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Log for #openttd on 23rd October 2016:
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02:00:08  <Ethereal_Shiver> Why do people on some multiplayer games I play build stations with 6 platforms and then have 2 trains serve it?
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02:17:04  <glx> easier than adding platforms later when town has grown
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02:47:42  <sim-al2> Also on multiplayer people might log off for a few hours and then come back
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03:12:50  <sim-al2> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/SNCF_Diesel_Locomotive_67552_%2816495813340%29.jpg
03:13:59  <ST2> trains, what trains - I only see bars on the pic :P
03:19:43  <sim-al2> The page says it's Dieppe, seems that the station closed in 1994 though :(
03:19:48  <sim-al2> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/231-G-558_Dieppe-Maritime.jpg
03:20:44  <sim-al2> Seems to have been a pier station, right next to the port
03:22:29  <sim-al2> Killed by the end of boat trains with the opening of the Channel Tunnel
03:23:50  <sim-al2> No trace of it left because of port renovations, just a stub next to the main station
03:24:33  <sim-al2> Although the main station is really close, easily within walking distance anyway
03:34:05  <sim-al2> Looks like someone brought a camping trailer with them: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Dieppe-Maritime_mai_1973.jpg?uselang=fr
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07:23:57  <Alberth> o/
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07:27:14  <andythenorth> hi
07:33:28  <Alberth> This morning I finally understood what I am missing in my games.
07:34:14  <Alberth> If you look at the game of the guy with the station rating problems, you see he is using a dense industry setting, yet he serves only a few industries
07:35:04  <Alberth> I wondered why, but then realized he is using many more primary industries
07:35:24  <Alberth> that's why he can have this big network with many trains
07:35:46  <Alberth> all transporting the same stuff
07:36:20  <Alberth> I tend to play with a lower industry density, which then means I also get few primary industries
07:36:36  <Alberth> and cannot make a big network like he has
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07:42:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: what map size?
07:42:47  <Alberth> oh, very reasonable, 256x256 or 512x512 or so
07:42:58  <Alberth> I didn't check
07:44:37  <Alberth> but it fitted at the minimap without problems
07:44:48  <Alberth> or major scale reducing
07:45:28  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8123/industry_density.png
07:45:43  <andythenorth> I always use ‘high’ industry
07:46:10  <andythenorth> but that wasn’t enough, so I’ve been using high custom sea values to get more industry density
07:46:25  <Alberth> ah, right :)
07:46:26  <andythenorth> the map in the screenshot is silly though :)
07:46:56  <Alberth> sufficient opportunity for ships :p
07:47:22  <Alberth> but not really any major space for trains
07:47:25  <andythenorth> tends towards very busy rail networks
07:47:35  <andythenorth> I don’t build big junctions
07:47:48  <andythenorth> and usually just 2 track lines
07:47:49  <Alberth> nor do I
07:48:13  <andythenorth> but also I haven’t played a long game for quite some time :P
07:48:18  <Alberth> although connecting lines in every direction does make the junction larger
07:48:18  <andythenorth> they all get boring
07:49:38  <Alberth> well, yeah, once you understand the underlying mechanics well enough for a good network, you can build forever without learning anything interesting
07:50:28  <andythenorth> I also know the mechanics for Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal now
07:50:30  <Alberth> I think people that manage to play it longer look more at the result
07:51:08  <andythenorth> new constraints needed
07:51:16  <Alberth> or a new objective
07:51:25  <andythenorth> either
07:51:46  <Alberth> ever played the freight challenge?
07:51:58  <andythenorth> no, what is it?
07:52:33  <Alberth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=59689
07:53:03  <Alberth> I played it, but apparently, I missed the last step :p
07:54:25  * andythenorth reading
07:54:56  <Alberth> there is also a scenario by Owen, that looks like a nice challenge, lots of water
07:55:04  <andythenorth> oh freight challenge is like a puzzle
07:55:14  <Alberth> there are probably more gems in the scenarios
07:55:18  <Alberth> yeah, it is
07:55:40  <Alberth> doesn't take very long though
07:55:45  <Alberth> but ymmv
07:56:00  <Alberth> depending on how much you want to solve it :)
08:00:09  <andythenorth> reminds me of 2048 for some reason :)
08:02:07  <Alberth> ah, played that for a few weeks too, until I understood how it works :)
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08:02:49  <Alberth> but it's extremely tight space in that challenge
08:05:22  <andythenorth> the goal is ratings?
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08:08:01  <Alberth> I am not sure, I took the goal as "transports all stuff"
08:08:22  <Alberth> but I missed transport of the secondary industries
08:08:53  <Alberth> I'll have to try that one day :)
08:10:25  <andythenorth> perhaps an ‘every town has a goal’ challenge would work
08:11:08  <andythenorth> nice side effect: could choose how long to play by scaling number of towns at map gen
08:12:40  <Alberth> sort of multi-SV ?
08:16:05  <andythenorth> yup
08:16:12  <andythenorth> goals would vary widely
08:16:41  <andythenorth> from ‘fund one industry’ to ‘maintain x transported per year'
08:17:40  <andythenorth> no time limit
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08:25:52  <andythenorth> new Hog
08:31:12  <Alberth> I haven't finished playing the previous one :p
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09:11:10  <Wolf01> Uh... do steam locomotive arrangement 2-0-1 even exist?
09:11:16  <Wolf01> o/ also
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09:49:02  <andythenorth> Wolf01: might be lacking tractive effort that one :P
09:49:24  <Wolf01> Sorry... 2-1-0
09:50:32  <Wolf01> With articulated front truck
09:54:27  <Wolf01> 4-2-0 if you use the Whyte notation
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09:59:11  <andythenorth> yes they exist
10:01:15  <Wolf01> Oh, ok, the Pioneer one... I should forget the axis arrangement and start to count only with the wheel arrangement, it seem more common
10:03:12  <Wolf01> Or even the Berliner
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10:07:57  <Alberth> o/
10:33:47  <andythenorth> Wolf01: just finished the Volvo excavator
10:36:32  <Wolf01> :D
10:36:57  <Wolf01> I would like to build the bucket wheel one, but no space :(
10:40:57  <andythenorth> I have almost no interest in that one :)
10:41:04  <andythenorth> big Technic, dunno
10:41:24  <andythenorth> I want to break up the Unimog even but the kids won’t let me :P
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10:42:12  <Alberth> moin
10:47:12  <frosch123> hola
10:47:42  <Wolf01> Quak
10:48:06  <andythenorth> Road Hog just needs checked for bugs / inconsistencies, then I can release 1.0
10:48:11  <andythenorth> so shall I abandon it?
10:48:13  <andythenorth> o_O
10:48:16  <andythenorth> there is precedent :P
10:49:57  <Wolf01> Yes
10:55:09  <frosch123> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6517 <- new roadtype flag :) no houses allowed
10:55:32  <Wolf01> Bug
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10:57:40  <andythenorth> trams need that flag
10:57:46  <andythenorth> also mining truck roads
10:57:47  <Wolf01> I'm trying to make a little tender for my little train, but I ran out of parts... should I disassemble one of the locomotives?
10:57:56  <andythenorth> Wolf01: lego?
10:57:59  <Wolf01> Yes
10:58:05  <andythenorth> how many engines have you got?
10:58:16  <Wolf01> 8 sets
10:58:22  <andythenorth> yes disassemble
10:58:29  <andythenorth> I like that town screenshot btw
10:58:40  <Wolf01> The streamlined one or the "classic" one?
10:58:50  <andythenorth> you have instructions?
10:59:03  <Wolf01> Yes, but I would like to make my own train
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11:01:38  <andythenorth> if you have instructions it doesn’t matter which one you disassemble :)
11:01:46  <andythenorth> rebuild it later :P
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11:13:29  <Wolf01> Eaters gonna eat
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11:38:29  <Wolf01> Bah, not enough pieces to build locomotive + tender + wagon, I need at least 12 sets
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11:43:02  <Alberth> hmm, scale problem :)  most people think in lego pieces, Wolf01 thinks in lego sets :)
11:43:41  <Wolf01> I'm on another level
11:43:50  <Alberth> clearly :)
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11:45:52  <Alberth> but yeah, I can see that to be useful
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12:16:26  * andythenorth has run out of YT videos to watch
12:19:36  <frosch123> https://xkcd.com/920/
12:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had a "youtube party"
12:20:18  <frosch123> i thought this channel was one
12:21:06  <andythenorth> there are YT parties? :O
12:21:57  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, that xkcd is the only reference i have ever seen
12:22:22  <andythenorth> maybe we should play MP OpenTTD
12:22:46  <andythenorth> there is time for a SV game if we set one up
12:24:36  <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/6cWjL just finished it
12:24:54  <Wolf01> No parts for tender
12:24:56  <andythenorth> Christmas Train
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12:25:06  <Wolf01> Emerald express
12:26:35  <Wolf01> Now I have 14 spare driving wheels...
12:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> then you need to take it apart again and recombine it until you have no parts leftover
12:29:37  <Wolf01> It's hard to add more wheels on a 4-6-2 locomotive
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12:31:09  <andythenorth> make a wagon for spare wheels
12:31:19  <andythenorth> you can use wheels to make a boiler
12:31:56  <andythenorth> or a tender for an oil-burner https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/50701_1012311_Qty1_3.jpg
12:31:58  <Wolf01> I don't have any more truck wheels :(
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12:46:31  <wCPO> How do I enable the speed up feature on a server?
12:51:06  <Wolf01> It's not possible
12:52:21  <wCPO> :/ Thx
12:54:49  <wCPO> Can I go year x other ways than changing starting_year?
12:55:27  <frosch123> you can, if you load the savegame in singleplayer
12:55:30  <Wolf01> Save the game, load it in single player and cheat the year
12:55:37  <frosch123> change the date via the cheats, then save and reload in multiplayer
12:55:44  <Wolf01> Save it again and load the save in multiplayer
12:56:04  <Alberth> in SP you can also use the fast-forward key :)
12:57:33  <wCPO> Complicated :)
12:58:48  <Alberth> in MP, all machines have to run at equal speed, which is certain not to happen with fast-forward
12:59:12  <Alberth> ie you'd have pretty much instant global desync
12:59:48  <wCPO> I see.
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13:07:18  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I am wondering how much power M motors would have at one per wheel :)
13:07:20  <andythenorth> With L motors, it’s a lot of power https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/16131716206/in/photostream/
13:07:25  <andythenorth> but a lot of $£€
13:08:52  <Wolf01> http://www.philohome.com/motors/motorcomp.htm
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13:10:56  <andythenorth> the M is crap
13:10:58  <andythenorth> always has been :)
13:14:56  <frosch123> i only know the first one
13:15:05  <frosch123> the train motor i know isn't even in the list :p
13:16:29  <frosch123> https://bricker.ru/images/parts/x550b.jpg
13:19:07  <andythenorth> classic
13:21:00  <andythenorth> right, let’s see I can trigger any asserts in the NRT fork for Wolf01 :)
13:21:06  <andythenorth> *if
13:24:48  <andythenorth> no assert so far :(
13:34:34  <Wolf01> Good, so removing the asserts mean they won't be triggered ;)
13:36:33  <andythenorth> Wolf01: all construction _seems_ to work
13:36:42  <andythenorth> I haven’t tested multiple company stuff
13:37:03  <andythenorth> but can’t get any asserts for roads, auto-road, tunnel, bridge, depot, or stops
13:37:05  <Wolf01> Stations will build just 1st road sub type for each roadtype
13:37:13  <Wolf01> Maybe depots too
13:37:22  <Wolf01> Bridges should work
13:37:47  <andythenorth> also dynamite and remove tools - can’t trigger anything
13:38:25  <Wolf01> Remove I think just removes the old stuff, but leaves bits in m4 there
13:38:39  <andythenorth> let’s see
13:38:55  <Wolf01> Try using the land info tool
13:39:45  <andythenorth> hmm
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13:44:12  * andythenorth makes a new test grf
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13:49:24  <andythenorth> “Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 82)"
13:50:36  <Wolf01> Wrong label or something
13:51:20  <andythenorth> happens when there are three types in the grf
13:51:38  <Wolf01> Interesting
13:52:07  <Wolf01> I have no clue, I just copy/pasted from rails
13:52:53  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8124/example_roadtype_3_types.grf
14:00:53  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ o_O
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14:02:17  <Wolf01> I think I found the problem
14:02:23  <Wolf01> if (id + numinfo > ROADTYPE_END) {
14:02:47  <Wolf01> It should be ROADSUBTYPE_END
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14:03:40  <andythenorth> if we can get grf loading working with multiple types, I’ll make a bunch of test cases
14:09:57  <Wolf01> Patchy patch committed, and it loads
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14:19:52  <Wolf01> I'll try to draw sprites from roadtypeinfo instead the hardcoded ones
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14:20:01  <Wolf01> So you'll be able to replace even those
14:22:34  <Wolf01> Heh, all the road_land.h stuff...
14:41:45  <andythenorth> Wolf01: confirmed working for me
14:41:51  <andythenorth> now I need a flag to make it tram, not road
14:42:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: propose a var name and number for tram/road flag?  I assume it’s just a bool…
14:45:55  <Wolf01> We said to use 2 different features, if road is 0x18, tram is 0x19
14:48:08  <andythenorth> ah
14:48:08  <andythenorth> ok
14:49:08  <andythenorth> makes sense
14:49:17  * andythenorth will need a bigger nml patch
14:50:38  <frosch123> yep, two features, so that ids are all separate
14:52:14  <Wolf01> With one feature you would be able to define just up to 16 roadtypes (road+tram) => 15 roads and 1 tram, 15 trams 1 road, 8 roads and 8 trams
14:53:21  * andythenorth wonders how not to have a lot of copy-paste nml code
14:54:20  <frosch123> how do vehicles do it?
14:54:41  <andythenorth> I will look, maybe there are functions
14:57:38  <Alberth> can you create or destroy an object from a NOGO script? I'd like to place and remove transmitters, but  I couldn't find a call for it
14:58:33  <andythenorth> @seen Zuu
14:58:33  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Zuu> Perhaps because it was "free" space near ground floor that you couldn't use for offices.
14:59:22  <frosch123> Alberth: given that objects have no name to identify them with, i doubt :)
14:59:40  <Alberth> good idea andy, too bad it didn't fly
15:01:18  <Alberth> hmm, tiles should be able to have them, maybe that gives a clue
15:03:35  <Alberth> nope, can't ask tile type either
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15:08:05  <Alberth> ok, so not possible, and not trivial to add
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15:16:41  <Wolf01> I made a mistake, somewhere
15:16:58  <Wolf01> Like this one RoadTypeIdentifier roadtype_map[ROADTYPE_END][ROADSUBTYPE_END];
15:20:35  <Wolf01> uint8 *roadtypes = AllocaM(uint8, idcount); <- how do I change this one to be able to use the above one?
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15:22:04  <Wolf01> I copied it from RailTypeMapSpriteGroup, but it's not the same
15:22:40  <frosch> that one is the same
15:22:50  <frosch> the next line changes
15:23:25  <frosch> roadtypes[i] = _cur.grffile->roadtypes_map[feature_to_roadtype][buf->ReadByte()];
15:38:34  <Wolf01> Nice,, I forgot a ) or a ] somewhere in the code and now every single file has error...
15:39:28  <frosch> i always forget the ; at the end of class definitions
15:44:59  <Wolf01> Nice, changing a type resolved the error
15:45:15  <Wolf01> Maybe it was used in some template
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16:04:37  <Wolf01> Nice, GetRoadTypes(ti->tile) asserts in DrawRoadBits
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16:10:47  <Wolf01> Wrong type
16:15:05  <Wolf01> Ok, I can draw roadbits from roadtypeinfo now, but I don't know how to load them from grf
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16:28:21  <supermop> hello
16:33:47  <Wolf01> image = _road_sloped_sprites[ti->tileh - 1] + SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET; <- any idea on how I could define this in the roadtypeinfo?
16:33:58  <Wolf01> Just the offset?
16:36:01  <frosch> you only put the SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET into it
16:36:15  <frosch> the _road_slopes_sprites stays the same for every type
16:36:20  <Wolf01> Yes
16:37:19  <frosch> it's similar to "base_sprites" in railtype
16:38:51  <Wolf01> Single sprites are easy, but for roadbits for example I need to understand how they are handled
16:39:43  <frosch> well, you may not do it exactly the same for newgrf types
16:39:59  <Wolf01> Also, it's only in the hardcoded roadtypeinfo the problem, as every grf has it's own sprites
16:40:21  <Wolf01> So most offset are meaningless
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16:41:41  <Wolf01> Maybe they are only set to 0, because if you define more roadtypes you need to use them too
16:42:34  <frosch> hmm, yeah, given that there is only one built-in road and tram type
16:42:46  <frosch> maybe it's not even worth moving those constants to a table
16:43:23  <frosch> just "if newgrf-defined { GetCustomRoadSrpite } else { use offsets }"
16:44:18  <Wolf01> That would be cool, if I'll ever understand how to do it
16:47:15  <frosch> RailTypes have UsesOverlay()
16:47:46  <Wolf01> I don't think this bracnh is in sync
16:48:27  <Wolf01> I don't even know how to do it
16:48:38  <Wolf01> I just cloned andy's repository :P
16:48:58  <andythenorth> that was a clone of openttd trunk :)
16:54:42  <Wolf01> Another thing I don't really understand is tram road bits sprites
16:59:07  <Wolf01> If roads have 0, 0x546, 0x545, 0x53B, 0x544, 0x534, 0x53E, 0x539..., in the code there is (roadbits)-SPR_ROAD_Y, do trambits have low number sprites?
16:59:26  <Wolf01> *roadbits_sprite
17:00:33  <Wolf01> image = _road_tile_sprites_1[tram] - SPR_ROAD_Y; <- "0 - 1332" what is the result?
17:00:48  <Wolf01> Ok, that might not happen
17:01:39  <Wolf01> But 1350 - 1332 is 18
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17:03:20  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you trying to do?
17:03:53  <Wolf01> Generalising the function by moving some hardcoded stuff into the roadtypeinfo
17:05:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if road sprite is selected by SPR_ROAD_BASE + roadbits, then tram sprite should be selected by SPR_TRAM_BASE + trambits
17:07:59  <Wolf01> I think it's because this part of the code does some weird stuff trying to hide the road sprite when there is only tram
17:12:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what you're talking about
17:13:04  <Wolf01> road_cmd.cpp DrawRoadBits()
17:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so, from what i gather, _road_tile_sprites_1 contains sprite IDs from the SPR_ROAD_* range
17:18:24  <Wolf01> Yes
17:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so this operation above calculates the offset from the raw sprite numbers
17:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> presumably to add that offset to something else later
17:18:59  <Wolf01> No, it just draws in the next line
17:19:08  <Wolf01> It seem to draw a terrain sprite
17:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause> image += (road == ROAD_NONE) ? SPR_TRAMWAY_TRAM : SPR_TRAMWAY_OVERLAY;
17:19:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so first you calculate the offset, then you add that offset to _TRAM or _OVERLAY, depending on whether there should be road drawn or not
17:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you could refactor that so that _road_tile_sprites contains the offset directly, this problably needs adjusting in the road drawing code
17:21:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and _road_tile_sprites_1[0] is 0 because there can't be no trackbits
17:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so this value is never read
17:21:56  <Wolf01> Or I could do every single combination like in DrawTrackBits(), but I like more the DrawRoadBits() way
17:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> @base 10 16 1332
17:23:13  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 534
17:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pk7rfjl3t
17:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you could refactor this mapping from roadbits to sprite offsets, because it's probably needed in more places
17:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but the mapping is perfectly logical, 1,2,4 and 8 are the single end bits, 5 and 10 are the straight roads, etc.
17:35:05  <Wolf01> Ok, half of my brain understood what you are saying and even know what to do, but the other half doesn't want to collaborate
17:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you're suffering from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8 :p
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17:37:27  <Wolf01> Yes, exactly, but my halves don't disagree, one of them is just stupid as fuck
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17:42:51  <Wolf01> I need to put that stupid to sleep again, he awakened some hours ago and then I wasn't able to do anytning since...
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17:57:43  <andythenorth> Wolf01: you know how the sprite offsets work, yes? o_O
17:57:53  <andythenorth> and then it’s doing something with adding bits
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18:25:52  <Wolf01> andythenorth, yes, I know how it works, but I have some brain problems this evening
18:26:24  <Wolf01> I think it's better if I sleep for half an hour
18:26:59  * andythenorth has brain problems most days 
18:27:37  <Wolf01> Because when you are writing something and at the same time you yell "wtf am I writing, it doesn't work that way" then something is not right
19:08:23  <argoneus> good evening train friends
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19:21:03  <V453000> Wolf01: smart as fuck https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/5906vp/my_burner_furnace_smelting/
19:28:43  <andythenorth> this way my brain does not work
19:32:39  * Wolf01 too
19:37:11  <andythenorth> bit meta? http://www.qstation.org/ATSF_Pix/Wheels.jpg
19:37:43  <Wolf01> Heh... put these axles on rails and roll them to destination
19:42:16  * andythenorth needs to patch NML
19:57:16  <Wolf01> V453000, the guy who posted the burner furnace smelter must be crazy, do you agree? ;)
20:03:43  <Supercheese> Definitely
20:03:48  <Supercheese> completely NUTS
20:07:55  <andythenorth> bed
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20:09:41  <V453000> =D
20:11:14  <V453000> it's awesome, I love it
20:11:57  <Wolf01> Too much thinking on it, I'm for simple solutions: 1 belt with one side ore and other side fuel
20:12:54  <Wolf01> Or 2 belts and >9000 logistic bots
20:13:17  <V453000> sure
20:13:39  <V453000> using a simple solution is certainly totally fine as well
20:17:08  <Alberth> nn
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22:57:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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