Samu> The build tools for Visual Studio 2010 (v100) cannot be found. To build using the Visual Studio 2015 (v140) build tools, either click the Project menu or right-click the solution, and then select "Upgrade Solution...". Install Visual Studio 2010 (v100) to build using the Visual Studio 2010 (v100) build tools.
20:13:13  <Samu> guess that i can't
20:16:24  <glx> hmm no, can't be because vsnprintf
20:16:48  <glx> but somehow something is done differently with VS2015
20:22:41  <glx> ok maybe because r27481
20:29:11  <frosch123> "CONOUT$" <- looks like basic :)
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20:30:12  <frosch123> it's actually interesting that basic went for a postfix syntax to differ types
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20:30:22  <frosch123> usually stuff uses prefixes
20:30:28  <glx> yeah, anyway other seems to have problems with redirections in VS2015
20:33:06  <Samu> that means if i try r27480, it may work
20:33:07  <Samu> ?
20:33:24  <glx> no :)
20:33:27  <Samu> :(
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20:33:54  <glx> or maybe it will output correctly to the file, but not on screen
20:35:43  <Samu> will test, just updated to r27480
20:35:47  <glx> https://github.com/benvanik/xenia/issues/228 <-- here a comment says the redirection to a file from command line indeed works
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20:55:51  <Samu> tried r27480, it dumps a lot of garbage to the .log file
20:55:58  <Samu> and then crashes shortly after
20:56:10  <Samu> a serious fault condition blabla
20:56:34  <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27480 first line
20:56:45  <Samu>                                              . .               Y@óœÿÃÑY@óœÿÃÑ®»hÅTÂÑ»[JÊTÂÑ @Q      @Q         "        O P E N G F ~ 1 . T A R o p e n g f x - 0 . 5 . 2 . t a r šFÝœÿÃÑšFÝœÿÃÑ©ȤRÂÑ©ȤRÂÑJ                                                   n o _ s o u n d . o b s   x       RšÝœÿÃÑRšÝœÿÃÑÙYçRÂÑÙYçRÂÑÌ™      Â
20:56:54  <Samu> and etc for the 2nd line onwards
20:56:59  <Samu> like that
20:57:40  <glx> yes VS2015 CRT changed things
20:58:03  <glx> and r27481 mostly fixed it
20:58:15  <Samu> ah yes. vs140
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20:58:31  <glx> but the fix breaks the redirection to file
20:58:41  <glx> happens for many projects
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21:32:22  <Samu> Wormnest:
21:32:38  <Samu> i will try doing the average column
21:33:01  <Samu> i think some AIs were being subsidized
21:33:06  <Samu> terron
21:33:09  <Samu> or cpu
21:33:19  <Wormnest> How do you mean
21:33:30  <Samu> simpleai too, but not sure if they were being subsidized at the moment
21:33:36  <Samu> at 2051
21:34:00  <Wormnest> Well thatÂŽs part of the game so thatÂŽs ok with me
21:34:43  <Wormnest> At that time it probably doesnÂŽt matter that much
21:35:51  <Samu> i was thinking this formula: best income of last 2 years / total number of vehicles
21:36:36  <Samu> there was another formula I'd like to do, related to road piece usage, to determine efficiency, but i'm not sure how to go about that
21:36:49  <Samu> i expect nocab to be quite inneficient
21:37:02  <Wormnest> 2 years might work too
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21:37:17  <Samu> and dicatorai to be very efficient, think it's dictator who removes roads
21:38:13  <Wormnest> Well NoCAB goes for profits it doesnÂŽt care about the amount of roads it uses
21:38:46  <Wormnest> However i did make some pathfinding cost changes that should lower the amount a little in my version
21:39:49  <Samu> gelignAIte should be super efficient
21:39:57  <Samu> it has more vehicles than road pieces, :p
21:40:19  <Samu> hmm i'm having a hard time to determine a formula for efficiency
21:40:35  <Wormnest> Well it only builds a few rvs and then stops
21:41:10  <Samu> it doesn't stop, it re-locates the station to the edge of the town it's working on
21:41:33  <Samu> it does that a few times, don't know how many, but seems to reach a point where it doesn't do anymore
21:42:17  <Wormnest> Still it doesnÂŽt build more than a few vehicles
21:43:10  <Wormnest> I think itÂŽs wrongly listed on the wiki in the list of competetive aiÂŽs since itÂŽs not really
21:45:13  <Wormnest> What is efficient. Earning the highest amount of money with the least costs
21:45:30  <Wormnest> or a nice looking network
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21:54:42  <Samu> the AI that surprised me the most was Trans
21:54:53  <Samu> i really expected much more
21:55:07  <Samu> it underperformed greatly from what I used to remember from it
21:55:51  <Samu> That road accross the map... took him 90 years pathfinding
21:55:55  <Samu> costed him the game
21:56:11  <Samu> I don't understand why it did that
21:58:21  <Wormnest> No idea. It sometimes doesnÂŽt peform very well for a long time and then all at once starts rising
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22:01:31  <Samu> 90 years with 250k #ops
22:01:36  <Samu> oh well
22:02:12  <Samu> now i'm testing trains
22:02:48  <Samu> wormai is gonna be tested as the last one, i'm doing it in abc order
22:04:00  <Samu> maybe not the last one. if some ais crash due to taking long to save, i will test them again, at the end of those that can survive autosaves
22:06:04  <Samu> choochoo is always faking crashes.. i kinda hate him lol
22:06:10  <Wormnest> My fixed version of nocab should perform better than the original at leat I think so
22:06:17  <Wormnest> but its not finished yet
22:07:14  <Wormnest> I dont like that in ChooChoo either but what can you do lol
22:08:54  <Samu> dictatorai doesn't build a train
22:09:48  <Samu> denver & rio grande is surviving
22:10:07  <Samu> his default values for bridge lenght is really bad
22:10:15  <Samu> i reduced that to 20
22:10:21  <Wormnest> The current version of Dictator has problems with trains, it often crashes when handling trains
22:10:52  <Samu> it doesn't start anything, just picks the engine, then gives up
22:10:57  <Samu> picks in the log
22:11:02  <Samu> let me check
22:11:53  <Samu> dbg: [script] [0] [I] Forcing build: We have 0 vehicle running ! dbg: [script] [0] [I] Hard times going on, unleashing routes dbg: [script] [0] [I] Analysing the task pool dbg: [script] [0] [E] cEngineLib: Invalid vehicleID or engineID : #7 NOAI error: ERR_NONE
22:12:00  <Wormnest> Hm might be that Im using a changed version not sure.
22:12:18  <Samu> NOAI error: ERR_NONE
22:12:33  <Samu> that's all i see on his log everytime it tries to "unleash" routes
22:12:55  <Samu> doesn't build any rail track or station, just nothing
22:21:22  <Samu> nocab crashed of course, so i'm testing 7
22:21:36  <Samu> AdmiralAI is beating everybody else
22:22:21  <Samu> FastPTPAI had quite a start, leaving everybody else in the dust, but now... not really
22:23:28  <Wormnest> DictatorAI has a forum message suggesting it has trains disabled probably because of bugs
22:26:43  <Samu> most profitable train, for now, goes to AIAI
22:27:09  <Samu> it's still 1990...
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