Log for #openttd on 12th August 2017:
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03:15:54  <NCommander> evening world
03:16:51  <ST2> morning :)
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07:04:16  <andythenorth> o/
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07:56:54  <peter1138> moo
07:56:59  <andythenorth> baa
07:57:30  <andythenorth> so many “deprecated call to get_nml_expression_for_unit_cargo_loaded_percent()”
07:57:33  * andythenorth should fix all this
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08:02:08  <V453000> I think I should rework all trees
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08:13:43  <andythenorth> V453000: rework everything
08:13:52  <andythenorth> but just one thing at once :P
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08:20:20  <Alberth> o/
08:28:13  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
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09:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so... how do i quickly (and temporarily) create 1000 abandoned houses for building a fusion reactor?
09:36:41  <Alberth> add road, build 1000 houses, delete road ?
09:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the houses disappear then, not get empty
09:38:56  <Alberth> disconnect the road from other parts of the city?
09:40:07  <Alberth> disconnect power?
09:40:15  <Alberth> disconnect water?
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09:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think cutting the water worked
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10:02:21  <Alberth> python json module makes wild assumptions on the size of the data file:    "return loads(, ... "
10:02:28  <Alberth> my data file is 900MB :p
10:02:41  <LordAro> :D
10:02:54  <LordAro> just download more ram
10:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think that library was designed with your use case in mind :p
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10:05:28  <LordAro> some googling suggests ijson or json-streamer
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10:07:35  <Alberth> oh, it fits, just takes 5 minutes to load :p
10:07:44  <LordAro> ^^
10:09:16  <Alberth> :)
10:10:07  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it did work... just i didn't do enough, only 750 buildings :/
10:11:12  <Alberth> not sure how a fusion reactor is connected to abadoned houses
10:11:40  <Alberth> seems a bit strange
10:13:59  <Alberth> hmm, maybe they use RE for parsing, which can't handle matching from a stream
10:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> fusion reactor needs the observatory
10:17:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and the observatory needs 1000 abandoned houses
10:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> for some reason
10:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they don't want light pollution :p
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10:29:25  <Wolf01> o/
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10:35:03  <Wolf01> All hail buffer chests!
10:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> bwäääh... 975 abandoned buildings :/
10:39:30  <Alkel_U3> I suppose there isn't an option to auto-raze them all at once :-)
10:40:39  <Wolf01> You are making me willing to play cities xl
10:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you DON'T want to erase them
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10:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, there is a mod that will auto-destroy abandoned buildings, but i don't think it's worth it. you don't usually get a lot of them
10:45:16  <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: apparently you sent wind yesterday, too. I just oveeheard news on the radio that trees were falling yesterday and lightning took out safety equipment on some railway connections
10:45:40  <Wolf01> Eh
10:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds less apocalyptic than the news i read from northern italy the last few days
10:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause> 4 of 5 weeks of sustaining 1000 abandoned buildings
10:52:46  <Wolf01> We also lost about 80% of crops in my area, but it might be an exaggeration and most of then will be able to recover for harvest
10:52:53  <Wolf01> *them
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10:57:52  <Wolf01> "please fix this", I think this makes the game unplayable
10:58:58  <LordAro> literally unplayable
10:59:04  <LordAro> probably a valid bug though
10:59:21  <eekee1> lol
10:59:23  <Wolf01> Yes, but at least it doesn't break things :P
10:59:50  <Wolf01> Maybe some invalidate window could fix it
11:01:22  <Wolf01> meh...
11:02:03  <Wolf01> I found the same problem by mixing a rail set and an industry set with same cargoes and different names
11:02:17  <Alberth> o/
11:02:44  <Wolf01> Maybe that's the reason for the other bug reported from this guy with the missing string for cargo
11:03:41  <LordAro> i think that's because different tiles of the industry accept different cargoes
11:03:52  <LordAro> confusing, but intentional(?)
11:04:21  <Wolf01> Nono, they are the same cargoes but with different names (at least that's what happened to me
11:04:30  <Wolf01> Lunch, back in ha while
11:04:43  <Wolf01> s//h
11:05:35  <LordAro> oh, right
11:05:39  <LordAro> weird
11:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> now, how long until people move back into this neighbourhood
11:11:56  <Wolf01> Add an immigrants mod
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12:00:26  <Wolf01> kek
12:03:13  <LordAro> lack of space?
12:03:20  <Wolf01> Could be
12:04:14  <Wolf01> I don't know any other problem on windows which might cause this, unless OTTD locks files while downloading and fails to unlock them at the right time
12:05:09  <LordAro> i'd imagine there *could* be a bug somewhere in the downloader if you download a large amount all at once, but not one that would cause a "File not writable" error
12:06:39  <Alberth> 32bit, and a too huge file :p
12:06:48  <Alberth> we should cap at 256MB :p
12:06:53  <LordAro> haha
12:06:57  <Wolf01> Ahaha
12:08:07  <Alberth> or maybe more than 10 selections or so
12:10:02  <Wolf01> <- I don't think that a weird grey line is painted over, but the sprite is cut away because too big to fit the widget
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12:12:04  <Wolf01> Quak
12:12:48  <Alberth> o/
12:13:18  <Wolf01> <- we should fix this once and for all stuff. NRT requires it too
12:13:37  <peter1138> Wolf01, but it's over the sprite
12:14:01  <peter1138> should only be 1 pixel high, not 2
12:14:19  <peter1138> and is also obiwan on the first pixel too
12:15:48  <Wolf01> Hmmm right
12:17:04  <Wolf01> It seem that the padding is drawn after content
12:18:07  <Alberth> do you read that from the code?
12:18:17  <Wolf01> Also the padding is wrong, since those are 2 merged lines, it should be 1,1,0,1 on first line and 0,1,1,1 on the second (top, right, bottom, left)
12:18:20  <Alberth> padding is just administrative distance afaik
12:18:42  <Alberth> if you're talking widget padding, that is
12:18:57  <Wolf01> I didn't read the code, but when I tried to use the padding for the train lenght it fucked up things
12:21:11  <Wolf01> Best I got was a transparent area as padding :P
12:22:39  <Alberth> see-through window :p
12:23:12  <Alberth> it does need a background indeed
12:23:43  <Alberth> eg the settings windows use padded widgets on top of the grey background widget (forgot its name)
12:24:00  <Alberth> otherwise indeed you should not leave holes between widgets
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12:24:40  <Alberth> we could enhance the dirty rectangle code to render the holes too :p
12:24:42  <Wolf01> To me it seem it's acting as a margin instead of a padding
12:25:32  <Alberth> probably another name for it
12:25:46  <Wolf01> They are 2 different things
12:26:09  <Alberth> there is also padding between the content of a widget, and its edges, don't remember what name that has
12:26:20  <Wolf01> [<-padding->[content]<-padding->] vs [<-padding->content<-padding->]
12:26:42  <Wolf01> The first one is what OTTD wants
12:26:43  <Alberth> yep, different
12:26:54  <Alberth> no, we want both
12:27:09  <Alberth> look at game options window
12:27:15  <Alberth> lots of gaps between widgets
12:27:43  <Alberth> newgrf window too
12:28:17  <Wolf01> Yes, but it should be <-margin->[content]<-margin-> or [<-padding->content<-padding->], not a mix of the 2
12:28:38  <Alberth> we have both
12:29:09  <Wolf01> Then the box function fails to render the padding correctly
12:29:19  <Alberth> don't remember their names, but sure, that could be weirdly named
12:29:52  <Alberth> the thing that you call margin doesn't render anything for the margin
12:30:06  <Alberth> you can only do that on top of a background
12:30:52  <Alberth> also widget sizes that you get may be different than what you asked for, you have to use provided sizes
12:31:14  <Wolf01> Because if I do PANEL, PADDING(1,1,1,1), PANEL I get [<-padding->[content]<-padding->] with transparent padding, which acts exactly like [<-margin->[content]<-margin->] applied to PANEL, PANEL, MARGIN(1,1,1,1)
12:31:36  <Wolf01> And that is wrong
12:32:06  <Wolf01> Padding background should always be rendered, if you don't want it, use margin
12:35:08  <Wolf01> WAT?!
12:36:28  <Alberth> <sigh/>
12:45:21  <LordAro> lol.
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13:03:35  <Wolf01> How do you activate dev mode?
13:04:37  <peter1138> well
13:04:47  <peter1138> first become a dev
13:04:53  <Wolf01> Oh, ok, it's the newgrf developer tools, which is used for everything...
13:13:04  <V453000> gg
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13:13:55  <Wolf01> Alberth: I need a kickstart on creating new windows
13:15:48  <Wolf01> I made a windowdesc, extended the window class, put a new entry in the help dropdown menu, it executes the new MyWindow() but nothing shows up
13:24:55  <Alberth> busy right now, grab a small window like bridges selection or so, and strip it?
13:25:08  <Wolf01> I've done that with the about window
13:25:08  <Alberth> otherwise, I can have a look later
13:25:14  <Wolf01> No clue
13:26:03  <Alberth> you construct the window widgets in the constructor?
13:26:11  <Alberth> hmm, I guess you do
13:26:44  <Wolf01> Uhm, maybe I dtripped too much
13:26:49  <Wolf01> *stripped
13:27:03  <Alberth> not sure how good the "about" window is, some are a bit fuzzy/weird due to special behavior
13:27:56  <Alberth> I'd think it automagically calls OnPaint to draw the widgets from the base class, so that should work
13:29:44  <Wolf01> Ok, InitNested at least triggered an error
13:35:12  <Alberth>  gaps in the widget numbering?
13:35:21  <Alberth> or overlapping numbers
13:36:33  <Wolf01> I added a new window class, a "new" window number, new strings, and I get an error about newgrf string
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13:41:28  <Wolf01> Take your time, I can wait :P
13:47:58  <Alberth> do you have a patch?
13:48:07  <Wolf01> Yes, wait
13:48:20  <Alberth> I'll clone the repo instead :p
13:50:49  <Wolf01>
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13:51:17  <stefino> hello guys..anyone who can program in nfo ?
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13:54:27  <stefino> I need to program stationtile what has only backgroud. How can I do it? In tutorial on forum he has background and foreground. I'm talking about this line "7 * 62    00 04 02 01 00 08 "TUT0" 09 02 F4 03 00 00 00 00 00 10 05 03 2D 84 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 7A 2E 84 00 00 80 F3 03 00  00 00 00 00 05 10 03 2F 84 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 7A 30 84 00 00 80"
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13:57:19  <stefino> he has two tiles with background and foreground. and the second queastion. how nfo know what sprite is for background and what is for foreground? thx
14:05:41  <Alberth> Wolf01: do you want a parameterized titlebar?
14:06:13  <Wolf01> Isn't that the common one?
14:06:37  <Alberth> most titlebars have a fixed string :)
14:07:05  <Wolf01> I put WID_UT_CAPTION
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14:09:12  <Alberth> that's the widget number, STR_WHITE_STRING is the text, which says "{white}{string}"
14:09:26  <Alberth> ie you must provide a string to paint the title bar
14:09:42  <Alberth> no worries, I added your new string, let's see if that works
14:09:50  <Wolf01> Oh yes
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14:11:57  <Wolf01> So it was that one... weird error
14:12:10  <Alberth>
14:12:47  <Alberth>   one red window :)
14:13:50  <Alberth> making a new string STR_UI_TEST_TITLE : {WHITE}UI Test     is simpler here
14:15:46  <Alberth> stack dump indicated it was computing size of a widget and something  ...GetStringWithArgs...
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14:16:49  <Alberth> that's kick enough?
14:20:31  <LordAro> Alberth: shouldn't it error hen not providing a string, rather than just doing nothing?
14:20:57  <LordAro> when*
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14:21:29  <LordAro> stefino: probably better to ask on the forums, more permanence there
14:23:05  <stefino> ok ok
14:24:26  <Wolf01> Alberth: where is the grey panel?
14:24:39  <Wolf01> And the blue panel too?
14:24:43  <Wolf01> *red
14:24:57  <Wolf01> Blue is from another test :P
14:27:37  <Alberth> LordAro: euhm, it crashed, how's that nothing? :p
14:28:55  <Alberth> Wolf01: you have a panel with one widget on top of it, that top widget is expanded to fit the room that needs to be filled
14:29:05  <Alberth> ie your panel is behind the widget
14:30:07  <Alberth> code tries not to have gaps in the window (ie between the widgets) :)
14:31:25  <Wolf01> Ok, I think I understood how it works now, SetPadding adds a margin (html speaking)
14:31:28  <LordAro> Alberth: Wolf01 described nothing happening
14:31:44  <Wolf01> LordAro: yes, before calling InitNested()
14:31:51  <Wolf01> Then it crashed
14:32:03  <LordAro> ah right
14:32:04  <LordAro> heh
14:32:04  <Alberth> Wolf01: I was that thinking too, while I owondered about the padding
14:32:14  <V453000> hm, my own system is starting to defeat me
14:32:17  <V453000> it's just too complicated
14:32:21  <Alberth> ha :)
14:32:23  <V453000> track postproduction pipeline that is
14:32:26  <Wolf01> Automate it more
14:32:36  <V453000> it's outworldly levels of insane
14:32:47  <V453000> there's so many things doing stuff to other things
14:32:54  <Alberth> reduce  magic special cases, usually
14:33:08  <Wolf01> Ha, welcome to software development
14:33:22  <V453000> the thing is that everything is like a magic case
14:33:27  <V453000> rail tunnels especially
14:33:30  <V453000> terrain is a slope but not
14:33:35  <V453000> etc
14:33:50  <Alberth> you may be over-generalizing, trying to cover too much
14:34:02  <V453000> I think the whole approach is upside down
14:34:04  <Alberth> so adding special handling becomes kludgy
14:34:36  <Alberth> ah yes, started at the wrong end, that happens too :)
14:34:53  <V453000> the original idea was to have strips of "rail stuff" so that I can for example easily copy things between rail, monorail, maglev, and their snow/desert editions
14:35:03  <V453000> but doing stuff to individual things is absolute mayhem
14:35:23  <V453000> the fact that I can't even zoom beyond 100% isn't helping either
14:35:54  <V453000> (the spritesheet is 16k, after effects can only use 30 000 width of a composition, so I guess the zoom is disabled for that reason)
14:35:55  <V453000> XD
14:36:05  <V453000> if I had each frame handled separately I could do this
14:36:07  <V453000> hm FUCK
14:36:13  <V453000> another thing I need to rework? :D
14:36:21  <V453000> this is probably the absolute biggest thing of all BRIX
14:37:02  <Alberth> aligning your view with reality of the problem is always the biggest problem
14:37:11  <V453000> oh yean and it combines with ground tiles in 1094289 different ways
14:37:16  <V453000> yeah*
14:37:34  <V453000> well I did rework this at  least once in the past when I was doing rawr :D
14:37:38  <Alberth> enough to have lots of fun :p
14:38:26  <Alberth> working hard to automate things so you can be lazy never really reached the lazy part for me either
14:38:30  <V453000> the thing is I am not sure if it is a good idea to have 12x50 individual sprites to handle
14:38:39  <V453000> but apparently it might be necessary
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14:38:57  <Alberth> can't you do something in-between?
14:39:06  <V453000> yeah somewhat
14:39:15  <V453000> I have some ideas from past exprience that can help
14:39:17  <Alberth> ie everything in one system, and each individual are the extremes
14:39:48  <Alberth> maybe make a library that does small parts, which you can apply when needed or so
14:40:01  <V453000> that's pretty much what I have in mind
14:40:08  <V453000> sequences of edits which can be applied to anything
14:40:25  <V453000> but separated in time so I can still work in a large XY window
14:40:26  <Alberth> don't be afraid to recompute things, so you can make modular steps
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14:40:58  <Alberth> lots of independent steps is easier to work with than passing data through each step
14:41:23  <Alberth> might take some additional cpu time, but who cares, there is plenty of that
14:41:41  <V453000> it's not about cpu
14:41:48  <V453000> it's about staying reasonably sane
14:42:26  <Alberth> yep, one way is to raise abstraction level, make each step smarter so it knows what to do by itself
14:42:51  <Alberth> so you can think in separate steps
14:43:20  <Alberth> but maybe it doesn't apply
14:43:50  <andythenorth> V453000: are you making pipelines? o_O
14:44:14  <V453000> well at this point I am looking at a thoroughly rusty and full of shit sewer :D
14:44:20  <Alberth> more like pipes all over the place :p
14:45:32  * andythenorth had idea of clean pipelines for pixa
14:45:34  <andythenorth> it worked
14:45:41  <andythenorth> but
14:45:50  <andythenorth> one of the steps is huge
14:46:06  <andythenorth> it’s basically tiny-step > huge huge step > tiny step :P
14:46:13  <Wolf01> So Alberth, how should I add an html padding to show the red panel too?
14:47:41  <LordAro> > html
14:47:42  <Wolf01> SetPIP?
14:47:47  <LordAro> > ottd windows
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14:48:23  <Alberth> Wolf01: why would you want a gap in the window?
14:48:36  <Wolf01> I don't want a gap in the window
14:48:45  <Alberth> oh, the caption thingie
14:48:50  <Wolf01> I want a space from the border of the container
14:49:10  <V453000> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDD
14:49:17  <V453000> I managed to view the whole scheme of the thing
14:49:17  <Alberth> SetPadding iirc
14:49:18  <Wolf01> PIP seem to work
14:49:20  <V453000> got to screenshot that shit
14:49:32  <Wolf01> Padding puts a transparent margin
14:49:40  <Wolf01> PIP puts a padding
14:49:47  <Alberth> PIP is for sequences of widgets
14:50:04  <Alberth> pip is translated to padding :p
14:52:23  * andythenorth approves of FS ticket closing
14:53:46  <eekee> ugh cargodist! i like the idea, but i always end up with trams swarming like maggots and connections overloaded anyway
14:53:55  <andythenorth> cargodist isn’t
14:54:02  <eekee> cargodest :)
14:54:06  <andythenorth> just use A-B networks
14:54:11  <eekee> i do
14:54:15  <eekee> lol
14:54:18  <andythenorth> don’t make A-B-C-D-E-F networks, with all connected
14:54:42  <andythenorth> cdist is (A) a hard technical achievement (b) mostly just automated transfers
14:54:55  <eekee> right
14:55:04  <andythenorth> if you connect all your pax networks, your game will start to suck
14:55:12  <eekee> right
14:55:43  <Alberth> Wolf01:
14:56:11  <eekee> i've done pretty well in one or two games, but one of them has flat land, lots of ocean, and roads on 3x3 grid so it's easy to put in metro & intercity
14:56:34  <eekee> that game is also pax-only
14:57:55  <Alberth> Wolf01:  pip means pre-intermediate-post, and is used in a horizontal or vertical container (and a panel is a vertical container). It gives you spacing between widgets without having to add padding everywhere
14:58:10  * andythenorth cannot comment on this one :)
14:58:15  <andythenorth> out of my knowledge
14:59:49  <eekee> imo cdist would benefit from reducing the production of well-served buildings
14:59:53  <Wolf01> Alberth: yeah, I noticed it, but how did you get that padding?
15:00:55  <andythenorth> eekee: that’s not quite the solution it seems
15:01:00  <andythenorth> it might clear the stations a bit
15:01:14  <andythenorth> but it’s counter-intuitive
15:01:21  <andythenorth> adding more service leads to fewer pax
15:01:25  <Alberth> Wolf01: I typed the numbers :p
15:01:51  <Wolf01> I get this
15:01:56  <andythenorth> the solution is point-point networks, in my experience
15:02:28  <Alberth> Wolf01: you removed the background panel, why did you do that?
15:02:38  <Wolf01> It's there
15:02:50  <eekee> andythenorth: if more service led to fewer pax, i wouldn't be complaining :)
15:03:01  <Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_PANEL, COLOUR_RED), SetPadding(10, 20, 30, 40),
15:03:01  <Wolf01> 		NWidget(WWT_CAPTION, COLOUR_GREEN),
15:03:01  <Wolf01> 	EndContainer(),
15:03:34  <Alberth> Padding applies to the widget before it
15:04:01  <Wolf01> Ok, I must think about it as a margin
15:04:06  <Alberth> ie you made the background widget smaller, and the caption widget then expands on it
15:04:11  <Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_PANEL, COLOUR_RED),
15:04:12  <Wolf01> 		NWidget(WWT_CAPTION, COLOUR_GREEN), SetPadding(10, 20, 30, 40),
15:04:12  <Wolf01> 	EndContainer(),
15:04:18  <Alberth> yep
15:04:19  <Wolf01> This should work as I want
15:04:37  <Alberth> likely you don't want 10, 20, 30, 40, but yes :p
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15:05:40  <V453000> I don't even think this is everything
15:06:37  <andythenorth> V453000: that is art
15:06:57  <V453000> no that's fucking mayhem
15:07:13  <V453000> :D
15:07:17  <andythenorth> do we need 65535 stations per grf?
15:07:24  <andythenorth> do we need stuff just because we can?
15:07:46  <eekee> andythenorth: in the games i can't complain about, i use nuts with its 'local' trains of huge capacity and brief loading time. i could use a comparable tram
15:08:04  <andythenorth> which tram set do you use?
15:08:11  <eekee> egrvts
15:08:37  <Alberth> I know garyg has lots of full object grfs, but stations?
15:08:51  <andythenorth> I can’t reject it because I’m not a dev :P
15:08:52  <andythenorth> or something
15:09:00  <andythenorth> but 65535 is total nonsense
15:09:09  <andythenorth> are we hitting a 255 limit or something?
15:09:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: i made a survey, there are stations grfs which have like 250 already
15:09:57  <andythenorth> is the range 255, then 65535?
15:10:24  <frosch123> anyway, i would like to remove several 255 limits at a time
15:10:32  <frosch123> instead of one-by-one
15:10:41  <andythenorth> so that FS patch is valid?
15:10:54  <Alberth> the issue is valid :)
15:10:57  <frosch123> i think so
15:11:28  <frosch123> but the included patch is not necessarily
15:12:33  <Wolf01> Ok, it seem that I finally understood how to use the "padding"
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15:12:50  <andythenorth> is it like html margin and padding?
15:12:52  <Wolf01> No
15:12:58  <Wolf01> It's the opposite
15:13:03  <andythenorth> ha
15:13:08  <Wolf01> OTTD padding = html margin
15:13:27  <stefino> one quick question - what grfcodec means if it write Insufficient meta-data while reading sprite 3?
15:13:46  <stefino> what is insufficient?
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15:14:51  <andythenorth> stuck trains are part of the game no?
15:15:12  <andythenorth> imho, part of the playing experience is occasionally finding your network totally log-jammed
15:17:19  <Alberth> closed
15:17:53  <Alberth> :)   I am getting to o good, don't get that fun things much any more
15:18:00  <andythenorth> this one is awesome :)
15:18:03  <andythenorth> can we commit it?
15:19:01  <Alberth> bit of a waste to spend a commit on it
15:20:04  <Alberth> usually these things get changed when the code near it gets changed, or when there are "enough" of them
15:22:25  <andythenorth> this: why?
15:22:28  <Wolf01> Could I rename all the widget functions because of reasons?
15:22:31  <andythenorth> local authorities are part of the game
15:22:50  <andythenorth> is it for testing newgrfs?
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15:24:35  <Wolf01> I don't think SetPadding is used outside of widgets, and it mixes up with SetBits, SetDParam...
15:24:57  <Alberth> stefino:  also lines 185 and 207, looks like the header cannot be parsed
15:25:52  * andythenorth wishes there were no conditional orders :P
15:26:00  <andythenorth> 25% of FS is more conditional order bollocks
15:26:04  <andythenorth> OrderScript?
15:26:27  <andythenorth> what problem are these people solving?  My trains do everything I want, and I make loads and loads of money :P
15:27:42  <Alberth> Wolf01: "because of reasons" doesn't sound very convincing. Also, it's just in the widget description, make a temporary hack #define SetMargin SetPadding if you must, and remove it just before submitting, but it's simpler to design the window once and ignore it, imho
15:28:29  <Alberth> andythenorth: won't work, stuff does much more with orders than people think
15:28:52  <Alberth> eg cargodest looks for stations that will be visited, etc
15:28:54  <andythenorth> can I just reject all conditional order feature requests?
15:29:49  <Alberth> anything with random and time-dependent behavior is pretty much no go, as orders should be deterministic
15:30:19  <Alberth> different parts look at orders, and it only works if all parts get the same idea of what will happen
15:31:43  <andythenorth> what does this mean?
15:32:28  <Alberth> sounds asif he want a distance between airports in the order window (?)
15:32:55  <_dp_> andythenorth, not everyone likes to deal with stupid authorities :p
15:33:07  <_dp_> isn't there already distance between stations?
15:33:15  <andythenorth> why is a distance between airports needed?
15:33:18  <eekee> agreed orders should be deterministic!
15:33:20  <andythenorth> just route planes
15:33:23  <_dp_> ah, mb it's from patchpack
15:33:24  <andythenorth> they work fine
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15:34:13  <Alberth> perhaps when you change orders, although no idea how that's useful
15:36:15  <Wolf01> Alberth: I mean to rename all the functions to NWSetPadding, NWSetFill etc, it should be easier to find them also with autosuggest
15:39:12  <andythenorth> eh, isn’t this the intended behaviour of ctrl-click?
15:39:25  <andythenorth> ctrl-click shares orders, even if vehicle already has orders
15:39:45  <eekee> i only use conditional orders to work around servicing wierdness. you can't set servicing interval for a whole order group or vehicle class at once (painful), and "go to nearest depot" does not usefully share the load between two depots
15:40:01  <eekee> in both cases i'd rather there were another way
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15:46:04  <Alberth> andy, he wants some warning or so before overwriting orders, I use that feature a lot, having to click OK each time doesn't seem useful
15:46:30  <Alberth> with the exception that if you ctrl-click a station tile which happens to have a train
15:46:47  <Alberth> then it shares the train orders instead of visiting that station
15:47:06  <Alberth> I could see use of a disambiguating question there
15:48:22  <andythenorth> modal messages rarely solve much :P
15:48:43  <Alberth> it gets very complicated very quickly
15:48:48  <andythenorth> I requested closure ;)
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15:52:33  <Alberth> @calc (5*60+43)*100/75/60
15:52:33  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 7.62222222222
15:55:33  <eekee> hahaha! pages of trams with capacity over 200 passengers, while i've been using egrvts which has *none*!
15:57:19  <eekee> re. overwriting orders: i hate confirmation popups, i find them kinda painful, and there's never really any need to ctrl-click unless you want to share orders
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16:02:21  <Alberth> add full-load goto order also uses ctrl-click
16:03:08  <andythenorth> it’s pretty rare to accidentally click a vehicle when aiming for a station
16:03:12  <andythenorth> but I have done it more than once
16:03:19  <andythenorth> is it worth fixing?
16:09:47  <Alberth> no idea how, without making it very complicated
16:11:07  * andythenorth thinks not
16:11:58  <Alberth> if you add better multi-cargo support, "full load" becomes useless all by itself
16:12:25  <Alberth> except for trains carrying 1 cargo only
16:13:03  <andythenorth> I am not convinced it adds anything
16:13:25  <Alberth> consist-based orders would make sharing mostly obsolete
16:13:47  <Alberth> I am also not convinced it's useful
16:13:58  * andythenorth offers a false dichotomy
16:14:27  <andythenorth> nah actually
16:15:03  <Alberth> at least you add complicated words :p
16:15:52  <andythenorth> I was trying to compare benefits of templated consists (big advance)
16:15:57  <eekee> what i meant is you don't *need* to ctrl-click to set orders ever, unless you want to share. the alternative is just 2 clicks
16:16:05  <andythenorth> against all these things that add complexity to existing stuff
16:16:29  <andythenorth> most of these FS multiply complexity to meet use case of limited handful of players
16:16:42  <andythenorth> whereas templated consists might benefit everyone
16:16:44  <eekee> often the case
16:17:19  <Wolf01> Consist based could be faked by using the trains list as a depot and using the groups to automatically share the orders and clone the vehicles
16:18:27  <eekee> i've not found groups useful yet, mostly because i didn't want to add trains individually when i already have so many in order groups :)
16:19:02  <Alberth> I consider them useless too
16:19:05  <frosch123> you can mass-add vehicles which share orders
16:19:11  <andythenorth> I use groups all the time
16:19:14  <andythenorth> for auto-replace
16:19:14  <frosch123> otherwise their only purpose is autoreplace
16:19:17  <andythenorth> they are very limited
16:19:29  <andythenorth> but they perform that function very well
16:19:38  <Alberth> I just autoreplace the engine globally
16:19:53  <frosch123> you do not need every engine in a group
16:20:11  <frosch123> instead you can setup add-hoc groups when you want to autoreplace a subset
16:20:16  <andythenorth> that’s what I do
16:20:31  <Alberth> why would you want to replace a subset only?
16:20:38  <Wolf01> I use groups to check the average profit of the vehicles which are in the group
16:20:53  <Alberth> if only groupd would provide that info :p
16:21:02  <frosch123> Alberth: when the game starts with 2 viable engines, and later you have 3 options
16:21:10  <Alberth> although someone may have add that feature
16:21:30  <frosch123> or if the cargo turned out heavier than guessed first
16:21:37  <frosch123> so one route needs a different engines
16:21:43  <Alberth> moar steam engines!
16:21:53  <Alberth> :)
16:21:54  <andythenorth> how many companies should there be?
16:22:00  <Alberth> 1 ?
16:22:01  <andythenorth> oops
16:22:08  <andythenorth> is 16 a hard limit?
16:22:13  <eekee> 1! :D
16:22:19  * andythenorth has ‘close ticket’ prepped and ready
16:22:21  <Wolf01> Alberth:
16:24:29  <Alberth> andy, bottom comment of planet person says it all, I think
16:25:43  <Alberth> Wolf01: group window?
16:25:49  <Wolf01> Yes
16:26:03  <Alberth> ok, so some stuff got added :)
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16:47:37  * andythenorth closed that ticket
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16:52:34  <Wolf01> <- buy a better pc?
16:54:02  <LordAro> you could probably claim it's because basically all the graphics rendering is done by the cpu, rather than the gpu
16:54:33  <LordAro> offloading more of that would probably improve things, but it would be hard
16:58:12  <Wolf01> I had to rewrite my game to use directx in order to gain better performances, with CPU only I got 20fps
16:58:39  <andythenorth> 4K ? :P
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17:03:48  <Wolf01> :D
17:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: does your camera movement work now?
17:07:15  <Wolf01> Nah, I didn't touch it since yesterday
17:07:22  <Wolf01> Maybe later I'll try again
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17:11:36  <eekee> added higher-capacity trams with fast loading, and now my cargodist routes are fine :)
17:15:40  <andythenorth> this is an arch example of ‘jumped the shark’
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17:19:00  <eekee> lol yeah
17:19:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i agree with both of the ideas (separately)
17:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> autosave-while-paused
17:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and ingame clock (if playing fullscreen)
17:19:40  <Eddi|zuHause> are both extremely useful things
17:19:45  <andythenorth> I have closed in-game clock
17:19:47  <andythenorth> it’s nonsense
17:20:03  <eekee> wall clocks exist
17:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> every game should have an ingame clock
17:21:03  <eekee> second life's ingame clock didn't do me any good ^.^
17:23:56  <andythenorth> every browser should have an email client :P
17:24:08  <LordAro> every emacs should have a text editor
17:31:56  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> every game should have an ingame clock <- I solved this with a Logitech G510
17:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: coffeemacs?
17:34:03  <Wolf01> I even thought to add a patch to support it's display on OTTD to show some info, like a subsidy browser, last warnings
17:35:24  <Wolf01> BTW, ice cream, BBL
17:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i play openttd in windowed mode, so i have the taskbar with clock
17:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but other games...
17:44:13  <andythenorth> this?
17:46:30  <Alberth> he has somewhat of a point, not sure it should be fixed though
17:47:05  <Alberth> you can add an option 'send to depot for selling' or so
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17:47:29  <Alberth> or only change engine when leaving the depot perhaps
17:48:24  <andythenorth> consist templates :P
17:48:44  <andythenorth> we could (1) add yet another ‘send all in order group’ command (to sell them)
17:48:59  <glx> looks like andythenorth is trying to clean FS :)
17:49:03  <andythenorth> (2) have template consists where all in current group are assigned an empty template
17:49:15  <andythenorth> glx: I’m seeing how far I can go before someone yells at me :)
17:49:26  <andythenorth> I got rid of ~40 tickets last week
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18:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause> might be too narrow of a use case
18:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe a human wants to play the game rondje-style
18:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> you set up a train with "go to A" "go to B" "sell at depot", and then you just clone that train over and over
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18:11:30  <Alberth> all this useless double track building :p
18:12:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the chinese did that for a while with shipping containers
18:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> was way cheaper to build new containers in china than ship them back from europe
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18:19:30  <__ln___>
18:19:39  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did they also build new ships?
18:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't put it past them :p
18:25:27  <andythenorth> this would mean keeping the industries in the map?
18:26:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's called message historyx
18:26:39  * andythenorth notes that
18:27:27  <frosch123> if anyone would care, someone would have added filters to the message history window :)
18:27:37  <andythenorth> probably the list should have also popup message notifying that the industry has been addded to the closed list
18:27:41  <andythenorth> in case the player missed it
18:27:50  <andythenorth> Because “quite often, the industry is closed without noticing by the player."
18:27:56  <andythenorth> so that probably needs a message
18:28:02  <andythenorth> in case you missed the message
18:28:24  <andythenorth> and a log saying there was a message about the message
18:28:37  <andythenorth> so you can check if you missed any messages about messages about messages about closure
18:28:42  <andythenorth> how do some of these people human?
18:28:44  <frosch123> you can likely write a gamescript which reminds you about missed messages
18:29:05  <andythenorth> in my day job I get actual feature requests about actual shit things we’ve sold to people :P
18:29:12  <andythenorth> not some of this crap :D
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18:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Because “quite often, the industry is closed without noticing by the player." <-- that's usually because of ticker messages, which stupidly prevent real messages from popping up
18:52:10  <andythenorth> is that a bug? o_O
18:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, a misfeature of the original game
18:55:32  <andythenorth> quite neat this one
18:55:36  <andythenorth> 2006 eh?
18:55:39  * andythenorth likes it
19:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, the problem is that ticker messages take a while to scroll through, so when you have lots of them, some messages time out, which could have been real messages
19:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> (btw, did anyone ever look up whether the ticker sound is a real message, and what it says?)
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19:27:29  <Wolf01> Back
19:32:02  <peter1138> tons of pm request spam ;(
19:33:56  <andythenorth> blame andythenorth
19:48:03  <peter1138> yes
19:52:12  <andythenorth> I could just close more, avoiding some of the bureaucracy
19:58:52  <Wolf01> heh
20:03:34  <andythenorth> how would random orders work in multiplayer?
20:03:59  <andythenorth> would it be handled in game state somehow? o_O
20:04:06  <Wolf01> Seed
20:11:12  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so currently there is _no_ Lego Technic I want to buy :)
20:11:15  <andythenorth> first time in years
20:12:02  <Wolf01> I want to buy the current ones anyway... no money
20:12:19  <andythenorth> Fire Truck...nah
20:12:35  <andythenorth> purple thing…maybe, but it’s really big and takers up a lot of space
20:12:52  <andythenorth> blue Tow truck - no way, seriously over-priced
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20:30:01  <Wolf01> V453000, you know where is this?
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20:30:38  <V453000> I haven't been there but yes
20:31:39  <Wolf01> Well.. where?
20:32:37  <andythenorth> such bed
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20:43:12  <V453000> it's somewhere in Prague :)
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20:53:13  <Wolf01> Thank you, I already knew that, that's why I asked you and not andy :D
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21:03:01  <V453000> Thank you for your question.
21:03:02  <V453000> XD
21:07:12  <Wolf01> Could it be in Wenceslas platz?
21:07:35  <Wolf01> A couple of friends want to go there :P
21:07:43  <V453000> yep
21:07:45  <V453000> Vytpona
21:07:47  <V453000> Vytopna
21:07:58  <V453000>!1s0x470b94929ef88247:0x95f8da59d136d8bc!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/prague%2Bpub%2Bwith%2Btrain/@50.0803286,14.4283843,3a,75y,135.14h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211s7JbJQdLOTa4AAAQfCM98eQ*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x470b94929ef88247:0x95f8da59d136d8bc!5sprague+pub+with+train+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2s7JbJ
21:07:59  <Wolf01> Good
21:10:32  <V453000> big file
21:10:43  <V453000> alone the land is boring
21:10:50  <V453000> but with things it's very nice I believe
21:11:36  <frosch123> Wolf01: that's at the main tourist street
21:11:44  <frosch123> no surprise V hasn't been there :)
21:11:49  <frosch123> lots of loud gemans there
21:11:53  <V453000> I go there quite often actually
21:13:05  <frosch123> 2001 i was in a marmor pizza place in that area
21:13:14  <frosch123> everyone in my class thought it was run by the mafia
21:13:28  <Wolf01> I might go there too if my friends decide they really want to
21:13:28  <frosch123> s/marmor/marble/
21:15:14  <Wolf01> V: that's very good, I like the signals too
21:15:58  <V453000> :)
21:16:09  <V453000> and I discovered one big advantage of gray terrain
21:16:14  <V453000> it doesn't collide with 8bpp colours at all
21:16:24  <V453000>
21:16:30  <Wolf01> Also the triangular ones are easy to identify
21:16:45  <frosch123> there are 16 8bpp grey scale colors
21:17:01  <V453000> sure
21:17:01  <frosch123> is it noticeable if the terrain is converted to 8bpp? :p
21:17:08  <V453000> it probably would be
21:17:34  <V453000> I'll try again when I get my conversion script to work properly :P
21:17:44  <frosch123> the trees are new?
21:17:56  <frosch123> i remember icosahedron and stuff
21:18:24  <V453000> they are inconsistent but they aren't new
21:18:47  <V453000> icosahedron or whatever is still there at bottom right
21:20:25  <frosch123> i never notices that ottd puts so many trees of same type next to each other
21:20:54  <frosch123> it's way more visible with the distinct colored trees
21:21:24  <V453000> well the original trees are much larger so they aren't visible as a whole, lets you see individuals less and they are more likely to blend together as a kind of texture mass
21:21:39  <V453000> the colours are also quite various in the original graphics
21:21:56  <V453000> here it's mainly the overall style of the trees being so wildly different
21:22:04  <V453000> I think everything will be more geometric in the next iteration
21:22:12  <V453000> all of the 'natural' ones will go to hell
21:23:13  <frosch123> he, all those geometric shapes appear in nature :p
21:23:33  <V453000> lawyered
21:24:19  <Wolf01> <frosch123> i never notices that ottd puts so many trees of same type next to each other <- I'm the only one which thinks it's not enough? :D
21:30:07  <frosch123> if you want to make it more lively, add a double-helix tree
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21:34:44  <Wolf01> Also cauliflower fractals :P
21:35:09  <Wolf01>
21:36:17  <frosch123> <- also works somewhat in 3d, but there it intersects with itself
21:39:20  <V453000> he
21:39:25  <V453000> well I fuck off :P
21:39:28  <frosch123> <- i did it in povray in my youth
21:39:37  <V453000> too realistic
21:39:40  <V453000> gnight ;P
21:39:42  <frosch123> :p
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21:40:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it looks weird this asymmetric
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21:51:08  <frosch123> hmm, shops are closed tomorrow
21:51:37  <frosch123> buying new dishes/stuff is no option, i guess i will have to clean them
21:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that tends to happen on sundays
21:56:22  <Wolf01> So shops close on sunday in Germany?
21:56:51  <frosch123> you can sell travel supplies in train stations
21:56:53  <frosch123> like potatoes
21:57:00  <frosch123> and washing machines
21:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> train stations or fuel stations can stay open, and cities are allowed to open a few sundays each year (usually in december)
22:00:21  <Wolf01> What idyllic place :)
22:01:25  <Wolf01> Here you can close at sunday and holidays, but like max 5 days
22:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> just a few decades ago shops weren't even allowed open in the evening
22:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause> shops had to close at 17:00, and thursdays 18:30
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22:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> they relaxed that rule to 22:00, and meanwhile you see ocasional exceptions for 24h shops (except sundays)
22:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so they're open like monday 6:00 to saturday 22:00 or so
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23:05:00  <Wolf01> 'night
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