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Log for #openttd on 1st December 2016:
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00:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: oh, also nice is a "Weltraumbahnhof", even though there aren't actually any rails into space :/
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09:22:08  <Wolf01> Moin
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13:27:20  <andythenorth> o/
13:29:42  <Wolf01> o/
13:33:07  <andythenorth> is cats?
13:33:26  <Wolf01> No, just depression
13:33:58  <andythenorth> :|
13:34:06  <andythenorth> tried ‘not depression’?
13:34:20  <andythenorth> of the two options, ‘not’ is better
13:34:22  <Wolf01> It's bound to money
13:34:45  <Wolf01> Money = not depression, not money = depression
13:35:16  <andythenorth> money = spending power = sense of autonomy, ability to meet needs
13:35:19  <andythenorth> can’t eat money :)
13:35:36  <Wolf01> +1
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13:40:55  <Wolf01> o/
13:41:01  <Alberth> hi hi
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13:54:49  <goodger> Wolf01: can confirm that money != not depression
13:57:17  <Wolf01> You have a bf/gf? You have close friends? You don't have to deal with continuous harassment by your own country? You still have pets? At least I have some spare money, but I don't want to spend it because things can go even worse
13:58:17  <Wolf01> Also, do you still have space in your room to put lego?
14:00:05  <goodger> I have five years of cohabitation with what is essentially my husband, several friends, my country of birth is a hair's breadth away from going fascist, I have no pets, and theoretically there is space in here for lego, but I haven't tried
14:00:51  <Wolf01> Then it does seem that your life is fairly better than mine
14:01:11  <goodger> and yet still depression
14:03:18  <Wolf01> Did you got it diagnosed? I was cured once, so I know what it is
14:05:16  <Wolf01> And I'm actively trying to get rid of it, but now that winter is coming it bites even more
14:07:29  <Wolf01> I found that a constant supply of new things is enough to keep me happy in these times, but I don't have a constant money balance
14:10:10  <Alberth> sell old stuff ?
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14:10:54  <Wolf01> Eh... I could sell some books
14:11:10  <Wolf01> Lego not for sure :P
14:12:02  <Alberth> :D
14:12:28  <Wolf01> I still have a lot of sets still MISB (sealed)
14:12:47  <Wolf01> Which I really want to build, but no space to put them
14:12:50  <Alberth> hmm, taking up space and you can't even play with it
14:14:20  <Wolf01> I need to get rid of at least 6 amazon big boxes filled with lego sealed boxes or built models
14:15:10  <andythenorth> I keep considering selling more Lego
14:15:20  <andythenorth> we sold some City stuff
14:15:47  <andythenorth> I have hoarded rare technic parts also
14:19:18  <andythenorth> should maybe sell those
14:19:41  <Wolf01> I would buy :P
14:20:46  <Wolf01> But 25kg of loose lego is waiting for me at a friend's home, because we decided to purchase some to split up
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14:26:19  <goodger> Wolf01: yes, I have, I see a psychiatrist every month and I'm on four medications
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14:42:05  <Wolf01> Speaking of happier things, how's NRT?? What do we need now?
14:42:55  <Wolf01> I should leave a note to myself to fix editor
14:49:52  <Wolf01> https://ideas.lego.com/projects/158489 andy, this awaits your vote
14:51:36  <andythenorth> I don’t know what’s next on NRT
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15:11:17  <supermop> good morning
15:12:27  <Alberth> moin
15:15:12  <supermop> bought a monitor last night, still no computer tho
15:15:19  <Alberth> :D
15:15:30  <Alberth> at least you have something to look at :)
15:15:37  <supermop> three phones ago i had a phone with mini hdmi out
15:16:14  <supermop> maybe ill dig that up and connect it to the monitor and then pair a bluetooth mouse and keyboard to it
15:16:20  <Alberth> get the shoe box out!
15:17:13  <Alberth> would seem a bit silly though, a phone connected to a large monitor
15:22:25  <supermop> esp a phone from 2011
15:25:17  <Alberth> oh, that's very recent :p
15:26:52  <supermop> it was replaced when i moved to australia because it didn't work very well in 2014...
15:27:51  <Alberth> ah, fair enough
15:28:14  <supermop> so i don't know if it will quite work as a desktop replacement in late 2016
15:33:51  <Alberth> a monitor dedicated to the #openttd channel seems like a good idea
15:34:18  <Alberth> I hope it meets the minimal 28" size requirements
15:39:18  <supermop> haha
15:39:42  <supermop> use monitor and phone as a dedicated read only #openttd appliance
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16:23:04  <supermop> an andy appears
16:36:29  <supermop> andythenorth: opioids for steeltown economy
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17:03:53  <Alberth> wrong question :p
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17:23:37  <andythenorth> supermop: playing Steeltown? o_O
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17:32:23  <supermop> andythenorth: reading about opioid treatment in rustbelt
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17:47:44  <Wolf01> Quak
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17:55:21  <frosch123> moi
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19:04:41  <andythenorth> ok so http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
19:05:11  <andythenorth> works ok, in a first-time-played test game
19:05:17  <andythenorth> but
19:05:30  <andythenorth> ENSP and SESP are hard to get
19:05:57  <andythenorth> I have one shipyard with low output, and no ENSP at all
19:08:11  <frosch123> is that a good thing?
19:08:28  <andythenorth> I wondered
19:08:40  <andythenorth> it gives an obvious focus
19:08:56  <andythenorth> but the number of industries needing ENSP, and the amount I can produce are quite far apart
19:09:16  <andythenorth> options
19:09:19  <andythenorth> - it’s fine do nothing
19:09:27  <andythenorth> - add forest->lumber->ensp chain
19:09:40  <andythenorth> - add supply yard, accepting building materials -> ensp
19:11:08  <frosch123> could the pipe mill produce ensp?
19:11:17  <andythenorth> it could
19:11:29  <frosch123> water/air/stuff in mines
19:11:34  <andythenorth> plausible
19:12:55  <andythenorth> can’t remember why I removed ‘PIPE’
19:12:59  <andythenorth> maybe it was just one cargo too many
19:13:22  <frosch123> no, it was because building materials already contained pipes
19:13:46  <frosch123> you found pipes on the builders yard or something
19:15:08  <andythenorth> ach why is chrome search so crap :P
19:15:32  <andythenorth> oh pipe messed up the graphviz layouts :)
19:15:41  <andythenorth> it’s an ‘interesting’ reason to remove it as a cargo :D
19:15:59  <frosch123> nah, it was because of building material
19:16:10  <frosch123> you cannot have nickel and base metals in the same economy
19:16:16  <frosch123> because nickel is part of base metals
19:16:20  <andythenorth> yes
19:16:25  <frosch123> do you cannot have pipe and building materials
19:16:40  <frosch123> vehicles draw pipes and stuff when they have building materials loaded
19:16:53  <andythenorth> can have in same economy if there’s a converter industry, but iff
19:17:06  <andythenorth> ‘subtypes’ :P
19:17:57  <andythenorth> might be an accident that pipe mill doesn’t have ensp
19:18:13  <andythenorth> logs suggest it was intended
19:21:23  <supermop> make some industries accept bdmt instead of ensp?
19:22:12  <andythenorth> every so often I consider that
19:22:14  <andythenorth> then I reject it
19:22:23  <andythenorth> the ENSP / FMSP thing is now pretty entrenched
19:22:34  <andythenorth> it’s a useful design constraint
19:22:40  <frosch123> yeah, players know what "supplies" means :)
19:22:45  <andythenorth> solid constraints are very valuable
19:22:53  <andythenorth> otherwise choices have no meaning
19:22:56  <supermop> industry needs bdmt to expand?
19:23:19  <andythenorth> might be valid, but it’s a new mechanic
19:23:34  <andythenorth> I don’t hate the idea, but it doesn’t fit FIRS I think
19:23:45  <supermop> just wondering
19:24:02  <supermop> somewhere for all those ibeams and precast concrete to go
19:25:15  <andythenorth> bdmt -> supply yard -> ensp
19:25:28  <supermop> feels like a cheat
19:25:38  <andythenorth> one unfinished steel chain has 12 primary source currently :P
19:26:11  <supermop> whats at the other end?
19:32:07  <andythenorth> so far, some galvanised steel
19:32:13  <andythenorth> and some marine supplies
19:32:36  <andythenorth> it’s definitely not suitable for a simple ‘connect all industries’ game :)
19:33:05  <andythenorth> might play quite well with silicon valley, with the right industries
19:33:17  <supermop> galvanized hmm
19:33:26  <supermop> light poles?
19:33:33  <supermop> catwalks?
19:33:41  <andythenorth> ‘building materials’ ;D
19:35:34  <andythenorth> also car bodies
19:36:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: know of any reason station refit order couldn’t offer choice of subtypes? o_O
19:36:18  <andythenorth> other than ‘UI would suck’
19:36:24  <andythenorth> and ‘nobody wanted to do it’
19:36:49  <supermop> i think you need to separate bdmt into every minuscule subtype
19:37:16  <supermop> "you delivered enough floorboards but not enough nails: town is not growing"
19:37:34  <andythenorth> urban economy eh?
19:37:45  <andythenorth> cement, coffee, flowers, furniture
19:37:48  <andythenorth> trainers
19:38:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: because subtypes depend on vehicle types, and there is no consistent way to store that in savegames
19:38:13  <supermop> "you delivered too many nails. the hardware stores went broke paying to store them: town is not growing"
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19:38:51  <andythenorth> frosch123: and so refitting in depot has no need to store anything?
19:39:01  <andythenorth> because it’s not an order
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19:39:21  <supermop> "you delivered air jordans but town wants Yeezeys: town is not growing"
19:39:30  <frosch123> manual refit only affects a single vehicle
19:39:33  <andythenorth> yup ok
19:39:39  * andythenorth has understood
19:39:45  <frosch123> ordered refit affects any vehicles, esp. when autoreplace is involved
19:40:35  <frosch123> you could try it with template based consist replacement
19:42:18  <supermop> "you delivered 100 British racing green cars, only one buyer wanted lime, 99 wanted forest green: town is not growing"
19:42:33  <andythenorth> we have template based consist replacement? o_O
19:42:53  <supermop> patch i think?
19:43:06  <andythenorth> ach, yes, the subtype potentially varies completely by vehicle, I should know that as newgrf author :P
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19:51:07  <supermop> is there a steeltown for testing on dev zone?
19:51:37  <frosch123> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
19:53:41  <andythenorth> I’ve also been updating IH and RH and CHIPS with cargo support
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19:53:56  <andythenorth> although that’s not essential
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20:07:13  <andythenorth> anyone got any bright ideas for ship capacity?
20:07:27  <andythenorth> it’s hard to get it ‘just right’, unlike trains and RVs
20:10:23  <Rubidium> why not make capacity refits where the running costs are scaled by the capacity. Then the ships can have the right capacity for many playing styles
20:10:46  <frosch123> capacity could equal 4, 6 and 8 tile trains
20:11:14  <andythenorth> capacity refits are…out
20:11:23  <andythenorth> because they can’t be used with station refit orders :)
20:11:26  <Rubidium> so one person says... okay 200 tons of X is for a small ship, 2000 for a large ship whereas someone else might say... well 50 tons is a small ship and 200 tons are huge
20:11:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can still use station refits
20:11:41  <andythenorth> I have capacity parameter however
20:11:45  <frosch123> just the subtype cannot change
20:12:30  <frosch123> a station refit from coal (medium) to iore (medium) works
20:12:57  <andythenorth> it does yes :)
20:12:59  <frosch123> you just need to make sure that all compatible cargos have the same subtypes (same strings)
20:13:16  <andythenorth> but I only use station refits in my game, and I’m making the grf :P ;)
20:13:51  <frosch123> oh, i remember, for andy station refits means to purchase a vehicle and just send it to the station
20:13:59  <andythenorth> yes
20:14:19  <andythenorth> that’s not scalable across different vehicle types with cargo subtypes
20:15:22  <andythenorth> there was some request for ‘build already refitted’ recently
20:16:36  <frosch123> it exists in patches
20:16:57  <frosch123> but users will complain that the preview capacity is incorrect :)
20:17:09  <frosch123> yet another case for template based consist purchase :p
20:17:22  <andythenorth> ha
20:17:22  <frosch123> not sure whether the template patch also does that
20:17:45  * andythenorth wonders about ships with holds
20:17:51  <andythenorth> and other ideas rejected many times over
20:18:46  <andythenorth> IRL, if a buyer has 3000t of grain, and the easiest charter is a 5000t ship
20:18:50  <andythenorth> they don’t fill every hold full
20:19:17  <andythenorth> ho, % full load would do it :P
20:19:23  <supermop> if its a charter, they would sell the other capacity
20:19:30  <andythenorth> only if there’s a buyer on hand
20:19:36  <andythenorth> small coastal shipping, might not be
20:19:41  <andythenorth> as if IRL matters anyway :)
20:19:43  <supermop> i meant wouldnt
20:19:57  <andythenorth> :)
20:20:16  <supermop> probably not worth waiting to find someone to take the other 2000t for the same route
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20:20:26  <andythenorth> % full load, with a crazy overload option
20:21:09  <supermop> thats sort of the whole point of containerization and palatalization, before the ship just had to do what the customer wanted
20:21:28  <andythenorth> > 100% full load, increased chance of new ‘ship sank’ disaster
20:21:34  <supermop> even if it meant wasting capacity
20:21:35  <andythenorth> 'such gameplay’
20:21:45  <supermop> or 'containers fell off'
20:21:55  <andythenorth> ‘cargo fell overboard'
20:21:59  <supermop> 'legos wash up on english beaches'
20:25:59  <Eddi|zuHause> "the front fell off"?
20:27:26  <frosch123> lego should be bulk cargo
20:31:52  <andythenorth> countable or uncountable?
20:32:58  <frosch123> pourable
20:33:51  <andythenorth> what about an order type restricted to ships, specifying amount of cargo to load :P
20:34:04  <andythenorth> [UI to enter a number]
20:34:18  <andythenorth> and there’s only one size of ship :P
20:34:20  <frosch123> i am wondering how trams should behave when encountering an incompatible tram type
20:34:37  <andythenorth> they get stuck
20:34:48  <frosch123> i think they should just revert, even though tram can usually not revert on full tile end
20:35:01  <andythenorth> they can if you hit ‘turn around’ enough times
20:35:10  <andythenorth> I can never figure out under what conditions that works
20:35:35  <frosch123> hmm, maybe they do
20:35:54  <supermop> andythenorth: click 3 times quickly
20:36:09  <supermop> unless its stuck at a dead end
20:36:12  <frosch123> but there is specific code to decide whether one could build tram track on the next tile for unstucking
20:38:24  <andythenorth> seems over-thought
20:38:37  <andythenorth> there’s no gain to punishing player?
20:38:44  <andythenorth> maybe there is, if they don’t build routes properly
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20:42:16  <supermop> the game should be an exercise in misery
20:42:58  <supermop> the news should randomly pop up saying that your employees dislike you personally
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