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The 20°C drop on them at low rpm is well worth it, I think 12:53:55 <Alkel_U3> but I bought the wrong size, so it's anchored only on 1 screw (I really thought the case supports 140mm but it doesn't) 12:55:23 <Wolf01> The fan I removed was 80mm on a 100mm support, with only 1 screw too, I think it started to make noise because of that 12:56:49 <Alkel_U3> yeah, the pulsing noise from that is kinda annoying 12:56:49 <crem> noise is more important than hdd well-being. 12:57:57 <Wolf01> Let's talk about it, I would like to not download again 1.5TB of steam games if the HDD fails 12:58:18 <Alkel_U3> I had to get rid of a defective jet-engine-like GPU so it's still practically quite in comparison :-) 12:59:20 <Alkel_U3> and I would like to not have to recover the photos directory with ddrescue and testdisk, but that's completely my fault for not backing that up 13:00:31 <crem> steam games (and movies, music, etc, although I think nowadays people don't store them) are not things to be worried about. Losing unique data is worse, but that's what backup is for. 13:01:03 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd 13:01:38 <Wolf01> That's why I have a NAS and a backup HDD too, but since I have shitty(tm)-connection I would literally take AGES to download some games 13:03:02 <crem> Local backup is more risky than one might think. :) And not only because of things like house burning odwn. 13:03:05 <Alkel_U3> 1.5 TB of games? Well, that's a lot. I can see myself topping out at around 600 GB if I were on windows. 13:03:24 <crem> I lost all my local backups once when I divorced. :) 13:10:53 *** ConductCat has joined #openttd 13:18:43 *** ConductorCat has quit IRC 13:25:19 <Wolf01> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxbDJlruQ-4 DAMn 13:46:06 <Alkel_U3> has it breached already? 13:46:30 <crem> This 'live' thing is from yesterday. 13:52:36 <Alkel_U3> ah, so it hasn't. Well, that's good. 14:04:43 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 14:22:45 *** Gja has joined #openttd 14:41:31 *** srhnsn has joined #openttd 14:43:35 *** maciozo has joined #openttd 15:04:54 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 15:04:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 15:10:59 *** tokai has quit IRC 15:16:07 <Wolf01> Wake me up when the other animal fellows arrive 15:41:30 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 15:42:34 <supermop__> is andy an animal? 15:42:48 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 15:42:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 15:42:52 <Alberth> hi hi 15:44:09 <andythenorth> all arrive at once 15:44:39 * andythenorth has Steeltown woes still 15:44:52 <andythenorth> I should call it Steeltown Blues :D 15:45:11 <Wolf01> o/ 15:45:11 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:47:10 <Alberth> changes didn't work out? 15:49:56 <andythenorth> nah 15:50:11 <andythenorth> I am being cautious because my test games have SV 15:50:13 <andythenorth> but eh 15:50:46 <andythenorth> in all my games, I needed all the mines on the map just to get enough steel for ENSP to boost the mines 15:51:01 <andythenorth> and the boost wasn’t enough 15:51:24 <andythenorth> feeding the blast furnace chain is kind of like feeding a black hole 15:51:54 <Alberth> :o 15:52:40 <Alberth> and I haven't even considered supplies so far :p 15:53:01 <andythenorth> the other problem is that steel has multiple destinations :) 15:53:09 <Alberth> but trains aren't very powerful either 15:53:10 <andythenorth> but cdist doesn’t work well with multiple destinations 15:53:27 <Alberth> ha :) 15:53:35 * andythenorth biab 15:53:42 <Alberth> see you 15:53:44 <Wolf01> Wasn't that the goal of cdist? 15:53:47 <andythenorth> no 15:53:53 <andythenorth> not afaik :) 15:53:55 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:54:15 *** Sova has quit IRC 15:54:20 <Alberth> I don't really see the problem, it just means you must make a choice where the steel goes to 15:54:27 <Wolf01> Then I should look again at the definition of distribution 15:54:55 <Alberth> maybe andy just likes having automagic transfer orders 16:04:35 *** orudge` has quit IRC 16:05:04 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 16:05:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 16:06:55 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 16:22:58 *** orudge` has quit IRC 16:24:06 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 16:24:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 16:42:21 *** orudge` has quit IRC 16:43:11 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 16:43:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 17:01:24 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 17:01:34 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 17:04:19 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:04:59 <Alberth> lo andy 17:05:10 <andythenorth> o/ 17:06:36 *** ZirconiumX has quit IRC 17:10:57 *** Extrems has joined #openttd 17:13:15 * andythenorth needs to get quicklime without coal 17:13:29 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 17:21:45 <andythenorth> both coal and stone are too contended 17:22:06 <andythenorth> I could increase the industry production rates substantially... 17:23:13 <andythenorth> chemicals is also very contended 17:23:39 <andythenorth> coal: two destinations, both essential to steel chain 17:23:49 <andythenorth> stone: two destinations, both essential to steel chain 17:24:16 <andythenorth> chemicals: four destinations, useful for ENSP chain 17:30:48 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:31:09 <Wolf01> Quak 17:31:47 <frosch123> moi 17:32:30 <Wolf01> frosch123, I wrote some questions about NRT in SE 17:32:31 <Wolf01> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9gqfwiel 17:35:09 *** supermop_ has joined #openttd 17:35:12 * andythenorth ponders 17:35:16 <andythenorth> could.... 17:35:30 <andythenorth> - try and reset the probabilities to give more mines, but likely to fail on small maps 17:35:58 <andythenorth> - cut out the hotels, building yards, stores etc from towns, as they consume a lot of the available industry count 17:36:14 <andythenorth> - make more cargos available at ports (import quicklime? Unrealism, but eh) 17:36:46 <andythenorth> - ignore some realism in required cargos at blast furnace, steel plant 17:39:28 <supermop_> as for last one, isn't bessemer process rivet counting the whole point of steeltown? 17:39:36 <andythenorth> kind of 17:39:43 <andythenorth> but it’s a ballache to actually play, eh? :) 17:39:46 <supermop_> hotel/store etc gets a bit redundant 17:39:50 <andythenorth> lessons in reality never work in FIRS 17:40:17 <supermop_> hotels easy passenger bootstrapping for $ 17:41:25 <andythenorth> +1 17:41:33 <supermop_> but then the passenger flow distracts from building up industries because you've got thousands of morons trying to go to a resort on the outskirts of a shitty village overlooking a slag heap 17:41:34 *** supermop__ has quit IRC 17:41:40 <andythenorth> could cut the coke oven, it’s wasteful of coal 17:41:52 <andythenorth> 8t in = 6t out 17:41:57 <supermop_> steelmaking uses a lot of coal 17:42:19 <supermop_> i'd say burning it in power plants wastes coal that could be making steel 17:42:30 <andythenorth> I could cut food chain, but then Arctic and Tropic are borked 17:42:58 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:43:04 <supermop_> cutting a chain in steeltown needn't cut in tropic? 17:43:05 <V453000> iz? 17:43:57 <andythenorth> can still use Steeltown in Tropic though eh? 17:44:05 <andythenorth> FIRS economy != climate :) 17:44:11 <andythenorth> V453000: iz mess 17:44:12 <andythenorth> fixing 17:44:18 <andythenorth> also dinner time soon 17:44:35 <V453000> mess is nice 17:44:49 <andythenorth> iz boring to play 17:44:58 <andythenorth> especially with cdist 17:45:23 <andythenorth> cdist max 2 destinations per pickup station 17:45:26 <supermop_> andythenorth: tropic needn't have grocery stores 17:45:52 <supermop_> andythenorth: you can kind of get a few more but its tough 17:45:53 <andythenorth> making >1 pickup stations per industry is hard, when also has big delivery station 17:46:05 <andythenorth> supermop_: > 2 just doesn’t work 17:46:08 <andythenorth> like, not working 17:46:16 <supermop_> max 2 pick up stations per industry is the killer 17:46:20 * andythenorth has tested much times 17:46:28 <supermop_> industry will give zero cargo to 3rd station 17:46:41 <andythenorth> this is all fine if you use ships :P 17:46:46 <andythenorth> ships only = no problem :P 17:46:53 <andythenorth> with trains, problem 17:47:06 <supermop_> industry won't serve 3 docks 17:47:50 <andythenorth> fair point 17:49:02 * andythenorth biab 17:49:04 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:56:39 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 17:58:43 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:58:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:01:52 <frosch123> Wolf01: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdxxmzeds 18:06:33 *** Progman has joined #openttd 18:24:56 <Wolf01> Ok, so in SE it whould be a bland copy of the normal toolbar 18:28:51 *** Gja has quit IRC 18:34:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 18:47:34 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 18:54:14 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 18:59:00 *** srhnsn has quit IRC 19:03:50 *** orudge` has quit IRC 19:04:06 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 19:04:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 19:24:01 *** Alberth has left #openttd 19:35:35 *** supermop__ has joined #openttd 19:40:27 *** Gja has joined #openttd 19:41:14 *** supermop_ has quit IRC 20:00:05 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 20:01:19 *** orudge` has quit IRC 20:01:31 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 20:01:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 20:19:14 <andythenorth> supermop: drop the hotel? o_O 20:19:21 <andythenorth> it’s kind of a FIRS trademark :P 20:19:29 * andythenorth thinks it should go from steeltown 20:19:47 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:19:50 <supermop__> from steeltown? who wants to vacation in youngstown 20:19:56 <andythenorth> yair 20:20:01 <andythenorth> businessmen? 20:20:19 <frosch123> people with a secret weakness for steel? 20:20:23 <andythenorth> :P 20:20:24 <andythenorth> or coke 20:20:31 <supermop__> the hotel is nice as a combined blackhole for food and alcohol, but store can do that 20:20:34 * andythenorth can drop alcohol 20:20:47 <supermop__> opiods? 20:20:53 <supermop__> opioids 20:21:19 <andythenorth> coke, slag, heroin? 20:21:41 <supermop__> oxy 20:23:39 <andythenorth> vehicle dealer will never be used 20:23:45 <andythenorth> vehicles can be traded for other things 20:23:52 <andythenorth> no point sending to a black hole 20:24:21 * andythenorth rips it all down 20:27:17 <supermop__> black holes only needed if towns can't process town cargos 20:28:35 <supermop__> even then, if i play a game where gasoline is needed for town growth, i might build a machine shop in town 20:29:16 <andythenorth> so just black holes for food 20:29:22 <andythenorth> and goods, because it’s no harm 20:29:22 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 20:31:01 <supermop__> 'store' 20:31:12 <supermop__> does both 20:31:17 <andythenorth> yup 20:31:22 * andythenorth waits for bundles to build new docs 20:36:13 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 20:36:55 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:41:45 <andythenorth> could run the lime kiln on fuel oil 20:41:51 <andythenorth> saving coal for iron chain 20:44:29 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 20:45:02 <supermop__> would be weird in ohio or yorkshire 20:46:01 <andythenorth> yeahbut 20:46:30 <andythenorth> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Yeah%20but%2C%20no%20but... :) 20:49:40 <andythenorth> eh, the vehicles chain is too intricate 20:49:54 <andythenorth> is it steeltown or motown? :P 20:55:59 *** Progman has quit IRC 20:56:52 *** Arveen has joined #openttd 21:02:33 *** Arveen|Work has quit IRC 21:05:22 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 21:11:30 <supermop__> motown=/steeltown 21:20:46 <andythenorth> there will be no other vehicle economy 21:20:48 <andythenorth> so eh 21:20:58 * andythenorth wondering what to cut 21:23:34 <andythenorth> ah building materials 21:23:35 <andythenorth> can go :) 21:23:36 <andythenorth> yay 21:24:29 <supermop__> yeagh 21:25:19 *** tokai has joined #openttd 21:25:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 21:27:01 <andythenorth> more variety 21:27:05 <andythenorth> less blah 21:34:25 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 21:37:50 <supermop__> bdmt always feel a bit odd unless a GS is needing them 21:40:45 * andythenorth trying to strip town cargos out of steeltown 21:40:52 <andythenorth> some irony probably 21:42:54 <andythenorth> supermop: vehicles currently require: vehicle parts, powertrain components, vehicle bodies 21:42:59 <andythenorth> seems a bit blah blah 21:43:09 <supermop__> strip the town cargos out from 1970 onwards - when the rustbelt economy collapses and people cannot afford town cargos anymore 21:43:14 <andythenorth> :P 21:43:28 * andythenorth considers ‘abandoned steel plant’ industry 21:43:33 <andythenorth> accepts: crack cocaine 21:43:37 <andythenorth> produces: nothing 21:43:39 <andythenorth> black hole 21:43:53 <supermop__> whoa now crack is too coastal elite for steeltown 21:43:58 <supermop__> meth maybe 21:44:26 <andythenorth> it was mostly smack where I lived 21:44:28 <andythenorth> coal mining towns 21:44:34 <andythenorth> crack was inner-city 21:44:53 <supermop__> thing is - car plant is the one thing where the more complex inputs seem correct 21:45:11 <supermop__> but lots of inputs at the top of the chain is a bit frustrating maybe? 21:45:22 <andythenorth> it is 21:45:23 <andythenorth> very 21:46:13 <andythenorth> need to decide whether to keep marine supplies 21:46:21 <andythenorth> then I know if powertrain is good cargo or not 21:46:40 <supermop__> im sure it was different in the uk, but here it seemed like the whole economy from the atlantic ocean to the missippi - and by extension the nation - from 1930 to 1970 21:46:54 <supermop__> was to make and sell as many cars as possible 21:47:28 <supermop__> everything from design, town planning, financial services, etc 21:47:34 <supermop__> designed to sell cars 21:47:55 <supermop__> other industries existed just to give households enough $ to buy two cars 21:48:23 <supermop__> USSR built tanks and we built sedans 21:48:48 <andythenorth> sounds about right 21:49:24 <supermop__> CAD and NURBS / b splines were developed to make curvy sexy cars 21:50:22 <supermop__> but the game might not satisfactorily reward you enough for making cars 21:50:54 <andythenorth> it’s more just that you can’t get enough inputs to do it :) 21:51:15 <supermop__> steeltown should reduce passenger payment the more successful you are at producing cars, so you destroy the market for public transportation 21:51:23 <andythenorth> the chain is too long and the wastage / split ratios are quite harsh 21:51:41 <andythenorth> so 1000s of tonnes iron / coal / stone go into the chain 21:51:48 <andythenorth> and 200t of ENSP comes out 21:52:07 <supermop__> can you inport car parts? 21:52:44 <andythenorth> maybe 21:52:54 <andythenorth> making the parts is ok, can use rubber and stuff 21:53:18 <andythenorth> but need to split iron -> powertrain and iron -> steel -> vehicle bodies 21:53:37 <andythenorth> or scrap -> steel -> vehicle bodies (but scrap yards are low output) 21:57:37 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 21:58:05 <andythenorth> supermop: ‘vehicle bodies’? Or something else? http://www.tatasteeleurope.com/en/products-and-services/services/service-centres/steelpark-auto 21:58:10 <andythenorth> ‘body panels’? 21:58:20 <andythenorth> ‘pressed steel’? 21:58:32 <andythenorth> ‘Galvanised steel parts'? 21:58:47 <supermop__> bodies most generic 21:59:08 <supermop__> are you asking what to call it, or what it should be? 21:59:22 <andythenorth> what to call it 21:59:33 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_Steel_Company 21:59:57 *** gelignite has quit IRC 22:06:39 <supermop__> stamped steel 22:06:55 <supermop__> pressed is fine too 22:07:22 <supermop__> appending 'parts' or 'panels' would be fine too 22:07:48 <andythenorth> think I’ll leave it as vehicle bodies for now 22:07:58 <andythenorth> ‘vehicle bodies’ looks similar to ‘vehicle parts’ 22:08:02 <supermop__> in melb i would always see adds for jobs as a 'panel beater' 22:08:11 <andythenorth> but ‘pressed steel’ looks like ‘steel’ 22:08:12 <andythenorth> so eh :P 22:08:24 <supermop__> which i assumed was someone who operated a hydraulic press 22:08:56 <supermop__> but i liked to imagine as a man beating car panels into shape with a hammer against a wooden form 22:09:17 <supermop__> 'stamped panels'? 22:10:03 <andythenorth> maybe 22:10:08 <andythenorth> comes from ‘metal finishing plant’ now 22:10:13 <andythenorth> along with ‘pipe’ 22:10:40 <supermop__> im not sure what the official US english term is, but i always think of the machine that forms the panel as a 'press' 22:10:50 <andythenorth> sounds right to me 22:10:53 <supermop__> and the action of forming it as 'stamping' 22:11:24 <supermop__> i never worked in a car factory though so i may be way off base 22:11:55 <supermop__> we call lots of tools 'presses' here 22:12:08 <supermop__> the thing that folds sheet metal is a press brake 22:12:32 <supermop__> put holes in the metal with a drill press 22:12:41 <andythenorth> such pressing 22:12:52 <andythenorth> maybe ‘powertrain components’ has to go 22:13:01 <andythenorth> splitting pig iron might be bad 22:13:14 <supermop__> transmissions? 22:13:29 <andythenorth> currently mostly engine blocks 22:13:31 <supermop__> is getting a bit esoteric/motown specific at that point 22:13:37 <andythenorth> iron + non-ferrous metals = powertrain 22:13:44 <andythenorth> could do without it tbh 22:14:07 <supermop__> i appreciate that there is a distinction between rolled, drawn, and cast products 22:14:11 <supermop__> but idk 22:15:00 <supermop__> cast metal is worth it to see crucibles of molten metal about 22:15:12 <supermop__> if you dont get to see it, not sure it is fun 22:15:29 <andythenorth> currently don’t see it 22:15:42 <andythenorth> also ‘powertrain’ is just ‘vehicle parts’ maybe 22:15:42 <supermop__> IH metal cars? 22:15:57 <andythenorth> yes IH metal cars carry the pig iron 22:16:10 <supermop__> yeah an engine is definitely in the realm of a 'part' 22:16:30 <supermop__> unless parts is specifically headlights and plastic 22:16:43 <supermop__> if it is alternators, should be engines too 22:18:19 <andythenorth> that means all pig iron now goes to basic oxygen furnace 22:18:25 <andythenorth> probably better 22:31:37 *** matt11235 has quit IRC 22:40:04 <andythenorth> supermop: stripped it right back http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 22:40:09 <andythenorth> should be more fun now 22:41:06 <supermop__> non-ferrous metals just sort of hanging out there 22:41:19 <andythenorth> oops 22:41:25 <andythenorth> forgot to remove that :) 22:46:40 <Wolf01> 'night 22:46:43 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:48:12 * andythenorth also 22:48:30 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 22:54:26 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:02:20 *** orudge` has quit IRC 23:02:33 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 23:02:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 23:16:59 *** bwn has quit IRC 23:22:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 23:27:47 *** Gja has quit IRC 23:28:54 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:34:03 *** Mazur has quit IRC 23:40:09 *** Mazur has joined #openttd 23:42:51 *** JezK has joined #openttd 23:46:47 *** bwn has joined #openttd