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Log for #openttd on 1st October 2016:
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00:06:42  <Fujk> anyone know how to use Modular Locomotive sheds? I can't find anything placeable in game
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07:18:48  <andythenorth> o/
07:20:30  <Alberth> o/
07:21:18  <andythenorth> is tram https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db1Vlvm9-kw
07:23:15  <Alberth> it seems a bit strange to me, trams transporting freight, I am so used to trams for pax only :)
07:24:57  <andythenorth> it’s hardly common :)
07:25:33  <andythenorth> ha this one is good http://www.tramz.com/br/pj/pj15.jpg
07:28:10  <Alberth> /me likes
07:28:28  <Alberth> trams are cheaper to run than regular trains, I guess
07:31:59  <andythenorth> they don’t need signals and so on
07:32:08  <andythenorth> so cheaper total cost of operation
07:33:31  <andythenorth> in America the street railways were sometimes the connection between railroad and factory
07:33:49  <andythenorth> normal wagons, hauled by tram engines for some last miles
07:34:56  * andythenorth train nerd today
07:35:16  <Alberth> IH day :)
07:36:27  * andythenorth -> kids football
07:36:29  <andythenorth> bbl
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08:04:22  <Wolf01> Moin
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08:17:50  <Alberth> hihi
08:27:06  <Flygon> Alberth: Visit Melbourne, pre-80s :)
08:27:17  <Flygon> We use to have freight trams dedicated to transporting canines
08:27:18  <Flygon> Seriously.
08:27:36  <Flygon> Though, rather than Tram loading gauge locomotives
08:27:49  <Flygon> We ran single unit cars
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08:29:36  <Alberth> ok
08:29:48  <Alberth> /me steps in the time-travel machine
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08:36:51  <Rubidium> Alberth: you could go for a weekend to Melbourne; leave Friday around 21:30, return monday around 06:30. Then you got from 07:00 till 13:00 on Sunday in Melbourne ;)
08:38:07  <Alberth> ha :)
08:38:30  <Alberth> not exactly pre-80s, unless Flygon means 2080 :)
08:38:44  <Flygon> Well...
08:38:54  <Rubidium> They must have a museum with pre-80s vehicles
08:38:55  <Flygon> We basically stopped running Freight Trams by the early 90s
08:42:12  <Rubidium> but for the ultimate weekend trip... go to Auckland. You need to leave on Friday at 17:30 and arrive on Monday around 10:00... but you will have travelled quite a large number of longitudes and latitudes
08:42:40  <Rubidium> (probably the most you can manage in one weekend when departing from Amsterdam)
08:46:37  <Rubidium> Amsterdam -> China (4h transfer) -> Auckland (13h) -> San Francisco (3.5h transfer) -> Amsterdam
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09:11:22  <Wolf01> o/
09:14:02  <andythenorth> o
09:14:50  <andythenorth> Wolf01: cogwheel NRT
09:14:55  <andythenorth> or cableway
09:15:04  <andythenorth> goes up hills with no slow down
09:15:23  <Wolf01> Agreed
09:17:27  <Wolf01> Let's do some NRT today
09:24:07  <andythenorth> quak
09:24:12  * andythenorth sees if that summons frosch
09:24:14  <andythenorth> works sometimes
09:25:56  <V453000> mooooooo
09:26:17  <Wolf01> You summoned a cow :D
09:31:34  <andythenorth> unlucky
09:32:42  <V453000> whaaaaat doooo yooooouuuuuuuu reequuuuuuuuuuuireeee moortallll
09:32:46  <V453000> mooooooooooo
09:32:47  <Wolf01> Committed a quick edit
09:34:22  <andythenorth> Wolf01: frosch might have a better suggestion, but I’d suggest we try to get a ‘normal’ road, where we can change the graphics, and vehicles can still drive on it
09:35:10  <Wolf01> Yes, I'm doing the structural part now, to prepare a base for loading the grf
09:35:40  <Wolf01> At the moment it just avoid to throw an error when loading it
09:35:44  <andythenorth> adding more types, and extended features (catenary etc) can come later :)
09:38:30  <Wolf01> Committed the biggest part, that spaghetti code which is "road types" with newgrf spec too
09:39:21  <andythenorth> I might merge that to my repo
09:40:27  <Wolf01> It's in my dev branch
09:41:33  * andythenorth exploring github
09:42:10  <Wolf01> Now... InitRoadTypes()
09:42:13  <andythenorth> pull requests are new to andythenorth
09:42:24  <andythenorth> usually merge branches in same repo :)
09:42:43  <Wolf01> I don't even know git, so I'm no help
09:43:29  <andythenorth> it’s just a matter of choosing right base and fork, but the direction is not obvious :P
09:45:45  <Wolf01> Ok, loading original roadtypes does not crash
09:45:53  <Wolf01> Which is nice
09:48:35  <andythenorth> Wolf01: is your gui branch merged into your dev branch?
09:48:58  <andythenorth> looks like it is
09:49:06  <Wolf01> No, there are some "in development" things related to gui
09:50:05  <Wolf01> For example, dev does not have separation between road and tram
09:50:26  <andythenorth> ah ok
09:50:32  <andythenorth> I was reading github wrong
09:50:35  <Wolf01> I should merge everything in trunk
09:50:46  <andythenorth> that’s why I can’t merge your dev to mine cleanly :)
09:51:34  <andythenorth> 9 conflicts https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/pull/4
09:54:28  <Wolf01> Yes, I know
09:56:53  <peter1138> i had a patch for roadtypes once
10:00:36  <andythenorth> didn’t you have 90% of it, then got stuck on a decision about something?
10:01:34  <peter1138> probably
10:06:48  <Wolf01> Strange thing, really strange... _sorted_roadtypes -> 2, _sorted_roadtypes_size -> 0
10:07:32  <Wolf01> And it must increment that counter when it sorts the roadtypes
10:08:49  <Wolf01> Ok, it didn't load the label
10:12:57  <andythenorth> is the label there?
10:13:12  <Wolf01> The original RoadTypes should be there
10:13:17  <andythenorth> ah ok
10:13:23  <andythenorth> nml tests complain that some of the roadtable functions aren’t reached
10:13:29  <andythenorth> which I couldn’t figure out
10:13:34  <Wolf01> *should* mean that I missed something
10:15:47  <Wolf01> ResetRoadTypes() should copy from the original roadtypes table, which has the labels
10:17:47  <Wolf01> The worse thing is that I didn't ever call ResetRoadTypes() -.-'''
10:19:18  <Wolf01> \o/ victory, rebuilt the dropdown with the roadtypes definitions
10:19:25  <Alberth> \o/
10:21:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: are you familiar with nml compiler at all?
10:21:49  <Alberth> I refactored it to python3
10:22:05  <Alberth> so I have seen everything, but no idea about global structure :p
10:22:28  <Alberth> in particular too many actionXYZ  that have absolutely no meaning to me
10:23:09  <Alberth> I should probably write a few newgrf extensions to get the idea
10:23:45  <andythenorth> I have added parser functions for roadtypes, cargo-culting the railtypes equivalents
10:23:48  <andythenorth> but they’re not reached
10:24:00  <Alberth> ok
10:24:03  <andythenorth> I can’t find anything where the railtypes versions are called, so either I’m wrong, or there’s some magic
10:24:05  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/tree/NotRoadTypes
10:24:25  <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pr7x1z5mp
10:24:35  <andythenorth> parser.py is the file
10:25:06  <andythenorth> the roadtypes example grf does compile ok
10:25:44  <Alberth> making a clone
10:25:59  <andythenorth> apologies for git :P
10:26:04  <andythenorth> there is no hg-hub
10:26:15  <Alberth> ah, I use it elsewhere too
10:26:33  <Alberth> it doesn't go well together with hg though, you get confused a lot
10:30:15  <Wolf01> I think we will need to split the vehicle pool, or at least filter it in future, having RVs and trams with multiple types will be a mess
10:30:50  <andythenorth> are helicopters and ‘normal’ planes split?
10:31:35  <Wolf01> No
10:31:54  <Wolf01> Filtering is preferred
10:31:59  <Alberth> railtype  gets added at line 90
10:32:21  <andythenorth> ach yup, thanks
10:32:29  <Alberth> yw
10:32:57  <andythenorth> string magic?
10:33:11  <Alberth> no, regular production rules
10:33:40  <andythenorth> interesting structures
10:33:52  <Alberth> the p_* functions are parser functions, and the doc string is the production rule
10:34:24  * andythenorth wikipedia
10:34:26  <Alberth> "main_block"  is one of the long list alternatives
10:34:35  <andythenorth> no comp sci degree for andythenorth :P
10:35:04  <andythenorth> otoh, I did study chomsky a bit
10:35:16  <Alberth> oh, you're an expert :p
10:35:56  <Alberth> the scanner processes the text of the input file, and splits it into tokens
10:36:27  <Alberth> ie the token stuff in tokens.py
10:36:56  <Alberth> a token is called a terminal
10:37:04  <andythenorth> I did one course in philosophy of language, chomsky was 1 lecture :P
10:37:08  <andythenorth> ‘expert'
10:37:20  <Alberth> the parser builds a tree from terminals
10:37:47  <Alberth> where each level in the tree is a non-terminal, an intermediate node with a name like "main_block"
10:38:10  <Alberth> the production rules are descriptions of the sub-trees
10:39:14  <Alberth> this way the computer finds the same hierarchical structure you believe to exist in eg nml code
10:39:50  <andythenorth> interesting
10:40:17  <Alberth> I graduated in compiler construction :p
10:40:55  <Alberth> expressions are easiest to understand probably
10:41:13  <Alberth> and there are plenty of toy calculator examples :p
10:41:32  <Alberth> eg at the PLY home page
10:41:46  <Alberth> in the documentation, used to explain how PLY works
10:42:32  <andythenorth> fundamentally, it’s substituting one set of known symbols for another?
10:42:43  <andythenorth> and there’s syntax validation
10:42:45  <andythenorth> ??
10:44:04  <Alberth> at the bottom level, the parser takes all production rules with only terminals, and matches one of them onto the first N terminals
10:44:42  <Alberth> with that match, it has created 1 level of the tree. It replaces the sequence of terminals with the matched non-terminal
10:45:12  <Alberth> then the game starts again, but now you get addition production rules that could match on the first non-terminal
10:45:18  <andythenorth> is this top-down parsing?
10:45:44  <Alberth> not necessarily, it depends on how smart the rule matcher is
10:46:05  * andythenorth is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse_tree
10:46:17  <Wolf01> \o/ loaded and allocated the first NRT from grf
10:46:30  <Alberth> a stupid rule matcher is indeed top-down, where you always take the first terminal, and then decide which way to go
10:46:36  <Wolf01> No props at the moment, just the label
10:46:41  <andythenorth> should probably look here instead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_syntax_tree
10:46:44  <andythenorth> Wolf01: \o/
10:46:45  <andythenorth> :)
10:46:52  <Alberth> it's a start wolf!
10:47:31  <Alberth> a smarter rule matcher can skip some stuff, and do eg bottom up parsing, with an algorithm like LALR(1)
10:47:57  <Alberth> a parse tree is literally the tree that I described
10:48:26  <andythenorth> :)
10:48:48  <Alberth> an abstract syntax tree is a reduced version of that, eg  [ 1, 2, 3 ]   becomes a list of 3 numbers, you don't need the [ ] , and while space
10:49:03  <Alberth> *white
10:49:22  <Alberth> which is commonly know as AST
10:49:36  * andythenorth now understands something more about grfcodec
10:49:57  <Alberth> the p_* functions do the parse tree -> AST conversion
10:50:21  <Alberth> you can see them picking the terminals and non-terminals with interesting information only
10:50:47  <andythenorth> and once we have the tree, outputting to some other format is relatively trivial?
10:50:51  <andythenorth> it’s just printing :P
10:51:05  <Alberth> template stuff, just like you do
10:51:33  <Alberth> usually though, there is a check step, and perhaps a conversion step in-between
10:51:45  <Alberth> check step is usually the most effort
10:51:51  <Wolf01> Oh, now I understand what are braces used for in cases...
10:52:22  <andythenorth> turns out I wrote parsers, years ago, by accident, with no theory
10:52:24  <andythenorth> badly
10:52:47  <Alberth> haha, I invented them too :)
10:53:20  <andythenorth> mine would have been string splits, then scanning
10:53:46  <andythenorth> but then we got xml support in flash, and everything was ok
10:53:47  <andythenorth> not :P
10:54:02  <Alberth> simplest is top-down parsing, where you go from left to right
10:54:22  <Alberth> trouble is that sometimes your language is more complicated than what top-down can handle
10:54:33  <Alberth> and there you start making hacks :p
10:54:50  <andythenorth> hacks never scale
10:54:56  <andythenorth> except for php
10:55:12  <Alberth> :D
10:55:25  <Alberth> non-hacky php is 0 size? :p
10:55:36  <andythenorth> the PHP inventor is quite interesting, he’s approximately about my standard at actual programming :P
10:55:51  <andythenorth> and doesn’t care
10:57:07  <Alberth> improving at programming does take time and effort, so maybe he has other priorities
10:57:27  <Alberth> what scares me more is that a zillion people use the language even today
10:57:35  <Alberth> knowing it's crappy
10:57:37  <andythenorth> nah, actually he’s a proper programmer, I am being rude :)
10:58:35  <Wolf01> Btw andy, would it be possible to have a newgrf with something more useful than speed limit and acceleration model props?
10:58:47  <Alberth> tbh I wouldn't be surprised if someone could pull that off, the php language isn't very well designed
10:58:50  <Wolf01> Maybe an alternate build menu name
10:59:00  <Wolf01> Just to see if it works
10:59:44  <Alberth> but a proper design is not the primary problem of most people, clearly :p
10:59:53  <andythenorth> Wolf01: in the NRT, right?  Not vehicles? (just checking)
11:00:13  <Wolf01> In NRT
11:00:26  * andythenorth explores
11:00:39  <Alberth> back to work :p
11:00:54  <andythenorth> Wolf01: do you have a way to build and run nmlc?
11:00:59  <Wolf01> Nope
11:01:06  <andythenorth> otherwise you are dependent on me uploading a grf somewhere :P
11:01:16  <andythenorth> ‘nml-as-a-web-service’ is needed
11:01:18  <andythenorth> :P
11:01:22  <Wolf01> Yup
11:01:33  <Wolf01> Lets start doing something with PHP
11:01:34  <Wolf01> ;)
11:02:07  <andythenorth> Wolf01: give me 5-10 mins, I’ll figure out what’s needed
11:02:18  <andythenorth> I never wrote a railtype grf, and I am copying from there, so need to read spec
11:03:41  <Wolf01> prop 0x0A
11:04:25  <Wolf01> One between 0x09 and 0x0B should be enough to show a change
11:05:38  <Wolf01> At least if it tries to change one of the base road types
11:06:11  <Wolf01> Because if it adds a new one, I'm not seeing it
11:09:04  <andythenorth> Wolf01: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8109/example_roadtype.grf
11:09:18  <andythenorth> I haven’t decompiled that with grfcodec to check the properties are set
11:09:22  <andythenorth> but it compiles ok
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11:09:30  <andythenorth> should set the name
11:10:54  <Alberth> :O  silversurferz cars now also seems to include tramz:  https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1177004#p1177004
11:12:56  <andythenorth> how rare
11:13:04  <andythenorth> someone should make tramz
11:15:27  <Wolf01> Ok, it loads but no change
11:16:01  <Wolf01> Did you change 0x1B?
11:16:23  <Wolf01> Because it says that it what is loaded
11:18:25  <Wolf01> I don't think I have a way to check that at the moment
11:21:08  <Wolf01> case 0x1B: // Name of roadtype (overridden by prop 09 for grf ver < 8) <- also
11:25:22  <Wolf01> I committed the current work, I'll try to merge all the branches in trunk now, so you could be able to pull
11:26:19  <andythenorth> cool
11:33:12  <Wolf01> Slow github is slow
11:39:26  <Wolf01> I'll retry in some hours, github doesn't love me
11:39:58  <Wolf01> If you want to try with grfs just clone locally my dev branch
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12:20:20  <andythenorth> Wolf01: back - was afk :)
12:20:25  <andythenorth> got family here
12:21:41  <Wolf01> Nothing changed yet
12:22:21  <andythenorth> ok
12:23:03  <Wolf01> But I load all the props, so if you want to give a try with different grf stuff you can use my dev branch
12:25:29  <andythenorth> ok I’ll get a clone shortly
12:25:37  <andythenorth> and make a stronger example grf
12:26:21  <Wolf01> Currently I think only menu/toolbar strings are handled
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12:29:17  <andythenorth> Wolf01: we could raise the game, and another type :P
12:34:39  * Wolf01 looks to eat something
12:35:09  <andythenorth> cheese
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12:41:28  <Hadrev> Hello together
12:43:53  <Alberth> o/
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12:45:34  <andythenorth> we should make some frog vehicles and a frog road
12:48:15  <V453000> slime trails?
12:50:25  <andythenorth> frogs eat slugs
12:50:46  <Alberth> oh dear
12:51:12  <V453000> ._.
12:52:48  <frosch123> yay, another fff about f taking over bugs from ottd :p
12:54:33  <andythenorth> it’s nice
12:54:46  <andythenorth> especially the geometry stuff for trains
12:55:10  <frosch123> https://eu2.factorio.com/assets/img/blog/fff-158-rails-work-in-progress-preview.jpg <- check the distance between the two rails
12:55:21  <frosch123> as it is distorted in various directions :)
12:55:24  <NGC3982> I'm really starting to love Factorio.
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13:02:08  <V453000> frosch123: that's the least of an issue XD
13:05:12  <V453000> the worst thing in factorio is probably the way how the rail metal part collides in junctions
13:05:23  <V453000> in openttd it is similar, maybe even worse
13:05:30  <V453000> in factorio it can at least be helped by separating it into layers
13:05:34  <V453000> in openttd you are fucked
13:05:52  <V453000> still doesn't look like real tracks with holes for "the other direction" but hm
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13:08:26  <Alberth> openttd was designed at 32 pixels
13:09:19  <V453000> ye
13:09:27  <V453000> the system is what matters, not resolution though :P
13:09:28  <V453000> but yeah
13:09:36  <V453000> the high resolution / rendered stuff makes shit apparent
13:11:31  <Wolf01> Good, I'm less hungry now
13:11:37  <NGC3982> What i don't like is Steam being confused on how to take screenshots of it.
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13:12:50  <V453000> never took screenshots through steam
13:12:55  <V453000> what's the thing?
13:19:51  * andythenorth needs coffee
13:21:25  <andythenorth> Wolf01: what next?
13:22:02  <Wolf01> Trying to make it set the catenary bit
13:22:21  <Wolf01> Powered vs unpowered light rail
13:23:17  <andythenorth> you want the test grf to set that also?
13:23:20  <andythenorth> or to have two types?
13:23:46  <NGC3982> V453000: It's normally easy to add non-Steam games to Steam. For me, it's usefull for screenshots.
13:23:51  <NGC3982> http://skarmdump.henjoh.se/
13:23:59  <Wolf01> Also 2 types would be cool, but for now let's modify the base type
13:24:16  <V453000> hm
13:24:18  <Wolf01> I don't know if the game could handle a new type as is
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13:44:51  <Wolf01> Merge don't work with git, stuck at getting revision range
13:45:14  <Wolf01> I'll try to do that manually
13:45:32  <V453000> we use merge with git
13:45:53  <Wolf01> I'm not able to use git, so I'm using svn over git
13:45:57  <andythenorth> Wolf01: you merging the branches?
13:46:10  <Wolf01> Yes
13:47:07  <andythenorth> I’ll clone your repo
13:47:10  <andythenorth> give me a couple of mins
13:47:21  <andythenorth> or you can merge through the github UI, but meh to that
13:49:00  <Wolf01> I tried with that, but I want more control
13:49:00  <andythenorth> Wolf01: give me push rights on your repo? o_O https://github.com/Wolfolo/NotRoadTypes
13:49:23  <andythenorth> I’ll probably break stuff, but it’s git, it will be fine :P
13:49:41  <Wolf01> Or we could just merge in yours
13:50:11  <Wolf01> But some things need to be changed as the 2 branches aren't compatible
13:50:19  <andythenorth> I don’t know how to merge from remote fork using git in shell
13:50:25  <andythenorth> cba to learn today
13:50:42  <andythenorth> just waiting for download of your repo
13:51:01  <Wolf01> Tortoise just crashed
13:53:34  <Wolf01> Ok, with manual range it works
13:54:22  <andythenorth> what are the .vcxproj files?
13:54:51  <Wolf01> Rebuilt projects for visual studio
13:54:58  <Wolf01> As I added some files
13:56:10  <andythenorth> 100% conflicts for all of those :)
13:56:22  <andythenorth> I will ignore them as I don’t know what to do with them
13:56:41  <andythenorth> so road_gui.cpp looks like it needs manual merge?  Functions are different
13:56:49  <Wolf01> Yes
13:57:15  <andythenorth> and road_gui.h is just a one line declaration needs changed / decided which to take
13:57:44  <Wolf01> The commit is failing :E
13:57:50  <andythenorth> message?
13:57:59  <Wolf01> It says I have to update first... I already done that
13:58:11  <Wolf01> Also that "File COPY operations are only supported in the same branch"
13:58:16  <andythenorth> interesting
13:58:35  <andythenorth> I just did a straight branch merge dev <- gui
13:58:51  <andythenorth> git co dev, git merge gui
13:59:01  <andythenorth> then resolve the conflicts
14:00:18  <Wolf01> Oh... it seem that the commit is trying to copy an added file from the other branch
14:00:29  <Wolf01> Which isn't updated o_O
14:01:43  <Wolf01> I bet github is doing chinese tortures with the svn clone
14:02:29  <Wolf01> I can't even update the dev branch
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14:19:00  <Wolf01> I should try to define a good function for the tram widget, if no tram is loaded it should gray out and not assert on dropdown length
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14:24:56  <andythenorth> railtypes has similar for if there are no valid vehicles yet
14:24:59  <andythenorth> iirc
14:25:08  <andythenorth> you have to scan the vehicle pool or something
14:25:20  <Wolf01> this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_TN_LTRAILS, !CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure(VEH_TRAM)); <- no effect, road and ltrail have the same key :(
14:25:58  <Wolf01> It must check for the e->info.misc_flags
14:26:29  <Wolf01> FOR_ALL_ENGINES_OF_TYPE(e, VEH_ROAD) { if (!HasBit(e->info.misc_flags, EF_ROAD_TRAM)) continue; }
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14:31:41  <Wolf01> What if I split VEH_ROAD and VEH_TRAM?
14:33:35  <andythenorth> I wondered about that
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14:33:58  <andythenorth> dunno if it’s necessary though
14:34:16  <Wolf01> It would allow me to perform an additional check
14:40:31  <Wolf01> I think we could just use the classic gui for now, as the split needs more work to be bug-free
14:43:09  <andythenorth> keep the branches separate?
14:43:13  <Wolf01> Yes
14:43:18  <andythenorth> seems wise
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14:43:39  <Wolf01> One is just for gui tampering, not newgrf and stuff
14:47:36  <Wolf01> Ok, don't ever consider to split VEH_ROAD and VEH_TRAM
14:50:48  <Wolf01> The problem is that trams seem to have been added in a hurry, or just to not copy/put conditions everywhere in the whole road handling
14:51:34  <Wolf01> Btw, I'll continue with catenary
15:03:50  <Wolf01> return HasBit(GetRoadTypeInfo(roadtype)->powered_roadtypes, RoadTypeToRoadTypes(roadtype)); ????
15:08:29  <andythenorth> trams added in a hurry <- that was the sense I got from reading tram code
15:08:42  <andythenorth> it’s very “just make it work” afaict :)
15:09:36  <Wolf01> I think I couldn't use powered roadtypes, or maybe I set those in the wrong way
15:09:59  <Wolf01> There should alway be catenary, also on roads with the current setting
15:15:17  <Wolf01> For rails, the catenary is a flag
15:15:21  <Wolf01> I could copy that
15:18:32  <Wolf01> Ok, added catenary to tram
15:19:11  <Wolf01> Now I need a grf wich disables catenary, or I could disable it again and a grf could enable it
15:20:05  <Wolf01> prop 0x10 bit 7 set
15:20:38  * Wolf01 goes to play with water
15:23:24  <Wolf01> andythenorth, committed if you vant to give it a try
15:23:30  <Wolf01> *want
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15:25:58  * andythenorth compiles
16:02:03  <andythenorth> hmm, need to extend nmlc some more
16:19:06  <Wolf01> Did you succeed on enabling catenary?
16:49:30  <andythenorth> nah not yet
16:49:55  <andythenorth> will come back to it later though - just needs some functions added
16:49:59  * andythenorth biab
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17:40:40  <supermop> yo
17:43:13  <andythenorth> lo supermop
17:43:29  <supermop> sv on?
17:48:04  <andythenorth> needs moved to the nightly server
17:48:07  <andythenorth> I’ve got a save
17:48:11  <andythenorth> I am cooking right now though :P
17:49:37  <supermop> i might get some pho
17:49:42  <supermop> chilly day here
17:57:35  <andythenorth> hmm
17:57:56  <andythenorth> does NRT get the ability to forbid level crossings as a newgrf property?  Same as railtypes?
17:57:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^
17:58:02  <andythenorth> might be a case for that?
18:01:16  <andythenorth> Wolf01: again, haven’t decompiled to test this, but it compiles with the catenary flag set http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8110/example_roadtype.grf
18:01:36  <andythenorth> doesn’t show catenary in my build of ottd though
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18:05:07  <andythenorth> nor is console printing that prop 0x10 bit 7 is set
18:05:12  <andythenorth> prints some other stuff ;)
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18:20:14  <NekoMaster> Well if its not one thing its another when I try to get things done myself... Its like the universe doesn't want me to mod OpenTTD
18:21:04  <andythenorth> this is programming
18:21:09  <andythenorth> it’s how it goes ;)
18:21:19  <NekoMaster> This time its not programing issues >_>
18:21:54  <NekoMaster> Now GIMP doesnt want to let me do anything, so I can't make new sprites or set up sprite sheets
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18:25:51  <NekoMaster> GIMP wont let me cut, paste, delete, or draw... and everything was working fine last night when I made a new sprite
18:26:51  <andythenorth> can’t help with gimp
18:27:05  <NekoMaster> I dunno any other image editor that has pallet support
18:27:11  <andythenorth> what happens if you open a completely new document?
18:27:19  <NekoMaster> Still the same thing
18:27:32  <andythenorth> if you were asking about photoshop, I would say you’d toggled a specific mode
18:27:35  <NekoMaster> Make a new image in GIMP, be it RGB or Indexed
18:27:43  <NekoMaster> I can't afford photoshop
18:27:43  <andythenorth> there are various modes in photoshop that have that behaviour
18:27:57  <andythenorth> my point is that gimp is a photoshop clone
18:28:02  <NekoMaster> I know
18:28:02  <andythenorth> it might have a similar behaviour
18:28:15  <andythenorth> but usually they apply to each document, not the whole app
18:28:18  <NekoMaster> Though I don't remember doing anything special last night when I finished up
18:28:29  <andythenorth> usually triggered by pressing a key, like ‘q’ for quick mask or so
18:28:30  <NekoMaster> Also I dunno how to clear out all of gimps settings
18:30:39  <NekoMaster> ok well i just had to go into the preferances and reset the tool settings to defaults
18:30:43  <NekoMaster> and now I can cut and paste and edit
18:30:45  <NekoMaster> : I
18:30:52  <andythenorth> you toggled some tool mode by accident
18:30:54  <andythenorth> dunno what
18:31:21  <NekoMaster> I wouldn't know either
18:31:32  <NekoMaster> then again my left hand has a tendancy to click/hit things randomly
18:31:37  <andythenorth> NekoMaster: the flipping thing
18:31:48  <andythenorth> how long are your sprites (in 8/8 units)?
18:31:50  <NekoMaster> Anyways I think I have it back to normal now
18:32:03  <NekoMaster> My sprites vary from 6/8 to 9/8 at hte moment
18:32:23  <andythenorth> and have you set the length appropriately in the vehicle props?
18:32:24  <NekoMaster> In other news, I dunno how to get a 9/8 sprite to work properly without clipping into things in front
18:32:34  <NekoMaster> NML will only let me set a max length of 8
18:32:45  <andythenorth> 8/8 is the maximum length
18:32:53  <NekoMaster> How is longer trains done?
18:32:56  <andythenorth> you have to break the vehicle into parts, like Iron Horse and CETS do it
18:33:03  <andythenorth> which has some…side effects
18:33:11  <NekoMaster> But NARS has some longer stuff thats not broken up
18:33:42  <andythenorth> must be multi-unit
18:33:45  <NekoMaster> I was thining that perhaps an invisable part could be added
18:33:53  <NekoMaster> but I dunno how to make an articulated vehicle yet
18:33:56  <andythenorth> yes, that’s how Iron Horse and CETs do it
18:34:05  <andythenorth> when I say ‘broken’ up, I don’t mean the sprites ;)
18:34:27  <andythenorth> so a 9/8 vehicle might be 2/8 + 5/8 + 2/8
18:34:28  <andythenorth> or so
18:34:33  <NekoMaster> I was thinking that my 9/8 Turbine sprite would have a 9/8 Sprite which will over hang (but code it as 8/8, and have a 1/8 invisable part in the end to space it out)
18:34:46  <andythenorth> if you add 1/8 you’ll have a nightmare with offsets
18:34:54  <NekoMaster> Hmm
18:34:58  <andythenorth> you are better with 3 vehicles
18:35:08  <andythenorth> ask Eddi|zuHause for advice ;)
18:35:13  <NekoMaster> Then again, does making Articulated vehicles apply to Steam engines as well?
18:35:20  <andythenorth> yes
18:35:21  <NekoMaster> because I plan to add steamers eventually with tenders
18:35:28  <andythenorth> articulated is not hard
18:35:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: sure, but hardly important for a start :)
18:36:45  <NekoMaster> I imagine the articulated code can go into the same NML file with your vehicles?
18:36:46  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am at the point of the nml properties
18:36:49  <andythenorth> NekoMaster: iron-horse.nml
18:36:52  <andythenorth> oops
18:36:57  <andythenorth> NekoMaster: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8111/iron-horse.nml
18:37:06  <NekoMaster> I like keeping my vehicle NML stuff in one file for each engine
18:37:09  <andythenorth> yes
18:37:27  <andythenorth> but for a steam engine with tender, your engine is at least 2 vehicles
18:37:36  <andythenorth> or more if you have a long one, or something weird like a garratt
18:37:57  <andythenorth> you can do the articulated sub-vehicles all in one file
18:38:00  <NekoMaster> The weirdest I'll have is a Mallet type AC6 Cab-Forward
18:38:26  <andythenorth> I don’t know if Iron Horse code is useful, but eh
18:38:29  <NekoMaster> Only problem is that I've only gotten this far after someone gave me some NML to work with
18:38:34  <andythenorth> quite impressed you’ve got this far, you should keep going
18:38:46  <andythenorth> many people don’t get this far
18:38:50  <NekoMaster> Sylf basically started the code for me, and I've just been recycling
18:39:13  <NekoMaster> If it wasn't for sylf I wouldn't have gotten this far
18:39:37  <andythenorth> you will learn skills from this, even if coding isn’t your thing
18:39:54  <NekoMaster> once I understand things I don't mind coding
18:40:04  <NekoMaster> my major issue is that its so hard to understand anything
18:40:28  <andythenorth> ‘life'
18:40:43  <NekoMaster> Lol
18:40:54  <andythenorth> do you want to figure out the flipping thing, or is your focus on something else right now?
18:41:19  <NekoMaster> Well it would be nice to figure out how to make my Westing House Bluegoose 9/8 sprite work properly
18:41:30  <NekoMaster> I'm not too worried about flipping for now
18:42:03  <andythenorth> learn how to make an articulated vehicle in that case?
18:42:07  <NekoMaster> Yes
18:42:10  <NekoMaster> that would be helpful
18:42:24  <NekoMaster> I'll need the knowledge for bigger things as well
18:42:34  <NekoMaster> Like the EP4 Little Joe and Great northern W1
18:42:38  <NekoMaster> both are bigger then 8/8
18:42:42  <andythenorth> L190 in iron-horse.nml shows you a switch that handles the articulated callback
18:43:09  <andythenorth> and L423 shows you where the callback is added to the graphics block
18:43:22  <andythenorth> the formatting in the file is horrible, that code is all generated, not written by hand
18:43:23  <NekoMaster> I opened up ironhorse.nml and I can't find l190
18:43:37  <andythenorth> L190
18:43:59  <andythenorth> does notepad tell you the line number you’re on?
18:44:02  <NekoMaster> yeah I searched up L190 and Notepad++ can't find it
18:44:06  <NekoMaster> or you mean Line 190?
18:44:17  <andythenorth> yair
18:44:22  <NekoMaster> derp
18:44:27  <andythenorth> some editors have ‘jump to line #'
18:45:04  <NekoMaster> yeah, Notepad++ has "Go to..." and you can punch in the line number
18:45:52  <NekoMaster> For me to really understand how to get this working, it might be nice if I could have a copy of the Chaplins graphics and vehicle nmls
18:47:05  <andythenorth> the graphics are in here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository
18:47:36  <andythenorth> actually Chaplin is a tank engine, and Iron Horse *always* uses 3 parts for every vehicle even if it’s not longer than 8/8
18:47:43  <andythenorth> because that’s easier to code
18:47:44  <NekoMaster> ahh
18:47:55  <NekoMaster> Are there any vehicles with multiple visable parts?
18:47:56  <andythenorth> but you should be able to figure out the articulated switch
18:47:59  <andythenorth> yes
18:48:08  <NekoMaster> also all the code is in python
18:48:24  <andythenorth> line 2403 - big bertha
18:48:27  <andythenorth> tender engine
18:49:00  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> doesn’t show catenary in my build of ottd though <-I think the flag is wrong, it loads "1" instead of "64"
18:49:25  <Wolf01> At least if I understand how this works
18:50:10  <Wolf01> But I can use another enum just for grf, maybe it's better
18:50:49  * andythenorth biab - eating
18:52:52  <Wolf01> Oh, I didn't merged the part where I used it to change even the GB() function, I can put any value... so 0
18:54:35  <Wolf01> Ok, it seem to work
19:08:04  <NekoMaster> Hmm
19:08:20  <NekoMaster> How would one code a railslug for OPenTTD?
19:08:38  <NekoMaster> make a no-powered engine that provides traction when connected to a diesel?
19:09:37  <andythenorth> complicated switches
19:09:40  <andythenorth> it could be done
19:09:51  <NekoMaster> Is there an easy way to do it?
19:10:12  <NekoMaster> can an attached car or engine copy the traction of the head end locomotive?
19:10:20  <Wolf01> There wasn't one in nars?
19:10:24  <NekoMaster> Nope
19:10:35  <NekoMaster> Slugs are demened superflouse
19:10:44  <andythenorth> you have to detect the ID of the neighbouring vehicle
19:10:52  <andythenorth> and then adjust the power
19:11:06  <andythenorth> you also need to check the grfid to make sure it’s same grf, not some totally other grf :P
19:11:27  <andythenorth> and if you want to allow it to connect to NARS 2 engines, you’d need to check a couple of grfids
19:11:33  <NekoMaster> yeah
19:11:41  <NekoMaster> i guess I should leave that for now until another time
19:12:01  <NekoMaster> im just going back to setting up sprite sheets... i have a headache now from trying to understand new code
19:14:05  <andythenorth> NekoMaster: leave the slug :)
19:14:15  <andythenorth> if you look in iron-horse.nml at cargo_sprinter_switch_graphics_0_1_check_preceding_vehicle_same_id
19:14:28  <andythenorth> you’ll find that there’s a lot of switches that check neighbouring vehicles around there
19:14:33  <andythenorth> but it’s non-trivial
19:14:58  <andythenorth> those are for switching graphics, not power, but same approach would work
19:15:40  <Wolf01> Andy, I don't know how, but would be possible to change props of the second roadtype?
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19:18:03  <Wolf01> Also, I committed the fix, so you can try it yourself
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19:18:40  <Samu> Hi glx I'm on my fx-8150 system again, won't be on the athlon xp 2700+ anytime soon
19:19:54  <Samu> i tried to create a SSE build but openttd crashes
19:20:24  <Samu> the release build crashes, the debug build doesn't crash
19:20:58  <Samu> Unhandled exception at 0x00FD0002 in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation executing location 0x00FD0002.
19:21:46  <Samu> >	openttd.exe!Vehicle::HandleLoading(bool mode) Line 2156	C++
19:22:15  <Samu> 			this->LeaveStation();
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19:34:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01: it’s only one roadtype so far :)
19:34:24  <andythenorth> I’ll add another shortly
19:38:40  <andythenorth> bah
19:38:42  <andythenorth> grf isn’t valid
19:39:24  <andythenorth> “attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 80)"
19:46:36  <V453000> was modelling a water tanker and suddenly I bought new headphones for home ._.
19:46:38  <V453000> escalated quickly
19:46:48  <Wolf01> :D
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19:54:39  <andythenorth> V453000: sounds pretty standard
19:54:51  <V453000> happens to you with lego?
19:56:18  <andythenorth> trainers
19:57:52  <V453000> trainers?
19:58:16  <andythenorth> I was just checking email, and then I had to buy these http://cdn3.sarenza.net/static/_img/productsV4/0000122997/MD_0000122997_230621_09.jpg?201510021649
19:58:33  <andythenorth> not actually true, andythenorth never checks email
20:01:28  <V453000> XD
20:02:21  <V453000> yeah ... http://www.tweak.dk/images/gallery/tweak_dk_sennheiser_rs_185_07_front_paa_holder_fullsize_1000px.jpg
20:02:28  <andythenorth> now I have to look for new ones
20:07:09  <V453000> gnight
20:12:31  <andythenorth> oops
20:12:34  * andythenorth bought trainers
20:20:01  <andythenorth> bye
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20:55:06  <Samu> Milek7_: hi, i'm testing a server with 240 ais
20:55:31  <Samu> https://www.openttd.org/en/server/101325
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21:18:14  <Milek7_> Samu: how much cpu it uses?
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21:48:13  <Samu> Milek7_: oops, sorry i was watching tv
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21:50:56  <Samu> i'm not sure, it's spiky
21:51:55  <Samu> average 9%
21:52:05  <Samu> spikes to 12.5%
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22:46:01  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:59:55  <Samu> i had to stop server
23:00:32  <Samu> was already using 21 GB memory, using the hdd too much
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