Log for #openttd on 30th April 2017:
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01:36:26  <quiznilo> speaking of breakdowns, I want to see a horse break down
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04:51:26  <quiznilo> this is a new one... ottd opponent appears to be transporting livestock in zeppelins
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06:13:21  <andythenorth> o/
06:31:01  <quiznilo> mornin' andy... I'm out
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06:41:51  <Alberth> o/
06:45:15  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
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07:38:10  <andythenorth> can’t think how to shorten this name:
07:39:30  <Alberth> make a parameter "boring" or "fun", and rename to "fertilizer plant" resp "explosives plant"  :p
07:40:18  <Alberth> if you produce one cargo more than the other, the choice is easy
07:42:00  <Alberth> either cargo is a bit fishy, looking at the cargo flow
07:43:39  <Alberth> fertilizer fits better with the other cargos imho, explosives is odd
07:44:06  <Alberth> could work for a mining economy though
07:44:13  <andythenorth> BOOM
07:44:56  <Alberth> make a MAYHEM economy, aimed at coop :p
07:45:49  <Alberth> I am quite not sure bulk terminal makes sense, imho
07:46:09  <Alberth> "clay" ?
07:46:46  <Alberth> make a drag-site on water that produces clay
07:48:20  <andythenorth> I should rename it kaolin
07:48:26  <andythenorth> too much RL intervening :P
08:07:35  <Alberth> :)
08:09:53  <andythenorth> could drop clay maybe
09:07:33  <Alberth> bbl
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10:29:54  <Wolf01> Moin
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11:23:09  <Wolf01> Shit V453000, do you guys even get rest?
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12:05:33  <andythenorth> so
12:06:23  <frosch123> mola
12:06:46  <andythenorth> such chores to do
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12:12:02  <Wolf01> o/
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12:41:06  <Wolf01> o/
12:41:15  <Alberth> hi hi
12:41:49  <supermop> andythenorth:
12:42:02  <supermop> this cant be a good idea, but here i am
12:42:59  <supermop> need to figure out how to composite sprites for truck bodies
12:43:39  <supermop> also, what are the disadvantages of curtain-sided trucks
12:44:18  <frosch123> django could suddenly open them
12:46:18  <supermop> they vanilla goods trucks have ridges down the side and i never really could tell if they were meant to be curtain sided or part of the framing of the truck
12:46:35  <supermop> though i may as well try drawing loading sprites so...
13:02:12  <Wolf01> Pfff I was looking on the debug switches to re-enable the pollution layer :|
13:02:40  <Wolf01> I just noticed that layers now have nice buttons on the minimap
13:03:55  <Wolf01> Still not possible to enable them on the actual minimap but only on the large map
13:08:10  <frosch123> the new "q" behaviour confuses me
13:08:35  <Wolf01> Yes, a bit, but I got used and now I really like it
13:09:04  <Wolf01> Specially in sandbox mode
13:12:20  <andythenorth> supermop: what kind of truck are curtain-side? o_O
13:12:22  <andythenorth> box or flat?
13:12:31  <andythenorth> that is why I never included them
13:12:35  <andythenorth> also realisms
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13:47:26  <__ln__> two finns and a german on the podium
13:50:20  <frosch123> who is winning?
13:50:50  <__ln__> bottas won, vettel second
13:51:42  <LordAro> woah spoilers
13:52:14  <frosch123> i thought it would be something more violent
13:55:06  <__ln__> LordAro: yes, spoilers in each car
13:55:12  <LordAro> ayy
14:07:24  <supermop> andy a curtain sider is a curtain sider
14:10:39  <frosch123> Wolf01: somehow the "made in" tooltip is only shown for not-hand-craftable stuff
14:10:46  <frosch123> no idea whether it has always been like that
14:18:34  <peter1138> max speed 48.3 mph, oo er
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15:03:53  <Wolf01> frosch123, I think that where to make other stuff is already inferred from the number of materials required, up to 2, up to 4 and more than 4
15:32:53  <supermop> can i paint part of a truck cc blue and then use some cc magic to make it other colors in some cases?
15:38:47  <andythenorth> supermop: 'depends’
15:38:49  <andythenorth> but yes
15:41:33  <supermop> this open truck, idk if the 'open' part whatever it's called should be cc or grey or wood
15:41:56  <supermop> or 2cc
15:44:23  <andythenorth> 2cc
15:44:28  <andythenorth> then the player chooses
15:45:01  <supermop> im using the same bodies for all generations
15:45:06  <andythenorth> yup[
15:45:39  <supermop> although it would be nice to add fancier 2cc stripes in later generations
15:46:23  * andythenorth wonders
15:46:32  <andythenorth> why is train length display in depot not just an int?
15:46:39  <andythenorth> and could I have a setting so it’s an int?
15:46:45  <supermop> are containers really carried on regular flatbeds, or is it a different type of frame?
15:46:54  <andythenorth> both
15:47:11  <supermop> i recall it looking more like a hollow frame, without much decking
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15:47:29  <andythenorth> skeletal trailers where containers are common
15:47:36  <andythenorth> otherwise flat or dropside
15:48:08  <supermop> also - how to take containers off a trolley truck without getting 1500V on the lift?
15:48:33  <supermop> i guess it would just short out
15:52:12  <andythenorth> third rail
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15:52:47  <supermop> battery?
15:53:05  <supermop> pull off to side on trolley poles?
15:53:21  <supermop> think pallets on flatbe is better then
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16:02:43  * andythenorth has to have integer length trains, or at least x.5
16:02:47  <andythenorth> anything else is all wrong
16:03:28  <andythenorth> but that means I have to rework most of Iron Horse :|
16:07:22  <frosch123> supermop: you can do about everything with recoloring
16:08:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: why do you care, are you turning into v?
16:08:36  <andythenorth> yes
16:08:42  <andythenorth> I thought the same
16:09:13  <frosch123> v chained 2 or 3 wagons into a single articulated wagon, so that all wagons and engines have length 1 tile
16:09:53  <andythenorth> I am considering it
16:09:58  <andythenorth> or drop realism
16:11:03  <andythenorth> .9 and .1 are particularly irritating
16:11:17  <andythenorth> I am seriously considering patching locally to ‘eliminate’ the issue
16:11:30  <andythenorth> ceil(length)
16:11:55  <supermop> what is the need for integer trains?
16:13:06  <Wolf01> Why not just make consists of wagons with randomized liveries and fixed length (4 tiles, 8 tiles)?
16:13:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a totally different issue with that display
16:13:29  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I considered fixed length trains
16:13:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that it doesn't properly display 1/16th units
16:13:40  <andythenorth> everyone uses TL 5, right?
16:13:42  <andythenorth> like coop?
16:13:49  <Wolf01> Usually, yes
16:13:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so :p
16:13:56  <Wolf01> 5 or 7
16:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't coop use 3?
16:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> my freight trains often come in length 10 or 12
16:14:35  <andythenorth> 2 x TL 5
16:14:40  <Wolf01> Attach 2 consists together
16:14:41  <andythenorth> with or without engine? o_O
16:14:52  <andythenorth> maybe you shouldn’t choose engine, that’s unnecessary
16:14:55  <supermop> i like 4-5 for passengers and 3 for branch freight, 8 for main freight
16:15:01  <andythenorth> you just buy ‘coal train’ or whatever
16:15:10  <andythenorth> much simpler
16:15:26  <supermop> andythenorth: also add in app purchases
16:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that would annoy the crap out of me
16:15:33  <andythenorth> hmm
16:15:42  <Wolf01> andythenorth, yeah, that would "fix" the problem of using fast pax engine with freight wagons and trying to figure out why it doesn't go uphill with a full load of steel
16:15:44  <andythenorth> I also considered a magic last vehicle
16:16:00  <andythenorth> last vehicle could fake its length to make the train integer length
16:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a caboose?
16:16:08  <quiznilo> heavyweight mail car $$
16:16:11  <andythenorth> just whatever is last
16:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i honestly don't understand your problem
16:16:38  <supermop> tbh i never care if i have all 4.9 TL trains at my 5 tile station
16:16:50  <Wolf01> Ahaha, just make 8 fake cabeese, 1/8, 2/8, 3/8... and use the one which fill the integer
16:16:54  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause same here
16:17:11  <quiznilo> I'm assuming 'cabeese' is the plural of 'caboose'
16:17:14  <supermop> whats the problem with a 4.8 length train?
16:17:21  <andythenorth> everything
16:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if a wagon is 0.6, and the display in the depot is 4.2, i know at a glance that i can fit another wagon in
16:17:47  <supermop> all i need to know is that  i need a station at least that long
16:17:56  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's 4.8 i can't
16:18:17  <Wolf01> What about a "tile lenght indicator" in the depot window instead?
16:18:24  <Eddi|zuHause> if it flat out "rounded" to 5, i must actually attach a wagon to see that it won't fit anymore
16:18:28  <Wolf01> Or length too
16:18:39  <supermop> if i buy one more wagon and its 5.1 i sell the wagon or save it for the next train
16:18:49  <frosch123> Wolf01: compatiblity issues with 28/32 vehicles
16:18:59  <frosch123> otherwise i would have added it years ago :p
16:19:34  <Wolf01> No, I meant really a ruler drawn over the rows, like the word processors
16:20:13  <frosch123> yes, but that only works if 1 tile length is always 32 or 28 pixels
16:20:20  <frosch123> and not different per train
16:20:54  <Wolf01> It is?
16:21:17  <Wolf01> Never noticed that... maybe because I'm using always the same grf since... ever
16:21:19  <frosch123> you need a game which is less f-ed up with half features like ottd :)
16:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> can such a game even exist?
16:23:01  <Wolf01> Yeah, pong
16:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are loads of WTF in the original pong code
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16:35:19  <johannes_2> Hello, I have a city with only one train station, where the servies for all kinds of produces goods (passengers, mail and money) are judged good or better. still, the town rating is still medium for years now...
16:35:38  <johannes_2> could there be any reason why the town does not increase my rating?
16:38:03  <frosch123> if you have a services station and do nothing otherwise, rating should increase about every 16 months
16:38:28  <quiznilo> if you subscribe to the notion that TTD was the original asperger's troll, there are lots of problems with 4.8 length trains, or 5.1 length trains.
16:38:43  <frosch123> note that unserviced stations decrease rating
16:38:52  <frosch123> so make sure that all your stations are good
16:41:30  <supermop> what magic do you use to render various minerals andythenorth?
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16:42:20  <andythenorth> python recolouring of pngs
16:45:15  <johannes_2> frosch123: actually all stations are good, but it did not increase after 5 years iirc
16:45:41  <johannes_2> also, many other towns increase the rating more often than once a year
16:45:55  <frosch123> <- well, check yourself
16:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> quiznilo: but with stock vehicles you only ever get .0 and .5
16:48:44  <supermop> ogfx sprite sheet has some open trucks with brown sides
16:48:51  <LordAro> frosch123: you can do better than that :p
16:49:04  <supermop> and something that looks covered by a big grey tarp
16:49:51  <supermop> i should be using like 2nd gen ih wagons for these truck bodies
16:51:09  <johannes_2> frosch123: thanks. I have one active station and a rating of mediocre, so the formula says it needs to increase by 17 every month, which means that after 13 months, the rating must be >= 0 + 13*17 >= 200
16:51:23  <johannes_2> however, I've just skipped 13 months and it is still mediocre
16:51:57  <johannes_2> I once had on old train station that I bulldozed, but these should not be counted
16:52:10  <frosch123> well, it's less about your station rating, but more about how often you load/unload cargo
16:52:51  <johannes_2> cargo is transfered more often than each 50 days
16:54:56  <johannes_2> would you mind looking at the city? I could mail the savegame to you
16:55:12  <frosch123> maybe ask eddi
16:55:24  <frosch123> i need to get more iron
16:56:18  <johannes_2> Eddi|zuHause: Could you please check my savegame for issues with this city?
16:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i cannot check your savegame
16:57:14  <supermop> johannes_2 best to post it on tt-forums
16:57:29  <supermop> with maybe some screenshots
16:57:38  <johannes_2> or I'll just run gdb on it
16:57:50  <johannes_2> that should clearly show the calculation
16:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you know that saying about kanonen and spatzen?
16:58:24  <supermop> not everyone can open up an run the game right now, but someone on the forum will probably take a look
16:58:49  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds way too idiomatic to have been covered in any german class i took
17:00:56  <supermop> maybe all the cabs should be 2cc for trolley trucks
17:02:01  <johannes_2> hehe at least, if it's a bug (which I don't assume), I'll know the exact reason
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17:41:41  * andythenorth biab
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18:08:26  <quiznilo> supermop: 3 for branch freight?  Seriously?
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18:43:00  <andythenorth> I could do all trains at 4/8 or 8/8
18:56:33  <V453000> that sounds like too much of a good idea
18:56:44  <V453000> do 7.4/8
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19:00:35  <andythenorth> V453000: why is non 0.5 lengths shit?
19:00:39  <andythenorth> I can’t figure it out
19:00:59  <V453000> because station and signal tiles are always whole numbers?
19:01:07  <andythenorth> isn’t it
19:01:12  <andythenorth> also it’s a stupid guessing game
19:01:21  <andythenorth> depot buy menu doesn’t indicate length
19:02:01  <frosch123> make a patch for thatr
19:02:02  <V453000> well you can mention it there
19:02:06  <V453000> in graphics too
19:02:08  <andythenorth> also how does 10/8 resolve to single decimal place?
19:02:11  <V453000> but it's just a mess gameplay wise
19:02:15  <andythenorth> is it a mess?
19:02:19  <andythenorth> or am I just being weird?
19:02:21  <V453000> it is a mess
19:02:27  <andythenorth> it annoys fuck out of me, but I don’t know why
19:02:33  <andythenorth> seems a bit OCD
19:02:33  <V453000> 4/8 or 8/8
19:02:44  <V453000> teh rule
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19:03:32  <andythenorth> but 6/8 looks nice :P
19:03:54  <andythenorth> and fits nicely into 3, 6, 9 tile TL :P
19:05:25  <V453000> yeah, and horribly into everything else :P
19:05:36  <V453000> esp when mixed with 8/8 engines
19:08:22  <frosch123> which tech do i need for blueprints?
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19:10:37  <frosch123> also what about these receipts with a cargo that is both input and output?
19:10:51  <frosch123> first i though it was a typo, but now i found a second one
19:15:26  <frosch123> ah, found the blueprints
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19:23:32  <Wolf01> V453000, the new train orders, how do they work? I tried to set "fluid count > 10k && item count = 0" but even after the fluid reached 22k the train was still there
19:33:59  <Wolf01> Ok, I think I got it... I had to set the signal, I thought it was for the circuit network condition
19:34:52  <andythenorth> “Cogeneration plant” or “Combined heat and power plant”?
19:34:57  <andythenorth>
19:35:32  <Wolf01> Why differ? Just "power plant" isn't good?
19:35:40  <frosch123> i use the term "cogeneration" at work
19:36:05  <andythenorth> Wolf01: it has different graphics to regular coal / oil power plant
19:36:17  <andythenorth> or I could just…not do that
19:36:37  <Wolf01> Does it use the same fuel?
19:36:53  <andythenorth> Peat
19:37:08  <andythenorth> I am kicking around having biomass / woodchips in some other economy
19:37:10  <andythenorth> also
19:37:31  <andythenorth> some kind of 21st century sustainability thing
19:37:41  <andythenorth> plastic -> additive manufacturing plant
19:37:46  <andythenorth> iphones -> shredder
19:38:03  <andythenorth> probiotics -> dairy ->.yoghurt shop
19:38:17  <andythenorth> gluten free food -> general store
19:38:29  <andythenorth> windmills -> sea
19:38:35  <Wolf01> Meh... 1 U-235 so far :(
19:38:37  <andythenorth> batteries -> tesla plant
19:38:52  <andythenorth> town food waste -> compost
19:39:03  <andythenorth> such FIRS
19:39:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: you are already quite good at deprecating cargo, you do not need external hipster terms
19:39:30  <Wolf01> XD
19:39:52  <Wolf01> BTW, is tesla plant->batteries
19:40:04  <andythenorth> tesla plant -> batteries -> tesla car plant
19:40:07  <andythenorth> via rocket
19:40:19  <andythenorth> I needed more sea industries: space X landing barge
19:40:27  <andythenorth> accepts: nothing
19:40:34  <andythenorth> produces: lightly used rockets
19:41:29  <Wolf01> Mmmmh, rockets... make a graphic for aicrafts which only raise vertically in the runway, then transparent graphics and no shadow until they land on the other airport
19:47:06  <supermop> Wolf01 hard to click on
19:47:42  <Wolf01> Because you click on the planes while they travel at 900kmh?
19:48:00  <supermop> sure
19:48:10  <Wolf01> Nice reflexes then
19:48:54  <supermop> really don't feel like drawing truck cargo
19:49:16  <andythenorth> supermop: just don’t :P
19:49:16  <supermop> what are the sensible tradeoffs for load spead?
19:49:21  <supermop> speed
19:49:32  <andythenorth> supermop: what code base are you working with?
19:49:38  <supermop> like, running cost seems like wouldn't care
19:50:06  <supermop> andythenorthi am adding the rest of the ogfx+rv types to trolleybi trucks
19:50:27  <supermop> so trolleybi, which is very simple
19:50:44  <andythenorth> hmm
19:50:56  <andythenorth> if you ported it to Road Hog, you get a lot free
19:50:58  <supermop> i would also usually choose load speed over top speed 90% of the time for RVs
19:51:03  <andythenorth> but it’s much more to work with
19:51:10  <andythenorth> more dependencies etc
19:51:16  <supermop> andythenorth: then its not ogfx+ ish
19:51:45  <supermop> i want pm to just take the trolleybi and roll them into ogfx+ someday
19:51:49  <andythenorth> ok
19:52:06  <andythenorth> no automatic cargo graphics for you then :)
19:52:06  <supermop> there would be a lot id do different if i was working from whole cloth
19:52:19  <andythenorth> seems RH the loading speed is traded against weight
19:52:22  <andythenorth> rather than cost
19:52:22  <supermop> andythenorth happy to steal magic if i can
19:52:52  <supermop> like, i wouldn't make 40 pax trolley buses if i was making a supermop+ RVs
19:53:19  <supermop> nor would every RV be rigid body, .5 TL
19:55:10  <supermop> maybe cargo decay?
19:55:21  <supermop> do people pay attention to that>
19:55:56  <andythenorth> they have no way of knowing about it
19:56:03  <andythenorth> I apply it to some vehicles anyway
19:56:38  <supermop> more doors etc on side to load cargo faster could be traded off with cost or weight or speed i guess
19:57:15  <supermop> but idk what circumstances would make someone choose the fast vs slow loading then
19:58:20  <andythenorth> fast loading = high decay
19:58:27  <andythenorth> slow loading = low decay
19:58:30  <supermop> the trolley busses already have more HP, and less running cost than diesel trucks, so don't want to split too many more hairs there
19:58:32  <andythenorth> is how I do it for buses
19:58:46  <supermop> bus is straightforward
19:59:12  <andythenorth> as far as possible I try and make the choice of vehicle about how it looks
19:59:20  <andythenorth> ottd is a piss-poor economic simulator
19:59:34  <andythenorth> but is very nice ‘watch the pixels’ move simulator
20:00:10  <supermop> greyhound has only one door but goes fast and is tolerable for 4 hours, city bus has 2 wider doors, a low floor, but is slow and makes you sick in 5 minutes
20:00:37  <andythenorth> same for commuter ferry versus overnight ferry
20:00:43  <supermop> crate of newspapers probably doesn't care what it is in
20:01:03  <andythenorth> decay on freight is only for refrigerated cargo
20:01:18  <andythenorth> also livestock
20:01:35  <supermop> fwiw i see fish delivered on flatbeds on my block every morning
20:01:57  <supermop> blue plastic tank pallets
20:02:49  <supermop> so weight is high and capacity is low, but the fish are still swiming so they don't mind the lack of refridgeration
20:03:10  * supermop lives in chinatown
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20:06:07  <supermop> flatbed, open truck, reefer, box truck, mail truck,
20:06:17  <supermop> guess can add tanker and hopper
20:06:29  <supermop> that should be enough
20:07:02  <supermop> dump truck?
20:08:55  <supermop> really the only point of this set is "here is something that uses ELRD" , "someone else make something better"
20:08:58  <andythenorth> I did dump truck
20:09:29  <supermop> dump truck seems neat for electrified dirt road
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20:16:14  <andythenorth> V453000: you have engines with wagons attached :o
20:16:16  <andythenorth> in NUTS
20:16:19  <andythenorth> hmm
20:34:50  <supermop> hmm i feel like i should get rid of this big grey band on the tankers
20:39:53  <quiznilo> I worry about making a 4.04 length train, that shows as 4.0 in the depot, but still loads and unloads super slow on 4 length platforms
20:40:58  <Eddi|zuHause> train length unit is 1/16
20:41:28  <quiznilo> so this won't happen?
20:41:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so 4.0625 is the next step after 4.0
20:42:04  <quiznilo> well, does train length round or just some kind of integer cut-off?
20:43:30  <andythenorth> ha funny how the cycle goes
20:43:48  <andythenorth> now I’m playing with NARS 2, I want the FIRS station rating hack back :P
20:43:53  <andythenorth> I can’t afford enough trains
20:44:04  <andythenorth> to always have one waiting
20:44:29  <quiznilo> what is that station rating hack?
20:45:03  <andythenorth> reduces penalty for not picking up
20:45:10  <andythenorth> or sets station rating to 100%
20:52:43  <quiznilo> I propose changing departure order in depots from FILO to FIFO
20:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure it's neither of those
20:53:19  <quiznilo> oh
20:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause> most likely it's based on vehicle ID
20:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so if vehicles 2,5,10 and 12 are in the depot, and vehicle 8 leaves the block to make the depot exit free, then vehicle 10 will leave next
20:54:59  <quiznilo> for some reason, I expect it to behave like station loading does
20:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if that applies to depots, but for signals it also once depended on acceleration, so whichever vehicle got from speed 0 to the next vehicle step first would move
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21:04:01  <supermop> got 1 px of clear space between tank and chassis to see road
21:04:06  <V453000> andythenorth: that's just an extreme measure to make all purchaseable units exactly 16/8
21:04:12  <V453000> buying things per tile is nice for nuts
21:04:20  <supermop> not sure if that's going to look ok
21:04:28  <V453000> but the configurability can suck if you have different visuals for similar wagon
21:08:59  <supermop> andythenorth: in hog/horse, did stock wagons etc end up as 1st cc or as some kind of brown?
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21:15:19  <andythenorth> supermop: CC in hog, grey in horse
21:15:22  <andythenorth> but horse is wrong
21:21:24  <andythenorth> hmm
21:21:38  <andythenorth> Hunting Camp and Herding Coop are same length in both words
21:21:43  <andythenorth> and same start and end letters
21:21:49  <andythenorth> chances of that, statistically?
21:22:14  * andythenorth renamed an industry
21:23:44  <supermop> andythenorth callback to set name based on build year
21:24:05  <supermop> in 0 CE its a hunting camp, in 2000 its a herding coop
21:27:51  <dpk> LordAro: hey
21:28:14  <LordAro> dpk: coincidence
21:29:08  <andythenorth> bed
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22:25:45  <quiznilo> sometimes, when I'm playing competitive ottd, I start wishing for tactical nuclear weapons, in-game
22:26:04  <Wolf01> Then you should play factorio
22:26:18  <quiznilo> I didn't know factorio had a competitive mode
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23:17:54  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:49:03  <quiznilo> Accidentally fat-fingered attempting to send myself a private message
23:49:09  <quiznilo> it crashed
23:49:58  <quiznilo> guess I should've compiled debugging symbols in >.<
23:52:49  <quiznilo> screenshot
23:55:47  <quiznilo> crash is confirmed reproducable

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