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Log for #openttd on 22nd August 2016:
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00:30:17  <Ethereal_Whisper> This is one of the stranger networks I've ever built
00:30:19  <Ethereal_Whisper> Lots of clutter
00:30:31  <Ethereal_Whisper> Playing on a 128x128 map with only one of each industry type (FIRS basic)
00:31:00  <Ethereal_Whisper> Just trying to link them all and keeping lines relatively separate... some are only single track, one-train lines, which feels weird to build but there's no point in making double track for it
00:31:39  <Ethereal_Whisper> http://puu.sh/qJHVx/5fd01a2627.png like this strange little cluster
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00:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the optimal for short distances is to double track only the loading station, then have one train moving while the other one loads
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00:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that way the rating doesn't drop while the train is on the way
00:35:46  <Ethereal_Whisper> Hm I'll do that
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00:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> adjust the length of the train so that it'll be done loading at the same time the other train returns
00:36:50  <Ethereal_Whisper> With that tiny of a distance, my TL would probably just be 1
00:36:51  <Ethereal_Whisper> Lol
00:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, could use trucks :p
00:37:31  <Ethereal_Whisper> That's no fun :P
00:37:48  <Eddi|zuHause> your income will be low if the vehicles load too long
00:37:56  <Ethereal_Whisper> I just made them crash whoops
00:38:01  <Ethereal_Whisper> Guess I'm rebuilding those short lines
00:38:24  <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, I cloned the wrong train
00:38:31  <Ethereal_Whisper> I put 3 scrap metal trains and 1 coal train
00:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the advantage of a small map is that you can really fine tune and micromanage the vehicles
00:40:48  <Ethereal_Whisper> I figured it out :)
00:42:30  <Ethereal_Whisper> http://puu.sh/qJIuC/39bd5a78ca.png now it's ideal
01:01:27  <supermop> those are pretty short trains
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02:22:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have left some room in platform length for expansion, once the production ramps up from supplies
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04:22:45  <Ethereal_Whisper> Eddi|zuHause, I ended up just starting a new game instead lol
04:22:54  <Ethereal_Whisper> Playing a different game with a friend at the moment though
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07:09:00  <andythenorth_> oftc let me back on \o/
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07:46:00  <Wolf01> o/
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08:27:05  <Ethereal_Whisper> o/ Wolf01
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09:32:39  <Ethereal_Whisper> o/ Wolf01
09:32:44  <Wolf01> o/
09:32:53  <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm playing a "blitz" type game
09:33:06  <Ethereal_Whisper> I put high density industries on a small map and am playing with a TL of 2
09:33:07  <Ethereal_Whisper> Lol
09:33:12  <Ethereal_Whisper> 150 trains in 1960, haha
09:33:22  <Wolf01> Nice
09:33:31  <Ethereal_Whisper> http://puu.sh/qK5pt/83e90d4f62.png and bullshit like this
09:33:51  <Ethereal_Whisper> Oooh I just noticed some unsignalled track haha
09:36:38  <V453000> max_trainz
09:36:58  <Ethereal_Whisper> I still like my "fork station" invention
09:37:08  <Ethereal_Whisper> Though I'm probably not the first person to come up with it
09:39:50  <V453000> can't tell until we see it :)
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09:40:11  <Ethereal_Whisper> http://puu.sh/qK6c7/b958f21f91.png
09:40:20  <Ethereal_Whisper> The main line "forks" around the station
09:40:46  <Ethereal_Whisper> In effect it's a very short side line (waiting bay for 1 train, 2 platforms, I use it for primary industry pickup stations) that's kind of an
09:40:51  <Wolf01> I usually I do it the other way, the station is split around the main line
09:40:52  <Ethereal_Whisper> island between the ML tracks
09:41:01  <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh now there's a thought
09:41:54  <Ethereal_Whisper> Wait, how would returning empty trains be able to choose between both available platforms then?
09:42:48  <Wolf01> Some diamond crosses before the entrances
09:43:06  <Ethereal_Whisper> Can you show me what you mean?
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09:47:51  <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/h7ap0qZ
09:48:40  <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, but then the empty trains cross the main line coming the other way =/
09:48:53  <Wolf01> So?
09:52:00  <V453000> Wolf01 you heretic
09:52:10  <Wolf01> :D
09:56:47  <Ethereal_Whisper> BURN THE WITCH
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10:13:35  <Ethereal_Whisper> http://puu.sh/qK7pn/8a032f7c9c.png max trains
10:13:40  <Ethereal_Whisper> Not even my busiest corridor lol
10:20:52  <Flygon> I was about to ask why your trains are going in reverse
10:21:00  <Flygon> Then I remembered that not everyone drives on the left
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11:12:03  <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
11:14:30  <argoneus> good morning train friends
11:14:47  <argoneus> Sova: I roll a die
11:14:59  <Sova> between which values? :)
11:15:00  <Eddi|zuHause> something between 3 and 15, mostly
11:15:05  <Sova> holy crap 15
11:15:06  <argoneus> 3-7
11:15:36  <Sova> hmmm
11:15:45  <Sova> when you play 3
11:15:54  <Sova> how do you handle industries which have high production values
11:16:01  <Sova> like around 1k per month
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11:16:06  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of trains
11:19:58  <Sova> thing is it seems to me that in this case I'd have to create huge stations
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11:20:50  <Sova> and usually there is not enough space
11:21:20  <Sova> how many lanes does your typical station have for lets say a production of 1k per month?
11:21:42  <V453000> 1
11:21:43  <V453000> :)
11:21:45  <V453000> hello
11:21:58  <Sova> 1? :D
11:22:05  <V453000> also, isn't building a big network a good thing to do in the game? :)
11:22:12  <V453000> 1k mine won't need more than 1 track
11:22:18  <Sova> oh yes!
11:22:25  <Sova> a station with only one track?
11:22:27  <V453000> station should be fine with 2 platforms for a long time
11:22:32  <Sova> ah yes sorry
11:22:36  <Sova> i meant platforms
11:22:37  <V453000> 2nd one mainly for keeping a train load at all time
11:22:50  <Sova> so 2 is enough?
11:22:52  <V453000> 4 platforms if you really want to make sure
11:22:54  <V453000> likely it will be
11:23:06  <V453000> you just need to have the stream of trains constant enough, or provide overflows etc
11:23:08  <Sova> hmmm interesting, looks like I always overkill it then
11:23:34  <V453000> well depends on trains obviously
11:23:43  <V453000> if you have 1900s trains it probably doesn't get so simple
11:24:08  <Sova> well yeah, I like to start at 1920 but things pickup nicely later on
11:24:25  <Sova> I like that sense of progression :)
11:25:02  <V453000> sure, but at 1920 the mine probably won't produce that much :)
11:25:34  <Sova> well in some cases, specially in FIRS things can get pretty hectic early with supplies
11:25:55  <Sova> if you send them over to mines
11:26:04  <V453000> yeah, to some degree, sure
11:26:14  <V453000> it's certainly faster growth than vanilla
11:26:30  <Sova> vanilla is just nuts later on though
11:26:37  <Sova> 2k per month??
11:26:49  <V453000> I personally find it very tetris like ... it's a scenario you can't win with reasonable network
11:27:02  <Sova> heh
11:27:02  <V453000> which is to some degree interesting
11:27:13  <V453000> but I like to load the Smaller Mines grf to reduce it
11:27:22  <V453000> so that you build a huge network with shitload of mines
11:27:24  <V453000> instead of just a few
11:27:41  <Sova> didn't even know that this grf existed
11:27:46  <Sova> I'll have to look into it
11:27:57  <V453000> it's really simple but really nice
11:28:08  <Sova> is this the one? - https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=73144
11:28:09  <V453000> one of the newer newgrfs ... Sylf wrote it :)
11:28:20  <V453000> yes, it's on bananas
11:28:47  <Sova> great, I'll definately look into it
11:29:19  <Sova> I'm guessing this will work with default industries only?
11:29:29  <Sova> no openx support?
11:30:25  <V453000> I think so
11:30:34  <V453000> I wouldn't expect it to work with opengfx+ industries
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12:03:40  <Sova> Let's say I have 2 mainlines that need to merge. How do you guys prio this? Just add block signals and call it a day?
12:04:36  <Wolf01> <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with? <- 5-10
12:05:10  <Sova> Hey Wolf01
12:05:13  <Sova> thanks
12:06:27  <Sova> When do you use TL10?
12:07:01  <Wolf01> Oh, totally random, but usually on long distance pax
12:07:15  <Sova> got it
12:10:11  <V453000> Sova: don't treat the priority like "this track is better than the other", but as a checking mechanism "is this track full, should I let trains join this track?"
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12:13:11  <Sova> That makes sense
12:14:20  <V453000> so if you have a Side Line -> main line junction, it's simple. You pick from the main lines, give the side line all posisble choices. and prioritize ML. Simple.
12:14:32  <V453000> with ML x ML, you just give priority to lines which don't have choices
12:14:40  <V453000> OR you give all lines choices and you don't need any priorities
12:14:52  <Sova> aha!
12:14:57  <V453000> because the choice is made by some places clogging up and forcing trains elsewhere
12:15:03  <V453000> since they ahve the options
12:15:20  <V453000> have you seen this page? https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Merging_Tracks
12:15:36  <Sova> indeed I have
12:16:46  <V453000> the most important thing to understand is this basically https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:Mergers_42innerOuter.png
12:17:23  <V453000> in fact you can array those mergers infinitely to get the amount of lines you want XD but it's generally not convenient
12:19:25  <Sova> If I'm correct, in the above picture we have only 2 lines that have a choice?
12:19:45  <V453000> yes
12:19:50  <Sova> and thusly they also have prio
12:19:51  <V453000> 2 have a choice and they merge onto the other ones
12:19:58  <Sova> oh now other wawy around
12:20:06  <Sova> the ones that don't have choice
12:20:07  <Sova> have pro
12:20:09  <Sova> prio
12:20:09  <V453000> yes
12:20:17  <V453000> because they can't divert traffic anywhere
12:20:25  <V453000> they don't detect which line is full or empty
12:20:32  <Sova> is it better to always provide choice for everything?
12:20:38  <V453000> trains from inside check which line is full(er), and go to the emptier one
12:21:00  <V453000> eh, it's an option and it's easier to keep track of it later in the game, but it's not necessary
12:22:47  <V453000> but it is a big space saver if you declare some lines to be non-choice
12:22:55  <V453000> for example if you have 4+4->6
12:22:59  <V453000> you make 6 tracks no choice
12:23:06  <V453000> and only make 2 choose from all the 6
12:23:16  <V453000> so the resulting merger is actually pretty small
12:23:34  <Sova> yeah
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12:32:47  <V453000> the thing is that you don't just build things and leave them alone, you usually expand a lot
12:33:05  <Wolf01> https://www.flickr.com/photos/galaktek/25388766714/ nice and useful train
12:33:10  <V453000> which is why making all to all-ish is handy
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12:33:33  <Flygon> <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
12:33:34  <Flygon> 50
12:33:47  <Flygon> <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
12:33:49  <Flygon> Er
12:33:55  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdbigboy48tiles.png
12:34:00  <Flygon> I CTRL+V failed :U
12:34:18  <V453000> congratulations you managed to click 96 times in depot
12:34:24  <Sova> 50 :)
12:34:36  <V453000> tracks don't even know how to signal, gg
12:34:54  <Sova> signals each 50 tiles :)
12:35:19  <V453000> ._.
12:35:24  <Wolf01> I don't place many signals too
12:35:34  <Sova> no but really how does this work?
12:35:34  <Flygon> V453000: The map had only one refinery
12:35:36  <Flygon> Seriously
12:35:58  <Flygon> So it actually became efficient to make smaller 7-20 tile long trains feed the 48 tile long monsters
12:36:07  <Sova> hahhaha
12:36:08  <Flygon> It would've been 64 tiles, but I physically ran out of space
12:36:40  <Flygon> Either way
12:36:49  <Flygon> It does justify the Big Boy in the 2CC set
12:36:59  <Flygon> In low-speed operations, no-less
12:38:27  <Sova> I don't really play 2cc as there are too many trains in that set for my taste and I use maybe 10% of them if even that many
12:39:16  <V453000> yep
12:40:10  <Flygon> xP It depends on the era
12:40:18  <Flygon> Pre-1900,I find I use almost all of them
12:40:31  <Flygon> 1920-1990... a lot simply aren't useful
12:40:46  <Flygon> Usually because the company is so big, it's not worth faffing over the cost/benefit ratios of individual locos
12:41:00  <Flygon> And it's easier to just standardize on specific models
12:41:05  <V453000> there is always one locomotive which is ultimately best
12:41:26  <Flygon> Exactly
12:41:40  <Flygon> Like, the Big Boy in the screenshot was an unusual case where I couldn't use a standard loco
12:41:42  <Flygon> Not the norm
12:42:08  <Flygon> A standard loco would've needed around 5-7 of them, cost more, run slower, and be a pita to autoreplace
12:42:34  <Sova> Couldn't you have used smaller trains? Only much more of them? :)
12:42:34  <Flygon> iirc, I eventually obsoleted the Big Boys in the 1970s with electric locos (once they caught up). Nothing else in the set had the TE required.
12:42:44  <Flygon> Nah
12:42:48  <Flygon> 1. That's not as cool
12:42:55  <Flygon> 2. It's too fussy to run
12:43:00  <Flygon> 3. Big Boys were cheaper
12:43:10  <Flygon> Because there was just one loco for such a massive load
12:43:23  <Flygon> And it made designing terminals easier
12:44:04  <V453000> cheaper is usually irrelevant considering the amount of money you have, and the ultra simple method how you make money in this game
12:44:18  <V453000> not as cool is great, but you need at least some reasonable reasons
12:44:54  <V453000> but yeah, bla bla, nuts, blabla, choices, blabla, gameplay
12:45:22  <Flygon> xP It WAS a reasonably reason!
12:45:32  <Flygon> It made the game eaiser to play :)
12:45:33  <Sova> reasonable reason :)
12:46:52  <Flygon> Tried to find more screenshots in my Dropbox
12:46:59  <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/zigzagoonshopping.jpg But all I found was a raccoon shopping instead
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12:47:16  <Sova> not sure what to think of that :)
12:48:05  <Flygon> Me neither
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13:11:52  <Samu> https://imageproxy.tt-forums.net/4de46883c528f72a1fe2163c4ed51d3e8c8e8338/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f556273794831772e706e67
13:12:28  <Samu> those horizontal and vertical routes for aircraft
13:13:04  <Samu> do aircraft get better profits if the routes are horizontal/vertical aligned, instead of diagonal?
13:13:18  <Samu> seems fishy, i got to test this
13:15:34  <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: handy train, reminded me of a movie :-) https://youtu.be/AQUtKIkri3w?t=29s
13:16:06  <Wolf01> XD
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13:25:15  <Samu> holy crap
13:25:27  <Samu> i hope this is fixable
13:27:31  <Samu> going from coordinates 993x20 to 993x220 (200 tiles distance) takes more time than going from coordinates 801x174 to 901x274 (200 tiles distance), using aircraft
13:27:54  <Samu> travel time 61 days vs 50 day
13:27:55  <Samu> s
13:29:13  <Samu> on the way back, travel time was 65 days vs 49 days
13:29:39  <Samu> it's confirmed then, horizontal/vertical aligned aircraft routes profit more
13:29:48  <Samu> because they travel faster
13:32:15  <Samu> should I report this finding as a bug, or is it known/intended?
13:43:50  <_dp_> how is 60 days faster than 50?
13:45:18  <Samu> the yearly income shows
13:45:49  <Samu> £29,269 for the 60 days aircraft vs £35,753 for the 50 days aircraft
13:46:36  <_dp_> so what is better? diagonals? that's expected
13:46:47  <Samu> no, vertical/horizontal
13:47:01  <Samu> https://imageproxy.tt-forums.net/4de46883c528f72a1fe2163c4ed51d3e8c8e8338/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f556273794831772e706e67
13:47:36  <_dp_> you said vertical is 60 days (993x20 to 993x220)
13:47:36  <Samu> that's nocab ai, he removes the less profitable routes from time to time, and i noticed the majority of routes he kept are vertical/horizontal
13:48:33  <_dp_> ah, you call it backwards, vertical on map is diagonal on tiles
13:49:07  <_dp_> yeah, that's pretty well-known, diagonal trains are better too
13:49:32  <Samu> really? seems unfair
13:50:03  <_dp_> there is no fair solution because rv can't go diagonal
13:50:21  <Wolf01> That's because of TT timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly calculation of 2.5D proportions
13:50:46  <_dp_> so cargo is paid for manhattan distance instead of some else
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13:53:32  <Samu> slow down vehicles when they're going vertically/horizontally?
13:53:35  <Samu> to compensate?
13:53:53  <Samu> even if it impacts road vehicles, it should be minimal
13:53:55  <_dp_> Samu, https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1063
13:57:00  <Samu> i see
13:57:16  <_dp_> and diagonal track are harder to build so it kinda balances it
13:57:30  <Samu> not for aircraft, they don't seem to care
13:58:09  <Samu> maybe the profit formula could be adjusted
13:58:11  <_dp_> aircrafts are broken anyway :p
13:58:20  <supermop_> yo
13:58:26  <Samu> income
13:59:42  <Samu> have the income formula take into account some sort of penalty for traveling vertically? hmm
14:00:23  <_dp_> Samu, you need to remember how each cargo was transported then
14:00:49  <Samu> i see
14:00:55  <Samu> not easy to deal with
14:01:54  <_dp_> hm, may not be that hard though as it only needs to remember amount of diagonal and total tiles...
14:04:57  <_dp_> if based on diagonal/total ratio may be reasonably fair, at least I don'see any problem yet
14:07:12  <Samu> a penalty for each type of vehicle on the income formula?
14:07:22  <Samu> adjusted differently?
14:07:59  <Samu> i dunno just giving out ideas
14:08:28  <_dp_> Samu, and what to do with transfers7
14:10:30  <_dp_> if rvs are paid more you just do transfer carousel after diagonal train unload
14:12:47  <Samu> i was thinking, if the train transfers it into a lorry station, have that penalty already applied
14:13:18  <Samu> a->b->c, a->b is train, apply train penalty when the cargo arrives at b
14:13:40  <Samu> b->c take the already penalized cargo then apply anothr penalty for road vehicle
14:13:51  <Samu> once it reaches c
14:15:12  <_dp_> Samu, payments are only calculated when cargo is accepted by consumer, transfer payments are purely virtual
14:15:40  <Samu> oh, then i don't know :(
14:18:16  <supermop_> i don't think it is unfair - every player faces the same situation
14:20:00  <supermop_> same as how if you want to build a route at a roughly 2:1 angle - you are better to build it in large staggered steps rather than steps shorter than train length - even though the latter 'looks' like its a smoother, more direct route
14:21:05  <supermop_> also a turn can be 'sharp' for a long train, but the same turn will have no speed penalty if the train is a bit shorter
14:21:56  <Samu> slowing down vehicles on vertical/horizontal tiles was my first idea, but you say it is affecting wagons
14:22:02  <supermop_> it is just the strange physics of the universe where TT exists
14:25:17  <Samu> hmm let me think
14:26:18  <Samu> let's say the penalty is 25%, a train going at 100 km/h won't really have all of his wagons on the vertical/horizontal tracks
14:27:13  <Samu> if the size of each carriage/engine  is 0.5 and the train is sized 6.0
14:27:52  <Samu> penalty is based on the number of wagons that are currently on a vertical/horizontal track
14:28:23  <Samu> not always 25% then, but... varied, up to a max of 25% when all wagons are in fact in vertical/horizontal
14:28:56  <Samu> how to get the final result, i just dont know :(
14:29:31  <Wolf01> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ56qYod0gs :o
14:30:00  <Samu> 6/0,5 = 12, right?
14:30:37  <Samu> 25/12 = 2,0833
14:31:16  <Samu> each wagon/engine sized 0,5 that enters a vertical/horizontal track slows down the whole train by 2,0833%
14:32:21  <Samu> 100 km/h > 98 km/h > 96 km/h > etc... > 75 km/h
14:33:00  <Samu> if one of the engines/wagon that was going vertically/horizontally suddenly goes diagonal, then up the speed by that same %
14:33:11  <Samu> instantly, no acceleration
14:34:16  <Samu> so in essence, the goal is to achieve parity with pure diagonal travelling days
14:34:41  <Samu> turn 50 days into 60 days travel time
14:34:48  <Samu> dunno how much of a penalty that is
14:40:17  <Samu> the speed is applied to the entire train, not individually
14:40:30  <Samu> would that avoid the overlapping issue?
14:40:59  <Wolf01> But I expect a train travelling always at the same speed on a straight track
14:42:23  <Samu> it would still display 100 km/h, but wouldn't really be going at 100 km/h
14:43:55  <Samu> how noticeable would that be for the player obvserving? i don't really know
14:45:18  <Samu> probably noticeable on very short trains, but not so much on long trains
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14:56:09  <Wolf01> o/
14:58:10  <Alberth> hi hi
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15:04:54  <Wolf01> https://youtu.be/HR5dEc5VeNw?t=956 ha! They didn't change the entire wheels but only the external ring
15:06:22  <Samu> i'm trying that patch there, see what exactly happens
15:06:23  <Samu> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1063
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15:27:55  <Alberth> you can just see it in the game
15:28:26  <Alberth> compare length of the diagonal wagon vs the non-diagonal length
15:28:42  <Alberth> NUTS shows it very clearly
15:29:45  <Alberth> #6121 is related :)
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15:41:56  <Alberth> o/
15:42:18  <Wolf01> o/
15:42:30  <andythenorth_> Composited vehicles :o
15:42:32  <supermop_> boat man
15:42:49  <andythenorth_> All my pixa work is for nothing :p
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15:51:15  <andythenorth_> Unstable connection is unstable
15:53:07  <Samu> has there been a patch about speed penalty?
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15:54:20  <Samu> penalize current vehicle speed when they're on + tracks?
15:54:27  <Samu> vertical/horizontal
15:55:30  <Samu> why do you say diagonal?
15:55:42  <andythenorth_> 'Buy menu contains too many vehicles' <- overstated problem?
15:56:04  <Alberth> for fish/squid?   definitely
15:56:16  * andythenorth_ seeking schema / theme for ships
15:56:52  <Alberth> well, compared to default ships, it is large :p
15:57:03  <andythenorth_> for RVs, finding right 'shape' for set took many iterations
15:57:04  <Samu> and i dunno what the penalty should be, how to calculate it
15:57:08  <Alberth> or rather, default ships is ridiculously small :p
15:58:08  <andythenorth_> 'Limited vehicles' works for trains where player can arrange consist as needed
15:58:29  <andythenorth_> Works for airplanes fine, due to limited application
15:58:45  <andythenorth_> RVs, not so much
15:59:06  <andythenorth_> Ships, I'm not sure small buy menu works at all
15:59:44  <Samu> "the speed of a train on a diagonal is about 0.707v horizontal and vertical where v is its nominal speed when travelling orthogonally." is this official?
16:00:17  <Alberth> it is in the real world, due to geometry
16:00:32  <Samu> dont care about real world
16:00:37  <Samu> what about openttd?
16:00:40  <Alberth> based on distance of two opposite corner
16:01:07  <andythenorth_> Is that 0.5 * root 2?
16:01:24  <Alberth> yep
16:01:34  <andythenorth_> Figures
16:01:40  <Alberth> about 1.4 / 2
16:02:18  <Alberth> too long buy menu for your road hog with all cargoes?
16:02:28  <andythenorth_> Not imho
16:03:03  <andythenorth_> Assuming you only look at depot buy menu, not 'available vehicles'
16:03:16  <andythenorth_> Due to tram/street split
16:04:20  <Samu> t.t
16:04:34  * andythenorth_ inclined to supply a lot of smaller ship sizes, and only a few large sizes
16:05:47  <Samu> i'm gonna base myself on travel time and try to calculate the penalty
16:05:51  <Samu> brb
16:06:00  <andythenorth_> 30 pax vs 90 pax might be a useful option, but 450 or 600 are both about same
16:06:22  <andythenorth_> precision matters less with routes that need larger vehicles?
16:07:58  * andythenorth_ wonders about watertypes :p
16:10:34  <Alberth> we have that, right? :)
16:11:14  <andythenorth_> in a slightly useless way yes :)
16:11:18  <Alberth> I agree with "more and less precise"
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16:11:51  <Alberth> basically you add sufficient to fill required transport capacity
16:12:06  <andythenorth_> Canal vs sea is amongst the least useful newgrf ideas :)
16:12:22  <Alberth> where the main benefit of a large ship is reduced running cost, probably
16:12:48  <andythenorth_> I think the main benefit of larger ships is eye candy
16:13:02  <andythenorth_> Same as long trains, they're nice to watch
16:13:11  <andythenorth_> ;)
16:13:14  <Alberth> also a good point :)
16:13:44  <Alberth> I am just too busy with cargo flow :p
16:13:52  <andythenorth_> :p
16:14:48  <Alberth> what other water types are you considering?
16:15:10  <andythenorth_> I have never discovered any tbh
16:15:30  <andythenorth_> Sea vs canal isn't types really
16:15:36  <Alberth> ha, a single water type "water"  thus :p
16:15:40  <andythenorth_> Just makes slow vehicles slower
16:16:08  <Alberth> it could force a transfer point
16:16:17  <andythenorth_> sea ships can't be prevented from canals or vice versa, so it's not interesting currently
16:16:21  <Alberth> but maybe tmwftlb
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16:16:59  <Alberth> 1km/h for a sea ship at a canal is quiteeffective :p
16:17:06  <andythenorth_> Different docks would force it
16:17:12  <Wolf01> Going out for dinner. Bye
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16:17:19  <andythenorth_> Crippling the speed is just irritating :)
16:17:29  <Alberth> yeah, indeed
16:17:40  <andythenorth_> Ban sea ships from locks?
16:17:48  <andythenorth_> Probably an easy patch
16:18:41  <Alberth> and then?
16:18:42  <andythenorth_> Watertypes discussion has never so far produced worthwhile idea :D
16:18:58  <andythenorth_> yeah, I have nothing
16:19:57  <Alberth> main achievement would be another flag expressing realism :p
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16:20:39  <Alberth> yeah, not going anywhere today with water types :)
16:20:50  <andythenorth_> Size at dock?
16:21:06  <andythenorth_> Docks get n units of ship capacity?
16:21:15  <andythenorth_> Each ship takes x units?
16:21:53  <Alberth> so limit capacity of a dock?
16:22:08  <Alberth> or is n and x constant?
16:22:25  <Alberth> which basically bans some ships
16:22:27  <Samu> loading capacity of a dock
16:22:36  <andythenorth_> X constant per ship type
16:23:02  <Samu> load x units of cargo per interval
16:23:32  <Alberth> no station does that currenrtly
16:23:55  <Samu> suppose there's 10 ships loading and suddenly 500 cargo appears at the dock
16:24:18  <Alberth> it makes more sense to make ships take room at a dock
16:24:23  <andythenorth_> Equivalent to drive-through RV stops handling of vehicle lenght
16:24:28  <andythenorth_> Yes
16:24:28  <Samu> instead of having all ships pick the cargo, have only 1 ship pick x per interval
16:24:45  <andythenorth_> Size = better ide
16:24:52  <andythenorth_> Idea*
16:25:23  <Samu> 10 ships, each with 50 capacity
16:25:55  <andythenorth_> Alberth so a dock might load 3 small ships or one large one
16:26:11  <Alberth> something like that
16:26:16  <Samu> :( guess i'm talking about a different idea
16:26:21  <Samu> sorry
16:26:26  <Alberth> but pretty soon you'll want multi-docks then
16:27:05  <Alberth> Samu: limiting load capacity is not in the game currently, it's a bit weird to add it to ship docks, and not to trains/RVs/Aircraft
16:27:51  <Alberth> the latter have limits due to size of the vehicle, or limited number of places for loading
16:28:13  <Alberth> so it makes more sense to add the latter kind of limit also to ship docks
16:28:36  <andythenorth_> Multi-docks is entailed in this idea :D
16:28:46  <andythenorth_> I snuck it in :p
16:29:10  <Alberth> I think it's the inevitable next question
16:29:33  <Alberth> if you limit capacity, you want more platforms
16:30:20  <Samu> 1 ship per platform?
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16:30:55  <andythenorth_> Build docks in tiles like RV stops
16:30:57  <Samu> 1 dock, 3 platforms?
16:30:59  <Alberth> currently you cannot have several docks with the same station afaik
16:31:07  <andythenorth_> One ship per water side
16:31:38  <andythenorth_> Large ships might need three or four tiles in a contiguous line
16:31:54  <Samu> loading capacity for stations seems like an interesting idea though
16:32:02  <andythenorth_> Probably tmwtflb
16:32:06  <andythenorth_> But eh
16:33:13  <Samu> i'm currently doing a test with road vehicles, and there's something odd with travel times
16:33:33  <Samu> north to south, on the same road in a zig-zag shape, took 126 days
16:33:39  <Samu> south to north, took 130 days
16:33:45  <Samu> drive on right
16:34:06  <Samu> is this a bug, am i missing something?
16:34:21  <andythenorth_> Headwind?
16:34:29  <andythenorth_> From north?
16:35:07  <Samu> screenshot http://imgur.com/a/RgjJB
16:35:15  <Samu> road vehicle 2
16:35:36  <Samu> going north takes more time than going south
16:35:41  <Samu> why's that
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16:39:44  <andythenorth_> Quak
16:39:52  <frosch123> hoi
16:40:10  <Samu> headwind what is that?
16:42:13  <supermop_> andythenorth_: choppy water vs smooth harbour?
16:42:34  <Samu> just tried with original acceleration model
16:42:44  <andythenorth_> ? o_O
16:42:45  <Samu> 130 days going south, 133 days going north
16:42:49  <andythenorth_> Supermop
16:43:01  <Samu> the problem is in the track itself?
16:43:23  <supermop_> shallow submerged rocks and sandbars that only dingies can traverse
16:44:17  <Alberth> Samu: swap direction of the vehicles
16:44:33  <Alberth> if the track is the problem, you'll get the same result
16:44:50  <Alberth> if direction is the problem, you'll get different results
16:45:06  <Samu> ok, gonna try
16:45:19  <Alberth> if both are a problem, I don't know :)
16:45:20  <andythenorth_> Biab
16:45:31  <supermop_> same, lunch
16:45:31  <Alberth> bye for now
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16:49:12  <Samu> i get a different, yet similar result
16:49:27  <Samu> north to south 130 days
16:49:31  <Samu> south to north 126 days
16:50:32  <Samu> going north now takes less time, the situation reversed
16:51:07  <V453000> frosch123: how does the sorting of layers for layered vehicles work? Can I for example have layers ABCD show as ABCD in one train view, and when reversed have the layering as ABDC ?
16:51:57  <frosch123> the grf defines the order
16:52:19  <frosch123> chaning the order is essentialy swapping lines in a switch
16:53:45  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/puyzaw735 <- that's my testgrf
16:56:06  <V453000> right
16:56:17  <V453000> but can I change that for the same vehicle, just different rotations?
16:56:30  <frosch123> there is a direction variable
16:56:36  <V453000> nice :D
16:56:45  <frosch123> first switch on "direction", then switch on "layer"
16:56:54  <V453000> yeah
16:56:55  <V453000> cool
16:57:03  <V453000> just one essential thing I thought of :)
16:58:00  <frosch123> maybe semi-trailer rv can make use of that
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17:15:05  <Samu> i'm getting an approximate 66% slower or 50% faster
17:15:09  <Samu> for the penalty
17:15:21  <Samu> using trains
17:16:28  <Samu> if the distance is the same
17:16:55  <Samu> the train going diagonal is 66% slower than the train going vertical
17:17:02  <Samu> erm 33%
17:17:04  <Samu> sorry
17:17:17  <Samu> it travels at 66% of the speed of the other that is
17:17:28  <Samu> bah i suck at math
17:17:49  <Samu> 296/443 or 443/296
17:18:21  <Samu> 296/443 = 0,6681715575620767
17:18:38  <Samu> 443/296 = 1,496621621621622
17:18:53  <V453000> frosch123: if you place 2 or more containers on a flatbed, you need container A be on top in 1 view, container B in the other
17:19:03  <V453000> I think it's super common to be necessary
17:20:28  <Samu> help me at math. if I want the train that took 296 days to travel to take 443 days instead, I multiply it by 0,66 or by 1.50?
17:20:58  <Samu> 1.5
17:21:40  <frosch123> is that a valid use case though?
17:21:47  <frosch123> you cannot change the position of the sprites
17:21:57  <Samu> let me try a max speed, it's nice that openttd has the option to limit speeds
17:22:02  <frosch123> so you need different sprites for the two containers
17:22:24  <frosch123> so, i would think loading stages are still complete sprites
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17:22:35  <frosch123> and not an add-on to the previous loading stage
17:22:49  <frosch123> btw. i limit it currently to maximum 4 sprites per articulated part
17:22:58  <frosch123> just to prevent newgrfs from getting greedy :)
17:24:46  <Samu> awesome, i got it right!
17:25:22  <Samu> the penalty is bigger than i thought
17:26:58  <Samu> a train moving at 64 km/h needs to divide it by 1.50
17:27:09  <Samu> 43 km/h got it right where I wanted
17:27:19  <Samu> took 443 days at 43 km/h
17:30:08  <Samu> a train moving at 100 km/h would be moving at 66.67 km/h
17:30:30  <Samu> looks quite a sharp penalty
17:31:01  <Samu> but it achieves time travel parity
17:31:24  <planetmaker> 4 sprites are enough for everyone ;)
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17:33:09  * Rebecca looks around
17:33:22  <frosch123> bo!
17:33:24  <Alberth> nobody here :)
17:35:45  * Rebecca says hello
17:37:07  <NGC3982> I'm having the worst issues with going back and forth between ottd and citites skylines
17:37:24  <frosch123> easy, just stay with ottd
17:37:33  <NGC3982> I'm always confused by the fact that wasd doesn't do anything. :-p
17:38:53  * Rebecca wonders
17:38:53  <Alkel_U3> worse - it does different stuff. And yeah, I deal with that, too, occasionaly :-)
17:39:42  <Alberth> Rebecca: it's ok to just talk :)
17:39:53  <NGC3982> :-P
17:39:59  <Rebecca> Has anyone gotten OpenTTD to work with Native Client?
17:40:11  <NGC3982> This channel must be pro-skylines, i guess.
17:40:19  * Rebecca has a question tho ^ .....
17:40:23  <Alberth> euhm, what's a Native Client ?
17:40:36  <Rebecca> https://developer.chrome.com/native-client
17:40:56  <Rebecca> It's a way to run apps like OpenTTD on Chrome-based devices.
17:41:09  <Alberth> ah, right
17:41:19  <Alkel_U3> NGC3982: kinda, but mostly Factorio :D
17:41:27  <Alberth> no idea, you're the first that I see mentioning it :)
17:41:36  * Rebecca nods
17:41:51  <Rebecca> I found a few old logs of Hexxeh getting somewhere.
17:41:55  <Alkel_U3> oh, than I mistook it for some other channel elswhere
17:42:09  <Alberth> which is not promising in finding people that have it running :)
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17:42:29  <Alberth> you could post at tt-forums, to find other people, perhaps
17:42:33  * andythenorth_ needs to pin down some ship capacities
17:42:37  <Alberth> bigger audience than here
17:42:49  * Rebecca nods
17:42:50  <Rebecca> http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1323366805#1323366805
17:43:00  <Rebecca> ^ From there to the end of the page.
17:43:22  <Alberth> @seen Hexxeh
17:43:22  <DorpsGek> Alberth: Hexxeh was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 16 weeks, 5 days, 0 hours, 43 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Hexxeh> ah, thought the title screen stuff was music rather than sfx, that's okay
17:43:40  <Alberth> he didn't say much lately :)
17:44:38  <NGC3982> Alkel_U3: Factorio is nice. I have yet to complete the tutorial, tho.
17:44:51  <NGC3982> Is it "though" in english, and "tho" in american?
17:44:53  <frosch123> Rebecca: there is a javascript port of sdl and openttd via emscripten
17:46:46  <Rebecca> NGC3982, "though" == "tho"
17:47:15  <Rebecca> The one is a shortened version of the other.
17:47:17  <Alkel_U3> NGC3982: when you're finished with that (estimating 80 - 200 h), move onto Dwarf Fortress :P
17:47:32  <NGC3982> Alkel_U3: Oh my.
17:47:42  <andythenorth_> For pax ships, seems that 30-40 pax is always a good entry point
17:47:47  <Rebecca> frosch123, SDL is ported to Native Client.
17:47:59  <Alkel_U3> hm, probably more if I take mods into account
17:48:37  <Rebecca> I had a few changes that I had to make for it to compile, though.
17:48:49  <Rebecca> *There were a few changes
17:49:25  <Samu> what is the equivalent track type for aircraft? is it like rails?
17:49:39  <Samu> where in the tile do they travel?
17:50:53  <andythenorth_> 30, 90, 180, 360, 720?
17:53:10  <Alberth> aircraft don't have tracks, they fly in one of 8 directions towards the next point
17:54:02  <Alberth> andythenorth_:  alll multiples of 30 by design?
17:55:20  <Alberth> I'd just do 30 or so, like 30, 120, 720
17:56:16  <frosch123> s/30/3/ ?
17:56:37  <Alberth> unless you want a lot of different ships
17:56:45  <Samu> alberth, about the road vehicle travel time issue, i tried a max speed of 40 km/h for all different buses
17:56:53  <Alberth> frosch123: haha, yes indeed :)
17:56:58  <Samu> oops all different routes, not buses
17:57:04  <Samu> one route is a pure straight line
17:57:34  <Samu> the other is zig-zag, and the other is, instead of a zig-zag, it's 2 straight lines with only a curve
17:58:11  <Samu> they all got 141 days for travel time, except zig-zag direction south-north with drive on right
17:58:15  <Samu> got 135
17:58:25  <Samu> I suppose the problem is there
17:58:40  <Samu> north-south got 141 days
17:59:24  <Alberth> sounds weird indeed
18:00:03  <Alberth> maybe an off-by-one error?
18:00:19  <Alberth> although 6 days is a lot
18:00:40  <Samu> gah typo, north-south got 135 days, south-north got 141 days, my bad
18:01:12  <Alberth> how many corners does it have
18:01:13  <Alberth> ?
18:01:24  <Samu> hmm the entirety of it
18:01:52  <Alberth> tile positions?
18:02:54  <Samu> sec, i'll give u savegame
18:02:54  <Alberth> @calc 6*72
18:02:54  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 432
18:03:10  <Alberth> map of 1000x1000?
18:03:26  <Samu> ah no, distance is 200 tiles i think
18:03:27  <Alberth> or 512x512?
18:03:32  <Samu> 1024x1024
18:03:53  <Alberth> use the '?' tool to query position of both end points
18:04:02  <andythenorth_> Alberth FISH has too many sizes, Squid  maybe not enough
18:04:02  <andythenorth_> Bbl
18:04:38  <V453000> frosch123: I wanted to do something wtf with 5 layers but I will humbly accept 4 :P
18:04:44  <V453000> will work
18:04:52  <Samu> https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjiiqXQDrHDYD8vIzu savegame
18:04:58  <Alberth> andythenorth_:  doubling the previous size can be easily done with buying a second ship
18:05:13  <Samu> 901x274x1 station at south
18:05:22  <frosch123> V453000: it's an arbitrary limit
18:05:25  <Alberth> ugh 1drive :(
18:05:27  <Samu> 800x175x1 station at north
18:05:53  <Samu> i tried both at 801x174x1 and then 800x175x1, no difference
18:06:00  <Alberth> ah, so about 100 in each direction
18:06:18  <frosch123> ottd currently resolves all the sprites of the vehicles all the times, so i just want to prevent grfs going nuts with cpu power :p
18:06:50  <Samu> does the link work?
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18:07:25  <Alberth> Samu: I don't even try, that site uses a zillion other sites with all kinds of scripts
18:07:38  <Samu> oh ok,i post on the forum
18:07:57  <Alberth> but you gave the positions
18:08:32  <Alberth> I just wanted a sort of indication of the road length
18:08:50  <V453000> frosch123: I think 4 is fine, I wanted something really stupid
18:09:10  <V453000> 8 would be really awesome but 4 works for vast majority of cases probably
18:09:23  <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=194301
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18:10:34  <Alberth> there should be a difference between position 800 and 801, but you can't measure it by watching, probably
18:11:00  <Alberth> if 100 tiles is 6 days, 1 tile is 6/100 of a day
18:11:11  <Alberth> which is around 5 ticks
18:11:46  <Alberth> not something you can see very well
18:12:10  <supermop_> ok
18:12:17  <supermop_> yo andythenorth_
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18:12:56  <Samu> i got another idea
18:13:24  <Samu> i put 2 buses starting at the same time, one goes north, the other goes south, will see who arrives at the opposite station first
18:13:35  <Samu> both limited to 40 km/h
18:16:43  <supermop_> well he's gone
18:16:53  <Samu> north-south bus arrived first
18:17:06  <supermop_> but one way to make bigger ships more interesting would be multiple holds
18:17:29  <Alberth> yep, but that's an openttd engine limitation
18:17:31  <Samu> south-north bus is about 6 tiles away from reaching north station, it's really noticeable
18:18:09  <supermop_> currently if i can have 2x 300t ship or 1x600t, the 2x 300t has the flexibility of holding two cargoes, the 600t has no advantage
18:18:10  <Alberth> same cargo problem exists with aircraft, to a lesser extend
18:18:30  <Samu> http://imgur.com/a/flJPD
18:18:32  <Alberth> and Rvs to an even lessier extent :p
18:18:35  <Samu> that's the difference
18:18:41  <supermop_> aircraft can sort of hack it with cargo in shadow
18:19:10  <supermop_> aircraft, the big plane has an advantage in landing pattern time
18:19:48  <Alberth> Samu: yep, you'd expect the same result, which thus indeed happens
18:20:18  <Alberth> supermop_: they do?
18:20:26  <supermop_> one 300 seat plane has a set time to approach, land, and taxi,
18:20:42  <supermop_> 3x 100 seat planes have to do that same time per each
18:21:08  <supermop_> so there is a tradeoff in efficiency vs granularity
18:21:16  <supermop_> with ships
18:21:16  <Alberth> oh, better throughput, yes
18:21:43  <Alberth> not with ships, as they move completely independently
18:21:45  <supermop_> 3 100t ships can overlap the same tile if you want them to
18:21:45  <Samu> is it fixable?
18:22:12  <Samu> problem appears to be with only 1 of the directions, as per the other comparison
18:22:29  <supermop_> so more small ships gives you the increased granularity but no loss in efficiency (other than cpu cost of pathfinder)
18:22:30  <Samu> north - south is too fast, with drive on right
18:22:33  <Alberth> Samu: to answer that you need to know the cause dirst
18:22:57  <Alberth> *first
18:23:24  <Samu> in the savegame i gave u, you can see the other buses got the same time of 141 in every direction, only exception was that one north-south with 135 days
18:23:36  <Samu> i guess that's where the problem is
18:23:47  <supermop_> if you have a good enough cpu, ideally you would have 1000s of little jet skis carrying 1t each
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18:24:48  <supermop_> ships are super easy to timetable too, so with small ships just keep adding more as demand increases
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18:27:55  <supermop_> also, if you want to always have one ship loading, easy way is to have one extra ship timetabled, waiting for the next to arrive. if i have a 120 day round trip, I could have one 300t ship every 30 days, and buy 5, with an extra 30 days wait and the loading dock
18:28:55  <supermop_> with 100t ships, i can have one every 10 days, so buy 13 with an extra 10 days wait
18:29:48  <supermop_> in the latter case I have all of the same advantages, but only 100t of slack capacity instead of 300t
18:30:31  <supermop_> and balancing with purchase or running cost alone is probably too boring or negligible to be worth it
18:31:10  <supermop_> as andy said, the only reason to use the big boat is that it looks cool
18:32:04  <Samu> haven't tested ships, but i expect the penalty is also current speed/1.5
18:33:02  <supermop_> which is a perfectly fair reason to be honest. I am fine with ships as is, but if andy wants ideas to make them more interesting, maybe that is where to explore
18:33:22  <Samu> brb creating a ship sceratio
18:33:25  <Samu> scenario
18:36:04  <Alberth> andy is always improving things :)
18:37:43  <supermop_> Alberth: sometimes i think it might be best not to stir up extra ideas with him
18:38:18  <Alberth> not sure that helps, he seems to have sufficient ideas of his own :)
18:45:56  <Samu> 169/113 =
18:46:04  <Samu> 1,4955
18:46:14  <Samu> well, same penalty for ships, 1,5
18:46:37  <Samu> aircraft is not easy to test :(
18:47:30  <Samu> how would I test them :(
18:47:40  <Samu> need ideas
18:48:30  <Samu> already tested road vehicles, trains and ships
18:48:36  <Samu> road vehicles need no penalty
18:48:50  <Samu> trains and ships will share the same penalty
18:49:05  <Samu> aircraft... i dunno, but it needs a penalty, which one I don't know how to calculate it
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18:51:04  <Samu> what is the airport type that has the least amount of running around
18:51:11  <Samu> heliport?
18:51:42  <Samu> gonna check heliport
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18:56:02  <Samu> yeah seems heliport is good
18:56:05  <Samu> let's see results
18:59:50  <Samu> 77/53
19:00:03  <Samu> 1,45
19:00:11  <Samu> hmm.. different penalty for aircraft?
19:01:17  <Samu> i may need a longer route
19:01:21  <Samu> gonna retry
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19:08:00  <Samu> 122-125 days range vs 180-181 days range
19:08:15  <Samu> this is strange
19:08:20  <frosch123> hoi webster
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19:09:07  <Samu> seems like aircraft travel faster when going south? 3 days difference
19:09:32  <Samu> but it's not practical to test aircraft, can't seem to get a good value
19:09:47  <Samu> seems the penalty is around 1,44-1,48 range
19:10:37  <frosch123> SpComb: we have a new bot, can you send me the logs somehow?
19:13:36  <Rubidium> Samu: how did you calculate that?
19:14:30  <Rubidium> because if you count from departure to arrival, you have to account for the place in the holding pattern the plane gets
19:14:59  <Rubidium> and in some cases it basically means straight to landing and in other cases it means having to make almost a whole loop
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19:16:26  <frosch123> @calc 5
19:16:26  <Webster> frosch123: 5
19:16:26  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 5
19:16:38  * andythenorth_ ponders sprite compositing
19:17:08  <andythenorth_> Frosch123 is there a mask layer? o_O
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19:17:38  <frosch123> what is that?
19:18:08  <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/vehstack_screenshot.png <- did you see that?
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19:23:57  <KenjiE20> @calc 5
19:23:57  <Webster> KenjiE20: 5
19:23:57  <DorpsGek> KenjiE20: 5
19:24:00  <KenjiE20> -.-
19:24:12  <andythenorth_> Frosch123 saw the picture ;)
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19:24:43  <supermop_> nice
19:25:08  <KenjiE20> frosch123: try an @calc, might be just cause I am admin
19:25:25  <frosch123> @calc 123
19:25:25  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 123
19:25:37  <KenjiE20> yep, cool
19:26:07  <andythenorth_> Mask layer would AND the pixels below, usually it's a 1 bit image
19:26:26  <frosch123> andythenorth_: i guess just draw another layer over it
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19:26:38  <frosch123> vehicle underlay, cargo, vehicle overlay
19:27:06  <frosch123> just like tunnel in ottd
19:27:30  <andythenorth_> Actually there's no need for mask, I am daft :p
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19:27:49  <andythenorth_> We already have blue to knock pixels out from bg
19:29:01  <frosch123> in 32bpp you can use the alpha channel to make a color gradient between 1cc and 2cc
19:29:03  <andythenorth_> Although I use masks for more than that in Hog
19:29:37  <frosch123> (will likely look stupid though :p)
19:30:01  <andythenorth_> I draw one layer for vehicle, then use mask to selectively copy some of it for overlay
19:32:36  <andythenorth_> Layered vehicles is a nice feature, but I might stick to pre-compositing :)
19:32:43  <Ethereal_Whisper> I just ordered a new contact lens. RIP my bank account balance.
19:33:12  <supermop_> one lens?
19:33:21  <frosch123> get a pair at least
19:33:26  <supermop_> how expensive is this lens
19:33:47  <supermop_> frosch123: i guess they need to save up for the other lens
19:35:16  <frosch123> andythenorth_: think about cargo recoloring
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19:37:36  <andythenorth_> Frosch123 I know :)
19:38:28  <andythenorth_> it's a neat feature
19:41:14  <supermop_> V453000: why don't v ray materials have an inherent scale?
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19:41:30  <V453000> material scale?
19:41:32  <V453000> wut
19:42:37  <supermop_> yeah why not
19:42:59  <V453000> idk it's usually defined by the UV mapping which tends to be different for each object
19:43:01  <supermop_> if i have a bricks material, why aren't the bricks always 200mm long
19:43:10  <supermop_> yeah that's bullshit
19:43:11  <V453000> well they can be in max at least I think
19:43:23  <V453000> in max you can have real world scale of maps iirc
19:43:25  <V453000> never tried though
19:43:27  <supermop_> i have to adjust mapping individually for each wall
19:43:41  <V453000> well in max you can select all walls and set 1 mapping
19:43:48  <supermop_> unless there is something im missing
19:44:05  <V453000> depends on your software
19:44:14  <V453000> for example default UVs for blender don't exist
19:44:25  <V453000> in max default UVs are 1 polygon = 1 UV space
19:44:41  <Samu> gonna try different distances now
19:44:58  <supermop_> my plaster has pixels about 1cm square on big walls, and looks like plaster on small walls
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19:47:35  <Samu> 237-240
19:47:39  <Samu> ok 3 days difference
19:47:54  <V453000> supermop_: where are you using vray? rhino?
19:48:01  <supermop_> yeah
19:48:10  <V453000> cause this shit is probably heavily dependent on your application
19:48:24  <V453000> so don't take my hints for sure
19:48:26  <supermop_> i asked IT guys for maxwell  or flamingo bc ive never used vray
19:48:38  <Samu> 122-125 days for a  500 tiles distance, 237-240 days for a 1000 tiles distance
19:48:38  <supermop_> but they put vray on instead?
19:48:45  <V453000> xd
19:48:54  <Samu> nothing strange here
19:49:27  <supermop_> so i tried to have my intern set up the materials but i'm not really happy with them
19:49:44  <Samu> Rubidium: how do i calculate the days on the holding pattern you mentioned
19:49:54  <Samu> i'd like to exclude these days
19:50:32  <supermop_> so now i'm being forced, kicking and screaming, to learn this shit
19:51:05  <V453000> xd
19:54:50  <Samu> ah i see what's different
19:55:18  <Samu> the height at which the helicopter starts it's landing
19:55:52  <Samu> sometimes the height is short, and takes less time to land
19:56:29  <Samu> but it's still strange, i think the terrain height is equal everywhere i placed the heliports, much recheck
19:57:05  <Samu> yep, height = 1
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19:57:23  <Samu> there's something i'm missing.
19:57:50  <Samu> the helicopters actually travel up/down some mountains, does that affect their current height?
19:57:58  <Samu> at the time of landing?
19:58:19  <Samu> or does it even affect their speeds?
19:58:52  <Samu> i need another test
19:58:55  <Samu> brb
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20:06:10  <NGC3982> Wow.
20:06:17  <NGC3982> No man's sky sure got shit when it opened
20:06:23  <NGC3982> But its really nice.
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20:17:09  <Samu> back
20:17:15  <Samu> i finally found the issue
20:17:55  <Samu> it is confirmed, traversing through terrain height does increase the landing time
20:18:15  <Samu> not sure if it's intended behaviour, probably is
20:18:57  <Samu> i need to be wary of terrain height now
20:20:59  <Alberth> mountains give challenges even if you fly over them :)
20:21:58  <Samu> it affects only the landing time, not the speed
20:22:50  <Samu> the helicopter height increases when going up mountains, but does not decrease when going down mountains
20:23:25  <Samu> the higher the height, the longer it takes to land
20:23:45  <Samu> so, is it intended behaviour that it doesn't lower height?
20:24:20  <Alberth> at least it's not programmed that way :)
20:24:23  <Alberth> good night
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20:24:36  <Samu> oh well :|
20:29:58  <Samu> N-S: 99 days
20:30:02  <Samu> S-N: 99 days
20:31:19  <Samu> W-E: 97 days
20:31:23  <Samu> E-W: 100 days
20:31:28  <_dp_> Wow, turns out destroying fountains and statues doesn't benefit town growth at all
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20:32:53  <Samu> NW-SE: 143 days
20:33:03  <Samu> SE-NW: 146 days
20:33:45  <ST2> Samu: it's the wind ^^
20:33:52  <ST2> _dp_: all ears ;)
20:34:18  <Samu> SW-NE: 144 days
20:34:25  <Samu> NE-SW: 146 days
20:34:54  <SpComb> !summon frosch123
20:35:21  <_dp_> ok, not with a good layout at least)
20:35:55  <_dp_> ST2, go check town emulator, I added option for removing that stuff
20:35:56  <ST2> something related with the number of buildings?
20:36:40  <Samu> penalty range between 143/100 = 1.43 to 146/97 = 1,50
20:36:49  <Samu> 1,43 to 1,50
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20:36:56  <_dp_> ST2, no, just seems that potential of it being replaced it straight up better that of getting a bigger house in its place
20:37:00  <ST2> saw it already (not with latest improvements)... and been last weekend offline - Saber made the work and posted it on our forum ;)
20:37:23  <Samu> I'm unsure if 1,50 is a good penalty for aircraft
20:37:47  <Samu> 1,50 seems to be the right value for ships and trains though
20:37:48  <_dp_> ST2, and I even replied in that thread ;) It's a new feature, added it few minutes ago
20:42:23  <Samu> woah, i can't set a speed limit for aircraft t.t
20:45:33  <debdog> they'd stall
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22:31:08  <Samu> do you know of a decent heightmap with a good balance between water, flat land and hilly land?
22:31:43  <Samu> objective is to test ais on them, no matter the transport choice
22:33:32  <Samu> i'd like to avoid lakes
22:33:38  <Samu> also rivers
22:33:51  <Samu> and narrow water passages
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22:46:40  <Samu> :(
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22:52:08  <Samu> \
22:56:12  <Samu> think i found a map i like
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23:08:01  <Samu> i'll be using NPF as pathfinder for ships
23:08:20  <Samu> ais do better with npf for some reason
23:09:21  <Samu> automatic reversing at signals, I wonder if this could help some ais
23:09:30  <Samu> will try
23:11:00  <alask0ud> brasileiro?
23:13:41  <ST2> nah, ningum dana samba por aqui xD
23:16:21  <alask0ud> asking Samu tho
23:16:41  <Samu> nop, tuga
23:16:55  <alask0ud> that
23:27:01  <Samu> will test all AIs, no vehicle type restrictions of any kind, and with their default parameters
23:27:08  <Samu> solo each
23:27:17  <Samu> for 100 years
23:27:41  <Samu> it's reasonable to do because some ais don't cope well with some restrictions
23:27:59  <Samu> map size reduced to 512x512 though
23:28:13  <Samu> let me count the number of ais
23:29:38  <Samu> 38, ugh...
23:29:41  <Samu> oh well
23:29:59  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
23:30:41  <Samu> and this time, i'm password protecting the servers
23:31:42  <Samu> or hmm... screw the firewall settings or something like that
23:32:10  <Samu> is it possible to not advertise a dedicated server?
23:33:39  <Samu> server_advertise = false, let's see if this works
23:43:28  <Samu> 37? i must have missed some
23:43:47  <Samu> ah, right, 37, the other is a folder
23:45:18  <Samu> guys, pick 8 random numbers from 1 to 37, i don't feel like doing this alphabetically
23:47:51  <Samu> dead chat
23:49:49  *** supermop_ has quit IRC
23:54:47  <Supercheese> @rand(37)
23:54:59  <Supercheese> @rand 37
23:55:01  <Supercheese> eh
23:55:19  <Samu> ^_^
23:55:29  <Supercheese> @calc rand 37
23:55:29  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
23:55:32  <Supercheese> bleh
23:55:40  <Supercheese> I tried
23:55:44  <ST2> hehe
23:56:01  <Supercheese> "The syntax is Python syntax" the bot says
23:56:08  * Supercheese does not know Python syntax
23:56:13  <ST2> if it's like rand(3) that gives 90% of times 2
23:56:21  <ST2> I think it's bribed xD

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