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Log for #openttd on 14th January 2017:
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01:20:58  <supermop> yo
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01:27:21  <supermop> guess I should finally get around to buying tf
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04:29:33  <MonkeyDrone> o/ anyone knows why OpenTTD is limited to max 512mb cache and hard coded to that limit? and if possible to increase it in a custom compile?
04:35:56  <supermop> I THINK
04:36:36  <supermop> everyone who knows is asleep
04:37:06  <supermop> sorry I'm using a style too write
04:38:04  <supermop> * stylus
04:56:48  <MonkeyDrone> thanks supermop, i figured as well
04:57:00  <MonkeyDrone> i'll check in again later :D
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07:58:10  <andythenorth> o/
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08:16:30  <Alberth> o/
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10:21:51  <__ln__> @foresee Bjarni
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10:38:05  <Wolf01> o/
10:39:30  <Alberth> o/
10:40:02  <__ln__> \o_
10:41:03  <__ln__> as a follow-up to last night's discussion, can we agree to use imperial units only on this channel, as the channel is English only
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10:47:01  <Alberth> /me adds many stones per square foot
10:48:26  <Wolf01> Pfff, let's measure in cubits
10:54:30  <V453000> voxels soon ?
10:54:49  <Wolf01> Not that kind of "bits"
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11:07:11  <andythenorth> catbits
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11:33:54  <Alberth> hola
11:34:48  <frosch123> hoi
11:36:21  <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: the limit is not 512 megabyte, but 512 megapixels. that is equal to a limit of 2 gigabyte. the limit is 2 gigabyte, because openttd did not drop 32bit platforms, and the code has no 64bit specific code either
11:41:44  <frosch123> Alberth: openttd does not yet fall back to openttd.grf gui sprites. but i actually wanted to add just that this weekend :)
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11:43:57  * frosch123 wonders about the target audience of the sam topic
11:44:42  <andythenorth> I think I found it
11:44:48  <frosch123> i think andy had to fill in the url field in the source documentation
11:51:24  <andythenorth> ach, processing ships with PIL is slow
11:52:37  <andythenorth> lots of pixel scanning
11:55:34  <Alberth> what other gui sprite can be missing then?
11:56:28  <frosch123> the newest gui sprite is the unused pure-black recolour sprite for more heightlevels
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11:56:59  <frosch123> if you think "unused sprite" is a pretty stupid reason to print a message "update your baseset"...
11:57:13  <frosch123> then yes, that is pretty much still the state of mhl after 2 years
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12:14:18  <Alberth> oh, don't know, it's a fair assumption that defined sprites are also used, imho
12:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> why is that sprite not used?
12:30:38  <frosch123> because there is a speical blitter mode to draw pure black
12:31:11  <frosch123> it has always been present for 32bpp blitter, since the normal recolouring does not work for 32bpp obviously
12:31:17  <frosch123> but i think 8bpp blitters also gained them
13:01:08  <MonkeyDrone> frosch123: ah thanks for the info, i do get this when i run the game and it tells me this. any ideas why? http://i.imgur.com/cp4y0KV.png
13:01:56  <frosch123> that means you are running a 32bpp version of openttd, on a computer with very little memory
13:02:04  <MonkeyDrone> i've plenty of ram available
13:02:32  <MonkeyDrone> so abase is limiting the performance of ottd?
13:02:58  <frosch123> if you think you have enough physical memory, then try downloading the 64bit version of openttd
13:03:04  <MonkeyDrone> hmmm, it doens't have abase loaded up, it's using openGFX
13:03:05  <frosch123> apparently you have the 32bit version
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13:03:15  <frosch123> or you are running windows me or something
13:03:17  <MonkeyDrone> yes, i am runnign the 32bit , let me check 64bit
13:04:06  <MonkeyDrone> ok no notifications ont he 64bit.
13:04:57  <MonkeyDrone> i'm trying to figure out why the game starts to lag on Server2 of OTTD.
13:05:46  <Alberth> server wouldn't need 32bit graphics
13:06:15  <MonkeyDrone> server doens't have 32bpp on it
13:06:28  <MonkeyDrone> could it be that the server is running a 32bit version of the server?
13:08:23  <MonkeyDrone> anyway i can check that client-side?
13:09:03  <MonkeyDrone> the client i'm using for them is a 64bit , i don't get any warnings on startup, but the game fps is pretty horrible dragging around while zoomed out on a decent level
13:12:59  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27729 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2017-01-14 14:12:49 +0100 )
13:13:00  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Do not count static NewGRF when checking for the maximum number of NewGRFs in a game.
13:13:01  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Remove LAST_GRF_SLOT and MAX_NEWGRFS. Now NETWORK_MAX_GRF_COUNT is the only constant to specify the maximum number of non-static NewGRF.
13:13:02  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Increase the number of file slots, effectively increasing the maximum number of static NewGRF and baseset GRFs.
13:13:14  <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: 32/64bit really only makes a difference for graphics
13:13:29  <MonkeyDrone> roger that frosch123, so any opinions on why the game lags then?
13:13:59  <MonkeyDrone> could the custom grfs be causing the performance to drop?
13:14:04  <frosch123> well, does your computer run at 100% cpu for openttd?
13:14:22  <MonkeyDrone> nope, 30%
13:14:36  <Alberth> multiplied by how many cores?
13:14:36  <frosch123> if your computer is too slow to keep up with the server, it will skip updating the screen in an attempt to catch up
13:14:49  <MonkeyDrone> hmmm, latency would be an issue then here?
13:14:55  <frosch123> if it has to skip frames continuously, it will appear as lag
13:15:10  <MonkeyDrone> let me check the ping to the servers, one minute
13:15:27  <MonkeyDrone> cause some people did say it runs well for them while it doesn't for me
13:15:49  <frosch123> yes, that is the usual case when your computer is too slow, but the other ones are not yet
13:15:49  <Alberth> you have 4 cores?
13:16:22  <MonkeyDrone> 160 ping, so its pretty normal for me to Europe from here. Fiber internet. and Core i5 6th gen.
13:16:29  <MonkeyDrone> just got this laptop last month
13:16:51  <Alberth> newer laptop != faster
13:17:08  <frosch123> just like for trains :)
13:17:12  <MonkeyDrone> aye, let me get the benchmark on the cpu :P
13:17:22  <andythenorth> there are too many other factors
13:17:25  <Alberth> how many cores do you have?
13:17:39  <andythenorth> OpenTTD gets slower for the last few laptops I bought
13:17:58  <MonkeyDrone> Intel Core i5-6200U @ 2.30GHz
13:18:03  <Alberth> 30% is normally measured over all cores, so at 30% you have 1 running 100% (ie OpenTTD) and 3 idle
13:18:18  <Alberth> for 4 cores
13:18:35  <MonkeyDrone> hmmm, good point Alberth. Let me see if I can get per core usage threads
13:19:00  <andythenorth> there might be a CPU meter per core
13:19:00  <MonkeyDrone> none of them is at 100%
13:19:19  <andythenorth> I have never seen OpenTTD peg my CPU to 100%
13:19:22  <frosch123> anyone knows whether ottd supports some platform with 8.3 filenames?
13:19:40  <Alberth> dos? / win9
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13:20:07  <__ln__> win9 isn't a platform with 8.3 names.
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13:20:15  <frosch123> language files also seem to use longer filenames
13:20:19  <Alberth> __ln__: underlying dos is
13:20:19  <MonkeyDrone> well i know it's not my hardware, 160ms ping latency affects it then that could be the only thing affecting me?
13:20:22  <frosch123> so, i guess using a longer name for the baseset is fine
13:20:56  <__ln__> Alberth: that's irrelevant from an application's perspective.
13:21:06  <andythenorth> MonkeyDrone: it might be that your laptop is too new
13:21:14  <MonkeyDrone> lol andy
13:21:19  <andythenorth> I am serious
13:21:36  <Alberth> good point
13:21:44  <MonkeyDrone> oh, how would that affect this?
13:21:54  <Alberth> video bandwidth is decreasing
13:21:55  <andythenorth> nobody knows for sure
13:22:06  <andythenorth> what GPU do you have?
13:22:06  <MonkeyDrone> well i'm on windows 10 but you know what
13:22:19  <MonkeyDrone> i'll install ubuntu and test to see if it has anything to do with windows
13:23:12  <MonkeyDrone> are there any other settings i need to be aware of that affects performance?
13:23:26  <Alberth> openttd runs the video display at the cpu, and sends the pictures to the video, the latter becomes slower, as the common pattern is that the gpu does computing, and talking to video
13:23:50  <Alberth> disable animation is one
13:24:08  <andythenorth> try enabling / disabling animation
13:24:15  <andythenorth> you might get massive artefacts (black patches)
13:24:19  <andythenorth> which may or may not disappear
13:24:41  <andythenorth> ffwd doesn’t, if I turn on animation, but I have different OS, vendor, CPU, dunno about GPU
13:24:48  <MonkeyDrone> well the cpu would be na issue if it was running at 100%
13:24:54  <MonkeyDrone> but its more near 60% on a thread
13:26:08  <MonkeyDrone> disabling full detail and animation help a bit but still the lag is pretty bad.
13:26:25  <MonkeyDrone> i'll run a live version of Ubuntu and check the game out
13:26:48  <andythenorth> ha, with full animation on, openttd does peg my CPU to 100%
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13:29:31  <MonkeyDrone> ok, i found a live usb for ubuntu 16.04. i'll be back soon
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13:41:01  <supermop> yo
13:43:19  <__ln__> tú
13:43:26  <supermop> andy has made a forum topic i see
13:44:14  <supermop> full animation works fine on my surface and worked fine on my 6 year old i7 before
13:44:31  <supermop> maybe its a mac thing?
13:44:39  <andythenorth> it’s a mac thing
13:44:41  <andythenorth> afaict
13:44:59  <andythenorth> there are reports from other projects that use things like X11
13:45:15  <andythenorth> the mac perfomance is 5-15x worse than linux on equivalent hardware
13:45:31  <andythenorth> maybe Apple crippled a legacy API
13:45:42  <supermop> I used to play on a mbp and then mba around 2012-2014
13:45:55  <supermop> cant recall if I had it turned on then
13:54:00  <Alberth> ever made the water stop moving back and forth?
13:55:07  <MonkeyDrone> ok, i tested it on Ubuntu 16.04 x64. Ran way smoother, still some minor lag when fully zoomed out but difference of day and night
13:55:24  <MonkeyDrone> damn you windows =O
13:55:27  <Alberth> also, the number of grf filename copies in a running program is amazing :)
13:57:39  <__ln__> is the mac version using OpenGL for drawing nowadays or not?
14:01:39  <MonkeyDrone> well ottd doesn't want to use the gfx at all even though i told it to, guess it makes no calls to the gpu at all.
14:02:09  <MonkeyDrone> any performance increases from 1.6.0 to 1.6.1?
14:03:11  <supermop> andythenorth: not begging for coders yet
14:04:16  <andythenorth> __ln__: not afaik
14:05:58  <__ln__> that would probably be the way to make performance issues go away.
14:07:02  <supermop> playing a late steam game of IH for once here
14:07:10  <MonkeyDrone> oh well, guess not much can be done with what the situation is now.
14:07:41  <MonkeyDrone> the server is running 1.6.0 build. Time will tell how things work out with 1.6.1
14:08:46  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1106260#p1106260
14:08:59  <andythenorth> simutrans has same issues on OS X
14:09:51  <supermop> hmm get 5 more crates on a flatbed than a supplies car, but it doesn't look as cool
14:10:23  <MonkeyDrone> thanks for all the help everyone. Will keep you all posted whenever 1.6.1 server goes into action in a few weeks.
14:13:02  <andythenorth> yair, I think I have the same issue prissi reports for simutrans
14:13:16  <andythenorth> I’ve seen that post before, just couldn’t remember which $someone had explained it
14:44:14  <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/orig_extra.diff <- split openttd.grf into openttd.grf and orig_extra.grf
14:44:33  <frosch123> the former providing all the action5 sprites which outdated basesets may lack
14:44:48  <frosch123> the latter providing sprites which only make sense with original graphics
14:45:05  <frosch123> (the latter being essentially optional)
14:45:59  <frosch123> i need some cool name for the grfs though
14:46:24  <frosch123> "baseset extra graphics" and "core extra graphics" or something?
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14:57:50  <Alberth> you can explicitly forbid parallelism between targets? :o
14:58:21  <frosch123> yes, with "|" you can add order-only prerequisited
14:58:36  <Alberth> wow :)
14:58:39  <frosch123> they do not force a rebuild of the target, but if both are built they enforce a sequence
15:03:59  <Alberth> seems fine to me
15:04:28  <Alberth> "original additions"  ?
15:04:54  <Alberth> original refinements :)
15:05:10  <Alberth> original enhancements
15:05:53  <frosch123> "OpenTTD's default extra graphics" and "Original baseset extra graphics" ?
15:06:25  <Alberth> -default?
15:06:29  <Alberth> not sure what it means
15:06:46  <frosch123> it provides default graphics in case an out-dated baseset does not provide them
15:07:02  <Alberth> sort of fall-back
15:07:21  <frosch123> "OpenTTD's fallback graphics" ?
15:07:47  <Alberth> OpenTTD's additional graphics
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15:07:58  <Alberth> both are fine imho
15:08:22  <Alberth> I can live with "default extra" too
15:09:24  <Alberth> while trying to make accessing a tarfile more clean, it seems we get a pair of names from the tar-file list down to grfconfig and grfile
15:09:53  <Alberth> I am wondering whether to make a class for that, with std::string, and std::sharedptr to it
15:10:12  <Alberth> which would remove all the local copying of filenames that happens now
15:10:37  <frosch123> std::string sounds good :)
15:10:48  <frosch123> no idea whether the compile farm supports shared_ptr
15:11:00  <frosch123> probably it doesn't :/
15:11:17  <Alberth> hmm, it was added in c++11 I guess
15:11:23  <Alberth> bit too new
15:11:39  <michi_cc> std::pair?
15:11:43  <frosch123> but the glibc implementation of std::string does share data
15:12:15  <frosch123> hmm, "glibc" is probably the wrong name, but i mean the std::string that comes with g++
15:12:45  <Alberth> isn't glibc the gnome lib?
15:12:58  <frosch123> Alberth: what are the two parts of the pair?
15:13:03  <frosch123> absolute path and short name?
15:13:32  <Alberth> tarfilename (optional), and the filename (relative to search path)
15:13:34  <frosch123> gnu, gimp, gnome :) all are "g"
15:13:41  <Alberth> too many g  :p
15:13:49  <frosch123> ah, path to tar, and path inside tar?
15:13:53  <Alberth> yes
15:14:04  <Alberth> the tarfileentry thingie, mostly
15:14:12  <Alberth> although that has more fields
15:14:21  <frosch123> yes, sounds good for a separate struct :)
15:14:33  <frosch123> no std::pair, since "first" and "second" tells nothing :)
15:15:01  <Alberth> indeed, it will get stored and such, it's not temporary data
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15:48:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27730 /trunk (17 files in 6 dirs) (2017-01-14 16:48:19 +0100 )
15:48:28  <DorpsGek> -Change: Split openttd.grf into openttd.grf and orig_extra.grf
15:48:29  <DorpsGek>   openttd.grf is now always loaded and provides all extra graphics in case the (possibly outdated) baseset does not.
15:48:30  <DorpsGek>   orig_extra.grf contains graphics specific to the original baseset only.
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16:06:00  <supermop> hmm eur seems cheap right now
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17:54:03  <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/basesetmessage.png <- slightly less annoying, right?
17:54:36  <frosch123> how to word the message, so that people do not run to flyspray, if there is no update to their unmaintained baseset?
17:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause> why not skip the message altogether?
17:55:09  <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/basesetandtranslationmessage.png <- the translator message did not spawn annoyances yet
17:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ok..
17:55:55  <frosch123> oh, the translator message only shows in nightly, beta and rc
17:55:58  <frosch123> but not in releases
17:56:04  <frosch123> maybe that's an option here too
17:57:51  <frosch123> is it "updates for the baseset" or "updates to the baseset"?
18:00:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27731 /trunk (8 files in 2 dirs) (2017-01-14 19:00:02 +0100 )
18:00:10  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r27730): Missed some sprites which also belong into orig_extra.grf
18:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, no idea
18:04:14  <frosch123> __ln__: your chance to be useful
18:05:27  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pq0jfvbnu?/pq0jfvbnu <- anyway, replacing the old popup with a new less annyoing message, which only shows in non-releases
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18:30:33  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27732 /trunk/src (68 files in 6 dirs) (2017-01-14 19:30:26 +0100 )
18:30:34  <DorpsGek> -Change: Turn the message about 'missing baseset sprites' from a popup into a static message that only shows in non-release versions, just like the 'missing translations' message.
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18:44:46  <Alberth> frosch123: doesn't the diff in the paste above line 74 need a "default: return;"  ?
18:45:16  <frosch123> most of our widget switches lack a default case
18:45:33  <frosch123> no idea how valid that is :)
18:45:57  <Alberth> most of our switches there don't have code below it either :)
18:49:57  <Alberth> frosch123: oh, nvm, you initialized the str to avoid that problem, sorry
18:50:05  <frosch123> oh, you wrote "return"... i read "break" :)
18:50:12  <frosch123> anyway, i set str = 0 at the front
18:50:47  <Alberth> yeah, I realized that after typing the message, you may have fixed it that way :)
18:50:58  <Alberth> and indeed :)
19:19:49  <frosch123> Wolf01: andythenorth: i synced nrt with trunk, which means that it can now be played with other basesets, and it will use the new gui sprites from openttd.grf
19:20:18  <andythenorth> :)
19:20:19  <andythenorth> thanks
19:20:27  <Wolf01> Nice :)
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20:05:33  <supermop> yay!
20:06:03  <supermop> I am excited to see my convert tram icon in game
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21:11:42  <drac_boy> sorry to ask this kind of question here but any of you know of any particular online book seller (new books pls) for toward european rail titles especially deutsch ones?
21:12:51  <drac_boy> (I had initially thought about going with Platform 5 from uk some time ago but have been rather put off by their "add 30% to subtotal for shipping" which is just expensive compared to anyone else so..meh!)
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23:41:18  <Wolf01> 'night
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