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Log for #openttd on 18th December 2016:
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00:08:41  <lorran78> i installed all tools to compile
00:09:03  <lorran78> how can i use make with makefile from the grf source?
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00:46:25  <lorran78> i have that error with "make --makefile=(file)" ->"/bin/bash: cc: command not found"
00:52:38  <glx> means it didn't find cc.exe
00:52:59  <glx> I think you can edit makefile to use gcc instead
00:57:53  <lorran78> oh i see :p
00:58:49  <glx> and usually "make" should be enough, unless your makefile is not "makefile"
00:58:50  <lorran78> hum how can i recognise the line with cc error?
01:00:34  <glx> I guess it's around .pnml stuff
01:00:46  <glx> gcc is used to preprocess
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01:12:33  <lorran78> it's in a pnml you mean or in makefile where pnml is written?
01:14:20  <lorran78> after that error i have "make: *** [mynewgrf.nml] Error 127"
01:15:49  <glx> I'm not a nml specialist, maybe ask tomorrow when they are awake
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01:17:56  <lorran78> hum okay :)
01:18:04  <lorran78> i have a strange question now :p
01:19:20  <lorran78> is it possible to put the item transmiter (non destructible item) in the construction item (to prevent some place from industries arrival)
01:19:32  <lorran78> and so make it destructible :p
01:19:47  <glx> you can buy land
01:19:59  <lorran78> ah
01:20:06  <lorran78> and then destroy things?
01:20:19  <lorran78> even non destructible?
01:21:38  <glx> I can't remember if magic bulldozer can remove undestructible stuff
01:22:33  <glx> https://wiki.openttd.org/Magic_bulldozer
01:22:47  <lorran78> magic bulldozer haha :p
01:23:11  <glx> but it's highly recommended to only have it activated on paused game :)
01:23:51  <glx> https://wiki.openttd.org/Cheats#Magic_bulldozer <-- with pictures
01:24:08  <lorran78> cool :p
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01:24:17  <lorran78> how put this in game?
01:24:24  <lorran78> grf too?
01:24:45  <glx> top of the page in second link
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01:26:26  <lorran78> hum
01:26:39  <lorran78> then maybe it will be easier to cheat to back in time lol
01:26:45  <lorran78> and then have the first train :p
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01:55:13  <lorran78> i was kicked ? :)
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02:00:32  <glx> no, when you are kicked you know it
02:01:10  *** lorran78 was kicked by DorpsGek (just a test)
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08:05:37  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
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08:13:06  <Alberth> moin
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09:12:16  <andythenorth> coop jenkins hates me :)
09:12:28  <andythenorth> I have pushed a branch that I know won’t build there
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09:17:59  <lorran78> hello Alberth :p
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09:20:49  <lorran78> i have almost done my new grf from opengfx+ trains, i installed all tools to compile a new nml but now i have problem with using "make" it says "cc" not found something like that
09:21:22  <Alberth> ok
09:21:25  <andythenorth> paste the error?
09:21:26  <lorran78> don't know where change cc to gcc someone told me to do that
09:21:36  <lorran78> okay wait
09:21:55  <Alberth>  windows?
09:22:45  <Alberth> oh, maybe it works anyway..  try    CC=gcc make
09:23:04  <lorran78> i am compiling :p
09:23:18  <lorran78> lol seems the space in the folder was a prob
09:23:25  <lorran78> wait
09:23:31  <lorran78> even with " "
09:23:47  <lorran78> maybe ok now it's processing
09:24:06  <Alberth> yeah, filenames with spaces are confusing, don't know why people do that
09:24:21  <lorran78> juste "my documents" :p
09:24:30  <lorran78> because i put the whole folder
09:24:54  <lorran78> is it normal it doesn't use cache anymore?
09:25:04  <Alberth> it's still confusing, if you list the contents at a console you get "my" "documents"
09:25:12  <Alberth> now do you have 2 files or just one?
09:25:18  <lorran78> wait
09:25:28  <Alberth> nope :)
09:26:48  <lorran78> make --makefile=makefile then it seems the command "nmlc opengfx+trains.nml" automatic
09:27:27  <lorran78> and it's longer because it doesn't use cache anymore
09:27:46  <lorran78> processing... i hope it will be ok
09:30:23  <Alberth> have a tea or coffee while you let the machine compute
09:31:12  <lorran78> okay
09:35:48  <andythenorth> it _should_ use the nml cache after the first run
09:35:51  <andythenorth> which is faster
09:36:04  <andythenorth> there are some notes about make being slow under mingw also
09:36:09  <andythenorth> no known solution
09:37:03  <lorran78> yes but not this time the cache
09:37:04  <lorran78> but !
09:37:14  <lorran78> i have my first grf i think :p
09:37:25  <lorran78> i go test :p
09:38:02  <lorran78> make made me a folder with the new grf inside
09:38:11  <lorran78> and the grf and a tar file
09:39:34  <lorran78> :(
09:39:41  <lorran78> my changes don't work :(
09:39:53  <lorran78> but the grf is not same size
09:40:03  <lorran78> hum
09:40:33  <Alberth> sure you don't load the old one?
09:40:54  <Alberth> run openttd with   -d grf=4
09:41:08  <Alberth> gives a dump of where it finds/loads grfs
09:41:29  <Alberth> you may want to save output to a file :)
09:41:47  <lorran78> should i remove the old nml file in the folder?
09:42:02  <lorran78> i saw no new nml was created is it normal?
09:42:08  <Alberth> nml doesn't matter, openttd doesn't know nml
09:42:17  <lorran78> but make prog?
09:42:45  <Alberth> oh, make checks if one of its sources has changed, if not, it skips rebuilding the same file again
09:43:28  <Alberth> but it's safe to either 'touch' one source file, or delete the destination file
09:43:33  <Alberth> make will rebuild it
09:44:00  <lorran78> ok
09:44:57  <Alberth> you can ask make why it skips things, but output is usually too long to read :)
09:45:07  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
09:45:07  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 35 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
09:45:41  <Alberth> it's not even afternoon yet!
09:46:25  <andythenorth> 14 hours is plenty of sleeping time :)
09:48:02  <lorran78> if i delete the nml file then i have error
09:48:29  <lorran78> [CPP] ogfx-trains.nml /bin/bash: cc: command not found make: *** [ogfx-trains.nml] Error 127
09:48:43  <Alberth> sounds about right
09:49:00  <lorran78> but it's not my nml only my pnml :p
09:49:16  <lorran78> nevermind  or something wrong?
09:49:22  <Alberth> it concluded it needs to run the C pre-preprocessor again to construct the nml file from its *.pnml sources
09:49:36  <Alberth> except you don't have a 'cc' for that
09:49:54  <Alberth> does     CC=gcc make --makefile=makefile    work?
09:50:21  <Alberth> CC=gcc basically says "for cc, use gcc"
09:50:37  <lorran78> it's strange when i have the original nml file there is no more "cc" error
09:50:47  <Alberth> no it's not
09:50:59  <Alberth> it checks time stamps of all *.pnml files
09:51:10  <Alberth> it checks timestamp of the destination .nml
09:51:32  <Alberth> if the latter is younger than all the former, it skips building the nml
09:51:41  <lorran78> oh okay
09:51:42  <Alberth> and never reaches the point of needing cc
09:52:14  <lorran78> but i deleted the pnml which was near the nml
09:52:30  <lorran78> ogfx-trains.pnml(something like that)
09:52:47  <lorran78> now it used the cache
09:53:08  <Alberth> no doubt make looked for a way to create that file again, and failed
09:54:10  <Alberth> maybe it pulled the file from the VCS :)
09:56:11  <lorran78> hum i downloaded all grf from online content and i can't find them
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09:56:20  <Alberth> hola
09:56:32  <Wolf01> o/
09:56:41  <Alberth> all grf?  that's pretty useless
09:56:50  <lorran78> where are the downloaded grf?
09:56:58  <Alberth> you likely only need a few
09:57:01  <lorran78> yes i know i wanted to test something :p
09:57:36  <Alberth> don't know where they are at windows, but the README file of OpenTTD can tell you
09:57:39  <lorran78> maybe i take the original grf i want to move them somewhere else
09:57:44  <lorran78> ok
09:58:27  <Alberth> if you changed grfid, you should not have a problem with existing other grfs
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09:58:36  <Alberth> unless there is a conflict in IDs
09:59:02  <lorran78> i made my own id :p
09:59:07  <lorran78> wait i check
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09:59:20  <Alberth> ok, so does it show up if you select it in the newgrf window?
09:59:51  <lorran78> yes i changed to MZ+0
10:00:11  <lorran78> i think i select my own but don't know how to be sure
10:01:46  <lorran78> tell me if my changes are ok to introduce the train before the original date
10:01:48  <lorran78> item(FEAT_TRAINS, kirbypaul) {     property {             sprite_id:              SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN;    // We have our own sprite             misc_flags:             bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP, TRAIN_FLAG_2CC);             introduction_date:      date(1, 1, 1); 	} 	graphics {             default:            kirbypaul_default_indepot_switch;             purchase:           kirbypaul_default_switch_gui; 	} }
10:02:15  <Alberth> use a pastebin,   like paste.openttdcoop.org
10:02:28  <lorran78> oh yes here it's weird
10:03:27  <lorran78> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p39jfaii3
10:04:09  <Alberth> you can try a less drastic change first, like 1975 instead of 1925
10:05:09  <Alberth> hmm, you don't make a copy first?
10:06:42  <lorran78> i want to start on year 0 :p
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10:07:27  <lorran78> i add 100 year between all trains but no train works
10:07:45  <Wolf01> "When I open a particular page in the browser the game fps drops" "change browser"...
10:08:56  <Alberth> "When I open a browser, it eats 2GB memory"
10:09:24  <Wolf01> I have 16GB for that :P
10:09:52  <Alberth> lorran78:   well, first have something that works at all, I think :)
10:09:58  <Wolf01> Game's rendering is broken as shit (transport fever fyi)
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10:12:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: if game had ’Tram’ and ‘Electric Tram’…what would ‘Tram’ refer to? o_O
10:14:28  <Alberth> I'd pick the former, but I very much rely on proper naming of things
10:14:59  <andythenorth> in UK most trams would be electric by default
10:15:03  <Alberth> I can see some room for confusion there :p
10:15:07  <andythenorth> tram kind of means ‘electric’
10:15:15  <andythenorth> but ‘Non-Electric Tram’ is ugly
10:15:39  <Alberth> steam tram?
10:15:58  <Alberth> ie, it's also not "Non-maglev train"
10:16:30  <Alberth> Non-diesel-electric-monorail-maglev train
10:16:31  <Wolf01> Tram is the standard tram
10:16:38  <andythenorth> ‘Self-Propelled Tram’?
10:16:38  <Wolf01> Standard OTTD tram
10:16:46  <Wolf01> Electric, with catenary
10:17:05  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8240/road-hog.tar
10:17:11  <andythenorth> and https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt
10:17:16  <andythenorth> try it for yourself :)
10:17:27  <Wolf01> It's the same problem about elrail
10:17:39  <andythenorth> isn’t it just
10:17:53  <Wolf01> At the beginning we had electric trains running on normal rails
10:18:01  <Wolf01> Then catenary popped out
10:18:19  <Alberth> implementing that was a mistake :)
10:18:27  <Wolf01> Now we started with catenary, then no-catenary popped out
10:19:00  <Wolf01> The right solution would have been to make catenary as infrastructure and not as another rail/road type
10:22:32  <andythenorth> that ship sailed :)
10:22:38  <andythenorth> it may or may not have been electric :P
10:24:16  <Wolf01> I tried to make it non-electric, so the electric one had to be added with grf, but frosh changed it again to electric to not break compatibility/graphics with existing grfs
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10:45:03  <andythenorth> that means we need some way to refer to unpowered tramway
10:45:08  <andythenorth> “UNTR” :P
10:46:16  <Alberth> POTT (plain old tram tracks)
10:47:24  <andythenorth> :P
10:51:40  <Wolf01> http://steamcommunity.com/app/446800/discussions/1/154643982162787381/?tscn=1482024572 stupid idiots
10:57:55  <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/FwkeC also, sometimes closing OTTD (with the "X" button) while debugging it gives this error, it started to do it about a week ago and happened just one or two times after every build... should I change the web browser?
10:57:56  <__ln__> other than that, is transport fever a good game, worth the 25€?
10:58:05  <Wolf01> No, not worth 25€
10:58:10  <Wolf01> 15€ maybe
10:58:20  <Wolf01> It is a nice game
11:00:19  <Wolf01> It lacks many features even to make it work (for example you can only give load orders, no leave empty), maintainance works by replacing the whole consists, no min bank balance to autoreplace, capacities fucked up and mods try to make them worse
11:00:39  <andythenorth> early days
11:00:44  <Wolf01> "early"
11:00:56  * andythenorth would have tried something different than 3D reimplementation of Transport Tycoon
11:01:15  <andythenorth> Factorio is more ‘interesting’ than Train Fever, even though I won’t play it
11:01:47  <Wolf01> Train fever, as transport fever is just a train fever with ships and aircrafts, had some of these bug fixed, like the terrain filling half of the tunnel entrances
11:02:59  <__ln__> the plural of aircraft is aircraft unless you work in the airplane industry
11:03:36  <Wolf01> Oh, really?
11:03:40  <andythenorth> airplanes
11:03:56  <__ln__> yeah, really
11:05:38  <Wolf01> I always used aircraft as synonym of airplane
11:06:19  * andythenorth ponders a better OpenTTD
11:06:25  <andythenorth> something like:
11:06:39  <andythenorth> - all vehicles inherently moddable in game by player (as a type, not individually)
11:06:57  <andythenorth> - not much focus on cities or landscape
11:07:13  <andythenorth> - optional ‘drive the vehicles’ stupid mode
11:07:21  <Wolf01> You want a puzzle game?
11:07:22  <andythenorth> - voxels
11:07:49  <andythenorth> I had the idea before I saw Scrap Mechanic, but eh, something like Scrap Mechanic, but with a fleet of vehicles, and goals
11:08:01  <andythenorth> http://www.scrapmechanic.com/
11:08:43  <andythenorth> Scrap Mechanic + Euro Truck Simulator + Transport Tycoon
11:10:22  <Wolf01> That looks nice
11:11:39  <andythenorth> X + Y + Z is the worst way to explain any creative concept, ever :D
11:11:45  <__ln__> Wolf01: an aircraft can be a helicopter or a balloon
11:15:51  <Wolf01> Yes, all bops are flytz and all flytz are zops, but not all zops are bops
11:16:48  <lorran78> sorry i was afk eating :p
11:20:17  <andythenorth> eh so the roads I want in Hog are probably not the dirt roads some people envisage
11:20:31  <andythenorth> should I use HAUL? :P
11:20:47  <Wolf01> Maybe is better
11:21:13  <andythenorth> https://sites.google.com/site/mininginfosite/miner-s-toolbox/materials-handling/truck-haulage/haul-road-design-guidelines
11:22:37  <andythenorth> the local milk truck is not allowed on a haul road
11:23:40  <andythenorth> 300t trucks doing 45mph don’t mix with small types
11:26:29  <andythenorth> http://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/No-Driving-Zone-mod.jpg
11:27:52  <Wolf01> Totally truck's fault, it's always truck's fault
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11:29:38  <lorran78> re :)
11:32:06  <lorran78> i can't find all downloaded grf from inside ottd :/
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11:43:15  <lorran78> found !
11:43:40  <lorran78> i am now sure that i test my grf and the first train is always in 1925
11:43:48  <lorran78> what have i done wrong?
11:49:39  <lorran78> i tested 1935 for the kirby but it's same windows first vehicule in 1925...
11:49:57  <lorran78> my command should work or not in the pnml?
11:58:15  <Alberth> pnml is collected into nml
11:58:19  <Alberth> open the nml file to check
11:58:48  <Alberth> I'd say the change is not working, something else is needed
11:59:12  <Alberth> unfortunately, I have no idea what, you need someone that understand newgrfs and/or nml better
11:59:33  <lorran78> hum okay :)
11:59:39  <lorran78> suppose noone here can help?
11:59:52  <andythenorth> there will be an nml file somewhere
11:59:56  <andythenorth> compiled from the pnml
12:00:06  <andythenorth> open that, and search for ‘1935’
12:00:44  <lorran78> if i have good memory alberth told me that there was no "introduction_date" in the pnml
12:00:49  <lorran78> it must be added
12:00:53  <lorran78> so i can't find it
12:00:54  <andythenorth> plausible
12:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: you need to install all of MinGW, not just "make"...
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12:01:33  <lorran78> hum? all?
12:01:49  <lorran78> i checked base for mingw and msys base too
12:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you need the compiler
12:02:15  <Eddi|zuHause> or at least the preprocessor of the compiler
12:02:21  <lorran78> ok then i check what?
12:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and it must be in your path
12:02:58  <andythenorth> quak
12:03:50  <lorran78> i put all in path
12:03:53  <lorran78> like explain here :
12:04:03  <lorran78> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Setting_up_a_Windows_compile_environment
12:06:49  <lorran78> eddi ?
12:07:00  <lorran78> i must check all in mingw then?
12:07:59  <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: no, it's probably not in your PATH
12:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> check at the end of that page under "common errors"
12:09:34  <frosch123> moin
12:12:27  <lorran78> i am reading and reading and i don't see what is wrong :/
12:15:34  <lorran78> i think the cc command is the problem
12:15:45  <lorran78> if i delete the nml it is missing
12:16:42  <lorran78> what line must i change to use gcc and not cc?
12:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> what happens when you type "gcc -v" at the bash prompt?
12:21:16  <lorran78> i test
12:21:26  <lorran78> work good
12:22:16  <lorran78> should i let the pnml which is not in src folder?
12:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and when you type "cc -v"?
12:22:49  <lorran78> not found
12:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> then try "CC=gcc make"
12:23:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: if you want less crap test grf http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8240/road-hog.tar
12:23:43  <andythenorth> currently splits trams / electric trams
12:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> (note that capital C are important)
12:23:53  <andythenorth> although that might need rethinking w.r.t label and name
12:24:07  <lorran78> in dos prompt?
12:24:22  <lorran78> not possible "CC=gcc make"
12:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no, in bash
12:24:33  <lorran78> oh
12:24:58  <lorran78> launch waiting :p
12:30:25  <lorran78> i have new nml !
12:30:32  <lorran78> i test if it's ok :p
12:31:23  <lorran78> strange mine is smaller with all my new commands :)
12:31:37  <lorran78> i launch make --makefile makefile now for the grf
12:33:45  <lorran78> works !!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:34:19  <lorran78> i must use bash to use gcc when cc is usefull?
12:37:37  <lorran78> i had questions
12:37:51  <lorran78> is there a size limit for the cities?
12:38:55  <Alberth> all tiles of the map?
12:39:20  <lorran78> and is there a way to build non destructible buildings (i don't really want to use cheat code to destroy industries)
12:39:24  <lorran78> maybe? :)
12:40:52  <Alberth> I don't understand how "build" and "destroy" can be combined like that :)
12:40:59  <lorran78> lol
12:41:27  <lorran78> build transmiter (i think it's the name in english version)
12:41:42  <lorran78> or lighthouse
12:41:49  <Alberth> at least in the scenario editor
12:41:55  <Alberth> in-game, I don't know
12:41:59  <lorran78> okay :)
12:42:09  <Alberth> but you can build objects if you load an object grf
12:42:33  <lorran78> and i found a grf to modify industries mechanic
12:42:39  <lorran78> but it doesn't work :/
12:42:56  <lorran78> Modify_industries.grf
12:43:05  <Alberth> never heard of it
12:43:09  <lorran78> it does nothing
12:43:16  <lorran78> hum ok
12:43:18  <Alberth> unlikely :p
12:44:08  <Alberth> there is FIRS, ECS, and Yeti as alternative industry sets
12:44:31  <andythenorth> and manual industries, SPI, and Oz Industries
12:44:38  <andythenorth> and PBI
12:44:41  <Alberth> and opengfx+industries
12:44:54  <andythenorth> wow, industry sets we have :D
12:44:59  <andythenorth> canadian industries also :P
12:46:44  <andythenorth> “Haul Road” or “Heavy Haul Road”?
12:46:58  <andythenorth> the shorter one is used IRL, but longer more obvious to player?
12:50:10  <Wolf01> Remind me to spin off you grf :)
12:51:47  <andythenorth> ho NRT types show in main toolbar menu even if no vehicles :)
12:54:33  <Wolf01> We know
12:54:57  <Wolf01> I should fix that, report a bug XD
12:56:09  <andythenorth> if we tell players where the RATT build is, and where the bug tracker is
12:56:14  <andythenorth> we can avoid that work :P :)
12:57:08  * andythenorth thinks santa claus might bring a forum post
13:00:21  <Wolf01> I'm not sure about that
13:01:29  <Wolf01> I don't want suddenly people trying to make grfs with no specs and then blame us because something changed
13:03:11  <frosch123> yay, regression no longer crashes. but there is still a different result for some bridge construction
13:04:22  <Wolf01> frosch123, about the default tram, shouldn't we hardcode 2 different trams, one w/o catenary and one with?
13:04:48  <frosch123> plausible
13:05:17  <frosch123> same for road then?
13:05:28  <frosch123> ROAD ELRD TRAM ELTM
13:05:46  <Wolf01> I think not, we don't have ELRD currently
13:06:12  <frosch123> we also do not have TRAM then
13:06:31  <andythenorth> Wolf01: don’t tell them where the nml fork is :)
13:06:31  <Wolf01> But we have TRAM vehicles mixed with ELTM
13:06:52  <Wolf01> Like the early ELRL
13:06:54  <frosch123> default ottd has no trams at all :p
13:07:16  <frosch123> Wolf01: there is no way to fix existing grfs, so what do you try to achieve?
13:07:16  <andythenorth> if it’s TRAM and ELTM then ROAD and ELRD are entailed I think
13:07:17  <Wolf01> But we have existing grfs :P
13:07:33  <Wolf01> Eh, nothing :P
13:07:36  <andythenorth> urgh, I changed ELTM to ELTR because I kept mistyping it
13:07:44  <andythenorth> ELTRM doesn’t compile :P
13:07:56  <Wolf01> Just I find ugly to have ELTM as default
13:08:22  <Wolf01> andythenorth, label is 32 bit, 8 bits per char.. 4?
13:09:15  <frosch123> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Railtypes#Rail_type_label_.2808.29 <- it should be somewhat consistent with railtypes :)
13:10:02  <frosch123> one could also call it DFLT and ELEC
13:10:11  <frosch123> same labels for road and tram subtypes
13:10:23  <frosch123> but meh
13:11:37  <andythenorth> it’s just a reference eh :)
13:11:47  <andythenorth> whatever it is needs to be easy to type
13:11:54  * andythenorth wondered about CATT (catenary tram)
13:11:56  <andythenorth> :P
13:12:19  <frosch123> anyway, exisiting tram grfs should default to electrified tram track
13:12:35  <frosch123> people can always toggle the transparency setting if they hate catenary
13:13:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, electric tram should be just "TRAM"
13:13:32  <frosch123> no, that's stupid
13:13:44  <frosch123> what would non-electrified tram then be?
13:14:12  <andythenorth> UNTR
13:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> well, let me rephrase that... if ANYTHING should be "TRAM", then it should be electric tram
13:14:19  <andythenorth> no TRAM? o_O
13:14:36  <__ln__> what about an electrified tram that doesn't have catenary?
13:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that would be WTRM (weird tram)
13:15:35  <Wolf01> Third rail tram
13:15:38  <Wolf01> TRTM
13:16:05  <__ln__> no, not third rail
13:16:16  <__ln__> for the record, the tram in Sevilla: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5144/5742728639_e7a3e721d5_b.jpg
13:16:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i think there's a tram in belgium that only uses the two rails for power
13:16:28  <andythenorth> there’s one in Bordeaux that switches
13:16:34  <andythenorth> catenary / underground rail
13:16:43  <frosch123> btw. it is not required that all labels contain "RD" or "TM"
13:16:44  <Wolf01> I never paid attention, but in some cities we use that too
13:16:55  <frosch123> we already know that the labels refer to road or tram :)
13:17:29  <Wolf01> What about removing "EL*" totally and place catenary as infrastructure? (also on railroad)
13:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there were also some tests with induction, where you basically have the third rail underground
13:18:09  <Wolf01> Grfs might define if catenary can be built later, or not built at all, and what's the aspect
13:18:36  <frosch123> Wolf01: that fails just on the next door with 3rd rail and voltage levels and whatever stuff
13:18:43  <__ln__> the tram in Sevilla is battery-powered on a portion of its route
13:18:50  <frosch123> we already tried separate catenary, and it failed
13:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i fear that digs too dep into already existing infrastructure/UI
13:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but that doesn't need a new tracktype...
13:19:44  <frosch123> also it does not fix anything about the label problem
13:19:48  <andythenorth> that’s just ‘powered'
13:20:05  <Wolf01> I started roadtypes with that idea in mind, that was the "catenary flag" which got removed
13:20:27  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i guess not, but it needs a tram type which needs to have catenary on some parts of the route.
13:20:32  <frosch123> it merely adds another label for catenary type
13:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i think a flag falls short... you need new bits for catenary type and catenary trackbits
13:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: because people will want to differentiate 25kV AC, 15kV AC, 3kV DC, ...
13:21:59  <Wolf01> Yes, in my implementation the entire tile was powered regardless of bits (or better the same track bits)
13:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (not that there are any 25kV trams)
13:23:34  * andythenorth is confused
13:23:36  <__ln__> (are you sure?)
13:23:44  <andythenorth> we just need two labels eh? :D
13:23:51  <frosch123> yep :)
13:23:58  <andythenorth> steam trams look silly with catenary up
13:24:59  <lorran78> anyway thx for help i am happy because it works :p
13:24:59  <Wolf01> Also steam trains running on elrails
13:25:30  <__ln__> http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/sheffield-rotherham-tram-train-pilot-south-yorkshire/sheffield-rotherham-tram-train-pilot-south-yorkshire2.html
13:26:52  <andythenorth> frosch123: it’s light rail eh?  Can I just use ‘RAIL’ and ‘ELRL’? :) :P
13:27:28  <frosch123> i like that :)
13:28:21  <Wolf01> At least until you start making road+rail grfs
13:28:28  <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels
13:28:34  <Wolf01> If that's will even be possible
13:28:41  <andythenorth> then that whole tedious bunfight about labels is mostly done already
13:28:49  <andythenorth> and nobody has to ‘quit the community’ over labels :P
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13:29:42  <frosch123> most labels abbreviate "RAIL" with "R", which also works for "ROAD" :)
13:30:11  <andythenorth> 'narrow gauge road’
13:30:22  <frosch123> happens a lot
13:30:32  <frosch123> not navigateable by articulated vehicles
13:31:33  <Wolf01> I'm still expecting canalroad/wetroad
13:32:05  <andythenorth> electric canal
13:32:25  <andythenorth> ho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_inclined_plane
13:32:29  <frosch123> canal is cominable with overhead-tram
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13:37:36  <Wolf01> Ha!
13:38:26  <andythenorth> so I should change RH to use RAIL and ELRL eh?
13:39:01  <frosch123> ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL ?
13:39:36  <andythenorth> +1
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14:25:50  <Wolf01> I've been staring at VS for 1 hour...
14:26:24  <frosch123> maybe listen to AS for the next hour then
14:27:03  <V453000> ASS
14:28:25  <Wolf01> Time to do somethinh, like fixing non-drive-through roadstops or disabling building menu if no vehicle has been found
14:28:44  <frosch123> pull before you do that
14:29:08  <frosch123> i think i did both :p
14:29:14  <Wolf01> Lol
14:31:16  <Wolf01> Ok, there's still this one: https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/issues/15
14:32:00  <Wolf01> Missing a diagdir somewhere
14:32:14  <frosch123> you need to check the command callback for that
14:32:29  <frosch123> it likely extracts the direction from p1 and p2, which got changed
14:35:50  <Wolf01> Let's try changing a random 6 to a 3
14:36:25  <Wolf01> Seem to work
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14:53:14  <andythenorth> so eh
14:53:31  <andythenorth> how do I make some vehicles compatible to both ROAD and HAUL?
14:53:35  <Wolf01> Mmmh, why I can't merge from ratt? It says it's already up to date... how it can be?
14:53:41  <andythenorth> I have to define a third type, which provides the compatibility?
14:54:02  <Wolf01> Or define HAUL as compatible with road?
14:54:22  <frosch123> it depends whether all HAUL vehicles are compatible, or just one
14:54:27  <Wolf01> But you don't want milk delivery trucks to run on it
14:54:32  <andythenorth> HAUL vehicles are HAUL only
14:54:39  <andythenorth> ROAD vehicles are ROAD only
14:54:44  <andythenorth> but Supplies Trucks can go on both
14:55:00  <frosch123> OFFR then
14:55:26  <andythenorth> ok, and I don’t need to define that as an actual type?
14:55:34  <andythenorth> just put it in the relevant compatibility props?
14:55:50  <Wolf01> I'm still of the idea ROAD vehs are compatible with all types (mainly for compatibility), maybe not for wetroads
14:56:26  <andythenorth> no schoolbuses on my mining road :P
14:56:38  <andythenorth> maybe I miss something, dunno
14:56:51  <Wolf01> And if I want to build a school near the mine?
14:56:53  <frosch123> i am not entirely sure :)
14:58:30  <Wolf01> Also I want roads traversable only for certain vehicles, like only buses but no freight vehicles
14:59:02  <andythenorth> I never did understand railtypes compatibility :D
14:59:06  <Wolf01> So I'll shit them on all the cities to keep trucks outside
14:59:15  <andythenorth> oh like a city truck ban? o_O
14:59:19  <Wolf01> Yes
14:59:29  * andythenorth considered something like that before
14:59:38  <andythenorth> I thought it might be too restrictive to be fun, but yeah
14:59:41  <andythenorth> no trucks in towns
14:59:45  <andythenorth> would be a thing
14:59:49  <Wolf01> I hate when 40+ trucks pile up behing a bus
15:00:00  <Wolf01> *behind
15:00:07  <andythenorth> not sure how it would be done
15:00:14  <Wolf01> Neither do I
15:00:16  <Wolf01> :D
15:00:21  <andythenorth> ideally, persuade towns to build a dedicated town roadtype :P
15:00:33  <Wolf01> With dynamite?
15:01:00  <Wolf01> Most of my towns don't even own their roads :P
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15:01:31  <frosch123> so that would enforce servicing shops and bank by helicopter?
15:02:31  <Wolf01> Maybe you can just leave *some* roads to be used
15:02:40  <Wolf01> But not every single road
15:03:45  <andythenorth> exception for town trucks
15:04:01  <Wolf01> Define town trucks
15:04:17  <andythenorth> mail, armoured, food, building materials, goods, beer
15:04:22  <andythenorth> :P
15:04:49  <Wolf01> Eh.. and if I make a goods truck with a 300t one?
15:05:13  <Wolf01> Max speed 12kmh
15:05:29  <Wolf01> Threaded
15:07:10  <Wolf01> The problem might be when an industry near the town will be eaten as the town grows, but since it's you which make "no-truck" roads, it's your fault if you wall in the industry
15:08:32  <Wolf01> I would give a look on 4 lanes roads, sure it will break all the graphics and might need transition tiles for other roadtypes
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15:12:40  <Wolf01> Ok, synced the convert-road branch
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15:13:44  <andythenorth> compatibility breaks my brain
15:13:54  <andythenorth> I’m sure Eddi explained to me once that it isn’t possible
15:17:06  <Wolf01> Yes, I know -> TODO: check for roadtype compatibility
15:18:21  <andythenorth> I have NFI how to have a vehicle that can go on multiple labels
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15:18:33  <andythenorth> as vehicle compatibility is defined by the type, not by the vehicle
15:18:53  <andythenorth> so I have to define some ‘universal’ road or something