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00:17:29 <Wolf01> 'night 00:17:31 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 00:35:46 <_dp_> ok, that's weird 00:36:04 <_dp_> somehow new task I created got assigned to several random people at once https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6610 00:36:39 <_dp_> and I can't even remove those assignments now :( 00:41:42 <peter1138> fixed 00:43:36 <_dp_> ty 01:57:33 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 01:57:47 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 02:09:48 *** orudge` has quit IRC 02:15:42 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 02:15:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 02:20:54 *** glx has quit IRC 02:39:48 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:39:52 *** Flygon has quit IRC 02:40:14 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 03:15:58 *** APTX has joined #openttd 03:17:20 *** APTX_ has quit IRC 03:29:37 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 03:30:17 *** orudge` has quit IRC 03:30:40 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 03:30:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 03:44:55 *** orudge` has quit IRC 03:45:07 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 03:45:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 04:24:49 *** Cubey has quit IRC 04:34:52 *** orudge` has quit IRC 04:35:00 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 04:35:00 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 04:43:03 *** orudge` has quit IRC 04:43:04 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 04:43:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 04:43:11 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd 04:46:13 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 04:46:27 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 05:22:31 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 05:40:50 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 05:45:33 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 06:08:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 06:11:04 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:27:33 *** orudge` has quit IRC 06:27:49 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 06:27:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 06:31:39 <andythenorth> o/ 06:33:13 <peter1138> hi 06:34:22 <andythenorth> why don’t we sleep more? 06:35:26 <LordAro> in your case, is the answer not related to you? 06:40:51 <andythenorth> well either yes, OR I don’t go to bed early enough 06:43:36 <LordAro> :p 06:55:26 <andythenorth> hmm ticket count has gone up 06:56:02 <andythenorth> _that’s_ not playing the game right :P 06:56:42 <andythenorth> LordAro: can Circle aslo build NRT? 06:57:09 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/tree/road-and-tram-types 07:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: certainly, it's never "playing the game right" if you have only one metric to judge your work on 07:11:06 <andythenorth> oh you want a balanced scorecard? o_O :P 07:11:18 <andythenorth> what’s the balance to ‘reduce ticket to win' 07:11:32 <andythenorth> ('tickets') 07:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: even a "scorecard" is, ultimately, "one metric" 07:13:39 <andythenorth> are you suggesting all things resolve to one metric? o_O 07:13:46 <andythenorth> hmm 07:14:07 <andythenorth> if I collapse it to ‘winning’ or ‘losing’, that’s inevitably one metric :P 07:14:42 <LordAro> andythenorth: don't see why not, although you'd have to make it "the github way" i.e. a pull request to (currently) my fork 07:14:59 <andythenorth> that bit of github boggles my brain :P 07:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with metrics is, they never truely cover the "optimal" case. so once you're done optimizing for that one metric, every action you do towards the true optimal case will look like "unoptimizing" towards that metric 07:15:35 <andythenorth> can’t just point a Circle job at a different remote? 07:15:44 <LordAro> nope 07:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so, you have to basically abandon this metric 07:16:02 <LordAro> the config's in the repo, so it has to compare against something 07:16:19 <LordAro> in fact, it'd have to be added regardless 07:16:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you leave me with no counter argument :P 07:18:09 <andythenorth> LordAro: if were using it in production, would the config be in the ottd repo? 07:18:43 * andythenorth should probably just get a Circle account and try 07:19:24 <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah 07:19:42 <LordAro> also, it only seems to build to the master/default branch on github 07:20:00 <LordAro> (without pull request) 07:20:45 <LordAro> tbf though, i doubt you've done anything compiler specific 07:20:55 <LordAro> regression might be broken though :p 07:21:11 <LordAro> but since that requires a graphics set, i've not yet worked out how to solve that 07:21:31 <LordAro> guess i could download latest opengfx, but... ew 07:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there a nogfx? 07:24:11 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 07:24:16 * Wolf01 pops up 07:24:53 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: not afaik 07:25:14 <andythenorth> the game still ships not working out of the box? 07:25:23 <LordAro> andythenorth: regardless, i can't look at it until this evening, see if you can solve it by then :p 07:25:30 <Wolf01> o/ 07:25:33 <LordAro> andythenorth: bootstrap system still works afaik 07:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends what you mean with "out of the box" 07:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it'll prompt you for automatically downloading a graphics set if you don't have one 07:26:14 <andythenorth> right 07:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> on most systems 07:26:23 <andythenorth> _probably_ fine 07:26:40 <andythenorth> that is a PITA for automated testing 07:26:56 <andythenorth> although it’s great for testing the download prompt :P 07:27:37 <andythenorth> I might start a github repo for functional tests 07:27:47 <andythenorth> if it works, maybe we could add it as a remote to ottd 07:27:59 <andythenorth> then eventually move it into the project 07:28:19 <LordAro> the regression test is *sort of* functional tests 07:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but still, i seem to remember a "graphics" set specifically for servers, which doesn't actually contain graphics 07:28:39 <LordAro> (runs an ai, checks values are what they are expected) 07:28:50 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: hmm 07:29:18 <LordAro> without being able to examine the farm.o.o system it's difficult to tell what it does 07:29:52 <andythenorth> do you get any logging output? 07:30:08 <LordAro> yeah 07:31:08 <LordAro> andythenorth: see bin/ai/regression 07:31:17 <andythenorth> errr ok :) 07:31:23 * andythenorth will look in a bit 07:31:39 <andythenorth> even some functional testing would seem like a win 07:31:46 * andythenorth wonders about making test case newgrfs 07:31:59 <LordAro> wonder if a dedicated server would be good enough to run the game 07:32:04 <andythenorth> presumably an AI can be made to behave deterministically? 07:32:16 <LordAro> of course 07:32:25 <LordAro> especially when it's given the same save game 07:32:26 <andythenorth> and we can screenshot on deman 07:32:28 <andythenorth> demand * 07:32:48 <andythenorth> we use this a lot http://www.visualdiff.com 07:32:59 <LordAro> don't really need screenshots, can use the ai to query the gamestate 07:33:21 <andythenorth> I’m thinking about sprite regressions 07:33:25 <andythenorth> and newgrf features specifically 07:33:27 <LordAro> AIs should be able to get any information humans can by looking at the screen, remember 07:33:36 <LordAro> (functional informarion) 07:33:55 * andythenorth not trying to enforce a particular approach :) 07:33:58 <LordAro> sprite regressions... test it yourself and look at it? :p 07:34:02 <andythenorth> just trying to get a sense of what’s wise + possible 07:34:24 <andythenorth> gtg, bbl 07:34:25 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:34:29 <Wolf01> Sprite regressions might fail a lot in presence of glitches 07:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, flickering sprites because of unresolvable sprite sorter issues 07:37:39 <LordAro> screenshota won't catch that 07:51:31 <Wolf01> FFFFFFppsfdfs.... it's already friday 07:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and i'm calling in sick... 07:53:07 <LordAro> i should get to work 07:53:17 <Wolf01> I've achieved nothing this week, I should have meet my friends for a day at the beach and no one show 07:54:14 <Wolf01> Also, I'm totally fine with breaking the town growth to make _dp_ happy 07:54:47 <Wolf01> I could do it, maybe I'll provide a patch even today 08:12:52 *** orudge` has quit IRC 08:12:58 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 08:12:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 08:28:40 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:30:07 <_dp_> o/ 08:33:13 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 08:35:04 <Wolf01> I need to understand better this one GrowTownWithExtraHouse(t1, TileAddByDiagDir(house_tile, target_dir)); 08:35:23 <Wolf01> But I already made town grow houses on those angles 08:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what part do you not understand? 08:35:40 <Wolf01> target_dir 08:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (it 08:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> 's been ages since i looked at it) 08:36:12 <Wolf01> What could happen if I swap DiagDir with Direction 08:36:54 <Wolf01> I tried growing some cities in SE after swapping it and I don't see many problems 08:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> diagdir is for 8 angles (edges and corners), direction only for edges 08:37:24 <Wolf01> The contrary 08:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> err, right 08:38:10 <Wolf01> The function checks for distance from edge 08:38:27 <Wolf01> Also if the target tile is house or void 08:38:36 <Wolf01> And build the house 08:39:22 <_dp_> Wolf01, are you looking at https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6610 ? 08:39:26 <Wolf01> Yes 08:39:38 <_dp_> I found a bit of a bug in it yesterday, I'll post fix soon 08:39:44 <Wolf01> I think I could just check for DiagDir there 08:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: there exist some ancient patches that make towns build houses further away from the road 08:40:21 <Wolf01> It's no use to check for more than 3 tiles when building near edges 08:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can compare with those? 08:41:06 <Wolf01> If I don't understand what the vanilla code mean, I don't think I would understand it better with some ancient patch 08:41:22 <_dp_> building houses further is a bit too much of a deviation from current mechanics imo 08:41:54 <Wolf01> It already does it when replacing 2x2 houses ;) 08:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but about checking what functionality they touch, and whether it's the right way to do it 08:42:12 <_dp_> Wolf01, I know, but it's not very likely 08:42:43 <_dp_> in fact it can even walk-replace house to any distance, just chance of that is negligible 08:42:55 <Wolf01> Eddi, I know this, I already changed this code a bit for NRT, the problem is to avoid making more checks than required 08:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i touched this code ages ago, when i attempted making towns expand on slopes, instead of flattening everything 08:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which i seem to remember ended up as a one-line change 08:44:36 <Wolf01> Yes, this too 08:44:43 <Wolf01> Ok, 3 lines 08:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> putting a "random(1 in 6)" in front of the "flatten" command 08:45:49 <Wolf01> The problem is counting the neighbours, if I increment the directions I should increment the limit too 08:46:07 <Wolf01> But why should I need to increment the directions here? 08:46:44 <Wolf01> Also, if I already have the house tile, why does it adds twice the same direction? 08:47:28 <_dp_> Wolf01, that a weird part of town growh, with enabled roads it can add two houses in one tick 08:47:37 <_dp_> Wolf01, probably to fill gaps in 3x3 layout 08:47:52 <Wolf01> Could be 08:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that code exists 08:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> if 3 sides of the 3x3 grid are covered, it builds a house in the center 08:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (works also without grid) 08:51:27 <_dp_> I've no idea why it only does so with enabled roads but whatever, at least that allows do disable it :p 08:51:49 <peter1138> morning 08:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: probably a forgotten corner case when disabling roads was introduced 08:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think the extra house is older than that) 08:58:22 <Wolf01> Nice that if you don't allow towns to build roads they still don't give a fuck and build roads 08:58:25 <Wolf01> BUG! 08:58:56 <Wolf01> And that's with vanilla 1.7.1 08:59:01 *** orudge` has quit IRC 08:59:13 <Wolf01> I'm comparing the growth 08:59:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, wut, how did you get them to build roads? 08:59:30 <Wolf01> Try 08:59:35 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 08:59:36 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 09:00:00 <Wolf01> Scenario editor, build a road layout, fund a town 09:00:22 <Wolf01> So I should fix even that one... later 09:00:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, ah, SE 09:00:59 <Wolf01> After 2 clicks on "expand" it prompts you with "towns can't build roads, enable them in settings > blah" 09:04:12 *** cosmobird_ has joined #openttd 09:04:24 <Wolf01> It only does this when funding a town, if you delete all the houses and expand, no more roads 09:05:22 <_dp_> interesting... it checks twice whether layout allows house, once in GrowTownInTile and once in CheckTownBuild*House 09:05:53 <Wolf01> Expected behavior: build only the seed tile road if no road is found near the tile 09:06:12 <Wolf01> Current behavior: don't give a fuck about the setting value 09:07:20 <_dp_> so there is actually no bug in my patch since I only avoided one check 09:07:23 <_dp_> st 09:07:25 <_dp_> st 09:07:29 <_dp_> ops, sorry 09:07:52 <_dp_> still, should probably do it properly in case of some future changes 09:10:27 *** cosmobird has quit IRC 09:12:57 <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/w94pK 09:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'm afraid that change would also make starting a game with no roads enabled to only construct single road towns 09:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'd rather have a separate option in SE town creation window: empty/small/medium/large 09:13:43 <Wolf01> Yes, my thought too, maybe a check for SE? 09:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so empty would create a 0 house, 1 road town 09:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> leave the rest as is 09:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i need to get up and go to the doctor :/ 09:15:29 <_dp_> Wolf01, what's up with right picture, does it not work with newgrfs? 09:15:41 <Wolf01> 2 different games? 09:15:49 <Wolf01> I didn't set up the grfs on dev 09:16:12 <_dp_> Wolf01, ah, it's unpached 09:17:06 <Wolf01> I'm glad it built the stadium in the 2x2 area which vanilla leaves empty :P 09:20:28 * andythenorth thinks there might be quite a lot of SE feature requests 09:20:36 <andythenorth> I *never* use SE except to test patches 09:20:42 <andythenorth> so I can’t judge them 09:20:51 <andythenorth> probably some consistent themes there though 09:21:05 <Wolf01> Yes, and I have a lot more feature requests for SE 09:21:28 *** Defaultti has quit IRC 09:22:15 <Wolf01> Also in all my tests no house was built in the middle tile of the 3x3 grid 09:22:32 <Wolf01> Not a single one 09:22:39 *** Defaultti has joined #openttd 09:22:39 <Wolf01> Only 2x2 houses 09:22:57 <_dp_> Wolf01, do you test with roads enabled? 09:23:01 <Wolf01> Yes 09:23:07 <Wolf01> Building a 3x3 grid 09:23:57 <Wolf01> I'm cheching if by a chance the edit I've done breaks the layout 09:24:06 <_dp_> hm, I remember testing it long ago and it worked fine 09:24:12 <andythenorth> so many combinatorial things to test :P 09:24:49 <andythenorth> 4 road layout algorithms 09:25:11 <andythenorth> towns allowed to build roads or not 09:25:12 <_dp_> yeah, would be very nice to have some automatic tests for town growth... so many different cases 09:25:20 <andythenorth> town growth speed 09:25:46 <andythenorth> maybe Pikka was right, we should have done newgrf towns 09:25:52 <_dp_> gladly growth speed doesn't rly matter) 09:25:55 <andythenorth> it got bounced because ‘do it in GS' 09:26:00 <andythenorth> but GS is a shit solution for it 09:26:08 <andythenorth> road layout should be a newgrf thing 09:26:43 <Wolf01> I should change the checs 09:26:45 <Wolf01> échecks 09:26:50 <andythenorth> we should burn some of it down 09:26:57 * andythenorth getting ahead of self 09:27:03 <Wolf01> Vanilla works fine 09:27:21 <andythenorth> placement checks are 100% something that newgrf could have handled 09:27:25 <andythenorth> road layouts....dunno 09:27:34 <Wolf01> I removed the grfs just to check 09:27:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, placement check includes layout check 09:31:09 <andythenorth> also signals should have gone to newgrf 09:31:19 <andythenorth> there is no reason for base game to provide semaphore vs. colour light 09:31:34 <andythenorth> combinatorial crap 09:32:30 <andythenorth> more cattle, fewer pets 09:34:11 <andythenorth> canals should go from base game 09:34:15 <andythenorth> watertypes spec 09:34:18 <andythenorth> keep rivers 09:34:45 <andythenorth> this is completely impossible of course :) 09:34:49 <andythenorth> because savegames 09:35:48 <Wolf01> Convert all semaphores to light signals unless you have a grf loaded? 09:36:12 <andythenorth> data migration? 09:36:20 <andythenorth> signaltypes 09:36:30 <Wolf01> Saveload already does stuff, why not? 09:36:55 <andythenorth> works when there is a valid A -> B type conversion I guess 09:37:02 <Wolf01> And you don't need to make new savegames to load on older versions 09:37:28 <andythenorth> I would apply “reduce features, increase moddability, repeat” to OpenTTD 09:37:39 <Wolf01> He 09:37:40 <andythenorth> 1 and only 1 way provide built-in 09:37:50 <andythenorth> but configuration points exploitable by newgrf and GS 09:37:57 <andythenorth> and I would probably adjust GS somewhat 09:38:38 <andythenorth> and I would change the savegame promise from ‘perfect replica of your TTO game' 09:38:48 <andythenorth> to “doesn’t actually get corrupted" 09:39:15 <Wolf01> +1 09:41:56 *** orudge` has quit IRC 09:42:26 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 09:42:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 09:46:29 <_dp_> ok, I'm done with that patch, except for one redundant line it's perfectly fine 09:46:37 <_dp_> no bugs found no nothing :/ 09:48:57 <andythenorth> :) 09:50:00 <andythenorth> bbl 09:50:03 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 09:51:26 <_dp_> anyway, unless it's something big nobody will notice a change in town growth xD 09:53:44 <Wolf01> Why do you check for the corners and don't just try to build a house in all 8 directions instead of the previous 4? 09:54:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, it will drastically change probabilities for choosing house spots 09:54:44 <_dp_> since some spots will be accessible from different number of tiles 09:55:15 <Wolf01> Yes, as far as I can understand your code, when you hit a corner you always build a house there 09:56:08 <_dp_> Wolf01, no, there is a random check, it's a bit hacky but gives equal probability with other spots 09:56:22 <Wolf01> I made it so you can build houses diagonally even on U turns 09:56:40 *** orudge` has quit IRC 09:56:43 <_dp_> if ((cur_rb & ROAD_X) != target_rb) return; 09:57:00 <_dp_> considers one of road bits as random for corner tile 09:57:05 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 09:57:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 09:58:21 <_dp_> Wolf01, you mean U turn like with two road turns, not just road dead-end? 09:58:27 <_dp_> Wolf01, what's wrong with that? 09:58:34 <Wolf01> Even the dead end 09:59:06 <_dp_> hm.. that shouldn't work 09:59:18 <Wolf01> Why not? 10:00:53 <_dp_> Wolf01, single roadbit usually means unfinished road, it's quite annoying when towns start to build houses around it 10:01:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, I even had special road tool in cm client before that was changed 10:01:33 <_dp_> Wolf01, that build roads without half-tiles 10:04:49 <_dp_> Wolf01, though, did you make it so it can build on corners of u-turns but not in 4-adjacent tiles? 10:04:59 <_dp_> Wolf01, that's fine, I guess, just weird 10:05:32 <_dp_> Wolf01, can you post an image actually coz I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here 10:06:21 <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/w94pK 10:06:55 <Wolf01> Ok, the bottom right one is "valid" 10:07:36 <_dp_> ok, I got it now, I was thinking of completely different thing (one roadbit aka half-road tile) 10:07:46 <Wolf01> TileIndex house_tile = TileAddByDir(tile, RandomDir()); // position of a possible house <- I changed only this line 10:08:04 <Wolf01> RandomDir() instead of RandomDiagDir() 10:08:13 <Wolf01> (I made also the RandomDir function) 10:08:49 <_dp_> but on that picture I'm more worried about houses that are build straight on the end of road 10:08:54 <Wolf01> I would look at the checks to avoid blocking building roads in original and better layouts... on grids already works 10:09:25 <Wolf01> I think that's because I disabled road building by towns, so they just put houses everywhere 10:11:12 <Wolf01> No, it's missing a check 10:11:27 <Wolf01> Vanilla leaves that empty 10:11:28 <_dp_> well, that super annoying feature imo 10:11:38 <_dp_> for anyone who builds layouts manually 10:12:03 <_dp_> and it still can mess up automatic layouts 10:13:57 <_dp_> awful in competitive cb either 10:14:23 <_dp_> you can't just go and destroy house in cb, that's a huge setback 10:17:11 *** mescalito has joined #openttd 10:18:59 <Wolf01> Automatic layouts work, now I must fix the original ones 10:20:02 <Wolf01> Meh, even worse 10:24:20 <_dp_> I though of doing 8-tile random when I just started that patch but scrapped that idea pretty fast 10:24:38 <_dp_> except for adding houses in corner it changes a lot of other stuff and none of it in a good way 10:25:03 <Wolf01> Right 10:26:37 <Wolf01> With Direction you need to check in 2 more directions for the second tile and not just the next one 10:32:39 <NGC3982> i wrote last night about cement not being transportable with ecs while in early games. i found an old bug that was properly reported, but a very long time ago. do you know if its solved by configuration or something else? 10:34:58 <_dp_> NGC3982, I think cement is transportable on our ecs quest server but that's LL heritage, I've no idea how it works) 10:35:52 <NGC3982> i see 10:36:15 <NGC3982> i just noticed in a single player game and havent looked any further, unfortunately 10:37:23 <_dp_> NGC3982, there should be something in newgrfs that fixes it: https://www.openttd.org/en/server/102103 10:38:27 <Wolf01> Is there a way to rotate a diagdir? 10:39:51 <Wolf01> I mean, I have NW direction and converting it to diagdir results in N, I want W too 10:41:39 <_dp_> Wolf01, diagdir is a single direction you probably want something else then 10:41:55 <_dp_> roadbits will do probably 10:43:32 <NGC3982> _dp_: i notice that the bug seems to depend on basic vector ii. interestingly enough, that server uses an older version than me. 10:44:10 <NGC3982> ill try the old one and see if the problem remains. 10:44:26 <_dp_> NGC3982, yeah, it's an ancient server :) 10:44:59 <_dp_> NGC3982, it also has some hacks like universal wagons iirc 10:45:33 <NGC3982> i see 10:51:35 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 10:52:22 *** Geth has joined #openttd 10:57:33 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC 11:11:05 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 11:29:12 <__ln___> greetings again from the austro-hungarian empire 11:30:10 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 11:31:13 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:31:59 <__ln___> austria is like germany, but with support for credit cards 11:32:25 <Wolf01> Lol 11:32:27 <Wolf01> Hi 11:32:31 <andythenorth> hi 12:05:31 <peter1138> hmm 12:05:37 <peter1138> need a new mobile phone 12:05:39 <peter1138> dunno what to get 12:05:50 <andythenorth> there is phone, or there is Android 12:05:59 <andythenorth> I just buy phone, which has a fruit logo on it 12:06:04 <peter1138> yeah not getting an iphone 12:06:20 <andythenorth> I get whichever one the carrier gives me, then I don’t have to blame myself for the choice 12:06:26 <andythenorth> zero-regret strategy 12:06:36 <peter1138> i don't have a carrier 12:08:20 <peter1138> i had a virgin mobile payg sim in 1999 12:08:31 <peter1138> but lost that a couple of years ago 12:08:50 <andythenorth> everyone else I know seems to buy Samsung 12:08:54 <andythenorth> dunno what it means 12:10:35 <LordAro> people keep talking about wileyfox 12:12:24 <Wolf01> I can't understand people... "how do i make VS recognize ///< comment as a doxygen comment and not xml?" "put a \ before the <"... "maybe without changing the code?" 12:13:11 <andythenorth> can VS not learn language semantics? :P 12:13:31 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 12:14:01 <Wolf01> VS defaults to xml when /// is used because it can create the documentation by itself 12:15:23 <andythenorth> why are timetables? 12:15:34 <andythenorth> they are the spawn of the devil as far as OpenTTD goes 12:15:42 <andythenorth> someone convince me they have a purpose? o_O 12:15:57 <Wolf01> I'm not able to use them 12:16:11 <FLHerne> You need them to make your non-full-load vehicles not clump 12:16:13 <Wolf01> I only find downsides when I try 12:16:24 <andythenorth> they don’t actually work 12:16:29 <andythenorth> they’re broken 12:16:31 <FLHerne> They're about the most cumbersome and unsuitable way to do that, but eh 12:16:42 <andythenorth> I was going to file a bug report, but I was told that what I was reporting was expected behaviour 12:16:53 <FLHerne> Hm? 12:17:06 <andythenorth> there is some magic hotkey which is supposed to space the vehicles out, magically 12:17:14 <andythenorth> but it flat out doesn’t work for ships 12:17:15 <FLHerne> With the new-ish auto-start-dates, and tweaking up the duration so everything's not always late, they work 12:17:40 <peter1138> needs constant micromanaging 12:17:42 <FLHerne> Oh, I think I've noticed that 12:17:57 <FLHerne> (usually not enough ships on a route for it to make any particular difference) 12:18:04 <FLHerne> Why? 12:18:10 <andythenorth> eh, back channel chat is naughty 12:18:14 <andythenorth> but most of this is just wrong https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1190780#p1190780 12:18:30 <andythenorth> control pax/cargo production: newgrf 12:18:40 <andythenorth> control population growth: should be newgrf 12:18:42 <FLHerne> Worth noting he's got his own timetable patch, which is actually sane 12:18:48 <andythenorth> station rating: newgrf 12:18:53 <FLHerne> If you're the kind of person who wants micromanaged timetables 12:19:18 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 12:19:19 <andythenorth> I don’t disagree with his game goals 12:19:21 <FLHerne> (whereas the current version is pretty useless either for micromanaging or just-working) 12:19:26 <andythenorth> well I do, but not virulently 12:19:30 <peter1138> i was asking a few months ago but nobody could explain timetables and what these patches do 12:19:43 <andythenorth> I disagree virulently with source code adjustments to make a particular play style 12:20:21 <andythenorth> it’s every kind of wrong 12:20:42 <andythenorth> peter1138 timetables /\o/\ meh 12:21:07 <peter1138> i never managed to make the current timetables do anything useful 12:21:28 <andythenorth> I use sometimes ‘wait for 10 days’ when starting buses or ships on a route 12:21:34 <andythenorth> because they’re too big for full load 12:21:38 <andythenorth> in small towns 12:22:02 <FLHerne> <andythenorth> control pax/cargo production: newgrf <- does FIRS have a parameter for that now? 12:22:52 <FLHerne> Atm I have a patch for that, because "fix it with a newgrf" only helps if you didn't already override all the behaviour with another one 12:23:02 <Wolf01> TF tries to send new vehicles to all the stations when starting multiple vehicles, trying to keep the separation and a coherent waiting time for cargo 12:23:04 <andythenorth> you have to fork the newgrf 12:23:11 <andythenorth> mods should be widely forked 12:23:11 <FLHerne> Well, yes 12:23:37 <andythenorth> like SPI, and Auz Industries, and Leif stopped bothering me with suggestions I wouldn’t do and forked a Norwegian FIRS 12:23:44 <andythenorth> that’s the go 12:24:00 <FLHerne> And forking a huge newgrf for orthogonal minor tweaks is better than having an option? 12:24:27 <andythenorth> well 12:24:32 <FLHerne> Different industries is different 12:24:57 <andythenorth> I have three different views on this, and they’re not incompatible 12:25:00 <FLHerne> I mean, if the point of your grf is to add industries, and you want different industries, of course you want a different grf 12:25:18 <andythenorth> 1. FIRS provides _some_ control over production via the supplies boost parameter 12:25:22 <andythenorth> 2. fork it 12:25:28 <FLHerne> But the base amount of cargo you want isn't really tied to any industry grf 12:25:34 <FLHerne> Hey, different idea 12:25:43 <andythenorth> 3. there should be a set of Economy methods in GS 12:26:13 <andythenorth> the Economy methods in GS should dump an economy level byte onto each house or industry tile 12:26:20 <FLHerne> Eh, GS is an even worse solution to anything 12:26:31 <andythenorth> newgrf should be able to optionally use that for production 12:26:44 <FLHerne> Because you can have exactly one, and creating n^2 scripts would be insane 12:26:53 <andythenorth> well GS is broken currently 12:26:56 <FLHerne> (more than) 12:26:59 <andythenorth> make a counter proposal? 12:27:40 <FLHerne> Just have a multiplier, either for production or vehicle capacity... 12:27:50 <andythenorth> in the newgrf? 12:27:59 <FLHerne> Stick it in a newgrf var like the base costs if it makes people happy 12:28:02 <FLHerne> No, in the game 12:28:23 <andythenorth> right 12:28:33 <andythenorth> and, then...? 12:28:39 <andythenorth> throw away newgrf production control? o-O 12:28:40 <FLHerne> Because there's not really any relation between newgrf industry strategies and the player's network-design preferences 12:28:42 <andythenorth> or something else? 12:29:31 <FLHerne> No, literally just a multiplier on top of whatever the newgrf says 12:29:37 <FLHerne> I guess that might break strings 12:29:45 <andythenorth> do you know how newgrf production works? o_O 12:29:51 <FLHerne> Well, not break, but make-inaccurate 12:29:56 <andythenorth> a multiplier could be done 12:30:00 <andythenorth> but it would be a car crash 12:30:11 <FLHerne> <reads spec> 12:30:21 <andythenorth> you have three places to deal with production 12:30:27 <andythenorth> also two text callbacks 12:30:30 <andythenorth> iirc 12:30:49 <FLHerne> Would mess up balancing, so <or vehicle capacity> was the better idea probably 12:30:53 <andythenorth> you also have to factor in existing newgrfs that have concepts like refusing acceptance 12:31:09 <andythenorth> and limited total production reserves for mines etc 12:31:33 <andythenorth> vehicle capacity factor is interesting 12:31:38 <andythenorth> but why do it in the game? 12:32:12 <NGC3982> has there ever been any discussion on adding weather to ottd? 12:32:20 <andythenorth> yes :D 12:32:25 <andythenorth> let’s discuss that 12:32:48 <FLHerne> Because otherwise every newgrf needs to add such a parameter (or users will grumble, or locally patch their preferred newgrf or the game) 12:33:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne: it would save me doing it in all my newgrfs yes 12:33:38 <andythenorth> I can’t see many downsides, except it would “need” to be implemented both globally, and on a per-grf basis 12:33:44 <andythenorth> and maybe on a per-company basis in MP 12:33:46 <FLHerne> My general thought is that if something would be relevant to essentially all newgrfs of the type, it makes sense to have a global setting 12:33:54 <_dp_> I understand "should be mod" thing but not in case of newgrfs, newgrs are terrible for any king of logic or configuration 12:34:14 <andythenorth> yes 12:34:18 <andythenorth> that’s what GS is for 12:34:22 <andythenorth> or admin port 12:34:34 <andythenorth> GS is unusable of course 12:34:38 <FLHerne> Otherwise you change the parameters for some grfs and it unbalances everything because they don't have quite the same effect 12:35:01 <_dp_> yeah, they are kind of better suited except they can't do shit 12:35:30 <andythenorth> nobody wants to make the platonic perfect one-GS-to-rule-them-all 12:35:35 <andythenorth> so it’s not really used 12:35:54 <FLHerne> Would it be possible to have GS's claim 'write' access for a specific segment of the API? 12:35:57 <andythenorth> AIs with a UI for commands would be better 12:36:27 <andythenorth> literally the AI has a defined interface for player-triggered actions 12:36:35 <andythenorth> with appropriate buttons in the GUI 12:36:37 <FLHerne> e.g. you could have a GS that asked set town growth, but promised not to do anything else 12:36:46 <_dp_> It's mostly same with newgrfs, eg you can't have two newgrfs tweaking same industry so you eventually had to do one mega-grf 12:36:54 <FLHerne> That way you could add orthogonal GSs 12:36:57 <andythenorth> so much of this crap could be scripted 12:37:06 <andythenorth> like this ‘go to depot and sell’ thing 12:37:10 <andythenorth> that’s just an AI task 12:37:14 <FLHerne> Yeah, but at least you can have many newgrfs that do different things 12:37:25 <andythenorth> company scripts 12:37:33 <andythenorth> scoped to company objects 12:37:51 <FLHerne> Whereas currently, you can have exactly one GS that does one thing, unless it's an insane megalunaticGS that does everything and the kitchen sink in an unmaintainable way 12:38:04 <andythenorth> it’s failed to win 12:38:13 <andythenorth> unlike newgrf, or even AI 12:38:16 <andythenorth> GS is a desert 12:38:58 <FLHerne> Well, there's no market for GSs that just do small clever tweaks 12:39:20 <andythenorth> well it would be an insane thing to do 12:39:23 <FLHerne> Because if you have a GS that just does a small clever tweak, that's your GS allotment 12:39:24 <andythenorth> who’s going to use them? 12:40:13 <FLHerne> Yeah 12:40:58 <_dp_> FLHerne, yeah, I thought of pretty much the same api claiming yesterday. though more in a context of some newgrf-like gs that's client-side 12:41:29 <_dp_> FLHerne, you also need ability to override claims of other mods though to be able to extend them 12:43:14 <andythenorth> or built-in isolation 12:43:23 <andythenorth> or it just breaks if you have conflicting GS 12:46:24 <andythenorth> doesn’t have to have a bureacracy layer 12:46:36 <andythenorth> if you load two newgrfs that mess with cargos, your game breaks 12:46:51 <andythenorth> players encounter this frequently, but no kittens die 12:47:04 <andythenorth> too much poka-yoke stops things shipping 12:47:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, aren't there enough change-newgrf-ingame bugs already? 12:47:58 <andythenorth> yes, but that’s a different point 12:48:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, idk, looks same too me, people click stuff and expect it to work 12:48:24 <andythenorth> they do 12:48:30 <andythenorth> very sensible goal they have 12:49:55 * andythenorth looks for FS to close 12:51:36 <_dp_> partial ordering seems to be fine for a bureacracy layer here 12:52:14 <_dp_> you specify what grfs you override and if game can't determine priorities for each api than setup is incompatible 12:52:35 <andythenorth> not sure how GS would reserve blocks of commands 12:52:39 <andythenorth> just reserve writes? 12:52:43 <andythenorth> dunno 12:52:49 <andythenorth> seems prone to a cluster fuck to me 12:53:05 <andythenorth> collaboration between plugins is usually a dead end 12:53:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, by api here I mean like newgrf callbacs not commands 12:53:20 <andythenorth> common solution is to put each plugin in a walled garden 12:53:47 <andythenorth> newgrf callbacks? o_O 12:53:50 <andythenorth> ?? 12:54:19 <andythenorth> is there some layer of control you think is missing _dp_ ? o_O 12:55:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, not sure what do you mean but I'm mostly talking here about some imaginary nwgrf-like logic done with gs)) 12:55:40 <andythenorth> what would it control? 12:56:19 <_dp_> andythenorth, same things newgrfs do, just more and better :) 12:56:30 <andythenorth> not sure what’s gained 12:56:41 <andythenorth> expand the idea? o_O 12:57:05 <andythenorth> is this for towns and industries, or everything or what? 12:57:32 <_dp_> well, it's pretty vague of an idea, haven't though it much, but I'll try 12:57:52 <_dp_> basically, replace newgrf logic part with GS 12:58:26 <_dp_> so you'll be able to program newgrf logic in squirrel 12:58:40 <andythenorth> what’s the upsides? 12:58:40 <_dp_> and let them somehow interact/reuse api of other grfs 13:00:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, having some sensible language in which you can write extensible code 13:00:44 <_dp_> also in this case I would probably want for server to be able to push such script on client 13:01:02 <_dp_> not a full grf with resources but just script 13:01:10 <andythenorth> probably better to call them mods here 13:01:13 <andythenorth> grf is too specific 13:01:24 <andythenorth> this would be a proposal to abolish newgrf? 13:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> man, trips to the doctor always take foreeever 13:02:44 <_dp_> andythenorth, not necessarily abolish, just overhaul logic part. probably could be even done in a backwards compatible way 13:03:30 <andythenorth> hmm 13:03:55 <andythenorth> I think there’s a scripting gap, but I’m not sure what porting newgrf to squirrel gains us? 13:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> probably nothing but trouble 13:04:21 <andythenorth> let the idea run 13:04:50 <_dp_> btw, how is complex logic currently done in grf. like finding distance to nearest water tile? is there some kind of programming language in nml? 13:05:07 <_dp_> or is it mostly hacks? 13:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you rip people out of their "perfectly fine" existing development environment, while at the same time critical functionality will be missing in the new one 13:05:19 <andythenorth> it’s a defined API 13:05:28 <andythenorth> it’s not complex logic 13:05:52 <andythenorth> callback -> vars -> conditions -> results 13:06:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, so openttd core does the search? 13:06:07 <andythenorth> depends 13:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the problem is that squirrel and grf are based on two fundamentally different mindset. squirrel (ai/gs) is a program that interacts with the game through commands, while grf is a set of callbacks that get interacted with by the game 13:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: so one is active, the other one passive 13:06:21 <andythenorth> if there’s a var providing what you need, openttd gets it 13:06:35 <andythenorth> if there’s no var, you have to create your own checks using the vars you do have 13:07:16 <milek7> we can have callbacks in squirrel, too 13:07:21 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, by gs here I just mean squirrel language, doesn't even have to be squirrel any other decent one will do 13:07:44 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, ofc server-side command-controlling part has nothing to do with it 13:08:31 <_dp_> milek7, in current GS callbacks aren't that useful 13:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: maybe, but it would just be another layer on top, instead of the existing deeply integrated callbacks 13:08:50 <_dp_> milek7, they are more like notifications 13:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and some of the callbacks are performance critical 13:10:25 *** debdog has quit IRC 13:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and you will not resolve the difference that squirrel is an interpeted language, while grf is a bytecode language 13:11:48 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 13:12:08 <milek7> what that changes? 13:12:25 <milek7> squirrel is probably also compiled to bytecode 13:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> performance 13:13:10 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's more of an implementation thing than a fundamental issue 13:13:20 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, java and c# seem to be decently fast 13:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and then we haven't even discussed how you get all the sprite data into your squirrel program 13:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: but "decent" still means a factor of 2 behind optimized native code 13:14:33 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, depends 13:14:45 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, there are cases when jit can do better 13:15:13 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, but I'm not a fan of java or c# either 13:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: lets not be too nitpicky about a random statement that might have been true 15 years ago when i heard about it :p 13:15:35 *** debdog has joined #openttd 13:18:19 <_dp_> btw, js is stupidly fast nowdays 13:18:38 <_dp_> I wish they put that effort in optimizing python instead xD 13:20:16 <milek7> i think 'mods' should be able to override almost any core function and poke at structures 13:20:20 <milek7> but it is hard to do without giving it ability to execute arbitrary code 13:20:23 * _dp_ has a random idea of integrating openttd with llvm 13:24:18 <milek7> PNaCl for openttd? ;p 13:24:43 <_dp_> milek7, WebAssembly :p 13:29:24 <FLHerne> _dp_: ISTR that the newgrf sprite callbacks are a large proportion of the rendering time already 13:29:39 <FLHerne> (I think it's in the thread with cirdan's SSE blitters?) 13:30:54 <andythenorth> there is an impression that a large proportion of time is spent resolving sprites 13:31:02 <andythenorth> and in many cases they can’t be cached because newgrf 13:31:07 <andythenorth> this may or may not be FUD 13:31:12 <andythenorth> I’ll see if I can find the post 13:31:38 <_dp_> I know for sure one of my zoning patches lags like crazy on callbacks, but for vanilla idk 13:31:52 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=58021 13:32:22 <andythenorth> Train::GetImage 13:35:01 * andythenorth is fairly confident that the problem with scripting isn’t because of the choice of language 13:35:08 <_dp_> why on earth does newgrf require a logic there 13:35:19 <andythenorth> guess? 13:35:27 <_dp_> I mean I have and idea why but that seems a poor api choice to me 13:35:37 <andythenorth> that horse bolted 13:35:51 <FLHerne> _dp_: Because having different sprites for trains is sort of the one fundamental newgrf thing? :P 13:36:21 <andythenorth> it wasn’t obviously fundamental that we had to animate them 13:36:30 <andythenorth> that choice could have been made differently 13:36:34 <_dp_> FLHerne, yeah, but shouldn't it be more of a "set sprite" api than "quick, what sprite do we need to show"? 13:36:34 <andythenorth> for performance reasons 13:36:45 <FLHerne> (and changing them based on unpredictable conditions is used for all sorts of things like tilting and extra-long multi-vehicle carriages and...) 13:36:46 <andythenorth> _dp_: they’re equivalent? 13:36:51 *** debdog has quit IRC 13:37:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, not in terms of speed :p 13:37:03 <andythenorth> eh>? 13:37:10 <andythenorth> how do you know which sprite to set? 13:37:35 <FLHerne> _dp_: Yeah, but the union of variables used by any train newgrf to pick a sprite is going to be "all of them" 13:37:53 <_dp_> andythenorth, if you mean animations then take animating logic out of grf, let grf just set animation sequence 13:38:11 <FLHerne> So you need to redo the logic every time anything changes, which is every tick anyway 13:38:41 <andythenorth> _dp_: I would have banned animation even 13:38:44 <_dp_> though honestly I know way too little about newgrfs to seriously propose anything here 13:38:47 <andythenorth> and only change sprites on triggers 13:38:56 <andythenorth> like load / unload 13:38:59 <andythenorth> but no 13:39:14 <andythenorth> we must for authors have ability to change sprites on totally arbitrary conditions 13:39:51 <andythenorth> like age of vehicle, current speed, current reliability, tracktype, slope value, corner value, month of year etc 13:40:26 <FLHerne> How else will you know when the wagons ought to have snow piled on them? 13:40:51 <supermop_> i randomly change exhaust pipes based on groups of probabilities based on build year 13:41:04 <supermop_> was a lot of work and you can't even really notice 13:41:04 <_dp_> pfff, yeah, now I get the drift... 13:41:14 <andythenorth> or if the slug is hungry 13:41:28 <supermop_> also change cab livery based n if you buy vehicle in the preview period 13:41:31 <andythenorth> could have just been done on triggers 13:41:45 <andythenorth> then cached until next trigger 13:41:52 <supermop_> which was supposed to be an easter egg but i dont think anyone would notice 13:41:57 *** debdog has joined #openttd 13:42:05 <supermop_> those are all done at vehicle purchase though 13:42:26 <_dp_> slug eats cpu and he still is hungry? :/ 13:43:10 <andythenorth> if the sprite chain was just action 3 -> action 1 then we’d be laughing 13:43:16 <andythenorth> but no, we have varact 2 for fun 13:45:44 <andythenorth> bbl 13:45:45 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 13:47:42 <_dp_> if game starts to lag skip more getimage calls and use last value 13:51:20 <_dp_> basically, gradual degradation instead of optimization 13:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the tricky part about skipping things is that they might be gamestate relevant, and thus desync 13:55:24 <FLHerne> That would cause very odd appearance when going around corners 13:56:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but GetImage doesn't seem to be gamestate relevant. or rather it shouldn't be 13:57:01 <_dp_> do newgrfs even have an internal state? 13:57:15 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 13:57:50 <_dp_> I guess there is some newgrf storage in savegames 13:57:59 <_dp_> but can't think of any grf that uses it 13:58:33 *** cHawk has quit IRC 13:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there are "parameters" that can be changed during initialisation, but not runtime. and then there are item-dependent permanent storage, and each callback has temporary storage 13:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (temporary storage is discarded after the callback ran) 14:00:00 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 14:02:53 <NGC3982> for a person well endowed in the perks of irc, its puzzling that andy still do that quit/join thing. 14:04:20 *** Arveen has quit IRC 14:04:47 *** Arveen has joined #openttd 14:05:24 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 14:05:37 *** cosmobird_ has quit IRC 14:06:08 *** synchris has joined #openttd 14:13:03 <planetmaker> _dp_, there's permant storage. E.g. industry newgrfs make use of that for production. Or houses for deciding looks 14:13:30 <planetmaker> industries is as such game-critcal 14:21:48 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 14:22:26 *** JGR_ has joined #openttd 14:22:41 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 14:27:29 <andythenorth> lo planetmaker 14:28:41 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 14:30:20 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:30:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 14:32:24 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 14:33:18 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 14:33:45 <planetmaker> o/ :) 14:34:11 <V453000> yo humenz 14:37:44 *** Cubey has quit IRC 14:38:52 <Alberth> o/ 14:43:48 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 14:44:21 <V453000> this weekend I hope to finish my palette converter > 14:44:22 <V453000> :> 14:44:28 <andythenorth> such hopes 14:44:40 <V453000> big 14:44:59 * andythenorth sat in van-office 14:45:03 <andythenorth> watching weather 14:45:29 <V453000> :) 14:46:55 <andythenorth> V453000 sensible family car https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f8/99/a7/f899a7120c82369c4061f7b98ab4a49a.png 14:46:58 <andythenorth> also current office :P 14:47:05 <andythenorth> not actually mine, I don’t have big alloys 14:47:13 <V453000> sounds nice 14:47:26 <andythenorth> has 240v power 14:47:27 <V453000> the problem is that when you buy a car like this then family is going to be packing a lot of shit without restraints 14:47:33 <andythenorth> happens anyway 14:47:43 <V453000> and you are going to be the one who carries it into the car every weekend from 4th floor back and forth :D 14:47:58 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 14:48:02 <V453000> is why I'm excusing myself for having a smaller car 14:48:13 <V453000> why/how 14:50:11 <andythenorth> also got https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-expressandstar-mna.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5DN7FDSMCVB57HDLST4OXA4UQE 14:50:12 <andythenorth> super small 14:53:17 *** debdog has quit IRC 14:54:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 14:55:10 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 14:56:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if you're still interested in cities skylines, it's currently -75% on steam 14:56:45 <Wolf01> Good 14:56:59 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 14:57:19 <Wolf01> I should purchase the bundle 14:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the bundle still misses the 2 or 3 latest dlcs 14:58:11 <Wolf01> Noticed 14:58:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to play ‘close the tickets'? 14:58:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has proved we can’t win that game ever, but eh 14:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it might still be worth playing "unwinnable" games for a while 14:58:57 <peter1138> £23!? 14:58:59 <peter1138> ffs 14:59:12 <peter1138> is the base game no good? 14:59:30 <andythenorth> peter1138, yes £23! that is how much a laptop stand costs for a ford transit 14:59:36 <andythenorth> funny you mentioned it 14:59:56 <supermop_> sounds cheap 14:59:57 <peter1138> errr 15:00:25 <supermop_> feel like only a commercial user would want a laptop stand in a commercial van 15:00:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 15:00:33 *** debdog has joined #openttd 15:00:37 <supermop_> so they'd be able to gouge the price a bit 15:00:48 <supermop_> or worse - a government customer 15:00:50 <andythenorth> it’s actually £231 15:00:59 <andythenorth> or so 15:01:04 <supermop_> still sounds cheap for govt use 15:01:05 <V453000> iz win 15:01:09 <V453000> allowing colours works :> 15:02:05 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5640 ?? 15:02:23 <peter1138> colouring? rgb company colours? 15:02:51 <JGR_> Reading up a bit on the GRF GetImage() discussion above, it is possible to cache the result in most cases, in a way that removes the performance problem for most GRFs. There is a (somewhat hacky) patch in my patchpack which does this. 15:03:23 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:04:03 <andythenorth> how do you do it? 15:04:09 <andythenorth> or do I have to read the patch? :) 15:05:11 <andythenorth> so do we need hyperlinks on buy menu for vehicles? 15:05:23 <andythenorth> and if so, can we have them for industries also? 15:05:29 <andythenorth> and maybe houses, on get info? 15:05:37 <andythenorth> also town names, if they’re real 15:05:51 <supermop_> can i make a newgrf thaat some how scams peoples credit cards? 15:05:59 <andythenorth> yes, but not easily 15:06:12 <supermop_> squid ate phishing link 15:06:12 <andythenorth> however we could with newgrf hyperlinks 15:06:18 <andythenorth> simple 15:06:26 <andythenorth> “click here to upgrade this vehicle” 15:06:29 <supermop_> +1 for feature 15:06:31 <andythenorth> then take credit card details 15:06:36 <andythenorth> then run away 15:06:41 <andythenorth> really easy 15:06:54 <JGR_> https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/commit/3ac94e97c8eb05e2a767ce5c0267a268e9e12145 and https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/commit/d733955d3325d7f233fadf0b3b214b6f6162d4c4 are the commits 15:07:01 <andythenorth> also simple griefing 15:07:26 <andythenorth> it’s a CB, so I could change the url arbitrarily 15:07:35 <andythenorth> such fun 15:07:46 <andythenorth> so that one stays open then 15:07:49 <andythenorth> such important feature 15:07:57 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 15:07:59 <andythenorth> changing the hotkeys? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5592 15:08:11 <JGR_> If I remember rightly, it checks which variables are checked in the varaction2, and if they're all on a whitelist and there are no callbacks the sprite ID is cached 15:08:31 *** orudge` has quit IRC 15:08:54 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 15:08:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 15:08:58 * andythenorth wonders 15:09:05 <andythenorth> won’t changing the hotkeys kind of piss people off? 15:09:14 <andythenorth> is there no way to over-ride them per player? 15:13:54 <_dp_> andythenorth, can change them in hotkeys.cfg 15:14:00 <andythenorth> hmm 15:14:25 <andythenorth> I am trying to find an objection to that :P 15:15:06 <andythenorth> nah, none 15:15:11 <peter1138> i did something with caching and it made it slower :p 15:15:31 <andythenorth> where are liveries in newgrf spec? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5631 15:16:01 <peter1138> cargo refits 15:16:06 <peter1138> subtypes 15:16:41 <andythenorth> so how does the union of available subtypes work then :| 15:16:44 <andythenorth> headfuck stuff 15:16:45 <peter1138> badly 15:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: (from memory) for each cargo there's a callback that defines the number of subtypes by repeatedly calling it with an increased number, and if it doesn't return a valid string it's the end of the list 15:19:42 <andythenorth> well it doesn’t work for George :) 15:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because the game calculates the intersection not the union 15:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> intersection by string-id 15:20:38 <andythenorth> well it’s not good enough 15:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you could calculate the union in the refit window, and when you select a non-universal subtype, then the selection at the top of the window could reflect this 15:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> by greying out or so 15:23:36 <andythenorth> also https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5847 15:23:50 <andythenorth> also https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5588 15:26:03 <V453000> which thing will the break break at line 6? :D https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p94zmvizo ... does it break just the if, or the whole for cycle starting on line2? 15:26:16 <V453000> actually it makes no sense to have it 15:26:17 <V453000> nvm 15:27:02 <andythenorth> also https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3764 15:29:06 <V453000> so with default settings (using all but noact colours, cc1 and cc2 are used) atm http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8560/test1.png vs http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8561/test1_8bpp_combined.png 15:29:39 <V453000> and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8559/test2.png vs http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8562/test2_8bpp_combined.png 15:30:34 <andythenorth> V453000: which one do you want me to say is better? o_O 15:30:40 <V453000> one is 32bpp 15:30:44 <V453000> the other is 8bpp 15:30:50 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:31:26 <andythenorth> should I prefer one to other? 15:31:35 <V453000> not necessarily 15:31:45 <V453000> just demonstrating current state of teh converter 15:31:50 <andythenorth> 32bpp is better currently 15:31:59 <andythenorth> but only because of light temperature 15:32:02 <V453000> now I can just go and say 'disable this specific colour in this specific image' 15:32:04 <V453000> yes 15:32:10 <V453000> getting those beige colours is damn hard 15:32:20 <V453000> also I didn't know my landscape has any colour XD 15:33:01 <andythenorth> seems it does 15:36:11 <andythenorth> subtypes 15:36:13 <andythenorth> such a cluster fuck 15:37:30 <andythenorth> V453000 how do you do liveries? 15:37:37 <andythenorth> with like, date-sensitivity, and stuff 15:37:42 <andythenorth> and changing by engine 15:37:54 <andythenorth> and also allowing refits of power and stuff by livery 15:37:56 <V453000> I do random colours 15:38:05 <andythenorth> yes, but that’s not realistic 15:38:08 <V453000> even random shapes for some wagons 15:38:13 <V453000> yeah exactly :) 15:38:14 <andythenorth> also not realistic 15:38:14 <Wolf01> Eddi, what does the deluxe edition contains? 15:38:16 <V453000> it's just nice 15:38:35 <andythenorth> V453000 I don’t think you’re even trying properly 15:39:16 *** Gja has joined #openttd 15:39:17 * andythenorth wonders how to give all the historical model railroad sets the liveries they so badly want 15:39:29 <andythenorth> subtypes are an absolute disaster of a hack 15:39:45 <andythenorth> but all alternatives seem to just be ‘subtypes, renamed' 15:40:01 <andythenorth> because o/c, the livery can’t just be the sprites 15:40:20 <andythenorth> it also has to affect buy cost, run cost, power, capacity, speed, cargo etc 15:40:24 <V453000> I think they should just randomize sprite upon purchase 15:40:24 <andythenorth> because reality 15:40:33 <V453000> XD OK 15:40:48 <V453000> well you can randomize some of those things upon purchase too 15:41:53 <andythenorth> this dumb shit bothers me 15:42:02 <andythenorth> like, it should have a decent solution 15:42:31 <V453000> livery with so many changes sounds to me like it should just be a different vehicle id 15:42:34 <V453000> why not that way? 15:44:32 <andythenorth> ah fuck knows 15:44:51 * andythenorth is actually depressed by this 15:45:19 *** Progman has joined #openttd 15:46:27 <andythenorth> such 1st world problems :) 15:47:17 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 15:47:26 <V453000> honestly I find this really dumb 15:47:33 <V453000> either it's just visual or it isn't 15:47:46 <V453000> if visual, randomize graphics or give them some other sense, purely graphically 15:47:53 <V453000> if not visual, have different ID 15:48:04 <andythenorth> nah all the shit has to be changed 15:48:07 <andythenorth> because...shit 15:48:16 <V453000> yeah that's the wrong approach 15:48:24 <andythenorth> yeah, but it’s the prevailing approach 15:48:36 <andythenorth> this isn’t being mean about any specific developer :P 15:48:44 <andythenorth> there are loads of people busy being wrong 15:48:59 <andythenorth> well 15:49:44 <andythenorth> there is nothing else to say 15:49:51 <andythenorth> :D 15:49:54 * andythenorth biab 15:49:56 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:55:48 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 15:59:16 <andythenorth> van office https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/36651461185/ 15:59:26 <andythenorth> and https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/36651460855/in/photostream/ 16:00:34 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 16:11:03 *** Gja has quit IRC 16:13:52 *** orudge` has quit IRC 16:13:53 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 16:13:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 16:20:22 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 16:21:01 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 16:22:04 <peter1138> hi 16:22:35 <LordAro> o/ 16:24:29 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 16:24:59 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 16:29:29 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 16:29:36 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:29:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 16:29:55 <andythenorth> is phone? 16:30:14 * andythenorth biab eh 16:30:24 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 16:36:24 *** Gja has joined #openttd 16:38:26 <V453000> :> disabled gray, mauve and the metallic gray https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8563/test2_8bpp_combined-nogray-nomauve-nometal.png 16:39:03 <V453000> next up: ability to enable/disable individual IDs 16:39:21 <V453000> now it uses some stringcodes for colours in all shades each 16:55:53 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 17:02:55 <V453000> aaaand explicitly allowed indexes 0-5 on top of disallowed grays, mauve, metal grays https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8564/test2_8bpp_combined-nogray-nomauve-nometal-allow-0-5.png 17:07:38 <LordAro> oops 17:07:43 <LordAro> just segfaulted ottd 17:07:48 <LordAro> probably shouldn't do that 17:11:38 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:12:45 <LordAro> oh wait, no, it segfaults trying to write the crash screenshot 17:12:49 <LordAro> amusing. 17:17:30 <Wolf01> I was thinking to move the global variables to a static class and make them private with accessors, but what could be the benefit? 17:17:42 <LordAro> very little 17:17:50 <LordAro> this isn't java 17:19:16 <LordAro> frosch123: quak 17:19:29 <Wolf01> Oh, quak 17:22:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:27:30 <andythenorth> :o 17:27:33 <andythenorth> bannon is out 17:27:38 * andythenorth doesn’t normally politics 17:32:54 <frosch123> who is bannon? 17:33:33 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 17:36:49 <frosch123> ah, another pawn 17:48:40 <andythenorth> apparently this wasn’t popular http://i1.wp.com/www.comedynewyork.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/BannonTrump.jpg 17:48:44 <andythenorth> with the leader of the free world 17:52:10 <frosch123> ah, i thought you need to fire someone whenever something else causes trouble 17:52:44 <andythenorth> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/36/f6/f6/36f6f631ea852fc2ed8e4f68320bf7e2.jpg 17:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that was 2000 years ago 17:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, probably not 17:54:27 <frosch123> did you attend personally? 17:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: was bannon the guy who owned this alt-right/fake-news site? 17:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and who now basically said he thinks the people using that site are crazy? 17:56:03 *** Gja has quit IRC 17:56:21 <LordAro> andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1200 heh 17:57:54 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: not far off 17:58:06 <glx> https://twitter.com/grantstern/status/898601902342119424/photo/1 17:58:28 <supermop_> he was an editor at a dubious 'news' site that is essentially all alt-right etc 17:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i said? 17:59:01 <supermop_> i don't know if he explicitly said that about those readers though, as he seemed to hold basically their beliefs as well 17:59:39 <supermop_> unless he said it very recently, which would be news to me 17:59:59 <supermop_> he always came across as a bit of a raving zealot himself 18:02:15 <andythenorth> LordAro: :P 18:02:16 <andythenorth> nogfx 18:03:47 <LordAro> frosch123: if you can investigate how farm.o.o is setup, that'd be much appreciated 18:04:02 <LordAro> i'd imagine it's just got an ancient version of ogfx hidden away somewhere 18:04:20 <supermop_> i worry though that removing the obvious zealot to replace with a discrete zealot won't be much of an improvement 18:04:23 <andythenorth> we don’t ship ogfx because...? 18:04:44 <LordAro> bandwidth, iirc 18:05:15 <frosch123> the installer can download ogfx 18:05:25 <LordAro> not from the commandline, afaict 18:05:53 <frosch123> also ottd can download it itself when starting without baseset 18:06:10 <LordAro> in fact, i'm not sure how to trigger bootstrap, i'm just getting a "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt." 18:06:17 *** Gja has joined #openttd 18:07:06 <frosch123> with "from the commandline" you mean starting a server without gui? 18:07:36 <LordAro> that's what i'm trying, i.e. `make regression` 18:08:52 <frosch123> can you download nogfx? 18:09:07 <LordAro> it doesn't exist? 18:10:06 <frosch123> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/798/nogfx-nogfx.tar 18:10:20 <LordAro> huh 18:10:30 <LordAro> that doesn't seem to be advertised anywhere 18:10:39 <frosch123> possible :) 18:11:22 <frosch123> maybe intentional, so dummies do not enable it via the gui, and can't figure out how to disable it again 18:11:32 <LordAro> well indeed 18:12:06 <frosch123> but you can also apt-get install openttd-opengfx 18:12:46 <LordAro> but i thought there was some sort of builtin bootstrap process? why can't i trigger that? 18:13:02 <frosch123> it only has a gui 18:13:18 <frosch123> it shows some window: you are about to download stuff from the internet 18:13:31 <frosch123> ottd is very data-conservative 18:13:36 <frosch123> it doesn't phone home 18:13:38 <LordAro> yeah, but i can't even run that locally 18:13:45 <LordAro> it just stops with the above error 18:13:49 <frosch123> it worked at some point :) 18:14:07 *** orudge` has quit IRC 18:14:19 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 18:14:20 <frosch123> it works for me 18:14:23 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 18:14:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 18:14:35 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 18:14:58 <Shoshonite> speaking of dummies, I have been compiling a newGRF and the number of orphaned sprites seems to increase by 1 everytime I compile. I am concerned my computer is caught to some terrible sprite death loop. Is this common? known? No observed conflicts yet 18:15:04 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 18:15:53 <frosch123> do you change the filename of your source graphics every time? 18:16:13 <Shoshonite> nope 18:16:32 <frosch123> orphaned sprites are sprites which were once used by the grf, but are no longer and the source has not been updated either 18:16:33 <Shoshonite> I was messing with sprite location in the source 18:16:55 <frosch123> ah, true, that also causes orphanes ones 18:17:21 <Shoshonite> andythenorth told me not to do it, but I dont listen well 18:17:22 <frosch123> it reencodes the sprites with new offsets, but keeps the old sprites with the old offsets in the cache 18:17:44 <frosch123> anyway, they will vanish once you change a single real pixel 18:18:20 <Shoshonite> cool, so this is more a TNG transporter spliting accident and less the dead away team members problem. 18:19:19 * andythenorth has never seen this issue :) 18:19:35 <andythenorth> let’s close some more FS 18:19:42 <andythenorth> while we all wait for my deliveroo to arrive 18:19:55 <frosch123> food? 18:20:15 <andythenorth> yes 18:20:28 <andythenorth> it is https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3821 18:20:30 <andythenorth> do we care? 18:20:40 <Shoshonite> food keeps the meatself alive = good 18:22:32 <LordAro> i can't say i've ever noticed the builtin cursor being slow 18:22:50 <LordAro> it's a purely SDL thing, iirc, so if they're having trouble with ottd they'll be having trouble with a load of other stuff as well 18:23:03 <LordAro> that said, it's not uncommon to have an option to use the OS cursor 18:23:32 <andythenorth> my cursor is slow 18:23:37 <andythenorth> I’m used to it :P 18:24:21 <andythenorth> can I close this as ‘wall of text’? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1269 18:24:23 <andythenorth> probably not 18:25:12 <LordAro> aircraft range has been implemented? 18:25:43 <frosch123> kind of, no idea whether someone plays with it 18:25:47 <frosch123> it's like airport noise 18:25:56 <LordAro> istr something using it 18:26:01 <LordAro> something pikka made, maybe? 18:26:09 <frosch123> yes, av8/9 does 18:26:26 <frosch123> no idea which version 18:26:40 <frosch123> possibly the newest one with the 3 planes 18:26:42 <Supercheese> airport noise is good feature 18:26:46 <Supercheese> airplane range is bad feature 18:27:25 <Supercheese> well, maybe only mediocre feature 18:27:27 <frosch123> LordAro: port to sdl2, use os cursor with our sprites 18:27:33 <LordAro> ;-; 18:28:10 <LordAro> ottd's rendering really doesn't port well to sdl2 18:30:08 <LordAro> https://circleci.com/workflow-run/8c336954-0e33-4501-8474-565c74c6e1da omg 18:31:49 <frosch123> that's a private link 18:31:56 <andythenorth> there’s some crap about needing special orders for aircraft range 18:31:57 <LordAro> interesting 18:32:02 <andythenorth> and a special visual display of it 18:32:07 <andythenorth> can I just close all that? 18:32:23 <andythenorth> Supercheese: I closed one of your FS suggestions I think :) 18:32:25 <LordAro> https://circleci.com/gh/LordAro/OpenTTD/tree/master how about this? 18:32:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: setting up aircraft orders is a pain 18:32:36 <Supercheese> yes, I believe you did 18:32:42 <Supercheese> and I believe I agreed 18:32:45 <andythenorth> I just click ‘go-to’ and choose an airport frosch123 :) 18:32:55 <andythenorth> Supercheese: you are in an ever-growing exclusive club ;) 18:33:28 <frosch123> LordAro: most seem to compile now, compared to yesterday 18:33:28 <Supercheese> the "There's a Patch for That™" club doesn't seem that exclusive :P 18:34:15 <frosch123> heh, the regression is apparently really fast if you do not need to scan 1400 grfs 18:36:19 <andythenorth> right 18:36:24 <andythenorth> this dies https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1700 18:36:36 <andythenorth> towns should have been newgrfed :) 18:36:49 <andythenorth> we don’t need so many town algorithms 18:40:22 <V453000> 0.0.3 plans: - migrate to blender, - rework postproduction pipeline, - redefine all sprites to different (more, smaller) filenames 18:40:28 <V453000> sounds like totally not redoing everyhing XD 18:40:56 <andythenorth> just redo everything 18:41:19 <supermop_> i like the suggestion to make plane crashes more spectacular 18:41:31 <V453000> haha mop 18:41:32 <supermop_> with fireball skidding down the runway 18:41:37 <andythenorth> it’s very low cost to like suggestions :) 18:41:48 <andythenorth> doesn’t make them likely to happen :) 18:42:40 <supermop_> plane crashes: reduced/none/all the time 18:42:58 <andythenorth> I just use the cheat 18:43:19 <supermop_> lets add planes crashing in mid air, or destroying property on the ground 18:43:48 <supermop_> or clipping the wings of other planes while taxiing to gate 18:44:05 <supermop_> wing clip should also result in fireball 18:44:32 <supermop_> also breakdowns should use the explosion instead of spark 18:44:41 <supermop_> smoke 18:45:16 <supermop_> ships exploding at sea for no reason 18:45:38 <andythenorth> I rejected rthat too 18:45:48 <supermop_> large ship has x% of crash when docking at small dock 18:46:00 <andythenorth> still true? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1813 18:46:17 <andythenorth> peter1138: ^ :D 18:48:23 <peter1138> 2? 18:48:25 <LordAro> doesn't that predate NoAI? 18:48:40 <andythenorth> NFI :) 18:50:56 *** orudge` has quit IRC 18:51:32 <peter1138> hmm 18:51:34 <peter1138> i wonder 18:51:44 <peter1138> probably never made it :p 18:51:48 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 18:51:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 18:53:55 <andythenorth> well OP doesn’t care 18:54:02 <andythenorth> probably just close it 18:54:05 * andythenorth thinks 18:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> cb18 for trains was never implemented 18:55:15 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 18:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> only for stations, i think 18:55:38 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 18:55:42 <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#AI_construction.2Fpurchase_selection_.2818.29 18:56:11 <andythenorth> so it’s TTDP only, or what? 18:56:14 <peter1138> i probably have a patch for it that'll never work because it predates noai 18:56:26 <andythenorth> sack it? Nobody cares 18:56:35 <peter1138> basically it tells the ai which is best 18:56:38 <peter1138> but who cares 18:56:41 <andythenorth> why would I even do that? 18:56:52 <andythenorth> stupid grf authors trying to control even what the AI builds? 18:56:53 <peter1138> i assume noais choose themselves 18:57:11 <peter1138> some sets have special ai-only vehicles 18:57:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: ais are the better players 18:57:16 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 18:57:18 <peter1138> so yeah, it won't work anyway 18:57:23 <frosch123> they can build historically correct consists 18:57:30 <peter1138> hehe 18:57:40 <andythenorth> ugh 18:57:53 * andythenorth welcomes our bot-based future civilisation 18:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the argument was always along the lines of "noai is more flexible, and real ais can figure this out from the stats anyway" 18:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but it would still be a useful hint, i think 18:58:41 <frosch123> yes, the problem only started when people claimed cb18 makes ais build R 19:00:09 <peter1138> it's pointless 19:00:33 <V453000> my ass isn't pointless, it has exactly 1 point 19:00:39 <peter1138> you'd need to rewrite any AI to use the feature as well 19:01:02 <peter1138> that's a singularity 19:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that would have been easier 5 years ago :p 19:01:26 <peter1138> andythenorth, close it as incompatible with noai 19:01:51 <peter1138> and i doubt oz gives a shit these days anyway 19:01:56 <V453000> XD 19:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why does Ctrl+F4 not close tabs in firefox? 19:02:13 <peter1138> ^w does 19:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> who chose that? 19:03:07 * andythenorth doesn’t actually think grf authors are stupid :D 19:03:18 <frosch123> did ctrl+f4 work past win 3.1? 19:03:42 *** Prof_Frink has quit IRC 19:03:49 <peter1138> andythenorth, who said they are? 19:04:03 <andythenorth> me 19:04:03 <V453000> I'm dumb as my ass 19:04:07 <peter1138> oh ok 19:04:16 <peter1138> it made sense with just one ai though 19:04:20 <peter1138> as a hint 19:04:23 <andythenorth> yup 19:04:26 <andythenorth> ancient history 19:04:29 <peter1138> yar 19:04:43 <andythenorth> probably the wiki is wrong eh 19:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i really don't remember... 19:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it was just the first key i tried 19:05:37 <andythenorth> what does it even mean? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2054 19:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and since ctrl+tab switches tabs, i thought crtl+f4 could close it 19:05:48 <andythenorth> doesn’t cb36 solve all this? 19:06:15 <V453000> ok idea, make everyhing red/orange/yellow 19:06:17 <peter1138> ^pgup / ^pgdn also does 19:06:23 <V453000> openttd has fucking amazing range of colours for that 19:06:31 <andythenorth> V453000: like a sunset? o_O 19:06:36 <V453000> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8560/test1.png https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8565/test1_8bpp_combined-even-weights.png 19:06:44 <V453000> can't really tell much difference in the fire parts 19:06:54 <andythenorth> V453000: Golden Hour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hour_(photography) 19:07:07 <V453000> that would require long shadows 19:07:10 <V453000> which means now 19:07:11 <V453000> no 19:07:11 <V453000> :> 19:07:29 <V453000> however fucking volcanic land of destruction with fire and lava everywhere isn't a bad idea 19:07:30 <V453000> gg 19:07:49 <V453000> btw you can see that the difference between the terrains is smaller now 19:07:55 <V453000> I changed the weights of colours 19:08:15 <V453000> had some dumb ass 'human eye correction' there which I believe doesn't work for shit 19:08:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: that's vehicles longer than 8/8 19:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: do you remember the mars expansion, where water was replaced with lava? 19:08:49 <frosch123> apparently it does not crash ttdp immediately 19:08:52 <frosch123> only if you know how 19:09:23 <V453000> of course Eddi I have played with it many times 19:09:35 <V453000> but the terrain itself isn't DEAD enough 19:10:42 <andythenorth> vehicles longer than 8/8 is…not good 19:10:45 <andythenorth> just no 19:11:09 <frosch123> V453000: maybe we need a april 1st grf, that swaps land with water sprites 19:11:20 <V453000> nice idea 19:11:24 <andythenorth> won’t implement for 2054? 19:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> finally a proper context for wetrails :p 19:11:50 <andythenorth> I didn’t ask many questions for that last 300 tickets I closed 19:11:58 <andythenorth> but now I’m into the legit / hard ones :) 19:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: negative values for "shorten vehicles" callback is definitely a no 19:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> plua, we have CETS now :p 19:13:01 <frosch123> lv5 was canceled because of that task 19:13:11 <frosch123> i think there was some drama 19:13:12 <V453000> CETS has graphics? :P 19:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> not that many :p 19:13:58 <frosch123> V453000: eddi did not use red/orange/yellow, so it was bound to fail 19:14:25 <V453000> obviously 19:15:15 <andythenorth> f8-ff overflows to negative? 19:15:25 <frosch123> in ttdp it does 19:15:32 * andythenorth is wading through this crap to try and close the ticket fairly 19:15:37 *** Gja has quit IRC 19:15:38 <andythenorth> clearly it’s dead as a dodo 19:15:54 <frosch123> then you park the train on a horizontal/vertical track, and remove a piece of track under train 19:15:57 <andythenorth> actually I’ll just paste the same as the other ~50 tickets like this 19:17:21 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 19:17:28 <LordAro> hmm 19:17:37 <LordAro> wonder if you can pull some sort of coverage data out of the regression tests 19:17:51 <andythenorth> there are tests? :O 19:18:47 <LordAro> as in, the ai regression thing 19:18:49 <andythenorth> err https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2081 19:18:50 <LordAro> it's sort of a test 19:18:50 <andythenorth> no? 19:19:02 <andythenorth> why would houses be allowed to modify road bits? 19:19:11 <andythenorth> I asked for ~identical feature once actually 19:19:55 <andythenorth> it’s a rejected pony https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=847034#p847034 19:19:58 <andythenorth> for exact same case 19:20:22 *** debdog has quit IRC 19:21:50 <andythenorth> the roadbit data isn’t provided by some 80+ var or something? 19:21:53 * andythenorth assumes not 19:23:09 <andythenorth> closed 19:27:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: is now a good time to post a bunch of FS for newgrf features? :| 19:27:37 <andythenorth> or should I save it up? 19:27:44 <LordAro> lol 19:27:50 <andythenorth> I want to mostly close them, but need to check I’m not being a fool 19:30:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am not a fan of adding newgrf features if noone is going to use/test it 19:30:53 <frosch123> also, i already have enough other patches 19:31:24 <V453000> it's not like I have yet utilized your awesome vehicle layers ;P 19:31:26 <V453000> iz on todo 19:31:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: but there is nothing wrong with grouping and colelcting stuff on some grfv10 page :p 19:32:24 <andythenorth> I don’t think we need this in the game https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2513 19:32:36 <andythenorth> (houses can refuse to accept cargo) 19:32:56 <andythenorth> I don’t see what this solves that can’t already be solved differently https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2079 19:33:08 <LordAro> https://i.imgur.com/6Y368IY.png that... is not as bad as i was expecting 19:33:14 <andythenorth> ^ I have made a crapload of building sprites, and they only get truncated or flicker when I do it wrong 19:33:15 <Alberth> +1 for close 2513 19:33:40 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5474 is meh 19:33:54 <andythenorth> I don’t hate it, it’s arguably consistent to let cb36 change *everything* 19:34:29 <andythenorth> how you ‘refurbish’ a vehicle in game, I have no idea 19:34:38 <andythenorth> presumably some subtype refit bollocks :) 19:35:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: still want this? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3914 19:36:32 <Alberth> you auto-buy a new vehicle a little sooner I guess 19:36:57 * andythenorth leaves that open 19:37:06 <andythenorth> no rationale for closing it, except personal prejudice 19:37:13 <andythenorth> 2513 is closed 19:37:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has a patch for this? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3460 19:37:25 <andythenorth> ‘just use a bridge' 19:37:26 <andythenorth> :P 19:38:37 <Alberth> or a path-finder trick 19:38:53 <Alberth> but not really trivial, I think 19:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> meh, need a new mouse battery 19:39:56 <Alberth> Moving all that copper halfway across the map isn't that easy :p (1650 t/month) 19:42:13 <Alberth> andy, maybe display production rate eg with copper refinery in IAHC, FIRS 3.0.0 alpha 4 ? 19:42:44 <LordAro> https://i.imgur.com/lgLLBVh.png that's a bit better 19:42:53 <Alberth> now I just get a big load at the station, and a high production count at the end of the month 19:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, my road crossing patch should still be "up to date", and the main issue is still upgrading old savegames 19:43:53 <Alberth> LordAro: lol :) 19:44:00 <LordAro> ikr :) 19:44:06 <andythenorth> does it fix the issue Eddi|zuHause ? O_O 19:44:14 <andythenorth> I just closed the ticket as unsolvable 19:44:16 <LordAro> AI integration "tests" aren't exactly the best thing in the world 19:44:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: production rate? o_O 19:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, sort of. but it will also allow rv to crash into trains right in front of them 19:44:54 <andythenorth> ha 19:45:07 <andythenorth> I see no solution when arvs are blocking a crossing 19:45:12 <andythenorth> other than stop the train 19:45:15 <andythenorth> which ain’t happening 19:45:23 <andythenorth> call it realism 19:45:29 <andythenorth> grade crossings are v. dangerous 19:45:37 <andythenorth> YouTube has evidence 19:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my patch will make a rv ignore red crossing if it's already on a crossing 19:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so rv will never be stuck between two crossings 19:46:01 <andythenorth> ok 19:46:14 <andythenorth> and if it’s in a queue of vehicles due to e.g. breakdown? 19:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's fucked... 19:46:32 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/refinery-production.png 19:46:36 <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tws7-8_zGc 19:46:48 <LordAro> Alberth: surprisingly easy to get to work though, just ./configure CXXFLAGS="--coverage" LDFLAGS="--coverage" && make && make regression, then pull the data out with lcov 19:46:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: production is ‘maximum’ :D 19:47:09 <Alberth> LordAro: bice! 19:47:18 <andythenorth> obiwan 19:47:21 <Alberth> andy, you think so? :p 19:47:32 <Alberth> nah oniwan :p 19:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have never considered breakdowns while developing that patch 19:48:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am open to changing that industry text, but we tried lots of variants 19:48:19 * andythenorth looks if any screenshots exist 19:48:44 <V453000> dat nuts 19:49:32 <andythenorth> such nuts 19:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vehicles stuck due to breakdown will need more elaborate traffic handling 19:49:42 <LordAro> deez nuts? 19:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which i don't think the game is ready for 19:52:19 <andythenorth> indeed :) 19:52:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: this one was…interesting http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8362/industry-window-text-5.png 19:53:08 <andythenorth> this was the closest viable prototype http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8358/industry-window-text.png 19:53:22 <andythenorth> there were 16 options tried :P 19:56:32 <Alberth> oh, if it says "supplied"at both, it is at highest production 19:58:27 <andythenorth> yes 19:58:39 <andythenorth> but I _could_ add something to the hint text when it’s max 19:58:47 <andythenorth> like “(achieved)" 19:58:52 <andythenorth> or even just a tick symbol 19:59:14 <andythenorth> or change the text 19:59:25 <andythenorth> “Continue delivering blah blah” 20:00:10 <Alberth> (supplied, rate higher) 20:00:27 <Alberth> (supplied, rate highest) 20:00:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: can you open FIRS feature request :P 20:01:19 <Alberth> ok 20:01:54 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues 20:02:00 <andythenorth> my project was so neat and tidy too :P 20:02:09 <Alberth> wow, just 4 open issues :) 20:02:50 <andythenorth> winning 20:02:51 <andythenorth> somehow 20:02:54 <andythenorth> so this? 20:02:55 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3608 20:03:23 <andythenorth> newgrf authors need to provide 2 buy menu sprites, one for each orientation? 20:07:22 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest2782 20:07:22 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 20:09:59 <Alberth> just draw it in the other direction, would be my guess 20:10:20 <Alberth> ph, buy menu has separate sprites of course 20:10:26 <Alberth> hmm, tricky 20:10:44 *** Gja has joined #openttd 20:10:46 <V453000> LMFAO 20:10:58 <Alberth> most authors won't make 2 sprites I think 20:11:08 <V453000> yeah fuck that :D 20:11:21 <andythenorth> option to provide one, fall back to default flipped 20:11:27 <andythenorth> oh we probably can’t actually flip sprites in game? 20:11:29 * LordAro ponders what else to do 20:11:33 <andythenorth> we have nothing to do transforms? 20:11:35 <V453000> or you can just flip the sprite? :D 20:11:35 <V453000> haha 20:11:39 <Alberth> draw backward :p 20:11:52 <andythenorth> I bet OpenTTD has nothing to do x-scale -1 20:12:17 *** Guest2782 has quit IRC 20:12:27 *** Geth has quit IRC 20:12:33 <Alberth> in SDL where you blit your own pixels? wouldn't bet on that :p 20:13:32 <andythenorth> easy patch? o_O 20:13:41 <andythenorth> doesn’t matter if the lighting is wrong 20:13:55 <andythenorth> in fact there was a request I saw for RTL lighting to come from left anyway :P 20:13:57 <andythenorth> so it’s fine 20:14:12 <andythenorth> RTL should probably flip *all* sprites 20:14:23 <LordAro> haha 20:15:15 <Alberth> we should just paint the entire screen backwards :p 20:16:00 <andythenorth> I considered that 20:16:11 <andythenorth> do the glyphs flip though :P 20:16:43 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:18:07 <andythenorth> oh you poor second-class non OS X users https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3051 20:18:15 <andythenorth> you don’t have scrolling :) 20:18:24 <andythenorth> for once, something is actually better on the OS X port 20:18:49 <peter1138> mouse wheel... is for zooming 20:19:59 <andythenorth> it doesn’t actually work on OS X anyway https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6558 20:20:08 <andythenorth> borked 20:24:20 *** Alberth has left #openttd 20:24:35 <peter1138> nothing works on os x 20:29:01 <andythenorth> NML works 20:29:57 <LordAro> looks like nothing actually uses h_wheel / v_wheel anywhere anyway 20:30:54 <LordAro> possibly 20:31:44 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 20:32:02 <andythenorth> I haven’t imagined vehicles tunneling in roadstops have I? 20:32:02 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1596 20:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: tunneling is a workaround, not a solution 20:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it takes way too long, and only a few vehicles tunnel at a time 20:34:51 <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, patch in 3051 doesn't work anymore anyway, even adapting it to the current code 20:34:55 <LordAro> recommend close 20:35:01 <andythenorth> LordAro: you have close rights no? 20:35:04 <LordAro> oh, wait 20:35:08 <LordAro> those buttons weren't there before 20:35:09 <LordAro> :) 20:35:13 <andythenorth> close some :) 20:35:23 <andythenorth> the worst that can happen is kittens die 20:35:37 <LordAro> i can close as "out of date", right? :p 20:35:40 <LordAro> that seems appropraite 20:35:47 <andythenorth> seems fair 20:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would reject the rejection on grounds of "invalid" as invalid 20:35:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: isn’t building routes to prevent roadstop contention part of the game? 20:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no 20:36:19 <andythenorth> is it a goal to fix? 20:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try a few games with AI that builds roadstops 20:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: watch epic traffic jams 20:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: one problem to solve is bus A waiting at a roadstop, and bus B of a different line/company which will not stop at that roadstop trying to pass 20:37:55 <andythenorth> I could screenshot that in my games, frequently ;) 20:38:05 <andythenorth> I am familiar with the issue 20:38:10 <andythenorth> I just think it’s non-solvable 20:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the other problem to solve is multiple busses of the same route trying to load at the same stop 20:38:19 <andythenorth> also ARVs 20:38:23 <andythenorth> and oncoming traffic 20:38:33 <andythenorth> and the desire to have one way stops 20:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> these are like 3 separate issues, and each warrant an individual solution 20:39:31 *** Progman has quit IRC 20:39:48 <andythenorth> I shall await the closure of the issue 20:40:00 <andythenorth> as ‘implemented’ :) 20:40:25 <andythenorth> it is only 10 years old, maybe it will be done by 2027 :) 20:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: start with overtaking on bridges :p 20:41:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (overtaking can start before the bridge and continue, but not start on the bridge) 20:41:41 <andythenorth> I don’t play much MP, but this seems like nonsense? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4158 20:41:45 <andythenorth> like, why? 20:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in theory, a special user could have "world/deity" mode (like gamescript) 20:44:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Might be useful for fixing deliberate obstructions, but just killing the company should work 20:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but this would be separate from "spectator" 20:44:54 <_dp_> andythenorth, nah it's kind of useful 20:45:11 <_dp_> no idea what he means by set as admin tho 20:45:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: think of creative mode in minecraft 20:45:40 <andythenorth> why not just join the company? 20:45:47 <andythenorth> and delete stuff 20:46:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, it solves most of the problems 20:46:12 <_dp_> but doesn't help with indusries 20:46:18 <_dp_> or if company has no money 20:46:19 <andythenorth> magic bulldozer :P 20:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> cheats don't work in mp 20:46:38 <andythenorth> deity then 20:46:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, I think I'm the only one running servers with magic buldozer :p 20:46:48 * andythenorth leaves it open 20:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> convert all cheats to deity commands? 20:46:58 <andythenorth> it’s a crap suggestion though, if the request is deity 20:47:11 <andythenorth> as in, the actual FS issue is not useful 20:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sometimes people don't know what they're asking for 20:47:38 <andythenorth> I know 20:47:55 <_dp_> also I thing I miss as admin is to grow towns 20:47:57 <andythenorth> if we want to get value from FS suggestions, we should group and rewrite them 20:48:04 <_dp_> coz some bastards like to kill towns :( 20:48:07 <LordAro> 2475 - uh 20:48:14 * andythenorth has actual paying customers who make suggestions 20:48:36 <andythenorth> nearly always useful, but often what is asked for isn’t quite what is needed eh 20:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: those are the worst. because they're paying, they think they have power 20:49:17 <andythenorth> they’re fine, we earn our money by translating what they ask for into a product that actually does what they need 20:49:21 <andythenorth> mostly 20:49:37 <V453000> omg, trying to be proper and use argparse :D 20:49:40 <V453000> probably a bad idea 20:49:41 <andythenorth> _dp_: you want SE tools, but during game? 20:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: uhm, cargodest is dead? 20:49:54 <LordAro> quite 20:50:04 <andythenorth> this is…cute https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4115 20:50:10 <andythenorth> not happening though 20:50:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, some of the SE won't hurt) 20:50:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, never actually used SE though xD 20:50:50 <andythenorth> me neither except to test patches :P 20:51:07 * _dp_ wonders if SE is still broken in citymania client 20:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we have settings to remember faces and stuff, could that also save company colours? 20:51:38 <LordAro> i feel like 2831 was fixed quite some time ago with alberth's gui rewrite 20:52:19 <andythenorth> I don’t understand 2831 20:52:36 <_dp_> oh, I want 4115 too ^^ 20:52:42 <andythenorth> I am closing it 20:52:46 <_dp_> with some fallbacks if it's already taken 20:52:47 <andythenorth> no-one’s going to patch that 20:52:56 <FLHerne> I want that too 20:52:57 <Wolf01> Also I want 4115 20:53:05 <andythenorth> nah, none of you will patch it 20:53:07 <FLHerne> (but dark blue) 20:53:09 <_dp_> so, who's patching? ;) 20:53:19 <andythenorth> also, a current goal is to reduce Advanced Settings 20:53:21 <andythenorth> so why add more? 20:53:31 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think there's some text that's overflowing and being hidden in the money stats page 20:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the issue is 2394323 is abbreviated as 239... instead of 2.39M 20:53:39 <_dp_> hardest part of the patch is probably ui 20:53:39 <andythenorth> I haven’t hit the close button yet. Still writing a nice rejection :P 20:53:51 <LordAro> it occurs to me that i don't remember how to get the cheat menu up 20:53:55 <FLHerne> "reducing advanced settings" isn't a sane goal 20:53:56 <LordAro> so i can't test this easily 20:53:58 <Wolf01> Not as a setting, just saved as preset in config and always loaded on new games 20:54:09 <andythenorth> LordAro: ctrl-alt-c 20:54:14 <FLHerne> Removing/hiding the ones that no sane person has any reason to change is 20:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, i feel like we discussed this in the past 20:54:18 <supermop_> i would 100% use a default CC 20:54:25 <Wolf01> Manager face is already saved, why not colour and name? 20:54:34 <Wolf01> And automatically load them 20:55:01 <FLHerne> ^(better idea anyway) 20:55:03 <andythenorth> LordAro: I can’t trigger truncation or overflow 20:55:04 <supermop_> i guess the benefit is when testing my grfs i can see if they look shitty with cream or some other color i never use 20:55:08 <_dp_> yeah, name too 20:55:40 <supermop_> but in TTO i played green for every game for 2 years, then orange 20:55:44 <_dp_> I'm doing webchat for citymania and it's quite annoying that company name is set only some time after it creation 20:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try a currency with factor >1000 20:56:00 <supermop_> for OTTD i played orange for every game until about 2012, then light blue since 20:56:12 <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, me neither 20:56:16 <LordAro> gonna close as fixed 20:56:28 <_dp_> and I mean even default name, so when create action arrives it's just "Unnamed" 20:56:47 <andythenorth> I’m up to 13 digits 20:56:56 <V453000> omfg my shit works 20:57:02 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it autoresizes now? 20:57:08 <LordAro> yeah 20:57:13 <FLHerne> Have you tried making the window absurdly narrow or something? 20:57:20 <andythenorth> not resizable 20:57:26 <FLHerne> (android phones, portrait?) 20:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not the same thing 20:58:01 <andythenorth> V453000: \o/ 20:58:17 <andythenorth> so I leave 4115 open? 20:58:35 <andythenorth> I had a nice rejection written :P 20:58:35 <Wolf01> Yes 20:58:38 <V453000> =D I wanted ot have it finished this weekend 20:58:42 <V453000> looks like a good friday 20:58:50 <andythenorth> ach 12 more to close 20:58:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's too good to be closed :p 20:58:59 <andythenorth> :P 20:59:16 <Wolf01> _dp_: want to team up for 4115? 20:59:30 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4365 20:59:39 <andythenorth> UI to select the industry layout? 21:00:00 <andythenorth> my comment is outdated 21:00:29 <supermop_> souns handy? 21:00:43 * supermop_ should finish trams 21:01:06 <supermop_> going to be riding the hiroden in two weeks 21:01:23 <supermop_> if i don't get irradiated before then 21:01:24 <andythenorth> people really need to choose the industry layout? 21:01:25 <andythenorth> really? 21:01:38 <_dp_> Wolf01, eh, well, not sure about teeming but I may do a patch someday 21:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in SE it might be valid 21:02:12 * andythenorth leaves it 21:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> think ECS tourist centers 21:02:33 <andythenorth> location history? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3977 21:02:38 <Wolf01> Just fund and remove the industry until you get the layout you want 21:02:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That would have been useful for me, like, twice ever 21:03:27 <supermop_> andythenorth: not really 21:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some game (settlers 2?) had a button where you could go back to the place you were before you clicked on the message 21:03:35 <FLHerne> e.g. this was mildly annoying IIRC https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=176598 21:03:54 <andythenorth> FLHerne: worth it though :D 21:04:00 <FLHerne> I had to keep blowing things up and moving objects around until it looked right 21:04:06 <supermop_> but like it is a pain sometimes when you fund an industry and it chooses some oblong layout that blocks your planned rail line 21:04:23 <andythenorth> tough :) 21:04:31 <andythenorth> lemons, lemonade 21:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: you can force the layout by placing things in the way 21:04:40 <andythenorth> what is this for? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4114 21:04:54 <andythenorth> when I (rarely) play coop MP, I can admin the server 21:04:59 <andythenorth> via irc 21:05:12 *** Gja has quit IRC 21:05:19 <Wolf01> Rcon via client 21:05:37 <andythenorth> how the hell do I admin server from my client? 21:05:40 <andythenorth> there’s no UI for it 21:05:53 <andythenorth> advanced settings are applied to my client, not the server 21:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, the request is to add such an UI? 21:06:17 <_dp_> location history is awesome, I though about doing it too. not quite easy to do it right though 21:06:31 <andythenorth> wtf counts as a ‘location’? 21:06:34 <andythenorth> it’s not http 21:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: viewport 21:06:51 <andythenorth> if I have laggy map scroll, do I get a new location every 16 tiles? 21:07:10 <andythenorth> or only if I click ‘location’ in some windows? 21:07:15 <andythenorth> and is a moving train a location? 21:07:17 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, getting proper locations is a hard part. 21:07:44 <_dp_> andythenorth, but having something to just between parts of map would be very nice 21:07:48 <supermop_> lets play contrarian arguments to prevent andy from closing any issues 21:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> if ((not right-click pressed) and (distance to last location > x) then new_location 21:08:05 <andythenorth> I am happy to have counter arguments 21:08:12 <andythenorth> I closed all the easy ones 21:08:15 <andythenorth> these are hard 21:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> is probably terrible :p 21:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> X should be in the order of one screen size 21:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and right-click should cover other means of scrolling (arrow keys) 21:09:08 * _dp_ has a system for trusted clients to change settings 21:09:15 <_dp_> nobody uses it sadly :p 21:09:21 <andythenorth> :) 21:09:39 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3479 21:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, actions like clicking "jump to <location>" buttons should create a new location for before and after the jump 21:10:08 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:10:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that seems totally non-controversial ;) 21:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> again, considering the X value 21:11:36 <andythenorth> is this solved? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4639 21:11:38 * andythenorth can’t tell 21:11:50 <andythenorth> I don’t play MP much, but sometimes it shows me last-joined server in lobby 21:12:08 <LordAro> i'd say so 21:12:38 <andythenorth> it ends on a thanks, so either massive sarcasm, or resolved 21:12:45 <andythenorth> LordAro: one for you ;) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5018 21:13:01 <LordAro> you already pointed that at me :p 21:13:18 <LordAro> and i already told you it's basically impossible with distros that .gz the zip 21:13:24 <LordAro> and put it in various random locations 21:13:37 <andythenorth> let me paste that on the ticket 21:13:47 <LordAro> ;-; 21:14:14 <andythenorth> rejecting 21:14:22 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I lost the internet 21:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that issue is fun... we constantly complain that people don't read the readme, but at the same time we debate whether it makes sense to make the readme more accessible 21:14:31 <Wolf01> Netflix stopped working 21:14:37 <Wolf01> Web pages not loading 21:14:41 <Wolf01> Only irc works 21:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: sounds like dns issue? 21:14:54 <Wolf01> No 21:15:03 <Wolf01> More like >5s ping 21:15:08 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 21:15:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s great eh :D 21:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> time ripples from last weeks weather? 21:15:39 <LordAro> there are so many issues that make me go "surely that's implemented" and then i check and find it isn't 21:15:49 <andythenorth> yeah 21:15:50 <Wolf01> No, just my ISP waiting to get nuked 21:16:05 <Wolf01> I should phone them and make them aware of their problem 21:16:20 <andythenorth> 8 more to find and close 21:17:18 <Wolf01> andythenorth: do you know we'll open at least 1 task every time the counter gets lower than 500? 21:17:36 <Wolf01> And all with valid stuff 21:17:59 *** debdog has joined #openttd 21:18:12 <andythenorth> the point here is to get it to 100 21:18:18 <andythenorth> and then open valid tasks 21:20:18 <V453000> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8567/test-colours_8bpp.png I would never expect I would be happy when obtaining something like this 21:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: reminds me when i first played with 256 colour mode in pascal 21:21:14 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:21:36 <V453000> haha 21:21:47 <V453000> now I just need to fix that blue indent 21:21:58 <andythenorth> nice 21:24:27 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6590 ? 21:24:38 <andythenorth> stations could just be railtype agnostic when building?? 21:25:11 *** mescalito has quit IRC 21:25:22 <LordAro> that would be better UI, i feel 21:25:45 <LordAro> unless... can you have stations that are fixed to a particular rail type? 21:25:51 <andythenorth> not afaik 21:26:07 <andythenorth> they’re independent parts of newgrf spec 21:26:24 <_dp_> Laedek, vactube should probably have it's own stations 21:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> potentially they could look different based on railtype 21:26:28 <supermop_> there is provision for different station styles by railtype 21:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but i think you cannot restrict the railtype 21:26:38 <supermop_> like vanilla monorail and maglev 21:26:46 <supermop_> which i always found stupid 21:27:05 <andythenorth> can’t close that one then 21:27:14 <supermop_> should be able to have maglev tracks in the old building and vis-versa 21:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> do vanilla stations change look if you convert the railtype? 21:27:23 <supermop_> yes 21:27:42 <supermop_> so seems like it wouldn't be an issue? 21:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably is awkward if you convert only half the station 21:28:08 <supermop_> already is akward when overbuilding half the station 21:28:20 <LordAro> s/awkward/amusing 21:28:30 <supermop_> and suddenly your tensile roof has notion to give it tension 21:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if the question was whether overbuilding an existing track/station should ignore which tracktype you have selected in the gui, then yes, i'm for that 21:28:54 <supermop_> new disaster: train crashed into collapsing station roof 21:29:10 <andythenorth> ping pong orders? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5140 21:29:37 <supermop_> probably a better way to do that but interesting enough idea 21:29:57 <supermop_> B-A might take longer than A-B due to hills or whatever 21:30:08 <supermop_> so not that useful if you timetable 21:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a valid problem, but not an easy solution 21:30:13 * andythenorth often wanted them for ships on long routes 21:30:25 <supermop_> and saving the work in timetabling seems like a big part of the draw 21:30:26 <andythenorth> copy, paste, shuffle, reverse? 21:30:37 <andythenorth> would have to be able to select a range of orders 21:30:40 <supermop_> copy paste orders would be better 21:30:44 <supermop_> yeah 21:30:50 <andythenorth> -shuffle 21:30:55 <andythenorth> why did I type ‘shuffle' 21:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> "auto-fill return trip" button 21:31:04 <andythenorth> request is not for random ping-pong orders :P 21:31:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes 21:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> will create sort-of "implicit" entries 21:31:15 <andythenorth> it’s just a convenience method 21:31:23 <andythenorth> if only we had client-side UI scripting :P 21:31:42 <andythenorth> I think a lot of orders crap could be solved with client-side UI scripting 21:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'd leave it open 21:31:52 <LordAro> 5141 seems closeable? 21:32:01 <andythenorth> nobody would use it of course, just like nobody uses the two scripting layers on the mac 21:32:26 <andythenorth> I wondered if the text could wrap 21:32:34 <andythenorth> I have NFI how the UI works 21:32:42 <LordAro> *magic* 21:32:43 <LordAro> mostly 21:32:53 <andythenorth> close it 21:33:02 <andythenorth> ‘per Alberth’s comment’ or something 21:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that sounds like it's already solved with one of the various rewrites that window got? 21:33:40 <andythenorth> V453000: do you still want this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5363. I think it sucks, for the record :) 21:33:57 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: that's possibly true as well 21:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: anyway, even if it's not, the proper solution would be line-wrap 21:34:45 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: ah, no, apparently not 21:35:30 <andythenorth> hmm, https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5197 21:35:49 <LordAro> fine, 5141 can stay 21:36:02 <andythenorth> 5197 I’m tempted to say ‘get in the sea' 21:36:08 <V453000> I tihnk it makes more sense than sending all trains to depot right now 21:36:15 <V453000> but if it's a problem then meh 21:36:17 <andythenorth> 5197 seems really demanding, faceted crap 21:36:24 <andythenorth> V453000: join the winning side 21:36:29 <andythenorth> close FS issues 21:36:47 <V453000> 'meh 21:36:50 <V453000> 'then :P 21:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's a valid request, but that window is already pretty cramped with features/buttons 21:37:09 <andythenorth> yes 21:37:14 <andythenorth> and magic hotkeys and so on 21:37:17 <andythenorth> so not a goal 21:37:23 <andythenorth> 'orders needs a rewrite’ 21:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so make an "order UI rewrite" task and mark this as "depends upon"? 21:39:14 <andythenorth> I’d soon make a scriptable UI task 21:39:27 <andythenorth> and leave the implementation of all the faceted stuff to individual players 21:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> make "order gui rewrite" depend on that, then :p 21:39:43 <andythenorth> well played 21:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think "offload everything to the player" is a good approach 21:40:45 <andythenorth> only the faceted stuff 21:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make something scriptable, you need a way to easily distribute the scripts 21:41:13 <andythenorth> yes 21:41:15 <andythenorth> bananaramas 21:41:43 <andythenorth> and if there are scripts that ~everyone uses, maybe the affordance gets folded into core 21:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you need an easy way to access the scripts 21:41:50 <_dp_> just let newgrfs do it :p 21:42:00 <andythenorth> that is a car crash idea :P 21:42:04 <_dp_> then you can tell "write newgrfs" for ui requests too 21:42:15 <andythenorth> it could be done :( 21:42:22 <andythenorth> it would not be good 21:42:35 <LordAro> i want to close 5115, but it's the only reference to the fluidsynth patch, which would be useful 21:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and opposing to game/ai scripts, players need to be able to enable/disable lots of ui scripts simultaneously 21:43:08 <andythenorth> they’re independent, and installable 21:43:20 <andythenorth> they appear in lists (drop downs), on specific windows 21:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause> are they really? 21:43:27 <andythenorth> you select one, it executres 21:43:29 <andythenorth> -r 21:43:39 * andythenorth is making it up somewhat 21:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dropdowns? stupid 21:43:51 <andythenorth> based on all the scripting support in other apps that I never use 21:44:02 <andythenorth> how do you choose which script to run if not a dropdown? 21:44:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to have the script define the button layout 21:44:15 <andythenorth> I wondered about that too 21:44:18 <andythenorth> that’s v2 :P 21:44:24 <LordAro> anyone got any thoughts on 4858? 21:44:28 <andythenorth> nice number 21:44:40 <LordAro> i do seem to keep picking the nice numbers 21:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and give it arbitrary control of what happens on button click 21:45:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am +1, write a spec? O_O 21:45:21 <andythenorth> or even o_O 21:45:34 <andythenorth> LordAro: ‘use the admin’ port seems a good answer 21:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't want windows-macro-style "click on this, then click on that" scripts 21:45:41 <andythenorth> and it’s > 5 years old 21:46:03 <andythenorth> so actual scriptable UI, that adds UI elements 21:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: port the game to QT, use their script engine :p 21:46:20 <LordAro> andythenorth: aye 21:46:21 <_dp_> just don't allow unprotected companies :p 21:46:21 <andythenorth> crazy, but why not? 21:46:37 <andythenorth> close that, 4 left to get to 500 21:46:50 <andythenorth> if we rejected Wolf01’s patches... 21:46:53 <andythenorth> that would be 2 gone 21:47:16 <andythenorth> A) wtf is this? B) actually this is why I never use conditional orders https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4889 21:47:19 <Wolf01> I could always reopen them >:) 21:47:23 <andythenorth> conditional orders are stupid 21:47:30 <andythenorth> trains going round in circles 21:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think i requested that same feature 21:48:28 <andythenorth> add a +1 :) 21:48:39 <andythenorth> isn’t this “Don’t use broken AI” https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5837 21:48:53 <andythenorth> I can feel the pain, but really, core isn’t going to be able to help 21:49:09 <V453000> 2min 29s for bridges of 16384 x 3200 :) 21:49:11 <V453000> not too bad 21:49:17 <andythenorth> what was it before/ 21:49:18 <andythenorth> ? 21:49:24 <V453000> I'd guess about 20min 21:49:32 <V453000> will test with old script tomorrow 21:49:38 <Wolf01> andythenorth: after a lot of trials I concluded the best option was to set the vehicle at "load if available" and set the time in the timetable, just for loading 21:49:57 <andythenorth> that’s the only use for timetables, no? 21:50:02 <andythenorth> partial load orders 21:50:07 <Wolf01> Yes, I think 21:50:18 <andythenorth> they’re just badly named, and in the wrong place in the UI 21:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think the scenario i used in my request was: "Goto A (unload all, wait for X days), Goto A (load)" for end-stations so the cargo does not needlessly age 21:50:44 <Wolf01> The problem is: if there is no cargo -> wait 10 days, but if there is cargo -> load and start immediately 21:50:52 <andythenorth> ha nice tactics Eddi|zuHause 21:50:57 <Wolf01> Timetable + full load didn't work 21:51:05 <andythenorth> the problem is worrying about this stuff too much 21:51:15 <andythenorth> if you want 75% load order 21:51:23 <andythenorth> build a 75t train, not 100t train 21:51:35 <andythenorth> it’s like somebody made a fundamental error 21:52:00 <Wolf01> The problem isn't really "I want 75%" but "at least 75%" 21:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've had issues on ship->train transfer stations, where the option was either to have 95% loaded trains wait ages for the next ship to arrive, or have 0% loaded trains leave 21:52:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: me too :) 21:52:28 <andythenorth> I have often wanted partial load orders 21:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this conditional order would solve that 21:52:39 <andythenorth> I am just trying to persuade myself otherwise 21:53:00 <andythenorth> “orders need a rewrite" 21:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "goto A (load if available); if load = 0% goto 1; goto B" 21:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it doesn't need a rewrite 21:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just leaving the station should check whether the next station is the same 21:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (ca. 10loc) 21:53:56 <LordAro> i think 5837 is valid 21:54:10 <andythenorth> oh 21:54:12 <LordAro> i've certainly wanted to mass delete signs before (although not as many as in their case) 21:54:12 <andythenorth> I closed it :) 21:54:17 <LordAro> ;-; 21:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i looked into it once 21:54:30 <andythenorth> UI script :P 21:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't remember why i got stuck 21:54:39 <LordAro> some sort of tile selection would do 21:54:45 <andythenorth> ‘open signs window’, ‘select all’, ‘delete’ 21:54:48 *** perk11 has joined #openttd 21:54:51 <LordAro> haha 21:55:20 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm gonna reopen, i think 21:55:21 <LordAro> :> 21:55:24 <andythenorth> for sign in sign list 21:55:27 <perk11> andythenorth, http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3848 What could be done there is splitting those translations 21:55:27 <andythenorth> click sign 21:55:30 <andythenorth> click delete 21:55:55 <_dp_> mass deleting signs needs network command 21:56:56 <andythenorth> perk11: I know, but Rubidium said no 7 years ago, and nothing has changed since :) 21:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that gs cannot loop over all signs (independent of owner) seems like a missing feature 21:57:27 <LordAro> adding 30 extra strings is the only feasible solution, and that's just not desirable at all 21:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe signs should be cleared on company bankrupcy? 21:58:17 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: "dead" signs probably have some historical value? 21:58:19 <LordAro> maybe? 21:58:26 <andythenorth> blah 21:58:30 <LordAro> although i'm struggling to think of anything right now 21:59:24 <perk11> andythenorth: Well he couldn't believe the facts 7 years ago, but there is still no good translation for both flying and riding 21:59:30 <perk11> :-) 21:59:53 <andythenorth> I can re-open it, but it won’t get done 21:59:57 <andythenorth> it will just be open 22:00:03 <perk11> It will give me hope 22:00:06 <andythenorth> ok 22:00:09 <perk11> Just kidding 22:00:11 <andythenorth> hope is not a strategy :) 22:00:13 <perk11> Do what you think is right 22:00:23 <andythenorth> thanks 22:00:41 <LordAro> perk11: i'd imagine it's the sort of thing where if you can demonstrate that it would benefit more than one language, it might get done 22:00:45 <LordAro> but otherwise... probably not 22:00:59 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 22:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: tbh, rubidiums statement sounds more like an excuse than a reason 22:01:15 <andythenorth> I don’t find fragmenting translations a big deal 22:01:28 <andythenorth> but then again for OpenTTD, I’m privileged :P 22:01:31 <andythenorth> I have the base lang 22:01:33 <perk11> LordAro: I see, don't know other languages that it would benefit, but there should be some 22:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the issue certainly came up in german language as well 22:01:53 <andythenorth> but I write UI code for translated web apps, and I often deliberately split strings 22:02:03 <andythenorth> even though it costs more money when we get them translated 22:02:08 <andythenorth> we get a better result 22:02:25 <_dp_> LordAro, likely also true for belarusian and ukranian, though I'm not entirely sure 22:02:37 <andythenorth> sometimes the translation varies by context, even though word is same in English 22:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 22:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> problem gets worse by english being very simplified grammar 22:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (terrible grammar in that sentence) 22:04:22 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3848#comment14551 22:05:15 <perk11> Yay! 22:06:41 <andythenorth> is GS not just too fricking slow for this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5697 22:06:45 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> (terrible grammar in that sentence) <- it's so simple you can throw here words like that and still understand it :P 22:06:54 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 22:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but that is sort of true for any language 22:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: lots of redundance in language 22:07:38 <andythenorth> I have no idea what this is supposed to be about https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5868 22:09:04 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, GS the way it is now is not suited for callbacks at all 22:09:16 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's too slow even for its own commands 22:09:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: apparently the UFO can pick a vehicle stopped (or is currently) in a depot 22:09:48 <andythenorth> Zuu is trying to suggest alternatives 22:10:00 <andythenorth> but the OP’s request is not implementable 22:10:03 <LordAro> i'd probably call 5868 a bug, actually 22:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: in the early days of computing, Shannon (who basically invented the "compression" field) ran an experiment and wrote a sentence on the wall, abruptly ending it halfway through and check whether the people could finish it for him. by evaluating whether that finishing was correct, he concluded that for every letter, there's about 1 bit of information in the english language 22:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so all the rest is redundancy 22:10:50 <Wolf01> :) 22:12:28 <LordAro> 5309 - won't implement? 22:12:30 <Wolf01> He was right, since every letter could be or couldn't be right for that position 22:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (that is basically why text files can be compressed really well) 22:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that sounds so fake-news-y :p 22:14:11 *** Tharbakim has quit IRC 22:14:18 <andythenorth> 5309 - dunno 22:14:33 <andythenorth> I’ve dm-ed george asking him if all his issues are still valid / wanted 22:14:36 <andythenorth> he has 49 or so 22:14:45 <LordAro> fair 22:15:57 *** Tharbakim has joined #openttd 22:17:09 <_dp_> 5697 reminded me it's a super easy to do patch that allows/denies vehicles for specific companies 22:17:20 <_dp_> bitmask is already there so all it needs is GS api 22:17:24 <_dp_> and network command 22:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i suggested giving GS control over that bitmask 22:18:36 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, I'm sure I suggested it too xD 22:18:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: omg, 501 22:19:06 <andythenorth> mouse pointer? 22:19:25 * andythenorth trying to make sense of https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4637 22:19:30 <andythenorth> which seems to descend into argument 22:19:37 <LordAro> andythenorth: no, the number of issues :p 22:19:40 <andythenorth> ha 22:19:44 * andythenorth dense 22:19:51 <andythenorth> 19 minutes past bedtime 22:19:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: close, i think 22:20:10 <andythenorth> surely this is an OS thing? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5664 22:20:29 <LordAro> any solution would be very platform specific, and SDL doesn't really do it (even on v2, iirc) 22:20:32 * andythenorth thought window/canvas management was handled by OS 22:21:15 <LordAro> it varies per OS 22:21:50 <andythenorth> those should probably be closed as ‘not under OpenTTD control’ :P 22:21:59 <andythenorth> anyone who argues differently can provide patches 22:22:01 <glx> it's also driver dependant I think 22:22:02 <LordAro> and "no sane cross-platform solution" 22:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> re 4637: i think the solution is to have "detachable" viewports 22:22:37 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2733 is nonsense 22:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have two separate windows (of possibly different sizes) 22:22:50 <andythenorth> 2733 can be closed I think 22:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly move ingame windows (like graphs) to the other window as well 22:23:30 <LordAro> andythenorth: probably, yes 22:24:06 <andythenorth> 500 :) 22:24:18 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5664 and https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4637 bother me 22:24:28 <_dp_> 2733 was quite valid tho imo 22:24:33 <andythenorth> I don’t know enough facts to say that stuff is delegated to the OS 22:24:40 <andythenorth> _dp_: have you verified the bug? 22:24:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: close both and open a "detachable viewports" feature request? 22:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd leave 4637 open 22:25:36 <_dp_> andythenorth, no but I always knew one-way roads are useless 22:25:47 <_dp_> andythenorth, unless for hacky things like trapping vehicles 22:26:01 <andythenorth> [shrug] 22:26:04 <andythenorth> they’re one way 22:26:07 <Wolf01> I use them 22:26:08 <andythenorth> not two lane 22:26:17 <andythenorth> they work exactly as expected 22:26:21 <andythenorth> it’s crap 22:26:31 <andythenorth> but that issue won’t get them changed 22:26:39 * andythenorth sad times 22:26:40 <_dp_> andythenorth, eh.. but they look like two lane :p 22:26:48 <Wolf01> It could be solved by overpainting the unused lane :P 22:26:49 <andythenorth> players learn 22:26:56 <andythenorth> it’s an overtaking lane 22:27:16 <Wolf01> Too bad vehicles don't even overtake 22:27:20 <andythenorth> yes they do 22:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and you didn't find a "duplicate" as reason to close it? 22:27:32 <andythenorth> or is that the bug? o_O 22:27:46 <_dp_> they do but very slow :p 22:28:00 <Wolf01> No, because you flooded the game with articulated vehicles which can't overtake :P 22:28:06 <andythenorth> they all go same speed 22:28:12 <andythenorth> so it’s not an issue 22:28:17 <andythenorth> I fixed it in newgrf 22:28:19 <Eddi|zuHause> overtaking works terribly in the game 22:28:20 <_dp_> andythenorth, breakdons? ;) 22:28:26 <andythenorth> I’ve fixed loads of these stupid issues in newgrf 22:28:43 <andythenorth> breakdowns are turned off 22:28:45 <andythenorth> ;) 22:28:51 <andythenorth> fixed that issue too 22:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> because not only with articulated vehicles, but also with crowded traffic, vehicles won't overtake 22:29:00 <Wolf01> The problem raise when you still have different generations running 22:29:09 <_dp_> basically there is no difference in throughput (in one directino) between one way and two way roads currently 22:29:14 <_dp_> which is kinda silly imo 22:29:15 <andythenorth> I introduce most of the generations at the same time Wolf01 :) 22:29:26 <andythenorth> _dp_: one-way was just added for deliberate griefing no? 22:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all in 1600? 22:29:34 <Wolf01> But they don't replace at the same time 22:29:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nice idea 22:29:49 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, works well for that xD 22:30:06 <andythenorth> Wolf01: when overtaking is fixed, we can all have cake 22:30:23 <andythenorth> LordAro: stop at 500? 22:30:29 <LordAro> probably 22:30:33 <andythenorth> I reckon 22:30:41 <andythenorth> Wolf01 and _dp_ can add more for their new patches 22:30:46 <supermop_> heading home 22:30:52 * andythenorth bed 22:31:01 <Wolf01> nn 22:31:07 <LordAro> since my browser doesn't let me look at paste.ottdc.o, can someone tell me whether there's a "raw" url i can get to easily? 22:31:09 * _dp_ secretly planning that whole evening 22:31:32 <LordAro> wait, found it 22:31:54 <andythenorth> this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5987 22:31:57 <andythenorth> could die :P 22:32:28 <_dp_> definitely 22:32:34 <_dp_> it's bad enough already 22:33:25 <andythenorth> closed 22:33:27 <_dp_> i recall someone suggesting bitcoin with a random exchange rate 22:33:37 <andythenorth> ‘too many’ is highly subjective https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5975 22:33:53 <andythenorth> surely that’s just ‘losing’ 22:33:58 <andythenorth> or ‘being crap at the game' 22:33:59 <andythenorth> ? 22:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: having fractional exchange rates might be useful, but constantly adjusting the exchange rates to real world values is surely a non-goal 22:34:27 <andythenorth> isn’t it 22:34:40 <andythenorth> closed 22:34:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, or cargodist 22:34:51 <andythenorth> that too 22:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd even go so far and request the original 1994 game exchange rates be reestablished, undoing any adjustments done in the past 22:35:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: add a feature request :) 22:35:14 <andythenorth> can we also undo inflation, and the smooth economy? 22:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> like, at some point DM:GBP exchange rate was changed from original 4:1 to 3:1 22:35:37 <andythenorth> _dp_: 499, you have a quota of 1 patch :P 22:35:37 <_dp_> andythenorth, leave smooth, undo original one :p 22:35:50 <andythenorth> frosch dislike smooth strongly for some reason 22:35:52 <andythenorth> not sure why 22:35:57 <andythenorth> dislikes * 22:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> smooth economy is incompatible with most newgrfs 22:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> particularly the ones which use production callback 22:36:41 <_dp_> andythenorth, I guess from implementation point it's done quite awfully 22:36:44 <andythenorth> most newgrfs do what they want, ignoring economy 22:37:08 <_dp_> but for gameplay it's like "the only right way to play" imo :p 22:37:17 <andythenorth> Supercheese: but really? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5117 22:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> smooth economy is probably fine, but it should be automatically disabled if newgrfs using production callback is used 22:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not just for the industries that use the callback, but for all industries 22:38:24 * andythenorth closed a “Shunting” feature request 22:38:26 <andythenorth> because no 22:38:42 <andythenorth> another one of these https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6229 22:38:43 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it does too much different thigs, I'd rather split it in a few independent settings 22:39:35 <_dp_> well, I guess, some of them will still need to interact with grfs somehow 22:40:28 <andythenorth> economy script :P 22:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: honestly, touching smooth economy will probably open a bottomless pit of new feature requests 22:40:47 <andythenorth> just throw them down to the bottom then 22:40:49 <andythenorth> :) 22:41:10 <Supercheese> yeah, There's a Patch for That™ 22:41:14 <Supercheese> and that's good enough for me 22:42:14 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, we have andy to deal with them :p 22:42:57 <_dp_> though adding some more sensible options for those settings will probably cover some requests 22:43:02 <andythenorth> thanks Supercheese 22:43:24 <andythenorth> _dp_: just make economy scriptable 22:43:26 <andythenorth> simples 22:43:33 <_dp_> like I rly want completely stagnant economy where production never changes 22:43:33 <andythenorth> be done by Tuesday 22:43:43 <andythenorth> newgrf ;) 22:44:06 <andythenorth> are signals for bridges and tunnels ever or never? 22:44:07 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4196 22:44:16 <andythenorth> apaprently there’s a super-awesome patch for it 22:44:24 <andythenorth> maintained since 2009, seems to still be working 22:44:25 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, cloning all industry grfs 22:44:30 <_dp_> thanks but no 22:44:34 <andythenorth> _dp_: sounds crap 22:44:46 <andythenorth> but industry grfs ignore economy anyway 22:44:51 <andythenorth> so what to do what to do :) 22:45:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, that's one of reasons i still haven't done a patch 22:45:57 <_dp_> andythenorth, adding "stable god dammit" is probably a bad option... 22:46:02 <andythenorth> if there was economy script, I would make FIRS primaries listen to it 22:46:26 <andythenorth> I would want it to set a production level byte either per tile, or per town 22:46:37 <andythenorth> that then hooks into standard production behaviour 22:46:47 <andythenorth> and player can boost with supplies 22:47:20 <LordAro> there do seem to be quite a lot of little patches just sitting around that, to my eyes, look perfectly valid for merging 22:47:30 <andythenorth> alternatively, economy could set the production level directly in the industry 22:47:32 <andythenorth> crazy talk 22:47:51 <andythenorth> LordAro: I can’t judge quality, but yes, there seemed to be a lot 22:48:32 <andythenorth> one option is fork on github, merge them in one at a time, get TB to hook it up to a build (or you Circle build) 22:48:37 <andythenorth> then get players to test them 22:48:49 <andythenorth> or do blocks 22:48:54 <andythenorth> 5 at a time :P 22:49:14 <andythenorth> or just get them reviewed by someone who can review, and put them in trunk :P 22:49:33 <andythenorth> corrupt a few savegames :) 22:49:51 <_dp_> if something fits cm client I can merge it there first 22:50:01 <_dp_> there seem to be some people still using it) 22:51:32 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 22:51:54 <LordAro> andythenorth: hehe 22:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the general idea of signals on bridges is a yes, the hackalittlebit approach is definitely a no 22:56:37 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 22:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the hackalittlebit approach is too narrow, and would block a broader solution 23:00:20 <LordAro> doesn't the "proper approach" require that mythical new map array though? 23:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> probably 23:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> which brings us to the topic of cirdan... 23:01:27 <LordAro> didn't michi start one? 23:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sure... 23:03:34 <andythenorth> bed 23:03:35 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:05:34 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:06:00 <LordAro> urgh, all these lovely patches tied up in patchpacks 23:06:27 <LordAro> just need more people to go through and separate out features and tidy up patches 23:06:34 <LordAro> and people that can actually merge 23:06:44 <LordAro> but we've had this conversation already 23:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> we've had that discussion multiple times before. often patch authors think having their patch included in a patchpack is a jumping ground for making it into trunk, when it's often the opposite 23:10:30 <LordAro> yeah 23:11:09 <LordAro> in a perfect world, it probably would be 23:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of patches died in patchpacks because no effort was done to maintain it separately, and actually clean it up for trunk merging 23:12:14 <LordAro> there's also the issue where many patches are split up into the nice sections the devs like, but they're just too large for the devs to properly review them 23:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> while the patchpack version was buried under layers and layers of further contamination from ultimately unmaintainable merging 23:12:19 <LordAro> so they just sit there 23:12:47 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which is why i like the look of juanjo's stuff, given they've got things in fairly nice separate commits already 23:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i've really not followed any patchpacks in like 5 years 23:16:09 *** Laedek has quit IRC 23:16:36 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 23:26:34 *** supermop has joined #openttd 23:31:01 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 23:39:47 <Wolf01> 'night 23:39:50 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:43:15 *** Etua has joined #openttd 23:43:53 <Etua> Hello, why OpenTTD doesn't have it's own repository for backport updates? 23:50:50 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 23:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: openttd has a release branch, and bugfixes are backported to that branch 23:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (currently branches/1.7) 23:57:24 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: I mean if there is a repo with deb files containing newer version than that in my distribution's LTS repo. Did you mean something like that or dev svn branch? 23:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: i meant dev branch 23:59:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: i don't think you can expect a project like this providing repositories for all the distributions out there