Log for #openttd on 15th August 2017:
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06:06:27  <V453000> Wolf: do these patches combined give some new graphics? :D
06:06:35  <V453000> want ot see them piles
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06:52:39  <V453000> thenorth he is, the evil discarder of FS tasks
06:55:50  <andythenorth> such and many
06:56:24  <andythenorth> this is what an issue tracker should look like
07:10:31  <V453000> XD
07:10:38  <V453000> vubec paralelne?
07:10:40  <V453000> eh
07:10:45  <V453000>
07:10:48  <V453000> I win
07:10:54  <V453000> nobody ever reported a bug report
07:10:58  <V453000> must be perfect grf
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07:46:07  <andythenorth> is perfect grf
07:47:34  <LordAro> andythenorth is perfect grf
07:47:36  <LordAro> got it
07:47:52  <crem> \o
07:52:41  <V453000> gg
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09:17:24  <peter1138> moo
09:18:40  <Alberth> o/
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10:35:02  <Wolf01> Moin
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10:42:39  <Wolf01> Is it?
10:42:51  <Wolf01> Did you ship depot train length
10:42:53  <Wolf01> ?
10:43:35  <andythenorth> not me
10:43:41  <andythenorth> not good enough devloloper
10:44:39  <Wolf01> Ask in tt-f/ottd-dev for help?
10:45:07  <andythenorth> :P
10:45:23  <andythenorth> ach people keep adding tickets
10:45:25  <andythenorth>
10:45:28  <andythenorth> can’t kill them fast enough
10:46:03  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I saved a search for crashes, and have been trying to repro them
10:46:38  <andythenorth> I also think we should make an explicit supported versions policy, but that needs not just andythenorth
10:46:46  <Wolf01> +1
10:46:52  <Wolf01> +1 too
10:47:50  <Wolf01> I can help you on that (both) I know a bit of flyspray as I was the admin for the one at my last job
10:48:03  <Wolf01> But I used the 1.0b
10:52:14  <Wolf01> Oh, there is even a 1.0 RC4 :o
10:54:25  <peter1138> oh
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11:00:06  <_dp_> o/
11:00:35  <_dp_> andythenorth, why don't you set reproducible crashes to confirmed?
11:01:25  <_dp_> I may try to help fixing some that are reproducible on linux btw
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11:03:58  <planetmaker> _dp_, just post the fix :)
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11:23:18  <_dp_> planetmaker, do at least crash patches get reviewed? there isn't much point to "just post" it if there is no one to merge it ;)
11:26:59  <planetmaker> I would hope so. Best approach is probably to bring up the topic here, though
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11:32:26  <_dp_> uh, ok. Though I don't usually like to bring fs issues here since that's what bugtracker should be for imo, not irc
11:33:03  <andythenorth> _dp_: I can only set it to confirmed if I assign it to me
11:33:08  <andythenorth> then I cant unassign it
11:33:14  <andythenorth> FS is absolutely totally shit
11:33:21  <andythenorth> but it’s not the current problem :)
11:33:33  <LordAro> upgrade to FS1.0!
11:33:39  <LordAro> i'm sure that will solve everything
11:33:44  <andythenorth> lipstick, pig :P
11:33:45  <_dp_> andythenorth, that sucks :(
11:34:35  <_dp_> andythenorth, make as user "Nobody" and assign tasks to him xD
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11:35:11  <andythenorth> ach wifi
11:36:51  <Wolf01> The savegame crashes on load because it tries to get a town with an unused index O_o
11:37:08  <Wolf01> Maybe it's really corrupted
11:38:19  <andythenorth> I would like to get the number of crashes down to ~0
11:38:24  <V453000> btw andythenorth I managed to win the internet yesterday
11:38:28  <V453000> thing works 100%
11:38:32  <andythenorth> V453000: screenshot?
11:38:34  <V453000> now just need to add parameters
11:38:37  <V453000> don't have it here, at work
11:38:44  <Wolf01> <LordAro> i'm sure that will solve everything <- nope, maybe it even breaks things
11:38:47  <andythenorth> didn’t happen then
11:38:51  <V453000> XD K later
11:38:57  <andythenorth> k
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11:41:47  <_dp_> andythenorth, some crashes are ridiculously hard to hunt down, I remember openttd crashing due to a bug in a specific version of a compiler
11:42:17  <andythenorth> if we can’t repro them, they should get discarded
11:42:17  <_dp_> if it wasn't the version I was using there is no chance I could ever find that
11:42:24  <andythenorth> if we can repro but can’t diagnose…that’s hard
11:42:52  <andythenorth> ideally we’d restore the ‘phone home’ system that used to exist
11:43:00  <andythenorth> but with statistical methods to cluster common bugs
11:43:05  <V453000>
11:43:06  <V453000> GG
11:43:06  <andythenorth> that is a boatload of work
11:43:12  <V453000> made wife turn on pc :P
11:43:16  <andythenorth> V453000: heroic
11:43:24  <andythenorth> works eh? o_O
11:43:28  <andythenorth> PIL ftw
11:43:47  <V453000> I had to crop the outputs because the combining didn't seem to work without RGBA, but that's probably just because some of my lists inside of other lists were fucked up
11:44:49  <V453000>
11:45:02  <V453000> iz magic
11:45:57  <andythenorth> so do with all those slices, it is MOAR faster?
11:46:07  <V453000> at the moment the colour comparer goes through all 0-255 indexes of the palette ... I am going to add parameters which allow/disallow colour types and specific indexes, which will 1. make it a lot faster if I use just, say, 16 colours for some pictures, 2. make it controllable - if I don't like some specific index it outputs, I just disable it in that run
11:46:19  <V453000> it should be moar faster
11:46:26  <V453000> I didn't Really test that yet though
11:46:28  <Wolf01> It's nice that "Additional comments about closing:  In r10735." I can't find r10735
11:46:40  <andythenorth>
11:46:49  <andythenorth> V453000: ^
11:46:57  <andythenorth> it’s like map:reduce
11:47:57  <V453000> what
11:48:35  <V453000> well it seems to run in parralel all fine, I just don't know how much the difference actually is
11:48:36  <andythenorth> split, process, combine
11:48:39  <V453000> probably not 16x
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11:48:50  <andythenorth> I get about 2x usually
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11:48:52  <andythenorth> sometimes 4x
11:49:01  <V453000> I don't even remember how much time it took originally so :)
11:49:11  <andythenorth> there’s a lot of starting python, and passing stuff around that adds overhead
11:49:18  <V453000> also I feel like the latest change to using the palette whenever possible and only accessing RGBA when absolutely necessary made it faster
11:49:37  <andythenorth> likely smaller images, faster, less RAM
11:49:48  <V453000> drastically smaller images
11:50:25  <V453000> well I go hunt lunch, probably not going to continue coding tonight as I will not have keyboard, just tablet, but during weekend I hope to finish it :)
11:50:36  <V453000> with the parameters it will be absolutely glorious
11:50:59  <V453000> now it's just automated and works well, plus the antialiasing handling
11:52:12  <andythenorth> such win
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11:57:19  <Wolf01> What happened in 10735... that's a mistery
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12:07:48  <andythenorth> Wolf01: if we could get crashes < 25, they’d fit on one page :D
12:08:00  <Wolf01> Yeah
12:08:20  <andythenorth> and this one isn’t even a crash :)
12:08:56  <Wolf01> Ask LordAro :P
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12:12:04  <Wolf01> Quak
12:13:01  <LordAro> heh
12:13:05  <LordAro> forgot about that one
12:13:29  <andythenorth> do you want it closed? o_O
12:16:33  <frosch123> it's on the official todo list :p
12:17:18  <frosch123> so, what to do? review patches or expand the iron ore mining sites?
12:18:19  <andythenorth> play FIRS of course
12:18:31  <andythenorth> and drink tea
12:19:06  <frosch123> i thought i would never get achievements in factorio, since i always entered cheat commands at the start of a game to make the beginning faster
12:19:19  <frosch123> then i got tired of enternig the commands and wrote a mod which does the same
12:19:42  <frosch123> funnily cheat mods do not disable achievements like the actual cheats do
12:20:09  <frosch123> now i wonder about the intention of the "produce 20M basic circuit achievements"
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12:20:45  <andythenorth> now I want to play F to find out :P
12:20:47  <andythenorth> but I tried F
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12:22:03  <frosch123> now i have launched 26 satellites but the 20M achievement is only 20% complete
12:22:45  <frosch123> i get achievements where you have to produce N amount per hour, and I think I got all of them
12:23:15  <andythenorth> achievements are…dunno
12:23:16  <Wolf01> <- wtf people even try to hurt themselves like this?
12:23:22  <frosch123> but a produce N within a game achievement is weird, if it is not completed in an extensive playthrough
12:23:29  <frosch123> am i supposed to just leave it running over night? :p
12:23:30  <andythenorth> I do achievements in my kids dragon games because they produce gems
12:23:47  <andythenorth> but in other games, the achievements seem quite meh often
12:23:57  <andythenorth> ‘drive 5000 miles in your truck'
12:24:02  <andythenorth> ‘visit Hamburg'
12:24:17  <andythenorth> I guess that’s what Busy Bee does though :)
12:24:21  <Wolf01> <frosch123> am i supposed to just leave it running over night? :p <- no, you just play for 1 hour
12:24:39  <LordAro> andythenorth: iirc i did it because it was on the official todo list
12:24:44  <LordAro> would be a shame to lose it
12:25:19  <LordAro> even though i'm sure it wouldn't be a great loss (i can't remember and i've not looked)
12:25:47  <andythenorth> seems fair
12:26:06  <LordAro> Wolf01: doesn't matter, game shouldn't crash :p
12:26:12  <andythenorth> Wolf01: looks like someone who would be good at a QA job ;)
12:26:22  <andythenorth> quite specific attack and repro
12:26:37  <_dp_> or just a typo :p
12:26:37  <Wolf01> I don't even know how to do it
12:26:38  <Wolf01> XD
12:27:22  <_dp_> does anything but connect command even matter for that crash?
12:27:34  <andythenorth> dunno :)
12:27:40  <andythenorth> way out of my wheelhouse :)
12:28:33  <Wolf01>
12:29:34  <Wolf01> I can't reproduce it
12:30:32  <Wolf01> But I tried with a local server, maybe with an online server is different
12:30:55  <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you do?  ”Client: Execute 'connect <server-ip>#N', where N is greater than 15 and less than 255.”
12:30:56  <andythenorth> o_O
12:31:19  <Wolf01> You can read the commands I issued
12:31:49  <andythenorth> I did :)
12:32:55  <Wolf01> BTW, the error message should be split in 2: "company does not exist" and "company-id must be between 1 and 15"
12:37:31  <andythenorth> how can that be done?
12:37:39  <andythenorth> patchpack? :P
12:38:03  <Wolf01> The crash?
12:38:51  <andythenorth> nah, the split
12:42:10  <Wolf01> Just a patch
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12:43:16  <Wolf01> Btw, I tried with connect, it won't let me join a company "30" but it exits to titlescreen with a "protocol error" when connecting to company "2" which does not exists
12:43:19  <Wolf01> No crash
12:44:49  <andythenorth> did you try connecting to the IP address ?
12:44:59  <Wolf01> Yes
12:45:31  <Wolf01> connect ::1#254 puts me in company 1, connect ::1#2 exits with protocol error
12:46:16  <andythenorth> hmm
12:47:23  <Wolf01> Maybe on win10 works differently
12:47:37  <andythenorth> I should try and repro this I guess :P
12:48:02  <andythenorth> my list of grfs I don’t want is getting bigger
12:48:13  <andythenorth> that makes my openttd start a lot slower :P
12:48:42  <Wolf01> second image, something fishy
12:49:00  <_dp_> there is join_as > MAX_COMPANIES so idk hot to reproduce that crash
12:49:06  <_dp_> *check
12:49:53  <Wolf01> Also fuck italian, just installed the 1.7.1 and got italian again
12:51:09  <_dp_> Wolf01, weird, connect ::1#254 doesn't do anythin for me
12:51:22  <_dp_> just writes command usage msg
12:51:43  <_dp_> mb some memory corruption happening here
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12:52:42  <Wolf01> Nice that consistency between different OSes
12:55:20  <_dp_> hm, looking at server parsing function, is it even supposed to parse ::1 ?
12:55:55  <_dp_> oh, there is ipv6 check beforehand, nvm
13:00:11  <_dp_> funny tho it "parses" any garbage you throw at it
13:00:12  <Wolf01> BTW, I can see my server with both ipv4 and ipv6, maybe that's the problem
13:01:22  <Wolf01> I can connect without problems with "connect ::1#1" from titlescreen
13:02:12  <Wolf01> But #2 -> protocol error
13:02:45  <_dp_> Wolf01, yeah, it doesn't know beforehand if company #2 exists on server, so that's expected I guess
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13:03:08  <Wolf01> It should create a company if valid and server allows new companies
13:03:39  <_dp_> Wolf01, but there is a check for >15 so it shouldn't work let alone crash
13:04:55  <Wolf01> Ok from title screen, #1 works, #2 protocol error, #255 spectator, #254 command usage
13:05:07  <_dp_> Wolf01, that's debatable, I'd say just giving a better error message is a way to go
13:05:43  <_dp_> Wolf01, yeah, same here
13:05:55  <Wolf01> I can't reproduce that crash
13:06:04  <_dp_> waaait a sec...
13:06:06  <Wolf01> Both with ::1 and
13:07:18  * andythenorth debugging javascript :|
13:09:25  <_dp_> ok, it accepts negative company numbers but I still can't get it to crash
13:09:44  <Wolf01> Are you on win 10 too?
13:09:54  <_dp_> but at least it tries to connect
13:09:58  <_dp_> I'm on ubuntu)
13:10:01  <andythenorth> he scrolled up on the company list?
13:10:10  <andythenorth> he/she
13:11:21  <andythenorth> oh nvm
13:11:24  * andythenorth misreading
13:12:46  <Wolf01> Company list/current company works for me
13:13:09  <andythenorth> summarise attempted repros, put on the ticket?
13:13:23  <andythenorth> ask if it’s consistently reproducible for OP?
13:13:32  <andythenorth> might have been a one-off, totally unrelated crash
13:13:33  <Wolf01> Need someone wint win 7
13:13:44  <Wolf01> *with
13:13:47  <andythenorth> steps read like OP tried it a few times to verify
13:14:01  <andythenorth> it’s had like what, 2 people looking for 30 mins each
13:14:27  <andythenorth> back to OP
13:15:07  <Wolf01> Tried exact steps ad OP, no crash
13:15:11  <Wolf01> *as
13:15:50  <Wolf01> Both joining as company 1 and spectator, and tried to click on company button
13:22:48  <_dp_> code looks kinda fishy tho, it may be possible to crash it
13:22:56  <_dp_> just not with any company number
13:26:09  <_dp_> basically it sends unsigned company id to server but locally joins with signed
13:27:17  <_dp_> there are checks for company id everywhere but it may be possible to avoid them by exploiting implicit conversions
13:28:47  <_dp_> and yeah, since it's undefined behavior can be definitely different on other OS
13:31:35  <_dp_> connect ::1#4294967296 starts new company xD
13:32:06  <Wolf01> ::1#0 should start a new company too
13:32:11  <Wolf01> Reading the code
13:32:42  <_dp_> Wolf01, yeah, it does
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13:44:09  <Wolf01> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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13:44:31  <Wolf01> Maybe Win10 is not affected by this problem
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14:07:18  <supermop> lot's of theory and philosophy in the forum huh?
14:07:23  <supermop> lots
14:07:25  <supermop> damn it
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14:36:33  <_dp_> WARNING: client 1 (IP: ::1) tried to execute a command as company 256, kicking...
14:36:41  <_dp_> close but no cookie :/
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15:18:26  <_dp_> Day 254. Still no crash. But I found a cute little bug.
15:20:46  <_dp_> It's a miracle it hasn't crashed yet tho, it's in completely broken state
15:20:57  <_dp_> like I can open mb lobby while still playing on server
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15:29:43  <andythenorth> neat
15:32:32  <andythenorth> who does have commit rights these days? o_O
15:32:37  <peter1138> erm
15:33:08  <peter1138> probably me
15:35:48  <andythenorth> there’s probably a list
15:35:51  <andythenorth> probably in git :P
15:37:19  <andythenorth>
15:37:26  <andythenorth> peter1138: you’re nearly winning ;)
15:40:54  <peter1138> miles away
15:41:19  <_dp_>;a=commit;f=console_cmds.c;h=d6a1f3e412834c52b09e297cffc36d0776cb7a92
15:41:29  <_dp_> is there a way to see commit log for that branch?
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15:43:47  <andythenorth> peter1138: fix typos in comments, 1 commit at a time
15:44:18  <andythenorth> so do I have more total commits than anyone?
15:44:21  <andythenorth>
15:44:23  <andythenorth> stupid game :P
15:45:04  <peter1138> _dp_, long since deleted i think. silly svn.
15:45:29  <peter1138> maybe if you check out that svn revision it'll be in there
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16:15:02  <Wolf01> MB wrote: "Hehe. Posting anything like this would result into immediate removal on tt-forums. :p" shit... does he even believe about this? Does he believe tt-f is a police state? Ive seen topics closed, yes, devs being grumpy, yes, but I expect this behavior more from simuscape than tt-f
16:15:20  <Wolf01> (I'm reading the "old discussion")
16:15:40  <andythenorth> Michael is Michael
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16:16:02  <andythenorth> he was there right at the start somewhere, and then things changed
16:16:21  <Wolf01> He never assimilated than TTDPatch lost its life to OTTD
16:16:50  <andythenorth> I spent a relatively long time talking to SAC directly on Simuscape, and could never get her to provide evidence or links to the actual problems she claimed were rampant
16:17:00  <andythenorth> and I wouldn’t retread that ground :P
16:17:17  <Wolf01> For me it was the most natural of the things, one limited system to change things losing appeal in favour of an open system
16:17:17  <andythenorth> been there, done that
16:17:38  <Wolf01> Yes, I read all of it
16:17:48  <andythenorth> ideally some group would usurp OpenTTD with a credible fork
16:17:53  <andythenorth> NotOpenTTD
16:17:56  <Wolf01> You are stupid but I don't tell you why
16:18:08  <Wolf01> Childish way of thinking
16:18:25  <Wolf01> Also... woman
16:18:43  <andythenorth> nah, it’s not gendered behaviour
16:18:47  <andythenorth> don’t bring that into it :P
16:19:27  <Wolf01> Did you notice also how she softened when you talked about going back to newgrf coding?
16:20:04  <andythenorth> I have put it all from my mind :)
16:20:07  <Wolf01> I read that as "he could the stuff I want for (me) us"
16:20:18  <Wolf01> *could do
16:20:25  <andythenorth> there are other people having plenty of fun without the drama
16:20:28  <andythenorth> like GarryG
16:21:58  <andythenorth> peter1138: such stations? o_O
16:23:00  <Wolf01> Does he want the whole station animate and not just the tiles where the train is in?
16:24:00  <Wolf01> Simulating the pax moving from platform to entrance or something, maybe
16:24:44  <Wolf01> Answer "yes, it's possible, just find one who can do this"
16:25:09  <andythenorth> animtation triggers are beyond what I understand :P
16:25:31  * andythenorth can’t type
16:34:29  <peter1138> andythenorth, beyond me too!
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16:43:20  <andythenorth> we could probably learn :P
16:43:30  <andythenorth> it’s a valid goal
16:43:59  <andythenorth> it’s just changing 3 values in the table here
16:44:02  <andythenorth> oh and in src :P
16:44:37  <andythenorth> is newgrf_station.cpp a scary place?
16:45:04  <peter1138> might not even be the right place
16:46:02  * andythenorth found a line
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16:46:11  <andythenorth> looks like that
16:46:20  <andythenorth> just a list eh
16:46:36  <andythenorth> L935
16:46:42  <Wolf01> andythenorth: speaking of police state <- ok, it's necroposting, but was that post edited? Was a reply to a deleted post? Or was just a warning?
16:47:03  <andythenorth> nobody wants to reopen the pain
16:49:18  <andythenorth> peter1138: what could go wrong? o_O
16:49:48  <andythenorth> desyncs?
16:49:50  <andythenorth> break existing grfs?
16:49:54  <andythenorth> break savegames?
16:50:49  <peter1138> obviously not the right answer :p
16:50:57  <peter1138> that isn't adding things
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17:02:53  <FLHerne> about declaring Cirdan's fork the official version? :P
17:03:50  <FLHerne> He seems to be one of not many patch authors who's really tried to improve the core structures
17:03:50  <Wolf01> But only if he wants to maintain the bugtracker
17:04:13  <FLHerne> And does have a lot of the features people keep demanding
17:04:21  <FLHerne> (s/people/I/ :P)
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17:04:37  <Wolf01> Eh, also I want a lot of features
17:05:25  <Wolf01> But I never loved mods and patchpacks much, mainly because trunk might change, patchpacks might not be updated anymore, mods will become incompatible...
17:05:30  *** Sylf has quit IRC
17:07:02  <Wolf01> I stopped using modded minecraft versions because they used a core game version which is really behind the actual one, mainly stating doing so because "the core game new features are shit in relation to the mod ones"
17:07:10  <andythenorth> maybe I’ll do a fork
17:07:13  <Wolf01> (see better than wolves, for example)
17:07:26  <peter1138> yeah they stuck on 1.7.10 for years
17:07:42  <peter1138> there are individual mods for 1.12.1 though
17:07:57  <peter1138> i'm sticking with visual mods only really
17:08:08  <peter1138> eg dynamic surroundings and better foliage
17:08:14  <andythenorth> delete: timetables, smooth economy, conditional orders
17:08:16  <andythenorth> bigger hammer
17:08:21  <Wolf01> Also, patchpacks are usually maintained by a single, which mean you must accept his vision and not a vision of a community
17:08:34  <andythenorth> andypack :P
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17:09:27  <Wolf01> Even if Cirdan's one has a lot of community requested features, I don't feel to play it like the vanilla
17:11:03  <Wolf01> If I'll ever play a patchpack again, I'll stary my one, like andy :P
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17:13:44  <FLHerne> Cirdan's one really has stopped being a "patchpack" in a conventional sense though, he reimplemented the map array, cargo handling, sprite stuff and other core things that aren't directly related to user-visible features
17:14:20  <_dp_> FLHerne, does he still maintain backwards compatibility?
17:14:26  <FLHerne> Yes
17:14:50  <FLHerne> Not in the reverse direction, though
17:15:04  <FLHerne> (load savegames up to the most recent trunk merge)
17:15:14  <Wolf01> I've never read much about it, but if the single patches are branched, I think they could even be considered to be merged in trunk in future, maybe a distant future
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17:15:48  <Wolf01> And I'm not speaking about daylength or signals on bridges, but the core optimizations
17:16:12  <Wolf01> BTW GTG BBL
17:16:14  <Wolf01> :P
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17:45:52  <peter1138> ok, i'm on windows 10
17:45:56  <peter1138> how do i dev on openttd?
17:47:00  <frosch123> Wolf01 should know
17:47:14  <peter1138> i'm still thinking vm with linux :p
17:47:29  <frosch123> i think wolf is using the ubuntu subsystem
17:48:17  <LordAro> peter1138: it wouldn't be a bad thing for someone to get VS2017 working :p
17:48:40  <frosch123> someone did and said that the vs2015 projects work
17:49:02  <LordAro> well that's boring
17:49:14  <peter1138> i prefer vim :p
17:49:55  <LordAro> <3
17:52:23  <_dp_> why does openttd call FcInit 12 times on start?
17:52:33  <_dp_> takes like 1-2 sec each on my pc
17:54:11  <LordAro> _dp_: do you have a custom font set?
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17:54:32  <_dp_> LordAro, ofc
17:54:38  <LordAro> probably that then
17:54:53  <_dp_> LordAro, I understand one but not 12 times
17:54:58  <LordAro> 3 font sizes
17:55:11  <LordAro> and it doesn't appear to be cached at all
17:56:35  <_dp_> LordAro, so? it's a library initialization function, only needs to be called once as far as I understand
17:57:00  <LordAro> oh, i totally agree
17:57:06  <LordAro> i'm just stating why it is :p
17:57:40  <_dp_> but, yeah, but openttd calls it for every font on every config parse that it does like 2 for each game and somehow it loads 2 games on startup
17:57:46  <_dp_> .. or smth like that )
18:00:42  <peter1138> smth?
18:02:37  <_dp_> ... and don't even ask how I ended up in font cache while fixing network stuff :p
18:03:05  <andythenorth> repro-ed this earlier
18:03:14  <andythenorth> how is FIRS causing a crash?
18:03:22  <andythenorth> (Auz industry is a FIRS fork)
18:03:51  *** FLHerne has quit IRC
18:03:51  <LordAro> this definitely means we get to blame you
18:03:55  <andythenorth> yup
18:04:43  <frosch123> @blame andy
18:04:43  <DorpsGek> frosch123: blames andy
18:04:56  <andythenorth> fair
18:05:08  <frosch123> i failed to make it say /me
18:09:48  <andythenorth> can we close?
18:10:10  <andythenorth> there are a few random crashes, but eh, it’s random
18:13:50  <LordAro> magical osx crashes
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18:13:53  <andythenorth> also
18:18:25  <andythenorth> :o we have a readme?
18:18:29  * andythenorth never saw it
18:18:40  <frosch123> we constantly link it on the forums
18:19:05  <frosch123> section 4.x contains the search paths
18:19:23  * andythenorth reading it
18:19:25  <andythenorth> how interesting
18:19:28  <LordAro> heh
18:19:49  <LordAro> it was suggested before, but decided that it wasn't worth the effort because of the systems where it is distributed as a gz file
18:22:11  <_dp_> 5694 looks like a perfectly valid bug. even if there is noone who can fix it atm it's not a valid reason to close it imo
18:22:52  <andythenorth> I think OS X users paid the entry fee
18:23:08  <andythenorth> Apple platforms have a limited lifespan
18:23:30  <andythenorth> don’t like that, don’t use the platform
18:24:47  * andythenorth didn’t just close it though, in case of other views :)
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18:40:18  <andythenorth> Wolf01: vehicle movement tweaks? o_O
18:43:03  <frosch123> there is a setting for trains, whether they can reverse at drive-through stops
18:45:02  <andythenorth> yes
18:45:18  <frosch123> from a gameplay pov it's the same thing
18:45:19  <andythenorth> RVs have to go looking for a road tile with the right bits on it
18:45:35  <frosch123> though i guess people also complained about 90 degree being the same setting for trains and ships
18:45:44  * andythenorth did :P
18:46:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can force-reverse rv anywhere
18:46:16  <andythenorth> ‘turn around, turn around'
18:46:30  <andythenorth> going looking for the road tile with a turnaround point is part of game?
18:46:37  <andythenorth> obviously it is irl :P
18:47:00  <andythenorth> speaking as the owner of a van, there are limited places that it is wise to turn
18:47:16  <andythenorth> buses do not pull a u-turn in the street
18:47:21  <andythenorth> but eh, realism :P
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18:52:48  <andythenorth> 620 FS tasks :)
18:53:26  <frosch123> so 1/3 bugs?
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18:54:50  <andythenorth> calc 620/167
18:54:55  <andythenorth> @calc 620/167
18:54:55  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 3.7125748503
18:54:59  <andythenorth> approx
18:55:09  <frosch123> did you close 50 bugs?
18:55:12  <frosch123> i thought it were 200
18:55:34  <andythenorth> I closed 200 or so tickets total in last week or so
18:56:19  <frosch123> only :o i thought you closed like 500 :p
18:56:22  <andythenorth> nah
18:56:40  <andythenorth> I requested closure on quite a few, where I might be being a jackass
18:56:48  <andythenorth> I am somewhat trying to repro anything labelled ‘crash’
18:56:54  <andythenorth> although that is very tedious :|
18:57:25  <andythenorth> I am also gardening feature requests, but that is much harder
18:57:32  <andythenorth> so many good / legit ones
18:58:52  <supermop> yeah?
19:03:59  <andythenorth> supermop: sceptical? :)
19:04:03  <andythenorth> or want to look through them?
19:04:10  <supermop> both?
19:04:21  <andythenorth> broadly, they’re not getting implemented :)
19:04:31  <andythenorth> unless we write a code-generating AI
19:04:43  <andythenorth> 370 of them
19:05:08  <andythenorth> hmm, that opens on 3rd page, oops
19:05:47  <supermop> just wondering what people want other than curvy tracks etc
19:06:12  <andythenorth> most of those people don’t discover FS
19:06:22  <andythenorth> there are lots of small detailed suggestions
19:06:37  <supermop> train always goes to nearest depot huh
19:06:48  <supermop> how the hell would that make sense
19:07:25  <andythenorth> the request is inverse of title
19:07:35  <andythenorth> request is not to go wandering off across the map
19:07:44  <Wolf01> <frosch123> i think wolf is using the ubuntu subsystem <- nah, is CLI only, I could run dedicated servers with that
19:07:50  <andythenorth> I’ve fixed it a long time ago: disable breakdowns + servicing
19:07:56  <Wolf01> <peter1138> how do i dev on openttd? <- VS?
19:11:05  <supermop> put depots in sensible places and trains wont wonder
19:11:47  <supermop> what if the geographically nearest depot requires running to other side of map to get to?
19:11:58  <andythenorth> supermop: feel free to comment :)
19:12:43  <andythenorth> a more interesting search is feature requests with no comments/changes since 2012
19:13:37  <andythenorth> oh this one’s good
19:13:50  <andythenorth> it’s the fool’s errand of enforceable client-side security
19:14:02  * andythenorth used to make games with high score tables that had real prizes
19:14:06  <andythenorth> yeah, no
19:15:45  <_dp_> supermop, putting depots on every possible intersection doesn't sound very sensible to me :p
19:16:03  <_dp_> supermop, even without 90 degree turns
19:17:17  <_dp_> or rather not intersection but any place where train has choice
19:17:32  <_dp_> including stations, etc
19:19:08  <andythenorth> servicing is a broken mechanic anyway :)
19:19:28  <andythenorth> if we need to make it something you don’t have to think about, then just turn it off :P
19:19:35  <andythenorth> solution already provided
19:19:42  <supermop> yeah i never have it on
19:20:02  <andythenorth> but eh, the fallacy is assuming only one play style :P
19:20:31  <Wolf01> That MB guy is worse than a child
19:20:50  <Wolf01> If he continues I'll get banned
19:20:58  <Wolf01> I hate children
19:21:18  <Wolf01> I hate real children even more
19:28:23  <andythenorth> Michael never ever bothers me
19:28:33  <andythenorth> except the DMCA takedown thing
19:28:36  <andythenorth> that bothered me a lot
19:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a dmca takedown thing?
19:33:27  <frosch123> yes mb filed a dmca takedown against ottd because some teenager uploaded a newgrf of him to bananas
19:35:39  <Wolf01> Against OTTD
19:35:49  <frosch123> against one of the mirrors
19:37:11  <frosch123> well, it wasn't a valid dmca
19:37:27  <frosch123> for a dmca you have to give a grace period of 24 hours or something
19:37:30  <supermop> 3 track lines never really work in ottd
19:37:30  <frosch123> he only gave 10
19:37:59  <supermop> no real benifit over 2
19:38:48  <supermop> a lot of older line in the US are 3 track, to handle rush hours, but even then, its not really idea
19:38:49  <supermop> l
19:43:39  <andythenorth> it’s the one thing that makes me devalue any comments from Michael about community
19:43:59  <andythenorth> he is happy to identify other vandals, bullies etc, but it was the single biggest attempted piece of vandalism
19:44:04  <andythenorth> that I am aware of
19:44:20  <andythenorth> but other than that I enjoy his contributions :)
19:44:25  <andythenorth> we can’t all agree eh?
19:48:23  <andythenorth> close?  Smatz indicates it’s solved
19:48:41  <frosch123> yep
19:48:50  <frosch123> if anything it belongs to the transparency gui rework
19:50:05  <andythenorth> road eye candy grf spec :P
19:52:38  <supermop> road candy
19:53:06  <andythenorth> road candy is a great name :)
19:53:12  <andythenorth> should be a new feature
19:53:16  <andythenorth> or a grf, or AI, or GS :P
19:53:27  * andythenorth renames Road Hog
19:53:30  <supermop> damn it
19:53:47  <supermop> my grf is still 'generic road vehicles'
19:58:08  <andythenorth> is this a bug?
19:58:26  <supermop> ha
19:59:05  <supermop> feature request: allow building arbitrarily many HQs
19:59:24  <frosch123> nah, it's about moving by overbuilding
19:59:53  <supermop> doesnt work for airports ,shouldn't work for hqs
20:04:19  <andythenorth> closed
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20:11:21  <andythenorth> new scenario format? o_O
20:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what does the question have to do with the topic?
20:16:36  <Wolf01> Alberth talked about that in tt-f
20:19:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what’s the task about then? o_O
20:19:16  <Wolf01> Removing industries and houses isn't a problem. The problem with George's suggestion is the town growth algorythm, towns grow roads too
20:19:34  <Wolf01> andythenorth <- <Wolf01> Removing industries and houses
20:20:01  <andythenorth> use new scenario format, ignore houses and industries
20:20:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a simple loop that checks if owner=player => remove
20:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no reason to have a new format for that
20:20:26  <Wolf01> Nah, he just wants to celanup the landscape and restart placing things from scratch
20:20:32  <Wolf01> *cleanup
20:20:58  <Wolf01> What Eddi said
20:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but selectively
20:21:21  <Wolf01> I wanted a "remove trees" feature too
20:21:39  <Wolf01> I dynamite the whole map
20:22:02  <Wolf01> Terrain doesn't change with dynamite, maybe some internal lakes
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20:30:47  <Wolf01> <frosch123> yes mb filed a dmca takedown against ottd because some teenager uploaded a newgrf of him to bananas <- AHAHHAHAH that was V XDDDDDD I just read about it
20:31:14  <frosch123> what? no
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20:31:27  <Wolf01> <- not this one?
20:32:12  <frosch123> no
20:32:30  <Wolf01> So it happened more than once with fake DCMA requests
20:32:44  <V453000> wat
20:33:11  <frosch123> Wolf01:
20:33:58  <V453000> sac filed dmca on my dropbox cause I was distributing stolen trees from bananas with the original gplv2 license
20:34:54  <V453000> if it was the same, idk
20:36:12  <Wolf01> No, that was newships
20:36:17  <_dp_> ok, I'm done with this one
20:36:26  <_dp_> not fully happy but meh, it works
20:36:32  <_dp_> openttd networking is a mess :/
20:37:12  <andythenorth> a patch :)
20:37:12  <supermop> hmm wolf's name looks somewhat similar to mine
20:37:22  <supermop> want to trade places?
20:37:35  <Wolf01> Nope, I like Europe more :P
20:37:44  <Wolf01> Maybe if you were in Japan...
20:37:45  <supermop> me too
20:37:52  <supermop> i will be in two week
20:37:53  <supermop> s
20:38:28  <supermop> well first korea for a week then japan
20:38:41  <Wolf01> BTW, they call you Wolf too?
20:39:05  <supermop> no but i guess i could try to hype up a fake new nickname
20:39:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf02?
20:41:27  <Wolf01> It might conflicts with my alternate nickname, but I think that is Wolf03 and I don't know why it changes back to 03 every time I put 02
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20:56:06  <LordAro> andythenorth: I AM OFFENDED
20:56:29  <andythenorth> ok
20:56:34  <Wolf01> Me too, what did you do to offend LA?
20:56:35  <andythenorth> thanks for letting me know :)
20:56:39  <LordAro> np
20:56:42  <LordAro> good discussion
21:00:03  <andythenorth> enjoyed it
21:00:23  <Wolf01> BTW, reading that DCMA discussion I think I found a good list of the bullies SAC's was talking about
21:01:00  <Wolf01> Too bad the only bullies there were those 2 people
21:03:52  <andythenorth> old ground Wolf01 :)
21:03:56  <andythenorth> been trodden many times
21:04:00  <frosch123> LordAro: you have the only commit in how many weeks?
21:06:19  <andythenorth> he’s even beating translators
21:06:47  <LordAro> frosch123: you should fix that
21:07:23  <andythenorth> commit my patch that fixes tropic TGP
21:07:36  <andythenorth> or windowshade for station window
21:07:41  <andythenorth> :P
21:07:47  <Wolf01> Commit NRT
21:07:49  * LordAro reading through the DCMA thread
21:07:54  * LordAro much popcorn
21:07:58  <Wolf01> :D
21:08:22  <Wolf01> I can't understand why I missed that one, and wasn't even in my dark age
21:08:28  <andythenorth> you didn’t miss much
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21:08:45  <andythenorth> crap like that just drives people out
21:08:58  <andythenorth> what shall I call my patchpack?
21:09:00  <Wolf01> It's a nice comedy
21:09:01  <andythenorth> ‘probably broken'?
21:09:18  <andythenorth> ‘no-support’
21:09:56  <frosch123> does it have firs built-in and no option to change it?
21:09:57  <andythenorth> ‘no-timetables-no-conditional-orders-no-semaphores-minor-ui-improvements’
21:10:02  <andythenorth> that is a nice idea :)
21:10:13  <frosch123> newgrf settings go directly to firs settings
21:10:18  <andythenorth> but I read a blog post about micro-services distributed architecture once
21:10:25  <Wolf01> Try with "my-vision-of-ottd"
21:10:25  <andythenorth> so I like having multiple apps to maintain :P
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21:15:55  <frosch123> 82 unread mails :)
21:16:15  <Wolf01> Andy worked a lot today :)
21:17:14  <LordAro> FCVO work
21:17:59  <Wolf01> FCVO?
21:18:12  <LordAro> for certain values of
21:18:17  <Wolf01> Oh
21:18:36  <andythenorth> it takes a lot of effort justifying why to close stuff
21:18:49  <andythenorth> but fortunately I automated it with copy-paste :P
21:18:56  <Wolf01> XD
21:19:01  <andythenorth> 600 issues open
21:19:10  <andythenorth> really really hard to just close the remainder
21:19:22  <andythenorth> unless we just nuke them
21:19:36  <andythenorth> with no rationale other than ‘time for a clean up'
21:19:44  <frosch123> i wonder how many you closed which were on my todo list
21:19:49  <frosch123> not that that means any :p
21:21:10  <andythenorth> write a comparison tool :)
21:24:25  <andythenorth> ok bed :)
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21:25:30  <_dp_> ez
21:25:35  <_dp_> merge all patches and close issues :p
21:25:48  <Wolf01> It would be utopic
21:28:29  <Wolf01> You will find patches with "remove X" and "extend X", you could merge them so you first extend X and then remove it, which mean you can just close "extend X", or decide which one to merge, which mean you have to make a decision and close one of them... and you will come back at this same point :P
21:33:20  <_dp_> let the strongest patch win!
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21:43:24  <LordAro> mm, that was boringly depressing
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21:45:29  <supermop> oh man this big interchange station has been too stations this whole time
21:46:08  <supermop> now im not sure which to get rid of to combine with the other - both have timetabled trains and buses, and rich cdist links
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21:49:25  <supermop> could connect them via a bus
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22:04:52  <FLHerne_> Classic UK solution :P
22:05:20  <FLHerne_> Perhaps OTTD needs pedestrian simulation
22:05:48  <Wolf01> OTTD might need cargo walking
22:05:57  <Wolf01> Or walking cargo
22:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like TF?
22:07:06  <Wolf01> Too much realistic?
22:08:19  <Wolf01> Also we need to fix catchement areas
22:09:13  <Wolf01> The current approach is way too simple
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22:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, once you got proper walking, you don't need catchment areas anymore
22:15:12  <Wolf01> You will need catchement areas to connect stations, houses and industries in a delimited area
22:15:34  *** Lejving_ has joined #openttd
22:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "catchment area" will be replaced by how far the people are willing to walk over the course of a journey
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22:16:55  <Eddi|zuHause> (but that idea quickly falls apart when you consider that cargodist does not actually model a journey)
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22:26:42  <supermop> hmm new branch works out to about 160 day round trip
22:26:50  <supermop> as opposed to 150 on mainline
22:27:25  <supermop> not sure i want the train sitting on its ass for 20 days to make it 180 and preserve 30 day cycle
22:28:20  <supermop> might make the mainline sit 10 instead
22:28:32  <supermop> hmm
22:28:41  <Wolf01> Mmmh, you just made me thinka bout a new daylength patch
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22:28:49  <supermop> then 1/4 of trains are mainline instead of 1/3
22:28:58  <Wolf01> Change days to hours
22:29:02  <Wolf01> Or even minutes
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22:29:28  <supermop> rather 2/4 are mainline and 2/4 for branch, as opposed to 2/3 and 1/3
22:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> don't we have that patch already?
22:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> like 3 times?
22:30:09  <supermop> maybe ill do mainline at 0 and 20, branch at 10, and mainline short turn at 30
22:30:33  <supermop> Wolf01: i want a rush hour so i can have different service patterns
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22:32:00  <Wolf01> Eddi: at least 4 where 2 are mine
22:32:12  <Wolf01> I will make 3 mine
22:32:51  <LordAro> i made a post on the forums
22:32:55  <LordAro> first time in 2 years
22:33:02  <Wolf01> The weird thing is to explain why some days have 30 hours, some 31 and one 28 or 29 :D
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22:58:38  <Eddi|zuHause> daylight saving time
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