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Log for #openttd on 10th December 2016:
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01:56:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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08:49:25  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the same reason Americans park on the drive way and drive on the park way?
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09:10:14  <andythenorth_> o/
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10:26:55  <Wolf01> o/
10:30:27  <andythenorth> lo
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10:38:10  <Wolf01> o/
10:38:15  <Alberth> moin
10:38:35  <Alberth> Saturday today!
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12:16:51  <andythenorth> quiet eh?
12:17:50  <Rubidium> that's to balance with the noisiness of your children ;)
12:18:05  <andythenorth> there are 4 kids here right now
12:18:11  <andythenorth> they are playing mario
12:18:12  <andythenorth> it’s loud
12:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> they multiply?
12:18:59  <andythenorth> they have friends :P
12:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare they.
12:25:08  <andythenorth> can I crash ottd?
12:25:10  <andythenorth> let’s see
12:31:17  <andythenorth> so eh, how many strings can I put on the text stack?
12:31:23  <andythenorth> 4?
12:31:34  <Alberth> less than infinite?
12:31:36  <Alberth> :)
12:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... more than 4
12:31:52  <Alberth> 4 will likely work
12:31:54  <andythenorth> nml has them in 256-259
12:32:01  <andythenorth> which I count as 4
12:32:04  <Alberth> gotta try them all
12:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you can put 2 strings per register
12:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> since they are word sized
12:32:41  <andythenorth> yes I can
12:32:48  <andythenorth> and also that’s why my code doesn’t work right now
12:32:49  <andythenorth> thanks
12:33:11  <andythenorth> so what do I do to stuff them?
12:33:43  <andythenorth> switch (FEAT_INDUSTRIES, SELF, ${industry.id}_extra_text_non_debug_2, [STORE_TEMP(string(STR_TEST_2) | STORE_TEMP(string(STR_TEST_2) << 16, 256)]) {
12:33:44  <andythenorth> ?
12:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no
12:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> something along the lines of STORE_TEMP(STR_2 | (STR_1 << 16))
12:34:36  <andythenorth> yes the one I posted had clown shoes on
12:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> err switch 1 and 2
12:34:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i think
12:35:02  <andythenorth> I’ll test
12:35:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i have some parameter magic buried in CETS somewhere
12:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/scripts/write_engine.py#L191
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12:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can decipher that...
12:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> gtg
12:36:27  <andythenorth> ta
12:39:19  <andythenorth> 
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12:58:08  <frosch123> hoi
12:59:31  <andythenorth> quak
12:59:40  <andythenorth> I should pull NRT updates eh?
13:00:03  <frosch123> next is patching nml to add roadvehicle property 05
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13:04:54  <Wolf01> Quak
13:07:21  <Wolf01> About the editor, we will let designers lay every know roadtype then?
13:09:56  <frosch123> how does it work for industries?
13:10:05  <frosch123> can you plant oilrigs in 1920?
13:12:00  <Wolf01> Yes
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13:13:19  <Wolf01> At least it is in the list
13:25:04  <andythenorth> ha
13:25:16  <andythenorth> I am putting strings on the stack
13:25:23  <andythenorth> and those strings need parameters from the stack
13:25:34  <andythenorth> this is getting hard to parse in my head :)
13:26:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27687 /trunk/src (rail.h rail_cmd.cpp) (2016-12-10 14:26:29 +0100 )
13:26:38  <DorpsGek> -Fix: RailtypeInfo::alternate_labels leaked when reloading NewGRF. (adf88)
13:28:53  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27688 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2016-12-10 14:28:47 +0100 )
13:28:54  <DorpsGek> -Fix-ish: Initialise new railtypes with the original railtype data, though strictly NewGRF could only have modified 'label' and 'alternate_labels' at the time AllocateRailType is called, which are reset anyway.
13:31:17  <Wolf01> Let's see how badly I can crash OTTD this time
13:32:00  <Wolf01> Mmmh, the engine pool doesn't like the editor
13:32:49  <Wolf01> Not so bad, I just make another function without the company shit
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13:39:47  <Wolf01> Ok, I got a geyed out dropdown and it opens the industries window when released :P
13:39:55  <Wolf01> *greyed
13:40:56  <Wolf01> For the greyed part was easy, the problem now is why the items open strange windows
13:44:06  <Wolf01> Oh, shared clicked procs list, bad
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14:11:31  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder
14:11:43  <andythenorth> is there a better way than ‘start coding at the beginning’
14:11:44  <andythenorth> :P
14:12:32  <frosch123> people argue whether to do top-down or bottom-up or alternating between them :)
14:15:25  <andythenorth> I am always curious how to start with the design, without writing some code
14:15:44  <andythenorth> but eh
14:17:25  <Alberth> think big blocks of functionality, and how to exchange data
14:17:54  <Alberth> or rather what kind of data each has, and what other blocks need access in what way to it
14:18:02  <andythenorth> that is predicated on knowing what the functionality is :)
14:18:26  <andythenorth> there’s always this assumption that the design can be known a priori
14:18:48  <Alberth> yep, an idea of suggested functionality for each block helps a lot :)
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14:19:21  <Alberth> I think nobody knows exactly how one reaches a design
14:19:32  <Alberth> so they abstract all the details away :)
14:20:08  <Alberth> I don't even know how I do it, let alone how you should do it in general
14:20:42  <Alberth> likely each person does things a little different
14:21:13  <Alberth> not a problem, as there are loads of good solutions, it doesn't matter much which good one you precisely pick
14:21:37  <Alberth> as long as you avoid bad ones, for your situation
14:23:36  <Alberth> in my experience, the problem with a design without coding it at least roughly, is that it's too easy to forget some crucial piece of data
14:24:04  <Alberth> which sometimes completely invalidates your design
14:25:13  <andythenorth> common findings I have from writing spike code...
14:25:24  <andythenorth> (1) not possible within spec (mostly a newgrf thing, not other places)
14:25:30  <andythenorth> (2) idea sucks
14:25:40  <andythenorth> (3) there’s a simpler way and most of the idea can be deleted
14:25:49  <andythenorth> (4) ‘this will take much longer than hoped’
14:25:50  <andythenorth> :P
14:25:53  <Alberth> (3) is normal :)
14:26:07  <Alberth> I also always start at the wrong end of the problem :p
14:27:59  <Alberth> you can avoid writing code by doing much high level thinking what you need everywhere, but it seems more complicated than just writing rough pseudo code
14:28:12  <Alberth> or experimental code in python
14:28:54  <Alberth> start at the core, or the unknown parts, if that fails, no point in going further
14:34:04  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27689 /trunk/src (3 files) (2016-12-10 15:33:58 +0100 )
14:34:05  <DorpsGek> -Fix: MSVC warnings.
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14:48:25  <Wolf01> I really need a VCS which allows me to work backwards
14:48:52  <frosch123> sounds good, i would just stop at the star then :)
14:48:54  <Wolf01> I pushed the changes for the scenario editor
14:49:31  <Wolf01> It still open the standard road toolbar for every item on the dropdown
14:50:10  <Wolf01> But when you buid it it is the right type
14:51:00  <Wolf01> I need to change the widget definitions for the editor, because those weren't shared
14:52:35  <Wolf01> (which is strange because it is the same toolbar)
14:57:38  <Wolf01> Could be that RoadTypeInfo is not correctly set up in editor?
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14:58:12  <Wolf01> The SetupRoadToolbar() is executed the same way of the normal game
15:03:59  <frosch123> Wolf01: are you on windows?
15:04:04  <Wolf01> Yes
15:04:05  <frosch123> can you still build road and rail?
15:04:15  <frosch123> the win compile farm fails with the regression
15:04:19  <Wolf01> Seem so, I just built it
15:04:22  <frosch123> i already emrged the change to rnt
15:04:35  <Wolf01> Yes I got it
15:06:02  <andythenorth> herp
15:06:06  <andythenorth> how do I use ‘CARGO_SHORT'
15:06:17  <frosch123> you give two parameters
15:06:21  <frosch123> amount and cargo type
15:06:26  <frosch123> or cargo type and amount
15:06:37  <frosch123> i never know the order
15:06:47  <andythenorth> let’s see
15:10:48  <Wolf01> <Wolf01> I really need a VCS which allows me to work backwards <- https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/commit/0c912a22042c0ae06de3ed25480b66614d0e7e5c#commitcomment-20144344 as always
15:11:07  <andythenorth> backwards :)
15:12:26  <andythenorth> ach slow compile is slow
15:12:35  <andythenorth> fast FIRS is now slow FIRS, because I added more economies
15:13:42  <Wolf01> Eh, I look on what I need to work, seems easy, I start working on it, 90%... I need to change something else, save changes, revert changes, change the other thing, compile and test, do something stupid like try to add the saved changes, test, remove added changes... commit
15:14:15  <Wolf01> And usually I miss the last CTRL+Z
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15:19:38  <Wolf01> The stupid is always in ambush inside my head
15:25:24  <michi_cc> Wolf01: git commit -i allows you to stage changes line by line, best way IMHO to split the complete changes into sensible commits (the various GUI tools all provide an equivalent function).
15:25:32  <andythenorth> is there a very abbreviated cargo format (’t’ instead of ‘tonnes’)?
15:26:05  <michi_cc> Wolf01: Or rather git add -i, we aren't at commiting yet :)
15:26:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: CARGO_TINY
15:26:50  <frosch123> or something like that
15:27:12  <Wolf01> Nah, the problem is that I need to reorder my actions edit->test->commit->more edit->more test->commit instead of edit->test->more edit->test->revert more edit->commit
15:27:16  <andythenorth> docs imply that doesn’t show units :)
15:27:18  * andythenorth tries it
15:30:32  <andythenorth> no units :)
15:30:33  <andythenorth> nvm
15:32:49  <andythenorth> industry window text will just get longer :P
15:39:09  <andythenorth> ach cargo names are capitalised :P
15:39:26  <andythenorth> this time-saving automation idea is one of my worst ever :|
15:41:50  <andythenorth> there’s no formatter to lower-case all chars?
15:42:19  <Rubidium> andythenorth: but that fails for some language where words need to be capitalised
15:42:30  <Rubidium> you could, however, use cases
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15:45:53  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8226/generated_production_ratios.png
15:46:06  <andythenorth> if this works, it possibly saves a lot of translator effort
15:46:12  <andythenorth> but it saves me nothing :D
15:46:28  <andythenorth> and the formatting is wasteful
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15:48:31  <andythenorth> ach I could write my own formatters
15:49:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27690 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2016-12-10 16:49:25 +0100 )
15:49:32  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Old compilers do not zero-initialise POD members when explicitly calling implicitly created default constructors.
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16:11:12  <frosch> he, same second :p
16:12:32  <goodger> automatic tabulating machines are noted for their speed and efficiency
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16:38:14  <andythenorth> ach I could process the lang files
16:38:22  <andythenorth> duplicating all the cargo names, and calling .lower() on them
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16:41:41  <andythenorth> nah, there must be a better way
16:47:42  <andythenorth> CARGO_LONG is better
16:47:49  <andythenorth> and one less word needed
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16:59:43  * Wolf01 is booored
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17:12:22  <Alberth> play a game?
17:16:02  <Wolf01> Boring too :P
17:19:27  <supermop> yo
17:30:22  <Wolf01> I need to fix all the cargo amount and costs of train fever, it's everything stupid as fuck... a boeing 757 for 55 passengers, the concorde 24, a ferry ship for 12
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18:41:58  <Alberth> o/
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27691 trunk/src/lang/italian.txt (2016-12-10 19:45:38 +0100 )
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:48  <DorpsGek> italian: 9 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:18  <andythenorth> so I might need a way to deprecate a lot of translation strings in FIRS
18:46:26  <andythenorth> and I’d prefer not to remove them manually :P
18:47:03  <Alberth> base language?
18:47:05  <andythenorth> I could (a) write a script to rename them, or delete them from lang files
18:47:14  <andythenorth> (b) something else
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18:48:33  <Alberth> find strings in the source?
18:50:45  <andythenorth> specifically strings like http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/lang/dutch.lng#L282
18:51:02  <andythenorth> STR_EXTRA_ALUMINUM_PLANT will no longer need the ‘2t voor iedere 8.000l’ stuff
18:51:22  <andythenorth> and it needs removing, otherwise it will appear broken in game (duplicated info)
18:51:33  <andythenorth> just delete them from the lang files?
18:51:46  <Alberth> translations are done by Eints
18:52:02  <Alberth> it follows the base language
18:52:16  <andythenorth> yes
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18:52:58  <Alberth> so no point in doing that manually, although the devzone machine may like you less afterwards :p
18:53:24  <Alberth> but you have a diff in the base language?
18:53:28  <andythenorth> I am confused about what the proposal is :D
18:53:36  <andythenorth> I don’t have the base lang diff yet, no
18:53:43  <Alberth> I am confused what your problem is :)
18:53:54  <andythenorth> me too
18:54:39  <andythenorth> so STR_EXTRA_MACHINE_SHOP
18:54:41  <Alberth> I'd suggest concentrate on base language only, for now
18:54:43  <glx> I guess eints auto removes strings
18:54:47  <andythenorth> is currently :{BLACK}Builds and services machinery.{}{}Cargo production:{}  8 crates per 8,000l petroleum fuels delivered{}  8 crates per 8t metal delivered
18:54:58  <andythenorth> it will become: :{BLACK}Builds and services machinery.
18:55:13  <andythenorth> the ‘Cargo production’ information is generated automatically
18:55:20  <Alberth> ok
18:55:29  <glx> translation will be marked outdated
18:55:35  <andythenorth> this means that my choices are (1) delete some translation information (2) ship broken FIRS
18:55:51  <andythenorth> which is worse?
18:55:53  <Alberth> huh?
18:56:01  <glx> but you can also remove the extra text yourself
18:56:09  <andythenorth> ha ha ha ha ha
18:56:10  <andythenorth> no :)
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18:56:26  <andythenorth> there are 38 languages
18:56:49  <andythenorth> and 58 strings
18:57:00  <Alberth> ah, you want all languages changed, and not just base language
18:57:06  <andythenorth> yes
18:57:15  <Alberth> not sure if that's possible
18:57:25  <glx> then only touch base language and let translators do their work
18:57:34  <andythenorth> then FIRS is broken
18:57:36  <Alberth> I wouldn't know what text the first part is for all but a few languages
18:57:50  <frosch> i added the necessary stuff to give roadvehicles a roadtype to nml and ottd. anyone fancy to extend the testgrf with roadtypes of different compatibility, and also some roadvehicles with different type? :)
18:57:55  <glx> or remove strings from translations
18:57:58  <andythenorth> best thing I think is to delete all those strings, it’s a trivial script
18:58:04  <andythenorth> but that pisses off translators?
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18:58:11  <andythenorth> it deletes their work with no way to get it back?
18:58:56  <Alberth> you have to consider what happens if the translation never gets updated
18:59:03  <frosch> andythenorth: if you fix the baselanguage, eints will fix the rest
18:59:15  <andythenorth> fix how? ;)
18:59:21  <frosch> eints removes translations which do not exist in the baselanguage
18:59:30  <Alberth> frosch: he wants to rescue some parts of the old strings for all languages
18:59:36  <andythenorth> yeah, they’ll still exist, I’ve just edited the contents
18:59:39  <Alberth> which is complicated to say the least
18:59:42  <andythenorth> also I will happily do the NRT grf, I just need to finish a bit more of this first :)
18:59:58  <frosch> well, then they will show as outdated
19:00:03  <frosch> will they be much wrong?
19:00:38  <Alberth> :{BLACK}Builds and services machinery.{}{}Cargo production:{}  8 crates per 8,000l petroleum fuels delivered{}  8 crates per 8t metal delivered{}{}Cargo production:{}  8 crates per 8,000l petroleum fuels delivered{}  8 crates per 8t metal delivered
19:00:50  <Alberth> that's what you'd get
19:00:58  <Alberth> the cargo info twice
19:01:09  <frosch> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pqtj3a8d2 <- yesterday i ported some ottd translations with that
19:01:56  <Alberth> what if you make new strings, and replace the old texts with "obsolete?" and not use them in the grf, but keep them in the language file?
19:02:08  <frosch> Alberth: then i would try to cut the translations after the n-th {}
19:02:22  <andythenorth> Alberth: I wondered about new strings
19:02:23  <frosch> translators will still see the old translation in the eints history
19:02:29  <Alberth> well, for some languages that would work
19:02:33  <andythenorth> and the old ones are just unused
19:02:40  <andythenorth> and I blank the contents for base lang
19:02:48  <frosch> if you commit the translation changes before the baselang changes, then the translatiosn will still show up as "outdated" for validation
19:02:55  <frosch> i did just that yesterday in ottd
19:03:15  <Alberth> ^ that advantage of that andy, is I can copy/paste the relevant bit from the outdated version
19:03:32  <Alberth> which beats typing it again
19:04:24  <Alberth> hmm, even without changing the translation
19:04:53  <andythenorth> yes
19:04:55  <andythenorth> agreed
19:05:07  <andythenorth> I think that’s the nicest solution
19:05:30  <Alberth> after a few weeks you could remove translation texts that still have the {}{}  things
19:05:52  <Alberth> so they fall back to base language
19:08:48  <andythenorth> ach this won’t work anyway
19:09:17  <andythenorth> I’m up to register 261 already, and I have one more cargo to display
19:11:03  <frosch> spreadsheets :)
19:11:56  <andythenorth> ? :P
19:16:30  <andythenorth> 5 dwords is apparently not enough for this
19:17:56  <frosch> gamescripts complainted that 20 were not enough :p
19:18:03  <frosch> *authors
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19:19:04  <andythenorth> I wonder if I can do it differently, with more duplication, and fewer reused substrings
19:19:43  <andythenorth> should only need 10 items on the stack
19:19:48  <andythenorth> that should fit
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19:23:18  <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/piwlouxms is rendering N/A or -ve values for CARGO_LONG
19:23:54  <andythenorth> I shouldn’t be storing the cargo labels like that?
19:25:12  <frosch> cargolabels are fine
19:25:20  <frosch> did you miscount the bits maybe?
19:25:31  <Alberth> IL) | GOOD << 16   <-- that looks wrong, add   parentheses  (GOOD << 16)   ?
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19:26:00  <andythenorth> I took it from nml docs :)
19:26:03  <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Language_files#String_parameters
19:26:19  <Alberth> ah, ok, maybe I am wrong :)
19:26:42  <andythenorth> but those have a typo in already
19:26:46  <andythenorth> missing ]
19:28:03  <Alberth> adding parentheses around shift operations wouldn't do harm
19:28:15  <andythenorth> no, but nor does it fix it :)
19:28:18  * andythenorth just tried
19:28:31  <Alberth> ok, thanks
19:28:53  <frosch> http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/09fe346b5480/src/newgrf_text.cpp#l1052 <- well, code is there, you can always add printf or something
19:29:27  <andythenorth> it doesn’t only work with default cargos?
19:29:35  * andythenorth assumes not, but it appeared to work for coal
19:29:41  <andythenorth> and not cargos I added
19:29:58  <frosch> there is a GetCargoTranslation in the code
19:30:09  <frosch> it may not work, but at least it is intended to work :)
19:32:02  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8227/generated_production_ratios_2.png
19:32:05  <andythenorth> suspicious
19:32:11  <andythenorth> coal works, FIRS cargos don’t
19:32:57  <andythenorth> STR_CARGO_UNIT_STONE  :{WEIGHT} of stone
19:34:38  <andythenorth> I’ve pushed all this if anyone wants to try :P
19:34:52  <andythenorth> make clean, then make install TEST_INDUSTRY=lime_kiln
19:34:59  <andythenorth> is a quick compile
19:44:53  <frosch> what would be the expeted output?
19:47:03  <frosch> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pzwsfd4w1 <- looks like that is passed
19:49:29  <frosch> should the 53000 be a 8 ?
20:25:00  <frosch> found the issue
20:25:42  <frosch> it's the popular "pass parameters via global variables, and then break everything via recursions" issue
20:25:54  <andythenorth> the 53000 should be an 8 :)
20:28:13  <frosch> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbauyxjnc?/pbauyxjnc <- if you need a temporary fix for your testing
20:28:22  <frosch> but i will look again tomorrow for a proper fix
20:29:58  <andythenorth> thanks :)
20:30:06  <andythenorth> I have other things I could do right now
20:30:09  <andythenorth> like….NRT vehicles
20:30:41  <frosch> make sure to both pull nrt-ottd and nrt-nml :)
20:31:23  <frosch> roadvehicles now have a road_type / tram_type property to give them a road/tram label
20:31:49  <frosch> it is loaded by ottd, but has not yet any gameplay effect
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20:34:42  <frosch> night
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21:22:50  <andythenorth> grr
21:22:59  <andythenorth> I need 13 bytes on the text stack
21:23:05  <andythenorth> I’m allowed 12 :(
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21:25:38  <andythenorth> actually I need 14
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21:34:52  <andythenorth> 26 bytes
21:34:54  * andythenorth can’t count
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21:35:06  <andythenorth> but I use 14 words
21:35:16  <andythenorth> maybe I could stuff them more efficiently, dunno
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21:41:19  <andythenorth> some of the values are in the range 1-8
21:41:25  <andythenorth> hardly needs a dword for that
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23:46:22  <Wolf01> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEfzuCLoAQ
23:50:54  <Wolf01> I'm LMAO, and I always thought we had one of the worst services
23:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there's always some place that's worse...
23:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> like... tansania... where "the train is late" means "if the train doesn't come today, it'll probably come tomorrow"
23:57:19  <Wolf01> Don't worry, we like to copy USA, Trenitalia is running very very fast towards Amtrak's problems
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