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no commands working? no one to help with trolls/blockers? 14:24:37 <ST2> HeyCitizen :) 14:24:42 <ST2> what you talking about? 14:24:45 <V453000> this is the internet 14:24:47 <V453000> we are sparta 14:25:21 <HeyCitizen> so we have a couple of cities on server 1 that have become saturated with stations from the same player 14:25:44 <HeyCitizen> doesnt give a fuuu 14:25:49 <V453000> this is a general openttd channel not for some specific servers :P where are you from? reddit? 14:26:00 <V453000> probably not 14:26:02 <HeyCitizen> rediit ye 14:26:19 <V453000> that would be channel #/r/openttd 14:27:37 *** NGC3982 has quit IRC 14:28:36 <peter1138> heh 14:28:54 <peter1138> but reddit is the front page of the internet, or something 14:29:09 <V453000> right that 14:48:28 *** namad7 has joined #openttd 14:58:26 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 15:01:27 *** NGC3982 has joined #openttd 15:04:17 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 15:08:39 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 15:15:30 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 15:24:58 *** NGC3982 has quit IRC 15:33:49 *** NGC3982 has joined #openttd 15:38:30 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 15:58:09 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 16:22:42 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 16:25:53 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:31:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:34:33 *** fiatjaf has joined #openttd 16:40:42 *** debdog has quit IRC 16:43:56 *** debdog has joined #openttd 17:08:12 *** Gja has joined #openttd 17:12:36 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a88oVXO_700b_v1.jpg and then there's Italy which is so shitty which isn't even considered for the charts :P 17:12:46 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 17:20:37 <Wolf01> Oh, something I could draw! 17:20:44 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aGejLLX_700b.jpg 17:22:57 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 17:32:02 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:32:02 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:38:20 <V453000> well there you go ;P 17:39:41 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 17:55:19 *** Gja has quit IRC 18:04:16 <Wolf01> V, why no FFF yet? Was your turn heh? :D 18:04:32 <V453000> nah 18:04:46 <V453000> I'm probably not going to write anything for a while 18:04:52 <V453000> doing small things, not much to tell 18:05:09 <Wolf01> You could talk about slugs 18:05:42 <V453000> probably not :) 18:12:22 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 18:20:29 *** Gja has joined #openttd 18:24:03 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 18:30:05 <Alberth> Wolf01: They added Belgium, but not Holland :p 18:30:30 <Alberth> while we are quite well connected 18:31:15 <Alberth> probably we didn't fit in the message they wanted to give :p 18:44:09 *** Alberth has left #openttd 18:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm surprised germany is even on that list 18:51:49 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 19:07:26 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 19:21:01 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 19:21:11 <Wolf01> Miau 19:21:15 <andythenorth> hi 19:26:21 *** Gja has quit IRC 19:37:56 * andythenorth back at a real laptop 19:38:19 <andythenorth> phones and tablets really don’t cut it :P 19:38:31 <Wolf01> \o/ 19:40:51 <andythenorth> everything is remarkably better on a proper device 19:52:51 <andythenorth> did anyone finish FIRS 3 while I was away? o_O 19:54:13 <Wolf01> There was a guy, andythe_ or something like it who wanted to do it 19:57:00 *** gpsoft has joined #openttd 19:58:31 <andythenorth> should port-type industries include a dock/heliport tile? 19:58:38 <andythenorth> (station) 19:59:29 <Wolf01> Like oil rigs but on shores? 20:00:24 <andythenorth> yup 20:01:48 <Wolf01> It would be better to have a port included 20:02:05 <andythenorth> I just argued in forums that it would suck :) 20:03:13 <gpsoft> Anybody knows how to analyse crash logs? 20:04:04 <Wolf01> Maybe they could be used to spoil cargo distribution in an infrastructure sharing flavour like oil rigs do 20:12:29 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 20:15:37 <supermop_> andythenorth: port would be neat 20:16:17 <supermop_> esp when port builds itself in such a way it is awkward to fit your own dock in without terraforming 20:16:19 <andythenorth> double posts are BAD eh? 20:16:35 * andythenorth just released another FIRS, but last post in FIRS thread is mine :P 20:16:49 <supermop_> i guess the dock might get stuck by terrain sometimes though 20:16:55 <andythenorth> yup 20:17:01 <andythenorth> also heliports :P 20:17:35 <supermop_> really heliports could go anywhere i guess 20:19:33 <andythenorth> maybe we need newgrf industry stations :P 20:19:39 <andythenorth> probably not eh 20:19:46 <andythenorth> NewDocks would be better :) 20:20:32 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:20:53 <Wolf01> Also NotWater could be better 20:21:40 <andythenorth> currently we’re NotShipping :) 20:21:45 <andythenorth> terrible pun :P 20:25:08 *** Progman has quit IRC 20:25:56 <Wolf01> Shit, I lost track of the ant, they smell my biscuits :| 20:28:14 <andythenorth> that’s like a haiku 20:28:59 <Wolf01> If the structure is fine, then it would be my first one XD 20:41:01 <supermop_> Wolf01: no one says that after a few thousand years you cannot invent your own new poetry structure 20:41:35 <supermop_> should head to LGA soon, but flight delayed 2.5 hours 20:41:47 <Wolf01> :( 20:42:15 <supermop_> dislike laguardia 20:42:20 <supermop_> dislike united 20:42:31 <Wolf01> At least you aren't kept in detention like my last time 20:42:37 * andythenorth all done with flying today 20:42:50 <andythenorth> 3.5 hours 20:47:00 *** roidal has joined #openttd 20:49:01 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:49:56 <supermop_> wheres that to then 20:50:14 <supermop_> this one will just be LGA to ORD 20:50:40 <supermop_> but summer in the midwest means ORD has delays for thunderstorms almost daily 20:51:24 <andythenorth> flew back from Tenerife 20:57:34 <supermop_> ooh now its been delayed an additional 75 min 21:00:11 *** Compu has quit IRC 21:00:33 *** Compu has joined #openttd 21:01:59 <andythenorth> hmm 21:02:10 <andythenorth> poor branch discipline means Road Hog is a bit fucked :P 21:02:26 <andythenorth> I have fixes and code quality improvements mixed up with NRT stuff 21:03:00 <supermop_> better just get NRT into trunk then 21:03:07 <Wolf01> Yes 21:05:56 <andythenorth> what’s left? 21:06:04 <Wolf01> Stuff 21:06:24 <andythenorth> always :) 21:06:35 <Wolf01> Mainly fixes and a lot of features 21:06:49 <Wolf01> GameScript integration 21:07:02 <Wolf01> Maybe AI too 21:08:52 <Wolf01> BTW, I love calling stuff stuff, my ex coworker seldom still ask me how to call a new class and I reply "Stuff" without giving him time to write "and don't answer with "Stuff"" 21:14:21 * andythenorth tests docklands and unspooled 21:14:43 <supermop_> andythenorth: they are just pixels 21:14:53 <andythenorth> isn’t it 21:15:07 * andythenorth wondering wtf to do about NRT spec :) 21:16:10 <supermop_> need level crossing pixels 21:16:32 <andythenorth> wondering if roads should be built like rail stations are built 21:16:42 <andythenorth> choose route/vehicle type 21:16:43 <supermop_> actually i think i drew level crossings, just didn't know how to code them 21:16:47 <andythenorth> then choose sprites 21:16:59 <andythenorth> appearance and routing should be orthogonal 21:17:05 <andythenorth> it’s more steps for building though 21:17:26 <andythenorth> is catenary appearance, or routing? 21:18:13 <andythenorth> supermop_: is docklands serious, or hax? :) 21:18:35 * andythenorth wondering if it would work better as road stops, or if it’s desirable that the tiles aren’t stops 21:18:41 <supermop_> it is seriously something i wanted to see in game for a long time 21:19:06 <supermop_> maybe, if road stops could be large and sprawling like richbk? wanted? 21:19:12 <supermop_> dk if that was who it was 21:20:51 <Wolf01> I sometime give a look at the vehicle movement code, it doesn't seem so difficult, maybe with a proper documentation... 21:21:49 <Wolf01> I may look on making 4 lanes roadstops or such 21:21:49 <andythenorth> road vehicle movement? 21:22:00 * andythenorth has read road vehicle movement code 21:22:04 <andythenorth> it’s not so bad 21:22:23 <andythenorth> any changes to stations, roadstops, airports 21:22:36 <andythenorth> always get stuck on ‘but we need a generic state machine for tiles, in newgrf' 21:22:45 <Wolf01> Yes 21:22:48 <andythenorth> which is, of course, fricking stupid and unachievable 21:22:55 <andythenorth> in any practical sense 21:23:17 <andythenorth> the number of people who could use such a state machine spec can probably be counted on two hands 21:23:28 <Wolf01> Yes, because you might want to differentiate the movement by vehicle and by the tile graphics too 21:23:37 <andythenorth> and the number of people who could design and implement the spec for it can be counted on no fingers or thumbs 21:24:04 <andythenorth> it’s not always winning to do it in newgrf 21:24:15 <andythenorth> hard-coding additional airports in ottd was a great move 21:24:39 <andythenorth> the gameplay cost of that was very low, compared to theoretical idea of having arbitrary airports 21:24:42 <andythenorth> most of which would suck 21:25:18 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 21:25:36 <Wolf01> He didn't like this 21:26:09 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 21:26:41 * andythenorth wonders if NRT should offer control over ‘sidewalks’ 21:26:51 <andythenorth> but eh, they’re drawn behind the road layer 21:27:07 <andythenorth> basically an eye candy option, independent of the label 21:27:40 <Wolf01> There are sidewalk features like poles, trees 21:27:41 <andythenorth> same, I think as frosch is proposing with groundtypes, except I’m unclear exactly what groundtypes proposal is as yet 21:27:46 *** roidal has quit IRC 21:27:49 <supermop_> andythenorth: the number of people who can or will use any new spec or feature for openttd can probably be counted on two hands 21:28:06 * andythenorth counts 21:28:13 <supermop_> i can count the number of people using NRT spec on one hand with fingers to spare 21:28:13 <Wolf01> I count 3 21:28:56 <andythenorth> I used all fingers & thumbs trivially 21:28:58 <andythenorth> :OP 21:29:08 <andythenorth> not even counting people who’ve rage quit 21:29:31 <andythenorth> I think there are 20 or 30 people creating credible work, and releasing 21:30:46 <supermop_> one day i will join them to make it 21 21:30:58 <andythenorth> basically if roads grew an eye candy option, then authors could add all the extra crap like parking lots, trees, fountains, 21:31:02 <andythenorth> road signs 21:31:05 <andythenorth> parked trucks 21:31:15 <Wolf01> You can already use objects for that 21:31:17 <andythenorth> snow ploughs 21:31:32 <andythenorth> yeah, but these would be in the 8px or so at the edge of the road 21:31:37 <andythenorth> flowerbeds 21:31:55 <andythenorth> concrete median (dividers) 21:32:31 <andythenorth> Wolf01: if you do figure out vehicle code, can you add a switch for ‘drift mode’? 21:32:38 * andythenorth has been watching Ken Block videos again 21:32:56 <andythenorth> drift is quite easy to simulate, I’ve done it in flash games 21:33:13 <andythenorth> but ideally the rotation point is moved towards the vehicle front 21:33:36 <Wolf01> Mmmmh 21:34:05 <andythenorth> how many bits are left in the map then? 21:34:42 <andythenorth> and what’s the idea about making tram and road both provided by same grf? 21:34:51 <supermop_> idk 21:34:52 <andythenorth> what is spec for that? 21:35:02 <Wolf01> https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=195989&sid=218e644e737dbf645af9708cdbba4f73 the only problem with objects is that they need to be on the free tiles on the sides, and they can "overflow" on the road 21:35:10 <supermop_> seems like there is no need to enforcethat 21:35:15 <Wolf01> It might be difficult in cities 21:35:39 <supermop_> ok im going to try to go to the airport now 21:36:00 <supermop_> expect NRT to be in stable when i get back 21:36:04 <supermop_> later 21:36:09 <andythenorth> :) 21:36:50 <andythenorth> objects waste a lot of tiles Wolf01 ;) 21:37:09 <andythenorth> have you tried the docklands grf? 21:37:15 <Wolf01> Also, somebody just provided a patch to let cities build tramways, check the forum https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=76806 21:37:39 <andythenorth> did he fork it from NRT? o_O 21:37:56 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> have you tried the docklands grf? <- yes, it's nice, finally got rid of the fake roads made with the non-track tiles stations 21:38:19 <andythenorth> I think it’s docklands that most shows weakness of curent spec 21:38:40 <andythenorth> all types there are equivalent, it’s just eye candy 21:38:48 <Wolf01> Yes 21:39:01 <Wolf01> That's the reason behind groundtypes 21:39:27 <Wolf01> And the same reason behind my suggestion to make NRT types dynamic 21:40:35 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 21:40:45 <Wolf01> The only downside is that you have unified labels then, you can't make a HAUL road and a HAUL tramway 21:40:58 <andythenorth> we need a UI mockup for groundtypes 21:41:06 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 21:41:15 <andythenorth> it’s something like objects, but more compact 21:41:20 <Wolf01> Yeah 21:42:15 <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s significant whether labels are unique or unified 21:42:38 <andythenorth> either is fine, it should be chosen to fit other more important constraints 21:43:13 <andythenorth> what’s the benefit of unifying? 21:44:33 <Wolf01> Both kind of vehicles see the same list 21:45:28 <Wolf01> Maybe you can even check if there's a tramway catenary from a trolleybus 21:46:10 <Wolf01> Just query the tile types and OR the properties 21:46:26 <Wolf01> If one of the two has catenary, then win 21:46:34 <andythenorth> any other benefits? o_O 21:47:00 <Wolf01> But I think we can already do that now, just change some stuff 21:47:24 <Wolf01> Like cycle the types instead of getting the vehicle roadtype 21:47:48 <Wolf01> I don't think there are many benefits 21:49:20 <andythenorth> the catenary thing seems to be an outsized problem :P 21:49:41 <Wolf01> BTW, the data structure will stay the same, is only the array in which are loaded the gfrs to change 21:50:14 <Wolf01> Yes, it's just the "CompatibleRoadType()" to change 21:50:18 <andythenorth> what’s the current set up, one catenary? 21:50:20 *** skyline has joined #openttd 21:50:35 <Wolf01> Yes, road catenary wins 21:50:36 <andythenorth> no, the spec says both types can define catenary 21:50:56 <Wolf01> But only road's one will be drawn, if present 21:51:14 <andythenorth> oh yes 21:51:16 <andythenorth> ok 21:51:23 <andythenorth> spec page mentions that 21:51:34 <andythenorth> maybe just draw both :P 21:52:04 <andythenorth> or leave it as is and [shrug] 21:52:45 <andythenorth> I guess the problem remains knowing if trams have a valid route or not 21:53:22 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 21:53:23 *** skyline has quit IRC 21:53:38 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 21:53:43 <Wolf01> The game knows already what to do, the user has a hard way to tell if the route is valid 21:53:52 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 21:54:14 <andythenorth> and in 8bpp, drawing both catenaries will always be hard 21:55:37 <andythenorth> hmm, well there will be a simplification somewhere 21:55:43 * andythenorth will sleep on it 21:56:17 <Wolf01> I would give a try with both catenaries, usually they should just overlap and draw 2 times the same pixels, worst case: http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/25/23/56/5585806/3/rawImage.jpg 21:56:36 <andythenorth> I considered overlapping 21:56:46 <andythenorth> but that doesn’t solve the player routing knowledge :) 21:56:53 <andythenorth> no visual cue 21:56:55 <Wolf01> But back in time I made the transparent catenary options, so... 21:57:02 *** mescalito has quit IRC 21:57:22 <andythenorth> it comes down to either 21:57:30 <andythenorth> (1) distinct graphics or visual cue 21:57:58 <andythenorth> or (2) a specific ‘needs catenary on tile’ flag for vehicles 21:58:33 <andythenorth> requiring catenary limits potential for newgrf hax for weird stuff 21:59:02 <andythenorth> and means vehicle author has to duplicate information (tramtype label and flag) 21:59:18 <andythenorth> or having labels for electrified types is pointless 22:00:12 <andythenorth> or (I think suggested already) 22:00:37 <andythenorth> a single grf controls the tiles, and there’s a mapping of roadtypes:tramtypes 22:00:59 <andythenorth> e.g, if it’s ELRD, then any tram bits are ELRL 22:01:33 <Wolf01> (x) move the catenary to it's own bit into the tile (your first idea), add a tool to place catenary, newgrfs define catenary aspect (no separation between tramway and road ones|3 definitions: tram alone, road alone, road+tram|road = road+tram, tram alone) 22:02:04 <andythenorth> eh, they’re all a bit complex eh? 22:02:26 <Wolf01> There's no simple solution or we would already have done that 22:04:56 <Wolf01> With road+tram means the author need to define all the possible combinations he want to make possible, it's combinatory, you'll get a soccer field of catenary sprites 22:08:13 <andythenorth> the answer needs to come from player perspective 22:08:27 <andythenorth> I can’t be having stuck trams, as player :) 22:09:06 <andythenorth> the problem is that what looks like catenary in a sensible grf might be something else in a hax grf 22:09:22 <andythenorth> or rather, we can’t rely on multiple grfs to co-operate at all 22:10:11 <Wolf01> With groundtypes already you can only have only one grf's types on a tile 22:10:24 <Wolf01> Maybe even only one NRT grf at all 22:10:26 <andythenorth> hmm 22:10:34 <andythenorth> callback 22:10:54 <andythenorth> when adding roadtype/tramtype bits 22:11:29 <andythenorth> stick the current roadtype/tramtype in a var, and let the author return what type it should be changed to 22:11:44 <andythenorth> so e.g. if adding ELRD to a tile with ROAD and RAIL 22:11:59 <andythenorth> the cb returns ELRL 22:12:13 <andythenorth> assume authors do the right thing 22:12:49 <andythenorth> with a cb, everything falls to author 22:13:01 <andythenorth> they can check crazy stuff like date, terrain type, town zone, all kinds of crap 22:13:21 <andythenorth> but a good grf will just make sure that trams work on trolleybus road and vice versa 22:13:29 <andythenorth> and it’s all on the author to make it sane 22:14:19 <andythenorth> I think this also fixes town roads 22:14:43 <andythenorth> assuming that adding ELRL causes an upgrade to ELRD for the town-owned ROAD 22:15:26 <andythenorth> if the author doesn’t want automatic conversion like that, it’s up to them 22:15:35 <andythenorth> and they are responsible for confused players :P 22:16:04 <Wolf01> Yup, I agree 22:16:19 <andythenorth> also cbs are easy to spec and implement :P 22:16:44 <andythenorth> I think this does maybe imply only one grf per tile 22:16:47 <andythenorth> not sure 22:17:26 <andythenorth> authors can trivially be responsible for the upgrade graph when they control the inputs 22:17:39 <andythenorth> but not if the inputs (lables) are unknown and arbitrary (other grfs) 22:18:17 <andythenorth> I don’t know how ‘only one grf per tile’ would be explainable in gameplay 22:18:44 <andythenorth> seems like players would constantly see error message 22:19:11 <Wolf01> With 3 NRT grfs we already got a crash 22:19:27 <Wolf01> I'm for a single, well done NRT grf for each game 22:19:37 <andythenorth> that is appealing 22:19:46 <andythenorth> but goes against the prevailing trend for grfs 22:19:48 <Wolf01> Like a single, well done industry grf, railtype grf 22:20:28 <Wolf01> Eh, maybe you want american trams and european trucks 22:20:38 <andythenorth> I think it’s worth trying to keep the idea of multiple NRT grfs 22:20:52 <andythenorth> if authors stuck to a limited set of labels.... 22:20:55 <Wolf01> Or a grf only provide pax trams and you want heavy equipments too 22:20:58 <andythenorth> it would be fine 22:21:11 <andythenorth> if we mostly had ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL 22:21:47 <Wolf01> We mostly have ROAD, ELRL :P 22:21:53 <andythenorth> and not ‘35mph trams with metre gauge, 120 pound rail and 600v DC electrification returning to ground’ 22:23:10 * andythenorth wonders about forcing every type to specificy whether building it causes ELRD / ELRL upgrade 22:23:54 <andythenorth> and forcing every grf to specify whether it provides ELRD/ELRL 22:24:36 <andythenorth> ‘label if unpowered tile' 22:24:39 <andythenorth> ‘label if powered tile' 22:24:56 <andythenorth> dual labels for every type? 22:25:31 <Wolf01> This should open possibilities like "you can't upgrade RAIL to ELRL, xxRD can't have catenary" 22:25:40 <andythenorth> I like the dual labels idea 22:26:09 <andythenorth> it supports also the idea of types that don’t care about powered 22:26:19 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:26:24 <andythenorth> e.g. MUDR or something for mud roads 22:26:30 <andythenorth> could stay as MUDR either way 22:26:50 <andythenorth> so I add ELRL to mud, flipping the powered bit for the tile 22:26:59 <andythenorth> and it stays as MUDR also 22:27:20 <andythenorth> I add ELRL to ROAD, flipping the powered bit for the tile 22:27:25 <andythenorth> and now we have ELRD 22:27:43 <andythenorth> but the type that already existed defines it’s own label 22:27:51 <andythenorth> so arbitrary grfs can combine safely 22:28:07 <Wolf01> You know that in 3 hours I only made a test suite for a single class with 2 assertions? ^_^ 22:28:11 <andythenorth> :P 22:28:20 <andythenorth> does the test actually work? 22:28:28 <andythenorth> many tests don’t, in my limited experience 22:28:40 <andythenorth> I try breaking the app to test the tests 22:29:03 <Wolf01> I should exercise on test driven development, and I usually make only simple tests as I'm lazy 22:30:10 <andythenorth> if I downgrade ELRL to RAIL, does that unflip the powered bit for the tile? 22:30:15 <Wolf01> BTW, back on topic, you are elaborating this <Wolf01> (x) move the catenary to it's own bit into the tile (your first idea), add a tool to place catenary, newgrfs define catenary aspect (no separation between tramway and road ones|3 definitions: tram alone, road alone, road+tram|road = road+tram, tram alone) 22:30:16 <andythenorth> breaking the ELRD? 22:30:42 <andythenorth> I am forcing the idea that every type has to accomodate a catenary bit 22:31:09 <andythenorth> but it would be built implicitly, no need for an extra tool (and extra UI and crap) 22:31:16 <andythenorth> dual labels for every type 22:31:33 <andythenorth> I guess it’s OR and NAND 22:31:45 <andythenorth> either type can flip the bit on 22:31:58 <andythenorth> both types have to downgrade to flip the bit off 22:32:12 <Wolf01> You should have 3 possibilities: has catenary bit but no catenary (eg. MUDR) | has catenary bit and provides catenary (ROAD, ELRD) | doesn't allow catenary 22:32:30 <Wolf01> This because reasons 22:33:09 <andythenorth> ‘incompatible with types that flip the powered bit on’ 22:33:13 *** dark_pingus has quit IRC 22:33:31 <Wolf01> Exactly 22:33:40 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> both types have to downgrade to flip the bit off <- Agreed 22:33:57 <andythenorth> frosch will explain to me tomorrow why this is stupid :D 22:34:01 <Wolf01> But how do you tell the player? 22:34:07 <andythenorth> player will figure it out 22:34:16 <andythenorth> also it doesn’t usually matter 22:34:25 <andythenorth> ROAD vehicles can route on ELRD 22:34:36 <Wolf01> You downgrade ELRL to RAIL but ELRD stays, you'll drive the player mad 22:34:51 <andythenorth> it’s better than breaking routes 22:35:15 <andythenorth> I can see the purpose of a separate catenary tool 22:35:18 <andythenorth> but eh 22:35:34 <Wolf01> But it's the same as now "I added ELRL to ROAD, nor I removed ELRL but the catenary is still there" 22:35:44 <andythenorth> yes 22:35:50 <andythenorth> I think that’s acceptable 22:35:52 <Wolf01> s/removed/downgraded 22:36:09 <andythenorth> confusing, but acceptable 22:36:18 <Wolf01> It's the same as now 22:36:25 <Wolf01> Just a bit more automatic 22:36:27 <andythenorth> except backwards :) 22:36:49 <andythenorth> it would try too hard to not have broken routes, opposite of current situation 22:37:04 <andythenorth> a catenary tool would assume unified catenary? 22:37:10 <Wolf01> No 22:37:33 <andythenorth> hmm 22:37:41 <Wolf01> A catenary tool would assume that the grf knows and tell the game how to upgrade a label 22:37:45 <andythenorth> I don’t hate it, I just think it’s more complexity 22:38:12 <Wolf01> I mean, you have RAIL, use catenary tool over it and you'll get ELRL, fine, thanks, simple 22:38:39 <andythenorth> but without unifying catenary, we’re back at where we started :) 22:38:47 <Wolf01> You have XYRL, you use catenary over it... which other label becomes? 22:39:12 <andythenorth> we’re stuck with player unable to detect why vehicles aren’t routing 22:39:21 <andythenorth> and only a few 8bpp pixels to show it 22:39:21 <Wolf01> Or, you unify the catenary... 22:39:41 <Wolf01> Which means you can't use the catenary to fake subways 22:39:52 <Wolf01> Which is a BAD use case anyway 22:39:56 <andythenorth> so many kittens died :P 22:40:04 <andythenorth> fuck all these proposed catenary hacks, seriously 22:40:13 <andythenorth> ‘but NRT must allow boatloads of shit’ 22:40:19 <andythenorth> is making it not get shipped 22:40:41 *** Tirili has quit IRC 22:42:31 <andythenorth> catenary is not a good way to do ropeways, ski-lifts, subways, or eye candy 22:43:00 <andythenorth> if we want stuff like this https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/aerial-ropeway-westport-new-zealand-circa-buckets-carry-coal-down-to-railway-terminal-stockton-coal-mine-west-42428732.jpg 22:43:09 <andythenorth> then we should have a new transport type for it 22:43:09 <Wolf01> No, it's not, but until we'll provide authors a good way, they will hack things into it the wrong way 22:43:14 <andythenorth> and subways are always stupid 22:43:30 <andythenorth> hax is hax 22:43:37 <andythenorth> spec doesn’t need to be written around the hax 22:43:47 <andythenorth> then they’re not hax, they’re spec :P 22:44:25 * andythenorth votes unified catenary tool and unified appearance 22:44:49 <andythenorth> if it was drawn via a switch chain, author could swap sprites depending on types on the tile 22:45:04 <andythenorth> so actually multiple types could be drawn, just have to be combined in one sprite 22:45:31 <Wolf01> Yes 22:46:03 <Wolf01> Up to 14*14 combinations 22:46:56 <Wolf01> Maybe even 15x15 if you override ROAD and RAIL 22:46:59 <andythenorth> have fun drawing that :) 22:47:06 <Wolf01> Not my problem 22:47:06 <andythenorth> the work might put them off eh? 22:47:17 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:47:50 <Wolf01> Server got annoyed? 22:52:13 *** gelignite has quit IRC 23:25:10 *** FLHerne has quit IRC