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Log for #openttd on 3rd May 2017:
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09:29:15  <Wolf01> o/
09:29:33  <__ln__> precisely on time
09:29:48  <Wolf01> :D
09:33:04  <Wolf01> https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/05/02/1958221/san-francisco-politician-jane-kim-is-exploring-a-tax-on-robots lol...
09:37:55  <__ln__> next they're going to ban robots on earth
09:43:04  <Wolf01> The future will feature robots which paint, make movies and songs (as they aren't work), while poor humans will work they ass off to not get their position stolen from robots
09:43:10  <Wolf01> ;)
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10:28:54  <Wolf01> V453000 we need this in F: https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aDWNzR7_460sv.mp4
10:54:09  <V453000> fuck is that
10:54:24  <Wolf01> Tomato sorter
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14:36:59  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, I still can't understand why is not possible to solve the problem with infra sharing you talk about every time, not really the "who get paid" but the possible abuse you are talking about
14:39:55  <Wolf01> I think you mean Load A -> Unload B where you have A -> transfer C -> B and you abuse it by doing A<->C and never deliver to B (or deliver after some trips) or even A->C->D->C->D->C->B where D is really far away
14:51:07  <_dp_> What's even the point of infra sharing? If you coop play in one company, if you compete don't share
14:52:17  <supermop_> _dp_: what if yyou want to share but not necessarily have other players making decisions for your company
14:52:35  <Wolf01> My suggestion is: you already can estimate in some ways what the best payment could be for a cargo (which is price * tiles / time), you could get paid for the leg instead of the entire trip, A->C in the right time should be paid as A->C even with transfer (which is just A->C part of A->B), the train (or rv, airplane, ship) did his job, if the C->B leg fucks up and takes 3 years to deliver the
14:52:35  <Wolf01> cargo then it's its fault and will get paid down to 0 in relation of the cargo payment rates
14:53:57  <_dp_> supermop_, ask them not to?
14:54:00  <Wolf01> _dp_, also in future it might be possible to have players which focus only on RVs or ships, other which focus on aircraft, or even disabling constructions of stations for every player and make them via gamescripts
14:54:08  <_dp_> supermop_, way better than uncontrolled infra sharing
14:56:07  <_dp_> Wolf01, don't see how any of this is related to infra sharing, and having players focus on different tasks is already working perfectly
14:56:11  <Wolf01> _dp_, asking players to not do something they are wanting to do is like asking to a kid to not eat the candies on the living room table
14:56:30  <_dp_> Wolf01, in big cb games one does town management, one goods, one coal, etc
14:57:50  <Wolf01> And what if one wants to restructure a train junction to be able to make a road traverse it? It asks the other player to do that? If one doesn't have any limitation he does it by himself
14:59:05  <Wolf01> But this is not the point, the point is to allow different things of game, or you are just one of those people which things "if devs do X which I don't care abouit then they won't do Y which I really want"?
14:59:13  <Wolf01> *thinks
15:01:43  <_dp_> I one of those people who thinks this game is dead already :p
15:02:08  <Wolf01> Then why complain?
15:02:36  <_dp_> Where do I complain here? I honestly don't understand why would anyone want infra sharing
15:02:49  <Wolf01> You = anyone?
15:03:18  <_dp_> I do understand why I don't want it  :p
15:04:02  <Wolf01> Ok, then that's your point, my point is: it would be cool to have that too because it might open new gameplay
15:08:34  <_dp_> yeah, some pvp massacre xD
15:08:56  <supermop_> _dp_: why do people want canals and ships
15:09:09  <supermop_> I understand why i dont use canals
15:09:23  <supermop_> so we need to remove it from game
15:09:31  <_dp_> supermop_, realism xD
15:09:49  <Wolf01> That's not even near realism
15:10:01  <_dp_> supermop_, also ships can transport infinite cargo in limited space
15:10:21  <supermop_> yep, bad feature, must be removed from 1.8
15:10:26  <Wolf01> We will address water transport problems one day
15:10:55  <supermop_> it is offensive to me that any players use ships at all so i demand no one ise ships
15:10:56  <Wolf01> Starting with "you won't be able to fit 2 ships in the same tile anymore"
15:11:08  <supermop_> even in the privacy of their own single player games
15:11:42  <supermop_> i will start filling frivolous DMCA takedown requests to anyone who posts a screenshot of a ship
15:11:47  <Wolf01> Lol
15:12:05  <supermop_> or a photo of a real ship
15:12:13  <supermop_> unless the censor out the ship
15:15:07  <_dp_> to me worst thing about ships is catchment area hack with port
15:15:39  <Wolf01> Hack like what?
15:15:54  <Wolf01> Because I can show you what the real catchement area hack is
15:16:04  <_dp_> Wolf01, build two canals, attach port and your rail stating has 5 catchment radius
15:16:50  <Wolf01> Ok, you know you can cover an entire city of 10M inhabitants with just 2 bus stations?
15:18:02  <Wolf01> Or better, with the same bus station split in 2 with station walking (or just ctrl)
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15:18:39  <Wolf01> Catchement area is broken beyond imagination
15:20:32  <_dp_> Wolf01, ofc I know, but that looks at least somewhat logical
15:21:25  <Wolf01> BTW, tea time
15:21:26  <_dp_> Wolf01, since it's not much different from building excessively huge station
15:22:46  <Wolf01> With the difference that huge stations still have 4-5 tiles of catchement radius, not a 30x30 square between them where you can have a city or some industries
15:23:00  <supermop_> anyway why are we even talking about this stuff
15:23:20  <_dp_> Wolf01, you can build station in weird shape
15:23:44  <_dp_> and they will even have acceptance zone of boulding box
15:23:59  <_dp_> not catchment tho
15:26:21  <_dp_> and don't get me wrong, it's not that I particularly like spreading, I just don't see any way to avoid it
15:28:44  <_dp_> even something as radical as only having one tile to exert catchment area wouldn't fix it completely
15:40:41  <Wolf01> supermop_, because topics about this pop up in the forum
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16:01:09  <Wolf01> o/
16:01:12  <Alberth> moin
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17:26:16  <Wolf01> Quak
17:27:34  <frosch123> moi
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17:52:47  <vslk> Hello
17:53:54  <vslk> I'm trying to load my old TTD-save on OpenTTD 1.7.0. Seems to work ok otherwise, but monorail-trains are moving very little
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17:57:15  <vslk> Uh oh.. All the monorail-trains are actually maglev-trains and therefore cant move
17:57:19  <vslk> Interesting..
18:10:36  <andythenorth> o/
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18:14:19  <Wolf01> o/
18:21:25  <Alberth> o/
18:22:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: it's not really about "it's not possible to solve", more about "it should be done properly" and "someone(tm) has to do it"
18:22:37  <Wolf01> Lets do it!
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18:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: also, when you transfer A->B, you don't know whether the cargo will arrive at C (or D, or E)
18:24:57  <Wolf01> Can't we use cargodist for that?
18:25:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's not cargodest
18:25:24  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo does not have a destination
18:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> just a probability when it arrives from hop A it goes to next hop B or next hop C
18:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but also, infra sharing should work properly without cargodest
18:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> *cargodist
18:27:41  <Wolf01> So it's totally random (for routes in which one possible destination accepts it)?
18:28:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, pretty much
18:28:29  <__ln__> is there a release date known for the pilot of Star Trek: Discovery?
18:29:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know any, but i haven't actually looked for one
18:30:21  <andythenorth> kaolin -> plastics factory?
18:30:32  <andythenorth> chemical chain in Extreme is beyond crap
18:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right
18:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> kaolin should go to a ceramics plant
18:34:08  <Wolf01> Ok, so the station knows where to send the cargo, even it's final destination, but it isn't carried forward by vehicles
18:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the station only knows the next hop
18:38:56  <Eddi|zuHause> not the final destination
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19:02:19  <frosch123> what's the difference between ESRB_PATH_TOO_LONG and ESRB_MAX_COST_EXCEEDED?
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19:11:37  <andythenorth> ceramics chain
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19:13:04  <Alberth> I don't have the latter?
19:14:50  <Alberth> oh, it's new
19:18:22  <Alberth> ESRB_PATH_TOO_LONG seems unused now
19:19:14  <frosch123> that's also my conclusion
19:19:28  <frosch123> it's kind of a rename, but with some other change combined
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19:31:43  <supermop_> andythenorth: no normal cargo decay, but small % decay for each load and unload from a vehicle?
19:31:50  <supermop_> as the ceramics get broken
19:32:50  <supermop_> andythenorth: best place to get a list of cargo labels for each type that has graphics drawn in hog?
19:35:16  <Alberth> grep for known cargo label in hog source code?
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19:35:59  <Alberth> or find name of the graphics, and find where it is used
19:37:48  <supermop_> hmm
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19:40:08  <supermop_> is it better to have sprites in 4 small pngs, or one png that's 4x the size?
19:40:46  <frosch123> it is better to have sprites of the same object in the same png
19:41:00  <frosch123> do not split a single vehicle over multiple files
19:41:26  <frosch123> try to reuse the same sprite template for multiple vehicles/cargos
19:41:52  <andythenorth> supermop_: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/road_vehicle.py#L566
19:58:00  <supermop_> frosch123: what is the reason for that?
19:58:32  <supermop_> if empty and full are in different pngs, i can reuse the same template for both empty and full
19:58:49  <frosch123> yes, for one vehicle
19:58:54  <frosch123> what about the second vehicle?
19:59:57  <supermop_> truck1_empty.png, truck1_full.png, truck2_empty.png, truck2_full.png....
20:00:27  <supermop_> same template could work for all trucks of same size
20:00:35  <supermop_> which in my case is all trucks
20:01:59  <supermop_> i figure that 4 100px *20Px pngs maybe are larger than a single 100*80 png maybe?
20:02:16  <supermop_> but otherwise is there a strong reason not to separate?
20:02:55  <frosch123> it's just easier to write the template, the result is  the same either way
20:03:14  <supermop_> working on a 800*1200 file in photoshop is a pain for scrolling around everywhere
20:03:48  <supermop_> so i've gradually gravitated toward smaller and smaller canvas sizes
20:06:05  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r27862 /branches/1.7 (11 files in 5 dirs) (2017-05-03 22:05:52 +0200 )
20:06:06  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.7] -Backport from trunk:
20:06:07  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Failed to load lzo compressed savegames sometimes [FS#6450] (r27793)
20:06:08  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: [Win32] Mark OpenTTD as DPI-aware to avoid OS window scaling that breaks mouse input [FS#6366] (r27791, r27790)
20:06:09  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: [NewGRF] Get vehicle load amount after executing new cargo trigger [FS#6536] (r27788)
20:06:10  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
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20:10:01  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r27863 /branches/1.7 (10 files in 5 dirs) (2017-05-03 22:09:51 +0200 )
20:10:02  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.7] -Backport from trunk:
20:10:03  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Black remap did nothing in 8bpp-simple blitter (r27837)
20:10:04  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Misaligned resize icon due to widget bounds being inclusive (r27831)
20:10:05  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Update viewport sign dimensions when changing GUI zoom level (r27827, r27819)
20:10:06  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
20:13:15  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r27864 /branches/1.7 (7 files in 3 dirs) (2017-05-03 22:13:05 +0200 )
20:13:16  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.7] -Backport from trunk:
20:13:17  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Add missing game script event for ships arriving at a station [FS#6560] (r27859, r27858)
20:13:18  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: StringID truncation to 16 bits broke string remapping test [FS#6555] (r27851)
20:13:19  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Infinite loop in pathfinder when checking safe waiting position from a waypoint [FS#5926] (r27846)
20:13:20  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
20:14:49  <Wolf01> Remove ships also :)
20:15:50  <frosch123> this time we need a starwars joke
20:16:10  <frosch123> rc1 on may the force
20:16:10  <Wolf01> "Changed large ufo to star destroyer"
20:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't say anything that is wrong
20:40:42  <Wolf01> Oh, "enabled realistic gravity FORCE for planes"
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20:43:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27865 /branches/1.7/src/lang (26 files) (2017-05-03 22:43:22 +0200 )
20:43:30  <DorpsGek> [1.7] -Backport from trunk: translation updates
20:45:44  <frosch123> 44 lines for a backport script
20:45:58  <frosch123> python scripts are so hillariously short
20:46:15  <frosch123> (with empty lines, without comments)
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20:48:52  <andythenorth> landlocked ports :(
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22:19:02  <Payl> Hi guys, I have question regarding openttd archaic development: I understand that OpenTTD was produced using reverse-engineering, but I assume TTD prevented any derivative work from it, so how OpenTTD was made possible then?
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22:23:39  <Payl|2> ST2: OpenTTD is GPL so it allows derivative work etc. but AFAIK TTD was never opensource, so how is that related?
22:24:33  <ST2> <Payl> Hi guys, (...)
22:24:37  <ST2> <Payl|2> ST2: OpenTTD (...)
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22:25:00  <ST2> is that a fork of Payl?
22:25:22  <Payl|2> ST2: Yup, I think there is irc-split going on now :P
22:25:36  <ST2> yeah :S
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22:26:47  <ST2> anyway, and as you mentioned about the split, better wait until things get stable... to make your question
22:26:56  <Payl|2> :D
22:27:00  <ST2> I'm not the right person to answer it :)
22:28:20  <Payl|2> yeah, but nobody here is lawyer to answer if that is legit or not, but I'm asking under what basis OpenTTD emerged... Was it just like I don't care about TTD rights, just make it open, or is it thought tru :)
22:29:01  <ST2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTTD
22:29:09  <ST2> all what I can say ^^
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22:32:19  <Payl|2> ST2: sadly wikipedia and other similiar sources seem to miss details that I'm after, because it's just said that OpenTTD is GPL, but TTD was commercial, and you can't just magically make GPL out of commercial :P
22:33:21  <ST2> and probably you won't find original OpenTTD makers here to answer it (I think) :)
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22:34:43  <ST2> but I hope you find here people to answer your questions
22:34:53  <ST2> my suggestions: try a bit earlier :)
22:34:59  <ST2> suggestion*
22:35:12  <Payl|2> ST2: thats what scares me :D because clearly original media was never redistributed with OpenTTD, do you have idea why?
22:35:31  <ST2> [23:34:47] <ST2> my suggestion: try a bit earlier :)
22:35:34  <Payl|2> ST2: yeah, i probably should ask earlier, but it just occured to me recently :D
22:35:57  <glx_> because original media is copyrighted
22:36:27  <Payl|2> alright, original media is copyrighted, but game exectuable wasnt?
22:37:03  <Payl|2> because clearly OpenTTD = Taking TTD executable and reversing it into code which would be illegal in most cases, so... eh?
22:37:12  <glx_> not in sweden
22:37:36  <_dp_> Payl|2, check tt-forums, lisensing was discussed multiple times there
22:38:00  <Payl|2> _dp_: I looked in archaic forums but couldn't find anything interesting, any pointers? :)
22:38:42  <Payl|2> glx_: ok, can you save me learning swedish and tell me what is allowed in sweden if you know? because it's very interesting
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22:41:00  <ST2> may I ask Payl|2: why the sudden curiosity?
22:41:04  <_dp_> Payl|2, there is a bit here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=74858
22:41:33  <Payl|2> ST2: not really sudden, always wonedered and now i have to make essay on "history of open source games" so i want to get bottom where i can :)
22:41:48  <glx_> I don't know exactly, but when ludde did it it was allowed
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22:43:26  <_dp_> Payl|2, https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=15157
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22:44:21  <ST2> _dp_ done the search for Payl|2 :)
22:44:51  * _dp_ google pro xD
22:45:03  <ST2> hehe
22:45:33  <Payl|2> _dp_: thanks! Sorry i didnt respond earlier was just trying to read it xD
22:46:18  <Payl|2> ok so bottom point seems to be that "somewhere" it is legal to do that... which is rather weird but probably nobody here knows how exactly swedish law states that...
22:47:15  * ST2 searching for some exotic countries (hot, of preference) xD
22:48:30  <Payl|2> ST2: it's best not to search for too exotic otherwise you will end up with a country that is closed up oil platform
22:48:56  <glx_> that's not a hot one :)
22:49:19  <ST2> meh, with beautifull women... even "oil" goes well (well as intended pun xD)
22:49:35  <Payl|2> glx_: it might be if we are talking about drama, because I think they hosted thepiratebay at one point... ohwell
22:50:32  <ST2> sec, oppening bets table that Payl|2 is studying at a law schooll
22:50:42  <ST2> and yeah, bets are legal here xD
22:50:59  *** glx_ is now known as glx
22:51:03  <Payl|2> whats interesting is that openrct2 which seems to have same "licensing" problem as openttd but author of openrct2 is from great britain :P
22:51:18  <Payl|2> ST2: I'm studying informatics, plot twist
22:51:50  <ST2> ok, let me add the plot twist to the bets xD
22:51:59  <Payl|2> sadly they wanted me to dive into licensing BS on one subject and since I love OpenTTD here i am :D
22:53:30  <glx> it's probably a grey zone like abandonware
22:55:35  <Payl|2> glx: i always assumed that somehow it is legal :( But ohwell, i guess it is legal as long as they don't call you out. And they can't since all TTD code was rewritten already
22:58:06  <supermop_> Payl|2: i cannpt speak for ttd patch, but effectively OpenTTD is fresh code in C that happens to achieve similar results to TTD's original assembler code
22:59:07  <ST2> supermop_: lets call it now C++ (for the most ^^)
22:59:32  <supermop_> ST2: yeah, but i was unsure what the original project was done as
22:59:43  <Payl|2> supermop: tddpatch is effectivelly a patch AFAIK and hence is just illegal in most countries
23:00:23  <Cubey> These issues are complicated because the rules about patents, trademarks, and copyrights are different, but also interact with each other
23:00:58  <ST2> supermop_: you're correct - can we have a C+   (on the middle xD)
23:01:15  <Payl|2> Cubey: I'd say problem isn't with rules
23:01:29  <Payl|2> problem is that a court could say screw rules
23:01:46  <Cubey> Well like, the idea of abandonware as a "grey area"
23:02:04  <Cubey> It's not really a legally grey area, it's either under copyright or it isn't
23:02:25  <Cubey> But if the trademarks are no longer in use, the owner of the copyright might not care about it
23:02:37  <glx> abandonware is illegal, but there is some tolerance
23:02:39  <Payl|2> Cubey: true, but with openTTD it might be hard to establish whenever it is full legit or grey
23:02:46  <supermop_> Payl|2: yes, patch is open and shut reverse engineering
23:03:11  <Cubey> OpenTTD could violate patents without violating any copyrights
23:03:18  <Cubey> I don't know whether any part of the original TTD was patented though
23:03:50  <glx> IIRC there is no software patents in europe
23:04:04  <supermop_> likely not any enforcable patents on it
23:04:17  <Payl|2> I doubt that TTD was patented... but TTD might have violated patents itself, because patents are very specific usually lol
23:04:30  <supermop_> you can patent a game concept in the US, but actually enforcing it is very tricky and complex
23:04:44  <Cubey> Software patents are super problematic both in theory and in practice
23:04:51  <Payl|2> hire a good lawyer and TTD did violate patents, hire a bad one and it didn't :)
23:05:32  <Cubey> I think the conclusion has to be that any blanket statement you make about intellectual property law is probably going to have some exceptions
23:05:57  <glx> software patents are silly, because with a given input there are many ways to get the same output
23:06:10  <Cubey> The gray areas aren't so much gaps in the law as they are gaps in how the law is practiced and used
23:06:53  <Cubey> Couldn't the game itself be patented, as opposed to the code that executes the game?
23:07:18  <Cubey> I mean, today a TTD-like game could not be patented because there are so many examples of prior art
23:07:36  <Payl|2> We are going into meta-talking here, but even speaking of OpenTTD, it might have been "ok" to reverse engineer game and produce another work
23:08:02  <supermop_> Cubey: you can still patent it depending on how you write the application
23:08:05  <Cubey> I'm sure openttd is "OK" because it's still around
23:08:24  <Cubey> If anybody had a claim against it, they've lost it now just by not using it
23:08:29  <supermop_> but someone could get your patent invalidated by citing prior art if you make your's too general
23:08:31  <Payl|2> Cubey: it's like saying "because i shot someone and i'm not caught already it must be OK" ;)
23:08:42  <Cubey> In IP law that is actually how it works though
23:08:52  <supermop_> Payl|2: that is how it works if you shoot someone too
23:08:56  <Cubey> Trademarks have to be vigorously defended
23:09:01  <supermop_> if you wait long enough
23:09:05  <glx> and chris sawyer has already enough problems with the publisher about who owns the game IIRC
23:09:08  <Cubey> There is usually no statute of limitations on murder
23:09:34  <Payl|2> Cubey: *depending on country
23:09:42  <Cubey> True
23:09:52  <supermop_> Cubey: exactly, that's why you sometimes see a ridiculous case of someone suing some little guy that barely even in fringes, even if they loose the case and it generates bad publicity
23:10:20  <Payl|2> supermop: i thought thats how elections work
23:11:24  <Payl|2> i guess programmers don't make good lawyers since they tend to interpret law instead of applying it lol
23:11:26  <supermop_> because then later, a malicious actor can say - company x didn;t enforce patent against little guy Y, so patent does not apply
23:11:38  *** Biolunar has quit IRC
23:11:47  <supermop_> my wife is a programmer and her sister is an IP lawyer
23:11:59  <Cubey> It looks like in the United States the statute of limitations on criminal proceedings resulting from copyright violation is five years, and for civil actions three years
23:12:02  <supermop_> between the two of them i get a good insight
23:12:34  <Payl|2> Cubey: remember that this occured in sweden, so whocares about US :P
23:12:55  <Cubey> The US generally has harsher IP laws than European countries
23:12:58  <glx> supermop_: usually the ridiculous cases come from patent trolls
23:13:08  <Cubey> So if something is in the clear in the US, it's probably fine in Sweden too
23:13:32  <Cubey> Of course that's just speculation... not good to rely on assumptions where the law is concerned
23:13:39  <Payl|2> Cubey: it is in clear now, but not when it was done ;)
23:13:53  <Payl|2> or was it, thats the question...
23:14:12  <Cubey> Either way, it's probably too late for anyone to do anything about it now in any relevant jurisdiction
23:14:59  <Payl|2> Cubey: yes, but point of talking about it is that it can be applied to OpenRCT2 or any to-be-made OpenX game
23:15:38  <Cubey> OpenRCT is potentially more fraught because the rollercoaster tycoon trademark is still in use
23:15:54  <Cubey> They even came out with a mobile version of RCT2 recently, right
23:16:12  <Payl|2> really? I heard of RCT4 on mobile or sth like that
23:16:43  <Cubey> I don't know what it is called, but I know that you can use savegames and scenarios from RCT2 with it
23:17:16  <Payl|2> Cubey: god i hope it isn't patented :D but honestly it doesn't mean anything about if they actually used same game
23:17:42  <Cubey> Yeah, the potential issue I'm seeing is with the name, not the functionality
23:17:47  <Payl|2> i actually doubt it's RCT2 since RCT2=assembly ;)
23:18:36  <Payl|2> Cubey: did you ever tried playing OpenTTD on phone? it works sure, but UI is terrible and sadly it wont work good unless you make 1000x zoom
23:19:15  <glx> mobile version is not official and not supported ;)
23:19:25  <Cubey> Actually I think I first got into openttd because I noticed it was one of those things that gets ported to every imaginable platform
23:19:49  <Cubey> That would've been a little bit before smartphones became widespread though
23:20:27  <glx> we still have windows CE traces in source code :)
23:20:32  <Payl|2> I picked up OpenTTD because I enjoyed TTD and OpenTTD is just plain better TTD
23:20:37  <Cubey> I haven't played the mobile RCT game but I've seen a lot of screenshots, and the interface is much chunkier and "finger friendly," but also much uglier and not fitting with the pixel art assets at all
23:21:13  <Payl|2> and honestly one thing OpenTTD does great is that it can handle thousands of vehicles moving at once, which removes virtually any limits on most machines.
23:21:35  <Cubey> I never had TTD as a kid. I might not even be old enough to have been exposed to it
23:22:04  <glx> Payl|2: you never tried to load so openttdcoop savegames ;)
23:22:04  <Payl|2> well i'm not old, but i have dosbox/vms :P
23:22:32  <Cubey> My laptop is only like 6 years old and the game definitely slows to a crawl when I have thousands of vehicles on a huge map
23:22:36  <Payl|2> glx: i tried it to check performance of my computer, was stable and working :P
23:23:10  <glx> openttd still use only 1 core for all game logic
23:23:14  <Payl|2> btw. does openttd make use of multithreaded cpus?
23:23:21  <Payl|2> oh lol i was just about to ask it <3
23:23:52  <glx> because everything needs to be synchronised
23:23:59  <Payl|2> glx: please make it NUMA aware, cant wait to run it on my 12-core dual-xeon setup
23:24:31  <Cubey> It seems like an openttd-like game could be massively parallelized down to the level of individual trains
23:24:54  <Payl|2> Cubey: you are actually wrong, since synchronization is a cost
23:25:22  <Cubey> Doesn't the game proceed in tics?
23:25:43  <Payl|2> Cubey: it does, but trains "race" for signals
23:25:47  <glx> it does but everything should happen in the exact same order on all clients
23:25:59  <glx> else multiplayer is dead
23:26:00  <Cubey> Oh that's true
23:26:47  <Payl|2> IMO problem isn't order, since you can fix it if it ever goes wrong, but synchronization of every signal
23:27:30  <Cubey> What if you only implemented path signals
23:27:39  *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd
23:28:12  <glx> same problem
23:28:15  <Payl|2> Cubey: it isn't problem on this level, it is a problem that two threads have to stop on >every signal<
23:28:17  <Cubey> Oh I guess you still have to worry about which train reserved a path first
23:29:06  <Payl|2> what could be parallelized is map tick
23:29:27  <glx> not really as every thing relies on the map
23:29:53  <Payl|2> glx: are there any events that couldn't wait for next tick?
23:30:03  <glx> user events ;)
23:30:35  <Payl|2> assuming user did X, and map did Y, it can be synchronized once per tick, user won't notice ;p
23:31:12  <ST2> what glx said is: user X done this, user Y did that... etc
23:31:14  <Wolf01> 'night
23:31:18  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
23:31:37  <Payl|2> ST2: even now it's done only once per tick
23:31:59  <ST2> any other idea?
23:32:08  <glx> yes commands are already queued
23:32:44  <ST2> and processed, I get it glx :)
23:33:26  <Payl|2> so it's mostly just that it a lot of mess done in order to divide job a little further
23:33:54  <glx> it's quite impossible to make use of multiple cores without rewriting openttd from scratch
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23:34:15  <glx> the actual code is not designed for multicore
23:34:23  <Payl|2> glx: not impossible, but nearly impossible without breaking something major :P
23:35:06  <Payl|2> worst of all are all GRFs that can do anything they want
23:35:36  <glx> no they can't :)
23:35:52  <Payl|2> glx: proof you are wrong:
23:36:03  <Payl|2> openttd already uses multiple threads
23:36:20  <Payl|2> for cargo calculations ;)
23:37:07  <Payl|2> i know thats not what we are looking for anyways :)
23:37:57  <Payl|2> ST2: in short, either buy a new laptop
23:38:16  <Payl|2> or don't make huge openttd maps ;p
23:41:19  *** Snail has joined #openttd
23:58:48  <ST2> [00:56:23] <Payl|2> [01:37:57] ST2: in short, either buy a new laptop  <<-- can you explain why the suggestion?

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