Log for #openttd on 11th September 2016:
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00:00:24  <Samu> i tried admiralai, which is the aircraft winner with HUGE profits
00:00:52  <Samu> forced dummyai into his company, let the game run for 2 years
00:01:05  <Samu> I am honestly impressed
00:04:29  <Samu> darn imgur doesn't accept copy paste anymore
00:05:52  <goodger> Samu: try spectacle
00:06:32  <Samu> what's the site?
00:07:52  <goodger> uhhhh....
00:08:17  <Samu>
00:09:06  <Samu> i dont get spectacle, i need to install?
00:09:15  <goodger> mr sniffle looks like a badass
00:09:27  <goodger> oh windows
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00:10:27  <Samu> imgur used to allow pasting images directly from the clipboard, but seems bugged since the big update for windows 10
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00:10:57  <Samu> now i got to save the image on paint, browse upload it
00:11:29  <Samu> or give a gigantic link from onedrive
00:11:34  <_dp_> Samu, I just tested it and my formula is correct, if it's not for you then fix your tests :p
00:11:54  <Samu> where is your patch, must try it
00:12:16  <_dp_> Samu, return 2 * minu(dx, dy) + 3 * Delta(dx, dy) / 2;
00:12:37  <_dp_> you know where to put it)
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00:13:08  <Samu> ok let me see that one
00:14:01  <Samu> ugh, must copy past getmanhatandistance for that one
00:14:13  <Samu> or distancemanhatan, whatever... brb
00:15:01  <Samu> uint DistanceManhattan_dp_(TileIndex t0, TileIndex t1) :)
00:17:21  <Samu> building
00:19:24  <Samu> ok running admiralai savegame for 2 years
00:20:05  <Samu> uh, profits are increasing
00:20:44  <Samu> let me confirm i didn't fail somewhere
00:21:56  <Samu> does this look alright?
00:22:48  <_dp_> yep
00:22:55  <Samu> ah, i see a problem, brb editign
00:24:19  <Samu> - fixed, keks
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00:25:44  <_dp_> you changed nothing
00:26:23  <ST2> DistanceManhattan gets equal to DistanceSquare
00:26:57  <ST2> useless to have 2 uint's there
00:27:36  <ST2> oh wait: what's the original?
00:27:38  <ST2> xD
00:28:46  <Samu> sec
00:28:50  <_dp_> ST2, good morning :p
00:29:08  <ST2> hey _dp_ :)
00:29:18  <Samu>  - profit went up
00:29:23  <ST2> it's weird... I'll call you dP ;)
00:30:13  <_dp_> ST2, yeah, some bastard aleready took my nickname here :(
00:31:01  <_dp_> Samu, yeah, it increases profits for straight lines making them equal to diagonals
00:31:17  <Samu> ah, you do the reverse of what i do
00:31:23  <_dp_> Samu, so overall icome is expected to rise unless they are all perfectly diagonal
00:31:53  <Samu> i reduce profits for diagonals
00:32:30  <ST2> well, I'll leave you both on that discussion ^^
00:32:50  <ST2> good luck on both attempts :)
00:33:07  <Samu> - my patch
00:33:18  <ST2> I place my bets on dP :P
00:33:25  <_dp_> Samu, reducing is bad, it will screw up 5 years of quest history on your servers if it ever makes to trunk
00:34:01  <_dp_> I place mine on nothing changing xD
00:34:22  <ST2> that's a safe bet... for sure ^^
00:34:23  <Samu> quest history? what's that?
00:34:35  <ST2> but if anything changed... bets done :P
00:34:58  <_dp_> Samu,
00:35:19  <_dp_> Samu, and all highscores too
00:35:58  <Samu> oh... that kind of stuff
00:36:21  <ST2> basically it's something recording what servers gives - when achieving it... it's done :)
00:37:30  <ST2> dP (Citymania) have it changed on server side - so it has some measurements that a vanilla server can't give
00:37:31  <_dp_> Some quests will become much harder if not impossible, like this one
00:38:55  <_dp_> ST2, well, most of them is just another fancy way to require a lot of money :)
00:39:17  <ST2> I know ^^
00:39:49  <ST2> most of the issues we have is because admin port only gives info quarterly
00:40:17  <ST2> someone already suggested change that to monthly, some time ago
00:40:37  <ST2> was crushed by devs, sadly
00:41:26  <_dp_> ST2, well, it's your decision not to patch server :p
00:41:42  <ST2> true ^^
00:42:32  <Samu> a nerf to aircraft is always welcome, except that excessive infrastructure maintenance thing
00:43:31  <Samu> it works bad on small maps
00:43:52  <ST2> infrastructure maintenance is based now on number of tiles on stations (I think)
00:44:11  <ST2> when you build an airport, it's like a 7x7 rail station
00:44:18  <ST2> both sides
00:44:29  <_dp_> Samu, we have big aircrafts removed, and small ones are ok
00:44:33  <Samu> oh, really? nice, i got to try enabling it
00:44:38  <ST2> with the point that you dnt need tracks between
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01:15:40  <Samu> I'm bored -
01:16:11  <Samu> enabled infrastructure maintenance and compared
01:19:21  <Samu> it's funny what the income graphs , delivered cargo show on the different versions
01:19:35  <Samu> speed penalty shows less cargo delivered
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01:20:23  <Samu> distance boost, that patch of _dp_, shows income increased, but profit decreased
01:21:57  <sim-al2> >1279 airports
01:22:00  <sim-al2> how
01:22:22  <sim-al2> Oh, AdmiralAI
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01:26:59  <Samu> i'm off to bed
01:27:08  <Samu> out of these 3 patches
01:28:29  <Samu> the only I consider fair is that of speed penalty, but it looks really awkward with the sudden vehicle speed decreases/increases when changing direction
01:28:46  <Samu> wow im really sleepy
01:29:35  <Samu> but it's fair because it leaves road vehicles unaffected
01:29:54  <Samu> and the others don't
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07:01:21  <Alberth> moin
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07:04:52  <andythenorth> o/
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07:18:40  <Alberth> o/
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07:38:44  <Alberth> bbl
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08:26:15  <andythenorth> tramz
08:27:21  <andythenorth> what are pax trams for?
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09:08:39  <Wolf01> o/
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09:21:32  <Wolf01> o/
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09:42:27  <andythenorth> why are pax trams?
09:47:20  <Wolf01> Dunno
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10:21:05  <Wolf01> o/
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10:28:58  <Alberth> o/
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10:40:14  <Samu> hi
10:41:40  <Samu> - question about this bug, are there objects that could be placed on coastal tiles with 1 corner raised?
10:42:23  <Samu> if so, then the patch I posted there isn't good :(
10:42:51  <Samu> it won't be checking if the tile is clear
10:44:40  <Samu> have to think of a workaround
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10:46:46  <Wolf01> Quak
10:47:18  <Alberth> quak
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10:49:13  <frosch123> hoi
10:50:56  <Samu> how to deal with half water, half land tiles?
10:52:37  <Samu> how to check if the tile is clear on the half land part of it, but not on the water part?
10:52:40  <Samu> ret = DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, flags, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR);
10:52:45  <Samu> this one is bad
10:58:39  <Samu> :( sleepy chat
11:00:41  <Samu> - lines 136-142 is where I've made the edits
11:00:41  <Alberth> for me, I have no idea what all the cases are with such a tile, so I can't answer your questions
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11:01:46  <Alberth> and at least you change more than you promise, at first sight
11:03:24  <Samu> is there a No water flag? sec let me find
11:06:24  <Samu> yes
11:07:10  <Samu> well, time to test
11:08:50  <Samu> there is  DC_NO_WATER and CMD_NO_WATER
11:12:00  <Samu> without the patch, "can't build railway track here ... ship in the way."
11:12:30  <Samu> this error comes up because of ret = DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, flags, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR);
11:14:54  <Samu> ret = DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, flags & DC_NO_WATER, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR); = ship in the way error
11:15:42  <Samu> didn't work :(
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11:16:27  <Alberth> o/
11:17:57  <Alberth> Samu: well, that makes sense, clearing a water tile means you remove the sea from it, can't have a ship on it then
11:18:21  <Alberth> s/sea/water/
11:18:38  <Samu> DC_WATER then?
11:18:40  <Wolf01> Meh, GitHub project with external dependencies, SVN can't get them
11:18:43  <Samu> i think it doesn't exist
11:18:56  <andythenorth> are trams precursors to buses? (history lesson)
11:19:03  <Wolf01> And Git for Windows can't checkout the project "not a valid Git repository"
11:19:07  <andythenorth> or are trams high-capacity pax transport for cities?
11:21:19  <Samu> so now i'm at ClearTile_Water, at water_cmd.cpp
11:21:43  <Samu> 			/* Make sure no vehicle is on the tile */ 			CommandCost ret = EnsureNoVehicleOnGround(tile);
11:21:57  <Samu> this brings up the error ship in the way t.t
11:22:58  <Samu> case WATER_TILE_COAST:
11:23:01  <Samu> it's a coast tile
11:27:31  <Wolf01> What's the right command to make a link? ln -T /long/path/i/don_t/want/to/write/ ?
11:28:30  <Wolf01> Also I don't want to delete the linked folder if I delete the link
11:28:45  <Wolf01> (already happened)
11:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say trams came earlier than busses
11:30:40  <andythenorth> that’s currently how Road Hog models it
11:30:47  <andythenorth> but it causes problems with design
11:31:16  <andythenorth> the constraints for trams push them to have relatively high capacity
11:31:24  <andythenorth> which makes them ineffective for most towns
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11:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you can't justify making the early trams a full tile, then don't...
11:34:55  <andythenorth> I could
11:35:08  <andythenorth> but they’d have capacity of 100 or more
11:35:11  <andythenorth> which might be fine
11:35:35  <andythenorth> currently buses start at 1900 or so, I’m considering adding older versions
11:35:48  <andythenorth> steam buses are valid historically, and also gameplay > realism
11:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd vote for horse carriages
11:39:28  <andythenorth> can’t use drive-in stops :P
11:39:37  <andythenorth> eh, I could just not articulate them
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11:55:44  <Samu> can't make it work
11:57:19  <Samu> if (ret.Failed() && ret.GetErrorMessage() == STR_ERROR_SHIP_IN_THE_WAY) "change it to Succeeded()"
11:57:28  <Samu> how do i do this
11:57:36  <Samu> change a fail into a success?
11:59:57  <Wolf01> By looking why is ret.Failed()
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12:08:25  <Samu> it failed because there is a ship in the way, but i'm building a rail on the land part
12:08:45  <Samu> doesn't make sense to fail
12:11:33  <Samu>
12:11:42  <Samu> oops
12:12:15  <Samu>
12:12:19  <Samu> better link
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12:13:06  <Samu> actually, that's a screenshot with my fix, grrr
12:13:20  <Samu> but i suspect my fix has issues, so i'm trying an alternative
12:13:29  <Samu> looking for an alternative
12:14:26  <andythenorth> 18/8 mail and pax trams offers quite nice visuals
12:14:30  <andythenorth> 3 x 6/8 units
12:14:33  <andythenorth> but...
12:14:39  <andythenorth> all the freight trams are 16/8
12:16:08  <Samu> - here's the problem in 1.6.1
12:16:51  <Samu> coincidence, the tool turns red when i press Ctrl-S to take a screenshot, imagine it as red
12:16:57  <Samu> as white*
12:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> does not sound like a problem
12:21:00  * andythenorth experiments with tram length and station blocking again
12:21:13  <andythenorth> I suspect it’s quite dependent on station layout
12:23:32  <andythenorth> 12/8 leaves some empty loading bays, and then the vehicles start tunneling
12:37:02  <andythenorth> Alberth: planning Maglev Renewal grf? o_O
12:37:55  <Alberth> nah, just trying some more improvements, scarily, it might involve pixels :p
12:38:20  <Alberth> ie further brighten the tracks, so you can see where they go
12:38:47  <Alberth> or darken the non-tracks, obviously :)
12:39:22  <Alberth> for some reason people are scared to paint them non-gray :p
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12:40:55  <Samu_> @logs
12:40:55  <DorpsGek> Samu_:
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12:41:34  <Alberth> going offline to read the logs :p
12:43:29  <Samu_> i get disconnected
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12:47:56  <Samu_> :(
12:49:16  <andythenorth> bbl
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13:46:17  <Samu_> cleartile_water needs a workaround
13:53:05  <Samu_> there is no real way to clear half of a tile, is it?
13:53:13  <Samu_> it's either all of it, or nothing
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13:58:52  <andythenorth>
13:58:56  <andythenorth> visually, 2 units or 3?
13:59:03  <andythenorth> obviously has gameplay implications
13:59:57  <Wolf01> We need to rework roadstops
14:00:33  <Wolf01> After NRT we could give them a look
14:01:09  <andythenorth> what look? :)
14:01:32  <Wolf01> A look like 1 vehicle per lane doesn't matter the length?
14:01:51  <Alberth> 2 looks nicer?
14:02:05  <andythenorth> Wolf01: would mean moving the loading bays?
14:02:12  <Wolf01> Sort of
14:02:25  <andythenorth> Alberth: I think 2 is nicer, but the behaviour in roadstops…leaves gaps
14:02:37  <andythenorth> looks messy :P
14:02:44  <Alberth> :)
14:03:30  <Wolf01> After NRT we should give some more life to roads
14:03:54  <andythenorth> we need that nml patch :P
14:04:42  <Wolf01> Rails have enough control with signals and layout, while roads have just the oneway
14:05:04  <Wolf01> Could I help with something non nml, non graphic?
14:07:02  <andythenorth> can you babysit and put away the shopping? o_O
14:07:19  <Wolf01> I'm a bit too far away
14:07:42  <andythenorth> can you persuade someone else to do the nml patch?
14:07:50  <Wolf01> Maybe
14:07:56  <andythenorth> it doesn’t require much design afaict
14:08:17  <andythenorth> just copy most of railtypes, but on feature ID 0x13
14:08:25  <andythenorth> drop the callback handlers
14:08:39  <andythenorth> maybe check if the tests need updated
14:09:11  <Samu_> ojects with water
14:09:16  <Wolf01> Shouldn't we define the features first?
14:09:39  <andythenorth> it’s what frosch said before, just get something compiling a roadtype grf
14:10:00  <andythenorth> frosch pretty much defined a spec last week or so in irc (logs?)
14:10:07  <Wolf01> Yup
14:10:26  <Wolf01> But I meant "define exactly what NRT will support"
14:10:53  <andythenorth> we need some collaborative editing tool
14:11:07  <Samu_> do you know of any newgrf with items than can be placed on coast tiles with 1 corner raised?
14:11:11  <Samu_> as objects
14:11:26  <andythenorth> like
14:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Rails have enough control with signals and layout, while roads have just the oneway <-- i can only think of distributing traffic over multiple lanes
14:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> what else would you need?
14:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there's this old "traffic light" patch, which i never quite understood what it's useful for
14:13:21  <Wolf01> Yes, I remember that, we don't have "traffic", but I would like animated tiles with people on pavements
14:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't see how that would work, the people would need to traverse multiple tiles
14:14:05  <FLHerne> Samu_: Lighthouse set
14:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to model the people (town road AI style)
14:14:24  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "just" animating a tile
14:14:37  <Wolf01> Right
14:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you wouldn't have the map space for animation state anyway
14:15:00  <Wolf01> Also, different kinds of road stations (eg. 2x2, 2x3, 1x4), hardcoded
14:15:14  <FLHerne> Samu_: Also all the OpenGFX+ Landscape objects, VAST objects, probably a lot of other things
14:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> *cough* state machines *cough*
14:15:34  <andythenorth> I used to think that variety in road stop graphics might be wanted
14:15:36  <andythenorth> not sure now
14:16:12  <Wolf01> You'll need state machines even for roundabouts or highway ramps
14:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, "traffic objects" i called those once
14:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> non-station things with state machines
14:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause> locks, drawbridges, onramps, ...
14:17:19  <andythenorth> roundabouts would actually be interesting
14:17:23  <Wolf01> Isn't really time to do state machines?
14:17:26  <andythenorth> locks also, are currently crap
14:17:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, feel free to do state machines :p
14:18:06  <Wolf01> Aren't they just move {23, 53, 1, 554, 22, 245, 6...} on a grf?
14:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just say chances of success are fairly low
14:18:35  <Samu_> alright, thx
14:18:38  <Wolf01> The problem is to develop a proper editing tool
14:19:09  <andythenorth> where are the roadstops?
14:19:13  <andythenorth> are they spaced 8/8 ?
14:19:17  <andythenorth> [drive through]
14:20:05  <Wolf01> roadveh_movement.h?
14:20:59  <Wolf01> 1089
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14:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: it's not just "move along these coordinates", but also "wait here if sections A and B are occupied"
14:23:30  <andythenorth> and prevent deadlocks
14:24:39  <andythenorth> Wolf01: stick to NRT? :D
14:24:43  <andythenorth> or we could fix rivers :P
14:25:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the road stops are continuous. the vehicle will move forward until it is stopped, an there it loads
14:25:16  <Wolf01> I'll prefer NRT, for rivers I would like far more stuff than just a fix
14:25:44  <NGC3982> So, i'm trying to split up cargo between two stations
14:25:47  <andythenorth> how long is a stop?
14:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole tile, i think
14:26:25  <andythenorth> there are 2 per tile, per direction?
14:26:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no, if you have short vehicles, more than 2 can stop
14:26:50  <andythenorth> hmm
14:27:00  <NGC3982> <- Sorry for the language, but that order say "full load at station one, go to station #2, when cargo is <50%, go to station #3".
14:27:01  <andythenorth> trying to understand this tunnelling I’m seeing with 12/8 trams
14:27:12  <NGC3982> This does not work, and i can't see what i'm doing wrong.
14:27:13  <Wolf01> roadveh_cmd.cpp, 1409
14:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: which "this" is not working?
14:28:38  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: The train leaves all the cargo at station #1.
14:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:28:57  <Eddi|zuHause> because the conditional order is only evaluated AFTER unloading
14:29:07  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
14:29:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so it can only apply to something that is left in the vehicle because it wasn't accepted
14:29:40  <NGC3982> So, splitting the cargo from the same train between two stations is therefor not possible?
14:29:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot stop unloading halfway through
14:29:55  <NGC3982> Ok.
14:30:42  * NGC3982 settles with two trains.
14:30:50  <Wolf01> I usually do Load A, Go B, Load A, Go C, back from begin
14:31:19  <Wolf01> 2 trains also do it
14:37:36  <Samu_> alright, tiles of type objects won't bug out
14:37:44  <Samu_> it clears the object
14:37:50  <Samu_> then places the rail
14:38:14  <Samu_> but the real question is
14:38:37  <Samu_> are there objects that have track bits?
14:38:41  <Samu_> water track bits
14:39:13  <Samu_> or even if they re-use the existant track bits?
14:40:04  <Samu_> I am wondering if ships could walk on tiles of type OBJECT
14:40:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you use a lot of magic water tiles, coastal industries rarely get built
14:40:16  <andythenorth> it’s not a valid way to detect small closed lakes
14:40:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe, but i still think you're just not doing it right
14:40:57  <Alberth> sounds mostly like an engine primitive tbh
14:41:28  <Alberth> not sure if the user should have influence on it
14:41:35  <Eddi|zuHause> like, you don't need a 180° free space, but maybe two layouts which check 90° left or 90° right
14:41:55  <Alberth> but "does water has at least x tiles" sounds like something that could work
14:42:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would you detect that the water body is closed?
14:43:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't
14:43:09  <andythenorth> I am happy to try something
14:43:14  <andythenorth> the issue looks silly
14:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but you maybe avoid thee most silly dead end cases
14:45:15  <Samu_> is that to me? *confused
14:45:16  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: propose layouts with ascii art?
14:45:28  <Samu_> Alberth: ?
14:45:29  <andythenorth> I’ll test them (it’s laborious, but eh)
14:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not really in the mood for that
14:45:41  <andythenorth> eh ok
14:45:53  <Alberth> Samu_:  no, it wasn't for you
14:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you can produce ascii-art of the existing layout, i might some day get around to modifying them
14:47:20  <Samu_> static TrackStatus GetTileTrackStatus_Object(TileIndex tile, TransportType mode, uint sub_mode, DiagDirection side) { 	return 0; }
14:47:34  <Samu_> nice, that was the answer I was looking for
14:47:41  <Samu_> no tracks on object tiles
14:48:14  <Samu_> that means my patch is *ahem* bug free
14:48:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you could just supply python directly :P
14:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: '255' is the magic water tile?
15:01:12  <Samu_> 255 is the same as 0xFF
15:01:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
15:01:29  <Samu_> it ensures that the tile is water
15:01:39  <andythenorth> if it’s simply a matter of having 16 layouts or so....fine
15:01:50  <andythenorth> but I miss how that will find the lake case :)
15:01:52  <Samu_> i remember working with the oil rig layout
15:01:56  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Thanks :)
15:02:37  <Samu_> it can also be canals
15:02:39  <Samu_> or rivers
15:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it can't find "lakes" (as in bodies of water not connected to the map edge), but it could make sure the "lake" is somewhat big enough to plausibly explain the presence of this industry
15:04:30  <V453000> yo homanz
15:04:39  <andythenorth> also frogs
15:04:42  <andythenorth> and cats
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15:06:58  <Samu_> hi
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15:10:59  * andythenorth wonders about writing a min. contiguous water tiles variable for newgrf tile check
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15:14:59  <andythenorth> webster gone away?
15:15:05  <andythenorth> getting 500s
15:15:35  <Samu_> 15:14:59  <andythenorth> webster gone away? Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk
15:15:40  <Samu_> nop
15:17:53  <Samu_> i got a feature request
15:18:11  <Samu_> - plz plz
15:19:10  <andythenorth> +1 (if the patch is sound)
15:19:23  * andythenorth buys land to stop towns doing that
15:20:00  <Samu_> this alone avoids major cpu usage on ships that would be otherwise stuck, and lost
15:20:39  <andythenorth> can anyone see the logs for 5th Sept?
15:21:18  <Samu_> 5th september does not want to open
15:21:48  <Samu_> weird
15:22:00  <Samu_> 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 all can open
15:22:01  <Samu_> 5 cant
15:23:41  <Samu_> http 500
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15:37:43  <Alberth> internal server error, call webster maintenance :)
15:40:29  <Wolf01> Funny when the maintenance guy get the error and had to call himself, and himself doesn't have a clue too :P
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15:48:42  <Alberth> :)
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16:02:38  <Samu_> building canals should be cheaper without the need of a newgrf :(
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16:10:02  <Samu_> woah black bar spectator bug is still there, i reported it 1 year ago
16:10:27  <Samu_>
16:10:30  <Samu_> 1 year ago
16:10:34  <Samu_> look at date
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16:21:35  <andythenorth> hmm
16:21:45  <andythenorth> seems 9/8 vehicles fill stops without gaps
16:22:08  <andythenorth> that’s not a convenient length for drawing :P
16:24:33  <andythenorth> 10/8 seems to pack stations ok
16:28:53  <andythenorth> as does 14/8
16:29:03  <andythenorth> dunno why 12/8 doesn't
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16:46:30  <andythenorth> maybe I should just make one of those realism sets
16:46:37  <andythenorth> with a bazillion trams :P
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16:59:07  <supermop_> think i inhaled some cement last night
16:59:12  <supermop_> feel like shit
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17:01:12  <Alberth> andy, that needs lots of pixels
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17:06:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ll use PIL
17:06:45  <Alberth> fair enough :)
17:07:35  <andythenorth> random pixels
17:07:39  <supermop_> procedurally generated tram
17:07:58  <supermop_> no two cities trams are alike
17:07:59  <andythenorth> why do the metro trains in Iron Horse increase pax capacity so much per generation?
17:08:10  <andythenorth> they’re same vehicle length every time
17:08:24  <andythenorth> 240 -> 320 -> 400
17:08:35  <supermop_> andythenorth: have you seen a metro train from 100 years ago vs today?
17:09:02  <supermop_> they used to have nice caned seats facing each other, and a conductor in every car
17:09:56  <andythenorth> oh so it’s a legit increase?
17:10:06  <andythenorth> why don’t the mail units increase? :P
17:10:09  <andythenorth> who makes this stuff?
17:10:51  <supermop_> also most town sets are going to produce more pasengers in the 70s than the 30s, and increasing max speed alone will be worthless on a dense metro line
17:12:02  <andythenorth> true
17:12:15  <andythenorth> trying to find a scheme for tram generations
17:12:25  <supermop_> i see IH metro as more of a life preserver than gameplay feature
17:12:38  <andythenorth> are trams solving same problem as IH metro?
17:12:40  <andythenorth> or something else?
17:12:47  <andythenorth> [freight trams are fine]
17:12:51  <andythenorth> just need to sort out pax + mail
17:13:12  <supermop_> trams are distributive/feeder i think
17:13:40  <supermop_> better for branching out at fringes of cities
17:14:24  <supermop_> mail trams and mail metros don't have a widespread rl prototype, so they can be whatever you want
17:15:00  <supermop_> mail tube was what, like 1ft gauge?
17:15:12  <supermop_> thats more of a pipe than a train
17:16:44  <andythenorth> so what’s the capacity of a pax tram?
17:16:51  * andythenorth needs to reduce capacity of buses
17:16:54  <supermop_> ih metro is for when your trunk line runs through a conurbation and you cant keep up with sheer numbers created by .se houses, so you run a parallel metro track
17:17:01  <andythenorth> +1
17:17:15  <Alberth> finally a legit use of PIPE newgrf :)
17:17:56  <supermop_> i mean ive been on a w class with 60 or so people
17:18:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: :P
17:18:06  <andythenorth> I like PIPE :P
17:18:20  <andythenorth> use it in every game
17:18:22  <Alberth> never used it, must try it some time
17:18:32  <Alberth> for transporting what?
17:18:34  <andythenorth> oil
17:18:35  <supermop_> i use your shuttle and pumping station method andythenorth
17:18:37  <andythenorth> yeah
17:18:39  <andythenorth> it’s unusual
17:18:45  <andythenorth> and works
17:18:46  <supermop_> rather than return pipe
17:19:00  <supermop_> looks ok with the right station tiles
17:19:58  <Alberth> hmm, feeders from nearby industry would be possible with PIPE
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17:20:09  <supermop_> then dont need signals so can bury pipe in tunnels
17:20:21  <andythenorth> Alberth:
17:20:29  <andythenorth> usually feeders yes
17:21:04  <supermop_> andythenorth: would benefit from a non-default depot
17:23:53  <andythenorth> agreed
17:24:20  <andythenorth> I thought of forking the grf
17:24:27  <andythenorth> just one pump per generation
17:24:39  <Alberth> I now often have these kind of lines between stations
17:24:40  <supermop_> yeah i dont need the selection
17:25:29  <supermop_> except if you are trying to force the hand of cdist, and give one branch explicitly 1/3 the capacity of the other
17:25:35  <supermop_> works ok
17:26:35  <supermop_> use a 75k pump and a 25k pump and set them both to run once every x days
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17:28:50  <supermop_> had a wasteland game with 3 towns in a line fed by one water source, 75, transfer at 1st town to a 50, transfer at 2nd to  a 25
17:29:04  <supermop_> each town got about 25kL
17:29:20  <Alberth> nice
17:30:01  <supermop_> easier to set up in reverse to the onward capacity is already established when first water gets delivered
17:30:35  <andythenorth> it’s a myth that cdist measures capacity ;)
17:30:43  <andythenorth> unless I have made a myth that it’s a myth
17:31:50  <andythenorth> nope, I have it on record from fonso
17:31:56  <supermop_> ooh
17:32:05  <andythenorth> link capacity plays no role in demand calculation
17:32:13  <supermop_> well i somehow got water going all the way to the end
17:32:13  <andythenorth> only in assigning where there are multiple valid links
17:32:33  <Alberth> makes sense
17:32:42  * andythenorth was going to update the cdist wiki, there are multiple cdist myths
17:32:49  <andythenorth> never got round to that :)
17:33:00  <Alberth> it'll get reverted anyway :p
17:33:05  <andythenorth> I have a long transcript from April 2016 about it :)
17:33:09  <supermop_> keep it mysterious
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17:49:47  <andythenorth> hmm
17:49:54  <andythenorth> way too much progression on buses
17:50:10  <andythenorth> 30 -> 50 -> 70 -> 90
17:52:24  <andythenorth> trams are 80 -> 120 -> 160 -> 200 -> 240
17:52:37  <andythenorth> also much too much
18:03:01  <Samu_> svn://
18:03:32  <Samu_> oops, nevermind
18:08:35  <andythenorth> Wolf01: work on NRT nml is blocked by lack of logs for 5th of September :) :P
18:11:43  <Wolf01> I have logs of that day
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18:16:05  <Wolf01> I can't paste as text ò_O
18:17:00  <Wolf01> pasted as brainfuck
18:18:06  <Wolf01> I have a blank of 6 minutes at 22:22, the useful things might be there
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18:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> something is weird :/ it messed up sound during boot, but i can't reboot right now
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18:49:30  <Wolf01> andythenorth, found what you needed?
18:51:49  <argoneus_> good evening train friends
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18:53:27  <andythenorth> Wolf01: think so
19:05:39  <Samu_> currently looking at my work last year, but i can't remember why I was focusing on permanent rivers
19:06:23  <andythenorth> because disappearing rivers are a bit weird?
19:06:32  <andythenorth> they should be immovables or something
19:08:09  <Samu_> they are not demolishable
19:08:26  <Samu_> maybe I had a really good reason at the time, now i can't remember
19:08:35  <Wolf01> I think rivers should have at least 2 fixed points, the spring and the mouth, in the middle you can change everything you want (width, shape...) provided the spring and the mouth are connected
19:09:07  <andythenorth> seems reasonable
19:09:17  <Wolf01> So nobody stops you from cutting a meander with a canal and blow up the old river
19:09:25  <Wolf01> But then you can't remove the canal
19:09:45  <Wolf01> And aqueducts don't count as river
19:11:41  <Samu_> if rivers are permanent, then why did i bother with the canal on river?
19:12:12  <Samu_> I should of just forbid canals being built on rivers
19:12:22  <Samu_> since they're permanent.. what's the point
19:12:40  <Wolf01> Having a straight path?
19:14:28  <Samu_> demolishing a canal built on a river, restores the river
19:14:43  <Wolf01> And that is good
19:14:45  <Samu_> demolishing the river... does nothing, not even a price, river stays
19:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "provided the spring and the mouth are connected" <-- i agree with that, but it needs the added condition that the connection only goes flat or down
19:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> also, provide a setting like for blowing up town roads
19:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and change the town roads algorithm to a similar "needs an alternate connection" algorithm
19:17:21  <Wolf01> Yup
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19:18:25  <Wolf01> Today I also found that Breadth First algorithm is faster than A*
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19:34:00  <Samu_> i'm not sure if i totally like the idea of permanent rivers, unless the river generation algorithm is changed somewhat
19:34:05  <Samu_> or locks
19:34:24  <andythenorth> locks need changed
19:34:27  <andythenorth> locks are broken
19:34:50  <Wolf01> +1
19:34:56  <Samu_> ok tell me what needs to be changed about locks
19:35:18  <Wolf01> State Machine
19:35:40  <Samu_> what?
19:35:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Today I also found that Breadth First algorithm is faster than A* <-- depends on what you search and how it is embedded
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19:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> A* might need fewer steps, but does more things in each step
19:38:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm a bit fuzzy on what exactly A* does, though
19:38:43  <Samu_> multi-threaded A* finding - does it exist?
19:39:44  <Wolf01> Is not A* which needs to be multithread, your application should launch a search on every thread
19:40:50  <Samu_> yeah, that
19:45:01  <andythenorth> locks are too big
19:45:11  <andythenorth> they should be 2 tiles not 3, or even 1
19:45:26  <Wolf01> And if you have 3-tile ships?
19:45:33  <andythenorth> you’ve done it wrong
19:45:36  <andythenorth> depots are 2 tiles only
19:45:47  <andythenorth> 3 tile ships aren’t valid
19:46:12  <Wolf01> Also train depots are 1-tile, but nobody stops you from having a 64-tile long train
19:46:52  <andythenorth> fair point
19:47:00  <andythenorth> 3 tile ships visually stick out of the ship depot though
19:47:12  <Samu_> there's 3 tile ships? really?
19:47:15  <Wolf01> No problem, I use open depots grf for ships
19:47:35  <Samu_> and what the heck is a 3 tile ship?
19:47:38  <Wolf01> Ship just automagically popups when started
19:48:05  <andythenorth> ha
19:48:55  <Wolf01> The sailing ship will glitch out badly if I don't ;)
19:49:25  <Wolf01> Also, bridges should be changed to define a heigth for what could pass below them
19:49:25  <Samu_> can i see a 3 tile ship? i thought they were 2 tiles
19:49:58  <Samu_> shouldn't that be a ship property
19:50:25  <Wolf01> Don't squid has some very large ships?
19:50:46  <Samu_> let me look, brb
19:51:25  <Samu_> is it FISH 2?
19:51:48  <Wolf01> Could be
19:53:28  <Samu_> holy crap, that is retardedly large
19:54:11  <Samu_> about ship height
19:54:22  <Samu_> it would require higher depots too
19:54:47  <Wolf01> Not only ship height, if one day andythenorth will draw a 5 stories tram, it shouldn't be allowed under a low bridge
19:59:06  <Samu_> interesting ships
19:59:23  <Samu_> but they're still only on 1 track piece, not 2
20:00:13  <andythenorth> they’re too big :)
20:00:49  * andythenorth must make improvements
20:01:47  <Samu_> - i mean this
20:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause> once you have proper state machines, you can make locks as small or big as you like
20:02:10  <Samu_> what's a state machines? sorry I dont know
20:02:41  <Samu_> the ship is BIG, but it's still only using 1 track, on that water tile
20:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and ship dimensions must be dealt with separately, they will inevitably glitch all over the place, because their bounding box is too big
20:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you could separate it into smaller bounding boxes
20:03:11  <andythenorth> Samu_: yes, ships have no specific concept of length
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20:36:37  <andythenorth> bed
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22:39:45  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:35:57  <Samu_> once i place a buoy on water, i have to move mouse cursor around for it to be drawn
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23:37:52  <Samu_> happens more often at zoom x2 and x4
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23:44:40  <Samu_>
23:44:53  <Samu_> why don't you fix bugs?
23:45:02  <Samu_> at least those minor ones
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