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00:00:09 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 00:00:22 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 00:04:15 *** Jinassi has quit IRC 00:04:27 *** Jinassi has joined #openttd 00:13:49 <Wolf01> 'night 00:13:51 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 00:26:42 *** Jinassi has quit IRC 00:29:27 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 00:33:15 *** Fuco has quit IRC 00:34:45 *** BluesInTheNet has quit IRC 00:47:55 *** tokai has quit IRC 00:50:37 *** tokai has joined #openttd 00:50:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 00:50:52 *** Fatmice has joined #openttd 00:53:45 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 00:55:25 *** Progman has quit IRC 00:58:45 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 01:28:12 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 01:55:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 02:01:00 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 02:01:24 *** threesixty has joined #openttd 02:33:37 *** threesixty has quit IRC 02:34:24 *** threesixty has joined #openttd 02:39:36 *** threesixty has quit IRC 02:40:25 *** threesixty has joined #openttd 03:11:56 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 04:03:04 *** glx has quit IRC 06:31:40 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:45:55 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 06:50:49 *** supermop has joined #openttd 06:57:00 *** supermop_ has quit IRC 07:40:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:56:10 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 07:56:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 07:56:16 <Alberth> moin 07:56:48 <Rubidium> moin 07:58:46 <andythenorth> o/ 08:02:45 <andythenorth> dot layout from graphviz is non-deterministic :D 08:07:20 *** qwebirc10347 has joined #openttd 08:14:40 <Alberth> yep 08:15:25 <Alberth> although, are you sure you give it the exact same file every time? 08:15:53 <Alberth> and not eg, generate the file from a Python dictionary, which stores its data in a non-deterministic way? 08:19:22 <andythenorth> it _seems_ to be deterministic for me locally, but bundles varies 08:19:35 <andythenorth> might be different python version, different graphviz, different xyz :) 08:29:36 *** Progman has joined #openttd 08:41:01 *** Fatmice has quit IRC 08:41:37 <andythenorth> how could I group specialty metals? 08:41:42 <andythenorth> nickel, zinc, copper etc 08:41:54 <peter1138> morning 08:42:04 * peter1138 ponders getting the dev tools out 08:42:06 <andythenorth> which are used for (1) making alloys with iron / steel (2) plating (3) tubes and stuff 08:42:10 <andythenorth> lo peter1138 08:42:18 <andythenorth> doing subways? o_O 08:42:20 <peter1138> or i could just do the normal thing and go on a bike ride 08:42:43 <peter1138> nah i usually just update my ancient patches and then leave them to stagnate again 08:42:53 <peter1138> rgb company colours! 08:43:14 <peter1138> remember when i had working custom bridge heads once... 08:43:49 <andythenorth> :D 08:53:24 <andythenorth> “Base metals” ? 08:53:25 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_metal 08:53:32 <andythenorth> I need zinc, nickel, copper 08:57:22 <Alberth> perhaps make an invisible connection between them? 08:58:31 <Alberth> although, in general, giving dot more freedom produces less bad results 09:00:00 <andythenorth> I think I’ll leave dot to do its thing :) 09:01:33 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 09:01:43 <andythenorth> too much about vehicle parts 09:02:26 <andythenorth> also I added grain and livestock for food and alcohol 09:02:36 <andythenorth> but maybe that’s not needed 09:03:29 <andythenorth> the flow should be quite linear in this economy, but currently it’s spidering 09:09:22 *** Progman has quit IRC 09:14:05 <Alberth> port shouldn't take vehicles? 09:14:28 <andythenorth> maybe 09:15:25 <andythenorth> the port-type industries are usually where the hax happen to make an economy work without all cargos/industries 09:15:34 <andythenorth> in this economy, they’re not helping at the moment 09:28:41 *** Jinassi has joined #openttd 09:35:42 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 09:35:49 <andythenorth> previously http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/v6175-1254/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 09:37:15 <andythenorth> hmm no source for alcohol 09:37:53 *** BluesInTheNet has joined #openttd 09:41:26 <Alberth> it's not possible to leave it out, apparently :) 09:48:51 <andythenorth> I might drop it :P 09:49:23 <andythenorth> seems a bit unfair, steelworkers probably like a drink 10:12:53 *** Klanticus has joined #openttd 10:29:30 *** Arveen has joined #openttd 10:30:48 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 10:36:07 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 10:36:19 <Wolf01> Moin 10:40:35 *** aard has joined #openttd 10:44:07 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 10:56:22 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 10:56:26 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 10:56:34 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 11:03:31 <frosch123> until slag/steel it looks good 11:03:35 <frosch123> then it turns weird 11:04:05 <frosch123> 3 sources for farm supplies in an economy with hardly farms seems off :) 11:04:29 <frosch123> i would think almost all the steel industries would use eng supplies 11:05:45 <andythenorth> could drop slag as a source of fmsp 11:05:56 <andythenorth> I thought there would be more farm industries when I added that 11:06:09 <frosch123> i would keep slag, and drop the lime 11:07:21 * andythenorth pushed that 11:07:54 <andythenorth> drop alcohol? or import it? 11:08:46 <frosch123> alcohol from port, base metals from bulk terminal, oil from liquid terminal 11:09:01 <andythenorth> I am thinking approx. same 11:09:09 <andythenorth> but I have nothing to deliver to liquid terminal 11:09:12 <andythenorth> so no prod. boost 11:09:31 <frosch123> farm supplies for export? 11:09:33 *** Cals has joined #openttd 11:09:39 <andythenorth> liquid tractors? o_O 11:09:42 <frosch123> hmm, but makes no sense for liquid terminal given the source industries 11:09:54 <andythenorth> I am thinking to expand ‘chemicals’ a bit 11:10:04 <andythenorth> splitting out ‘plastic’ or something 11:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> fertilizer is usually powdered, not liquid 11:10:05 <andythenorth> not sure 11:10:19 <andythenorth> I don’t know much about chemical industry 11:11:03 <frosch123> alcohol from port, oil from bulk terminal, drop base metals and add aluminium chain instead? 11:11:28 <andythenorth> bitumen from oil -> + slag -> asphalt 11:11:46 <frosch123> asphalt sounds like builindg materials 11:12:58 <andythenorth> it is 11:13:03 <andythenorth> I think it’s too detailed 11:13:19 <frosch123> chemical plant / oil refinery looks redundant 11:13:28 <andythenorth> yeah 11:13:38 <andythenorth> unless I add plastics or specific petrochemicals 11:13:39 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical 11:13:54 <andythenorth> but I don’t see the point of either, it’s Steeltown, not Petroltown 11:14:11 <andythenorth> Chemical Refinery just looks cool :P 11:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of roads around here were paved with some kind of slag-cobble, but it turned out to be very slippery when wet, after the initial grippy surface wore off 11:14:26 <andythenorth> could import chemicals and fuel 11:14:28 <andythenorth> easier 11:15:05 <andythenorth> I need some liquid cargo for export 11:15:14 <frosch123> alcohol :) 11:15:29 <andythenorth> plausible 11:15:33 <andythenorth> but from what? Grain? 11:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> cut the liquid terminal, and add cargo to bulk terminal? 11:15:41 <andythenorth> I did already :) 11:15:46 <andythenorth> now I’m proposing reversing that 11:15:48 <andythenorth> as is FR^2 11:15:52 <andythenorth> oops frosch123 11:15:55 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 11:16:02 <FR^2> hehe 11:16:17 <andythenorth> sorry :P 11:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sausagefinger-tab 11:16:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess engineering supplies for liquid terminal 11:16:53 <frosch123> they just get machinery to unload stuff 11:16:58 <frosch123> nothing for real export 11:17:03 <frosch123> it's like a mine 11:17:06 <andythenorth> plausible 11:17:29 <andythenorth> pipes? 11:17:30 <andythenorth> :P 11:17:37 <frosch123> :p 11:17:44 <andythenorth> as I cut out more cargos, it’s tempting to add more steel types 11:18:11 <frosch123> i still like aluminium 11:18:25 <andythenorth> pipe trains always look good http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/5631.jpg 11:18:32 <andythenorth> aluminium could be imported now 11:18:41 <andythenorth> or bauxite 11:18:42 <frosch123> also a second farm would be cool to dump more of the slag 11:18:49 <andythenorth> I didn’t want an alu. smelter 11:18:51 <frosch123> and to supply alcohol somehow 11:19:21 <Jinassi> It's awfully nice seeing more interaction with ships, but how does that correlate with ship pathfinder? Even a 100 ships can wreck a gameplay, if orders not set right/no buoys/not enough buyos? 11:20:27 <Jinassi> Has there been any update adressing that? 11:20:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: I want to add an engine plant: that would be iron + base metals, and that’s where aluminium could also be used 11:21:00 <frosch123> what exactly are base metals? 11:22:09 <andythenorth> nickel, copper, chromium (and lead, but that’s irrelevant here) 11:22:20 <andythenorth> they go into alloys and for plating 11:22:32 * andythenorth had to look it up :P 11:22:43 <andythenorth> nickel was too specific, as was copper 11:22:53 <frosch123> ok :) 11:23:30 <andythenorth> I’ve got a better graph, just waiting for bundles 11:29:10 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 11:29:20 <andythenorth> interesting how different the dot output is on bundles vs. locally 11:32:20 <frosch123> that graph is complete, isn't it? 11:32:41 <frosch123> no cargo without producer or accepter 11:35:08 <frosch123> i think the graph looks good, but it has too much farm supplies and to little eng supplies, compared to which industries need it 11:35:21 <frosch123> how about adding engsup as output to metal workshop? 11:35:34 <frosch123> and droppping farmsup from machine shop? 11:35:37 <andythenorth> could do 11:35:53 <andythenorth> or adding more fmsp consumers 11:36:28 <frosch123> well, maybe shipping them to the bulk terminal is fine 11:36:58 <andythenorth> tractors are big in pittsburgh / cologne :P 11:38:10 <frosch123> rename hotel to adventure farm and make it accept fmsp? 11:38:19 * andythenorth wondered about distinguishing steel coil, steel bar etc 11:38:23 <andythenorth> probably not 11:38:44 <frosch123> you already have galvanised steel :) 11:40:56 <frosch123> maybe a forest for fmsp? wood could go to builders yard and metal workshop 11:42:09 <andythenorth> maybe 11:42:19 <andythenorth> the building materials lacks lumber 11:42:42 <andythenorth> there was a forest, but I removed it when I removed iron works 11:43:49 <andythenorth> original plan I made had recyclables http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#recycling_plant 11:44:30 <andythenorth> I guess weapons factory is out? :P 11:44:40 <andythenorth> spaceport? 11:44:42 <andythenorth> shipyard? 11:45:23 <frosch123> shipyard is like a port without output cargos 11:45:35 <andythenorth> scrap metal? 11:45:45 <frosch123> spaceport is only useful for accepting nuclear waste 11:46:36 <frosch123> shipyard would accep steel, wood, vehicle parts? 11:46:37 <andythenorth> oil rig fab yard? 11:46:53 <andythenorth> yes, vehicle parts for ships :) 11:46:59 <andythenorth> engines, tyres to hang on the side :) 11:48:57 <andythenorth> I considered a few other things that didn’t make it 11:49:05 <andythenorth> - electrical machinery 11:49:18 <frosch123> make the metal workshop produce mechanics? vehicle factory uses mechanics instead of chemicals? 11:49:59 <frosch123> shipyard then uses steel, wood and mechaincs 11:50:42 <frosch123> or possibly building materials instead of wood 11:51:00 <andythenorth> considered also something like turbines + wind farm components 11:51:03 <andythenorth> exporting those 11:51:24 <frosch123> just needs a better name for "mechanics" 11:51:38 <andythenorth> mechanical components 11:51:43 <andythenorth> overlaps with vehicle parts though 11:52:23 <frosch123> not that much 11:52:31 <frosch123> very different input cargos 11:52:37 <andythenorth> could do body parts and mechanical parts 11:52:50 <andythenorth> powertrain components 11:54:02 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_auto_parts 11:57:24 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t mind dropping chemicals from vehicle factory, it’s too prevalent 11:58:27 *** Alberth has left #openttd 11:59:57 <frosch123> so, body parts and powertrain parts? 12:00:19 <frosch123> powertrain parts also being used by shipyard? 12:00:28 <andythenorth> body parts sounds like stolen kidneys, but yes 12:00:47 <andythenorth> so does the vehicle factory drop galvanised steel (goes to body plant)? Or does it drop chemicals? 12:00:59 <frosch123> drop chemicals 12:01:14 <frosch123> there are already many chemical destinations and only once source 12:01:26 <frosch123> and the chemicals/paint thing seems a bit far fetched 12:05:09 * andythenorth doing it 12:17:52 <andythenorth> hmm 12:18:12 <andythenorth> graph would be neater if a metals terminal supplied base metal, also then aluminium 12:18:13 <andythenorth> http://www.nhs.be/ckfinder/userfiles/images/coil-terminal/coil-terminal-02_0.jpg 12:18:18 <andythenorth> http://us.123rf.com/450wm/libertos/libertos1511/libertos151100185/48265452-nakhodka-russia--circa-september-2015-loading-metal-in-cargo-ship-at-the-port-of-nakhodka-it-is-the-.jpg?ver=6 12:24:38 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 12:25:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ needs either a metals terminal, or an ore dock (and maybe aluminium chain added) 12:25:25 <andythenorth> port could provide food also, there would be very little food, which is bad for arctic / tropic 12:25:27 <Wolf01> andythenorth, ever considered to do somethin like ECS? 12:25:35 <andythenorth> yes, and no 12:26:25 <andythenorth> most of the FIRS game for me is designing economies 12:26:47 <andythenorth> modular systems remove all the interesting design questions, and substitute very boring design questions 12:27:03 <andythenorth> it’s just a technical exercise of ensuring compatibility for all combinations of module 12:27:31 <frosch123> no shipyard? 12:27:45 <andythenorth> not yet, got to go the supermarket in a minute :D 12:28:01 *** Klanticus has quit IRC 12:28:04 <andythenorth> airplane factory also? (It’s planned for a ‘seattle’ economy anyway) 12:28:26 <frosch123> seems to be the same as shipyard wrt input/output 12:28:38 <andythenorth> outputs ‘airplane bodies’ 12:28:42 <andythenorth> they go somewhere off-map 12:28:43 <frosch123> shipyard appear more visually inteesting to me 12:29:05 <andythenorth> o_O http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o40zNZ9B26s/UETriT5HI1I/AAAAAAAABIw/Hu4VMlhw-ro/s1600/aaaa-725727.jpg 12:29:41 <andythenorth> limits the game to post 1930s or so 12:29:44 <andythenorth> shipyard doesn't 12:29:55 <frosch123> and pre 2000 12:30:05 <frosch123> only small planes fit on a train 12:30:33 <andythenorth> :) 12:31:14 * andythenorth wonders about aluminium: import it, or smelt it? 12:31:34 <frosch123> if you add it, then smelt it 12:31:41 <frosch123> import bauxite, like manganese 12:32:00 <andythenorth> might add an ore terminal 12:32:11 <andythenorth> dunno what that accepts 12:32:21 <andythenorth> planned for australia / brazil economy also :P 12:32:24 <andythenorth> oh such plans :) 12:32:52 *** Kwak has joined #openttd 12:33:12 <andythenorth> bauxite + aluminium puts it at 29 cargos 12:33:16 <andythenorth> that’s probably enough 12:33:42 <andythenorth> import explosives from port? 12:34:01 <frosch123> and deliver to? 12:34:01 *** Kwak has quit IRC 12:34:23 <frosch123> and since when do you try to fill all cargo slots? 12:35:03 <andythenorth> I am trying to keep to less than 30 12:35:10 <andythenorth> explosives -> supply yard -> ensp 12:35:21 <andythenorth> no need 12:35:45 <frosch123> explosives only work for mines, and you are importing all the mine stuff 12:35:58 <frosch123> engsups is for heavy industry in this economy 12:36:09 <andythenorth> pipe? 12:36:18 * andythenorth considers pipe cargo, looks cool in wagons 12:36:34 <frosch123> so steel plate and steel pipe? 12:37:06 <frosch123> does not really work together with the galvanized stuff 12:37:19 <andythenorth> nah 12:37:24 <andythenorth> it would have to be a pipe mill 12:37:33 <andythenorth> steel -> pipe -> liquids terminal 12:38:00 <frosch123> i guess is also fine :) 12:38:06 <andythenorth> bit silly 12:38:08 <andythenorth> but might work 12:41:37 <andythenorth> biab 12:41:38 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 12:41:47 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 12:42:02 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 12:50:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 13:35:18 *** aard has quit IRC 13:41:42 *** Arveen is now known as Fishbot 13:42:20 *** Gja has joined #openttd 13:42:34 *** Arveen has joined #openttd 13:42:39 *** Arveen has quit IRC 13:43:10 *** SpComb has quit IRC 13:46:31 *** SpComb has joined #openttd 13:57:53 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 14:12:52 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 14:21:56 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 14:23:14 <andythenorth> ho ho https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1179682#p1179682 14:24:08 <andythenorth> is PIPE countable bulk? o_O 14:24:12 <andythenorth> or just piece goods? 14:26:39 <andythenorth> and is the unit tonnes, or metres? 14:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> piece 14:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> think like wood logs 14:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so, goes on stake wagons 14:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and tonnes should work 14:30:28 <andythenorth> wood can be countable bulk :P 14:30:30 <andythenorth> but yes 14:30:32 <andythenorth> it’s piece 14:30:40 <andythenorth> and measuring it by length isn’t funny 14:31:21 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 14:31:33 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 14:32:41 <andythenorth> where’s Muelheim? http://www.bahnbilder.de/1024/221-116-februar-1987-muelheim-491331.jpg 14:33:51 *** DDR has quit IRC 14:34:48 <andythenorth> also http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/medias/album/images/Terberg-pipe-carrier-8x8.jpg 14:41:01 *** Cals has quit IRC 14:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's lots of Mühlheims, but that one is probably in the Ruhr-area 14:47:56 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 14:48:09 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 14:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> https://goo.gl/maps/efpZrUF41QH2 14:53:19 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 14:53:30 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 14:55:00 <andythenorth> fits this economy :) 14:55:05 <andythenorth> for whatever that’s worth (not much) 15:01:12 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 15:01:23 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 15:05:59 *** Jinassi2 has joined #openttd 15:05:59 *** Jinassi is now known as Guest129 15:05:59 *** Jinassi2 is now known as Jinassi 15:11:20 *** Guest129 has quit IRC 15:16:07 <andythenorth> frosch123: ‘pipe’ makes a mess of the graph…is it worth it? I want it solely for the cargo graphics :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 15:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> can't say anything about that 15:21:56 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 15:25:45 *** aard has joined #openttd 15:30:12 <andythenorth> think I have to delete it 15:31:05 *** crabster has joined #openttd 15:31:05 *** lobstar has quit IRC 15:32:09 <frosch123> base metals is missing from metal workshop 15:32:20 <frosch123> did you decide against a shipyard? 15:32:39 <frosch123> not sure the pipe mill should get base metals 15:34:15 <andythenorth> I need to add the shipyard :) 15:34:23 <andythenorth> pipe mill now produces ENSP and BDMT 15:34:32 <frosch123> i like the pipe cargo 15:34:37 <andythenorth> hmm 15:34:43 <andythenorth> ok I’ll revert my delete 15:34:45 <frosch123> the basemetal adds the chaos 15:35:06 <andythenorth> could can that 15:35:08 <andythenorth> just steel 15:35:43 <andythenorth> no cupro-nickel pipes here 15:36:07 *** Jinassi2 has joined #openttd 15:36:07 *** Jinassi is now known as Guest136 15:36:07 *** Jinassi2 is now known as Jinassi 15:36:55 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 15:38:50 <andythenorth> this economy has an annoying number of coastal industries :) 15:39:13 <andythenorth> game will build them in tiny lakes :) 15:40:41 <frosch123> yes, it's different to the other economies in having very few primary industries 15:40:59 <frosch123> which is good, since it makes it different for playing other than looking different 15:42:15 *** Guest136 has quit IRC 15:43:50 <andythenorth> one day I will find a fix to that coastal industry problem 15:44:53 *** lucy has joined #openttd 15:45:33 <andythenorth> so what does shipyard make? o_O 15:45:36 <andythenorth> ENSP? Scrap? 15:45:41 <andythenorth> Some kind of Marine Supplies? 15:51:14 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 15:56:52 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 15:56:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 15:56:58 <Alberth> o/ 16:00:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: ok you get aluminium 16:01:06 <andythenorth> Alcoa is a big aluminium company, they started in Pittsburgh 16:01:17 <andythenorth> ‘Steeltown’ is Pittsburgh (crossed with the Ruhr) 16:01:19 <andythenorth> so eh :P 16:01:31 <andythenorth> also they made the beer cans for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_City_Brewing_Company 16:06:15 *** Jinassi2 has joined #openttd 16:06:15 *** Jinassi is now known as Guest139 16:06:15 *** Jinassi2 is now known as Jinassi 16:08:37 <frosch123> shipyard is black hole 16:09:20 <andythenorth> purely? 16:09:25 <frosch123> though if you add marine supplies, you could deliver them to all the other ports 16:09:39 <andythenorth> he yes 16:09:46 <frosch123> might be more interesting than the normal engsups 16:09:47 <andythenorth> odd concept, might work 16:09:59 <andythenorth> I’ve pushed, waiting for bundles again 16:10:12 <andythenorth> aluminium smelter messes up the graph, because it needs chemicals :P 16:10:34 <frosch123> Wolf01: what nrt stuff are you working on? i don't want to work on the same :) 16:10:50 <Wolf01> Nothing atm 16:10:52 <frosch123> i would add the savegame conversion for roadsubtypes otherwise 16:11:02 <Wolf01> +1 16:11:57 <Wolf01> I only implemented part of the patch you linked me yesterday, but I stopped when I noticed it needed the conversion 16:12:05 *** Guest139 has quit IRC 16:15:23 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 16:17:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 16:20:47 <frosch123> vehicle parts to shipyard? 16:21:55 <andythenorth> dunno, seemed like they’d want glass and stuff 16:22:13 <andythenorth> happy to change it 16:22:32 <andythenorth> ach, aluminium plant has chemicals to nobble it in extreme 16:22:48 <andythenorth> otherwise it’s much more efficient than steel mill at converting scrap metal 16:22:51 <frosch123> build materials instead of vehicle parts to shipyard? 16:23:06 <andythenorth> ha, that is plausible 16:23:18 <andythenorth> especially if it’s a marine yard that produces rigs and stuff as well 16:23:22 <andythenorth> like the forum suggestion 16:24:34 <frosch123> split engsups into engsup/marinesup? or keep it as it? 16:24:39 <frosch123> looks done otherweise 16:25:03 <andythenorth> I am thinking split it 16:25:10 <andythenorth> to see if it makes any sense 16:25:26 <andythenorth> I see nothing else to add, but wonder what can be removed... 16:25:53 <andythenorth> machine shop builds tractors, shipyard builds tugs 16:26:10 <andythenorth> aluminium smelter is bothering me 16:27:01 <frosch123> you could drop vehicles and turn them into goods 16:27:08 <frosch123> then you can also drop vehicle dealer and petrol 16:27:42 <frosch123> you can always drop the hotel 16:29:46 <andythenorth> hotel seems to be undeletable 16:29:53 <andythenorth> whenever I delete it, I add it back :P 16:30:08 <andythenorth> I think I depend on it too much for pax when building first route 16:30:15 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_technology 16:30:27 <andythenorth> MATE? 16:30:33 <andythenorth> MASP seems ugly :P 16:30:37 <andythenorth> SHSP also 16:30:47 <andythenorth> WASP? 16:31:06 <frosch123> why not masp? 16:34:27 <andythenorth> just sounds ugly in my head :) 16:36:23 *** Jinassi2 has joined #openttd 16:36:23 *** Jinassi is now known as Guest146 16:36:23 *** Jinassi2 is now known as Jinassi 16:41:50 *** Guest146 has quit IRC 16:42:00 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 16:42:50 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 16:58:05 <andythenorth> so err…what’s the unit for marine supplies? 16:58:07 <andythenorth> crates? 16:58:12 <andythenorth> and what if it’s a ship? :P 16:58:34 <frosch123> piece? 16:58:50 <andythenorth> vehicles are just ’n vehicles' 16:59:18 <frosch123> i guess crates are the only thing that makes sense to transport 16:59:32 <frosch123> you don't put ships on trucks 16:59:36 <frosch123> at least not real ships 17:02:30 <andythenorth> I’ve pushed, waiting on bundles some more 17:05:34 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 17:06:31 *** Jinassi2 has joined #openttd 17:06:31 *** Jinassi is now known as Guest149 17:06:31 *** Jinassi2 is now known as Jinassi 17:08:26 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 17:08:37 <andythenorth> I tried quicklime -> aluminium plant, it’s a bit of a mess 17:08:44 <frosch123> you need to add MASP to the graph script :) 17:08:50 <andythenorth> ach yes 17:09:12 <andythenorth> Extreme aluminium smelter merges both bauxite refining and scrap melting 17:09:21 <andythenorth> this economy should just pick one or the other 17:09:35 <Wolf01> Petroleum Fuels to Vehicle Dealer? Why? 17:09:45 <andythenorth> yeah, I wonder if petrol could be dropped entirely? 17:09:47 <frosch123> remove engsups from the ports now? 17:10:15 <andythenorth> I’ll try it 17:10:26 <andythenorth> main input to smelting aluminium is refined bauxite (aluminia), and some cryolite (wiki that) 17:10:31 <andythenorth> + loads of electricity 17:10:40 <andythenorth> and some base metal for tuning the resulting alloy 17:12:05 *** Guest149 has quit IRC 17:22:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 17:22:54 <andythenorth> dot has done a nice job there 17:23:01 <andythenorth> steel from bottom left, foundation of economy 17:23:08 <andythenorth> over to town and export 17:23:37 <andythenorth> pipe has got a bit isolated 17:23:44 <andythenorth> looping it back to liquids terminal made a mess :P 17:23:49 <Wolf01> frosch123, working on something else than saveload? 17:24:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: the graph script has a list of the supplies labels 17:25:05 <andythenorth> I have just changed it :) 17:25:18 <andythenorth> much better 17:25:20 <frosch123> Wolf01: i pushed some stuff earlier 17:25:44 <Wolf01> Already fetched those 17:25:45 <frosch123> though you may need a new newgrf 17:26:18 <Wolf01> I'm going to remove the old Set/GetRoadTypes() 17:26:28 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/example_roadtype_and_tramtype.grf 17:26:56 <frosch123> Wolf01: i am about to remove them :) 17:27:01 <Wolf01> Oh ok 17:27:13 <frosch123> that's part of the savegame conversion 17:27:20 <Wolf01> Good 17:27:44 * andythenorth wonders if designing economies to make a nice dot graph is wise :) 17:27:45 <frosch123> earlier i wondered about the autoreplace gui 17:27:55 <frosch123> for trains there is a selection of railtypes 17:27:55 <Wolf01> You already simplified RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile too? 17:28:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's not the worst thing if players understand the flow :) 17:28:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: but definitely fix the masp before judging :) 17:29:58 <Wolf01> <frosch123> earlier i wondered about the autoreplace gui <- yeah, a big mess, I think we should also split trams from there, as you can't even convert a bus to tram in vanilla 17:30:57 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 17:31:38 <andythenorth> I think that’s worth me play-testing now 17:31:49 <andythenorth> there is probably some back-and-forth with goods, and so on 17:31:56 <frosch123> bulk terminal gets two supplies, intentional? 17:32:03 <andythenorth> yes, we’re over-supplied for FMSP 17:32:17 <andythenorth> relative to demand 17:32:31 <andythenorth> the ports have quite high supply requirements (640t for gung ho) 17:33:05 <andythenorth> that’s why I left ENSP on the ore terminal initially :) 17:33:23 <frosch123> ah, you moved pipe to shipyard 17:33:31 <frosch123> that's why the graph got simpler :) 17:34:04 <frosch123> also add pipe to builders yard? 17:34:28 <frosch123> it's a bit weird that you can send steel to shipyard via and not via pipe mill 17:34:52 <frosch123> but it would be fine if pipe had another destination 17:36:39 *** Jinassi2 has joined #openttd 17:36:39 *** Jinassi is now known as Guest153 17:36:39 *** Jinassi2 is now known as Jinassi 17:36:43 <andythenorth> I think it’s a bit of a mess right now 17:37:53 <andythenorth> I only want the cargo because it might look good on trains :) 17:40:43 <andythenorth> builders yard even has pipe sprites :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#builders_yard 17:43:10 *** Guest153 has quit IRC 17:45:50 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 17:49:27 <andythenorth> I think pipe has to go 17:51:47 <andythenorth> it can be building materials 17:52:12 <andythenorth> pipe can re-appear in some oil-based economy :P 17:52:16 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:52:29 <frosch123> you mean, keep pipe mill, but make it produce building materials? 17:52:39 <frosch123> and add building materials to shipyard? 17:53:06 <andythenorth> yes 17:53:10 <andythenorth> all of those things 17:53:21 <andythenorth> in another economy, import pipe, and use it for vehicles there 17:53:23 <frosch123> replace vehicles with goods, and drop the port? 17:53:31 <frosch123> and drop vehicle dealer 17:53:39 <andythenorth> nah, I want vehicle cargo sprites :) 17:53:40 <frosch123> oh, no alcohol then :p 17:53:45 <andythenorth> and I won’t provide this chain other place 17:53:47 <andythenorth> places * 17:56:01 <andythenorth> could be ‘rolling mill’ not ‘pipe mill’ 17:56:04 <andythenorth> but eh 17:56:07 <andythenorth> potato / potato 18:01:43 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 18:04:25 <frosch123> :) 18:06:47 *** Jinassi2 has joined #openttd 18:06:47 *** Jinassi is now known as Guest154 18:06:47 *** Jinassi2 is now known as Jinassi 18:10:37 *** Guest154 has quit IRC 18:33:27 <andythenorth> better than http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/v6174-1252/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 18:33:47 <andythenorth> and http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/v6174-1253/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 18:35:10 *** DDR has joined #openttd 18:35:21 *** ConductorCat has joined #openttd 18:41:01 *** ConductCat has quit IRC 18:41:02 *** Jinassi has quit IRC 18:42:01 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/v6174-1253/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic 18:42:05 <andythenorth> drop the farm? 18:42:19 <andythenorth> then make Farm Supplies ‘Logging Supplies’? 18:43:38 <Rubidium> make it a server farm and use it to transport information 18:43:55 <andythenorth> ha ha 18:44:03 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:44:03 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:44:03 <Rubidium> https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/ 18:44:08 <andythenorth> that is a whole economy, baseset and grfs :P 18:45:48 * andythenorth was envisaging a network hardware baseset :P 18:45:51 <andythenorth> not sneakernet :) 18:47:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: farm supplies for forest is fine 18:48:07 <andythenorth> bugs me that fertiliser doesn’t go to farm 18:48:16 <andythenorth> also…finland kills 70k-80k moose per year 18:48:23 <andythenorth> and harvests forest fruits and stuff 18:48:31 <andythenorth> so forest -> food? o_O 18:48:52 <andythenorth> or hunting grounds -> food 18:49:10 <andythenorth> no way to increase the output :) 18:49:22 <andythenorth> unless logging supplies includes hunting gear 18:49:30 <frosch123> sounds like a food chain 18:50:23 <frosch123> hunter, rancher, meat grinder, cook, fast food, frozen lasagna, horse meat recycling 18:51:08 <frosch123> could be your first toyland economy :) 18:51:19 <frosch123> ice cream, burgers and such 18:52:15 <frosch123> but might be more a V thing 18:52:23 <andythenorth> you have just described the urban economy I planned :P 18:52:47 <andythenorth> also I thought a florist maybe? o_O 18:52:47 <andythenorth> http://www.brothers-brick.com/2016/11/25/more-power-to-the-flower/ 18:52:55 <andythenorth> air-freight flowers 18:52:59 <andythenorth> or dutch tulips 18:53:00 <frosch123> netherland economy? 18:53:04 <frosch123> he 18:53:09 <andythenorth> coffee, tulips 18:53:14 <andythenorth> cannabis 18:53:20 *** aard has quit IRC 18:53:38 <andythenorth> capitalism 18:53:44 <andythenorth> hmm capitalism isn’t really a cargo 18:53:57 <frosch123> benelux economy? 18:54:03 * andythenorth ponders a stupid conceptual economy 18:54:23 <frosch123> then you can add cacao, chocolate, wafers 18:54:23 <andythenorth> transporting ideas to and from universities, governments, marketplaces, newspapers 18:54:34 <andythenorth> we never did slaves :P 18:54:37 <frosch123> ideas are stupid 18:54:46 <frosch123> everyone has ideas 18:54:49 <andythenorth> I have been reading a book again about how much slaving Europeans did around the North Sea 18:54:57 <frosch123> but it requires work to turn them real 18:55:14 <frosch123> viking economy? 18:55:52 <frosch123> ships, beer -> exploration camp -> slaves, food 18:57:03 <andythenorth> ‘tribute’ 18:57:18 <andythenorth> raiders -> monasteries -> tribute 18:58:04 <andythenorth> also the Hanseatic league used to blockade the winter grain into Bergen, if the king of Norway had annoyed them 18:58:14 <andythenorth> and Norwegian Stockfish was a major food commodity 18:58:17 <andythenorth> such books :P 19:00:55 *** aard has joined #openttd 19:07:21 <andythenorth> 1. Logging Supplies -> Forest -> Wood. Hunting Grounds -> Food (no production boost) 19:07:34 <andythenorth> 2. Logging & hunting Supplies -> Forest -> Wood, Food 19:08:23 <frosch123> don't add too many supply types :) 19:08:31 <frosch123> they are all just boxes 19:08:33 <andythenorth> Yes 19:09:01 <andythenorth> 3. Farm Supplies -> Forest -> Wood. Hunting Grounds -> Good (no production boost) 19:09:12 <andythenorth> Food / Good /s 19:09:33 <andythenorth> don’t really want Logging Supplies, it’s messy 19:10:12 <andythenorth> we need sea ice 19:10:17 <andythenorth> then there can be a fishing hole 19:12:24 <andythenorth> http://seenandsaid.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/ice-fishing-huts-by-richard-johnson.html 19:13:43 <andythenorth> is ice watertypes? o_O 19:24:53 *** Mazur has quit IRC 19:25:28 *** Mazur has joined #openttd 19:27:41 <Wolf01> Umh, SceneFactory or SceneProvider? I already know (how to build) the scenes, I only need to build them on request 19:46:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: roadtype :) 19:47:16 <frosch123> the ship crossing works different to rail crossing though. while rail crossings are closed some time before the train passes, ship crossing are closed some time after the ship crossed 20:23:18 *** aard has quit IRC 20:25:45 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:26:37 <andythenorth> I was thinking of ice water, hovercraft only :P 20:27:01 <andythenorth> or ice sailing rigs 20:28:11 <V453000> andythenorth going wild? 20:28:26 <andythenorth> apparently 20:29:40 <frosch123> Wolf01: pushed the savegame conversion 20:29:45 <frosch123> m7 6..7 is no longer used 20:29:45 <Wolf01> +1 20:29:56 <frosch123> GetRoadTypes is still present with some compatibility code 20:30:06 <frosch123> it's still used in many places 20:30:22 <frosch123> if you have savegames from the earlier patch, they are likely broken now 20:30:36 <Wolf01> \o/ 20:31:23 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt3.sav <- you can have my save though :) 20:37:02 <andythenorth> yay 20:52:32 <andythenorth> hunting camp probably works 20:52:42 <andythenorth> no supply boost = ‘interesting’ 20:53:04 <andythenorth> I should have consolidated a single ‘Supplies’ for smaller economies maybe 20:53:05 <andythenorth> but eh 20:53:16 <frosch123> night 20:53:19 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:56:39 <andythenorth> hmm 20:56:46 <andythenorth> a moose is 500kg 20:57:46 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 20:57:47 <andythenorth> and Sweden shoots 8,000 of them per month, averaged 20:58:16 <andythenorth> 50t / month food is probably about right 21:00:03 <Wolf01> I need to fix scenario editor, crashed badly when opening the road toolbar 21:00:37 <andythenorth> is it all separate code there? 21:01:19 <Wolf01> Not really, it shares a lot with normal game, but some initializations must be done there too, and I think I didn't put them into the editor code 21:02:22 <andythenorth> I see :) 21:02:34 <andythenorth> hmm, can I detect rivers 21:02:41 * andythenorth considers fish nets for river fish 21:02:46 <andythenorth> salmon and such 21:02:50 <andythenorth> very arctic :) 21:03:35 <andythenorth> http://www.kitkanviisas.fi/en/fishers/fishing-methods/31-fyke-net-fishing 21:08:49 <Wolf01> https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/reti-da-pesca-sul-fiume-50307276.jpg <- we use these here 21:10:06 <Wolf01> http://footage.framepool.com/shotimg/qf/628193527-po-fiume-rete-da-pesca-crepuscolo-riva-sponda.jpg and these 21:13:03 <andythenorth> should probably try and detect rivers :P 21:13:07 <andythenorth> not tonight though 21:14:20 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 21:14:57 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 21:15:07 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 21:15:21 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 21:19:17 *** Alberth has left #openttd 21:21:48 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 21:35:25 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:40:07 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 21:41:01 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 21:52:52 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 22:15:41 *** fap has joined #openttd 22:15:48 <fap> hello 22:16:20 *** fap is now known as Guest175 22:16:32 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 22:22:32 <Guest175> whats the largest most impressive saved game out there that i can download? 22:23:24 <Guest175> with like the entire map already covered in cities and unlimited trains in every nook and cranny of the map? 22:24:35 *** welshdragon has quit IRC 22:46:31 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd 22:47:03 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:53:14 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:07:18 *** gelignite has quit IRC 23:07:18 *** Milek7 has quit IRC 23:08:17 *** Milek7 has joined #openttd 23:25:51 *** MonkeyDrone has quit IRC 23:37:57 *** JezK_ has joined #openttd 23:38:56 <FLHerne> Openttdcoop ones are scary 23:39:01 <FLHerne> Guest175: ^ 23:40:06 <FLHerne> (https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Hall_of_Fame) 23:51:00 *** FLHerne has quit IRC