Log for #openttd on 4th October 2016:
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00:11:20  <Samu> something very strange is happening
00:11:42  <Samu> i can't generate a world with french town names, it gets stuck
00:11:47  <Samu> openttd is stuck
00:12:38  <Samu> erm, nevermind, it created only 68, that's is too low
00:13:32  <Samu> i really thought it had stuck, lol
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00:41:06  <Samu> patch posted
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00:41:11  <Samu> cyas goodnight
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00:43:33  <supermop_> yo
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00:44:39  <goblin> dat priority... how does it work?
00:44:43  <goblin> I'm using path signals normally
00:45:01  <goblin> the wiki says something about "two-way pre-signals" (under the Basic Priority), but I can't find ones like that
00:45:29  <goblin> I only have Block, Entry, Exit and Combo signals
00:45:49  <goblin> and not really sure how to interpret that picture on the wiki
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00:47:18  <supermop_> you dont really need it
00:47:25  <supermop_> priorities are kind of arcane
00:47:49  <supermop_> like most of the use cases for entry signals
00:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> with "pre-signal" they probably mean "entry"
00:49:27  <goblin> oh. hm. So how do I... hm.
00:49:33  <supermop_> certain play styles that favor building tracks almost like circuit boards do some interesting things with them, but if you just want a good capacity rail line that wont jam up you dont really need priorities
00:49:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the naming was changed a few years back
00:49:51  <goblin> probably, yeah, but I'm having difficulty distinguishing it from others and guessing where do path-based ones go
00:50:05  <supermop_> and they will probably cause more problems than they solve
00:50:17  <supermop_> goblin: just use path everywhere
00:50:26  <supermop_> mostly one-way
00:50:54  <goblin> supermop_, hm, ok, so when I'm merging something onto something with more traffic... how do I prevent that more-traffic path to become stopped?
00:51:01  <Sylf> Those people who talk a lot about priority mainly use block signals
00:51:08  <goblin> right
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00:51:16  <Sylf> path signals are rare use case for them
00:51:21  <supermop_> in a few places, like a bi-directional platform or center track use the two-way
00:51:36  <goblin> supermop_, right, yes, that's what I'm doing
00:51:40  <Sylf> path signals can be used to construct prio too
00:51:40  <supermop_> goblin: that is tricky
00:51:46  <goblin> only really use two-way path on terminus-style stations
00:51:58  <supermop_> but tbh the most effective way is scheduling, not priorities
00:52:11  <goblin> scheduling? Like, time tables?
00:52:18  <supermop_> yeah
00:52:29  <goblin> I don't see it
00:52:40  <goblin> I have a very long bridge so I doubled the path before and after it
00:52:45  <supermop_> it is a lot of work on dense lines, but you can get it so that only one train is passing a junction at any time
00:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need priorities for a doubled bridge
00:53:03  <goblin> and after the bridge, when 2 paths merge into one, everything slows down because the trains accelerate and then stop
00:53:39  <Sylf> that's totally not something you can solve with prio
00:53:42  <goblin> first the left one accelerates, then the right one, and it keeps flipping
00:53:51  <goblin> ok, cool, good to know :-)
00:53:54  <supermop_> yeah
00:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you've got an "evil mode" then
00:54:18  <Sylf> You need more capacity for the line overall, so the trains don't have to slow down at or around the bridges
00:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as the first one slows down, you get this ripple effect that slows everything down
00:54:28  <supermop_> what you need is more spacing between trains, or double the whole line
00:54:29  <Sylf> assuming you're playing the coop style game
00:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to prevent that first slowdown
00:55:29  <goblin> can I read up about that? Preferably some article that knows about path signals? :-)
00:55:34  <supermop_> if the capacity of the single bridge is enough,  then space out the trains so that they dont wait for it to clear. if that capacity is too low, the double the bridge
00:56:16  <goblin> supermop_, _more_ spacing? that's interesting... I always use 2 squares distance between signals, read it on a wiki somewhere
00:56:40  <goblin> I guess it's way too low
00:56:50  <Sylf> goblin:
00:56:50  <supermop_> but i this case, a priority would at best doom one track to always be stuck waiting, at worst just give you your current problem but worse
00:56:53  <goblin> but the jam happens after the joiner after the bridge
00:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, 2 tiles is overkill, one train length usually works unless you try to pack really tight
00:57:06  <goblin> thanks Sylf :-)
00:57:15  <supermop_> goblin: no i mean how far apart are the trains in time
00:57:26  <Eddi|zuHause> might make it denser in areas with acceleration occuring
00:57:42  <Sylf> there's also
00:57:51  <supermop_> imagine you are standing at a real train station - do the trains come every 10 minutes, or every hour?
00:58:16  <supermop_> or do 6 come 1 minute apart and then none for 54 minutes?
00:59:08  <goblin> supermop_, well, yeah, the line is near its capacity, but I'm curious how to juice it up to the maximum ;-) manual scheduling for all those trains would be rather tedious I think
00:59:16  <supermop_> and if it is 6 trains per hour, your junction will work more smoothly if they have a regular spacing of time between them
00:59:39  <supermop_> goblin: if its fully saturated the only way is add another track
00:59:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a maglev line that merged, and i had to do very exact timetabling to prevent slowdown from occuring at the merge
01:00:26  <supermop_> if you find you need 10 trains per hour, but they need to be 10 minutes apart, your only hope is a 2nd line
01:01:18  <Sylf> if you want to saturate lines to max, you do this
01:01:27  <goblin> supermop_, well, it's not fully saturated yet, it just saturates after the bridge, the rest is reasonably empty
01:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure the two paths over the bridge are exactly the same length
01:02:24  <goblin> okie, thanks a lot for all your help, I'll do the reading and come back :-)
01:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be no conflict on the merge
01:02:42  <supermop_> if the saturation is local, try a timetable - it isnt as hard as it looks
01:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as all trains enter at max speed
01:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the two paths are the same length
01:03:00  <supermop_> happy to give timetabling advice
01:03:05  <goblin> supermop_, but there's so many stations behind the bridge (before the jam happens)
01:03:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and there is no jam point beyond the bridge
01:03:52  <supermop_> tbh i find it really satisfying to get a bunch of timetabled trains optimized
01:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but creating timetables in complex networks is a nightmare
01:04:27  <supermop_> goblin: you can autofil with a train running to get a starting point to work from
01:04:57  <supermop_> goblin: do all of these trains follow the same route/have the same orders?
01:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be an "instant" autofill that just makes a calculation of track length and acceleration
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01:05:24  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: man that would be great
01:06:07  <supermop_> or a night/non revenue service mode where you can test a new train over the line without wasting 2 years
01:06:55  <goblin> supermop_, nope!
01:07:18  <goblin> some of them load wood, some of them coal, and some receive oil transfers
01:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: that's called reloading
01:12:12  <goblin> so the "Solution" at mentions... priority!
01:12:38  <goblin> it's doing some kinda weird look-ahead priority with path signals I think, but I'm not quite getting it
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01:15:23  <Sylf> actually, coop's stance is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to anything
01:15:28  <Sylf> just so you know
01:15:48  <goblin> yeah but I'd like to learn /at least/ one solution ;-)
01:16:12  <Sylf> the best solution is to let people see the actual problem via multi player or sharing the game sav
01:19:12  <goblin> I mean, I know I should probably just double the line and all
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01:19:26  <goblin> but it doesn't satisfy my curiosity about all this priority stuff
01:20:24  <Sylf> Priority is not the tool to fix a slow down at a double bridge.
01:20:32  <Sylf> That much I can say definitively.
01:21:05  <Sylf> beyond that, priority is all about learning how pre-signals work
01:22:08  <goblin> right, but the link to Destructive Interference mentions only one solution to the problem and that solution is based on priority :-D
01:22:24  <Sylf> that's a bad example
01:22:33  <goblin> so, aside from increasing the capacity of the line, are there /other/ solutions?
01:22:49  <Sylf> it may have worked for that particular case.  That's about all
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01:23:23  <Sylf> make sure 2 paths lengths are absolutely the same, including exact count of straight and diagonal tracks
01:23:54  <Sylf> and make sure that trains just don't slow down on the congested lines
01:24:02  <Sylf> ever.
01:24:05  <goblin> oh, they most certainly aren't
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02:45:02  <supermop_> Sylf: do the pf penalties have to be exactly equal?
02:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the vehicle steps, not the pathfinder penalties
02:45:59  <supermop_> doesn't a train on line ahead weigh enough to overcome any slightly higher bits of the empty line?
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02:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> if the lines have different numbers of steps, then a train taking the shorter route will run into the previous train taking the longer route, forcing him to stop
02:47:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and once a train has to stop, you have "lost"
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02:48:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no way out of that other than stopping all trains and emptying the line, then starting up again
02:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> note that straight vehicle steps do not equal diagonal vehicle steps
02:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to have the same number of diagonal trackbits
02:53:58  <supermop_> wouldn't the lengths need to be vastly different to be meaningful?
02:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no, if your trains are tightly packed, even small differences can have this impact
02:54:34  <supermop_> surely both trains would reach a station or something before they had to merge again?
02:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> this is about a doubled bridge, not a station
03:03:15  <Sylf> the pf penalty of red signal is probably bigger than any other form of pf penalties from multiple bridges/tunnels, extra slopes etc
03:06:02  <supermop_> going to bed
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09:12:21  <LordAro> who runs the OpenTTDSVN twitter? i think zephyris? it seems to have got stuck:
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09:16:23  <Wolf01> o/
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12:02:08  <Samu> hi
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13:20:31  <goblin> Trains can make one 45° turn without slowing down.
13:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they can also make two opposite 45° turns without slowing down
13:21:21  <goblin> ^ doesn't seem to be the case for me, I have an AsiaStar locomotive with 8 wagons, and it slows down from 265 to about 200km/h on a 45deg turn
13:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> are you using realistic acceleration?
13:22:11  <peter1138> "new" or "old" acceleration?
13:22:28  <peter1138> heh, it's "realistic" of course haha
13:22:54  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: "new" and "old" are even worse names than "realistic"
13:23:02  <goblin> oops sorry :-) yeah the setting wasn't changed on that save, sorry, was the old one
13:23:09  <peter1138> hence the quotes
13:43:02  <supermop__> good morning
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14:17:22  <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
14:18:22  <Wolf01> So, it's morning or afternoon?
14:18:51  <goodger> both, and neither
14:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> schrödinger's noon
14:27:13  <supermop__> don't look
14:27:30  <supermop__> then i can believe its 18:30 and go home
14:28:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, post-fact society is the new trend
14:28:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "felt" reality is more important than "facts"
14:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> people "feel" like crime is rising, even though statistics say it's been consistently dropping in the last 20 years
14:32:46  <Wolf01> I feel like I'm alone :(
14:45:20  <goodger> people feel like the UK is disadvantaged by the lisbon treaty
14:45:30  <goodger> but that's mostly because they have no idea what it says
14:52:08  <Samu> wrightai is the most disasterous AI
14:52:32  <Samu> aircraft disasters everywhere
14:52:38  <Samu> uses big planes on small airports
14:54:24  <Samu> unrealistic acceleration
14:54:35  <Samu> faster than bugatti
14:55:20  <Eddi|zuHause> treaties like that are like program code, nobody involved ever reads the whole thing, just the excerpts that concern them
14:56:22  <Eddi|zuHause> like, nobody in here ever read the ENTIRETY of the openttd code
15:01:46  <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: last week congress here passed a law that apparently only one senator really read
15:01:49  <goodger> welp, hintjens is dead
15:02:09  <goodger> to which I say: bugger.
15:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: the surprise here is that they actually passed a law at all :p
15:02:32  <supermop__> even though the white house, judiciary, military, and most gov't agencies pleaded with them not to pass it
15:02:57  <goodger> justice against sponsors of terrorism bill?
15:03:28  <supermop__> and then immediately congress complained that they didn't know about these unintended consequences and that the white house didn't warn them enough about it
15:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: that's also one of the cases where the "feeling" that these people try to talk them out of it reinforces the will to actually pass it
15:03:44  <goodger> justice against sponsors of terrorism bill.
15:04:11  <goodger> mcdonnell will blame obama for anything, including not vetoing something strongly enough, or something
15:04:35  <supermop__> so now republicans get to sit back and watch as all the soldiers they send to far away countries get put on trial and imprisoned there
15:04:51  <goodger> wouldn't that be something
15:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not only about soldiers, it's mainly about capital investments
15:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "wait, your multinational company has a subsidiary that builds drone parts? your drone shot this wedding ceremony, we confiscate all your multi-million assets"
15:06:13  <supermop__> yeah
15:06:40  <supermop__> but the republicans like to scream so much about how they love to protect the troops
15:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be really funny if that actually happened on a large scale
15:07:14  <goodger> not sure how they think they can claim that, considering more american soldiers are diagnosed with PTSD than actually fight
15:07:29  <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: that amount of complex thought is too much for most of these congressmen to wrap their heads around
15:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: again, facts are irrelevant
15:07:46  <goodger> #TakeBackControl
15:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: it's about portraying this feeling of "protecting the troops" to people that are not involved with the troops
15:12:58  <Samu> the index 'Contains' does not exist - i lol'ed
15:14:24  <supermop__> keep hoping that this election will destroy that party, but i keep being disappointed
15:16:12  <goblin> changing signal spacing from 2 to 6 did introduce jams on my test track, so it does matter :-)
15:16:22  <goblin> (using length 5.0 trains)
15:16:59  <Samu> nerf trains!
15:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i said place signals denser in areas with acceleration (like after a merge, or after a station)
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15:18:53  <goblin> Eddi|zuHause, that test track was just a loop with nothing to slow the trains down
15:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> well, once one train slows down, all the trains slow down
15:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if that occurs on an otherwise block-free network, you have too many trains
15:20:28  <goblin> yup. But if there's more space for it to accelerate (or rather, more space between signals), that alleviates the problem
15:21:04  <goblin> well, the number of trains was kept constant for the duration of the experiment ;-)
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15:23:59  <goblin> using only that right-hand loop atm, it handles 15 trains at full speed with signals spaced every ~2 tiles
15:24:08  <goblin> add a 16th train, jams start
15:24:22  <goblin> change the signal spacing to 6, jams start with 15 trains as well
15:26:00  <goblin> looks like the "Long Reserve PBS Signal" feature request will solve my problem :-)
15:26:36  <goblin> "Signals in tunnels and bridges" would be awesome too
15:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i never said "it makes no difference"... the difference is just pretty small
15:29:37  <goblin> ah, yeah, well, agreed, the jams weren't too horrible so it would probably flow well at 13 or 14 trains
15:30:29  <Samu>!Ah9vX-Q9n7Ijg1lKmSUn_4vEc-R0 - my raisl
15:30:39  <goblin> still, that track visually looks like it could handle more. If the trains accelerated together as a group, then maybe...
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15:50:51  <omarie> hai
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16:01:55  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: does this apply to gender identity as well
16:02:05  <argoneus> that you "believe" you're a girl even though you have a different arsenal
16:02:51  <goodger> wow
16:03:29  <argoneus> not that there's anything inherently wrong with it
16:03:32  <argoneus> just seems odd is all
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16:05:11  <goodger> argoneus: I have a couple of particularly loathsome acquaintances to whom you should say that
16:05:27  <goodger> I mean, I could do with a good laugh
16:06:21  <argoneus> I don't want to pick fights for no reason
16:06:37  <argoneus> it's just like my opinion
16:09:28  <Samu> i just completed a test of 37 AIs using default out-of-the-box installed openttd
16:09:42  <Wolf01> <argoneus> that you "believe" you're a girl even though you have a different arsenal <- like being an apache helicopter?
16:10:09  <Wolf01> It looks like thats the trend of this year
16:10:27  <argoneus> kek
16:11:04  <supermop> Wolf01: there have been plenty of trans identifying people here throughout the 20th century
16:11:31  <argoneus> the approach to them was usually "mate you have a problem" instead of "you're so brave!" though
16:11:40  <argoneus> but I digress, this is a channel about trains
16:11:53  <goodger> also trams
16:12:03  <Samu> it's about AIs
16:12:35  <Wolf01> I like trains and trams, but also transport... not really much trans... but that's my opinion
16:12:53  <argoneus> eh, they're nice people for the most part, just like everyone else
16:13:18  <Wolf01> Unless they do it for fame
16:14:07  <Wolf01> I have gay friends, but they won't attend at a gay pride, because that's a carnival
16:16:09  <goodger> I am pretty sure my husband is gay
16:16:44  <Wolf01> Btw, playing with water time :P
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16:40:22  <goblin> maybe trains have gender identity too?
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16:41:39  <Alberth> o/
16:41:48  <Wolf01> Quak
16:42:07  <frosch123> mola
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17:43:21  <Samu> airport efficiency, I don't think this makes much sense
17:43:38  <Alberth> it doesn't indeed
17:44:12  <Alberth> we need new airports, that you can build like trains
17:44:27  <Alberth> ie build run-way, and terminals
17:44:41  <Alberth> heliports, hangrs, etc
17:44:53  <Samu> interesting
17:45:59  <Samu> well i'm still gonna post this "airport efficiency" score
17:46:58  <Samu> as for canal efficiency... maybe in the future ais will actually make canals
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17:55:58  <Samu> airport pieces
17:56:09  <Samu> very interesting idea indeed
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18:11:28  <Samu> aiai v95 is better than aiai v97, something's gone wrong
18:11:36  <Alberth> :)
18:11:55  <Samu> there's a clear road usage deficit with v97
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18:48:59  <Samu> this is really strange
18:49:07  <Samu> some AIs actually do better with inflation turned on
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19:11:15  <user52341> hi there, can i play openttd without mouse? only keyboard.
19:11:33  <Alberth> tricky, I think
19:12:19  <Alberth> dragging tracks, building bridges etc is going to be a major problem
19:12:47  <Alberth> maybe the mobile version would be better suited?
19:13:08  <Alberth> don't know how they handle lack of mouse there, though
19:16:03  <Alberth>
19:17:40  <user52341> ok, thank you
19:20:44  <Milek7_> Alberth: phones have touchscreens ;p
19:21:02  <Alberth> likely
19:23:56  <Samu> oops, my counting of stations is bad
19:24:26  <Alberth> simplify your counting:   1, 2, many
19:25:00  <Samu> company lists 2 stations, but detailed performance rating counts 4 stations serviced
19:25:16  <Alberth> ha :)
19:25:34  <FLHerne> Samu: Oil rigs?
19:26:06  <Samu> nop, bus + truck stations count as 1 when listing, but counts as 2 in the detailed performance rating
19:26:44  <Samu> gelignAIte has a service rate of 200%
19:26:48  <Samu> :(
19:27:00  <Samu> 4/2
19:27:36  <Alberth> sounds good :)
19:28:22  <Samu> think i'm gonna remove serviced stations from the score
19:28:29  <Samu> it's not accurate
19:29:51  <Alberth> do better counting?
19:30:11  <Samu> that is openttd counting :(
19:33:33  <Samu> i'm finding more flaws on my scoring method, :(
19:33:39  <Samu> grr
19:35:38  <Samu> right, one is the income, the other is the profit, and I'm doing income/profit
19:35:47  <Samu> gelignAIte gets an efficiency of 124%
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19:37:30  <Alberth> so 1 profit and 100000 income gives me 1000% ?
19:38:05  <Alberth> and 0 profit can't be calculated :)
19:38:53  <Samu> a better way to do it would be (income-runningcost)/profit, but i'm not in the mood to go back and fix everything
19:39:51  <Alberth> not  profit / income ?
19:41:10  <Alberth> although you can't get more profit than income :p
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19:41:22  <Alberth> so you never get above 100%
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20:45:55  <Samu> well, i better start fixing this score
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20:46:16  <Samu> sucks to re-do everything i've done, but it's for the better
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20:54:06  <Samu> there's a miscalculation happening within openttd
20:54:42  <Samu> @calc 98450-48892
20:54:42  <DorpsGek> Samu: 49558
20:55:22  <Samu> @calc 13220+12082+9859+5691+4535+4166
20:55:22  <DorpsGek> Samu: 49553
20:55:29  <Samu> doesn't match
20:56:03  <Samu> income - running cost = profit?
20:57:15  <Samu> "profit last year vehicle 1 + profit last year vehicle 2 + profit last year vehicle n + ... + profit last year vehicle 6" != "income last year - running cost last year"
20:57:27  <Samu> why?
20:58:15  <Rubidium> Samu: add 0.7 + 0.7 + 0.7 and give the sum. Now write that rounded to the nearest integer
20:59:43  <Samu> @cacl 0.7 + 0.7 + 0.7
20:59:51  <Samu> @calc 0.7 + 0.7 + 0.7
20:59:51  <DorpsGek> Samu: 2.1
21:00:05  <Samu> 2
21:01:31  <Rubidium> so... 0.7 + 0.7 + 0.7 = 2.1, but if I write it down roundest to the nearest integer I get 1 + 1 + 1 = 2
21:02:16  <Rubidium> oh bugger... I made a miscalculation... or didn't I?
21:02:33  <Samu> integers suck
21:03:44  <Rubidium> it's not the fault of integers
21:04:16  <Rubidium> it works the same with floating point numbers, e.g. 0.07 + 0.07 + 0.07 = 0.21, but rounded to one decimal it becomes 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 0.2
21:04:25  <Rubidium> it's the rounding that happens
21:04:54  <Rubidium> and for fun... all floating point maths rounds some way or another
21:07:05  <Samu> @calc 49553/49558
21:07:05  <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.999899108116
21:08:06  <Samu> its much easier for me to do income - running cost than calculate all vehicles profits of last year
21:08:29  <Samu> oh well, screw accuracy
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21:18:22  * pinkypie smiles and waves!!! like to chat.....
21:28:50  <Supercheese> *crickets*
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22:47:21  <Samu> i knew this would happen
22:47:39  <Samu> @calc 44608/44609
22:47:39  <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.999977582999
22:47:48  <Samu> 1 vehicle only
22:47:56  <Samu> how could it mismatch :(
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23:43:55  <Wolf01> 'night
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