Log for #openttd on 15th April 2017:
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06:11:35  <andythenorth> o/
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06:15:37  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
06:20:36  <quiznilo> if I find I have too many passengers piling up at a station, I collect them all up and take them out to a FIRS fishing ground drop them off
06:20:50  <andythenorth> probably :P
06:21:06  <quiznilo> you have a morbid sense of humor
06:25:08  <quiznilo> claims it accepts passengers... it does not... sad
06:26:49  <andythenorth> tile will, industry won’t
06:26:52  <andythenorth> iirc
06:26:57  * andythenorth checks
06:27:04  <quiznilo> I couldn't even force them off
06:27:41  <andythenorth> station says it accepts
06:28:14  <andythenorth> tile-accepts-but-industry-doesn’t is an edge case, might be odd behaviour there
06:28:16  <quiznilo> caveat, I'm using async cargodest, but I couldn't get passengers to leave the ship
06:28:36  <andythenorth> yeah, maybe it needs the industry acceptance in that case
06:28:45  <andythenorth> or the link isn’t established yet
06:28:58  <andythenorth> oh it’s async
06:29:11  <andythenorth> hmm dunno
06:29:48  <quiznilo> a sandbank is-a oil rig?
06:30:23  <andythenorth> station names are not my department :D
06:30:32  <andythenorth> other people did those
06:30:37  * andythenorth glad about that
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06:47:57  <Alberth> moin
06:49:09  <Alberth> so perhaps "extreme" advantage is freedom in choice?
06:49:13  <andythenorth> maybe
06:49:20  <Alberth> ie not all industries aimed at asingle purpose
06:50:54  <Alberth> hmm, weather-forecast casts we get some sun and some clouds, but so far, clouds win :)
06:51:37  <Alberth> s/casts/says/
06:59:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: FIRS makefile now misses graphviz :)
06:59:31  <andythenorth> previous version L40-47
07:03:19  <Alberth> needs a few more build rules :)
07:04:16  <Alberth> on the other hand, it protects you from the messy economies mess :p
07:07:35  <andythenorth> I’m not sure how frosch’s insane trick works :)
07:13:37  <Alberth> ifeq ($(DOT)$(GVPR),$(GVPR)$(DOT))  <-- this?
07:14:03  <andythenorth> yes
07:14:35  <Alberth> it tests 2 strings for equality, one string is the 'dot' path + the 'gvpr' path, and the other string does the same, but concatenates in reverse order
07:15:00  <Alberth> so if both paths are empty, you compare two empty strings -> equal
07:15:15  <Alberth> if one is empty, you compare the same path -> equal
07:15:27  <Alberth> if both are non-empty, -> not equal
07:15:50  <Alberth> unless 'dot' is the same executable as 'gvpr'  :p
07:16:19  <Alberth> so yeah, quite clever way to check that both paths are non-empty
07:19:26  <Alberth> one path is empty is the tricky one. suppose DOT='dot', and GVPR='' (empty)
07:19:59  <Alberth> ifeq('dot' + '', '' + 'dot)  ---->  if ('dot','dot')   ----> equal
07:20:24  <Alberth> ie you can concatenate the empty string on either side, the result is the same
07:20:45  <andythenorth> oic :)
07:22:08  <andythenorth> wondering if I can copy-paste it
07:22:54  <Alberth> looks very possible
07:23:34  <Alberth> I would probably make it a separate target, but it's not necessary, since you basically want to do it as part of the html-docs build anyway
07:44:07  <andythenorth> hmm
07:51:01  <andythenorth>
07:51:29  <andythenorth> L90 or so here
07:59:01  <Alberth> does it make a difference if you put the ifeq/else/endig against the left margin?
07:59:48  <Alberth> it's not a shell command, you pick one of the sides while constructing the makefile, before it is executed (or rather, while it is executed)
08:00:38  <Alberth> must do some shopping biab
08:01:12  <andythenorth> ok
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08:26:55  <Eddi|zuHause> there haven't been any new posts in the suggestions forum in a week. this game is officially done now.
08:28:39  <Alberth> :D
08:35:29  <andythenorth> it’s pretty close
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09:10:37  <Wolf01> o/
09:11:05  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
09:14:40  <Alberth> o/
09:15:01  <Alberth> bbl
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10:41:28  <Wolf01> Wow, deep learning with R
10:41:45  <Wolf01> But I should first learn R
10:42:55  <andythenorth> do wagon speed limits suck?
10:43:15  <Wolf01> No, why?
10:43:35  <andythenorth> curious
10:44:17  <Wolf01> I like to attach a 80km/h limited wagon to a 140km/h engine
10:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> no. just don't do the pikka thing where each wagon has a slightly different limit
10:45:21  <andythenorth> I don’t :)
10:45:41  <andythenorth> should engine and wagon generations arrive at the same time?
10:45:55  <andythenorth> (with wagon and engine speeds matched)
10:45:55  <Wolf01> Boring
10:46:00  <Wolf01> ^
10:46:04  <andythenorth> why boring?
10:46:25  <Wolf01> Feel like something you must purchase in bundle
10:46:26  <andythenorth> I prefer not having them synchronised, but that’s for drawing reasons
10:46:43  <andythenorth> there are 4 or 5 generations of engine, only 3 of wagons
10:46:56  <andythenorth> I don’t want to draw more :P
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10:54:43  <andythenorth> bah
10:54:49  <andythenorth> bored of my test game after 15 years :|
11:04:43  <andythenorth> FIRS textile mill has grown some roof pods :P[237]/6/0/2/1690602_morley_mill_web_2.jpg
11:04:46  <andythenorth> IRL
11:05:01  <Wolf01> Access denied
11:05:51  <Wolf01> Mmmh stupid links with symbols
11:11:07  <andythenorth> ha
11:11:13  <andythenorth> need to drop the chinook from Iron Horse :P
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11:40:09  <andythenorth> what’s better?
11:40:17  <andythenorth> wagon speed increase before engine speed increase?
11:40:24  <andythenorth> or engine speed increase before wagon speed increase?
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11:42:12  <Wolf01> Quak
11:42:28  <frosch123> hola
11:43:05  <Wolf01> Random? Like E-W-W-E-W-E?
11:44:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: the important part is that trains with different cargo have the same top-speed most of the time
11:44:45  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so it’s not a repeating pattern?
11:44:51  <frosch123> so they can share tracks without waiting on each other all the time
11:44:58  <andythenorth> except pax
11:45:00  <andythenorth> and mail
11:45:26  <frosch123> it's somewhat accepted that they are different
11:46:59  * andythenorth trying to find right cadence for introducing trains
11:47:05  <andythenorth> trucks work well at 29 years
11:47:24  <andythenorth> trams at 40 years
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11:51:31  <frosch123> o/
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11:52:42  <andythenorth> problem #1 is that I know too much about UK trains :(
11:52:53  <andythenorth> I could really do with lobotomising that bit of my brain
12:02:35  <Alberth> horse fixes?
12:04:05  <andythenorth> reset of dates, stats
12:04:15  <andythenorth> might be worse afterwards, not sure :P
12:04:56  <Alberth> it seemed to work mostly, imho
12:05:16  <Alberth> a bit early-ish for me, but fair enough
12:05:38  <Alberth> it's all just a number anyway
12:08:19  <andythenorth> 1860-1960 is pretty good
12:08:22  <andythenorth> then it gets a bit lost
12:08:47  <Alberth> :o there is more?
12:09:23  <andythenorth> it goes to about 2000 or so
12:11:51  <andythenorth> also lengths are bothering me
12:11:59  <andythenorth> I want neat 0.5 length multiples
12:14:29  <Alberth> +1 to 0.5
12:14:44  <Alberth> there is no simple list, is there?
12:17:28  <Alberth> oh, dear, it has rosters too, I must be missing so much :)
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12:26:37  <andythenorth> there’s only one working roster
12:26:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: I broke the FIRS graphviz with new makefile :P
12:27:24  <andythenorth> I tried to fix it here
12:27:33  <andythenorth> but I am clearly doing it wrong
12:27:43  <andythenorth> (L90 or so)
12:40:57  <frosch123> anything specific that does not work?
12:41:19  <frosch123> are you hinting at "graphviz not found" with your L90 comment?
12:42:31  <andythenorth> new paste (with indenting corrected)
12:42:48  <frosch123> the target $HTML_DOCS looks weird
12:42:51  <frosch123> is that a directory?
12:42:54  <andythenorth> “Makefile:95: *** missing separator.  Stop.”
12:43:19  <andythenorth> yes it’s a dir
12:44:34  <frosch123> remove the empty line at 90?
12:45:09  <frosch123> also you are not using tabs in that pbyx paste
12:45:41  <frosch123> 93, 95, 96, 97 need tab
12:45:56  <frosch123> the "directory is target" makes little sens
12:46:19  <frosch123> but you seem to do that all over the place :p
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12:50:42  * andythenorth tests
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12:56:55  <andythenorth> ta
12:56:57  <andythenorth> works
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13:47:42  <andythenorth> urgh
13:47:50  <andythenorth> wish I could stop focus-follows-mouse :(
13:47:56  <andythenorth> it’s making OpenTTD unusable
13:48:55  <Wolf01> Ha, on windows we have to enable it if we need it :P
13:49:50  <andythenorth> it’s irritatingly intermittent
13:49:57  <Wolf01> Yup
13:50:13  <Wolf01> Useful when doing some things and irritating with other things
13:50:27  <andythenorth> it’s somehow related to scroll
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13:51:34  <Wolf01> On windows just scrolling doesn't change focus
13:52:57  <andythenorth> must be some OS X specific bug
13:53:08  <Wolf01> It's irritating with multi monitor when you don't look where the pointer is and when you scroll the chat window you boost up/down the volume of the video you are watching in the other monitor :P
13:53:16  <andythenorth> it wasn’t present in OpenTTD on previous OS X versions
13:53:33  <andythenorth> and it’s present in older binaries
13:53:44  <andythenorth> as well as tip
13:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i like focus follows mouse
13:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but it doesn't properly follow the mouse on drag&drop
13:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and focus under mouse is too strict, because that makes alt+tab unusable
13:55:36  <Wolf01> You should be able to set the timeout
13:56:05  <Wolf01> Like 0.2-0.5 seconds
13:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not it
13:56:48  <Wolf01> I set it to 2 seconds so it won't focuses every single window when I move the mouse rapidly
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13:56:59  <andythenorth> there’s no setting for it in OpenTTD, right? o_O
13:57:04  * andythenorth looked
13:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause> drag&drop basically disables following the mouse
13:57:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so whatever window i drop on, will not have focus
13:57:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i have to either leave the window and come back, or click
13:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's mighty annoying
13:57:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and there's no setting
13:57:51  <Alberth> kde has a range of different notions on focus following mouse
13:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and all of them are "wrong" in some way
13:58:09  <Alberth> :)
13:59:05  <Alberth> andythenorth: nope, it mostly uses whatever the display library provides (eg SDL, but don't know what OSX uses)
13:59:11  <andythenorth> ach
13:59:24  <andythenorth> OS X has no follow-focus built in afaik
13:59:32  <Alberth> the fact that it is broken for older openttds suggests it's not caused by openttd
13:59:37  <andythenorth> yup
13:59:48  <andythenorth> I was hoping I was overlooking a setting
14:00:07  <andythenorth> but it’s unreliable behaviour, so unlikely to be due to a setting
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14:00:49  <Alberth> no focus follows mouse setting???  people like getting RSI apparently
14:01:23  <andythenorth> I guess I am used to clicking a lot
14:01:40  <Alberth> let me guess, it also does auto-raise :p
14:03:04  <Alberth> gnome does it too, and no way to get sane behavior there; it has no other way to raise a window with the mouse
14:03:59  * andythenorth trying to debug it
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14:04:51  <andythenorth> it’s particularly annoying when opening a new window
14:05:00  <andythenorth> as the one that is being opened goes behind the opener
14:05:07  <andythenorth> pretty unusable
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14:05:48  <andythenorth> OpenTTD has no problems on recent Windows?
14:05:53  <Alberth> with an apple? nah, can't be :p
14:05:56  * andythenorth wonders if it’s time to switch
14:09:15  <Wolf01> Why should it have problems?
14:09:18  <Alberth> there is this zoom problem thingie, but that can apparently be solved
14:09:29  <andythenorth> hmm
14:09:49  <andythenorth> “Function of scrollwheel:” setting that to “zoom map” or “off” seems to cure the issue
14:09:50  <andythenorth> afaict
14:09:58  <andythenorth> testing intermittent issues is hard :P
14:10:08  <Alberth> and w10 is designed as spyware, which may or may not be a problem
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14:25:07  * andythenorth did the diligent thing :P
14:25:13  <andythenorth> diligently increasing the OS X bug count
14:33:21  <peter1138> i don't even know what it means
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14:42:08  <andythenorth> I considered making a video
14:47:20  <andythenorth> ach 35MB limit on FS
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15:07:59  <andythenorth> peter1138: added a comment + link to screen record
15:08:13  <andythenorth> it’s 80MB :P
15:16:03  <Wolf01> On windows the scrolling of the map with the scrollwheel doesn't seem to work
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15:18:24  <supermop_home> Wolf01is that even a feature?
15:19:13  <Wolf01> Why not? All my mice have 2 axis scrollwheels
15:21:07  <Wolf01> BTW I think the 1st problem (newgrf parameters window) is a bug, since it should be modal
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15:25:38  <Wolf01> All the other windows come to front when they have focus, I think is a standard feature, ok the fact they get the scrollwheel as focus might be strange
15:25:58  <andythenorth> they shouldn’t focus on hover
15:26:03  <andythenorth> it’s weird
15:28:41  <Wolf01> In the game is really weird
15:33:19  <Wolf01> Does OS X recognize game windows? Or maybe the mouse constantly send some input to focus stuff
15:33:32  <Wolf01> Like a sort of "button 4"
15:33:50  <Wolf01> I bet the game reacts even to my button 4 and 5
15:34:25  <Wolf01> No, it doesn't :(
15:35:33  <frosch123> there is a setting to control the behaviour of the scrollwheel
15:35:37  <frosch123> its zoom by default iirc
15:35:44  <Wolf01> Yes
15:35:52  <frosch123> but i also think the two-wheel scrolling is bjarni only
15:36:08  <Wolf01> That doesn't seem to work on windows and does strange stuff to andy
15:36:48  <Wolf01> I should try with the other mouse which has the touch wheel
15:36:51  <andythenorth> it’s only ‘scroll map’ that’s borked
15:36:55  * andythenorth suspects a patch
15:37:05  <andythenorth> iirc, I tested one some time when
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15:37:35  <Wolf01> Pushed the wrong x
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15:38:12  <frosch123> how can wolf close andys windows?
15:38:12  <andythenorth> this one is too old I think
15:38:30  <andythenorth> :P
15:38:37  <andythenorth> when was 1.3.0?
15:38:42  <frosch123> 2013
15:38:48  <andythenorth> hmm this is too old then
15:38:55  * andythenorth has to go read git
15:39:00  <frosch123> take the first two degits, and put a 20 in front
15:39:25  <andythenorth> handy
15:39:50  <andythenorth> interesting commit;a=commit;h=79e180250cf25d484e25fe00cb47ecde213137c5
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15:40:31  <Wolf01> Ok, back in r27358 it didn't work too even with the other mouse
15:40:36  <andythenorth> ach dunno, can’t see any post-2013 commits referencing scrolling on OS X
15:40:41  <Wolf01> It never worked I think
16:21:50  <Wolf01> I can't even...
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17:00:29  <_dp_> I fucking hate microsoft
17:00:38  <_dp_> why can't they make programs that just work
17:00:56  <argoneus> good evening train friends
17:01:10  <_dp_> takes me several hours to get through some stupid crap every time I go to windows to compile new release :(
17:15:07  <Alberth> compilers don't make money :)
17:15:24  <Alberth> in particular, anything non-.NET :p
17:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so did the refund thing go anywhere?
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17:22:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and sure, must certainly be a comma :p
17:35:57  <andythenorth> @seen DanMacK
17:35:57  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 51 weeks, 0 days, 1 hour, and 53 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
17:36:05  <andythenorth> he might manage the year
17:36:16  <Alberth> looks likely :)
17:36:34  * andythenorth back to drawing pixels
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17:49:15  <V453000> yo?
17:49:22  <V453000> slug world domination here yet?
17:51:12  <andythenorth> is V453000
17:51:13  <andythenorth> look
17:51:37  <V453000> omfg
17:51:43  <V453000> yes
17:51:46  <V453000> iz
17:52:35  <andythenorth> such
17:52:48  <V453000> how are you?
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17:54:14  <andythenorth> dream living
17:56:48  <V453000> what does that mean?
17:56:51  <V453000> cats on boats??
17:56:55  <V453000> cat found?
17:57:07  <V453000> ultimately geometrically corret ship drawn?
17:59:17  <andythenorth> industries
17:59:39  <andythenorth> this sort of thing
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18:01:37  <V453000> what is that?
18:02:09  <Alberth> factorio in real-life :p
18:03:14  <andythenorth> coke plant
18:04:51  <V453000> Alberth: in what?
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18:26:16  <argoneus> "compilers don't make money"
18:26:17  <argoneus> llvm?
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19:13:24  <supermop> andythenorth: that coke oven is new?
19:13:33  <supermop> looks like something out of the early 70s
19:13:34  <andythenorth> steeltown
19:13:44  <andythenorth> yeah, I’m doing a relatively modern one
19:13:49  <andythenorth> most people won’t know different
19:16:23  <supermop> there is something achingly beautiful about the last generation of truly dirty heavy industry
19:16:46  <supermop> chemical lants and refineries from late 60s japan or europe
19:17:23  <supermop> international orange strips on skinny guyed smokestacks
19:18:17  <supermop> i guess without the EPA we will be going back to that stuff, but the building are just going to look like boring pole barns
19:18:51  <supermop> most arc furnaces ive seen here just look like some generic shed with a pile of scrap metal out front
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19:40:01  <andythenorth> supermop: here’s what I’ve got so far
19:40:37  <andythenorth> proportions of the coke battery aren’t right
19:40:46  <andythenorth> but I’ll stick some pipes and stuff on and see
19:44:48  <supermop> nice
19:53:53  <quiznilo> gonna see if I can test out FIRS tip, see if I can find some bugs
19:55:45  <quiznilo> <- that's the tip, right?
19:56:36  <andythenorth> yup
19:56:47  <andythenorth>
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20:25:26  <quiznilo> installing chameleon and markdown... for some reason, NML was already installed
20:26:44  <quiznilo> hmm... no config, so just hit 'make'?
20:26:48  <andythenorth> just make
20:42:45  <peter1138> hmm just found another old directory of patches...
20:43:55  <andythenorth> :)
21:00:29  <quiznilo> is firs.grf the only file I have to cp?
21:02:38  <quiznilo> and there it is... FIRS Industry Replacement Set r5510, just as advertised.  Gonna try Steeltown
21:05:59  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so did the refund thing go anywhere? <- they are working on it, a lot of people seem to have the problem
21:08:53  <quiznilo> "There were no suitable places for 'Basic Oxygen Furnace' industries.  Change the map generation parameters to get a better map." ottd 1.7.0, subarctic 1840 start, FIRS r5510
21:09:10  <Wolf01> Bad feature
21:09:14  <quiznilo> should I report bugs here or on a forum?
21:09:30  <Wolf01> Bash andy, he is here
21:09:50  <quiznilo> I don't bash devs *indignant look*
21:10:08  <Wolf01> He is a devloloper, like me
21:10:12  <quiznilo> andythenorth: ^^
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21:12:27  <quiznilo> also, getting this error message for TTRS 1.2 "Loading TTRS bridges is useless, you should disable TTRS bridges if you lack free memory"
21:13:12  <Wolf01> Disable the bridges then, it's useless since they are part of the baseset
21:13:28  <andythenorth> interesting that BOF won’t build
21:13:36  <andythenorth> just once, or more often>
21:13:37  <andythenorth> ?
21:13:48  <quiznilo> 2 out of 2 times so far
21:14:25  <quiznilo> 3/3 times subactic, 1840
21:15:15  <quiznilo> nada temperate, 1840
21:15:18  <andythenorth> is it mountainous?
21:15:24  <quiznilo> yeah
21:15:28  <quiznilo> needs flat map?
21:15:33  <andythenorth> shouldn’t but try it
21:15:42  <andythenorth> how many blast furnaces on the map?
21:15:52  <andythenorth> ok try 1851
21:16:01  <andythenorth> interesting bug
21:16:27  <quiznilo> tried very flat, 1840, no good... a sec
21:17:07  <Wolf01> Could you do more tries to place industries? Maybe on last try you should force terraforming
21:17:09  <quiznilo> 1851, temperate flat works
21:17:23  <andythenorth> flat doesn’t matter, it’s a date bug
21:17:35  <quiznilo> I'm just reporting the results with all the params
21:17:36  <andythenorth> it checks for blast furnaces, which aren’t available until 1850
21:17:51  <andythenorth> try your preferred map style again :)
21:17:53  <peter1138> hmm, well, not found my old map generator :(
21:18:23  <quiznilo> 1851 subarctic works
21:18:23  <andythenorth> :P
21:19:09  <peter1138> oohh found it
21:19:13  <peter1138> and some maps :p
21:19:37  <peter1138> it uses floats, YEAH
21:20:10  <quiznilo> I have 1.00000000028 trains
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21:30:23  <Wolf01> Clicking on the "exit" button in the video to close the game is priceless
21:30:56  <Wolf01> Like when one tries to scroll a screenshot
21:42:29  * andythenorth does that often
21:44:48  <quiznilo> there is actually a 'Limekiln Pike' near me
21:52:33  <quiznilo> andy was asking about station name ideas
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22:05:46  <quiznilo> I'd like to get a better feel for the 'lbf' measurement, and how that relates to tons of freight
22:05:59  <quiznilo> and google isn't helping me
22:09:33  <supermop_home> its an imperial measurement for torque
22:10:12  <quiznilo> lol
22:10:24  <peter1138> pound-force
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22:16:06  <quiznilo> wow... a 4,496 lbf Norris can realistically handle about 40 tons, with realistic acceleration on, and 5x weight multiplier for freight
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22:16:32  <supermop_home> peter1138: it's pound-foot
22:18:05  <peter1138> yup
22:18:33  <Samu> hey
22:18:41  <peter1138> path caching?
22:18:49  <Samu> when map height is 255 on sub-tropic rivers won't generate
22:19:19  <Samu> it generates when it's 15
22:19:38  <Samu> haven't tried other values yet
22:19:40  <supermop_home> tropic generation is fucked
22:19:55  <supermop_home> best to re-write it
22:22:24  <supermop_home> I feel like I am going to need to forget architecture and just convince my wife to teach my python
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22:22:48  <supermop_home> if I'm going to ever be able to afford to take vacations while staying here in the city
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22:27:33  <peter1138> yeah just use original generator for non-temperate
22:28:20  <peter1138> although
22:28:23  <peter1138> no rivers then either :p
22:30:33  <_dp_> cache rivers
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22:33:17  <quiznilo> yeah, I don't think it's possible to make a profit with Norris's hauling freight
22:33:28  <quiznilo> with those settings.  Possibly just passengers
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22:42:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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